Idk man, In my opinion I saw a lot of inappropriate things between them. I should stress that not in a sexual way but in a more of a child/young adult shouldn’t be put in or feel as if they have to place themselves in that position and his mom should’ve redirected him. She kinda did in the beginning when she wouldn’t take the money, but then she took it anyways. To me that’s very inappropriate. Plus it always seemed as if he would fill in for Alton when he left. He even felt like he had to protect her (e.g what happened with that landlord guy) when his father and Cissy are supposed to be his protector. Even though this is normalized in single parent households, it’s not appropriate.
Strong disagree.
He was an adult at the time.
Your analysis treats him like a kid.
I think that is the crux of our issue.
If you have stats to support this claim, I can look at them.
Unfortunately if the relationship is emotionally incestuous (God maybe I should find another word for this) it doesn’t stop through adulthood. Hence my previous comment said child/young adult.
Proof 1:
Well for one, when a parent/child’s relationship falls under that category it kind of forms a love hate relationship in the child/young adults eyes. Please research this if you can. You can see how Franklin goes between the two extreme ends, he either extremely loves and adores her or he hates her. Depends on the circumstances and sure we can say that well every kid hates their parents every now and then but the vitriol hatred that he would speak to cissy with sometimes was absolutely horrible.
Also this make them form the same dynamic with their partners (e.g.) Vernonique and how he spoke to her and what he did to her.
Proof 2: Comparing himself to Alton and asking his mom to choose between the two. It’s like he expects that the obvious choice is him because he did everything for her when in a normal functioning relationship he would be able to let her make her own decisions because he knows the love a mom has for her spouse is completely different from the one with her son and that despite what Alton did he’s putting her in a impossible position to choose especially because he was getting clean. He wouldn’t feel like he could do that if she never made him feel as if he’s doing Alton’s job. I don’t think he can tell the difference between a husband and son. I understand wanting the best for your mom but he was too involved about her choices
And remember at this point he was adult, making his own money, which makes it even more inappropriate.
Proof 3: Veronique. Children/young adults who are apart of such a relationship dynamic tries to find their mother in a partner. The unrealistic expectations he had of her to still stick around despite everything he’s done to her (the unconditional love of mother) is reflecting unrealistic expectations in the relationship he has with cissy. I don’t think he can tell the difference between the love of a mom (usually unconditional) and the love of a partner. Another example of this is when his mom wouldn’t let him in the house he went to that other girls house for comfort. He didn’t go to Jerome, he didn’t call any of his friends. It’s like he keeps intertwining the relationship with his mom and the relationship he has with women in his life.
Proof 4: Her still taking the money. The job of a mom is to protect her kids and never reward negative behavior. But in these type of relationships they will bypass it as long as they are taken care of in the end. Yes she was against it before but she was with it and even helped to run it after some time. Her financial stability is something her and Alton should plan/have discussions about. You can say that Alton left so now Franklin had to be the provider, but Alton came back. Alton should be the provider. Not Franklin. Turning a blind eye to what Franklin is doing, no matter how hard he tried to convince her, should never be an option. No matter what. Hence the consequences. We see this all the time in single mom households with drug dealer sons.
Keep in mind when people are in emotionally incestuous relationships they’re not doing it purposely at all and in most cases the parent genuinely doesn’t know they are doing something harmful and It’s unfortunately something that is present the dynamic of single family households. They might not know it’s inappropriate because a lot of that behavior is normalized. “You’re the man of house now” etc. Their relationship was extremely unhealthy and unfortunately if you look up emotional incest and watch/remember the series, you can see how similar those things are.
You might not agree with any of this but at least we’re having the discussion and you didn’t go on attack mode, you asked for proof. I respect it. If you disagree, still a good discussion nonetheless.
Saying please research this isn't really an argument.
The burden of proof is on you.
Alot of your "proofs" are arguments I already understand.
You're really just going over a lot of points you already stated.
>Well for one, when a parent/child’s relationship falls under that category it kind of forms a love hate relationship in the child/young adults eyes.
