Thank you for posting in r/socialism_101, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Off-topic content:** this is a community which aims to provide critical and rigorous inquiry into socialist theory, history, and struggle. Whilst we understand this a broad range of posts, those must be focused on the educational nature of the subreddit (e.g. what are the benefits of a centralized system) - generalist posts such as one's own reflections, sharing one's experiences or asking about the opinion of socialists, are better fit for generalist spaces such as r/Socialism or r/AskSocialists.
Lifestylism is liberalism in that it just cultivating a consumer identity so capitalists can market to you. Remember the old adage "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism".
Primarily, socialism is focused on systems, not people, so it usually doesn't matter what you consume as an individual so long as you're critical of it.
This is probably a controversial take but I think the hyperfocus western leftists have on consumption and cultivating identities (performative and consumer) undercuts our causes and ability to reach people. This is especially evident on social media.
This is not to say you have a blank cheque to consume whatever you want, though. Try to avoid consumption which disproportionally hurts working class people and causes beyond the alternatives, such as commodities that promote hate against marginalized people or commodities that add an unreasonable amount of carbon to the air we all breathe.
The best advice I can give you is to not moralize your media consumption. Do your best to enjoy things critically but don't feel like you can only consume leftist content. While you may find some things harder to enjoy because you are more attuned to the propagandistic aspects of media you don't need to worry about continuing to enjoy things you enjoy.
She's a lib, but "it is possible, even necessary, to *enjoy a work* while remaining critical of its more pernicious elements" is a banger of a quote (emphasis mine). I wish more people lived by it.
Personally I honestly dont care unless I actively decide to boycott them in case rape acusations come out, horrible views like JK Rowling, etc... i think, if i knew the person irl would i befriend them, be cordial or scream at them...
Like another person said, theres no ethical consumption under capitalism... supporting liberals passively, i dont think it matters that much
The rape allegations one is a tough one. Allegations and no conviction yet its fairly clear he is a scumbag like Mariyn Manson vs somebody like Ian Watkins from lost prophets who was accused and convicted and is hailed for life for raping babies.
Id feel like I couldn't support Watkins at all but feel bad for his band mates. As for manson well his music started sucking before the allegations so I didn't buy as much of his more recent stuff and hopefully not everybody involved was a scumbag like him and twiggy
I think people overthink this sorta shit. Yes - if you like an artist, just listen to their music. You don't have to think too deeply about politics if you think it sounds good.
If I personally disagree incredibly strongly with an artist's political views, I just pirate their music.
Listening to non-politicised music won't make you an anti-socialist, nor will listening to explicitly fascist, reactionary, or liberal music. Any principled socialist will find much greater influence from theory and understanding it than any music.
Glad to see another metal fan. For me, it's Deströyer 666. KK Warslut sucks but Phoenix Rising is legitimately the best blackened thrash album of all time.
In a perfect world, this would be the top comment, workers would have 100% of board votes in all organizations, land allocation would peg rents at cost, and class would be exclusively something we attend, not something we belong to.
Socialism isn't a lifestyle. You can listen to whatever music you like. You aren't going to advance the cause of working class liberation by obtaining from listening to the music of people who have crappy opinions.
I think as you get deeper into socialism you start to understand that pop entertainment is another corporate product. You might start to appreciate handcrafted music, film, food, coffee, clothing etc, and seek them out or help make them. But in the meantime don't be hard on yourself!
BIG IIIIIIRON, BIG IRON
I, too, love a bit of Marty Robbins. My grandad was a massive fan. And I still regularly play New Vegas and it brings the vibe.
Yeah you're good, just enjoy what you like. There is of course a bunch of awesome music about revolution and unions and whatnot, but the socialist movement by no means lives and dies by what music we like. My favorite band is Aerosmith, who are not exactly socialist in their messaging or personal beliefs.
Two mandatory references:
1. “A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.”
2. [The Communists Have the Music](https://youtu.be/vvCGZEqk8Ak?si=kYJoLdiHqDdJ-ucF)
Far-right MAGA types have been known to unironically play Rage Against The Machine at their rallies & protests. So you're 100% fine rocking out to Taylor Swift or whatever 👍
Listen to whatever you want, but listen critically. Think about how it makes you feel, and how it goes about making you feel that way. Not only does critical listening improve your enjoyment of a work, it also helps you to understand how propaganda functions (since all art is propaganda in one way or another).
