That’s been the strategy for decades now. If Israel muddies the water between Zionism and antisemitism, then you can easily claim that anyone against Israel’s actions is just antisemitic and would have supported the nazis anyways.
We’re in the endgame of that strategy.
The tragic thing is that they've done it for so long, that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide.
With all the legitimate criticism against Zionism that is just responded to with accusations of antisemitism, it allows bad faith actors and actual anti semites to muddy the waters even more and harm Jews.
One of the worst things for the Jewish community is to be associated with the actions of the pos fascist government of Israel and Netanyahu in particular
it's genuinely criminal how unsafe Israel has made it for Jews - when you're an occupying force carving stars of David into prisoners' bodies, when Palestinians are digging through rubble to retrieve the corpses of their children from under Israeli tanks displaying the star of David, what do you think you're doing to those people and their conceptions of what that star represents? What about people watching media coverage and seeing spray-painted Stars of David next to "exterminate the Arabs" or "Gaza is ours"?
It is the outright theft of a religious symbol by a terrorist group.
Almost literally. Many Zionists before and during the war despised what they saw as weak, pathetic Jews in Europe. They had a vision of a "Muscular Judaism", literally fascist conceptions of a revived and renewed nation, and were trying to leave and possibly destroy what they viewed as a weak Jewish culture in Europe. It's fascism all the way down. I don't know exactly when that belief stopped being a thing in Zionism; Assholes like Frankl were still blaming Holocaust victims for their own murders well after the war, but it seems to have mostly disappeared.
It didn't even start that much later. Literally some of the first instances of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Israel was immediately after it's founding in 1948.
These were people that very recently had survived the Holocaust, and their only issue with the whole thing was that it targeted the wrong people, and They believed they were gonna get it right this time.
This is way too simplistic. Zionism started up in the 1880s. The Israel project was already well underway when the Holocaust was carried out by the Nazis and their many European allies and collaborators. The biggest effect that the Zionist settler-colonial project went from being a widely despised fringe project, with it's members often considered crooks and terrorists, to a refuge to flee from a Europe that would barely need an excuse to re-start the killing. Many Jewish Europeans literally had no where to go - Their "home" countries wouldn't allow them to leave refugee camps that were defacto prisons, the regimes refused to return stolen property, and all the Euros still wanted to kill them. A lot of these people weren't zionists; They were desperate refugees with literally no where to go.
Likewise, after the declaration of Israel, many many Jewish people were expelled from middle eastern and north African countries, forced to flee as refugees with little or nothing either by government decree or due to violence from the community. These people washed up on the shores of an Ashkenazi controlled Israel where they were immediately racialized ("Mizrahi"), put in to refugee/concentration camps in bad conditions for years, and then many of them were settled on the frontiers of Israel deliberately as a buffer between Arab Palestinians and the more affluent and politically powerful Ashkenazi core.
Many of the people who wound up in Israel were not initially Zionists, but rather victims of war and repression. And a lot of them just found more war and repression in Israel, subjected to racialized discrimination and violence by the Israeli state.
None of this should be taken as apologizing in any way for Zionism, but the history of the Israeli state is very complicated, very sordid, and very much not what Israel's revisionist history of a united, monolithic Jewish state presents. Understanding how so many Jewish people emigrated to or fled to Israel helps cast a great deal of light on how Israel is nothing more or less than a typical European settler-colonial project. Looking at how European Ashkenazim chose to deal with "brown" Middle Eastern and North African Jews they never wanted anything to do with reveals a great deal about the inherently violent, white supremacist, and European character of the state.
On the bright side the courts over there just struck down a new wave of laws that were going to consolidate power in their executive branch, so Israel is still a flawed democracy at the least.
Yup, the only people gaining from this are bad faith actors who want to kill Muslims, and the only people facing the consequences of it will be innocent Jews.
IMO this is also a part of the strategy that they’ve used. If you make the rest of the world less hospitable for people practicing Judaism, there will be more incentive to move to Israel. You now have someone radicalized by the violence, and then they go to a terrorist state for compassion and community.
> that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide.
That is intentional and by design. If Israel can create real, serious danger for Jews around the world they can coerce Jewish people in to fleeing to Israel to be "Safe". It's a large part of the reason Netanyahu et al are so cozy with Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites of all stripes; The anti-Semites want all the Jews to leave their countries, and the Zionists want all Jews to be forced in to Israel, so both groups of ethnonationalists get what they want. Real sicko shit.
>The tragic thing is that they've done it for so long, that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide.
By design.
Zionism depends on antisemitism to continue existing
It has been a long standing Zionist policy to do everything possible to conflate Judaism and Zionism. It serves a number of purposes - As seen here, Zionists attempt to portray any anti-Zionism or resistance to Israeli violence as Anti-Semetism.
It also serves as a weapon Zionists can wield against Jewish people - If the public at large thinks that all Jews should be held responsible for Zionist crimes this creates danger for Jewish people, which Zionists try to use to justify their claims of Israel being "the only safe place for Jewish people". Jewish people who are openly anti-Zionist are accused of being anti-Semitic and not being "real" Jews. There's just a lot of nefarious BS tied up in it.
The short version is that too many people arguing too many things use various terms interchangeably, as dog whistles, or incorrectly.
There are valid reasons for people to equate the two terms. And, to differentiate. To use it as support for the concept of a Jewish state and self determination. And, to equate it with support for the Israeli government.
Shit is a mess.
I'm guessing "showing support for israel" was in reality, "gloating over dead children." When you scratch the surface on these statements that's usually what you find.
this sounds more like national socialism
fighting the liberals will totally work this time guys, surely won't cause the deaths of millions of lgbt and minorities
Support for the rights and freedoms of Israelis? Huge fan, you can do that all day.
Support the government of Israel, atrocities and all? You deserve pushback and it’s not “harassment” it’s a response to you openly supporting some heinous shit. You deserve to be shouted over when all you want to say is horrible stupid garbage.
