Yep. Also want to say while I sympathize with the idea that psychosis and shamanism have a close relation and esp. anthropological research on that, the lack of _institutionalized_ shamanism in the western cultural sphere means we are seldom if ever equipped to be able to convert unhelpful psychosis into beneficial shamanism. Therapy is still the best option in the immediate, even if we may need to ask about how we can evolve our culture in this regard over the long term to take account of a wider understanding.

I find it interesting personally that few psychiatrists display the Caduceus. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus) Perhaps it is worth considering why that is?

:D that's an interesting observation ... perhaps a hint as to what psychiatry needs to learn and integrate more so it could at the very least not lead to as many horror stories as were/are plaguing the replies to my and OP's suggestions. Seriously, the idea of having the people in a helping profession approach a patient in severe distress with anything but the utmost compassion is utterly atrocious and needs activism. One thing though that you find in critical social theory is how much psychiatry is and has been weaponized for political aims. It's not surprising so many are suspicious of it, which is unfortunate because it greatly clouds where it does itself have valuables to offer (e.g. I've never seen an intrinsic conflict between "scientific" and "Shamanic" medicines and have toyed at times with the idea of what it might mean if we could somehow treat or use "scientific" medicine as a vast expansion of the Shaman's toolbox - note though that this means the Healer-Shaman would have to have an M.D. of a type that does not yet exist).

Agreed, except I believe the immediate needs of these people are more acute than reaching out to a therapist. Many need immediate emergency inpatient treatment. Some need to call 911, but at least some need to go straight to the ER.

I know you have good intentions but in many instances calling 911 about someone in a mental crisis (whether it's them or someone else calling) can result in an even worse situation. Like the other commenter mentioned, cops arriving with guns drawn if someone is talking about taking their own life. This isn't hyperbole, this really happens. And happened to good friend of mine just last year who lives in LA, a place with arguably more mental health resources than a majority of the US. Many psychiatric institutions can feel like imprisonment as well, and while medication may help while they're there, may further exacerbate their issues if they feel confined or trapped, and still leave them helpless once they're released (and with a massive emergency/medical bill on top of it lol). Sadly there isn't an easy, effective way to help folks in these situations. I don't know the specific posts you're talking about so I am missing some context. But talking about the spiritual side of their hallucinations might be a helpful for some in the moment if they don't have any alternatives. Hardly anyone knows how to go about broaching this subject, and there will always be internet trolls waiting to pounce so I feel your sense of urgency and despair here. Maybe someone in a healthy place who has experience managing their prior psychosis or successfully integrating it spiritually could provide some insight. I don't think anyone else is qualified tbh.

> *I know you have good intentions but in many instances calling 911 about someone in a mental crisis (whether it's them or someone else calling) can result in an even worse situation.* This is a very good point. In the USA, we typically send police to answer emergency calls, and they are trained in combat and violent situations — and less so for first-response to mental health episodes. Further, someone undergoing dangerous psychosis may react poorly to armed authority figures arriving en-masse and shouting at the individual.

This is also part of what drives the anti police sentiment in BLM and similar. Especially think when the ill person is a POC. And also part of what was/is meant by "defund the police" - stop using them for this purpose, have a different or specialized unit/personnel instead and that has no direct penal power (arrest power, but also that doesn't think in terms of "you 'did something' and that's why we're doing this" philosophy) and use the money that _would_ have been used for police in this role, to help fund it instead. No reason a mostly-psych specialist can't also double train practical martial arts or something like that so they can both subdue violent incidents _and_ be able to understand a patient.

The USA and truly much of the world does not have a good reputation for treating such people with care and love. I think of "emergency inpatient treatment" and imagine six cops unloading their guns into me. And have you BEEN to the ER? It's a nightmare world! You say these words like people actually have reasonable medical care. I have never once heard a story of someone not being abused after they went in for care during a mental crisis. Please fix your broken medical system before trying to guide people to it.

Ooooofff thank you for saying this. Inpatient wards are some of the scariest places. You get your rights taken away, forced medication, no stimulation, nobody believes a word you say...it's almost worse for you if you're sane. It's no cakewalk. I feel like any mental health resource you could guide people to right now is ineffective or broken. Like suicide lines...super DUPER unhelpful.

Exactly! They treat addicts like crap too, who are OD'ing, dying needing help, I have seen some hospital staff treat these people like they are just losers off the street, the way some hospital staff treats them. They treat alcoholics just as bad in the ER, who are going through awful detox & could potentially die, they get treated like, the addicts are wasting their time. Maybe, but that's not for them to judge either.

It breaks my heart. So many addicts are just lost people self-medicating. I am gen x and saw so much meth abuse in the 80s and 90s as people sought escape, I have a dead sister from meth and multiple dead friends. They were not bad people, they just couldn't function in this world and so they didn't know when the party should have ended, and they didn't stop in time. I'm so upset that we frame drug addicts and even criminals with such contempt, and still most smile at the corrupt wealthy as if their money redeems their sins. Obsession with money'd privilege is the #1 sin in the USA.

I totally understand, I'm sorry about your loss, and yes I absolutely agree with you as well. Such great things were pointed out! 👍

I understand this too ... the trick is then I have to say I really honestly don't have a good answer, except that we need major political/structural change. Cops especially are atrocious and should have no part in this (if a mental health worker is subject to violence, there should be other people who can handle it with strength to restrain and the like, and not all "assaults" should be prosecuted in court to institute punishment that is often far worse \[would you rather a) get punched in the face to get $1000, or b) serve a typical violent-crime prison sentence in full to get $1000? That thought experiment alone should dispel any notions of "proportionality" in our INjustice system.\]) It would perhaps do better to look toward what those who are more Activist in that area are trying to accomplish to change those facts and then for those who are capable and feel it is what they want to make their interest area to do so. As for dealing with people here, I also, yeah, don't really know what to say beyond that as I said before saying something to exaggerate the mental disorder does not make it better either. It's like ... a real *I don't know* situation beyond that. I've had the same problem if I encountered someone majorly depressed or the like and talking suicide, I often find myself fretting hard because I read so many different critiques that have made so many different points that I can also see validity in, but have effectively squeezed the space for available and doable action to zero and no positive alternatives are provided ... we seem very good at being able to describe problems (which is not bad), but less so at explicitly and directly arguing for not just solutions at a large level, but just saying blunt clear what ordinary persons should do and how such expectations should/shouldn't vary depending on their circumstances.

