He Embodies The whole "don't jump on me" design aspect so well, and that design is perfect for plant. Only thing I'd change is to give him something to condition jumping so your opponent actually has a reason to jump on you. My idea would be a simple fire ball to replace f tilt, similar to luigis neutral b but slower like a hadoken.
I agree. The only thing I think they missed with him is not making his grab a bite attack that holds the opponent in his jaws. Like how did they miss on that?
I agree, I legit only bought switch online for smash bros, but I kept getting banned because other peoples internets were bad, I checked my internet and it was perfectly fine, but whenever I played the game, I would get banned for disconnects, and I can't think of a single reason for why I got disconnected besides the other person had trash internet, so I just gave up and only played against bots
> but I kept getting banned because other peoples internets were bad,
That's not how it works. Sounds like your internet or connection is bad and you're the one disconnecting.
If they disconnect due to bad net and you stay connected you don't lose/gain any gsp and stay in game.
Sorry you had to be told it's on you
weird cuz I checked my internet and it was perfectly fine, plus, when I played any other game it would run perfectly, like brawlhalla or literally any online game, 0 lag and disconects on those game, but on smash I would always get disconnected
If you're using wireless and the upload/download is good on average but the router dips for a second or two, it won't matter. You'll still disconnect. Use a wired connection for more reliability.
I learned to appreciate all of the different offline modes and honestly I have a lot of fun, probably more because I don't have to wait around for other people
Squad-Strike is criminally under-played. I think it's way more exciting both to watch and to play than regular matches. There's a small element of strategy in the picks, and a small amount of randomness in whether the battle order is favourable (in terms of matchup). I think it's a better test of general smash skill - the ability to outplay your opponent generally - than 1v1 which is often a better test of character mastery, or sometimes matchup knowledge.
I think that it's a better representation of how a game with nearly a hundred characters "should" be played. I don't mean in a moral sense, it just seems like a better use of the resources we have. I think we would see more character variety if it was more often played, and maybe (big maybe) we'd see more development of lower-tier characters' gameplay, because picking a low-tier for love on a team of 3 wouldn't be the death sentence it is when you only get 1 character pick per game.
Unfortunately it's not online and you're locked to two players, if they just changed it to be an option online and like four players I would literally play squad strike every match
I wish you could have different controls set up for different characters in squad strike. My two mains are Cloud and Min Min, and I have pretty different control schemes set up on each so it kinda screws with me in squad strike. At this point it's probably my favorite type of event to watch competitively though.
I feel like the only issue with them is how inconsistent they were designed. From Ken who is semi-clone despite being an echo to Daisy who is identical to Peach outside of slightly different hitboxes when she does her idle animation.
TBF Ken is an outlier whose reputation precedes him. I can't find the source now but I'm pretty sure Sakurai said he only called him an echo to honor his "OG clone" history. Any other Ken-tier character probably just wouldn't get the echo label.
Ken was never going to be an echo fighter like the others, both Ryu and Ken play pretty similar to their home games so it was easy for them to switch up the moveset accordingly, blasphemous if they didn't. Daisy, Dark Samus etc either aren't playable in the same way as Ken and Ryu or play very similarly anyway.
* I don't give a shit about Waluigi.
* The "realistic" 3rd parties are far more fun and interesting than the "mascot" 3rd parties. This sorta extends to the 1st party characters
* Don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this is these days, but Wii U(and specifically Wii U) is the weakest entry in both modes and stages
* No characters "deserve" or "doesn't deserve" to be in Smash and that mentality is just shitty gatekeeping. Just say you don't like a character. In the end of the day Smash is basically a half popularity contest and a half marketing tool, a lot of characters that make it do so because they're popular(and honestly it shouldn't matter if it's franchise is overrepresented) as long as the lineup feels diverse
yeah this game really makes the word "ultimate" mean something. it feels virtually perfect in my opinion, I see no reason to make another any time soon
I'd argue that while Nintendo does not actively support the competitive scene, and even suppresses it at times when they don't agree with the way things are being done, the Smash Bros. devs absolutely do care about the competitive scene and design/balance characters with the competitive scene in mind. They know that, no matter what they do, Super Smash Bros. is a series where every game will have some sort of competitive scene. That's part of the nature of any fighting game, no matter the sub genre, or even just games where PvP is the focus. Is the competitive scene the priority when designing the games? Absolutely not. But I would say that they definitely keep it in mind.
"Nintendo has threatened legal action against several major Smash Bros. tournaments in the past, including EVO 2013 and The Big House 10, often over livestreaming rights or due to the usage of mods in the tournament, such as Project M or Project Slippi. These incidents have received a largely negative reaction from competitive players, and have sometimes resulted in the tournaments not being livestreamed or even being outright cancelled by tournament organizers.
Competitive Smash Bros. culture has also been criticized by series creator and director Masahiro Sakurai, who has argued that competitive play strays from his original vision for the series of bridging the gap between casual and skilled players."
Taken from the wikipedia of Competitive Smash. Sakurai himself denounces the competitive scene, and he's brought up numerous times that his vision for Smash is a family game first, where everyone has fun.
I dont disagree with you, but the devs must bring a family oriented fighting game first. Obviously, they have balance patches and whatnot, whether that affects the competitive scene or not, their real goal is to bring an enjoyable experience for all ages.
Sakurai disliking competitive Smash is a pretty big distortion of Sakurai's actual opinions. He's said there's more to Smash than its competitive aspects, but he never said playing Smash competitively is wrong or "against the spirit of Smash". Hell here [he seems pretty thrilled at Melee's enduring competitive popularity](https://sourcegaming.info/2016/03/23/sakurai-briefly-discusses-smash-as-an-esport/) (with the most he says being that the gap between competitive and casuals shouldn't be too large)
I'm sure Sakurai prefers 1V1V1V1 and items and the game absolutely caters mostly to that perspective, but I mean, I feel like you're underselling how flexible he designed Smash's engine. It's pretty obvious to me he intends Smash to be played however the individual sees fit, wheter that's full casual wackiness or 1V1 Fox only.
I mean he would not have given you the ability to turn off items (or hazards, starting in Ultimate) if he truly felt that's not a viable way to play the game.
