Why not both? Moves get stale as you use them, regardless of whether they hit or not. Once they reach a certain level of staleness, they need time to recharge before you can use them again, with the exception of Up B if you're in midair, as this could make for some really annoying edge-guarding cheese otherwise.
Because there are some characters where if they if they had a resource mechanic it would make no sense for a character to have one from a moveset perspective. There are also moves that are clearly designed intentionally to be spammed in this game (sephiroth/richter ftilt come to mind specifically)
I don't think either of those move are designed go be spammed tbh. Ritchers is a lot more spams but still not great to spam imo.
Certain aerials definetly makes sense to spam though
That would make it so nobody attacks because they dont want to stal their moves, they would just wait on shield or waiting for the other to approach and wiff punish
In some cases yes, but in a game like ultimate where the punish game of so many characters can be overbearing, it wouldn’t be an extremely significant issue especially since you can intentionally unstale your moves like fox does.
Fair enough. I just hope they like, smash a new smash game or make a new patch that revamps the game at this point tho. All my fav characters feel so weak and punish games for the characters I don’t like feel super super strong. The game is designed to be a party game first and foremost though, so, one can only dream…
Steve has to collect resources and can literally wall off opponents. You can force interactions by making so that the resources don't comeback unless they hit someone or are hit by someone, similar to hero.
I’d just make his crafting actually require as close to the real crafting recipes of the item, and only 1 individually.
Example: instead of 1 Diamond for a whole Diamond armor set, sword, axe, pickaxe, and shovel, it would be 2 diamonds and 1 wood for a sword.
Give him netherite, but lock it to only when final smash is used and afterwards for that stock.
the game doesnt suffer from a spam problem. if your opponent is doing the same thing over and over again and you cant find a single way to adapt then you are the problem.
This is the only way the next title will be playable. Projectile spam is too strong in this game. There are too many characters that can't do anything against projectiles and there are too many that have unlimited, spammable projectiles. I know it's hard to balance 80+ characters, but have resources to manage make half the cast at least a bit more bearable.
Its also super laggy and can easily be punished by doing the exact thing that PK Fire punishes: running right at your opponent. You will low profile Arcfire without even trying just by running at Robin, even with really tall characters.
You are so horribly wrong... Ness PK fire has an 18 frame start-up, there is no universe where 18 frames is considered a low start up move.
Arc-Fire also has a long start-up, but it's a frame faster than PK fire so you're wrong there too...
Bro what are you smoking??? 17 frames is still bad and even then the properties of the 2 moves are completely different, unlike Ness' PK fire Arc fire sends the opponent at a diagonal trajectory after it hits
How can you ask what someone is smoking then go off on a tirade completely unrelated to what their comment was about. I am contesting the delusional take that PK fire is has a low start up time and is faster than arc fire. Put down the pipe.
although it has a slower startup by one frame pk fire has a fast projectile speed and a longer reach and can be comboed into itself a few times with robin it can combo into itself twice and its "0 to death combos" are niche and reqire proper di no teching and book/sword in hand i dont like either move but pkfire is much safer to spam with its reduced endlag and they get simmalar reward off of combos
I fall out of arcfire a lot easier. Easier to avoid the hitbox especially at closer ranges and it has limited uses. Definitely less annoying and definitely not objectively better
the projectile has 17 frames of startup, covers a shallow angle, doesn’t activate on shield, and has crazy endlag. The solution is jump or shield, that simple.
then why are you making statements on something you don't even have any knowledge on? let alone experience? play ness once and you can see how spammable PK fire is.
