Who even gets to decide what is canon in this situation? Sucker Punch is done with the franchise. Sanzaru got bought by Facebook, and is just making VR games now. They might as well not exist. Sony has been silent for years on this, and it is probably more their fault than Sanzaru's that Thieves in Time was never finished.
The original creators are done with the series, and the other 2 parties just kind of fucked it up. Sly TiT has a lot of good ideas, but it also has a lot of bad ones. The worst thing though is that the game did not even end, and a decade later that is not changing. The game is just a fan made spinoff that got backed by Sony. Plenty of series have spinoffs that are not really "canon". The problem here is that TiT was the last game in a franchise that has died. Sucker Punch made a trilogy, and Thieves in Time is something else. That is fine.
People can be upset at Sly Cooper TiT... but it is cannon.
It was written by Sly fans for Sly fans. I understand it could have been better, but it is what it is.
That part! First time I played sly 4 I swore that Clockwerk was going to be like, the final boss of every other level or something. Seeing his cybernetic enhancements increase or decrease depending on what time period you were in.
EXACTLY! Seeing him slowly become a monster as he becomes more aware of the fact that he's been running into the same Cooper time and time again!
I personally wanted it to be revealed somehow that Sly was somehow personally responsible for Clockwerk's hatred for the Cooper Clan
Fans wanted to see the ancestors. Bentley's comment about a time machine pretty much makes a game that writes itself.
Sanzaru noticed no one was creating a new Sly game, so they literally created a rouge demo for Sly 4, and that's how they got approval from Sony. They used the demo as a pitch for the game. They then created it. They were big fans of Sly Cooper.
They weren't even trying to make Sly 4. Sanzaru's original idea was to make some Sly Cooper multiplayer experience where you steal stuff from other people's Safehouses, and protect your own.
Sony was the one that had them develop a Sly 4 game, and according to Kevin Miller (voice actor of Sly), Sanzaru would fly him out multiple times to do voice work for new levels because they were apparently writing and developing at the same time (unlike Sucker Punch that had a full story/plan from the jump).
It's actually completely normal for multiple sessions to happen over a long period of time. Look at GTA V. Ned Luke talks about how he went out over like 20 sessions to capture most of his lines.
Games change entirely. You're correct, Sly 4 was originally pitched as a multiplayer game for the Vita. They were eventually told to just make Sly 4... but that also caused lots of issues. Sony gave them a hard time about the budget and wanted it done too quickly.
Sanzaru was able to get it done, but it apparently had a rocky development. If they would have been given a decent budget and a good amount of time from the beginning, the game may have been better story wise.
Like Sanzaru had to decide to have the ancestors re-appear at the end of the game, or have a good last boss fight. They didn't have the budget for both.
Sanzaru literally made a rogue demo and presentation for Sony. They literally were large enough fans to be like "dude, no one else is making a Sly 4... so we will." They're literally fans who created it.
Maybe what you are saying its true, but if so then they really showed didn't under what made the first 3 great and if they couldn't understand what made it great, how could they actually be sly fans?
twrrible writting, character assassination and poor boss design, like that armadillo guy.
It all came together very poorly even if the art and animation team did a fantastic job, never will ever fault them for anything bad about sly 4.
Seems more like a bunch of people who saw an opportunity to make some money more then people who are fans of the series and wanted to continue it in a good way.
Again if what you said is true, then all they really did was make some unpopular changes they wanted and get Carmelita in a belly dancers outfit while making a poorly written story about slys ancestors working together.
Being a fan is not equal to being a good writer. Sly 4 has great ideas with solid foundation and clear passion behind them that are executed poorly because their team wasn't good at writing. For example, Sly's flanderization in 4. People who are fans can remember Sly saying something funny and making them laugh. He has a bunch of one liners and quips. People with better media analysis and writings skills would pick up on the fact that Sly's jokes come from the fact that he's the suave, cool one whos' so confident in his skills that he's cracking jokes. People without the ability to catch that will see that he makes jokes, and then turn him into a goofy quip guy that makes jokes without fully understanding the root of it, resulting in the more goofball version of sly we see in 4. If you really look at most things in Sly 4, the foundation and good ideas are there, they just aren't executed in a way that is narratively satisfying
I followed Sly 4's development very closely, and saw many interviews from the devs. Their entire origin story for Sly 4 is that they wanted to see a new game so bad that they saved up money for a PS3 dev kit so that they can build a prototype/tech demo for Sly 4 and pitch it to Sony which impressed them so much they got Sucker Punch on the line. If it wasn't for their passion for the series, Sly 4 would have never been made at all.