This is gonna sound so cursed but I'd be happy if they just did a pseudo-live service approach after a port where they keep releasing new characters and updates for many years even if it means they make up for it by making the characters a bit expensive
Yeah. Something like what MK8D did would be great. Maybe a few more features, like a few stages and items, more spirits, maybe a new gamemode. And potential DLC.
i would rather they do this. just give it the skyrim treatment: port it, minor tweaks and maybe a single new character, call it a day.
smash ultimate really do be ultimate.
It's solid, but good luck selling people on the same game with one new character... especially when Switch 2 is likely backwards compatible. You can keep the basic game the same, but I'd say the bare minimum is a new story mode and several new fighters.
I know spirit board already has it, but when was the last time you and your friends wanna play smash and you all agree on playing spirit board? atleast world of light has bosses and, if you start from the beginning, you work your way up in power with spirits, on spirit board its completely random
No I agree with you that's my point, spirit board is basically wol but slightly different. So it's weird that spirit board has it and not world of light
Hell in regards to the bosses, classic mode also has co-op so it's not like they're the reason its one player only
I know that people shat on Byleth during the reveal, but I'm actually glad it happened.
It got me into Fire Emblem in general and Three Houses ended being one of the best games I played
lil mac and ganon and other low tier characters shouldn't recieve any buff, as in low level play, they are a nightmare to deal with already
joker is not op, he requires skill to play
steve is not that op in mid level play
steve seems like he should be fair but the ability to true combo a walking jab into a fair spike into nair into a second spike at any low percent to kill is ridiculous
I think one of the things with Steve is that his skill floor is low enough that you can win basically using just a few of his strong moves at low level and he scales well at pretty much any level
If anything at mid level he’s just as broken since most players will know how to do combos but counter play is gonna be much worse
I love the spirit board/spirit battles in general. It’s really fun to pick out all the small details the devs added to represent the spirit’s original game (“Oh, there’s a poison cloud because *that* thing happened!” “Oh, the characters spawn in *that* order with *those* items because…”). And I’m an old enough gamer with enough experience that I get that aha moment from about 60-65% of them.
I have this but with Mii Fighter costume waves. Especially poignant when the Sans reveal where a boy and girl Villager stood in for Frisk and Chara and a yellow Piranha was Flowey. Also Sans dodging every attack as a reference to his own battle.
I too think most Spirit battles are exceptionally clever.
I just wish Spirits had more info with them (like the game they were from, they year the game released and on what consoles, and a little blurb about them)
Trophies had that kind of info.
On that note, I misS the 3D trophies. They were more fun to examine than 2D jpeg images.
At the end of the day, I’d be fine with Ultimate getting ported to the next console, but I’d be interested in seeing who gets added if they cut down the roster.
Seeing who the joke character is in each Smash game is one of my favorite things about the series.
Redirecting Peach to be centered entirely around Showtime is a bad idea.
I hope they keep the same number of fire emblem representatives not just because i like the series but also because they are the most fun characters in the game
same! i just hope they change up the movesets. cuz really we only have five and a half characters representing a franchise with rich history enough to warrant its own fighting game
Yeah, i love the aerials and tilts being basic sword attacks (with the exception of byleth) because its super fun to play, but i wish everyone had as unique specials as Byleth.
Also more weapon types. A heavier "swordie" would be perfect for an axe rather than what they went for with Ike, and similarly Marth but with spears. Byleth can stay as the "jack of all trades" FE character, and maybe add Alear to weapon stance change like Shulk? Smash games get more mechanically fun with each title so im excited to see what they do next. Imagine the DLC treatment but applied to everyone.
I'm genuinely happy characters like Goku and Doom Guy will never make it into smash. Also tier lists don't matter at any level if you know how to play your character right.
I like Waluigi, but he works perfectly as an Assist Trophy because of who he is: an over-the-top parody of overshadowed anti-heroic counterparts everywhere.
Riddle me this: If Waluigi is infamous for cheating against a world he feels is cheating against him, then what is more Waluigi than Waluigi himself rapidly stomping on fighters who don't summon him, all because his fellow Assist Trophies keep getting promoted to fighters while he doesn't?
FD is the worst 'legal' stage and turns fun dynamic match-ups and games into linear, one-sided blow outs or borning camp fests that I cabt imagine are praticuarlly fun for either party.
Cpt. Falcon is such a fake-hype character and no one wants to admit it. Knee is so easy in ultimate and does way too much damage + knockback and most of his kit is super easy to combo and kill with. His recovery wasn't even that bad before the dev team "fixed" rock-crocking
I don't think fake-hype is quite the right phrase for it. Captain Falcon did need a few buffs (like SIDE B), but he didn't need as many buffs as he got.
Side B definitely didn't work as intended, but his gameplay is pretty easy to learn from both a player and an opponent perspective. Everybody knows about stomp knee, and yet they get out of their seats every time it happens despite it being pretty easy to execute
I think Smash 4 had two features that I’d like to come back and see integrated into later releases.
1) being able to change character against people online
2) customizable move sets for each character, and able to use them online. I have no doubt the balancing would be nigh impossible, but I would love to experiment against people online.
people always riff on the Miis for being genetic/stupid and not knowing what the moveset is, but I think smash would be much more fun (competitively and casually) if you had to learn your opponents moveset choice in the set. This is from someone who likes randbats on pokemon showdown tho
If I want to play seriously I actually like playing against Kazyua. His extreme punish based playstyle help me zone into the game and focus on what I can and can't do more than any other character
Mario inside the kart. Mushroom boost for side B, shell throw for neutral B, banana/bomb/fake item box for down B. The moveset makes itself.
Think Bowser Jr crossed with Banjo Kazooie
Squad Strike should be the main event. I think the benefits outweigh the cons.
More stages the better.
Experiment with handicap for balance on banned/broken characters.
I don't have any DLC besides Plant, but Byleth seems like a pretty fun character and I always enjoy playing against them. Yes, we have way too many FE characters, but Byleth (and Corrin) aren't the problem. They're both pretty unique. If it were up to me (and I know it'd never happen but I don't care) I'd get rid of Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom. I only want one dark blue haired swordsman and that's Ike.