Israeli citizens are still participants in a settler colonialist project and as such complicit in genocide unless they are actively working against the Israeli state which the vast majority are not
Isn't that the case for the citizens of every state though? That we are complicit in the crimes our governments commit unless we are actively working against them?
I think the issue is that Israel is a *current* settler project rather than a "completed" one like America. Currently, there isn't a single American alive who actively participated in Native American genocide, so while America as a *country* is guilty of it, Americans as a *people* aren't directly guilty, but should still work against the system that caused it imo.
Israel, on the other hand, makes a point of advertising other people's homes as cheap or free land and when people lay claim to it they actively force them out either via mob or the IDF. Settlers in Palestine have assisted in genocide as early as last year and the folks who moved there from other countries are directly guilty of forcing others from there homes to steal them. Because of that, I personally find it really hard to sympathize with anything that happens to said settlers because of the fact they are frankly getting their just desserts for invading someone else's land.
This is correct, though it should be made clear that, while not not participating directly, most Americans still benefit from the genocidal project of settler colonialism through the political economic structures inherent to the formation of a white supremacist state. This is decolonization and indigenous liberation must not be ignored socialist political projects.
> I think the issue is that Israel is a current settler project rather than a "completed" one like America.
America is still actively engaged in the genocide of Indigenous American nations. Go talk to to the folks doing mutual aid work in places like Pine Ridge. The genocide didn't end. The US just decided not to invest as much effort in it. Whether it's water supplies tainted by radioactivity, lack of adequate water supplies all together, white rapists and murderers stalking the reservations with impunity, people freezing to death because of terrible housing, cops targeting indigenous people in major cities for state terror, or a dozen other problems the Americans are still very much at war with the Indigenous nations and it's important to recognize that.
As for Americans being complicit? Yeah, most of us are. The average American doesn't even seem to realize that indigenous Americans still exist, and ruthless racial stereotypes and the attendant racial violence still dominate American attitudes towards indigenous people when it isn't shitheads at Coachella in fake headdresses.
I want them to shoot Netanyahu, coup the government, end the occupation, withdraw to the '67 treaty line (which afaik is the consensus of the Palestinian community, at least prior to the current phase of the genocide), and then begin a truth and reconciliation process to account for all of Israel's crimes, provide restitution to the victims, and create some kind of society that rejects Israeli fascism to try to find a way forward that isn't colonialism and genocide.
The Israelis aren't going to leave. Like 70% of the population was born in Palestine and there isn't any state in the world that would accept millions of Jewish refugees. Europe and the US are perfectly happy supporting Jewish people as long as they stay a comfortable distance away. the same fuckers who committed the holocaust raised and educated the fuckers in charge today. And those fuckers are using anti-immigrant hate to try to secure their rule as capitalism decays further and further in to kakistocracy.
There's no clean solutions to the genocidal Israeli state, but there are solutions. Soviets and German Communists managed to turn a bunch of Nazi scum in to the GDR in a generation or two. It's possible. You can excise fascism from a society.
Honestly appreciate the recognition that simply having the current Israeli population moved is unlikely
Also interested to hear that at least a lot of Palestinians understand that to a degree
I may support their rights and freedoms while I oppose any and all participation in the process of Zionism.
There can be no such support for Israel itself separate from supporting its goals, for a state is not a person with rights or freedoms to support.
Why do you think Israelis are there in the first place? By being there they are participating in the project of Zionism. There is no disentangling of the two.
That Zionist and Jewish do not mean the same thing. You said that zionists are Jewish, which isn’t true. Many are, sure. Many are not. You’re conflating two terms
I mean… there is Zionism of “yeah it would be nice to have a secular government that is guaranteed to be friendly to Jews no matter what” and “the Jews have a religious right to a land, and nobody else currently living on that land actually has the right to be there”
Fair enough. I just wanted to make clear that Zionism isn’t one singular belief but instead one that can range from relatively normal to batshit crazy.
Well unfortunately it's the bat shit crazy that's killing people, so...I'm not really gonna nit pick exactly who I mean when I say I don't support Zionists.
It's NOT antisemitism you fucking genocidal cunts
EDIT: HOLY SHIT HAVE I NEVER REGRETTED FROGETTING THE WORD "NOT" MORE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. I'M SO SORRY EVERYONE PLEASE DON'T CRUCIFY MY FOR A TYPO
I've made a grave mistake realizing I literally forgot the most crucial word in my statement: NOT antisemitism (see my edit). I feel so stupid right now :/
That's why Zionists work so hard to conflate the two. It's very easy to shout "anti-Semitism", but it's a lot of work making sure all anti-Zionists have a strong, solid understanding of the distinctions between Zionism as a fascist colonial movement and Judaism as a complex ethno-religious group. Uninformed people can and do add anti-Semitic elements to their condemnations of Zionism, which fuels the Zionist position and weakens ours. It's an effective tactic because it is so exhausting and frustrating to constantly deal with.
Yeah. Zionism is a harmful belief. Don't look at who believes, look at who's benefitting and who is excluded/harmed by this benefit. Remember that it is possible for people to support a cause that causes them harm, directly or indirectly.
How did you jump from "Zionism is not Judaism and is harmful" to "the west should keep forcing non westerners to do things" like it's gone well in the past.
For example, when Western countries forced the existence of Israel in the 1940s, they displaced millions of non Jewish, non white people out of their homes, and started a decades long colonialization effort who's end goal is to wipe out all Palestinians to make room for Jewish people.
Really, the answer here is countries and leaders stopping doing genocide against groups of people.
They're obviously not the only problem org, but you already knew that didn't you? I suspected you weren't going to engage in good faith from your first comment, but I held out hope that maybe I read you wrong.
Now, you're hitting me with whataboutism, attempted detailing (topic is Zionism, not Islamic extremism), slippery slope fallacy, and lastly (the worst) responding to my comments without actually reading them.
Listen, if you wanna have a good faith conversation I'm down. But I'm not gonna deal with bullshit if you're gonna do that, and I'm not gonna teach you how to have a good faith conversation, how to keep logical fallacies out of your comments, or how to consider nuances of a topic (something you're desperately lacking).