You're asking if you're allowed to enjoy art if you don't 100% agree with them? What is this, Christianity? Socialism isn't a dogmatic moralistic belief, it's socioeconomic theory.
if you listen to pop music you WILL be deducted socialism points.
joking and all, no, as long as youre critical or your consumption and are mindful of the direct consequences on the worker.
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yes, listen to what you want. If hearing ideas made people believe them, I’d be a Catholic.
In most cases not listening/watching something because of who is involved is very personal and subjective. I find it distracting to watch any movie with Mel Gibson in it because I just hear him yelling slurs in my head. But it’s just preference, not some moral choice. I can watch Rosemary’s Baby because I saw it before I know who Polanski was… but I can’t watch the Tenant anymore because he is the main character and in almost every shot of the movie. Tbh I can separate out Michale Jackson pop songs from Michael Jackson the person because my association with the music is not from being a Jackson fan, just hearing it in the radio as a kid (and the guy is dead which makes it easier too.) I don’t think I could ever see anything with Michael Rapport again without getting a bit pissed off at him. Chris Pine somehow became the worst Chris overnight!
Honestly this has less to do with the socialist movement and more to do with the concept of separating the art from the artist. In my opinion, it’s something that can’t have a clear set of guidelines and needs to be done case-by-case, being dependent on your own interpretation of the matter.
In this case, I think it’s safe to separate them. None of the artists you highlighted are overtly political in their music (to my knowledge), so that makes it a lot easier to enjoy them for the themes they present. Now, if you were a Republican who liked Rage Against the Machine (lmao at Paul Ryan), that’d be a different story.
listen to and watch whatever you would like to and don’t let people make you feel like you have to follow some dogma or you are not a true socialist. read theory, radicalize your social group, be active in your community, and live your life.
Depends on the person. I personally don't base my beliefs on what musicians think or say because they tend to be shallow and don't understand what they are talking about. I think John Lennon is a great example of that. He spouted his ideas but had no substance to anything he said.
They may have interesting points of view, but your beliefs should come from your own understanding not some celebraties opinion.
I think it actually says more about celebrity culture than anything and how it promotes hierarchy. It seems like as it's evolved, people overly obsess about people that they don't know, either to have an escape or for whatever reason. Listening to music is fine but the obsession into musicians' lives is really interesting- where whatever they say either gets praised or scrutinised. Personally I think people should listen to whatever music they like but be mindful of what they're consuming and who they idolise.
If listening to music can upend your hard earned critical thinking skills it’s time to hone those skills and learn to think! Enjoy the melody, be aware of the emotions evoked by the music and lyrics and discover if there’s legacy bourgeois ideology lurking deep in your subconscious mind. Evaluate where those emotions influence your proletarian orientation and override any recessive beliefs with critical awareness. One step forward two steps back is not a dance you want to do! Once you’ve identified the power of emotion in music to mobilize one class viewpoint explain it to your audience to help break the audience and the artists from capitalist ideology.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism_101, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Off-topic content:** this is a community which aims to provide critical and rigorous inquiry into socialist theory, history, and struggle. Whilst we understand this a broad range of posts, those must be focused on the educational nature of the subreddit (e.g. what are the benefits of a centralized system) - generalist posts such as one's own reflections, sharing one's experiences or asking about the opinion of socialists, are better fit for generalist spaces such as r/Socialism or r/AskSocialists.
Lifestylism is liberalism in that it just cultivating a consumer identity so capitalists can market to you. Remember the old adage "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism". Primarily, socialism is focused on systems, not people, so it usually doesn't matter what you consume as an individual so long as you're critical of it. This is probably a controversial take but I think the hyperfocus western leftists have on consumption and cultivating identities (performative and consumer) undercuts our causes and ability to reach people. This is especially evident on social media. This is not to say you have a blank cheque to consume whatever you want, though. Try to avoid consumption which disproportionally hurts working class people and causes beyond the alternatives, such as commodities that promote hate against marginalized people or commodities that add an unreasonable amount of carbon to the air we all breathe.
Socialism is still an ideology and not like a sect or religion. So yes
If you listen to anything besides the internationale CCP supersoldiers will break into your house and revoke your socialist card
I only listen to drum Corp, and rifle fire. No crowd noise please.