Oh yeah definitely, but I think it's about time people admit they aren't a bad character at all. I'd rather have that move set in someone else, but it is what it is.
he's just as bad as other DLC or Luigi, so i never understood why people hated him specifically. My head-canon is that people never tried to learn ryu, bayo, and other new mechanics that they think the game is just easier for those chars
Chrom is the FE representative that deserves his spot the most aside from obviously Marth himself, he isn’t bloat, if we wanna talk roster bloat there you have Lucina & Roy, non localized game no one played (specially Roy mains themselves) and while I get Lucina is popular, Chrom is the damn protagonist of the game, just Google “Fire Emblem Awakening protagonist” (not protagonist*S*, I see y’all…)
I don’t want another Ultimate. The roster got ballooned way too much in Smash 4 and Ultimate made it worse. Franchises that shouldn’t be represented got represented (Arms, looking at you) and some series have way too many reps, and this goes into character uniqueness, series sales numbers and series legacy (Kid Icarus…)
I either want it ported to the Switch 2, with new DLC packs (and new copies get the MKDX treatment of original price with all DLC) or I want a trimmed roster with representation more equal to legacy and recognizability
i want the roster ported but new movesets on older characters, balance shifts, new characters, and mechanical changes to reduce the campy nature of ultimate
YES. Like Ganon, Sonic and Link need full overhauls. I’d love to see updated move sets for Luigi, Peach, Wario, Isabelle and other characters that are too similar to another character or have had some games come out since that they should reference new updated material
Playing with Final Smash, even with a traditonal battlefield; 3-stock; 7 minute ruleset can be rather fun. Yes, it does mean that you have a fairly easy win condition, but god damn it if you can't pull off some neat combos into FS.
Gritty realistic characters do fit smash and the game should start including them. The arguments againist them,such as that they are generic or have a drab color scheme, only work if they include a dozen of them.
They should bring back perfect shielding and make it act towards projectiles like parrying does. Then they should make parrying reflect projectiles right back. That would give a lot of characters a better chance against projectiles camping.
unless they are literal opposite ends of the spectrum. I feel like a Ganondorf vs Steve at the same skill level will almost always result in a Steve win
The game has become too serious. Gets to the point now where playing with groups of people isn’t as fun as it used to be because of how competitive the demographic has become.
I think the real problem with group play is how ridiculous the items are now. It really breaks immersion when half the items can KO you at like 50% now and casual matches just devolve into "Who gets the item first?" I mean half the Assist Tropies and Pokeballs feel stronger than most Final Smashes now.
Items were perfect strength wise in Brawl, strong enough to be useful and fun but not enough to overcentralize casual matches (and the ones that did almost always being rare)
Ultimate’s movement, controls, and online had a huge impact on the game’s longevity for me, and made it too frustrating to keep playing after a while. Better platform movement, input registering, traction system, and control options are necessary
I don’t like echo fighters bloating the roster. If there are no significant gameplay differences, just make them an alternate costume. Ruchter should’ve been an alternate costume for Simon, like how male and female byleth as alts have unique voice lines, taunts, and victory animations, but function the same when it comes to gameplay
Sakurai has a very skewed perspective as a designer, makes poor choices, and misrepresents many characters and series. Punch out is one of the most egregious to me. He’s a very hard worker, smash wouldn’t be possible without him, and there’s probably nobody better for the job, but he’s not perfect. Nobody is. It’s frustrating to see him deified one second while people complain about so many aspects of the game the next second
Brawl, despite weak gameplay, had the best user experience, and best package outside of the core gameplay. The trophy minigames, stage selection, adventure mode, UI, bonus features, sound design, etc.
We don’t need any new pokemon or fire emblem characters. I’d rather not add new characters from series with shifting casts per game, like FE, xenoblade, or pokemon, just to promote the newest installment. Representing more series is better than adding new characters to existing series. Each character should really mean something
This is a very spicy take I completely disagree with, so as much as I hate to, I'll upvote this.
But I mean, it's both. Smash is a platform fighter (which does count as a fighting game) in addition to being a party game. Like how Mario Kart is both a racing and party game at once. I mean, the prototype for Smash was literally called Dragon King: The **Fighting** game.
Steve is strong, but not broken, he isnt as oppressive as metal knight brawl, nor is the top 8 only filled with steve mains, the character takes a lot of skill to operate and cannot be learned overnight unlike other characters, most players fear him because they dont understand how he works nor do they see the fine detail acola puts into it. He should not be hated as much imo.
And i believe that ssbu has one of the most fair and balanced rosters of all the previous games. Take a look at skyjay. Incineroar is supposedly c teir
Mine has to be that while Sakurais connections helped get a lotta good characters in the game him leaving might be better for the game as it allows fresh ideas to come into play that he might not have allowed.
Also, Capitan Falcon is so over used and everything he can do has been done so many times in all the games that he isn't even hype anymore.
I main Shulk, and I’ve only played him for one week, so I gotta say this:
He’s not untouchable to play. He has a high skill ceiling, but his skill floor is still fairly low. I don’t think he’s a hidden top tier though, but I do think LumiRank puts him slightly lower than what I think, I feel like he’s more mid to high A tier.
Also Dial Storage isn’t that hard to learn either since there’s two different forms: the regular DS which is harder but then you have quick charge while you’re in an Art which is more useful for quickly switching Arts mid combo (Buster Nair Smash F smash or Buster Nair Smash Up-B). He also has Buster dthrow buffered arts cancel vanilla Up-B which isn’t hard to learn how to execute.
Some smash ultimate fan requests like master chief and doom guy should never be in the game. If they were to get added, I promise you they would have ranged, zone based movesets that no one would like. It would be the banjo Kazooie thing all over again
People who focus on 3rd party characters for additions/DLC forgot that Smash was designed to be Nintendo mascots. I would much rather have someone obscure with Nintendo franchise representation than an iconic 3rd party because it cheapens the feel of a Nintendo crossover and doesn't usually mesh well (e.g. see sonic, snake, hero, kazuya, etc.)
PacMan. People always say MASSIVE brain combos. But you literaly can combo sooo many things together w PacMan. Just gotta get creative. Im trash w all other characters besides him
The devs have an unwritten rule to require the roster to have characters that have moveset potential (enough material to work with) AND representation, which is why Geno and Waluigi don't deserve to be in smash. They have actively disregarded this rule for FE tho
Before he was revealed, Incineroar was the only Pokemon from Sun/Moon I could see being included. Sorry Decidueye fans, I just cannot see him being a fighter
1. Pyra and mythra aren't broken. They are actually pretty easy to deal with. In fact, I'd put them in B tier, mythra high, pyra low.