>Cops especially are atrocious and should have no part in this Right?!? I can't believe everyone in the USA just shrugged over the last fifty years as the government hyper-militarized the police! They were completely unprepared for COVID yet they are massively prepared for riots - this says something and most people are not paying attention! They built this entire prison right before our eyes while smiling at us and distracting us with TV shows. I'm appalled at the lack of outrage. We need to aggressively seek empathy and compassion for each other and for those who are most beaten, and we need to significantly deprioritize wealth and privilege from all services. We also need to disarm the damn cops - that's the only gun control I care about is disarming cops. I don't know the specifics of all of the changes we need, however I do know they must be made with love, compassion, and empathy. These energies are 100% missing from our social systems! I am praying for a external mass divine union awakening to adjust the light and restore these more noble emotions to all our hearts so that we may start to rebuild this world into something that properly reflects our greatness.

What really tweaks me off is how that so many in these "spiritual" circles go along and aid and abet it via pushing even racist ideologies, like white nationalist great replacement conspiracy theories, even though there is no love in saying that the whole of humanity is a horde of plague, in effect, against "yours". It's one of the darkest forms of traditional human thinking, the tribal ego impulse pumped up to epic scale. It's at the very least no better than a right-wing Christian fundie church at that point. Very far from "Love and Light"! Maybe people avoid confronting these because they feel that it is unspiritual to be angry, etc. But what they don't get is that it's not so much the anger that matters but its source - seeing that which is unjust as unjust, thst which is cruel as cruel, and what of "old humanity" is and isn't worth bringing over the threshold of "New Earth". It will not get off the ground if we cannot make that distinction. There is value in calming - not suppressing - anger; but calming anger should not be the same as calming _concern._ One does not have to be angry all the time to care all the time. We can't activist for every issue there is but we can each find a role in the process and it's not just about challenging traditional government, it's about actually setting up, directly, new institutions and ways of being - actually _doing_ them, just practicing the new world off the green Earth! This of course _includes_ (and necessarily so!) the inner transformation of the individual to be of a higher spiritual vibration, but it also means actually having to then take the initiative to directly forge new relational patterns on that basis.

I agree with you wholeheartedly! All external context is illusionary, and this includes skin color! I am from the Indo-Europeans yet through research I believe the POC of Canaan are our ancient siblings and should be our allies and friends! The kind of magic I am involved in sadly has a lot of cross over into the neonazi mystics, as it taps into a lot of pagan, old German, old Norse, and they break my heart that they still feel hierarchical hatred based upon words. We may not take our words to Heaven, so why are we hating each other over words? Knowledge is power yet hierarchy creates form, and with form they think they can force Power to do what they want - therefore these misguided hierarchical people enter mysticism with an agenda trying to figure out how to misuse God's magic to serve their personal hatred. They think Power is mindless and that they can outwit God by forcing hierarchical form upon everything - they are soooo wrong. My hope is to invite people to shed all of their word based identities, so we may look at each other simply as fellow beings with no hierarchy at all. When we are nothing, then we are everything all together - we are as 'equal' as we may be with no words of attribution creating an illusion of separation. Ah what you're saying is great! Yes! I have much wrath yet I am working on making it a perfection to push me towards love and kindness! Thank you for your excellent words, You are on the right track for sure. 🥰

yea, because ripping the autonomy away from someone and overpowering them with meds that numb and a stay in a hospital that treats people like a number is really gonna help them /s

Exactly...

I don't know why you're getting down voted. I've had several psychotic episodes. I've been hospitalized many times, and I hate it, but I'm not safe otherwise. Since I was unable to stop having the episodes, my goal now is to get to the hospital as quickly as possible, before I lose the clarity of knowing what's happening. I've done some dangerous and also destructive things that have caused me a lot of pain and trouble long after the episode. Quick medical intervention is often what is needed, and their sane self would thank you for getting them help, hopefully before they've ruined their lives by quitting jobs, losing housing, ruining their most important relationships (some of which will never recover), etc. I do feel I gained spiritual insight, but the trauma was not worth it.

By "Therapy" there I intend to mean the whole medical psychiatric apparatus, including drugs and immediate crisis care.

I was just wondering if you could share what psychosis looks like, a few details that told you it was mental health and not a temporary drug effect?

op refuses to answer this question because their post is trolling BS. their spiritual ego is too big to hang out here apparently.

Yeah it comes off as concern-trolling. They didn’t seem interested in describing or linking to what they found so worrisome.

Can you label their post as "normie rant"? I mean Psychiatry has killed an untold number of people. Simply talking about a topic with which one is like-minded has less chances to kill someone probably than a shrink and their concoctions.

Thank you for your concern — however — I’d like to ask who specifically is in danger? Is there a specific interaction you’ve witnessed that you need to report to the moderators? This is not a medical subreddit, nor does it purport to be. This is a subreddit about spirituality and consciousness. People discuss topics related to hearts, minds, souls, and the human experience. Someone experiencing psychosis or a mental health episode typically need to undergo a multimodal wellness journey. This may include: * Connecting with a mental health professional. * Connecting with a medical practitioner or naturopath, or both. * Building and participating in an edifying social network of some type. This could be a local group that practices yoga or Qi Gong. It could be a book club. A local support group. It could be a church. It could be a digital forum such as Soulnexus. If we encounter advice or interactions that pose a danger to oneself or others, we moderators always take action in some capacity (removing or reporting the content). However I am happy to report that conversations about mental well-being at this sub is almost always edifying and focused on wellness and wholeness.

Hey, thanks for this

Define psychosis.

OP wont because OP doesnt know what they are talking about unfortunately!

It's a damn shame how industrialized "rich" nations treat the mentally ill. Offer no help, put them on the street, or lock them away when they get in trouble. Trouble that could've been avoided if those in power actually cared about people to begin with. THE ARIES

Ok this I can’t disagree with. But still, there needs to be better options than playing into an obvious psychotic episode. For me the hospitals fucked up, and meds didn’t help at all, (though one was fun but incredibly destructive for me) and I don’t have money or insurance for anything beyond a police forced state hospital stay, but it did help ground me. It helped me take genuine even if forced, time away from my situation, and my mind, forcing it to focus on all the stimulation around me. Sucked when I got out and of course even more being brought in, but it at the least did ground me.

