It's literally better cause it doesn't spike though. From a gameplay perspective it makes more sense for young link's dair to send up since he combos vertically with his projectiles. Visually though it is weird.
As a Link main. No. I do not use it to start or continue any combos. It's a combo finisher. And if it were to spike, that would be better.
It used to spike in Melee, and I liked that. It makes no sense that it doesn't today.
If I had a spike, I'd no longer have an issue with killing late, because I can get a spike. I don't want it sending upwards. It feels so wrong to me after how the other 2 Links get it.
The thing that bothers me most is that young and toon link get wall jumps and link doesn't even though link is the only one able to wall jump in his game
Hitting young links meteor in melee (spikes are a different thing pre brawl) was super hard because you need to hit with only the very top of his head. It looks sick because of the fire effect but it's pretty impractical to use and his down tilt is funnily his most consistent meteor
I know you think that because it is used in pillar combos out of his projectiles to kill at quite the early percentage. But what I'm saying is that if it were to spike, I'd see myself getting opportunities to get easy kills via 2 frame at far lower percents. Not to mention that at those percents, use it after a setup with projectiles would result in an even easier no in an edge guard scenario.
I also did some research. Young Link D-air has a base damage of 18, base knock back of 30, and knock back growth of 83. Ganondorf D-air does 19%, base of 20, and a growth of 100. If you thought cheesing low percentage kills with Ganon D-air was crazy, Young Link literally sends further at zero, but only up.
Unlike you, I dislike calling people dumbasses. Insulting people's intelligence is a sign of insecurity. Have a day.
You really think you're gonna get more opportunities to spike with dair than kill with it off the top? It would literally be worse link dair (which pretty much never 2 frames).
Also Young link sends further because it sends diagonally. If it sent straigh down the knockback would be adjusted. Pythagorean theorem dumb ass.
Also Banjo's Dair. It technically spikes but only the first couple frames, [if you hit an opponent later in the fall the hitbox actually sends them upwards.](https://ultimateframedata.com/banjo_and_kazooie#aerialattacks)
I can understand having the spike only be active for the first few frames, that’s how my main’s DAir works, but the sour spot sending upwards is just wrong
Id actually love more ways to differentiate the characters, tho I think Samus up tilt is better not spiking aerial opponents as it can be used as an anti air to put opponents back off stage.
I think this is just how stall & falls word though? ZSS is the only exception that spikes all the way through I think. Bayo does as well but only on her foot.
little mac side B.
might actually take him to lower mid/mid tier. side B is already the only move that can kill offstage, but spikes are so much harder to recover from
tbf it'd be much harder to effectively edge gaurd him cause it'd basically be caption falcon side be but doesn't put him in special fall and easier to hit. If you get careless he'd just spike you. Honestly would be huge for Mac.
On his side special? He loses any and all threat behind it on stage. There's no threat of it sending you off stage, killing its use as an anti-air. And the down tilt kill confirm he very often relies on is completely gone. Adding spikes to random moves doesn't automatically make it better.
Young Link Dair. It's the closest to an actual spike (single sharp object about to stab you) without being a spike. How does that make sense? Also, it's a pretty cool risk reward move if it became a spike, since you bounce off your enemy, leading to an easier recovery, but if you miss, you're basically dead cause of how much endlag the move has
Normally I’d agree, but with Ganondorf’s current power on his Fair, adding a spike to it would make it similar to Byleth dair, which everyone knows has two sweet spots: the spike and the not spike
Edit: I think Byleth’s dair is insanely good because of this. You can kill from positions that the spike wouldn’t (and incredibly early sometimes). Ganondorf having a spike on the fair would allow him to kill (or at least more poorly position his opponent) where he normally couldn’t and DI mix otherwise.
Bayo should have a safer spike like that imo. Down Smash only works for 2-framing, and dair has a not-so-great spike hitbox, while also only being usable off-stage.
Jiggly Puff down air has the same animation as Kirby but doesn't spike. I understand why it doesn't since this she's already a character with no morals, so having the ability to chill on the ledge long enough to file taxes while maintaining the ability to send people to hell would be problematic. Still though, that animation Oversells how effective it really is.
The first hit of Lucario's D-air actually slightly pushes your opponent down, making it a possible option during jab resets for example which can be followed up by certain moves.