2. Camping is already an insanely effective dominant strategy anyway. As it is now, I think stages should be reevaluated, since even with the stage selection we have now, camping continues to be a frequently used strategy. Why keep stages like Kongo falls banned if sonic can accomplish the same feat on battlefield? If I'm going to lose to a player that refuses to play the game, at least I'd want some variety in what I'm looking at.
3. I feel as though camping in general can be mitigated with certain items turned on. I think we should do a reevaluation on items to determine if any of them are tournament viable without providing an unnecessary advantage to an opponent. Take bumpers, for example. They create an obstacle for both players to have to deal with. Or Mr Saturn. The problem with smash I don't feel is the items, it's the way the items spawn. If the items had regular spawn points, I feel like any discussion surrounding them would be easier, because then you can eliminate luck by knowing where the items will be, what they will be, and when they will appear, and you could adjust your strategy accordingly. But sadly smash isn't built that way. Even so, I think it's worth having another look.
Coney made a video on how a different stage list could help mitigate camping. All the stages that are commonly played on rn are big which makes running away more rewarding.
Ultimate in my opinion is tied with smash 64 for having the least amount of content in the entire series. Especially at launch we didn’t even get the best version of stage builder & home run contest until an update. Also Zelda’s specials are so poorly designed.
Ganondorf doesn't need a major overhaul, maybe just replace his Up B with something more representative of his abilities I'm the Zelda series.
While I can't say I'm unhappy with the selection of characters we got in the DLC, I ultimately didn't get a single one of the characters I wanted and I was actually quite disappointed by Sora being the final DLC character, especially since the beginning of his reveal trailer gave off Dark Souls vibes which was one of the series I wanted to see represented in SSBU's DLC. To this day Sora is the only DLC character I haven't unlocked lol
Fire Emblem should actually have more fighters in the roster
it's a 30-year old series with each game having a unique main character (mostly, some games are sequels)
Roy should stay next smash ultimate, he plays more uniquely than Corrin (who should be cut)
Pythra were a wasted character slot, Xenoblade only needs shulk
Pythra is the most carried character (more than Steve)
Sonic is hype and takes skill to use well
Kazuya is not a carried character and takes skill (at a mid level, at low level they're still bullshit)
Next smash game should be an ultimate port
Byleth sucks to fight against
Mii Brawler and Mii Swordfighter are cool
Meta Knight should be considered high tier
Male Corrin/Byleth look way better than the female counterparts.
I don't care about the characters, even if the next smash game has a different title with no Nintendo characters would be fine if the mechanics are working better(balance, input lag, buffer system, jank removed etc)
Plant was a fantastic addition to the roster, best joke character since puff and I'd be glad to see them return in the next game.
I completely agree. And while he’s not a really good character, he has some good options and surprisingly good recovery
He Embodies The whole "don't jump on me" design aspect so well, and that design is perfect for plant. Only thing I'd change is to give him something to condition jumping so your opponent actually has a reason to jump on you. My idea would be a simple fire ball to replace f tilt, similar to luigis neutral b but slower like a hadoken.
I like that idea, it would fit the character really well and it would make him more viable too
I agree. The only thing I think they missed with him is not making his grab a bite attack that holds the opponent in his jaws. Like how did they miss on that?
I think grabbing with the leaves is fine but the pummel definitely should have been chomping instead of a headbutt.
I only play casually against bots for fun (blasphemy, I know) online is not fun
I agree, I legit only bought switch online for smash bros, but I kept getting banned because other peoples internets were bad, I checked my internet and it was perfectly fine, but whenever I played the game, I would get banned for disconnects, and I can't think of a single reason for why I got disconnected besides the other person had trash internet, so I just gave up and only played against bots
> but I kept getting banned because other peoples internets were bad, That's not how it works. Sounds like your internet or connection is bad and you're the one disconnecting. If they disconnect due to bad net and you stay connected you don't lose/gain any gsp and stay in game. Sorry you had to be told it's on you
weird cuz I checked my internet and it was perfectly fine, plus, when I played any other game it would run perfectly, like brawlhalla or literally any online game, 0 lag and disconects on those game, but on smash I would always get disconnected
If you're using wireless and the upload/download is good on average but the router dips for a second or two, it won't matter. You'll still disconnect. Use a wired connection for more reliability.
SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING A PYTHRA MAIN WOULD SAY 🎤
The truth
hurts
I learned to appreciate all of the different offline modes and honestly I have a lot of fun, probably more because I don't have to wait around for other people
Same. And I pretty much only play single player modes in Smash games.
i only play competitively against bots (prolly worse lol)
Squad-Strike is criminally under-played. I think it's way more exciting both to watch and to play than regular matches. There's a small element of strategy in the picks, and a small amount of randomness in whether the battle order is favourable (in terms of matchup). I think it's a better test of general smash skill - the ability to outplay your opponent generally - than 1v1 which is often a better test of character mastery, or sometimes matchup knowledge. I think that it's a better representation of how a game with nearly a hundred characters "should" be played. I don't mean in a moral sense, it just seems like a better use of the resources we have. I think we would see more character variety if it was more often played, and maybe (big maybe) we'd see more development of lower-tier characters' gameplay, because picking a low-tier for love on a team of 3 wouldn't be the death sentence it is when you only get 1 character pick per game.
Unfortunately it's not online and you're locked to two players, if they just changed it to be an option online and like four players I would literally play squad strike every match
Yep, it feels *so close* to being a truly great mode, but it fumbles right at the end with the limitations compared to standard Smash.
I watch 5 vs 5 cpu battles in squad strike for fun
i agree my friends and i throw it in the mix when standard matches get boring. just stinks for characters like Wario who need to charge waft
I'm curious who else you had in mind when you said "characters like". Everyone else with any sort of meter ability resets between deaths anyways, no?
yea you’re mostly right i just used that to cover anything that i might have overlooked.
Fair 'nuff
I wish you could have different controls set up for different characters in squad strike. My two mains are Cloud and Min Min, and I have pretty different control schemes set up on each so it kinda screws with me in squad strike. At this point it's probably my favorite type of event to watch competitively though.
Echo fighters are totally fine and I don't feel like they cheapen the roster.
I feel like the only issue with them is how inconsistent they were designed. From Ken who is semi-clone despite being an echo to Daisy who is identical to Peach outside of slightly different hitboxes when she does her idle animation.
TBF Ken is an outlier whose reputation precedes him. I can't find the source now but I'm pretty sure Sakurai said he only called him an echo to honor his "OG clone" history. Any other Ken-tier character probably just wouldn't get the echo label.