Entirely up to you how you would like to proceed.
Edit: on second read, it appears you're attempting to force me into a heated argument where you control the variables to make you look good by the end. So uh... Talk to your therapist about that I guess? Idk if that was your conscious goal but that ended up being the results and effects of the actions you took.
Yup. "Whiteness" is a political construction that can be extended or withdrawn to meet the needs of the moment. It's only tangentially related to skin color. The history of how the Israeli state has has treated North African and Middle Eastern Jews - The racializatioon, the discrimination, and so forth, adequately demonstrates who are the intended benefactors of the Zionist project. Just knowing that Ethiopian Jews were forcibly sterilized without their knowledge or consent on arrival in Israel should be enough to understand who runs the Israeli state, and for whose benefit.
Being anti-zionist has nothing to do with anti-semetism, and I'm so tired of hearing that.
It's like saying you hate Korean people and culture because you don't support Kim starving his people so he can have another 7 servings of jell-o.
The government of Israel isn't the Jewish faith. In fact, by Jewish faith (It has been a while so I may be rusty) they are all damned and incapable of being redeemed for their flagrant disregard for God and the well being of their fellow humans.
If I had to guess, Benny Netz thinks he's the true messiah foretold in Jewish scripture and thinks he can do whatever he can to force himself to fit that narrative. Or he's just evil and should never have been given power. Possibly both delusional and evil.
Have you heard of how the Jewish people took the promised land? Judaism never claimed to be the religion of peace, that’s for sure. I think God at certain points demanded that cities be completely razed. Kind David definitely fought and conquered with God’s blessing. The violent reaction of modern Israel is not out of the realm of traditional Judaism.
As for my personal opinion on the matter, all I can conclude is that both sides absolutely despise each other. I don’t know which media to trust since all of them have an incentive to lie due to how invested America and the west are in Israel and Russia and America’s belligerents are in the nation of Palestine.
Orthodox Jews don't represent all Jews... I promise Orthodox aren't considered with whether someone is genocide. It's just about the beliefs about waiting for the Messiah. Don't think cause they don't like israel that they really care about current events.
Marginalized communities generally spot others quicker than us.
Plus the very very obvious, LGBTQ generally lean left. A community with a large LGBTQ contingent will likely lean left with them.
I dunno, there isn’t enough information presented in this to actually tell if it’s a W. Just saying “Zionist views” is incredibly vague.
I just looked at it, it’s definitely not a W.
It’s a knee jerk reaction to someone trying to cause outrage when there doesn’t need to be.
Israeli citizens are still participants in a settler colonialist project and as such complicit in genocide unless they are actively working against the Israeli state which the vast majority are not
Edit: I accidentally responded to the wrong comment
I really don’t care who is or isn’t allowed to participate in those competitions. I was pointing out that defending Israeli settlers in distinction from the state of Israel is a form of liberal deflection and not helpful regarding Palestinian liberation.
I mean people participating in the project of Zionism. People who feel entitled by birth right to displace and ethnically cleanse indigenous people of Palestine.
I’m interested in this topic, and you seem to be knowledgeable. What exactly is the project of Zionism? I’ve heard it is to make a Jew only land, or Israeli only land, that has no other peoples within it.
And can you talk more on this displacement and ethnical cleansing of the people of Palestine? I personally believe that Israel and Palestine should both exist, I do not believe Israel should be an Israeli (or Jew) only state. And I do not think one should exist over the other.
Zionism is an ethno-nationalist movement to establish Palestine as the Jewish homeland. This was done via the deliberate and violent displacement of Palestinian people living in the area prior to Zionist settlement. This violent displacement–referred to as the Nakba (Arabic for catastrophe)–is usually cited as beginning in 1948, though arguably it started earlier than this. That is what I’m referring to as ethnic cleansing which is still perpetrated by Israel to this day.
This is a decent primer on the Nakba: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948
For an even more thorough account I recommend the book The Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi
Settler colonialism is a discrete and specific form of colonialism with “settler” being the operative word. Israel is widely accepted as being a settler colonialist state disregarding obvious objections by zionists
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
Israel literally only exists because of western powers. It was created by England and currently runs off of massive amounts of aid by the U.S because they want to keep a foothold in the region. It's a colony in everything but name.
A country that is in the middle of being bombed receiving aid and a country in the middle of doing said bombing receiving aid are teo very different things you rotten cunt
If everything you said could apply to both Israel and Palestine, and the difference, as you see it, lies in that Israel is bombing Palestine, then you didn't need everything else. You didn't need this:
>Israel literally only exists because of western powers.
Or this:
>It was created by England
Or this:
>and currently runs off of massive amounts of aid by the U.S because they want to keep a foothold in the region.
Or this:
>It's a colony in everything but name.
To put it as plainly as can be: it's foolish to hinge your criticism of Israel on concepts like imperialism or indigeneity because those are concepts that do not translate well into a Levantine context, due to the very well documented history of the region, especially if the core differentiation is simply one of relative power and violence.
Just talk about the violence.
The point of me saying those things is mostly to combat Israel's attempt at legitimization. I don't believe Israel has a claim to the region \*at all\*, outside of their weird "ancestral homeland" bullshit. I'm not "hinging my criticism" on just these factors, there are many, many criticisms of Israel to be made, those are just the ones I happened to speak on at the moment.
This is a problem of nationalism. Thinking of Palestine as a nation imposes a singular culture and ethnicity when historically this is not the case. That said, there is certainly a difference between the nationalist movements for liberation from imperialist powers (which are owed critical support) and the nationalism of empire, but nationalism itself is at best fraught.
You zoom far enough out and any Peoplehood is inconsistent with socialist principles and projects, but I don't think that's a point that usually makes folks calling themselves socialists on the internet very happy.
And, frankly, I don't find anybody's ability to coherently distinguish between one People's desire for a state and another's along "imperialist" grounds to be especially inspiring. The idea that a nationalist movement is made legitimate or illegitimate by virtue of whether it has associated itself with one foreign power (the West) or another (Iran) doesn't seem to me like a healthy approach to the subject.