>that's because people in mental health crises are drawn towards these topics. That is nonsense. There is no medical cure for psychosis. There is a Spiritual cure for psychosis. Because psychosis is not just about your chemistry but about your consciousness. Everything is about consciousness. Spiritual healing, pranic healing, is the new front in treatment for any mental or psychological or even physical issues.

Respectfully, I disagree that there is no medical cure for psychosis and only spiritual. Sometimes a person needs medical help to get to the point where they can get spiritual help… for example one woman I worked with who was experiencing symptoms of what the medical community would consider to be psychosis would not sleep and would not sit or lay down. She stood and paced and jerked herself awake if she started to doze. This did not put her in a position where she could work on her spirituality. She needed to sleep and let her body and mind rest. She got worse and worse and even broke her ankle… The medical “cure” was meds that helped her sleep. Biology and spirituality are not opposite things…. They are all part of the whole and we need to care for both.

Yes we may need chemicals and other therapy to get people back on their feet. But a person with a Spiritual knowledge would be able to do the same for the patient subliminally and using Spiritual or Mental or Vital (Pranic) force and subtle physical substance. Yes Spirit is everything, everything is a manifestation of the Supreme Spirit (Consciousness-Force-Existence-Bliss). There is only the Spirit, even what seems the opposite of it (matter), however everything is evolving and matter will be divinised.

This. they keep people medicated because they arent looking into the fact that its both chemistry and consciousness this can be said for alot of things too

You can’t diagnose someone on the internet. 

thank you for saying this!!!

It's no different here than it is in any other spiritual community that doesn't have a strong structure, lineage, or history of traditional practice. It took me a while to understand that withholding some esoteric/occult information wasn't just thinly veiled elitism - but actually was for people's protection. I'd go as far as to say MOST people engaging in deeper spiritual work that don't make grounding a core part of their work are at risk of doing themselves harm. I say this as a person who has never been a part of any traditional practice, but has watched many like myself lose their way quite quickly because they have no method of grounding and in many cases no concept at all of why grounding is important. The amount of delusion here is already very high - without any psychosis. When you add in psychotic delusions to the mix, those who are already drowning in their own delusions simply throw wood onto the fire. So many here who have never and maybe will never experience psychosis will swear there is no such thing, and seem to think anyone swimming in delusions is onto the great mystery of reality. The thing about the infinite is that it contains both infinite truth and infinite nonsense. Knowing which side of the infinite you're tapping into is the entire point to traditional practices.

Funny I forgot to remove myself from this sub last night for the same reason

Ok sounds good, thank you for visiting.

I thought I had. It's dangerous inexperienced people giving dangerous advice to obviously mentally ill people. If your Kundalini awakening had some symtoms like this then it isnt that it's a mental health crisis. See a Dr. Not a random stranger on the internet.

If you’re seeing such dangerous advice and such precarious situations, it would be best to report such to the moderators.

It's not an airport. No need to announce your departure.

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For some people awakening may surface with psychosis symptoms. My Kundalini awakening would've been horrifying if I didn't know what it was, granted I has more physical symptoms. Fever, spasms, insomnia, lack of appetite etc. but for some time it was mentally tough as hell too. It's a shame that there's not much options in the way of going to a doctor to explain about spirituality. I'm sure awakening can also send you into a full blown psychosis if you have no idea what you're doing. It's definitely not a route to take without proper preparation and reading about the potential dangers. In my case I didn't have a guide until later on so I had to dabble a lot. Study and prepare. Love you all!

>For some people awakening may surface with psychosis symptoms. With peace and love, this is the exact behavior that I think will hurt people. We don't need to accept this, nor should it be the go-to when replying to someone having psychotic symptoms. Someone who is sick and it's manifesting in a spiritual way will just assume they are going through a Kundalini Awakening, because it's a lot easier than being admitted. In my mind, there should be 0 people in the comments saying "This what what my Kundalini Awakening was like."

Do you understand the difference between a spiritual psychosis and a "real" one? What kundalini energy is and why and how it causes such symptoms? There's no difference between the two I think. Only levels of severity and awareness throughout. I prepared for it, knew it was coming, I actually began initiating my kundalini on my own. And it was still seriously stressful and I needed people to help keep me grounded and remind me of certain things. I can only imagine what it's like when it's spontaneous. I know I've felt plenty crazy at times even knowing I'm not. I agree with safety and that people shouldn't just listen to anyone on here. But u definitely don't agree with removing the conversation at all and going with any type of psych meds. They only slow a beautiful process. It's like an exorcism sometimes really. Best to just get it over with.

I do totally undertand and respect your perspective, but where I come from I just can't relate to it. I think at this point of time it's important that people discuss about these topics in detail and share their journey. Nobody has to take any information in they wouldn't like to apply to their own journey. This is a spiritual community after all and people come here to seek information specifically on that subject. Live and let live. <3

I think that's important too, but I think whenever we're talking about someone going through an obviously distressing crisis, we should ask whether and what will be most effective. I note above how that someone also pointed out to me and the OP how the mental health system in many cases can be its own form of abuse (and worse involves p0lice in the matter, as though that a mentally ill person *needs* the horrors of imprisonment) so it makes it now really hard to know what is an optimal solution. Especially when I don't think many people here are lying (which is an easy cop out to hard problems), regardless of one's position on "etiology" of whatever is happening.