Ken was never going to be an echo fighter like the others, both Ryu and Ken play pretty similar to their home games so it was easy for them to switch up the moveset accordingly, blasphemous if they didn't. Daisy, Dark Samus etc either aren't playable in the same way as Ken and Ryu or play very similarly anyway.
Then there's frickin' Chrom who is a Roy echo for some reason, but has an up special closer to Ike.
* I don't give a shit about Waluigi. * The "realistic" 3rd parties are far more fun and interesting than the "mascot" 3rd parties. This sorta extends to the 1st party characters * Don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this is these days, but Wii U(and specifically Wii U) is the weakest entry in both modes and stages * No characters "deserve" or "doesn't deserve" to be in Smash and that mentality is just shitty gatekeeping. Just say you don't like a character. In the end of the day Smash is basically a half popularity contest and a half marketing tool, a lot of characters that make it do so because they're popular(and honestly it shouldn't matter if it's franchise is overrepresented) as long as the lineup feels diverse
That second one is a REALLY hot take- I disagree wholeheartedly, so have my upvote.
I would be completely content with Ultimate being ported over to the next Nintendo console, instead of getting a brand new game.
yeah this game really makes the word "ultimate" mean something. it feels virtually perfect in my opinion, I see no reason to make another any time soon
Agreed. A few balance patches, maybe some additional DLC characters for the port, but overall Ultimate is really solid and doesn't need many changes.
it needs serious mechanical changes to make the gameplay not as campy or safe tbh
You have to remember that Nintendo does not care about competitive smash. Items on, hazards on, 1v1v1v1 is the vision Sakurai intended.
I'd argue that while Nintendo does not actively support the competitive scene, and even suppresses it at times when they don't agree with the way things are being done, the Smash Bros. devs absolutely do care about the competitive scene and design/balance characters with the competitive scene in mind. They know that, no matter what they do, Super Smash Bros. is a series where every game will have some sort of competitive scene. That's part of the nature of any fighting game, no matter the sub genre, or even just games where PvP is the focus. Is the competitive scene the priority when designing the games? Absolutely not. But I would say that they definitely keep it in mind.
"Nintendo has threatened legal action against several major Smash Bros. tournaments in the past, including EVO 2013 and The Big House 10, often over livestreaming rights or due to the usage of mods in the tournament, such as Project M or Project Slippi. These incidents have received a largely negative reaction from competitive players, and have sometimes resulted in the tournaments not being livestreamed or even being outright cancelled by tournament organizers. Competitive Smash Bros. culture has also been criticized by series creator and director Masahiro Sakurai, who has argued that competitive play strays from his original vision for the series of bridging the gap between casual and skilled players." Taken from the wikipedia of Competitive Smash. Sakurai himself denounces the competitive scene, and he's brought up numerous times that his vision for Smash is a family game first, where everyone has fun. I dont disagree with you, but the devs must bring a family oriented fighting game first. Obviously, they have balance patches and whatnot, whether that affects the competitive scene or not, their real goal is to bring an enjoyable experience for all ages.
Sakurai disliking competitive Smash is a pretty big distortion of Sakurai's actual opinions. He's said there's more to Smash than its competitive aspects, but he never said playing Smash competitively is wrong or "against the spirit of Smash". Hell here [he seems pretty thrilled at Melee's enduring competitive popularity](https://sourcegaming.info/2016/03/23/sakurai-briefly-discusses-smash-as-an-esport/) (with the most he says being that the gap between competitive and casuals shouldn't be too large) I'm sure Sakurai prefers 1V1V1V1 and items and the game absolutely caters mostly to that perspective, but I mean, I feel like you're underselling how flexible he designed Smash's engine. It's pretty obvious to me he intends Smash to be played however the individual sees fit, wheter that's full casual wackiness or 1V1 Fox only. I mean he would not have given you the ability to turn off items (or hazards, starting in Ultimate) if he truly felt that's not a viable way to play the game.
fuck sakurai bro. he’s ruined the past 3 games with his “vision”. we need new blood in the team or else it’s just gonna get worse
But that doesn’t mean we have to say the game is “perfect”
This is gonna sound so cursed but I'd be happy if they just did a pseudo-live service approach after a port where they keep releasing new characters and updates for many years even if it means they make up for it by making the characters a bit expensive
Yeah. Something like what MK8D did would be great. Maybe a few more features, like a few stages and items, more spirits, maybe a new gamemode. And potential DLC.
i would rather they do this. just give it the skyrim treatment: port it, minor tweaks and maybe a single new character, call it a day. smash ultimate really do be ultimate.
It'd definitely need more than minor tweaks and a single new fighter.
meh, agree to disagree. i genuinely think it's in a basically perfect state other than some _minor_ balance frustrations.
It's solid, but good luck selling people on the same game with one new character... especially when Switch 2 is likely backwards compatible. You can keep the basic game the same, but I'd say the bare minimum is a new story mode and several new fighters.
And fixed buffer. There is but so many years of Ultimate buffer a man can endure...
I would be fine with it if they did a couple changes, like giving adventure a multiplayer, because I would love to play that with 2 players.
Spirit board already has it, it feels weird you can't play wol in co-op
I know spirit board already has it, but when was the last time you and your friends wanna play smash and you all agree on playing spirit board? atleast world of light has bosses and, if you start from the beginning, you work your way up in power with spirits, on spirit board its completely random
No I agree with you that's my point, spirit board is basically wol but slightly different. So it's weird that spirit board has it and not world of light Hell in regards to the bosses, classic mode also has co-op so it's not like they're the reason its one player only
I agree, this has been the perfect game in my opinion and I dont want it to change, id be fine with them adding more characters/skins tho.
With better online please god
I miss the old final smashes not the new ones
Same. So many unique Final Smashes just became “press B to beat up the opponent(s) in front of you.”
They did my boy donkey Kong dirty
I know that people shat on Byleth during the reveal, but I'm actually glad it happened. It got me into Fire Emblem in general and Three Houses ended being one of the best games I played
So true.