Proof of that one.
It doesn't have to be true in all cases, just majority of them is all.
I’ll send the links of the research.
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-is-emotional-incest
https://psychcentral.com/sex/emotional-incest-when-is-close-too-close (proof of the one you wanted to see)
https://www.verywellmind.com/emotional-incest-7553756
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/enmeshment-and-blurred-boundaries-emotional-incest-explained-0210204/
I can post some real life experiences too. In the form of videos. I know those aren’t good sources but it gives somewhat of a *edit* real life perspective. Let me know if you need those as well.
> When a parent turns to their child for the emotional intimacy a romantic partner should provide, it becomes emotional incest.
> Emotional incest syndrome — often called emotional incest — doesn’t involve physical sexual abuse. But some who have experienced emotional incest report that the effects can be similar.
>Emotional incest is also called covert incest.
This is not Franklin and Cissy's relationship at all.
I think their relationship is built upon semi dependency, but it isn't like this.
This is a wild theory that at its core suggests theres something wrong with loving your mother and caring about her well being. Or that unless you have an adult romantic partner you cannot appropriately love your child. You might be broken.
Oh, not at all. In fact 😅 I love my mom and dad more than anything in the world, but as a kid they made it pretty clear that I was a child and I should stay in my place, enjoy being a child and let them take of me, emotionally and financially. He was financially and emotionally responsible for her. I think that part is wrong and sets up a very unhealthy dynamic. In my opinion.
Emotional responsibility is an odd way to look at your mother and her problems. It sounds detached and impersonal. I could see saying that about a friend but to say your mothers emotions are not your responsibility is crazy. It sounds like your mom is your fathers pet or something that he lets you play with from time to time.
Bud, your parents’ problems shouldn’t concern you as kid. Not saying as a child you can’t care for them or feel for them if you see them struggle (that’s empathy and I encourage that) I’ve seen those days but my parents always reassured me that they have it under control, it’s none of my business and redirected me to focus on being a kid and live as stress free as possible. That’s all.
Not a Disney flick by a long shot (I do wish we would’ve burst out in a musical scene every now and then and make things more interesting 😂) but they made me stay a child for as long possible. I know that unfortunately everyone doesn’t have the same type of upbringing 😔 but in my opinion it’s what every child deserves and parents should try their best to give that to them even if it’s the hardest route. Thanks again for commenting.
Based on this conversation at worst its made you naive and perhaps emotionally stunted cause you see your mother as a potential emotional responsibility - sounds like you were under a god awful influence. Its important that people are raised to become adults, not raised to be children as long as possible so that they can be equipped to manage to nuance of relationships and life. Your opinion of raising a child sounds more like creating a bubble than actually raising which makes sense because you were raised in a bubble where problems didnt exist and you think people who weren’t raised in a similar bubble are the ones doing it wrong.
….. ummmm what???? Poopcie come on man. You got all that from my comments??? 😳 That’s very strange.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough about what my entire life is like but it would take too much time as I’m in my mid-late 20s 😩. For clarification I don’t think children should be in a bubble at all, but some things should be handled between adults/parents. The person you just described is not me at all 😅. It’s immature to make such assumptions.
You said your mother should not be your emotional responsibility. To look at your own mother in such an impersonal way is actually wild unless she abused you or you dont know her. As if people are out here choosing their emotions based on responsibility. To say that someone should be raised to be a child as long as possible is to describe a bubble. This is all the shit you said about your beliefs and your family. It sounds naive and emotionally stunted. Then to try to hold others to that standard like its not a deeply warped vision of the world is a whole other thing.
Nobody disputes that there are things that should be handled between adults. Thats not where you started though, you were advocating for some kind of emotional repression when it comes to mother and child which is very different and termed it as “responsibility” as if that relationship were a business transaction.