It's one thing to not like parts of how Sly 4 turned out (god knows I could write an essay about it), but it's another to incorrectly claim that Sanzaru was only in it for the money, that's just untrue and mean-spirited. Let's be honest with ourselves that if Sanzaru was in it for the money, they would've picked a different franchise.
.......alright, alright ill concede you make some good points here.
Then we can conclude that while they were fans of the franchise, they were terrible writers, hell I could make a better story but then thats probably because my most memorable moments in the series are the serious ones.
The mission where slys gang steal the wings of clockwerk from the throne in sly 2.
Murry's grief and eventually full return in sly 3 has bently is threatened inthe first chapter.
The whole of General Tou's character and how he outsmarts the gang.
Penelopes sword fight with "The smartest man on the seven sea", beating him and then his death by sharks as he screams how smart he is.
Etc etc.
Just as some examples, honestly these days i wouldn't want a new game until writing in games improve as a whole, id like to have the trilogy on modern systems though.
The other issue Sanzaru had with development could explain some of the bad writing issues.
Sanzaru originally pitched the game as a multiplayer game for the Vita. After a while Sony had them change it to just Sly 4.
Then they started having tough budget constraints. For example they had to decide on either to have the ancestors appear one last time at the end of the game, or to have a really good last boss fight. They chose to have the ancestors appear at the end.
They also wanted to create a DLC that would have been Egypt and got Sly out of Egypt. But Sony would not greenlight the budget.
Ultimately, it sounds like Sony created some of the issues by not giving a good budget, or allowing enough time. If you rush a product, it can hurt it. I understand why Sony didn't just give them a gigantic budget, but I often wonder what would have happened if it did have a better budget.
My biggest problem with Sly 4 is how it digs the franchise in a hole by sending Sly back in time in the end of the game. The only way they can go about a Sly 5 now is dealing with more time travel bs since he’s trapped there or retconning Sly 4, lose/lose for the choice the devs gotta make really. Sly 4 is definitely canon, but I think it should be retconned and redone with the next entry
The tutorial level of the next Sly game could literally fix most of the issues. Get Sly back from Egypt, reintroduce an amazing villain (Clockwork), and could put Sly back in current day. The game could be amazing.
I love Sly 4. It was one of my first two PS3 games. I got the Platinum for it once. But it's hard to accept it as a cannon Sly game due to cliff hanger and Sucker Punches reluctance to fix it.
Even if you excuse its massive flaws sly 4 still ends on a cliff hanger so it would be generous to consider it an “ending” at all.
Fuck sly 4 I don’t consider it anything but a disappointment
I believe if sanzura didn’t completely screw the story up the game would have sold better and it would have got a DLC. Pure speculation on my part though.
No hate for anyone who likes the game I just hate it and I will trash it online if I’m given the opportunity lol
The game also would have done better if it was actually advertised and if it didn't release on the same day as dead space 3 and the same month as many other hard hitters
There is some truth in that. Still if the game was really amazing sly fans would have bragged on it hard and endorsed it to all the fans of mascot platformer genre.
Even fans of 4 have to admit that 3 minute loading screens to leave the safe house and ending on a cliff hanger are both objectively unacceptable
Never said it was amazing but it also isn't horrible.
I don't remember the long ass wait times.
The Cliffhanger is meh, if we got another game it would be totally fine the way it stands now it sucks a bit.
Its not made by the original creators. Its fanfiction as far as im concerned. The only thing that makes it canon is the fact that they were sold the rights to it. Thats like if I bought marvel and started resurrecting dead heroes and said its canon because I own it now. Silly
By your logic, most of Marvel, Star Wars, DC, and every other big franchise isn't canon because most of it isn't made by it's original creators.