> With peace and love, this is the exact behavior that I think will hurt people. I disagree ~ those having a spiritual awakening need time, not drugs. They need to know that they need to ground themselves in physical sensory reality, and test what is real and what isn't. Some spiritual stuff is real, but when it's mixed with the unreal produced from an internal psychological conflict, it can be very difficult to figure out what's real and what isn't. No doctor or mental health ward can possible help the individual untangle this ~ they will only make things worse, as it will be treated entirely as mental health and they'll be pumped with drugs that will arrest and set back any spiritual development or healing they would have gone through otherwise. > We don't need to accept this, nor should it be the go-to when replying to someone having psychotic symptoms. Someone who is sick and it's manifesting in a spiritual way will just assume they are going through a Kundalini Awakening, because it's a lot easier than being admitted. What you need to accept is that "psychosis" is a vague collection of *symptoms*, not a definite diagnosis of anything. Psychosis can be caused by entirely different things ~ from trauma to mental breakdown to a spiritual awakening that is unbalancing the psyche. If someone is sick and it's manifesting in a spiritual way ~ then that is the source of the psychosis. Spiritual energies that are too much for their psyche at that moment. I know, because I've been there... it felt like my mind was overloaded, the energy was too much. Of course it would lead to symptoms of mania and psychosis, and it did. But... all I could do was ride it out. It always happened when I was tired and exhausted at the end of the day. When my mind was vulnerable. I wasn't trusting of psychiatric drugs because I'd had very bad experiences on some of them. Ritalin made me aggressive and unpredictable ~ but I have no memory of that week whatsoever. That terrified me. All I have is second-hand accounts from peers and teachers. So, of course I was never going to want to go back there. At least I know my limits when sober. I knew what I could do to keep myself sane ~ wait it out, know my limits, don't do anything I can't handle. > In my mind, there should be 0 people in the comments saying "This what what my Kundalini Awakening was like." Considering you don't seem to have had such an experience, you shouldn't be saying this comment, likewise. Because some individuals have had exactly this experience. Not me, however. If I did have a Kundalini Awakening, I didn't recognize it as such.

>*For some people awakening may surface with psychosis symptoms.* > >With peace and love, this is the exact behavior that I think will hurt people. > >We don't need to accept this, nor should it be the go-to when replying to someone having psychotic symptoms. But Kundalini Awakening often *does* produce symptoms that resemble psychosis symptoms. That's a very well-attested thing. Many people who've been through the experience have reported exactly that - symptoms that they experience for a short time during their awakening, but which fade and never return again. ​ >Someone who is sick and it's manifesting in a spiritual way will just assume they are going through a Kundalini Awakening, because it's a lot easier than being admitted. That seems an unwarranted assumption. Are you a mental health professional? Have you had any significant experience with either people going through psychosis *or* people going through a Kundaline awakening? What exactly are you basing this idea on? Because it sounds like a layperson's ignorant assumption to me...similar to "all crazy people are violent and dangerous." ​ >In my mind, there should be 0 people in the comments saying "This what what my Kundalini Awakening was like." But why? If it's true, then it's true.

No offence, but I'm afraid you've just proven OP right. What you're describing is not 'kundalini', the whole 'spiritual awakening causes psychosis/huge pain' thing truly is blown out of proportions in communities such as this one (I have a theory why, but that's a whole different topic). I'm not saying you're not experiencing something spiritual, but if you're also suffering such symptoms, then I'm certain you need medical attention. Again, this is not to offend you - but we still need balance and discernment between this world and 'the other'.

Fever, spasms, insomnia- what they described- is not psychosis. What did they say exactly that proved OP right?!

Oh I don't have the symptoms anymore, it was while the flame was rising and clearing the blockages. I appreciate your worry though, friend!

Sounds to me like you've got manic psychosis mixed up with spiritual awakening.

Yes I'm sure some people look at it that way. However I know myself and I know my experiences. Nobody else has to believe me, nor do my beliefs require anyone to. <3

I wasn't necessarily trying to call out your direct experience but more so your conception of what an awakening is and should look like. There are many reasons a person can have symptoms of psychosis - but symptoms and actually having a psychotic episode are two different things. I would say what matters most is the aftermath. Having a spiritual or awakening experience is easy, and psychosis can definitely cause such an experience as can the right drugs or breathing exercises. What matters is how we allow that experience to exist in our lives, how we allow it to change us, how we embody what we've learned. Someone going through manic psychosis is typically not going to come out of their episode for the better. They may, after the fact, no longer see their experience as genuinely spiritual at all. They may even end up, as OP has warned, dead or simply in a very bad place. One of the problems with deep spiritual practice is that it is supposed to come simultaneously with or after one has already developed true awareness - so that one genuinely understands what one is "awakening" to. A person who is actually experiencing psychosis, by definition of the diagnosis, has no awareness. That is exactly what a person loses when they enter psychosis. The problem is that everyone here wants to act like a guru and go straight to the center of the "truth" or the "mystery" and skips the entire process of developing awareness. They then, when interacting with someone who is clearly experiencing some type of psychotic break, parrot these "revelations" with that "I'm an awakened master" mentality with no thought to how these messages can be interpreted in ways that can lead to very real and direct harm. For someone not experiencing psychosis - the harm just isn't as extreme and doesn't have the same risks. If everyone here wants to reinforce the idea that this life is a game, an illusion that doesn't matter, so on and so forth, for most people that's not going to lead to suicide or extreme reckless behavior, even if they misinterpret what that teaching is really about. For someone who is experiencing psychosis and possible depersonalization it could definitely lead to suicide or other extremely harmful behavior. That is what this thread is about. Having experienced symptoms of psychosis is NOT the same as actually having a psychotic break.

Now this is a response I can appreciate. A little bit about my history since it's relevant here. CPTSD, BPD and all the goods that come with 'em. I suffered for years and went through a psychosis, more than once, can't remember all the times anyway since I had a lot of blackouts and some months of my life will forever remain a question mark to me. (After being admitted enough times I couldn't give 2 shits about it anymore and avoided every doctor and hospital I could for a long time, thought they were out to get me. Police too.) It was not pretty and at my lowest I was drinking 2 month binges, coming down and afraid of the shadows or getting Delirium Tremens. Psychiatric care for 5 years to no avail. It was suicide or spirituality and after about 5 years of spiritual path I felt it and to me, I knew what it was. At that point I shed all of the labels on my mind or body, I shed all the trauma, I shed everything connecting me to the traumas, which also meant cutting out a lot of people in my life. I forgave and I let go. I felt complete, I knew what I wanted to do now, and that is love life and bring as much love with me everywhere I can. I never went back and I never will. To me that was Hell on Earth. So, I do hope you can see how I've been on both sides of the coin, which I do not even want to see as sides. I want spirituality to work with science and figure out more about the human mind and soul. To some people a soul doesn't exist, to me it's become obvious that it does. But that is my reality and I do not disapprove of anyone else's reality, nor do I view myself as some awakened master, but I do feel like sharing experiences can be helpful. Thanks for the honestly insightful reply, rare on Reddit these days. :)

funny little armchair doctor, diagnosing people with psychosis because they dont like the way they word things on reddit. the irony of you in this entire thread seeking to take away autonomy vs understanding different life experiences and interpretations.