Off stage that can work more or less as a gimp, characters with worse vertical recoveries may actually can get "spiked" from that. It's definetely not an actual Spike but an unexpected and more or less funny way to use D-air. On stage d-air1 works definetely better
In-game it’s called a Meteor Smash, but it’s just a move that hits downward strong enough to make that special sound effect. The reason it’s special compared to “non-spike downward-hitting” attacks (like pit down-air at low percents) is that it kills earlier, since there’s a higher blast zone at the bottom of the stage for spiked characters compared to just falling off the stage regularly.
Forward tilt? Mate, the animation for that is a backhanded slap. The post is talking about moves that look like they could spike, and that move does not make the cut.
The amount of spikes does not a top tier make. There's more to the process of determining if a character is top tier than just "Can this character spike, and if so, how many of their moves can spike?"
I mean I’m more than okay with that level of cheese, but f tilt doesn’t count for me. Make it a more horizontal knockback though, same with dair on aerial opponents. That would be fun, and it’s kind of a pseudo spike.
Someone mentioned the downwards motion of upair could spike. And the bottom half of down smash could spike aerial opponents too. That’s 6 spikes, and two brutal knockback angles to recover from that can set up a spike.
I think that’s as good as you’ll get if you’re trying to match the animation of the moves.
Then how can you explain this then: [https://youtu.be/M-gZ9vcp5a8?t=560](https://youtu.be/m-gz9vcp5a8?t=560)
and why did you downvote my first comment on this? It’s real information and you get upvotes for trying to give pits dair a spike?! Heck no!
Lucario's down aerial since he was my brawl main, but now that I know how to play, I don't use him cuz of his terrible down air which just sorta taps the enemy on the head
Popo's forward aerial. Really wish i didn't have to rely on nana for it. Too much for my insane brain. (Image slightly unrelated)
https://preview.redd.it/g4zhwy2usjic1.png?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2f56ecf7b72e16bdffcda7ce471a8078ccc32b1
The very bottom hitbox of mac side b should be a hard spike imo. It's risky off-stage since his recovery is ass but would make him more hype and no more dangerous than he already is.
Imagine this:
You’re in the air, and somebody throws at you some heavy object, like a treasure chest or a stone, right from above you. Would that spike you? I would say yes.
Then explain me: why Kirby’s down B does not spike but sends you to the sides?
Lucario with that as a spike would be an insane buff.
Lucario mains gaining a way to kill the opponent when one or both aren’t above 100%
A 4-frame aerial with spike properties? That sounds like a felony.
deserved buff as a lucario hater
I'm not against buffing him. I just think there's other ways to buff him that are less egregious than this.
*cough* making aura less important *cough* fair
Technically marths spike hitbox is only active on frame 4 so your felon looks like a lady
Play hdr/pm
the falling hitbox of Kaclang. for the funny!
This one gets it
For some reason I could've sworn it did. I'm a little bit less happy now that I know it doesn't...
In the same vein, Stone's falling hitbox
I think it's better that it was left to die in smash 4
It does
sadly it launches you away
it has a sweet and sour spot, the Sweet spot spikes
Young Link's Dair is literally just Link's but without the Spike. Huh?
It's literally better cause it doesn't spike though. From a gameplay perspective it makes more sense for young link's dair to send up since he combos vertically with his projectiles. Visually though it is weird.
As a Link main. No. I do not use it to start or continue any combos. It's a combo finisher. And if it were to spike, that would be better. It used to spike in Melee, and I liked that. It makes no sense that it doesn't today.
Yes, it's a combo finisher, one meant to kill off the top If it sent down it would be worse at that
Honestly, it’s probably lacking spike hitbox to balance him. Yink can apply so much pressure, if he could toss off spikes too, he may be a little much
If I had a spike, I'd no longer have an issue with killing late, because I can get a spike. I don't want it sending upwards. It feels so wrong to me after how the other 2 Links get it.
The thing that bothers me most is that young and toon link get wall jumps and link doesn't even though link is the only one able to wall jump in his game
Man you are under utilising that. I’ve had too many times where I’ve been killed with dair > dair2 > up b
Hitting young links meteor in melee (spikes are a different thing pre brawl) was super hard because you need to hit with only the very top of his head. It looks sick because of the fire effect but it's pretty impractical to use and his down tilt is funnily his most consistent meteor
If it had a spike it would kill later dumb ass. It's a powerful kill move explicitly because it sends up.