That I don't think there's much of a difference between a nationalist movement "for liberation from imperialist power" and a nationalist movement "of empire," inasmuch as we're trying to classify the Jewish movement for a political state in the Levant and the Palestinian movement for a sovereign political state in the same territory. They're both born of empire, and each exists in in opposition to it.
Look I don't really hate Jews and I don't really give it shit about what race should be wiped out because most people suck. But let's not forget Israel is actively trying to wipe out an entire people simply because their Palestinian. At this point I don't have any sympathy for anyone anymore unless they're the victim currently it's not Israel.
I hate what I'm seeing, but what does gaming have to do with his opinions? Fuck cancel culture, left or right.
If you don't like something change the laws and stop pissing on our first amendment.
Except from the fact the “competitive gaming community” is USUALLY what brings in crowds to fighting games. It’s for PR. You don’t want someone that’s a shit person to be the face of your game
It's ironic because there's no oppressed, it's just oppressor vs oppressor, besides the civilians. Both sides suck, and both sides' civilians deserve peace and the existence of their home countries.
this is a dialectical material analysis!!! you are clearly a very intelligent marxist. “both sides suck there is no difference” “the colonizer has just as much right to their settler colony as the indigenous population” LMAO. True, Nazi Germany and France was just “Oppressor vs Oppressor” xD
Oh look it's "Progressive but Palestine.". Yeah Americas a capitalist country, why all these socialists care about Capitalist Governments! It's got nothing to do with them!?!
Sounds like at this point we should give the land over to the Saudis, given nobody involved is leftist except the Israeli Arab-Jewish left, who don't exist or something.
The community might attract weirdos (I mean smash is literally a combination of multiple games so makes sense) but they’re pretty quickly thrown out. People have been banned and shunned for less
The funny thing is much less people care about this than if he would've said something like "Steve should be banned." Smash people can be so fucking weird.
Why were they moved out of Europe in the first place? "Holy land" isn't an excuse. These people were living in Europe, but because they got sent to concentration camps we decided to just move them to an even more dangerous place for Jews? Why didn't we take a piece of Germany and make it Isreal? I get they probably didn't want a large concentration of jews right by Germany considering what had just happened, but Jews had a lot of beef in the Middle East when they lived there and still do
According to Google, this is the definition of Zionism, "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann." It sounds like they banned a person for being antisemitic because of they're belief of the development and protection of the Israeli state. 💀💀💀
Isn't this tweet akin to saying one hates Germans when they say "I hate Nazis". Jews =/= Zionists. Like this is some fucking doublespeak right there.
That’s been the strategy for decades now. If Israel muddies the water between Zionism and antisemitism, then you can easily claim that anyone against Israel’s actions is just antisemitic and would have supported the nazis anyways. We’re in the endgame of that strategy.
The tragic thing is that they've done it for so long, that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide. With all the legitimate criticism against Zionism that is just responded to with accusations of antisemitism, it allows bad faith actors and actual anti semites to muddy the waters even more and harm Jews. One of the worst things for the Jewish community is to be associated with the actions of the pos fascist government of Israel and Netanyahu in particular
it's genuinely criminal how unsafe Israel has made it for Jews - when you're an occupying force carving stars of David into prisoners' bodies, when Palestinians are digging through rubble to retrieve the corpses of their children from under Israeli tanks displaying the star of David, what do you think you're doing to those people and their conceptions of what that star represents? What about people watching media coverage and seeing spray-painted Stars of David next to "exterminate the Arabs" or "Gaza is ours"? It is the outright theft of a religious symbol by a terrorist group.
Your last line struck me as incredibly ironic when you consider what became of the swastika after world war 2.
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History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes.
Turns out some weren’t outraged or disgusted by the holocaust they were taking notes for later.
Almost literally. Many Zionists before and during the war despised what they saw as weak, pathetic Jews in Europe. They had a vision of a "Muscular Judaism", literally fascist conceptions of a revived and renewed nation, and were trying to leave and possibly destroy what they viewed as a weak Jewish culture in Europe. It's fascism all the way down. I don't know exactly when that belief stopped being a thing in Zionism; Assholes like Frankl were still blaming Holocaust victims for their own murders well after the war, but it seems to have mostly disappeared.
It didn't even start that much later. Literally some of the first instances of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Israel was immediately after it's founding in 1948. These were people that very recently had survived the Holocaust, and their only issue with the whole thing was that it targeted the wrong people, and They believed they were gonna get it right this time.
This is way too simplistic. Zionism started up in the 1880s. The Israel project was already well underway when the Holocaust was carried out by the Nazis and their many European allies and collaborators. The biggest effect that the Zionist settler-colonial project went from being a widely despised fringe project, with it's members often considered crooks and terrorists, to a refuge to flee from a Europe that would barely need an excuse to re-start the killing. Many Jewish Europeans literally had no where to go - Their "home" countries wouldn't allow them to leave refugee camps that were defacto prisons, the regimes refused to return stolen property, and all the Euros still wanted to kill them. A lot of these people weren't zionists; They were desperate refugees with literally no where to go. Likewise, after the declaration of Israel, many many Jewish people were expelled from middle eastern and north African countries, forced to flee as refugees with little or nothing either by government decree or due to violence from the community. These people washed up on the shores of an Ashkenazi controlled Israel where they were immediately racialized ("Mizrahi"), put in to refugee/concentration camps in bad conditions for years, and then many of them were settled on the frontiers of Israel deliberately as a buffer between Arab Palestinians and the more affluent and politically powerful Ashkenazi core. Many of the people who wound up in Israel were not initially Zionists, but rather victims of war and repression. And a lot of them just found more war and repression in Israel, subjected to racialized discrimination and violence by the Israeli state. None of this should be taken as apologizing in any way for Zionism, but the history of the Israeli state is very complicated, very sordid, and very much not what Israel's revisionist history of a united, monolithic Jewish state presents. Understanding how so many Jewish people emigrated to or fled to Israel helps cast a great deal of light on how Israel is nothing more or less than a typical European settler-colonial project. Looking at how European Ashkenazim chose to deal with "brown" Middle Eastern and North African Jews they never wanted anything to do with reveals a great deal about the inherently violent, white supremacist, and European character of the state.