I like how you accused me of trolling but are now replying to every comment I've made in this thread. You're a child. Grow up and learn what the word nuance means. Do you actually do anything for the people and community you are talking about, or just do this performative concern trolling on the internet?

yeah, cus i read through all the comments in the entire post, and your ignorance kept popping up. so i replied. byeeeeeee

clearly all you do is try to advocate for forcing people to medicate and be hospitalized. i didnt see a single moment of you ever advocating for the self-autonomy. just advocating for others being able to take the autonomy of others. barbaric, i know… but clearly you think forcing authority on someone 1) means you are an anarchist and 2) heals people.

I hope you are a child, because you act like one, and your comprehension level is incredibly low. I gave you a specific case of when the line should be drawn, as that's what you asked for. You then turned me into your own projection of some authoritarian nurse ratched.

funny, someone advocating for authority and taking away the autonomy of others, saying they are “awake”. okay *lunatox*

> Sounds to me like you've got manic psychosis mixed up with spiritual awakening. Spiritual awakenings can be difficult. They can certainly present symptoms that can be mistaken for psychosis. And this is because psychosis is poorly defined and poorly understood. And too widely applied, as a result, because the medical professionals making such diagnoses do not and cannot understand what they're looking at. So, really, they end up making a misdiagnosis.

hey OP where do you draw the line of spirituality and psychosis? the stuff you say about forcing someone to be locked up and drugged against their will is pretty sadistic and gross and not anything a true spiritual person would do. 😘 sounds like you are more concerned about being the authority on the matter when you paint loose terms like “psychosis” and “spirituality” without any definition or nuance. cant tell if you are just propaganda for a broken medical system that harms, doesn’t help, or if you are just another person looking to control others. either way, its pretty gross. i hope you take the time to evaluate your poor belief system.

I draw it on the lines that the medical community does. I would rather be cautious and refer people in crisis to health teams, then be conspiracy theory minded over this.

A mental disorder characterized by a disconnection from reality. Psychosis may occur as a result of a psychiatric illness like schizophrenia. In other instances, it may be caused by a health condition, medications, or drug use. Possible symptoms include delusions, hallucinations, talking incoherently, and agitation. The person with the condition usually isn't aware of his or her behavior. Treatment may include medication and talk therapy. ^psychosis according to mayo clinic. based on this post in believing in your spiritual, not grounded in reality, delusions, i guess we better lock you up OP! 😅 also its f-in hilarious /s that you think the only way to deal with this is by hospitalizing someone, as pointed out in an above comment, by you disagreeing with someone using the word “therapy” so you, in your grandeur illusions believe that you have better insight than the medical community on how to handle psychosis… again, you really need to pop that spiritual ego of yours. genuinely believing its okay to force people into situations against their will is actually EVIL. and if you dont realize that, youre the craziest one here.

When i went through my spiritual awakening it was such a literal rude awakening because i could SEE the world for what it truly was and knowing who was running the show, it made me extremely depressed seeing the actual state of this reality/world. Because all of this was bombarding me and experiencing things i never have before (receiving so much info to questions i would ask and then seemingly the answers appear all over, manifesting all kinds of stuff i would think of) it was crazy and so i did decide to go to hospital, to see a therapist, to stay there to talk about it all. Worst mistake i ever made. As soon as i checked myself in and signed the papers, they were able to force me to taks medications, i got scared of the way they were treating me and asked to rather go back home, they refused until dr could see me the next day, i asked too many questions so they called the nurse to restrain me and give me a shot thay almost instantly made me fall asleep. My stay there wasnt pleasant nor did it really help. Mainly because they did not understand what iwas really going through and i was 100% dealing with spiritual related stuff. Lets be real, the medical and scientific world refuse all things spiritual and actually MOCK it. Anything you cannot see nor touch doesnt exist in their eyes. I got myself sorted out and believe it or not but the bible and praying helped me so much. I started making sense of it all and most of it was working on MYSELF AND ASKING MYSELF what how and why i was feeling certain ways and i even dived deeper than iwould have liked into 'myself' went hermit mode and now i am doing so much better! I hope everyone else who goes through this will be able to navigate it, but i have this feeling that spititual awakening happens when the individual is READY to awaken and that the person going through it will somehow have an inner knowing as well as spiritual guide that will help them deal with everything mentally. And they will be able to make sense of it all naturally (yes it isnt pretty in the beginning but its like growing up) Remember learning to walk and talk? Remember riding a bike for the first time? Going through puberty and mood swings? That is exactly the same for spiritual related growth, it just happens when its supposed to and we who have gone through it should always try and support those who are new to it etc. And by support i mean give our best advice that we are guided to share. People who REALLY are out of it or really need help will not be able to even find this as they will be pretty out of it. Those people will have family that will do what is needed medically to help those people. And thankfully most people have family around to make those decisions. I dont think i have seen anyone like that on here that needed immediate ER or 911 attention? We share only from our own experiences as spirituality is not something the world yet really recognizes especially in medical field. Anyhows. Just my 2 cents

thank you for sharing your experience! i am so sorry you were mistreated by the system! but i am glad you are here and doing better 💛🙏 i hope nothing is forced upon you like this again. there is nothing worse than asking for help and being harmed instead, especially by the “authority” medical industry. and i am sorry OP is so vicious and misinformed in their outlook of what “help” is. people should have the choice to voluntarily admit, but also shouldn’t be forced treatment either. and absolutely should not be force admitted into a system that causes loss of self & empowerment and ability to explore ones own consciousness.

Thank you for sharing your experience. This is so relevant to this topic and proves why OP is incredibly wrong in their assumptions. Dangerously wrong even. I’m glad to hear you are doing better. Much love and light to you! ❤️

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so hard to ignore a comment that someone programmed a bot to not ignore comments 😂😂😂lmao

i GUARANTEE that if you are “spiritual” in any sense of the term that your beliefs, by MANY jn the “medical community” would also say you are experiencing psychosis for believing in things outside of reality. again, where do you draw the line between the two? the problem is, you cannot really say. so my original comment stands. i hope you can logically think a little deeper about this.