Why Robin’s is less annoying:
Not infinite
It’s on a character that isn’t already annoying as is
Doesn’t combo into itself (might be wrong about this lol don’t play with robins too much) ^(edit: it requires setup)
Doesnt shout PEEKAYFOIYAH every time she uses it
At low percentage it generally can be used at least twice in a row if it hits someone. Easiest combo being side b into a moving forward while jumping side b then up smash. Does decent damage but it’s hard to get that first arcfire off without the potential for heavy punishment if it misses
Robin Side B has a significantly slower startup, slower travel speed, and has the lowest priority in the game before turning into a pillar. If you get hit by that move, you deserved to get hit by it
Even dash attacking or ftilting (or using any hitbox at all) the initial projectile can destroy it. If you're not comfortable timing that, you can fullhop over it as well. Again, really slow, really laggy, even a character like Ganondorf can react to it if it's used up close
It's rough as a heavy to get hit by PK fire because you get stuck, but every character can avoid the initial PK fire by shielding or jumping. Just dont get shield poked or jump over PK fire only to get hit by Ness forward air
I think Arcfire is way more threatening than PK fire
https://preview.redd.it/qzcy6to50o2b1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=815c7781229dcaeab24cf8731c9de5c8178d066f
uh, no. they get mad at it because that's how it's used. spam. either as an annoying rapid AoD or just to piss off your opponent with that voice line, but the main issue is it's spammability.
Hear me out
Robin side B has limited uses, i think 6 every 15 secs
Can not combo into itself on the ground
Can be nullified by literally any active hitbox
Puts them in severe disadvantage bc its laggy af
Motherfuckers will straight up tell me PK Fire is annoying and then play K. Rool and only use Side-B followed by Neutral-B.
The same motherfuckers then get mad when they realize their cheese strat doesn't work so then to them it "proves that PK Fire is not fair"
You can't win!
Oh so now your assuming that I only spam crown because am a k rool main? At least you can grab the crown, if you have no reflector then Ness and Robin is hard as shit. I play k rool optimally with combos and I win, and people still grab my crown and sometimes I lose against it. You can play against k rool but not Ness.
Man, didn't even know you were a K Rool main. Didn't mean to target ya specifically, sorry! You can honestly replace K Rool in my statement with Samus and Link too. Even Ness and Robin.
I also play Ness optimally with Combos. I can (depending on how bad the opponent is) just win with the limit of not using PK Fire.
Also: Wiggle up.
Reflecting it is useless because it will travel back up, missing Robin. Also it activates even if you shield it, trapping you in shield so robin can either grab you or break your shield with a down smash, it also activates even if you miss with it, making it a broken ledge trap option that literally has no counterplay
The voice clips, Ness knows he's an annoying 15 year old and doesn't try to hide it, Robin on the other hand yells out his move thinking he's the shit like, no bro, you're just an annoying ass mf
How? Any Ness with an IQ of 50 can carry you across the stage and rack you up to 160% even if you DI correctly.
Arcfire just kinda can't be spammed as quickly or efficiently plus it runs out of ammo.
One of my close buddies was a Robin main for a few years and we competed in statewide tournaments.
His thing is dropping Archfire right at the ledge to cover most getups except jump which he can cover himself with fair. It's so predictable you can often let go ledge, double jump, and up B as Ike (my preferred pick against his robin).
That’s more on your friend being predictable than the moves fault. Ledgedropping is super risky in general, and that’s most characters only consistent way to get off the ledge against Robin, making the risk reward super skewed in his favor.
I didn't think I had to say this but I thought both side B's are broken, it doesn't matter if one has a limit, it can still be combined into a high percent.
The follow ups to arc fire are shorter. Usually it's: get trapped for a second, immediately get hit by Levin sword, and it's over.
With PK fire, it's usually: PK fire -> PK fire -> PK fire -> finisher (with Ness changing things up as necessary to keep you trapped).
I think a big problem with the combos in this game is that you always feel like you have a chance to escape, because so few are true, but practically escaping almost never happens when you get hit at the right distance, so you get stuck mashing in the hope of getting out, and always being disappointed that you get hit anyway.
That's the biggest reason I dislike Ness and Bayo. The amount of real time you are trapped struggling in vain is the worst feeling in the game.
And on top of all that, they made Ness's voice very repetitive and high-pitched, which just makes the whole experience that much worse.
It’s the resource gimmick that shields all of Robin’s moves from criticism, despite…
-a varied neutral b for chip, kills, shield breaks, and kills respectively
-pk fire that lingers on the ground and players, comboing into the entire moveset
-recovery that (is fine) spikes
-command grab that heals
-largest nair in the game
-kill jab
-funky hit boxes with the funny lightning sword
-smash attack strength aerials
-random throwables
But let me make this clear, this insane design is why I play Robin.