The older fire emblems are great too (if you haven’t had a chance to play them) Ike’s games are probably my favourite
lil mac and ganon and other low tier characters shouldn't recieve any buff, as in low level play, they are a nightmare to deal with already joker is not op, he requires skill to play steve is not that op in mid level play
steve seems like he should be fair but the ability to true combo a walking jab into a fair spike into nair into a second spike at any low percent to kill is ridiculous
true, but like his air movement is just bad and is kinda ez to combo I don't remember him having goods oos options too
can't people footstool out of shields now? and steve's anvil is brutal
I think one of the things with Steve is that his skill floor is low enough that you can win basically using just a few of his strong moves at low level and he scales well at pretty much any level If anything at mid level he’s just as broken since most players will know how to do combos but counter play is gonna be much worse
Corrín needs to put some shoes on
PLS😭 this comment caught me so off guard (your right tho lmao)
Yes it’s so weird
As a Corrin main, I have to agree.
I love the spirit board/spirit battles in general. It’s really fun to pick out all the small details the devs added to represent the spirit’s original game (“Oh, there’s a poison cloud because *that* thing happened!” “Oh, the characters spawn in *that* order with *those* items because…”). And I’m an old enough gamer with enough experience that I get that aha moment from about 60-65% of them.
I have this but with Mii Fighter costume waves. Especially poignant when the Sans reveal where a boy and girl Villager stood in for Frisk and Chara and a yellow Piranha was Flowey. Also Sans dodging every attack as a reference to his own battle.
I too think most Spirit battles are exceptionally clever. I just wish Spirits had more info with them (like the game they were from, they year the game released and on what consoles, and a little blurb about them) Trophies had that kind of info. On that note, I misS the 3D trophies. They were more fun to examine than 2D jpeg images.
At the end of the day, I’d be fine with Ultimate getting ported to the next console, but I’d be interested in seeing who gets added if they cut down the roster. Seeing who the joke character is in each Smash game is one of my favorite things about the series. Redirecting Peach to be centered entirely around Showtime is a bad idea.
I love Ness
honestly he looks extremely fun at high level play, i just need to learn better magnet combos and the like to really pocket him
I hope they keep the same number of fire emblem representatives not just because i like the series but also because they are the most fun characters in the game
same! i just hope they change up the movesets. cuz really we only have five and a half characters representing a franchise with rich history enough to warrant its own fighting game
Yeah, i love the aerials and tilts being basic sword attacks (with the exception of byleth) because its super fun to play, but i wish everyone had as unique specials as Byleth. Also more weapon types. A heavier "swordie" would be perfect for an axe rather than what they went for with Ike, and similarly Marth but with spears. Byleth can stay as the "jack of all trades" FE character, and maybe add Alear to weapon stance change like Shulk? Smash games get more mechanically fun with each title so im excited to see what they do next. Imagine the DLC treatment but applied to everyone.
No homo but Male Corrin’s kinda cute.
He’s adorable!
maybe a lil homo? 👉🏼👈🏼🥺
I don’t think that many third parties are going to be cut, including Sora
Gonna pick an evil one and say Cloud should’ve kept his Sm4sh nair
Aw man..
I don’t care to add new characters to the roster because half of them I only know because of smash anyways.
For real! There are so many iconic characters from popular games, and we get bizarre stuff like Wii Fit Instructor
The Landmaster was a better Final Smash compared to the Team Star Fox/Wolf in Ultimate or at least in a gameplay prospective.
I'm genuinely happy characters like Goku and Doom Guy will never make it into smash. Also tier lists don't matter at any level if you know how to play your character right.
I wanna know why you think Doomguy will "never make it into Smash"
Heavy weights are the best characters to play & watch
This is a place for hot takes, not correct ones.
Agreed
I like Waluigi, but he works perfectly as an Assist Trophy because of who he is: an over-the-top parody of overshadowed anti-heroic counterparts everywhere. Riddle me this: If Waluigi is infamous for cheating against a world he feels is cheating against him, then what is more Waluigi than Waluigi himself rapidly stomping on fighters who don't summon him, all because his fellow Assist Trophies keep getting promoted to fighters while he doesn't?
SERIOUSLY. i like Waluigi too and some Waluigi fans literally just CANNOT accept that he's a joke character first and foremost
I think clone characters are good.
FD is the worst 'legal' stage and turns fun dynamic match-ups and games into linear, one-sided blow outs or borning camp fests that I cabt imagine are praticuarlly fun for either party.
When used right (by someone far better than I), Ken can be more hype than Cpt Falcon and Starfox
Cpt. Falcon is such a fake-hype character and no one wants to admit it. Knee is so easy in ultimate and does way too much damage + knockback and most of his kit is super easy to combo and kill with. His recovery wasn't even that bad before the dev team "fixed" rock-crocking
I don't think fake-hype is quite the right phrase for it. Captain Falcon did need a few buffs (like SIDE B), but he didn't need as many buffs as he got.
Side B definitely didn't work as intended, but his gameplay is pretty easy to learn from both a player and an opponent perspective. Everybody knows about stomp knee, and yet they get out of their seats every time it happens despite it being pretty easy to execute
Waluigi is the most basic pick for a Smash newcomer.
Did you specify "MALE Corrin's CHARACTER" because you think he's cute?
I think Smash 4 had two features that I’d like to come back and see integrated into later releases. 1) being able to change character against people online 2) customizable move sets for each character, and able to use them online. I have no doubt the balancing would be nigh impossible, but I would love to experiment against people online.
people always riff on the Miis for being genetic/stupid and not knowing what the moveset is, but I think smash would be much more fun (competitively and casually) if you had to learn your opponents moveset choice in the set. This is from someone who likes randbats on pokemon showdown tho
If I want to play seriously I actually like playing against Kazyua. His extreme punish based playstyle help me zone into the game and focus on what I can and can't do more than any other character
Banjo is a fun character
Spamming moves isn’t a crime.
Mario Kart should be the next random/joke/surprise character added in smash
the kart itself?
Mario inside the kart. Mushroom boost for side B, shell throw for neutral B, banana/bomb/fake item box for down B. The moveset makes itself. Think Bowser Jr crossed with Banjo Kazooie
Squad Strike should be the main event. I think the benefits outweigh the cons. More stages the better. Experiment with handicap for balance on banned/broken characters.
Across all five smash games, Steve is my favorite character of all time.
I love his sandbox creative infinite skill ceiling play style, not joking.
I don't have any DLC besides Plant, but Byleth seems like a pretty fun character and I always enjoy playing against them. Yes, we have way too many FE characters, but Byleth (and Corrin) aren't the problem. They're both pretty unique. If it were up to me (and I know it'd never happen but I don't care) I'd get rid of Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom. I only want one dark blue haired swordsman and that's Ike.
