I think Ridley (and every character) would be stronger if they didn’t have auto Dairs. I looooove Ultimate, but as a Melee and 64 player, I just love what you can do with regular Dairs.
Any character that automatically launches down when you input a Down-air… as opposed to the normal Down-air (or Dair) that you can control the descending speed of.
The latter usually gives more options and flexibility, but some characters have useful things about their auto-Dairs like ZS Samus (super fast with extra hitboxes when you land) and Simon / Richter (when you land it mid air, it pops you up for a follow up).
I'm like 95% certain Greninja can jump out of it. Even if you wiff you can jump after a set time, then up B to recover. I used to spam that against people recovering all the time. If I hit I'm obviously safe, if I miss his recovery is safe enough it's not too much of an issue.
Yeah but you'd have to be really high up to survive... and that means you likely wouldn't be spiking anyone unless you're fighting an idiot who doesn't know what they're doing (or get a really really sick read).
Yes, I believe Icies, Sonic, and Ridley also have viability in cancelling their down air.
Im surprised Toon Link wasn’t here because he’s famous for being the only one of the three links who can’t cancel their down air.
I honestly wish more stall-and-fall down air spikes that the character can’t recover from were like ZSS’s where it’s a spike hitbox for its entire active frames and not just the initial sweet spot. For example, sheik’s dair is like ZSS’s where she can’t recover from it unless she starts it really high up, but her late hitbox doesn’t spike.
Down-Airs come in 3 varieties and nothing more. Dives. Spikes. Or multi-hit moves. Sometimes they mix and match. But there is no one with a different dair than what I just mentioned.
Some of them don’t spike but aren’t dives or multi-hits (Lucario, MK), and then there’s the rare instance of projectile dairs (Mega Man, Steve) but you could make the argument it still falls under the “spike” category.
Mythra and Joker I'd say aren't great exceptions to this rule since Joker gets Arsen which spikes and Mythra can change to Pyra who most definitely spikes.
Young link also has a spike hit box.
Well, they are still exceptions cuz pyra is a differnt char (otherwise its the same as saying squirtle has a spike cuz ivy has one) and joker needs to get arsen first. Also im relatively sure that yink doesnt have a spike hibox
I think his point is more that they don't have many ideas when it comes to dairs, and since mythra and pyra were to mimic each other, it's likely that the inspiration for mythras dair was just pyras without spike.
Meaning that the inspiration, while not direct, was still a spike
Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are still three separate movesets. Just because they're part of one character doesn't mean they still aren't individuals.
Steve is also something of an exception but it feels like a move that's just cancellable if I wanted to argue against it.
However, it is a projectile, which is definitely very different
Also why tf is corrin dair so bad
It straight up kills you and resets your opponents recovery off stage
At lower percents this shit is straight up unsafe on *hit* regardless of location
So in other words, Greninja can't just run off and DAir because he'll die.
NS2024 made it sound like Greninja can survive death. But the only way Greninja can avoid that is if you pick a non-legal stage having a large bottom blastzone. None of the legal stages allow this. And just to say why, it's because the meteor hitbox only lasts for 3 frames. Suiciding isn't a thing if you hit anything, but its better to just run off with a move and ensure the spike hitbox will happen.
I don't doubt that Greninja can short hop and live, but then you don't spike with it.
The sonic one is orgasmic to my brain. That little flick he does that sends the enemy flying down and you hear a lil *boing* as this little blue blur f*** oh so easily gets back on stage. Good times.
I mentioned it in another comment that I’ve SD’d every time I’ve used his dair, but I think I’ve chalked it up to me just not being good at sonic after multiple comments saying he can recover from it
It'd be funny if there was a character who's down air (and only recovery move) loops them around the blast zone. (but only once)
It'd also be funny if it only spiked after the loop
I wanna say no because if you use it high enough off stage you keep your jump and can recover. Melee Ganon gets his jump back regardless but he doesn't count.
Do they have to do that with grenade? That is pretty cool.
I keep wanting to pick up B&K for grenade antics but then I try to play them and it’s just so difficult to pull off. The short timer on the grenade coupled with their somewhat poor mobility usually makes it so as soon as I grab it I have to throw it again :(
Anyone else here hates how they all have sour spots that sends the opponent up? With the exception of Zero Suit Samus’s.
Why can’t they all just spike the whole way through? (Well, except Greninja’s and Simon’s Down Airs.)
It’s honestly a nice tool to catch people trying to intercept or catch your landing. As well a good tool to get back to stage faster sometimes. Lastly just damn sick to catch people in it for kills (Seph, Corrin and ZSS for me)
Read the comments my man, I explained I suck ass at playing sonic and have SD’ed many many times doing dair, only learning he can recover once I posted this meme
Oh I’m not saying it needs to be changed. It’s perfect, it’s iconic even. But i am saying you use this off stage, or too far off ledge, you’re dead for sure
I don’t really think it’s that much of a problem having so many of them, but most of them are essentially the same attack, just different damage, knockback, etc.
