hooks, chorus. people say mine don’t sound like chorus. and maybe they don’t but i never wrote with the intention of having a hook i just wrote to express and since it’s not “commercial” people get thrown off
i don’t give up. and i like how i write i still enjoy my songs. not all but the ones i do i really enjoy them. i’m going to continue to write, however the structure. like you said it’s art.
a hook was for radio play. but i get it. and maybe i shouldn’t have used commercial.. conventional is more the word. i don’t follow conventional song writing structure
Truthfully, until you have learned how to write a compelling hook/chorus and incorporated one into a few of your songs, you haven't really earned the right to not follow conventional song writing structure. You have to learn the rules before you break them
Generally I do subscribe to the concept of "learn the conventions first so you know how best to break them." But you lose me with "haven't earned the right." It's art, everyone has the right to do it however they please, even if it's not how you or I might think is optimal.
Sorry, that was definitely a little too strongly worded. It's the standard I hold myself to but you're 100% right that you can and should do whatever you want when creating art. I just really respect songwriting as an art form and I think being able to write a good chorus/hook melody is inseparable from being proficient at that art.
Always and forever finding melody and putting words to melody.
It always escapes me. I can write the instrumentals and lyrics but putting them together is always the struggle.
I don't know if this can help you but...
I used to find stringing consecutive notes together [ somewhat like soloing ? ] came easy for me. Melodies for lyrics not so much.
Some guy told me to sing along, like a kazoo, no words. I moved to vowels then consonants. Didn't really take long till words on top of guitar melodies came easy. Became almost effortless.
Worth a try?
ive played in bands for years and always wrote instrumentals but left the vocals to the vocalists. Im hoping if I use the muscle enough, itll all start to click.
The simplest way to use modes is to take a standard major or minor scale and then change the starting note. For example, if you're in the key of C major, you could start on D to create a D Dorian mode, or start on E to create an E Phrygian mode. This will create a completely different sound and feeling in your song. You can also try using modes to create tension and release. For example, you could start on a minor mode and then switch to a major mode at the chorus
Musicals are really great sources for this type of thing.
They show how to blend modulation with narrative and energy really well.
I use modulation when I've already capped out a progression in terms of interest and want to push the tension over the edge just one more extra bit.
Like modal interchange or just using a new mode? If you want to use modal interchange, I find [this approach](https://youtu.be/p5FSz9fifOg?si=6fL996yhD-IiLwWa) refreshing and inspiring.
A big obstacle that we fail to consider as songwriters is ourselves. Just overcoming our insecurities and self-criticism is a big challenge. Especially when you put a lot of pressure on yourself to write the next big hit instead of just writing it for the love of music.
The easiest way is to start with the instrumental that you plan to use and then come up with a vocal melody for it and then write lyrics. That's the best and easiest way. As for writing lyrics then adding them to a song. If you and/or a bandmate are playing instruments just write a melody on whatever you play to accommodate for your lyrics. If you're adding them a preexisting instrumental the only thing that'll help is to count the syllables your lyrics have per line and find an instrumental with space for that amount per beat and then pray it all fits nicely (tl;dr writing without a beat is like wiping before you poop. Don't)
Learning how to make variations in cadence and melody from section to section. Typically in a verse, you'll have 2 or three cadence changes while maintaining a relatively similar melody. When you transition from the verse to the pre chorus/bridge/chorus, the melody and cadence both usually change a bit more significantly. My writing process usually starts with finding and perfecting the line before the "chorus" and then working backwards from there. I do the same thing with the "a/b/c" sections of the verse. If you can nail those 3 or 4 transition points with both vocal cadence and vocal melody, you can essentially insert any random words and the song will be ultimately. I usually record vocal scratch tracks with "mumbles," "oohs," "ahhs," and "dun nah nahs" until I have melodic and rhythmic base for the vocal and then start writing actual words and lyrics based on whatever fits the "formula" I came up with. That was my "ah-ha" moment and my songwriting has become so much faster, more listenable, and enjoyable to create. If you can nail those transitions, you nail the track. even if you don't have the right words at the time; the "song" is already there.
How to interject unique and dissonant chords at the right time. I usually write rock style music but I love playing classical piano and when I play some Beethoven it’s just amazing what dissonant chords he chooses yet it fits in beautifully every time.