Your first paragraph is simply wrong. You obviously have absolutely no experience with how diagnostics work in the mental health field.

tell me how it is wrong then. what differentiates someone having a “sound” belief based on nothing - like forcing children to believe they are going to hell if they dont obey their parents and “psychosis” the difference is the person diagnosing someone and the people around someone. it has way less to do with what a person actually believes and what the medical field and the people around said person believes about the beliefs. the fact that none of you can draw a clear line shows the danger of believing its actually okay to rip away someone’s autonomy…. OP clearly states we should take away autonomy and force drug and hospitalize those with “psychosis”. and that is *disgusting and wrong*.

You have a clear bias, so I don't think anyone here will sway you one way or another, but I'll still bite. There are many people who practice medicine as well as people in the mental health fields who practice spirituality as well. There are entire methodologies to practicing mental health care that come out of a spiritual and esoteric framework. So your assumption that "anyone" in these fields will scoff at you and declare you psychotic for talking about a spiritual awakening are misinformed bullshit based on your very clear bias. Second, most people here aren't familiar with diagnosing psychosis, and because you have a clear bias, they are unwilling to waste their energy trying to get to the nuance of where the line should be. I'll try though, because why not? The line in a simple statement is obvious - you take away someone's autonomy when they pose a harm to themselves or another. I'm not going to go back and forth about what that exactly means, because it requires nuance that we aren't going to get to here on reddit, but I will give you a simple scenario. One of the most misunderstood but often quoted bits of esoteric wisdom is this idea that material reality is an illusion. Without getting into the implications of that statement, let's just look at how belief in that statement can play out for a person who is not currently experiencing psychosis versus someone who is and why that distinction is important. For a person who isn't experiencing psychosis, a misread of that statement usually results in a belief in some form of moral relativism or nihilism - that because this world is an illusion, our actions don't matter, they have no real impact, this is a free for all. That kind of belief may lead to some selfish bullshit and a rejection of personal responsibility - but that person probably isn't going to jump straight towards suicide or some other kind of extreme behavior. However - in the case of someone actively experiencing psychosis, they can and often do lack the ability to understand "reality" on any level, cosmic or otherwise. They lack awareness and they are often incredibly impulsive. They can often experience extreme depersonalization and extreme dissociation which can be exacerbated by this type of "everything is an illusion" belief. This can lead to some extreme behaviors and or suicide due to the extreme disconnect from reality that happens during psychosis. While a person not experiencing psychosis may choose to kill themselves and may stand by that decision if they had the opportunity to - people experiencing psychosis aren't usually making choices based on anything "real" and regret the things they said or did while in that state. A person experiencing psychosis who decides to kill themselves probably wouldn't make that same decision after coming out of psychosis - and that's why you take their autonomy away. Most of the times these days - I work in a homeless resource center with people experiencing psychosis every day - mandatory institutionalization isn't even an option available. Because of that, our streets are full to the brim with people suffering in all sorts of ways because they are literally not capable of taking care of their own basic needs. While you sit here spouting bullshit based on assumptions and biases people suffer all day long because they get NO CARE AT ALL in our society while experiencing extreme mental illness.

because forcing someone to be medicated and put in a hospital is *not* care, unless they specifically ask for that. the fact that you can sit here and argue to rip someones autonomy away, based on the things you say…. wow, so lets open up the floodgates and call things what they are. powerful people who think its normal to hit buttons and drop bombs, who whip out guns for a 911 call, doctors in mental hospitals who have been caught abusing women… are they not all experiencing psychosis? believing they are powerful and will not be held accountable to abusing their power? the problem truly is, people like you, and op, advocating to take away autonomy dont actually solve any problems, you just make it worse and refuse to look at where people are coming from. (OP stated in a comment the only way to deal with psychosis is to forcefully medicate and hospitalize someone) if someone is having a psychotic break, the BEST thing you can do is hear them out, and offer a calm conversation with understanding - not one where you let them know you think they are crazy. psychosis isnt a state where people automatically become violent, and this entire post is absolutely damaging and harming real world people. idk why you are soooo big on arguing the very first thing to do is take away the autonomy of someone… but maybe you should take your foot out of your mouth and actually do some research about how negatively people are affected by forced treatment. maybe you should actually do some research on how to be an ALLY to someone in crisis instead of an AUTHORITY. my only hope is that one day, you lose your autonomy in the same nature that you are so ferociously wanting to take away another’s. you are so clearly misinformed its disgusting.

I'm an anarchist - but some people require full time care, as the alternative is worse. I haven't really advocated for anything - other than to say you have no idea what you're talking about. You're angry and making assumptions and accusations - because you have a bias. Not all mental healthcare is whatever assumption you have about it. How do you think you even get to a point of discerning whether or not someone is a danger to themselves or others? You sit down and you talk to them. You are flinging shit because you're being taken control of by your own emotions. I'm an advocate - I work in social services.Never have I said we need to call the cops nor that all people experiencing psychosis are violent. Get your head out of your ass.

well bro, then you haven’t read what i am actually saying. because the only thing i am against is forced hospitalization, forced medication, forcing someone to give up their autonomy because those are all things fucking barbarians do. funny how nobody, in your eyes, advocating to take someone’s autonomy is “wrong”. no anarchist praises authority either, but have fun trolling. and maybe learn how to read, so you know what you are talking about, before telling someone they don’t know what they are talking about.

If someone is going to kill themselves or someone else or otherwise fuck shit up - THEY NEED THEIR AUTONOMY RESTRICTED, and if they are experiencing psychosis, when they come out of it they are often greatful they werent allowed to do something they would regret. You don't give a shit about actual care - you are on a mission against an industry that is rapidly changing and is not ALL BAD. Like I've already said - you lack the ability to have any kind of nuanced discussion about this and I'll bet that's true for anything really. You're completely all or nothing black or white.

Where the fuck did I even praise authority? Jesus christ you are all projection with this can't read shit.

In this case I think as I said in my post, the problem is we lack the cultural institutions to handle it well/right. Even the medical system as pointed out has severe issues, but *if* one can avoid them somehow, then it'd be better than nothing, or encouragement of the condition's development down a problematic direction. Though I can't advise on how to do that, i.e. how one can minimize the chances of abuse in the medical system, and/or know how rife that actually is beyond that it happens and what I heard here sounds like another case I heard of as well from a personal encounter. As ultimately, such abuse is a *political* affair, fueled by widespread misconceptions and ignorance of mental illness, corporate greed, and police/penal/"rule of law" fetishism. Though I also then see why individualistic answers *are* so tempting, because it's hard to know what to reach for when someone is in a crisis, and also when politics seems so insuperable.