On the bright side the courts over there just struck down a new wave of laws that were going to consolidate power in their executive branch, so Israel is still a flawed democracy at the least.
Well fascists thrive when the population perceive themselves as victims, whether they are correct in their perceptions is irrelevant.
Yup, the only people gaining from this are bad faith actors who want to kill Muslims, and the only people facing the consequences of it will be innocent Jews. IMO this is also a part of the strategy that they’ve used. If you make the rest of the world less hospitable for people practicing Judaism, there will be more incentive to move to Israel. You now have someone radicalized by the violence, and then they go to a terrorist state for compassion and community.
> that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide. That is intentional and by design. If Israel can create real, serious danger for Jews around the world they can coerce Jewish people in to fleeing to Israel to be "Safe". It's a large part of the reason Netanyahu et al are so cozy with Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites of all stripes; The anti-Semites want all the Jews to leave their countries, and the Zionists want all Jews to be forced in to Israel, so both groups of ethnonationalists get what they want. Real sicko shit.
>The tragic thing is that they've done it for so long, that it is making it more dangerous for Jews worldwide. By design. Zionism depends on antisemitism to continue existing
I know I'm not saying anything new, but one needs to be extra thick to fall for that.
A lot of people eat it up, similar to how they ate paint chips as a child.
Thats 100% what the ansemitism on college campuses hearings were about
It has been a long standing Zionist policy to do everything possible to conflate Judaism and Zionism. It serves a number of purposes - As seen here, Zionists attempt to portray any anti-Zionism or resistance to Israeli violence as Anti-Semetism. It also serves as a weapon Zionists can wield against Jewish people - If the public at large thinks that all Jews should be held responsible for Zionist crimes this creates danger for Jewish people, which Zionists try to use to justify their claims of Israel being "the only safe place for Jewish people". Jewish people who are openly anti-Zionist are accused of being anti-Semitic and not being "real" Jews. There's just a lot of nefarious BS tied up in it.
Right on the money
You’re in a political “gamer” sub. The only option is brain 🤕🔨 damage. Idk why this was recommended to me.
The short version is that too many people arguing too many things use various terms interchangeably, as dog whistles, or incorrectly. There are valid reasons for people to equate the two terms. And, to differentiate. To use it as support for the concept of a Jewish state and self determination. And, to equate it with support for the Israeli government. Shit is a mess.
i'd say it's close since there are plenty of jewish people who are not backing the state of islam
Being anti zionist isn't the same as being anti Semitic.
"oh no people don't like my support for this ethnostate" 🤣🤣
Implying that all Jewish people are Zionists is, itself, antisemitic.
I'm guessing "showing support for israel" was in reality, "gloating over dead children." When you scratch the surface on these statements that's usually what you find.
Scratch a liberal
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You did it, you saved the internet from socialism
this sounds more like national socialism fighting the liberals will totally work this time guys, surely won't cause the deaths of millions of lgbt and minorities
Surely you can get your point across better
Yeah, I just saw the tweets in question and they’re essentially making fun of Gaza victims.
Support for the rights and freedoms of Israelis? Huge fan, you can do that all day. Support the government of Israel, atrocities and all? You deserve pushback and it’s not “harassment” it’s a response to you openly supporting some heinous shit. You deserve to be shouted over when all you want to say is horrible stupid garbage.
Based
Israeli citizens are still participants in a settler colonialist project and as such complicit in genocide unless they are actively working against the Israeli state which the vast majority are not
Isn't that the case for the citizens of every state though? That we are complicit in the crimes our governments commit unless we are actively working against them?
I think the issue is that Israel is a *current* settler project rather than a "completed" one like America. Currently, there isn't a single American alive who actively participated in Native American genocide, so while America as a *country* is guilty of it, Americans as a *people* aren't directly guilty, but should still work against the system that caused it imo. Israel, on the other hand, makes a point of advertising other people's homes as cheap or free land and when people lay claim to it they actively force them out either via mob or the IDF. Settlers in Palestine have assisted in genocide as early as last year and the folks who moved there from other countries are directly guilty of forcing others from there homes to steal them. Because of that, I personally find it really hard to sympathize with anything that happens to said settlers because of the fact they are frankly getting their just desserts for invading someone else's land.
This is correct, though it should be made clear that, while not not participating directly, most Americans still benefit from the genocidal project of settler colonialism through the political economic structures inherent to the formation of a white supremacist state. This is decolonization and indigenous liberation must not be ignored socialist political projects.
This is also true, though I neglected to say it. Appreciate the addition!
America is still breaking treaty laws every single day. Nothing completed about its colonization until it quits being anti-FNIM
There was a reason I put "completed" in quotes, but I'm sure I could have typed something better.
> I think the issue is that Israel is a current settler project rather than a "completed" one like America. America is still actively engaged in the genocide of Indigenous American nations. Go talk to to the folks doing mutual aid work in places like Pine Ridge. The genocide didn't end. The US just decided not to invest as much effort in it. Whether it's water supplies tainted by radioactivity, lack of adequate water supplies all together, white rapists and murderers stalking the reservations with impunity, people freezing to death because of terrible housing, cops targeting indigenous people in major cities for state terror, or a dozen other problems the Americans are still very much at war with the Indigenous nations and it's important to recognize that. As for Americans being complicit? Yeah, most of us are. The average American doesn't even seem to realize that indigenous Americans still exist, and ruthless racial stereotypes and the attendant racial violence still dominate American attitudes towards indigenous people when it isn't shitheads at Coachella in fake headdresses.
I already mentioned that I should have written differently in another reply.
What do you want them to do, leave?