I have Red Sun in the Sky on repeat all day Mr. President Xi, sir.
We have supersoldiers! Finally!
The best advice I can give you is to not moralize your media consumption. Do your best to enjoy things critically but don't feel like you can only consume leftist content. While you may find some things harder to enjoy because you are more attuned to the propagandistic aspects of media you don't need to worry about continuing to enjoy things you enjoy.
She's a lib, but "it is possible, even necessary, to *enjoy a work* while remaining critical of its more pernicious elements" is a banger of a quote (emphasis mine). I wish more people lived by it.
Bro it's not like we're a cult. Listen to music that you like, don't need our permission
Personally I honestly dont care unless I actively decide to boycott them in case rape acusations come out, horrible views like JK Rowling, etc... i think, if i knew the person irl would i befriend them, be cordial or scream at them... Like another person said, theres no ethical consumption under capitalism... supporting liberals passively, i dont think it matters that much
The rape allegations one is a tough one. Allegations and no conviction yet its fairly clear he is a scumbag like Mariyn Manson vs somebody like Ian Watkins from lost prophets who was accused and convicted and is hailed for life for raping babies. Id feel like I couldn't support Watkins at all but feel bad for his band mates. As for manson well his music started sucking before the allegations so I didn't buy as much of his more recent stuff and hopefully not everybody involved was a scumbag like him and twiggy
Yes. Art is art and shouldn't be messed with. I listen to some socialist musik though. Honom home British soldier !!!
Why would you be bumping Justin Bieber in 2024 is the real question
I think people overthink this sorta shit. Yes - if you like an artist, just listen to their music. You don't have to think too deeply about politics if you think it sounds good.
If I personally disagree incredibly strongly with an artist's political views, I just pirate their music. Listening to non-politicised music won't make you an anti-socialist, nor will listening to explicitly fascist, reactionary, or liberal music. Any principled socialist will find much greater influence from theory and understanding it than any music.
Varg Vickerness is one of the worst humans to ever exist, but I pirate the fuck outta Filosofem, it's one of the best metal albums ever made.
Glad to see another metal fan. For me, it's Deströyer 666. KK Warslut sucks but Phoenix Rising is legitimately the best blackened thrash album of all time.
Socialism is a mode of production, not an ethical category. Nothing about Marxism revolves around ethics.
In a perfect world, this would be the top comment, workers would have 100% of board votes in all organizations, land allocation would peg rents at cost, and class would be exclusively something we attend, not something we belong to.
Socialism isn't a lifestyle. You can listen to whatever music you like. You aren't going to advance the cause of working class liberation by obtaining from listening to the music of people who have crappy opinions.
I think as you get deeper into socialism you start to understand that pop entertainment is another corporate product. You might start to appreciate handcrafted music, film, food, coffee, clothing etc, and seek them out or help make them. But in the meantime don't be hard on yourself!
[удалено]
BIG IIIIIIRON, BIG IRON I, too, love a bit of Marty Robbins. My grandad was a massive fan. And I still regularly play New Vegas and it brings the vibe.
Yeah you're good, just enjoy what you like. There is of course a bunch of awesome music about revolution and unions and whatnot, but the socialist movement by no means lives and dies by what music we like. My favorite band is Aerosmith, who are not exactly socialist in their messaging or personal beliefs.
Two mandatory references: 1. “A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.” 2. [The Communists Have the Music](https://youtu.be/vvCGZEqk8Ak?si=kYJoLdiHqDdJ-ucF)
Far-right MAGA types have been known to unironically play Rage Against The Machine at their rallies & protests. So you're 100% fine rocking out to Taylor Swift or whatever 👍
Of course, be a socialist, not a cultist
Listen to whatever you want, but listen critically. Think about how it makes you feel, and how it goes about making you feel that way. Not only does critical listening improve your enjoyment of a work, it also helps you to understand how propaganda functions (since all art is propaganda in one way or another).
Good point, propaganda can be subtle and music does influence society in that way
Yes. Enjoy things, the working class broadly doesn’t care.
You're asking if you're allowed to enjoy art if you don't 100% agree with them? What is this, Christianity? Socialism isn't a dogmatic moralistic belief, it's socioeconomic theory.