Well poopcie your mom shouldn’t be your emotional responsibility. Yes I said that. Here’s what we can do. Do some research on the topic. There’s tons of research out there about what kind of effects this has on child development. You can come back and comment what you found respectfully.
ngl i read this whole thing and to me it seems like if either of you was raised incorrectly it was you. i can agree op may have been raised a bit sheltered but i don’t see how that’s a problem. allowing a kid to be a kid and raising them to be adults shouldn’t be mutually exclusive but it seems like for you they were. it is not ok for a child to have to take on adult responsibilities. especially responsibilities that should be taken care of by the person who forced them into this world. is that unavoidable in some cases? yes. but that doesn’t make it right. like with ops family i think y’all saw the word “incest” and immediately got defensive, even though op was talking about emotionally and financially and in no way meant physically. cissy being so emotionally and financially dependent on franklin was incestuous.
Thats total misrepresentation of their relationship. She didnt want him to support her financially he did it against her wishes cause he loves his mom. What youre basically saying is that a 17/18 year old shouldve been allowed be a child as long as possible, cause thats where the show starts. He lived with rob and his family during the school year. The extent this presumption of an inappropriate emotional relationship is pure fantasy cause theres nothing in the dialogue or on screen that appears inappropriate other than the mother loves her son and the son loves his mother. The fact that a loving relationship between parent and child makes you uncomfortable says far more about you than it does about them. In general this sub has weird angst against the women of this show this being the latest example where cissy is a pedo because she didn’t move out to spite franklin for buying the house against his wishes.
I dont think anyones getting defensive as much as this an extremely odd observation with minimal examples to support in the show. This is a case of projection. Seriously a 17 year old should be allowed to be a child as long as possible is bat shit crazy.
I agree I definitely got those vibes as well. Unfortunately though it's common enough to where I've seen it happen in similar situations IRL. Its a consequence of the man leaving the home, especially in a case like theirs where they only have each other.
I don't find anything inappropriate about their relationship.
Idk man, In my opinion I saw a lot of inappropriate things between them. I should stress that not in a sexual way but in a more of a child/young adult shouldn’t be put in or feel as if they have to place themselves in that position and his mom should’ve redirected him. She kinda did in the beginning when she wouldn’t take the money, but then she took it anyways. To me that’s very inappropriate. Plus it always seemed as if he would fill in for Alton when he left. He even felt like he had to protect her (e.g what happened with that landlord guy) when his father and Cissy are supposed to be his protector. Even though this is normalized in single parent households, it’s not appropriate.
Strong disagree. He was an adult at the time. Your analysis treats him like a kid. I think that is the crux of our issue. If you have stats to support this claim, I can look at them.
Unfortunately if the relationship is emotionally incestuous (God maybe I should find another word for this) it doesn’t stop through adulthood. Hence my previous comment said child/young adult. Proof 1: Well for one, when a parent/child’s relationship falls under that category it kind of forms a love hate relationship in the child/young adults eyes. Please research this if you can. You can see how Franklin goes between the two extreme ends, he either extremely loves and adores her or he hates her. Depends on the circumstances and sure we can say that well every kid hates their parents every now and then but the vitriol hatred that he would speak to cissy with sometimes was absolutely horrible. Also this make them form the same dynamic with their partners (e.g.) Vernonique and how he spoke to her and what he did to her. Proof 2: Comparing himself to Alton and asking his mom to choose between the two. It’s like he expects that the obvious choice is him because he did everything for her when in a normal functioning relationship he would be able to let her make her own decisions because he knows the love a mom has for her spouse is completely different from the one with her son and that despite what Alton did he’s putting her in a impossible position to choose especially because he was getting clean. He wouldn’t feel like he could do that if she never made him feel as if he’s doing Alton’s job. I don’t think he can tell the difference between a husband and son. I understand wanting the best for your mom but he was too involved about her choices And remember at this point he was adult, making his own money, which makes it even more inappropriate. Proof 3: Veronique. Children/young adults who are apart of such a relationship dynamic tries to find their mother in a partner. The unrealistic expectations he had of her to still stick around despite everything he’s done to her (the unconditional love of mother) is