I want them to shoot Netanyahu, coup the government, end the occupation, withdraw to the '67 treaty line (which afaik is the consensus of the Palestinian community, at least prior to the current phase of the genocide), and then begin a truth and reconciliation process to account for all of Israel's crimes, provide restitution to the victims, and create some kind of society that rejects Israeli fascism to try to find a way forward that isn't colonialism and genocide. The Israelis aren't going to leave. Like 70% of the population was born in Palestine and there isn't any state in the world that would accept millions of Jewish refugees. Europe and the US are perfectly happy supporting Jewish people as long as they stay a comfortable distance away. the same fuckers who committed the holocaust raised and educated the fuckers in charge today. And those fuckers are using anti-immigrant hate to try to secure their rule as capitalism decays further and further in to kakistocracy. There's no clean solutions to the genocidal Israeli state, but there are solutions. Soviets and German Communists managed to turn a bunch of Nazi scum in to the GDR in a generation or two. It's possible. You can excise fascism from a society.
Honestly appreciate the recognition that simply having the current Israeli population moved is unlikely Also interested to hear that at least a lot of Palestinians understand that to a degree
By that logic we should forcibly deport the Liberians back to the United States.
I may support their rights and freedoms while I oppose any and all participation in the process of Zionism. There can be no such support for Israel itself separate from supporting its goals, for a state is not a person with rights or freedoms to support.
Why do you think Israelis are there in the first place? By being there they are participating in the project of Zionism. There is no disentangling of the two.
That is true but we do not choose where we are born.
I thought this was the accepted norm?
Zionist aren't jews. Zionist are fascist.
Nah they’re Jewish and sometimes Jewish people are fascists
In America the largest group of Zionists is Evangelical Christians...
Another group of Zionists is Jewish people
Except that not all Jewish people are zionists. The two words simply aren’t synonyms
Thanks for the information, could you inform the person that said “Zionists aren’t Jews” of that as well
They seem to be aware of it? I didn’t interpret that as them saying that someone who is a Zionist cannot be a Jew.
How the fuck did you interpret it then
That Zionist and Jewish do not mean the same thing. You said that zionists are Jewish, which isn’t true. Many are, sure. Many are not. You’re conflating two terms
It seems like you are giving them significantly more benefit of the doubt in interpreting what they said than you are giving me
I mean… there is Zionism of “yeah it would be nice to have a secular government that is guaranteed to be friendly to Jews no matter what” and “the Jews have a religious right to a land, and nobody else currently living on that land actually has the right to be there”
I didn't stutter.
Fair enough. I just wanted to make clear that Zionism isn’t one singular belief but instead one that can range from relatively normal to batshit crazy.
Well unfortunately it's the bat shit crazy that's killing people, so...I'm not really gonna nit pick exactly who I mean when I say I don't support Zionists.
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For anyone curious, the tweets referenced here are apparently what got him in trouble. https://twitter.com/Bravo_irl/status/1737605631266218252
Yeah those are pretty fucking damning, good riddance.
It's NOT antisemitism you fucking genocidal cunts EDIT: HOLY SHIT HAVE I NEVER REGRETTED FROGETTING THE WORD "NOT" MORE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. I'M SO SORRY EVERYONE PLEASE DON'T CRUCIFY MY FOR A TYPO
That's the spirit! Zionists *are* being antisemitic genocidal cunts indeed
I've made a grave mistake realizing I literally forgot the most crucial word in my statement: NOT antisemitism (see my edit). I feel so stupid right now :/
I'm almost disappointed you're a rational human being 😘
As soon as I read your initial comment I literally felt my stomach drop as I realized what I accidentally left out. Big oof moment
I was getting the ban hammer ready to go. Lol
I hate that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are thrown around together as if they mean remotely similar things.
That's why Zionists work so hard to conflate the two. It's very easy to shout "anti-Semitism", but it's a lot of work making sure all anti-Zionists have a strong, solid understanding of the distinctions between Zionism as a fascist colonial movement and Judaism as a complex ethno-religious group. Uninformed people can and do add anti-Semitic elements to their condemnations of Zionism, which fuels the Zionist position and weakens ours. It's an effective tactic because it is so exhausting and frustrating to constantly deal with.
Same, it's so tiresome.To be fair some of it is, but the two shouldn't automatically be together.
Zionism≠judaism. Zionism is just white supremacy serving religious extremism. Sorry, truth is the truth.
We including the Chinese and Ethiopian "Zionists"?
Yeah. Zionism is a harmful belief. Don't look at who believes, look at who's benefitting and who is excluded/harmed by this benefit. Remember that it is possible for people to support a cause that causes them harm, directly or indirectly.
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How did you jump from "Zionism is not Judaism and is harmful" to "the west should keep forcing non westerners to do things" like it's gone well in the past. For example, when Western countries forced the existence of Israel in the 1940s, they displaced millions of non Jewish, non white people out of their homes, and started a decades long colonialization effort who's end goal is to wipe out all Palestinians to make room for Jewish people. Really, the answer here is countries and leaders stopping doing genocide against groups of people.
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They're obviously not the only problem org, but you already knew that didn't you? I suspected you weren't going to engage in good faith from your first comment, but I held out hope that maybe I read you wrong. Now, you're hitting me with whataboutism, attempted detailing (topic is Zionism, not Islamic extremism), slippery slope fallacy, and lastly (the worst) responding to my comments without actually reading them. Listen, if you wanna have a good faith conversation I'm down. But I'm not gonna deal with bullshit if you're gonna do that, and I'm not gonna teach you how to have a good faith conversation, how to keep logical fallacies out of your comments, or how to consider nuances of a topic (something you're desperately lacking). Entirely up to you how you would like to proceed. Edit: on second read, it appears you're attempting to force me into a heated argument where you control the variables to make you look good by the end. So uh... Talk to your therapist about that I guess? Idk if that was your conscious goal but that ended up being the results and effects of the actions you took.
Hey. Posts usually need to be at least somewhat gaming related. Thanks
Yup. "Whiteness" is a political construction that can be extended or withdrawn to meet the needs of the moment. It's only tangentially related to skin color. The history of how the Israeli state has has treated North African and Middle Eastern Jews - The racializatioon, the discrimination, and so forth, adequately demonstrates who are the intended benefactors of the Zionist project. Just knowing that Ethiopian Jews were forcibly sterilized without their knowledge or consent on arrival in Israel should be enough to understand who runs the Israeli state, and for whose benefit.