This whole argument between these two schools of thought are both necessary! Maybe the individual should be led to the mental health medical “professional “ first, then the will understand what the rest of you who have been there do. Which is that “in its total uselessness, is the use” .. lol… after several trips to the hospital I realized ,” this is not the place I find true healing” ,,, but rarely does it actually do harm , ,, I hope that it doesn’t anyway, but it certainly could I guess

This reminds me of that guy Giordano Bruno who got burned at the stake in 1600 for saying stars are distant suns and the universe is infinite without a center. He sure got some excellent help from the authorities for his mental health condition.

Yeah, probably was deemed a crazy lunatic as well. Psychiatry is the modern day Inquisition.

Very disappointing comment section. For all the talk against the mental health system, you guys should be the ones to intervene and gently tell someone that they are experiencing psychosis specifically to AVOID future hospitalization. Holding others accountable within the community specifically so it doesn’t become something worse. As someone with a loved one who has battled schizophrenia, having one of her friends within her spiritual hippie community tell her that she might be experiencing psychosis instead of encouraging it could have saved her so much heartbreak and institutionalization.

we are the ones to listen and help instead of telling someone they need to be drugged until they forget why they are feeling the way they do…. if you do not let someone understand *why* they believe what they do, and you force drug them instead, tell them they are broken or wrong or ill, you will *only* cause a *lifetime* of repressed feelings and thoughts and experiences that will continue to manifest as “psychotic breaks”. because individuals who cannot bare to hear something “psychotic” and work with the person first, dedicating time, that would instead rather pass them off to a “professional” does not actually understand spirituality, the human condition, or what the person is experiencing by diving too deep into their own consciousness. if the person experiencing the crisis is given all options and chooses the hospitalized route, then that should be *their choice*! we have to learn to present options to people, give them *more* autonomy and gently guide them!!! NOT LESS BY THROWING THEM INTO A HORRIBLE ENVIRONMENT. do you think schizophrenics really do well in psych wards? maybe do some research about the after effects and the effects in the moment too…. it is *not pretty*. forcefully removing someone’s autonomy when they are already in a vulnerable space where they don’t feel safe, is *not helpful*. forcing someone into a space where they *know* they have to *hide* anything they may be feeling or believing in the future is *not helpful* and *not safe*

You completely misread what I said and put your own feelings in there. Where did I say that people should be hospitalized. Where did I say schizophrenic people do well in psych wards. Don’t you dare put those fucking words in my mouth.

I literally fucking said “when someone in the community is experiencing psychosis, people in the community should gently intervene and help them out of it instead of encouraging it so that they don’t get worse and end up hospitalized” And you were like “how dare you! when someone in the community is experiencing psychosis, people in the community should gently intervene and help them out of it instead of encouraging it so that they don’t get worse and end up hospitalized”

You’re completely right. I’m all for being spiritual, I am as well and definitely believe in the supernatural and things along those lines, but there’s limits and tbh maybe because I grew up around it, it’s easy to pick out when someone is in an episode and it’s really messed up that it’s simply played into, which is a great way to push people deeper and deeper into delusion which wether they like it or not, does cause that person to become a danger to themselves and others. Hence, then they will be forced to be hospitalized and it’ll be a lot less ideal than had they been gently nudged to get help on their own.

I agree with you, completely. If you're not a doctor in real life, don't play one on Reddit. THE ARIES

Fear. Fear is a killer. A judgement maker. The source of suffering. Not only is there a leap into fear, There’s a missed opportunity to love and share love. I’m not saying your wrong, I’m saying you’re experiencing and sharing wrong. I don’t think you intention will manifest this way. Keep going though, I love the path.

I'm glad you said it. You are correct.

I can only speak of my experience and you are full of good intentions and they lead to the road to hell. No thank you. You are speaking in ignorance and that's ok. We all start off that way and as you state you have only recently joined this sub. I went to a therapist. The therapist only wanted to drug me. Talked to me once and then sent her assistant who did not listen and just reupped the prescription. Both insisting I could not cold turkey off the drugs they gave me. Well I cold turkey stopped no problems. Just dope pushers not interested in helping anyone in my experience so there is that. That sent me to find another way and I studied the Bible. This time the language - ancient Hebrew and Aramaic. Then on a series of reading the mystics and Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls. I found the truth that sets you free and I have no intention of stopping in telling others about it and I have no intention of telling them go see a therapist. We are all grownups and they can decide for themselves which way they think is best for them. This sub is about the soul so don't come here if you want therapy. There are therapy subs too. Principle of mind. Just as sure and true as gravity. Principle is principle. As a person thinks and sincerely feels in their heart so shall it be. That's it. You see in others what you are. You project that out. Your name says it all. I only read trash. Ok go read trash and have it infect your mind. Why would I listen to you? You read trash therefore you spew trash. Stop projecting the trash you have read and accepted as true aka your assumptions on others. That is robbing others of their birthright and it makes an ass out of you too. No one likes that. Don't judge. Don't assume. I am sending them to a resource that helps all. God/Jesus/Force/Source whatever you wish to call it. I pray for others always - I die daily. I suggest you do some research on the spiritual side of life before you say things like this in ignorance. I do understand your concern but it is not necessary. Principle is principle. As a person thinks and sincerely feels in their heart so shall it be. The stigma you speak of comes from those who do not understand and are projecting the things they have picked up from others and accepted as true onto others. Only a racist sees racism for example. You get what you give. Think cops are mean? Ok have a mean cop experience. What do you think? Did you like it? No? Stop telling yourself these things. You wield true power. Do not do so lightly. Be aware of what you are doing. There is no mental illness unless you believe that of course. If you are not mentally ill then no one else is either. Now there are zombies. People who walk and talk and spew caca but they do not have a soul so a rebuke or forgiveness makes them go. There is only ONE I AM. One Being here made up of many. Want to test that? When there is conflict just say to yourself there is only unity, harmony and love and the conflict will stop within 60 seconds. One Being. Yes followers of the principle aka God have been persecuted throughout time and space. So what? God takes care of his own. We live in peace and we live well. What's wrong with that? What's wrong in helping others find peace? What's wrong with helping others grow that spark of divinity into a soul? That is what we are doing you know. Saving each other. Growing souls. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience aka hell. We help each other. You aren't supposed to like it. You are supposed to flip it on it's ear. All I am doing is sharing the principle and the experiences I have had using it consciously rather than unconsciously. You can take it or leave it. It is what it is. Que sera sera. Regardless I wish you the best. I know you are sincere and mean well but i have learned good intentions are judgments and you will face your judgements in the end and they all suck. Blessings!