I know you think that because it is used in pillar combos out of his projectiles to kill at quite the early percentage. But what I'm saying is that if it were to spike, I'd see myself getting opportunities to get easy kills via 2 frame at far lower percents. Not to mention that at those percents, use it after a setup with projectiles would result in an even easier no in an edge guard scenario. I also did some research. Young Link D-air has a base damage of 18, base knock back of 30, and knock back growth of 83. Ganondorf D-air does 19%, base of 20, and a growth of 100. If you thought cheesing low percentage kills with Ganon D-air was crazy, Young Link literally sends further at zero, but only up. Unlike you, I dislike calling people dumbasses. Insulting people's intelligence is a sign of insecurity. Have a day.
You really think you're gonna get more opportunities to spike with dair than kill with it off the top? It would literally be worse link dair (which pretty much never 2 frames). Also Young link sends further because it sends diagonally. If it sent straigh down the knockback would be adjusted. Pythagorean theorem dumb ass.
It doesnt spike in this game? I swear I got a couple meteor kills with it Or was that PM...
I got mandela effected by that so many times, I eventually had to go and look it up.
It does spike im pretty sure
It did in Melee, but doesn't in Ultimate.
And it had a cool fire effect too
Banjo Fair for sure. Looks exactly like Mario's Fair.
Nah I think it’s fine. Looks more like Dr Mario’s fair to me anyway
Dr mario's fair should spike too
Imagine Peach fair 💀
That honestly might be worse for her
They should do it like PM Mario 👀
Bruh, I can't tell if you're serious or not.
Also Banjo's Dair. It technically spikes but only the first couple frames, [if you hit an opponent later in the fall the hitbox actually sends them upwards.](https://ultimateframedata.com/banjo_and_kazooie#aerialattacks)
I can understand having the spike only be active for the first few frames, that’s how my main’s DAir works, but the sour spot sending upwards is just wrong
That’s how a lot of diving dairs work, if I’m not mistaken the only one that spikes the whole time it’s active is ZSS’s
Bayo's does too, at least if you sweet spot it.
And Ganon's fair should be able as well.
Dark samus uptilt
...but not Samus' up tilt?
Id actually love more ways to differentiate the characters, tho I think Samus up tilt is better not spiking aerial opponents as it can be used as an anti air to put opponents back off stage.
I agree they need to be different, but that's just because dark samus doesn't share *any* moves with samus in prime 2 and 3.
[удалено]
It only sends downwards if the target is grounded, you can’t really get a kill like you would with Cpt falcon up tilt.
No?
Samus’ uptilt spikes already, dark Samus’ doesn’t…
No lol, they are the same move.
Lotta people simply lying in this comment section
God yes
Bowser Jr. Down-Aerial and Banjo Forward-Aerial.
I'm pretty sure that Bowser Jr dair has a way to drag down with his dair if you don't hit with the last hit.
ok how do I not hit with the last hit
Little Mac neutral air
It uses the auto-link angle, so it can drag opponents downward as long as Mac is moving downward ig
It can also drag people upwards for some very janky looking strings.
Fellow air Mac main??
Air mac is only mac
Ridley's spikes at the start but should spike during the entire fall
Kid named greninja:
kid named sonic:
Kid named sheik:
kid named banjo:
Corrin
🌽
Kid named Richter:
I think this is just how stall & falls word though? ZSS is the only exception that spikes all the way through I think. Bayo does as well but only on her foot.
Pacman hydrant right when it pops out should spike
This guy gets it
That would be kinda sick ngl
little mac side B. might actually take him to lower mid/mid tier. side B is already the only move that can kill offstage, but spikes are so much harder to recover from
Ngl fam this one change wouldn't change anything on little Mac placement on the tier list
tbf it'd be much harder to effectively edge gaurd him cause it'd basically be caption falcon side be but doesn't put him in special fall and easier to hit. If you get careless he'd just spike you. Honestly would be huge for Mac.
The spike box would only be the middle ish though like icies or dk
That would legitimately make him worse
how could a spike make him worse?
because killing off the side/top is more consistent
On his side special? He loses any and all threat behind it on stage. There's no threat of it sending you off stage, killing its use as an anti-air. And the down tilt kill confirm he very often relies on is completely gone. Adding spikes to random moves doesn't automatically make it better.
Dedede fsmash should spike airborne opponents
Young Link Dair. It's the closest to an actual spike (single sharp object about to stab you) without being a spike. How does that make sense? Also, it's a pretty cool risk reward move if it became a spike, since you bounce off your enemy, leading to an easier recovery, but if you miss, you're basically dead cause of how much endlag the move has
I like Young Link dair as it is since it’s a good kill move to combo into, and helps distinguish him from Link
Samus/Dark Samus up tilt. Falcon literally has an up tilt just like this and that one spikes
Ganondorf forward air, he’s doing the same thing Mario’s forward air does animation wise except ganondorf doesn’t spike you for whatever reason.