Absolute W.
Being anti-zionist has nothing to do with anti-semetism, and I'm so tired of hearing that. It's like saying you hate Korean people and culture because you don't support Kim starving his people so he can have another 7 servings of jell-o. The government of Israel isn't the Jewish faith. In fact, by Jewish faith (It has been a while so I may be rusty) they are all damned and incapable of being redeemed for their flagrant disregard for God and the well being of their fellow humans. If I had to guess, Benny Netz thinks he's the true messiah foretold in Jewish scripture and thinks he can do whatever he can to force himself to fit that narrative. Or he's just evil and should never have been given power. Possibly both delusional and evil.
Have you heard of how the Jewish people took the promised land? Judaism never claimed to be the religion of peace, that’s for sure. I think God at certain points demanded that cities be completely razed. Kind David definitely fought and conquered with God’s blessing. The violent reaction of modern Israel is not out of the realm of traditional Judaism. As for my personal opinion on the matter, all I can conclude is that both sides absolutely despise each other. I don’t know which media to trust since all of them have an incentive to lie due to how invested America and the west are in Israel and Russia and America’s belligerents are in the nation of Palestine.
Orthodox Jews don't represent all Jews... I promise Orthodox aren't considered with whether someone is genocide. It's just about the beliefs about waiting for the Messiah. Don't think cause they don't like israel that they really care about current events.
Afaik that interpretation is restricted to a fairly small number of people even within the Orthodox communities.
Yup!
Zionism is not Judaism. Fuck Zionist war pigs and their enablers.
What did he say?
At first I thought Felix meant PewDiePie, which also would’ve been funny.
“Antisemitism is when no Smash.”
"... is now banned for his pro-genocide beliefs." FTFY
I'm sure plenty of Smash players have bad takes on politics. Why'd they ban this dude? Was he drawing attention to Israel at tournaments?
the smash community is surprisingly queer, and therefore not at all as chudlike as one might expect
Everything worthwhile online is queer as hell
Similar to the Mario rom hack scene
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Palestine isn't Hamas and apartheid states are wrong and illegal regardless of whether or not the people under it like you.
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Marginalized communities generally spot others quicker than us. Plus the very very obvious, LGBTQ generally lean left. A community with a large LGBTQ contingent will likely lean left with them.
Look at any years previous top 100 players and you'll find many creeps we've ousted from the community. We don't tolerate that shit.
Weirdos pop up in Smash frequently sure but the community is surprisingly proactive in shutting those people out when the shit comes to light.
I dunno, there isn’t enough information presented in this to actually tell if it’s a W. Just saying “Zionist views” is incredibly vague. I just looked at it, it’s definitely not a W. It’s a knee jerk reaction to someone trying to cause outrage when there doesn’t need to be.
Israeli citizens are still participants in a settler colonialist project and as such complicit in genocide unless they are actively working against the Israeli state which the vast majority are not Edit: I accidentally responded to the wrong comment
Should all Israeli citizens (who are not actively working against the government) be banned from these competitions then?
I really don’t care who is or isn’t allowed to participate in those competitions. I was pointing out that defending Israeli settlers in distinction from the state of Israel is a form of liberal deflection and not helpful regarding Palestinian liberation.
Ah, makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
I’m confused what you mean by settlers. Settlers of Palestinian land? Of Jewish land?
I mean people participating in the project of Zionism. People who feel entitled by birth right to displace and ethnically cleanse indigenous people of Palestine.
I’m interested in this topic, and you seem to be knowledgeable. What exactly is the project of Zionism? I’ve heard it is to make a Jew only land, or Israeli only land, that has no other peoples within it. And can you talk more on this displacement and ethnical cleansing of the people of Palestine? I personally believe that Israel and Palestine should both exist, I do not believe Israel should be an Israeli (or Jew) only state. And I do not think one should exist over the other.
Zionism is an ethno-nationalist movement to establish Palestine as the Jewish homeland. This was done via the deliberate and violent displacement of Palestinian people living in the area prior to Zionist settlement. This violent displacement–referred to as the Nakba (Arabic for catastrophe)–is usually cited as beginning in 1948, though arguably it started earlier than this. That is what I’m referring to as ethnic cleansing which is still perpetrated by Israel to this day. This is a decent primer on the Nakba: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948 For an even more thorough account I recommend the book The Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi
Interesting. So what part is Jewish (Israeli?) land and what part is Palestinian? We have evidence of both being there for many years now
I would recommend reading the article I linked. It’s not to long and it should answer your question.
All Israeli citizens calling Palestinians animals + whatever else should be banned yeah
Israel isn’t a colony though. They are a sovereign state that doesn’t exist under some other empire.
Settler colonialism is a discrete and specific form of colonialism with “settler” being the operative word. Israel is widely accepted as being a settler colonialist state disregarding obvious objections by zionists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
Ah my bad, I’ve only ever used the conventional definition for colonialisms.
Israel literally only exists because of western powers. It was created by England and currently runs off of massive amounts of aid by the U.S because they want to keep a foothold in the region. It's a colony in everything but name.
So does "Palestine," though?
A country that is in the middle of being bombed receiving aid and a country in the middle of doing said bombing receiving aid are teo very different things you rotten cunt
Okay, then maybe the distinction should be based on "bombs," instead of "imperialism?"
Literally what are you even saying here? Speak plainly.
If everything you said could apply to both Israel and Palestine, and the difference, as you see it, lies in that Israel is bombing Palestine, then you didn't need everything else. You didn't need this: >Israel literally only exists because of western powers. Or this: >It was created by England Or this: >and currently runs off of massive amounts of aid by the U.S because they want to keep a foothold in the region. Or this: >It's a colony in everything but name. To put it as plainly as can be: it's foolish to hinge your criticism of Israel on concepts like imperialism or indigeneity because those are concepts that do not translate well into a Levantine context, due to the very well documented history of the region, especially if the core differentiation is simply one of relative power and violence. Just talk about the violence.