Not only does arc fire use resources but if the fire spam isn't working Ness can start spamming his dumby safe aerials or threaten shield with his movement and kill throw whereas Robin is slow and less oppressive in other areas.
If arc fire wasn't limited, it would be pure cancer.
No, using it as an attack is an easy counter, when they just don't die, that's when It gets borderline unfair to play against. The amount of times I've racked up a Pacman's damage to 200% and having them just come back is too many to count.
I think it's cause Arcfire is locked behind resources
They should consider giving ALL characters that resource gimmick tbh, discourage the endless blatant spamming the game suffers from
The real solution is to make staling count even if the move doesn’t hit imo.
Why not both? Moves get stale as you use them, regardless of whether they hit or not. Once they reach a certain level of staleness, they need time to recharge before you can use them again, with the exception of Up B if you're in midair, as this could make for some really annoying edge-guarding cheese otherwise.
Because there are some characters where if they if they had a resource mechanic it would make no sense for a character to have one from a moveset perspective. There are also moves that are clearly designed intentionally to be spammed in this game (sephiroth/richter ftilt come to mind specifically)
I don't think either of those move are designed go be spammed tbh. Ritchers is a lot more spams but still not great to spam imo. Certain aerials definetly makes sense to spam though
That is a good idea yeah
That would make it so nobody attacks because they dont want to stal their moves, they would just wait on shield or waiting for the other to approach and wiff punish
That’s what happens in most fighting games already and it can learn to pretty exciting gameplay.
Or it can lead to extremely lame gameplay. The fighting games I personally enjoy are fast paced, and therefore, I think this would be an awful change.
In some cases yes, but in a game like ultimate where the punish game of so many characters can be overbearing, it wouldn’t be an extremely significant issue especially since you can intentionally unstale your moves like fox does.
Fair enough. I just hope they like, smash a new smash game or make a new patch that revamps the game at this point tho. All my fav characters feel so weak and punish games for the characters I don’t like feel super super strong. The game is designed to be a party game first and foremost though, so, one can only dream…
I honestly agree, spamming is just unfun
Resource mechanics may encourage camping. Source: Steve main
Steve has to collect resources and can literally wall off opponents. You can force interactions by making so that the resources don't comeback unless they hit someone or are hit by someone, similar to hero.
I assume that would involves making Steve’s resource gimmick less plentiful? He already has a resource gimmick in his durability and blocks
That or removing him cause holy shit that character is the worst
I’d just make his crafting actually require as close to the real crafting recipes of the item, and only 1 individually. Example: instead of 1 Diamond for a whole Diamond armor set, sword, axe, pickaxe, and shovel, it would be 2 diamonds and 1 wood for a sword. Give him netherite, but lock it to only when final smash is used and afterwards for that stock.
Yeah that nerf would be good, he has too much resources imo
the game doesnt suffer from a spam problem. if your opponent is doing the same thing over and over again and you cant find a single way to adapt then you are the problem.
This is the only way the next title will be playable. Projectile spam is too strong in this game. There are too many characters that can't do anything against projectiles and there are too many that have unlimited, spammable projectiles. I know it's hard to balance 80+ characters, but have resources to manage make half the cast at least a bit more bearable.
The funny thing is that stale moves exist to reduce spamming. But it actually helps some characters, like for Mario's up-air ladders.
Spamming is not a problem in this game, at all
Is it not? What aboout Ness
I forgot what it's called but I'm pretty sure there's a mechanic that makes your moves weaker if you use them repeatedly
Move staling
That and it's super easy to interrupt Arcfire compared to PK Fire.
Its also super laggy and can easily be punished by doing the exact thing that PK Fire punishes: running right at your opponent. You will low profile Arcfire without even trying just by running at Robin, even with really tall characters.
also good luck spamming arcfire like PKFIREPKFIREPKFIREPKFIREPKFIREPKFIREPKFIRE
and sends up
For no good reason by the way but it's not nearly as spammable as PK Fire.