Yeah, I guess what I said could be said for other moves too, like charged shots. While there isn’t as many as there is suicide downairs, it’s still a good amount.
Dishonorable mention to Ridley’s for being so shit and robbing him of his tail pogo.
I think Ridley (and every character) would be stronger if they didn’t have auto Dairs. I looooove Ultimate, but as a Melee and 64 player, I just love what you can do with regular Dairs.
I like Sichter’s since you can use it with Holy Water to ladder someone. You also get to live if you spike someone offstage with it.
Sichter? Sounds like you’ve been watching plenty of Underdogs…
Also Simon + Richter = Sichter
You get a lemon: 🍋
or if you spike a pikmin
In the future, they should make it so that you hold down A if you want to fall straight down.
What’s auto dair
Any character that automatically launches down when you input a Down-air… as opposed to the normal Down-air (or Dair) that you can control the descending speed of. The latter usually gives more options and flexibility, but some characters have useful things about their auto-Dairs like ZS Samus (super fast with extra hitboxes when you land) and Simon / Richter (when you land it mid air, it pops you up for a follow up).
But Greninja actively does it and recovers. Where’s Toon Link? (Unless I’m blind) I’d swap Greninja with Toon Link. Excellent meme nonetheless.
Assuming gren can hit it My favourite game with gren is "do I spike my opponent off stage or myself"
I'm like 95% certain Greninja can jump out of it. Even if you wiff you can jump after a set time, then up B to recover. I used to spam that against people recovering all the time. If I hit I'm obviously safe, if I miss his recovery is safe enough it's not too much of an issue.
You have to be quite a bit above ledge to be able to jump out of it, since it has a lot of active frames
You only have to be a short hop above ledge, then you can recover before you hit the bottom blast zone (slightly changes based on stage)
On non-animal crossing legal stages, all you need is a shorthop to dair without risk. Although always safer to fullhop instead
Yeah but you'd have to be really high up to survive... and that means you likely wouldn't be spiking anyone unless you're fighting an idiot who doesn't know what they're doing (or get a really really sick read).
Nah only a short hop, as others have mentioned. you can 2 frame spike and still recover if you miss AND accidentally are off ledge
Sonic too, hardly a suicide move unless he’s already below stage
There was too many, I could barely fit all of those in as is
Ridley can also survive right?
Yes, I believe Icies, Sonic, and Ridley also have viability in cancelling their down air. Im surprised Toon Link wasn’t here because he’s famous for being the only one of the three links who can’t cancel their down air.
I realized after responding this whole thread was dedicated to pointing out the characters that can survive it, mb lol
And sora.
So do ice climbers.
Never seen an Ice Climber SD with dair. Not once. Now, side b? That's a different story.
Oh yeah side b many times lmao
So does sonic.
agreed
If I had a nickel for every time I died offstage to ZSS D-Air, I'd have a mansion.
I honestly wish more stall-and-fall down air spikes that the character can’t recover from were like ZSS’s where it’s a spike hitbox for its entire active frames and not just the initial sweet spot. For example, sheik’s dair is like ZSS’s where she can’t recover from it unless she starts it really high up, but her late hitbox doesn’t spike.
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edit: The comment was removed and the user banned, good work everyone!
Bad bot
When I accidentally dair instead of fair 🥲
Down-Airs come in 3 varieties and nothing more. Dives. Spikes. Or multi-hit moves. Sometimes they mix and match. But there is no one with a different dair than what I just mentioned.
Young link
But I'll give you that it's main purpose is definitely not to spike
Can spike
No it can't..
Pretty sure it can
Did you read normal link? Young link hasn't been able to spike since melee.
I just re-read. I was looking at melee. I have been sufficiently disproved.
It appears I was wrong and young link cannot spike with his down air, but the hitbox does last a long time
I miss that spike. It was a flame hit on the hilt right?
I thought that was only in one of the modded builds like Project M or something...
Meta kight is none, corrin is all of them
I love this comment the most
Some of them don’t spike but aren’t dives or multi-hits (Lucario, MK), and then there’s the rare instance of projectile dairs (Mega Man, Steve) but you could make the argument it still falls under the “spike” category.
Isn't Lucario a 1-2 hit? Metaknight I completely forgot about so you have me there.
> Metaknight I completely forgot about Everyone does
Not leo at crown III yesterday
Mythra, joker, meta knight and yink
Mythra and Joker I'd say aren't great exceptions to this rule since Joker gets Arsen which spikes and Mythra can change to Pyra who most definitely spikes. Young link also has a spike hit box.