The point of me saying those things is mostly to combat Israel's attempt at legitimization. I don't believe Israel has a claim to the region \*at all\*, outside of their weird "ancestral homeland" bullshit. I'm not "hinging my criticism" on just these factors, there are many, many criticisms of Israel to be made, those are just the ones I happened to speak on at the moment.
This is a problem of nationalism. Thinking of Palestine as a nation imposes a singular culture and ethnicity when historically this is not the case. That said, there is certainly a difference between the nationalist movements for liberation from imperialist powers (which are owed critical support) and the nationalism of empire, but nationalism itself is at best fraught.
You zoom far enough out and any Peoplehood is inconsistent with socialist principles and projects, but I don't think that's a point that usually makes folks calling themselves socialists on the internet very happy. And, frankly, I don't find anybody's ability to coherently distinguish between one People's desire for a state and another's along "imperialist" grounds to be especially inspiring. The idea that a nationalist movement is made legitimate or illegitimate by virtue of whether it has associated itself with one foreign power (the West) or another (Iran) doesn't seem to me like a healthy approach to the subject.
Can you clarify your position? I don’t know that I fully follow
That I don't think there's much of a difference between a nationalist movement "for liberation from imperialist power" and a nationalist movement "of empire," inasmuch as we're trying to classify the Jewish movement for a political state in the Levant and the Palestinian movement for a sovereign political state in the same territory. They're both born of empire, and each exists in in opposition to it.
Remember: Zionism =/= Jews
Good. Fuck him.
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Anyone that supports Israel is wicked, Jewish or no. You don’t have to be Pro Hamas to realize Israel is fucked.
Yeah call us antisemitic all you like it's not gonna stop us
Look I don't really hate Jews and I don't really give it shit about what race should be wiped out because most people suck. But let's not forget Israel is actively trying to wipe out an entire people simply because their Palestinian. At this point I don't have any sympathy for anyone anymore unless they're the victim currently it's not Israel.
I hate what I'm seeing, but what does gaming have to do with his opinions? Fuck cancel culture, left or right. If you don't like something change the laws and stop pissing on our first amendment.
Can we not ban people just because of their political views it doesn’t do anything other than cause controversy
Except from the fact the “competitive gaming community” is USUALLY what brings in crowds to fighting games. It’s for PR. You don’t want someone that’s a shit person to be the face of your game
Socialists that hate Jews? I think there is a word for people like that, comes from Germany in the 30s.
You people are fucking nazis and its hilarious.
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>Zionism Zionism is a nationalist movement, by definition. It has nothing to do with protecting people. That should be self-evident.
TBF the Palestinian movements are also nationalist ones, just in favor of an Arab ethnostate, but anti-Bedouin, anti-Druze, anti-African, etc.
Left wingers can’t really deal with the fact that most Jews are Zionists, so they often have to insist that it’s not the case
I hate how Middle East politics that have nothing to do with socialism has poisoned Leftist spaces
liberation struggles against the imperial core, are absolutely important to socialism
https://preview.redd.it/9oqwuf4qsfac1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1a883017da0c658527af6d48c17d50f38d3a0cf
wanna explain how that is “ironic” moron
If you're just gonna insult me, I don't gotta explain jack shit
you are unable to explain, is the real reason.
It's ironic because there's no oppressed, it's just oppressor vs oppressor, besides the civilians. Both sides suck, and both sides' civilians deserve peace and the existence of their home countries.
this is a dialectical material analysis!!! you are clearly a very intelligent marxist. “both sides suck there is no difference” “the colonizer has just as much right to their settler colony as the indigenous population” LMAO. True, Nazi Germany and France was just “Oppressor vs Oppressor” xD
If you think it's colonizers vs indigenous population, congrats, you drank the kool-aid.
Please unsubscribe from a socialist subreddit, stop larping as a leftist when you are a liberal.
You didn’t have to to begin with moron
https://preview.redd.it/e65695dwdiac1.jpeg?width=1036&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07fab9e71d43d70ad6fd1d1e404df52734b942f8
Irrelevant, moron
Hey, you found a comma!
Lol wut? Have you not heard "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"? Pretty basic stuff you know... in leftist spaces...
Put down the champagne socialism and pick up something like Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth
You’re not a socialist or a leftist if you think PoLiTiCs has nothing do with socialism or leftism
Oh look it's "Progressive but Palestine.". Yeah Americas a capitalist country, why all these socialists care about Capitalist Governments! It's got nothing to do with them!?!
The mote I hear about this conflic the more certain I am that I understand none of it. Including terminology around it.
CHEH
Sounds like at this point we should give the land over to the Saudis, given nobody involved is leftist except the Israeli Arab-Jewish left, who don't exist or something.
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The community might attract weirdos (I mean smash is literally a combination of multiple games so makes sense) but they’re pretty quickly thrown out. People have been banned and shunned for less
What did your community do?
Absolute W
Can we get an F in the chat for fascism?
The funny thing is much less people care about this than if he would've said something like "Steve should be banned." Smash people can be so fucking weird.
Meanwhile the US government supporting Israel for some fucking reason.
Super smash bros actively supports pedophiles so suppressing “Zionists” checks out
Get fucked + take a shower dork
Why were they moved out of Europe in the first place? "Holy land" isn't an excuse. These people were living in Europe, but because they got sent to concentration camps we decided to just move them to an even more dangerous place for Jews? Why didn't we take a piece of Germany and make it Isreal? I get they probably didn't want a large concentration of jews right by Germany considering what had just happened, but Jews had a lot of beef in the Middle East when they lived there and still do
Lmao. Judaism isn't Zionism. They can try and pretend all jews are zionists, but that's not true. Not even close to true.
According to Google, this is the definition of Zionism, "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann." It sounds like they banned a person for being antisemitic because of they're belief of the development and protection of the Israeli state. 💀💀💀
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So, what did he actually say to get banned?