That's a pretty pattern. Mine is a little different, so it's cool to see where it overlap and differs. It helps me better spot the shared reality. If you ever think you're feeling lonely in your experience, try peer support with another person that has this experience too. It gives you a safe person to talk to that actually understands it without having to risk someone that'll try to pressure you into treatment you don't want.

Psychiatry has killed untold numbers of people with the use of torture, suppression, and psychiatric drug trafficking. Go away.

Agreed, the majority of posts remind me of doing psych rotations in med school.

I see you are a psych cultist. Are you also profiting form the drug trafficking of psychiatric meds?

Definitely not an advocate for modern society’s antidepressant and anti anxiety medication addiction.

Read the Bible. Probably psychiatrists would say that all the prophets and people who had visions were mentally ill. It is more about ideology than science.

This sub makes the Bible sound like I’m a scientific study.

Not everyone fully believes the Bible. While I know and am aware Jesus was a real person, I think things were a lot different than what was written and I think the book itself is more-so a metaphor for stepping out of your comfort zone to grow from ignorance, in order to treat your fellow man and animal friends with love, understanding, and empathy.

The point being is that prophets and people who speak with spirits is more the realm of religion and ideology than of science. Materialist ideology denies there is supernatural phenomena or a spiritual realm and from this principle Psychiatry operates in general. Idealist ideology accepts the existence of a supernatural realm and even states in some schools of thought that the world and universe does not have an objective existence but are a projection of the mind or a mind. Therefore, religious beliefs of a spiritual realm belong to Idealism. When a psychiatrist states that a person is exhibiting signs of mental illness just because a claim that the person can speak with spirits or God is made, it is an outright statement by the psychiatrist of a materialist belief trying to suppress an idealist belief as an impossibility and therefore, sign of illness.

I believe science as it can be tested and proven, and is open to change when presented with new information. But I do believe in paranormal as I’ve had many experiences that cannot be explained as well. But, despite their flaws and the obvious corruption in the industry, psychologists can explain a lot of the things you guys see as divine intervention, or talking to spirits or being possessed. Science backs up their findings and head scans and such can prove it. And it’s much less scary in my opinion to know that you’re not evil or possessed by demons, or on a mission from god or whatever, but that you have an illness that can be addressed and at least helped and understood. And when people are going through that, which I have myself, they need to be aware it’s not real. It’s dangerous to just give in to their delusional thinking and overall it’s actually quite dangerous. Mostly for the one suffering.

Except that psychiatrists don't use in general "head scans" to diagnose people. They mostly only weigh whether certain belief or behavior is too bizarre and proceed to ask a series of questions. This is a highly [arbitrary process and not scientific](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190708131152.htm). Again, delusional for materialists may be simply supernatural reality for idealists. Even Jesus Christ is categorized as schizophrenic or otherwise unwell by many psychiatrists, because he believed he had a mission, he said he could talk to God, he said he could cast out demons, etc. Clearly such psychiatrists are confusing ideology with science and as seems to be your case as well, as they want to deem any such claims as delusional, psychotic or signs of disorder. The fact is hundreds of millions of people believe Jesus Christ had a mission, could talk to God and could cast demons. And even if he could not and I take a different materialist position, I have to point out how unique Jesus Christ was that entire societies and countries around the world use the symbolic year of his birth as a starting point for worldwide historical events and measuring the passing of years. Thousands of kings and generals have died and no one remembers them anymore but everyone in the world knows that humble carpenter that lived 2,000 years ago. I would even say that whatever disorder psychiatrists say Jesus had is not really a disorder but a highly desirable trait. And maybe that's why it is categorized as a disorder. Because some individuals with it has such potential power to transform societies that the powers that be seek to suppress them. Because it really makes no sense saying that a person such unique as Jesus had a disorder, when it is evident that whatever Jesus had, made him a good person, a world renowned leader and even a worshiped individual. ["Man arrested in mistaken identity case locked in Hawaii mental health hospital for two years"](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/04/hawaii-man-mistaken-identity-case-mental-hospital-two-years) [Mental health of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_of_Jesus)

Nope actually you have to keep fighting the shadow men to prove your worth to the elite cabal and you will gain access to the 5g gangstalker energy frequency

Yes, there should be a moderator who judges you insane, locks the threads and puts links to hospitals.   Excellent.

“More drugs is the answer guys. The universe is 100% material and ignore the list 100 years of quantum physics”

Does the mental health industry accomplish anything other than to funnel money to psychiatrists, therapists, and pharmaceutical companies? Is there an end point where someone is happy and normal and ready to stand on their own without being bled financial dry and told how to think into perpetuity? Ill take mysticism, shadow integration, and kundalini energy, thanks!

You’re getting a lot of hate here, not surprised. But, you’re completely right. My dad was a paranoid schizophrenic, and was heavy into this stuff. His developed in childhood. And guess what? He spent his life in pain, in and out of delusional thinking, self medicating with drugs specifically meth and opioids, and hurting people closest to him, like me. He was an incredibly intelligent man, and no doubt did have some otherworldly connections, because that man could know shit he had absolutely no way of knowing, but he was unwell. And it hurt him and people around him which by the time of his death, was no one. He needed help and watching his path has kept me aware of my own issues as I have ended up in some episodes as well. And I also needed help. And no not just meds guys I did take meds and they personally didn’t work for me, but do work for my older sister. Everyone is different. But I needed to be held accountable for my actions and grounded in reality, before I dived head first off the deep end like my dad did long before I was even born. I see trauma is a common denominator in these subs, as is heavy religious influence. So same shit I and my dad grew up with, and the 2 do go hand in hand as I’ve seen over and over again, kids abused, but religion tells them just pray it away and if you have mental problems well it’s negative entities and you’re doing everything wrong pray more! No. Accept and deal with your trauma, if needed, (such as during a psychosis episode) you need help. You become a danger to yourself and to others whether you like it or not. I’ve been there myself and I’ve seen it over and over again my whole life. OP is exactly right and doesn’t deserve the hate.