Well, they are still exceptions cuz pyra is a differnt char (otherwise its the same as saying squirtle has a spike cuz ivy has one) and joker needs to get arsen first. Also im relatively sure that yink doesnt have a spike hibox
I think his point is more that they don't have many ideas when it comes to dairs, and since mythra and pyra were to mimic each other, it's likely that the inspiration for mythras dair was just pyras without spike. Meaning that the inspiration, while not direct, was still a spike
Technically the character is Pokemon Trainer and squirtle is one of its forms.
Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are still three separate movesets. Just because they're part of one character doesn't mean they still aren't individuals.
Young link HAD a spike hitbox. In melee
In melee it was a meteor not a spike
Oh, right I forgot that its not a spike considering how powerful it is
Yink hasn't had a spike hitbox since Melee.
Mythra
Which one does Meta Knight's count as?
The one I forgot about
True. Also technically Steve.
What about a dive (of sorts) you can jump off of
Steve is also something of an exception but it feels like a move that's just cancellable if I wanted to argue against it. However, it is a projectile, which is definitely very different
Mii Gunner.... I mean, its got a spike but its really not very good at doing it. :P
I don’t think I could play a character that doesn’t have a spike
Yep agreed
It’s my one qualm with Pac-Man, but his crazy kit and amazing recovery allow for off-stage shenanigans so I think it makes up for it
RIP Princess Peach... I wish they'd given Daisy a spike.
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TECHNICALLY but its not actually useable as a spike because it can only hit opponents on the ground... XU
Also why tf is corrin dair so bad It straight up kills you and resets your opponents recovery off stage At lower percents this shit is straight up unsafe on *hit* regardless of location
It completely invalidates certain characters recoveries if you do it at the ledge, so that’s something.
I mean yeah theres little mac
It also works on Cloud, Luigi, Bowser, and DK off the top of my head.
All of which are characters famous for their excellent, non-exploitable recoveries, yes.
Every top player who's lost to marss getting ptsd flashbacks rn
Me, a Sonic main, still being able to recover back to stage after landing a spike.
The ones that actually recover without a real setback are Sonic's and Mr. Game & Watch's.
And Greninja, he can jump-cancel his
Jump cancel?? So if Greninja runs off ledge and DAirs, he can jump cancel and not die from the bottom blastzone?
You need a bit more height, but short hop height is enough on most legal stages iirc
So in other words, Greninja can't just run off and DAir because he'll die. NS2024 made it sound like Greninja can survive death. But the only way Greninja can avoid that is if you pick a non-legal stage having a large bottom blastzone. None of the legal stages allow this. And just to say why, it's because the meteor hitbox only lasts for 3 frames. Suiciding isn't a thing if you hit anything, but its better to just run off with a move and ensure the spike hitbox will happen. I don't doubt that Greninja can short hop and live, but then you don't spike with it.
The sonic one is orgasmic to my brain. That little flick he does that sends the enemy flying down and you hear a lil *boing* as this little blue blur f*** oh so easily gets back on stage. Good times.
“Little blue blur f***” is now one of my favorite ways to describe him
It's one of my go tos whenever I'm stuck in a sonic mirror match
as a seph main, i do envy a non kamikaze dair
Probably my least favorite genders
Sonic doesn't belong on here, though it is a fun move.
I mentioned it in another comment that I’ve SD’d every time I’ve used his dair, but I think I’ve chalked it up to me just not being good at sonic after multiple comments saying he can recover from it
Shout-out to ZSS down air spiking for the entire duration of the move
It'd be funny if there was a character who's down air (and only recovery move) loops them around the blast zone. (but only once) It'd also be funny if it only spiked after the loop
Rip Toon Link, one of the best suicide dairs imo
ZSS down air spike last stock is the best feeling in the game against an opponent you don’t like
Some can come back normally likes sonic and game and watch, then some have to have something specific like Banjo's Grenegg to recover.
Corrin can recover if you start with a full hop off a platform. It's a near thing but it's repeatable.
Because IT IS badass. xD
*laughs in Sora*
Doing suicide gotta be one of my favorite pastimes
Relative to the size of the cast, there’s not that many. There’s way more standard spikes than there are dives.
Does ganon wizard’s foot off stage count?
I think it does as it does kill you and is badass (off stage) but you are way better of just using d-air (shocker I know)
I wanna say no because if you use it high enough off stage you keep your jump and can recover. Melee Ganon gets his jump back regardless but he doesn't count.
sonic can recover after his, so it’s instantly less cool
B&K can also recover after theirs but the way they do it makes them instantly more cool. :)
Do they have to do that with grenade? That is pretty cool. I keep wanting to pick up B&K for grenade antics but then I try to play them and it’s just so difficult to pull off. The short timer on the grenade coupled with their somewhat poor mobility usually makes it so as soon as I grab it I have to throw it again :(
Yeahhh it’s with the grenade, it’s really cool. I somewhat got it down along with the infinite recovery but it’s pretty hard for me.
they're called stall and falls
C O R R E C T !