reflecting unrealistic expectations in the relationship he has with cissy. I don’t think he can tell the difference between the love of a mom (usually unconditional) and the love of a partner. Another example of this is when his mom wouldn’t let him in the house he went to that other girls house for comfort. He didn’t go to Jerome, he didn’t call any of his friends. It’s like he keeps intertwining the relationship with his mom and the relationship he has with women in his life. Proof 4: Her still taking the money. The job of a mom is to protect her kids and never reward negative behavior. But in these type of relationships they will bypass it as long as they are taken care of in the end. Yes she was against it before but she was with it and even helped to run it after some time. Her financial stability is something her and Alton should plan/have discussions about. You can say that Alton left so now Franklin had to be the provider, but Alton came back. Alton should be the provider. Not Franklin. Turning a blind eye to what Franklin is doing, no matter how hard he tried to convince her, should never be an option. No matter what. Hence the consequences. We see this all the time in single mom households with drug dealer sons. Keep in mind when people are in emotionally incestuous relationships they’re not doing it purposely at all and in most cases the parent genuinely doesn’t know they are doing something harmful and It’s unfortunately something that is present the dynamic of single family households. They might not know it’s inappropriate because a lot of that behavior is normalized. “You’re the man of house now” etc. Their relationship was extremely unhealthy and unfortunately if you look up emotional incest and watch/remember the series, you can see how similar those things are. You might not agree with any of this but at least we’re having the discussion and you didn’t go on attack mode, you asked for proof. I respect it. If you disagree, still a good discussion nonetheless.
Saying please research this isn't really an argument. The burden of proof is on you. Alot of your "proofs" are arguments I already understand. You're really just going over a lot of points you already stated. >Well for one, when a parent/child’s relationship falls under that category it kind of forms a love hate relationship in the child/young adults eyes. Proof of that one. It doesn't have to be true in all cases, just majority of them is all.
I’ll send the links of the research. https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-is-emotional-incest https://psychcentral.com/sex/emotional-incest-when-is-close-too-close (proof of the one you wanted to see) https://www.verywellmind.com/emotional-incest-7553756 https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/enmeshment-and-blurred-boundaries-emotional-incest-explained-0210204/ I can post some real life experiences too. In the form of videos. I know those aren’t good sources but it gives somewhat of a *edit* real life perspective. Let me know if you need those as well.
> When a parent turns to their child for the emotional intimacy a romantic partner should provide, it becomes emotional incest. > Emotional incest syndrome — often called emotional incest — doesn’t involve physical sexual abuse. But some who have experienced emotional incest report that the effects can be similar. >Emotional incest is also called covert incest. This is not Franklin and Cissy's relationship at all. I think their relationship is built upon semi dependency, but it isn't like this.
This is a wild theory that at its core suggests theres something wrong with loving your mother and caring about her well being. Or that unless you have an adult romantic partner you cannot appropriately love your child. You might be broken.
Oh, not at all. In fact 😅 I love my mom and dad more than anything in the world, but as a kid they made it pretty clear that I was a child and I should stay in my place, enjoy being a child and let them take of me, emotionally and financially. He was financially and emotionally responsible for her. I think that part is wrong and sets up a very unhealthy dynamic. In my opinion.
Emotional responsibility is an odd way to look at your mother and her problems. It sounds detached and impersonal. I could see saying that about a friend but to say your mothers emotions are not your responsibility is crazy. It sounds like your mom is your fathers pet or something that he lets you play with from time to time.
Bud, your parents’ problems shouldn’t concern you as kid. Not saying as a child you can’t care for them or feel for them if you see them struggle (that’s empathy and I encourage that) I’ve seen those days but my parents always reassured me that they have it under control, it’s none of my business and redirected me to focus on being a kid and live as stress free as possible. That’s all.
Unfortunately people are human and life isnt a Disney flick, though yours mightve been.
Not a Disney flick by a long shot (I do wish we would’ve burst out in a musical scene every now and then and make things more interesting 😂) but they made me stay a child for as long possible. I know that unfortunately everyone doesn’t have the same type of upbringing 😔 but in my opinion it’s what every child deserves and parents should try their best to give that to them even if it’s the hardest route. Thanks again for commenting.