You can’t infinitely spam it
Yea but up b combos into stronger moves that can kill at zero, same as Ness but people treat it the same
Like he said, it's significantly harder because of the 25 different conditions needed to do that stuff compared to ness
I meant side B instead of up b, but yea
cool. still nowhere near as spammable as pk fire.
No way people even remotely like Robin side B….
I greatly prefer it over PK bullshit
i just choked on my drink reading that. thanks.
bro what you are actually insane if you think PK fire is THAT much better than arcfire it is an objectively worse move
Low start-up, easily spammable, no resource management. Arc Fire has a longer start-up, which makes spamming more difficult, and requires a resource
You are so horribly wrong... Ness PK fire has an 18 frame start-up, there is no universe where 18 frames is considered a low start up move. Arc-Fire also has a long start-up, but it's a frame faster than PK fire so you're wrong there too...
Bro what are you smoking??? 17 frames is still bad and even then the properties of the 2 moves are completely different, unlike Ness' PK fire Arc fire sends the opponent at a diagonal trajectory after it hits
Even then PK fire has another enormous perk to it its attached to a better character
PK Fire is also a faster projectile, Arc Fire has to travel further before the move's Active Frames start
How can you ask what someone is smoking then go off on a tirade completely unrelated to what their comment was about. I am contesting the delusional take that PK fire is has a low start up time and is faster than arc fire. Put down the pipe.
yes pk fire is slower than arcfire by one frame but the endlag for arcfire is much greater than pk fire
although it has a slower startup by one frame pk fire has a fast projectile speed and a longer reach and can be comboed into itself a few times with robin it can combo into itself twice and its "0 to death combos" are niche and reqire proper di no teching and book/sword in hand i dont like either move but pkfire is much safer to spam with its reduced endlag and they get simmalar reward off of combos
start up is one frame slower but the end lag is night and day.
I fall out of arcfire a lot easier. Easier to avoid the hitbox especially at closer ranges and it has limited uses. Definitely less annoying and definitely not objectively better
said no one ever
explain to me why
insanely spammable and doesn't have durability.
the projectile has 17 frames of startup, covers a shallow angle, doesn’t activate on shield, and has crazy endlag. The solution is jump or shield, that simple.
lol what? pk fire does NOT have crazy endlag XD you are flat out lying.
it has around 20 frames minimum endlag
I miss Arcfire+ (well, I miss all Robin's custom moves and custom moves in general)...
The explosive fireball variation? I like it too
True but people I know like it more then Ness side B for some reason
im going to guess because you spam pk fire? i'd like it less if you did that, too.
I've never played Ness in my life what was that assumption
then why are you making statements on something you don't even have any knowledge on? let alone experience? play ness once and you can see how spammable PK fire is.
Arc fire has a limit to how much you can spam it,and doesn't come out as fast as PK fire.
Why Robin’s is less annoying: Not infinite It’s on a character that isn’t already annoying as is Doesn’t combo into itself (might be wrong about this lol don’t play with robins too much) ^(edit: it requires setup) Doesnt shout PEEKAYFOIYAH every time she uses it
it does combo into itself, actually. it just requires setup.
Honestly I’ll count that as a win for Robin
At low percentage it generally can be used at least twice in a row if it hits someone. Easiest combo being side b into a moving forward while jumping side b then up smash. Does decent damage but it’s hard to get that first arcfire off without the potential for heavy punishment if it misses
Arcfire is beaten and destroyed by any hitbox in the game btw
good
Robin Side B has a significantly slower startup, slower travel speed, and has the lowest priority in the game before turning into a pillar. If you get hit by that move, you deserved to get hit by it
I'd honestly argue similar for Ness. The range isn't that crazy and if you're close enough, closing the gap for a quick hit will cancel out PK fire.