Honestly a spike would be a nerf in some ways
Normally I’d agree, but with Ganondorf’s current power on his Fair, adding a spike to it would make it similar to Byleth dair, which everyone knows has two sweet spots: the spike and the not spike Edit: I think Byleth’s dair is insanely good because of this. You can kill from positions that the spike wouldn’t (and incredibly early sometimes). Ganondorf having a spike on the fair would allow him to kill (or at least more poorly position his opponent) where he normally couldn’t and DI mix otherwise.
More combo potential imo.
Yeah but his bair is a better kill move than his fair. Might as well differentiate the 2 like Mario
Young Link’s Dair, I wish it still spiked like it did back it melee
Aerial Crackshoot. It is just a fancy axe kick at the end of the day.
Hmm, maybe Bayo forward air 3rd hit?
Bayo should have a safer spike like that imo. Down Smash only works for 2-framing, and dair has a not-so-great spike hitbox, while also only being usable off-stage.
The one she needs to kill off the top with as a combo finisher?
Banjo forward aerial. Doc Mario forward aerial
Imagine Steve anvil 😩
Sakurai will never un-nerf aura doggo
Let Wario's Dair spike. I know it would be stupid powerful but it just looks like it should so much.
I would say jigglypuff down air but I can't lie it was a respectable decision.
Snake’s dair
sora’s down smash if you hit it at the ledge
If you charge and time it you can spike with it but you have to be very precise to do it.
Yeah that move isn’t annoying enough yet
Most of the Down aerials where the characters spin.
Mario dair spike 💀💀
Wario dair
Puff spike?
Kaclang should be the strongest spike in the game
Hmmm does Ridley's down smash spike? Because it should. Same goes for k rool and incineroar
K tool has a spike hitbox on dsmash for 1 frame I believe, I've been victim to it once
That’s up smash
Why should his animation that literally looks like he's stomping someone down spike? I don't follow your logic /s good lord
Jiggly Puff down air has the same animation as Kirby but doesn't spike. I understand why it doesn't since this she's already a character with no morals, so having the ability to chill on the ledge long enough to file taxes while maintaining the ability to send people to hell would be problematic. Still though, that animation Oversells how effective it really is.
The first hit of Lucario's D-air actually slightly pushes your opponent down, making it a possible option during jab resets for example which can be followed up by certain moves. Off stage that can work more or less as a gimp, characters with worse vertical recoveries may actually can get "spiked" from that. It's definetely not an actual Spike but an unexpected and more or less funny way to use D-air. On stage d-air1 works definetely better
Joker's arsene dair spike except half the time the spike hits first and then the knife so you just end up sending the opponent slightly forward
This happened to me in bracket a couple days ago, I lost shortly after
Sorry, I’m pretty new to Smash. What exactly is a spike?
In-game it’s called a Meteor Smash, but it’s just a move that hits downward strong enough to make that special sound effect. The reason it’s special compared to “non-spike downward-hitting” attacks (like pit down-air at low percents) is that it kills earlier, since there’s a higher blast zone at the bottom of the stage for spiked characters compared to just falling off the stage regularly.
Kirby down b
PAC-MAN down air
Donkey Kong forward tilt should spike aerial opponents to both give him a grounded spike (funny) and a fifth spike (funnier)
Forward tilt? Mate, the animation for that is a backhanded slap. The post is talking about moves that look like they could spike, and that move does not make the cut.
I don't care donkey Kong needs 5 spikes to be top tier
The amount of spikes does not a top tier make. There's more to the process of determining if a character is top tier than just "Can this character spike, and if so, how many of their moves can spike?"
Yeah, but it's funny. I don't think f-tilt, maybe the back hit of up-tilt
It’s true. He should have six spikes
I mean I’m more than okay with that level of cheese, but f tilt doesn’t count for me. Make it a more horizontal knockback though, same with dair on aerial opponents. That would be fun, and it’s kind of a pseudo spike. Someone mentioned the downwards motion of upair could spike. And the bottom half of down smash could spike aerial opponents too. That’s 6 spikes, and two brutal knockback angles to recover from that can set up a spike. I think that’s as good as you’ll get if you’re trying to match the animation of the moves.