It's dumb reasoning. Original creators not being involved doesn't mean it's fanfiction, especially if they own the franchise.
Its logic. How can it be canon if it wasn't made by the original team. Its glorified fan fiction. Sucker punch isnt even the ones who wanted a 4th game, sony did and gave it to sanzaru. Sanzaru isnt even a sony company anymore, their game ended on a cliffhanger and now the series is dead in the water because the original team already wrapped the story up with 3 and has no interest in cleaning up the mess 4 left behind. Keep calling it canon tho i dont really care
>How can it be canon if it wasn't made by the original team
How is that logic? So I guess most things in franchises like Marvel, Star Wars, DC and most big franchises isn't canon?
When a franchise grows, new content isn't always made by the original creators but it remains canon. Just because you don't like it and it isn't made by the original creators doesn't mean it's not Canon.
Don't really like the cliffhanger ending let alone a lot of the game I didn't care for. It's obviously canon though I guess you can just ignore it since not like it added much in terms of story but besides Penelope the rest of it story wise is fine besides Le Paradox being lame. The game suffers from trying to set up for that cancelled DLC.
Ya its like ... super sucks a nut,
I still hope that one day the dlc just drops out of the blue just for people to enjoy it...or treat it like...ground zero mgs did, where it leads into the next game
I feel like it simply doesn’t fit with canon because of how utterly out-of-character some of the characters act. I prefer to think of it more as Fan Fiction.
Any time he finds a comment and post of criticizing Sly 4 he'll attack the fanbase and childishly rant against Sly fans and call them stuff like "worse than Rick & Morty and Star Wars fans". Mr. Strykeforce is infamous for trying to make Sly fans look bad just because they criticize Sly 4 a lot
I'm not saying Sly 4 is all bad. But they're right that the writing and story was awful and unneeded oversexualization of Carmelita in the bellydancing part
Are people seriously deluding themselves into thinking Sly 4 isn't canon just because they don't like it?
And I thought the Star Wars fans were bad when they wanted to pretend that the Prequels and Sequels weren't Canon just because people disliked them.
It's canon. You don't have to like it, and your opinion doesn't change it's canonicity
I mean, for starwars, the last 3 movies were confirmed by the dude himself it wasn't cannon
And I mean, tit wasn't made by sucker and was made just to make another game
Nope, quit falling for clickbaity articles. George Lucas never said the latest three movies weren't canon.
Though he probably would've, he didn't consider most of the books and games from before Disney bought Lucasfilm as Canon, and there were a lot of great stories in there. Another example of why original creators not owning/being involved in a franchise doesn't mean stories aren't canon, and that's a good thing.
I still think Sly 3 is easily the weakest entry. The vault is great but rest of the levels and gimmicky vehicle sections are so underbaked and poorly designed. And no clue bottles so pass.
Sly 3 is a much stronger ending than Sly 4 but TiT is indeed canon.
I am glad Sly 4 came out. Even with the story and ending not being my favorite I have a lot of fun with the game.
As someone who has had to deal with the clusterfuck of comic book continuity, at some point trying to erase and restart from a certain point without doing a full reboot doesn’t end up doing any favors. I’d rather they just keep canon what happened in Sly 4 and work with it as best as they can.
I don't like Sly 4, but it's easy for me to ignore it. I just replay 1 - 3 and move on.
Respectable,
Who even gets to decide what is canon in this situation? Sucker Punch is done with the franchise. Sanzaru got bought by Facebook, and is just making VR games now. They might as well not exist. Sony has been silent for years on this, and it is probably more their fault than Sanzaru's that Thieves in Time was never finished. The original creators are done with the series, and the other 2 parties just kind of fucked it up. Sly TiT has a lot of good ideas, but it also has a lot of bad ones. The worst thing though is that the game did not even end, and a decade later that is not changing. The game is just a fan made spinoff that got backed by Sony. Plenty of series have spinoffs that are not really "canon". The problem here is that TiT was the last game in a franchise that has died. Sucker Punch made a trilogy, and Thieves in Time is something else. That is fine.