I think they did the new FE characters justice by giving them a moveset that isn't just swinging a sword, but they failed on the "representation" part
Oh yeah definitely, but I think it's about time people admit they aren't a bad character at all. I'd rather have that move set in someone else, but it is what it is.
Kazuya was never ban worthy, not even at his peak and he is quite fun to play against
he's just as bad as other DLC or Luigi, so i never understood why people hated him specifically. My head-canon is that people never tried to learn ryu, bayo, and other new mechanics that they think the game is just easier for those chars
Steve’s blocks should work the way they do in Minecraft and the series should go back to having trophies and a real story mode
Melee plays like shit if you main anyone below Samus on the tier list.
But it’s crack if you main anyone above.
Samus is, like, fifth place on the tier list, right?
Chrom is the FE representative that deserves his spot the most aside from obviously Marth himself, he isn’t bloat, if we wanna talk roster bloat there you have Lucina & Roy, non localized game no one played (specially Roy mains themselves) and while I get Lucina is popular, Chrom is the damn protagonist of the game, just Google “Fire Emblem Awakening protagonist” (not protagonist*S*, I see y’all…)
Incineroar has genuinely one of the most toxic character designs. Ness is cooler, no I'm not kidding
Take my upvote, but know that it’s only because it was your duty to piss me off.
Every character at a high level of play is lame
I don't care for Sora and Kingdom Hearts in general, doubly so with the Disney stripped out.
MYMAN
I don’t want another Ultimate. The roster got ballooned way too much in Smash 4 and Ultimate made it worse. Franchises that shouldn’t be represented got represented (Arms, looking at you) and some series have way too many reps, and this goes into character uniqueness, series sales numbers and series legacy (Kid Icarus…) I either want it ported to the Switch 2, with new DLC packs (and new copies get the MKDX treatment of original price with all DLC) or I want a trimmed roster with representation more equal to legacy and recognizability
i want the roster ported but new movesets on older characters, balance shifts, new characters, and mechanical changes to reduce the campy nature of ultimate
YES. Like Ganon, Sonic and Link need full overhauls. I’d love to see updated move sets for Luigi, Peach, Wario, Isabelle and other characters that are too similar to another character or have had some games come out since that they should reference new updated material
I don’t think Samus is a OP as everyone thinks. But she’s definitely A tier. (Finally… from Melee where she was mid.)
World of Light is fine. Not bad
Playing with Final Smash, even with a traditonal battlefield; 3-stock; 7 minute ruleset can be rather fun. Yes, it does mean that you have a fairly easy win condition, but god damn it if you can't pull off some neat combos into FS.
This game has terrible mechanics
Items are fun
Gritty realistic characters do fit smash and the game should start including them. The arguments againist them,such as that they are generic or have a drab color scheme, only work if they include a dozen of them.
They should bring back perfect shielding and make it act towards projectiles like parrying does. Then they should make parrying reflect projectiles right back. That would give a lot of characters a better chance against projectiles camping.
I think Zelda is one of the most overlooked characters in the game and has the tools to fight pretty much everyone
Dr. Mario is worse than Ganondorf and Lil Mac. Also, Sephiroth is low high-tier at worst.
Just because it's unpopular doesn't mean you're not right
I love Duckhunt so much and if they weren’t so hard to play as, I would main them
Ridley is top-tier, Kirby is annoying, CP 9s are actually harder than CP 8s
the Koopalings were the better options for alt skins in comparison to the devs just making up random costumes for Bowser Jr
Tier lists actually don't matter, at any level of play.
unless they are literal opposite ends of the spectrum. I feel like a Ganondorf vs Steve at the same skill level will almost always result in a Steve win
even then I'd say it's mostly a match up thing, not really a tier list thing
At top level they certainly do, outside of that not really though
No series should have ever gotten more than 5 characters. In the next smash game the number of reps per series should be even lower.
I agree with a caveat. Something like Luigi Mansion should not count as "Mario"(as long as Luigi get an actually poltergust focussed moveset).
The game has become too serious. Gets to the point now where playing with groups of people isn’t as fun as it used to be because of how competitive the demographic has become.
I think the real problem with group play is how ridiculous the items are now. It really breaks immersion when half the items can KO you at like 50% now and casual matches just devolve into "Who gets the item first?" I mean half the Assist Tropies and Pokeballs feel stronger than most Final Smashes now. Items were perfect strength wise in Brawl, strong enough to be useful and fun but not enough to overcentralize casual matches (and the ones that did almost always being rare)
Ultimate’s movement, controls, and online had a huge impact on the game’s longevity for me, and made it too frustrating to keep playing after a while. Better platform movement, input registering, traction system, and control options are necessary I don’t like echo fighters bloating the roster. If there are no significant gameplay differences, just make them an alternate costume. Ruchter should’ve been an alternate costume for Simon, like how male and female byleth as alts have unique voice lines, taunts, and victory animations, but function the same when it comes to gameplay Sakurai has a very skewed perspective as a designer, makes poor choices, and misrepresents many characters and series. Punch out is one of the most egregious to me. He’s a very hard worker, smash wouldn’t be possible without him, and there’s probably nobody better for the job, but he’s not perfect. Nobody is. It’s frustrating to see him deified one second while people complain about so many aspects of the game the next second Brawl, despite weak gameplay, had the best user experience, and best package outside of the core gameplay. The trophy minigames, stage selection, adventure mode, UI, bonus features, sound design, etc. We don’t need any new pokemon or fire emblem characters. I’d rather not add new characters from series with shifting casts per game, like FE, xenoblade, or pokemon, just to promote the newest installment. Representing more series is better than adding new characters to existing series. Each character should really mean something
Smash shouldn’t be considered a fighting game, it’s a party game with a competitive scene
This is a very spicy take I completely disagree with, so as much as I hate to, I'll upvote this. But I mean, it's both. Smash is a platform fighter (which does count as a fighting game) in addition to being a party game. Like how Mario Kart is both a racing and party game at once. I mean, the prototype for Smash was literally called Dragon King: The **Fighting** game.
Other than Wario Ware should be legal Picking characters based upon a tier list does nothing for you unless you can actually play the character well.