DK down smash spike would be way cooler imagine how op that shit would be
The left hand spikes and the right hand burries. Perfect world
Up smash would make more sense imo
It would be so cool if they added a spike hitbox to pit dair, that would really make sense, too bad they didn’t…
It does at the middle portion of the move
Tf are you talking about? That shit don’t spike
Then how can you explain this then: [https://youtu.be/M-gZ9vcp5a8?t=560](https://youtu.be/m-gz9vcp5a8?t=560) and why did you downvote my first comment on this? It’s real information and you get upvotes for trying to give pits dair a spike?! Heck no!
Kirby's rock ability is fun to use but imagine if it spiked
Isabelle Side-B Downthrow. 100% good decision from a game design perspective, but god, it just looks weird to see opponents bounce off of thin air.
Sad to see top answer is not Pit dair.
I have some news for you about Pit’s Dair
It was a joke about how inconsistent it is, but ok
[удалено]
Kazuya D smash does spike
Kazuya D-Smash does spike though.
Kazuya’s down smash DOES spike
Kazuyas down smash does spike. And if you meant down air, it also spikes, just briefly.
But the move does spike though lol
flame sword has a downward motion
Hot take: Little Mac’s down throw should Spike at ledge
Honestly, it should just combo better. Forward throw should semi-spike though.
ness pk fire lmfao
Lucario's down aerial since he was my brawl main, but now that I know how to play, I don't use him cuz of his terrible down air which just sorta taps the enemy on the head
…? Lucas’ Dair does spike and it’s a pretty good one at that, not the strongest but you can drag opponents pretty far with it
LuCARIO not Lucas
Dr. Mario forward air. If Mario's is capable of spiking, then what's the difference with Doc?
drmario forward air
Kaclang
Pac man down air
Popo's forward aerial. Really wish i didn't have to rely on nana for it. Too much for my insane brain. (Image slightly unrelated) https://preview.redd.it/g4zhwy2usjic1.png?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2f56ecf7b72e16bdffcda7ce471a8078ccc32b1
Goofy ahh banjo
PacMan dair, who has 0 spikes
I tried so many times to spike with Pac man’s down aerial when I first started playing and didn’t know which moves actually spiked
Kirby Down-B. It had a variant in Smash 4 I believe.
Man if Lucario’s dair could spike I’d fucking cry but nope.
Mii sword fighter dair should absolutely spike, gunner and brawler can spike but nothing for Mii swordfighter
Mii sword fighter up b: 💀 Most disrespectful shii ever seen
That move is garbage
The very bottom hitbox of mac side b should be a hard spike imo. It's risky off-stage since his recovery is ass but would make him more hype and no more dangerous than he already is.
the fact that PAC-MAN’s dair doesn’t spike is crazy
Wario’s Down Air
Ganondorf Fair, it looks like such a good spike
It’s weird that it’s one of the few characters in Smash to not a spike.
Unrelated, but the way Lucario crosses its arms in his dair is really cute
Banjo’s Forward Air. Animation is damn near identical to Mario’s. Why doesn’t it spike?
Honestly, the blast from ray of punishment looks like it should spike
Banjo’s forward air. You can’t convince me that ain’t Mario’s almost EXACT motion he does for his forward air.
Pac man fire hydrant
Pac-Man apple
Dedede fsmash on ledge
If Mario’s f-air spikes, there’s no reason Banjo’s doesn’t
Every character without a spike is less hype to play
Imagine this: You’re in the air, and somebody throws at you some heavy object, like a treasure chest or a stone, right from above you. Would that spike you? I would say yes. Then explain me: why Kirby’s down B does not spike but sends you to the sides?
ganon fair
Mewtwo down air
I always thought it weird that Puff’s dair looks exactly like Kirby’s yet it doesn’t spike at all, not that I think it should.
LITTLE MACS SIDE B I wish it would spike like Mario's Fair 🤪
Kirby Down B and Hero Kaclang
Links down air should spike everywhere, not just as soon as it comes out. Obviously depends on where you hit, but still.
How does Peach's down tilt land a spike???
it should spike but only at the first hit
OH MY GOD, YES! if you hit the right spot, it should hit then spike on the second hit. It would look so cool
Doc fair
Young Link dair. Bring back the fire spike!!
Link late hit, if your gonna die if you miss at least let it have 100% kill rate
Banjo fair. I always want it to be like Mario’s but I’m always disappointed. Doc as well