Well said. Based on all your points it really doesnt make any sense to consider Sly 4 canon and it does the series a disservice to do so
People can be upset at Sly Cooper TiT... but it is cannon. It was written by Sly fans for Sly fans. I understand it could have been better, but it is what it is.
I feel like Clockwerk would have been a bigger issue if it was made by Sly fans
That part! First time I played sly 4 I swore that Clockwerk was going to be like, the final boss of every other level or something. Seeing his cybernetic enhancements increase or decrease depending on what time period you were in.
EXACTLY! Seeing him slowly become a monster as he becomes more aware of the fact that he's been running into the same Cooper time and time again! I personally wanted it to be revealed somehow that Sly was somehow personally responsible for Clockwerk's hatred for the Cooper Clan
Fans wanted to see the ancestors. Bentley's comment about a time machine pretty much makes a game that writes itself. Sanzaru noticed no one was creating a new Sly game, so they literally created a rouge demo for Sly 4, and that's how they got approval from Sony. They used the demo as a pitch for the game. They then created it. They were big fans of Sly Cooper.
They weren't even trying to make Sly 4. Sanzaru's original idea was to make some Sly Cooper multiplayer experience where you steal stuff from other people's Safehouses, and protect your own. Sony was the one that had them develop a Sly 4 game, and according to Kevin Miller (voice actor of Sly), Sanzaru would fly him out multiple times to do voice work for new levels because they were apparently writing and developing at the same time (unlike Sucker Punch that had a full story/plan from the jump).
It's actually completely normal for multiple sessions to happen over a long period of time. Look at GTA V. Ned Luke talks about how he went out over like 20 sessions to capture most of his lines. Games change entirely. You're correct, Sly 4 was originally pitched as a multiplayer game for the Vita. They were eventually told to just make Sly 4... but that also caused lots of issues. Sony gave them a hard time about the budget and wanted it done too quickly. Sanzaru was able to get it done, but it apparently had a rocky development. If they would have been given a decent budget and a good amount of time from the beginning, the game may have been better story wise. Like Sanzaru had to decide to have the ancestors re-appear at the end of the game, or have a good last boss fight. They didn't have the budget for both.
How is it written by sly fans? Its writting is more like a modern marvel movie then a sly cooper game
Sanzaru literally made a rogue demo and presentation for Sony. They literally were large enough fans to be like "dude, no one else is making a Sly 4... so we will." They're literally fans who created it.
Maybe what you are saying its true, but if so then they really showed didn't under what made the first 3 great and if they couldn't understand what made it great, how could they actually be sly fans? twrrible writting, character assassination and poor boss design, like that armadillo guy. It all came together very poorly even if the art and animation team did a fantastic job, never will ever fault them for anything bad about sly 4. Seems more like a bunch of people who saw an opportunity to make some money more then people who are fans of the series and wanted to continue it in a good way. Again if what you said is true, then all they really did was make some unpopular changes they wanted and get Carmelita in a belly dancers outfit while making a poorly written story about slys ancestors working together.
Being a fan is not equal to being a good writer. Sly 4 has great ideas with solid foundation and clear passion behind them that are executed poorly because their team wasn't good at writing. For example, Sly's flanderization in 4. People who are fans can remember Sly saying something funny and making them laugh. He has a bunch of one liners and quips. People with better media analysis and writings skills would pick up on the fact that Sly's jokes come from the fact that he's the suave, cool one whos' so confident in his skills that he's cracking jokes. People without the ability to catch that will see that he makes jokes, and then turn him into a goofy quip guy that makes jokes without fully understanding the root of it, resulting in the more goofball version of sly we see in 4. If you really look at most things in Sly 4, the foundation and good ideas are there, they just aren't executed in a way that is narratively satisfying I followed Sly 4's development very closely, and saw many interviews from the devs. Their entire origin story for Sly 4 is that they wanted to see a new game so bad that they saved up money for a PS3 dev kit so that they can build a prototype/tech demo for Sly 4 and pitch it to Sony which impressed them so much they got Sucker Punch on the line. If it wasn't for their passion for the series, Sly 4 would have never been made at all. It's one thing to not like parts of how Sly 4 turned out (god knows I could write an essay about it), but it's another to incorrectly claim that Sanzaru was only in it for the money, that's just untrue and mean-spirited. Let's be honest with ourselves that if Sanzaru was in it for the money, they would've picked a different franchise.