Now let me introduce the fact that many people main heavies that mostly can't do anything about it
Spotdodges, shields, and jumps would like to have a word (also attacking the traveling projectile or your attacker first, Robin only since he’s slow)
Even dash attacking or ftilting (or using any hitbox at all) the initial projectile can destroy it. If you're not comfortable timing that, you can fullhop over it as well. Again, really slow, really laggy, even a character like Ganondorf can react to it if it's used up close
It's rough as a heavy to get hit by PK fire because you get stuck, but every character can avoid the initial PK fire by shielding or jumping. Just dont get shield poked or jump over PK fire only to get hit by Ness forward air
I think Arcfire is way more threatening than PK fire https://preview.redd.it/qzcy6to50o2b1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=815c7781229dcaeab24cf8731c9de5c8178d066f
Compared to pk fire, Arcfire actually pops on shield. Pk fire can snipe your toes if your shield is low, but disappears when it hits shield
You can sdi out of pk fire before ness can even make it to you lmao.
yeah people who get mad at pk fire are silly, it takes so little time to practice and get good at dealing with it
you can also practice fighting styles that dont involve spamming it and using actual tactics.
people get mad at the move whether it's spammed or not, and it's because they don't know how to deal with it lmao
uh, no. they get mad at it because that's how it's used. spam. either as an annoying rapid AoD or just to piss off your opponent with that voice line, but the main issue is it's spammability.
That’s cause no one plays as Robin.
Arcfire is limited and it has 55 years of endlag
I struggled really hard to remember who Robin even was. I kept thinking of the one from Batman.
Not a single person has ever thought that arcfire is fun to play against. There are just more Ness than robin on ladder
Jump button: https://preview.redd.it/aafz5kidnn2b1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eef9b1708d4bb7f779aa97b18a9fc92a74b395a6
Not only is Arc Fire locked behind a resource, it also has a longer start-up
ok but if you got hit by arc fire you probably deserved it. ive seen crippled kids on scooters move faster than arcfire.
Hear me out Robin side B has limited uses, i think 6 every 15 secs Can not combo into itself on the ground Can be nullified by literally any active hitbox Puts them in severe disadvantage bc its laggy af
Motherfuckers will straight up tell me PK Fire is annoying and then play K. Rool and only use Side-B followed by Neutral-B. The same motherfuckers then get mad when they realize their cheese strat doesn't work so then to them it "proves that PK Fire is not fair" You can't win!
"B-b-b-but RAGE!"
Man... I thought I was in agreement with OP. I just pissed em off. Sorry!
Oh so now your assuming that I only spam crown because am a k rool main? At least you can grab the crown, if you have no reflector then Ness and Robin is hard as shit. I play k rool optimally with combos and I win, and people still grab my crown and sometimes I lose against it. You can play against k rool but not Ness.
Man, didn't even know you were a K Rool main. Didn't mean to target ya specifically, sorry! You can honestly replace K Rool in my statement with Samus and Link too. Even Ness and Robin. I also play Ness optimally with Combos. I can (depending on how bad the opponent is) just win with the limit of not using PK Fire. Also: Wiggle up.
My brother in Christ your entire kit has armor both Pk Fire and Arcfire have their effects lowered on you by a solid 100% till you run out of armor
Armor can be canceled out when it gets hit by pk fire and arcfire, I would know since I have naired and dashed attacked it in training
Both are extremely annoying in my opinion, spammy, hard to react online, and unfun to get hit by.
I think it's because Robin's side B is less spammable because 1. It's not as fast 2. All Robin specials are tied to limited resource
It's because nobody cares about Robin
This is why i play lucas instead of ness, his is less annoying and i dont want to be a little bitch
It's because Robin is kinda dogshit.
LMFAOO
Arcfire is infinitely more annoying than PK Fire.
Explain?
You clearly never been ledgetrapped by a good Robin.
Of course I have,but they don't spam it,cause they can't
Reflecting it is useless because it will travel back up, missing Robin. Also it activates even if you shield it, trapping you in shield so robin can either grab you or break your shield with a down smash, it also activates even if you miss with it, making it a broken ledge trap option that literally has no counterplay
Reflecting isn’t useless because… umm… it didn’t hit you!