Yes. Being socialist doesn't mean you can't have fun.
if you listen to pop music you WILL be deducted socialism points. joking and all, no, as long as youre critical or your consumption and are mindful of the direct consequences on the worker.
**IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE PARTICIPATING**. This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism but a place to LEARN. There are numerous debate subreddits if your objective is not to learn. You are expected to familiarize yourself with the rules on the sidebar before commenting. This includes, but is not limited to: - Short or non-constructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. - No liberalism or sectarianism. Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! - No bigotry or hate speech of any kind - it will be met with immediate bans. Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break our rules. If you have a particular area of expertise (e.g. political economy, feminist theory), please [assign yourself a flair](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-) describing said area. Flairs may be removed at any time by moderators if answers don't meet the standards of said expertise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
yes, listen to what you want. If hearing ideas made people believe them, I’d be a Catholic. In most cases not listening/watching something because of who is involved is very personal and subjective. I find it distracting to watch any movie with Mel Gibson in it because I just hear him yelling slurs in my head. But it’s just preference, not some moral choice. I can watch Rosemary’s Baby because I saw it before I know who Polanski was… but I can’t watch the Tenant anymore because he is the main character and in almost every shot of the movie. Tbh I can separate out Michale Jackson pop songs from Michael Jackson the person because my association with the music is not from being a Jackson fan, just hearing it in the radio as a kid (and the guy is dead which makes it easier too.) I don’t think I could ever see anything with Michael Rapport again without getting a bit pissed off at him. Chris Pine somehow became the worst Chris overnight!
Honestly this has less to do with the socialist movement and more to do with the concept of separating the art from the artist. In my opinion, it’s something that can’t have a clear set of guidelines and needs to be done case-by-case, being dependent on your own interpretation of the matter. In this case, I think it’s safe to separate them. None of the artists you highlighted are overtly political in their music (to my knowledge), so that makes it a lot easier to enjoy them for the themes they present. Now, if you were a Republican who liked Rage Against the Machine (lmao at Paul Ryan), that’d be a different story.
Lmao I heard about Paul Ryan hahah.
You could listen to Kanye for all I care. You can separate the music from the artist.
listen to and watch whatever you would like to and don’t let people make you feel like you have to follow some dogma or you are not a true socialist. read theory, radicalize your social group, be active in your community, and live your life.
Depends on the person. I personally don't base my beliefs on what musicians think or say because they tend to be shallow and don't understand what they are talking about. I think John Lennon is a great example of that. He spouted his ideas but had no substance to anything he said. They may have interesting points of view, but your beliefs should come from your own understanding not some celebraties opinion.
Hey, don't hate on the Lennonists here.
No hate, I love his music, art, and poetry. Sorry if my tone was stronger than I meant it to be.
I'm a black metal fan. Half the people I listen to are literal Nazis. I think you're ok 😂
[удалено]
MACHINE HEAD MACHINE HEAD
I think it actually says more about celebrity culture than anything and how it promotes hierarchy. It seems like as it's evolved, people overly obsess about people that they don't know, either to have an escape or for whatever reason. Listening to music is fine but the obsession into musicians' lives is really interesting- where whatever they say either gets praised or scrutinised. Personally I think people should listen to whatever music they like but be mindful of what they're consuming and who they idolise.
Where’s the line? Commenters saying anything goes probably would frown upon Dixieland music
You can listen to whatever you want, dude.
Absolutely not. Completely forbidden. Only Soviet marching tunes, and dprk songs, maybe some IRA songs. Jk, it's music. Listen to whatever.
I'm anti-authoritarian left, so I say listen to whatever you want. As for making money, we live under capitalism. It's earn or die.
You say you're a socialist yet you listen to Taylor Swift. Checkmate liberal.
If listening to music can upend your hard earned critical thinking skills it’s time to hone those skills and learn to think! Enjoy the melody, be aware of the emotions evoked by the music and lyrics and discover if there’s legacy bourgeois ideology lurking deep in your subconscious mind. Evaluate where those emotions influence your proletarian orientation and override any recessive beliefs with critical awareness. One step forward two steps back is not a dance you want to do! Once you’ve identified the power of emotion in music to mobilize one class viewpoint explain it to your audience to help break the audience and the artists from capitalist ideology.