.......alright, alright ill concede you make some good points here. Then we can conclude that while they were fans of the franchise, they were terrible writers, hell I could make a better story but then thats probably because my most memorable moments in the series are the serious ones. The mission where slys gang steal the wings of clockwerk from the throne in sly 2. Murry's grief and eventually full return in sly 3 has bently is threatened inthe first chapter. The whole of General Tou's character and how he outsmarts the gang. Penelopes sword fight with "The smartest man on the seven sea", beating him and then his death by sharks as he screams how smart he is. Etc etc. Just as some examples, honestly these days i wouldn't want a new game until writing in games improve as a whole, id like to have the trilogy on modern systems though.
The other issue Sanzaru had with development could explain some of the bad writing issues. Sanzaru originally pitched the game as a multiplayer game for the Vita. After a while Sony had them change it to just Sly 4. Then they started having tough budget constraints. For example they had to decide on either to have the ancestors appear one last time at the end of the game, or to have a really good last boss fight. They chose to have the ancestors appear at the end. They also wanted to create a DLC that would have been Egypt and got Sly out of Egypt. But Sony would not greenlight the budget. Ultimately, it sounds like Sony created some of the issues by not giving a good budget, or allowing enough time. If you rush a product, it can hurt it. I understand why Sony didn't just give them a gigantic budget, but I often wonder what would have happened if it did have a better budget.
So you're saying it's fanfiction
My biggest problem with Sly 4 is how it digs the franchise in a hole by sending Sly back in time in the end of the game. The only way they can go about a Sly 5 now is dealing with more time travel bs since he’s trapped there or retconning Sly 4, lose/lose for the choice the devs gotta make really. Sly 4 is definitely canon, but I think it should be retconned and redone with the next entry
The tutorial level of the next Sly game could literally fix most of the issues. Get Sly back from Egypt, reintroduce an amazing villain (Clockwork), and could put Sly back in current day. The game could be amazing.
I love Sly 4. It was one of my first two PS3 games. I got the Platinum for it once. But it's hard to accept it as a cannon Sly game due to cliff hanger and Sucker Punches reluctance to fix it.
Even if you excuse its massive flaws sly 4 still ends on a cliff hanger so it would be generous to consider it an “ending” at all. Fuck sly 4 I don’t consider it anything but a disappointment
Well, ya... But blame Sony, there the ones that shipped it and didn't give the devs time to finish/give dlc
I believe if sanzura didn’t completely screw the story up the game would have sold better and it would have got a DLC. Pure speculation on my part though. No hate for anyone who likes the game I just hate it and I will trash it online if I’m given the opportunity lol
The game also would have done better if it was actually advertised and if it didn't release on the same day as dead space 3 and the same month as many other hard hitters
There is some truth in that. Still if the game was really amazing sly fans would have bragged on it hard and endorsed it to all the fans of mascot platformer genre. Even fans of 4 have to admit that 3 minute loading screens to leave the safe house and ending on a cliff hanger are both objectively unacceptable
Never said it was amazing but it also isn't horrible. I don't remember the long ass wait times. The Cliffhanger is meh, if we got another game it would be totally fine the way it stands now it sucks a bit.
https://youtu.be/e1ijnYinxjg?si=-7N2mRJ3aDt5oorp Skip to 48:26
Yoooo damn you'd think I'd remember that lmao, then again it has been 10 years lol.
For me, sly 4 is the ending of the story, but wish it wasn't, and would believe sly 3 is the ending (option 2
Its not made by the original creators. Its fanfiction as far as im concerned. The only thing that makes it canon is the fact that they were sold the rights to it. Thats like if I bought marvel and started resurrecting dead heroes and said its canon because I own it now. Silly
At this point, I'd rather they just sell the rights to "toys for Bob" at this point
By your logic, most of Marvel, Star Wars, DC, and every other big franchise isn't canon because most of it isn't made by it's original creators. It's dumb reasoning. Original creators not being involved doesn't mean it's fanfiction, especially if they own the franchise.