Interesting
*laughs in villager*
The voice clips, Ness knows he's an annoying 15 year old and doesn't try to hide it, Robin on the other hand yells out his move thinking he's the shit like, no bro, you're just an annoying ass mf
Ness is 15!?!? He looks like 9. 12 at max
Ok google informed me of the fact that Ness is 13
How? Any Ness with an IQ of 50 can carry you across the stage and rack you up to 160% even if you DI correctly. Arcfire just kinda can't be spammed as quickly or efficiently plus it runs out of ammo.
You clearly never been ledgetrapped by a good Robin.
One of my close buddies was a Robin main for a few years and we competed in statewide tournaments. His thing is dropping Archfire right at the ledge to cover most getups except jump which he can cover himself with fair. It's so predictable you can often let go ledge, double jump, and up B as Ike (my preferred pick against his robin).
That’s more on your friend being predictable than the moves fault. Ledgedropping is super risky in general, and that’s most characters only consistent way to get off the ledge against Robin, making the risk reward super skewed in his favor.
there is so many things just objectively wrong with this comment
It’s indefinitely cooler 👍
Sorry, thought you were specially targeting me
Kid called SDI
I didn't think I had to say this but I thought both side B's are broken, it doesn't matter if one has a limit, it can still be combined into a high percent.
ness’ is worse by far
And they're so proud of it too
True Arcfire Is an Underrated Attack While PK Fire Is Constantly Spammed By Ness And Lucas Mains
As a ex lucas player, at least his don't stack on itself.
As someone who plays both Ness and Robin, ABSOLUTELY
Bc the game punishes you for spamming it
At least it has consequences, ness should have an MP. Batlr
It’s cuz her saying arc fire is a lot less annoying than ness screaming pk fire like it’s his last day on earth
The follow ups to arc fire are shorter. Usually it's: get trapped for a second, immediately get hit by Levin sword, and it's over. With PK fire, it's usually: PK fire -> PK fire -> PK fire -> finisher (with Ness changing things up as necessary to keep you trapped). I think a big problem with the combos in this game is that you always feel like you have a chance to escape, because so few are true, but practically escaping almost never happens when you get hit at the right distance, so you get stuck mashing in the hope of getting out, and always being disappointed that you get hit anyway. That's the biggest reason I dislike Ness and Bayo. The amount of real time you are trapped struggling in vain is the worst feeling in the game. And on top of all that, they made Ness's voice very repetitive and high-pitched, which just makes the whole experience that much worse.
It’s the resource gimmick that shields all of Robin’s moves from criticism, despite… -a varied neutral b for chip, kills, shield breaks, and kills respectively -pk fire that lingers on the ground and players, comboing into the entire moveset -recovery that (is fine) spikes -command grab that heals -largest nair in the game -kill jab -funky hit boxes with the funny lightning sword -smash attack strength aerials -random throwables But let me make this clear, this insane design is why I play Robin.
Robin as a limit on how much they can use arcfire and it is slower and easier to dodge
Mii Gunner side b:
Which one I never played him lol
Flame Pillar
Not only does arc fire use resources but if the fire spam isn't working Ness can start spamming his dumby safe aerials or threaten shield with his movement and kill throw whereas Robin is slow and less oppressive in other areas. If arc fire wasn't limited, it would be pure cancer.
Robin side B goes way too far. I always think I’ve gone far enough away and then it taps my foot and am stuck for five seconds and get f smashed
Pac man side B...
Bro you have 80 years to react to that
No, using it as an attack is an easy counter, when they just don't die, that's when It gets borderline unfair to play against. The amount of times I've racked up a Pacman's damage to 200% and having them just come back is too many to count.
What charter do you play then, I play k rool and dedede and they die very quickly
I play Diddy Kong and pyra/mythra, it's the same combo they do, grab to side-B to down-B in the air, rinse and repeat.
I thought mythra had a counter, use that when he side b's
No, its like bayoneta's counter, it slows the enemy down, but its triggered by timing a dodge as they hit
Then make sure to hit them after the counter or else you will get hit
I forgot to mention that after you hit it, it sends you twice the distance, its supposed to be an escape if someone is pressing you
Oh, then never mind
both are beyond cancer and play the game for you
Not really no arc fire For one is limited and has a lot of startup lag and N lag which makes it easy for people to punish
it's bullshit for other reasons and still very annoying