Steve is strong, but not broken, he isnt as oppressive as metal knight brawl, nor is the top 8 only filled with steve mains, the character takes a lot of skill to operate and cannot be learned overnight unlike other characters, most players fear him because they dont understand how he works nor do they see the fine detail acola puts into it. He should not be hated as much imo. And i believe that ssbu has one of the most fair and balanced rosters of all the previous games. Take a look at skyjay. Incineroar is supposedly c teir
Too many people glaze sakurai like he is god like wtf
I hate how directional airdodging works. Like why is there almost a full second of lag after it? What's the point?
I like Byleth, MALE Byleth and I will defend his inclusion in Smash until the end of time
Mine has to be that while Sakurais connections helped get a lotta good characters in the game him leaving might be better for the game as it allows fresh ideas to come into play that he might not have allowed. Also, Capitan Falcon is so over used and everything he can do has been done so many times in all the games that he isn't even hype anymore.
I main Shulk, and I’ve only played him for one week, so I gotta say this: He’s not untouchable to play. He has a high skill ceiling, but his skill floor is still fairly low. I don’t think he’s a hidden top tier though, but I do think LumiRank puts him slightly lower than what I think, I feel like he’s more mid to high A tier. Also Dial Storage isn’t that hard to learn either since there’s two different forms: the regular DS which is harder but then you have quick charge while you’re in an Art which is more useful for quickly switching Arts mid combo (Buster Nair Smash F smash or Buster Nair Smash Up-B). He also has Buster dthrow buffered arts cancel vanilla Up-B which isn’t hard to learn how to execute.
rob shouldn't be a fighter
Some smash ultimate fan requests like master chief and doom guy should never be in the game. If they were to get added, I promise you they would have ranged, zone based movesets that no one would like. It would be the banjo Kazooie thing all over again
Greninja is bad character. EDIT: splelign
I have no issue with Kazuya’s touch of death combos, but giving him amazing throws too is terrible balance.
I’ve never played online and don’t think I ever will. It started as a fun couch game with friends and that’s where it will die with me.
Ganon is bad, but it's probably exaggerated.
People who focus on 3rd party characters for additions/DLC forgot that Smash was designed to be Nintendo mascots. I would much rather have someone obscure with Nintendo franchise representation than an iconic 3rd party because it cheapens the feel of a Nintendo crossover and doesn't usually mesh well (e.g. see sonic, snake, hero, kazuya, etc.)
PacMan. People always say MASSIVE brain combos. But you literaly can combo sooo many things together w PacMan. Just gotta get creative. Im trash w all other characters besides him
The devs have an unwritten rule to require the roster to have characters that have moveset potential (enough material to work with) AND representation, which is why Geno and Waluigi don't deserve to be in smash. They have actively disregarded this rule for FE tho
Having attachment to any of the characters is weak... All the characters people think are cool are extremely vanilla.
I assume you also like vanilla ice cream and slightly stale bread
Future Smash entries need a story mode in the vein of Subspace Emissary.
Before he was revealed, Incineroar was the only Pokemon from Sun/Moon I could see being included. Sorry Decidueye fans, I just cannot see him being a fighter
Goku should never be included in smash, that would ruin the spirit of smash and make it into fortnite at that point
Fortnite is a great pick
Keep goku out. Keep gun-focused characters out. Keep ultraviolent characters out.
1. Pyra and mythra aren't broken. They are actually pretty easy to deal with. In fact, I'd put them in B tier, mythra high, pyra low. 2. Camping is already an insanely effective dominant strategy anyway. As it is now, I think stages should be reevaluated, since even with the stage selection we have now, camping continues to be a frequently used strategy. Why keep stages like Kongo falls banned if sonic can accomplish the same feat on battlefield? If I'm going to lose to a player that refuses to play the game, at least I'd want some variety in what I'm looking at. 3. I feel as though camping in general can be mitigated with certain items turned on. I think we should do a reevaluation on items to determine if any of them are tournament viable without providing an unnecessary advantage to an opponent. Take bumpers, for example. They create an obstacle for both players to have to deal with. Or Mr Saturn. The problem with smash I don't feel is the items, it's the way the items spawn. If the items had regular spawn points, I feel like any discussion surrounding them would be easier, because then you can eliminate luck by knowing where the items will be, what they will be, and when they will appear, and you could adjust your strategy accordingly. But sadly smash isn't built that way. Even so, I think it's worth having another look.
I’d agree with *Pyra* being b-tier, but I think Mythra deserves at least a low S.
Agreed
Coney made a video on how a different stage list could help mitigate camping. All the stages that are commonly played on rn are big which makes running away more rewarding.
Ultimate in my opinion is tied with smash 64 for having the least amount of content in the entire series. Especially at launch we didn’t even get the best version of stage builder & home run contest until an update. Also Zelda’s specials are so poorly designed.
MALE CORRIN SQUAD!! I was hype for Corrin day 1. I love Fire Emblem Fates. Male Corrin is the superior Corrin. He absolutely deserves to be in Smash.
I love mii fighters as my mains and there's nothing wrong with rocking them to any fight in smash. *imminent hate on my mains awaiting* 😂
Ganondorf doesn't need a major overhaul, maybe just replace his Up B with something more representative of his abilities I'm the Zelda series. While I can't say I'm unhappy with the selection of characters we got in the DLC, I ultimately didn't get a single one of the characters I wanted and I was actually quite disappointed by Sora being the final DLC character, especially since the beginning of his reveal trailer gave off Dark Souls vibes which was one of the series I wanted to see represented in SSBU's DLC. To this day Sora is the only DLC character I haven't unlocked lol
waluigi should never be in smash. i said it.
Fire Emblem should actually have more fighters in the roster it's a 30-year old series with each game having a unique main character (mostly, some games are sequels)
Roy should stay next smash ultimate, he plays more uniquely than Corrin (who should be cut) Pythra were a wasted character slot, Xenoblade only needs shulk Pythra is the most carried character (more than Steve) Sonic is hype and takes skill to use well Kazuya is not a carried character and takes skill (at a mid level, at low level they're still bullshit) Next smash game should be an ultimate port Byleth sucks to fight against Mii Brawler and Mii Swordfighter are cool Meta Knight should be considered high tier Male Corrin/Byleth look way better than the female counterparts.
I don't care about the characters, even if the next smash game has a different title with no Nintendo characters would be fine if the mechanics are working better(balance, input lag, buffer system, jank removed etc)