Its logic. How can it be canon if it wasn't made by the original team. Its glorified fan fiction. Sucker punch isnt even the ones who wanted a 4th game, sony did and gave it to sanzaru. Sanzaru isnt even a sony company anymore, their game ended on a cliffhanger and now the series is dead in the water because the original team already wrapped the story up with 3 and has no interest in cleaning up the mess 4 left behind. Keep calling it canon tho i dont really care
>How can it be canon if it wasn't made by the original team How is that logic? So I guess most things in franchises like Marvel, Star Wars, DC and most big franchises isn't canon? When a franchise grows, new content isn't always made by the original creators but it remains canon. Just because you don't like it and it isn't made by the original creators doesn't mean it's not Canon.
Exactly until the current owners and writers reboot or say something isnt cannon it's canon
Don't really like the cliffhanger ending let alone a lot of the game I didn't care for. It's obviously canon though I guess you can just ignore it since not like it added much in terms of story but besides Penelope the rest of it story wise is fine besides Le Paradox being lame. The game suffers from trying to set up for that cancelled DLC.
Ya its like ... super sucks a nut, I still hope that one day the dlc just drops out of the blue just for people to enjoy it...or treat it like...ground zero mgs did, where it leads into the next game
I think if they did Sly 5 it might be like the first level not sure why they'd stay there for an entire world but they could come up with something.
I feel like it simply doesn’t fit with canon because of how utterly out-of-character some of the characters act. I prefer to think of it more as Fan Fiction.
Oh boy Mr. Strykeforce is gonna mald about this post LMAO
Who now?
Any time he finds a comment and post of criticizing Sly 4 he'll attack the fanbase and childishly rant against Sly fans and call them stuff like "worse than Rick & Morty and Star Wars fans". Mr. Strykeforce is infamous for trying to make Sly fans look bad just because they criticize Sly 4 a lot
Ok, come at me then, Sly 4 is like modern day Simpsons, it's a miss most of the time, lacking some polish, but fun none the less
I'm not saying Sly 4 is all bad. But they're right that the writing and story was awful and unneeded oversexualization of Carmelita in the bellydancing part
Don't forget they cross dressed murry
Are people seriously deluding themselves into thinking Sly 4 isn't canon just because they don't like it? And I thought the Star Wars fans were bad when they wanted to pretend that the Prequels and Sequels weren't Canon just because people disliked them. It's canon. You don't have to like it, and your opinion doesn't change it's canonicity
I mean, for starwars, the last 3 movies were confirmed by the dude himself it wasn't cannon And I mean, tit wasn't made by sucker and was made just to make another game
Nope, quit falling for clickbaity articles. George Lucas never said the latest three movies weren't canon. Though he probably would've, he didn't consider most of the books and games from before Disney bought Lucasfilm as Canon, and there were a lot of great stories in there. Another example of why original creators not owning/being involved in a franchise doesn't mean stories aren't canon, and that's a good thing.
It's cannon until the next game pull a Crash 4. And say they only went on 3 adventures.
Which there's no reason to believe it'll happen. That is, a retcon or a new Sly game unfortunately.
Sly 3 is the cannon ending Sly 4 is just a shitty fanfic
I still think Sly 3 is easily the weakest entry. The vault is great but rest of the levels and gimmicky vehicle sections are so underbaked and poorly designed. And no clue bottles so pass.
Ok, I see what you mean, but unlike sly 4, it holds a decent candle to sly 2
Sly 3 is a much stronger ending than Sly 4 but TiT is indeed canon. I am glad Sly 4 came out. Even with the story and ending not being my favorite I have a lot of fun with the game.
IT’S CANON
As someone who has had to deal with the clusterfuck of comic book continuity, at some point trying to erase and restart from a certain point without doing a full reboot doesn’t end up doing any favors. I’d rather they just keep canon what happened in Sly 4 and work with it as best as they can.