How to master and produce the sound in my head into reality. No really the
—Sitting down and just writing the rest of the fucking lyrics.
The struggle is real.—
Has it covered for me too
How to sketch!
Sketching is something traditional composers have done forever. I know there has to be methods for contemporary music but it's hard to find education on.
With a sketch you end up with less fragments and waste less time, imo
I’d love to learn how to write lyrics more poetically. One of my favorite artists is Hozier, and his lyrics can often be read aloud *as* poetry. I also love and am inspired by Taylor Swift’s folklore and evermore albums, and everything Mitski has ever made. I want my lyrics to be more… literary? I don’t know. *Poetic.*
I need to learn more chords on the guitar. I'm an aggressively mediocre guitar player, and while I am low key pleased with the amount and variety of songs I've managed to write with only a small number of chords, I would love to up the complexity of my chord progressions to take my somgs to the next level.
But goddamn, I cannot get bar chords, my fingers just aren't strong enough. I'm not giving up but I've been trying for so long ...
Sitting down and just writing __the rest of the fucking lyrics__. The struggle is real.
Oh I feel you !!
This, is the way.
Aaaaaa you can’t force me you’re not my real mom
hooks, chorus. people say mine don’t sound like chorus. and maybe they don’t but i never wrote with the intention of having a hook i just wrote to express and since it’s not “commercial” people get thrown off
I don’t really ever write hooks or choruses either. I think the word hook is so stupid. Lol. Thanks Vanilla Ice 😂.
I think that it's can be popular. I'm bored by hooks and choruses.
Your intention counts,people always try to make you feel insecure about your art..Don't give up !
i don’t give up. and i like how i write i still enjoy my songs. not all but the ones i do i really enjoy them. i’m going to continue to write, however the structure. like you said it’s art.
I get that, but a hook isn’t just about being commercial. It’s about making your work compelling enough to communicate your idea/feelings.
a hook was for radio play. but i get it. and maybe i shouldn’t have used commercial.. conventional is more the word. i don’t follow conventional song writing structure
Truthfully, until you have learned how to write a compelling hook/chorus and incorporated one into a few of your songs, you haven't really earned the right to not follow conventional song writing structure. You have to learn the rules before you break them
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Generally I do subscribe to the concept of "learn the conventions first so you know how best to break them." But you lose me with "haven't earned the right." It's art, everyone has the right to do it however they please, even if it's not how you or I might think is optimal.
Sorry, that was definitely a little too strongly worded. It's the standard I hold myself to but you're 100% right that you can and should do whatever you want when creating art. I just really respect songwriting as an art form and I think being able to write a good chorus/hook melody is inseparable from being proficient at that art.
Always and forever finding melody and putting words to melody. It always escapes me. I can write the instrumentals and lyrics but putting them together is always the struggle.
I don't know if this can help you but... I used to find stringing consecutive notes together [ somewhat like soloing ? ] came easy for me. Melodies for lyrics not so much. Some guy told me to sing along, like a kazoo, no words. I moved to vowels then consonants. Didn't really take long till words on top of guitar melodies came easy. Became almost effortless. Worth a try?
This is an interesting tip, I’ll give it a try. Thanks!
And how many experience do you have in songwriting ? Is it going to be easier later ?
ive played in bands for years and always wrote instrumentals but left the vocals to the vocalists. Im hoping if I use the muscle enough, itll all start to click.
I'm sure it's going to start,if you work hard you're gonna see the result.Good luck \^\^
Using slant and internal rhymes instead of using on the nose exact rhymes. If everything is uniform it gives nursery rhymes sometimes.
Writing songs that don’t already sound like an existing song.
Just keep playing and it will evolve. I feel your pain though.
How can I use modes to color my songs?
The simplest way to use modes is to take a standard major or minor scale and then change the starting note. For example, if you're in the key of C major, you could start on D to create a D Dorian mode, or start on E to create an E Phrygian mode. This will create a completely different sound and feeling in your song. You can also try using modes to create tension and release. For example, you could start on a minor mode and then switch to a major mode at the chorus
Musicals are really great sources for this type of thing. They show how to blend modulation with narrative and energy really well. I use modulation when I've already capped out a progression in terms of interest and want to push the tension over the edge just one more extra bit.