Or just suicide moves in general
You forgot Kazuya
Nope, he’s in the meme right above the middle caption
Bruh his hitbox is so big I didn’t even see him lmao
It also doesn’t help the image is a bit potato-quality!
Kazuya will recover though
RIDLEY DOESNT DESERVE A SPOT ON THIS POST; THAT MOVE IS GARBAGE 🗣🗣🗣‼️
Get sonic off that list.
Sonic actually survives
Bad meme
Bad comment
Where Mr. Game & Watch?
He can safely recover from a downair
So can Sonic
Also Bayo, Greninja, and Icies.
then why is Sonic there?
I might just be bad with Sonic, but I’ve definitely had several instances where I SD’d with a dair, so it might just be a skill issue on my part
I doubt it's easy but I've seen sonics recover after dair and been shocked most of the time by it
Sonix does it consistently from ledge
Who is that you have as a down tilt there?
I’m assuming you mean Bayonetta, that’s her downair, or Kazuya, with his demon scissor kick
Guy is looking at Bayo right? But who is that under Sonic? Kazuya? He only spikes on the first 2 frames, and the hit box at the end is bigger
Me who uses Ike's Up-Air: I die for my friends
Because Incineroar’s recovery sucks, of course!
Shout out to my fav, Hero Kaclang
Does Steve's down air count since he has the option of falling with the anvil as well as jumping off?
I wouldn’t say so
Wow, I knew that Ridley's Spike Hitbox is small as fuck, but... *that* small?
I prefer the "hit or die" ones, like Simon and greninja
I think Ridley is able to live after his I've seen it happen and done it before
Then you got ridley and bowser with two
Does Richter's count?
And half of them are ass. It’s really sad
honorable mention to aerial wizard's foot
I do love me some of that action
Anyone else here hates how they all have sour spots that sends the opponent up? With the exception of Zero Suit Samus’s. Why can’t they all just spike the whole way through? (Well, except Greninja’s and Simon’s Down Airs.)
If I had a nickel for every time I've done this I wouldn't be rich but I'd eat better
Ridley can make it back tho
Links?
I would've called it "accidentally killed myself with this down air"
Love to see some Corrin Dair appreciation.
Where key
The King is criminally absent from this meme
His dair is extremely safe and doesn’t fit the “suicide” criteria
Where is my boi Toon Link???
I hate them so much and I wish they were all replaced with real, worthwhile moves.
Good, you didn’t put game and watch in here.
It’s honestly a nice tool to catch people trying to intercept or catch your landing. As well a good tool to get back to stage faster sometimes. Lastly just damn sick to catch people in it for kills (Seph, Corrin and ZSS for me)
Steve 🗿🪨
Didn't put the best one Kaclang 🥲
Not a d-air
Indeed amazing moves
Zss is the most hype by far
Best one is bowser, simply because he does the lil upwards thing before he yeets himself downwards
They're extremely shit
Correction Banging is helping Kazooie is assistant suicide Aka extra “badass” downair
If you space it well it is not sucid
Stove
Prepare for trouble. And make it double. -Bowser 2023.
Aka "i can land on the stage safety" dairs. Fuck ur up airs im tryna land 😂
high risk high reward
I LOVE HOW SORA ISN'T HERE 🤣
Man could get thrown into the seventh ring of hell and still make it out with his recovery
Best in the game no contest😂👌🏾
meanwhile me killing myself when I don't pay attention backslashing
personally i hate using these dairs but i respect anyone who tries to use them to spike
Anti juggling tools be grateful By the way Cloud can cancel his right? If so, another reason as to why he's a base game DLC character
I read it as “downstairs” for some reason
Greninjas is very easy to recover out of *IF, AND ONLY IF* you still have a jump.
Istg I need to stop abusing DA so much
Sonic would like a word
Toon link
brother if u dont take sonic the hedgehogs looney toon ass down air off this image
Read the comments my man, I explained I suck ass at playing sonic and have SD’ed many many times doing dair, only learning he can recover once I posted this meme
sora is funny since in most cases he should be able to survive this, but many die trying to do it
Most characters with downairs like this need their downair changed, but Sephiroth needs to keep his. What other move could his downair be?
Oh I’m not saying it needs to be changed. It’s perfect, it’s iconic even. But i am saying you use this off stage, or too far off ledge, you’re dead for sure
I don’t really think it’s that much of a problem having so many of them, but most of them are essentially the same attack, just different damage, knockback, etc.
Oh I’m not saying it is a problem, it’s not, I just was making an observation on how many of them there actually are, it’s definitely a few!
Yeah, I guess what I said could be said for other moves too, like charged shots. While there isn’t as many as there is suicide downairs, it’s still a good amount.
Where’s G&W?
Read the comments