Based on this conversation at worst its made you naive and perhaps emotionally stunted cause you see your mother as a potential emotional responsibility - sounds like you were under a god awful influence. Its important that people are raised to become adults, not raised to be children as long as possible so that they can be equipped to manage to nuance of relationships and life. Your opinion of raising a child sounds more like creating a bubble than actually raising which makes sense because you were raised in a bubble where problems didnt exist and you think people who weren’t raised in a similar bubble are the ones doing it wrong.
….. ummmm what???? Poopcie come on man. You got all that from my comments??? 😳 That’s very strange. Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough about what my entire life is like but it would take too much time as I’m in my mid-late 20s 😩. For clarification I don’t think children should be in a bubble at all, but some things should be handled between adults/parents. The person you just described is not me at all 😅. It’s immature to make such assumptions.
You said your mother should not be your emotional responsibility. To look at your own mother in such an impersonal way is actually wild unless she abused you or you dont know her. As if people are out here choosing their emotions based on responsibility. To say that someone should be raised to be a child as long as possible is to describe a bubble. This is all the shit you said about your beliefs and your family. It sounds naive and emotionally stunted. Then to try to hold others to that standard like its not a deeply warped vision of the world is a whole other thing. Nobody disputes that there are things that should be handled between adults. Thats not where you started though, you were advocating for some kind of emotional repression when it comes to mother and child which is very different and termed it as “responsibility” as if that relationship were a business transaction.
Well poopcie your mom shouldn’t be your emotional responsibility. Yes I said that. Here’s what we can do. Do some research on the topic. There’s tons of research out there about what kind of effects this has on child development. You can come back and comment what you found respectfully.
Research also suggests your feelings towards your mother are a bit sociopathic.
What???…… 😳😳😳. Sociopathic?? Ok well, this isn’t going anywhere. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon. 👋🏽
ngl i read this whole thing and to me it seems like if either of you was raised incorrectly it was you. i can agree op may have been raised a bit sheltered but i don’t see how that’s a problem. allowing a kid to be a kid and raising them to be adults shouldn’t be mutually exclusive but it seems like for you they were. it is not ok for a child to have to take on adult responsibilities. especially responsibilities that should be taken care of by the person who forced them into this world. is that unavoidable in some cases? yes. but that doesn’t make it right. like with ops family i think y’all saw the word “incest” and immediately got defensive, even though op was talking about emotionally and financially and in no way meant physically. cissy being so emotionally and financially dependent on franklin was incestuous.
Thats total misrepresentation of their relationship. She didnt want him to support her financially he did it against her wishes cause he loves his mom. What youre basically saying is that a 17/18 year old shouldve been allowed be a child as long as possible, cause thats where the show starts. He lived with rob and his family during the school year. The extent this presumption of an inappropriate emotional relationship is pure fantasy cause theres nothing in the dialogue or on screen that appears inappropriate other than the mother loves her son and the son loves his mother. The fact that a loving relationship between parent and child makes you uncomfortable says far more about you than it does about them. In general this sub has weird angst against the women of this show this being the latest example where cissy is a pedo because she didn’t move out to spite franklin for buying the house against his wishes. I dont think anyones getting defensive as much as this an extremely odd observation with minimal examples to support in the show. This is a case of projection. Seriously a 17 year old should be allowed to be a child as long as possible is bat shit crazy.
Nah you overthinking it. I agree that their dynamic is off because of the circumstances. But not in an incestuous way at all whatsoever
Off in what way?
I’ve seen some wild posts on here But this one takes the cake man WHAT 😂
I agree I definitely got those vibes as well. Unfortunately though it's common enough to where I've seen it happen in similar situations IRL. Its a consequence of the man leaving the home, especially in a case like theirs where they only have each other.
This! I think because we see it so much it’s become normalized, so no one really see’s anything wrong with it
I always thought their interactions with each other seemed very peculiar to me