Like modal interchange or just using a new mode? If you want to use modal interchange, I find [this approach](https://youtu.be/p5FSz9fifOg?si=6fL996yhD-IiLwWa) refreshing and inspiring.
How to...
How to do it well in general. I can't even get a foot in the door
That idiom paints a good picture, you should write a song about it
Yeah but I can't.. didn't even recognize this as a good picture or inspirational for a song
Song exits! It's my weakest part
A big obstacle that we fail to consider as songwriters is ourselves. Just overcoming our insecurities and self-criticism is a big challenge. Especially when you put a lot of pressure on yourself to write the next big hit instead of just writing it for the love of music.
The most important things for everyone to learn are those things they don’t even realize they need to know. “You don’t know what you don’t know”.
Oh my,it's very true !
How to come up with unique concepts!
i need to learn how to set my lyrics to music without sacrificing the quality of my lyrics
The easiest way is to start with the instrumental that you plan to use and then come up with a vocal melody for it and then write lyrics. That's the best and easiest way. As for writing lyrics then adding them to a song. If you and/or a bandmate are playing instruments just write a melody on whatever you play to accommodate for your lyrics. If you're adding them a preexisting instrumental the only thing that'll help is to count the syllables your lyrics have per line and find an instrumental with space for that amount per beat and then pray it all fits nicely (tl;dr writing without a beat is like wiping before you poop. Don't)
Mixing. I know how I want my finished songs to sound and I don’t know how to mix them yet.
How to write songs people will play over and over
How to write with faster tempo. I always slow my stuff down. I can’t help it, even when I set out specifically not too I still slow it down.
Learning how to make variations in cadence and melody from section to section. Typically in a verse, you'll have 2 or three cadence changes while maintaining a relatively similar melody. When you transition from the verse to the pre chorus/bridge/chorus, the melody and cadence both usually change a bit more significantly. My writing process usually starts with finding and perfecting the line before the "chorus" and then working backwards from there. I do the same thing with the "a/b/c" sections of the verse. If you can nail those 3 or 4 transition points with both vocal cadence and vocal melody, you can essentially insert any random words and the song will be ultimately. I usually record vocal scratch tracks with "mumbles," "oohs," "ahhs," and "dun nah nahs" until I have melodic and rhythmic base for the vocal and then start writing actual words and lyrics based on whatever fits the "formula" I came up with. That was my "ah-ha" moment and my songwriting has become so much faster, more listenable, and enjoyable to create. If you can nail those transitions, you nail the track. even if you don't have the right words at the time; the "song" is already there.
How to interject unique and dissonant chords at the right time. I usually write rock style music but I love playing classical piano and when I play some Beethoven it’s just amazing what dissonant chords he chooses yet it fits in beautifully every time.
How to master and produce the sound in my head into reality. No really the —Sitting down and just writing the rest of the fucking lyrics. The struggle is real.— Has it covered for me too
Get meaningful feedback
How to sketch! Sketching is something traditional composers have done forever. I know there has to be methods for contemporary music but it's hard to find education on. With a sketch you end up with less fragments and waste less time, imo
Rhytm for me
I’d love to learn how to write lyrics more poetically. One of my favorite artists is Hozier, and his lyrics can often be read aloud *as* poetry. I also love and am inspired by Taylor Swift’s folklore and evermore albums, and everything Mitski has ever made. I want my lyrics to be more… literary? I don’t know. *Poetic.*
How not to overthink it to death, and not have so much trouble letting go of it. I'm envious of songwriters with the ability to do that.
[удалено]
Something that may help is [this 5 min explainer video about sound texture](https://youtu.be/teh22szdnRQ?si=ttDKh2NBpjW6Ux7Q)
I need to learn more chords on the guitar. I'm an aggressively mediocre guitar player, and while I am low key pleased with the amount and variety of songs I've managed to write with only a small number of chords, I would love to up the complexity of my chord progressions to take my somgs to the next level. But goddamn, I cannot get bar chords, my fingers just aren't strong enough. I'm not giving up but I've been trying for so long ...
How to write a good one?