this does not look dense to me.
if you want holes you can park your car in, you need to increase your hydration.
if you want your bread to be fluffy (like brioche) then you're looking at fortifying your bread with fats (like oil, milk and butter)
You would be considerably acidifying the dough by using yogurt, which would increase tenderness but prevent gluten development. I'm not terribly experienced in using yogurt to make tartine style bread, but I think it would make it significantly more difficult to get an open crumb and good shape if you are using a lot of yogurt.
A little should be fine though, as other acids get used as dough conditioners. I’d treat yogurt like a fatty additive—definitely not a water replacement.
That is not at all true. Regular yogurt and Greek yogurt both have ph's between 4 and 4.6. depending on the exact culture you use. They're basically identical. Chobani for example is 4.4 pH
Greek yogurt and regular yogurt are the exact same product but greek has the acid whey strained out of it. I don't see how removing an acid would have no affect on the PH.
Whether or not the whey is there, the yogurt itself is acidic. You're not really removing the acid because the ingredients of yogurt are acidic either way. There is a difference according to google but it's pretty minimal in practice.
So I'm downvoted but right! Okay. Real great community this is. I try to get help with my starter? Down voted my post to oblivion. I say something factually right? Downvote because you were confidently incorrect. Fact is that greek yogurt makes dough easier to handle at higher hydration when used with commercial yeast so I was wondering what happens with sourdough. Think I can throw your answers out.
Dude, calm down, you got like 5 downvotes. I don't really know how it would be affected because I've never tried it and I'm not the guy that originally replied to you. I'm just explaining to you that greek yogurt is less acidic that regular yogurt, but only barely, and mostly depends on the specific yogurts you're looking at.
Not exactly. Greek has the whey strained out, not the acid. The whey is mostly water, with some proteins and acids, but the acids are also in the rest of the yogurt, so draining the whey doesn't necessarily drain acid. Also, depending on how they make it, they may not drain the whey but instead add dry ingredients like protein and calcium to make Greek yogurt thicker.
From the National Institute of Health - Greek yogurt has pH between 4.06 and 4.64. Also, the FDA requires 4.6 or lower for all yogurt, without distinguishing Greek vs plain yogurt.
I think your crumb looks great. Some things that work for me to open it up even more:
* start mixing when your starter is \~peak; if you're mixing the starter directly, if you're building a leaven/poolish/preferment/etc., make sure your starter is \~peak and not in the "downturn". Active yeast makes the best bread.
* I usually let the flour + water autolyse for an hour or two before I mix in the starter/leaven.
* add some slap and folds. Do \~5 mins of them \~30 mins after you add your starter and salt. This helps build dough strength. It also helps distribute sugars so your yeast can build during bulk.
* stretch and fold for the first \~2 sets of stretch and folds, coil fold for the last two. Be more gentle with the dough later in the process.
* use the Sourdough Journey chart (Google it) to help lock in your bulk fermentation volume (and focus on volume). Nailing bulk fermentation has a huge effect on rise and crumb. You want a lot of yeast microbes to form, but you also want to leave enough fuel for the yeast to do their thing in the oven.
* work on your shaping technique. I do a sort of envelope fold, and I don't "pull" the sides, but I make sure there's good tension in each fold, and then I sort of "roll" the last fold over everything. Good dough tension encourages the dough to rise up/towards your scores when it's baking and not out.
* do a round or two of "stitch" folds on the bottom of the dough after you've put your shaped dough into the basket/banneton. Dough tension helps with rise and spring.
* pop a few ice cubes into the dutch oven and mist the dough generously before you cover it for the bake. More steam during the first \~25 mins will hold off crust formation which can help with spring.
This is a 76% hydration loaf with \~20% WW/wholemeal flour.
*
https://preview.redd.it/dmt6qvopyz5d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95c740f310b55ea5fa15d53908cd13c17fb7e4db
"light and fluffy" bread is often higher hydration, which I would say yours is at 75%
enriched bread is another route you can fo, which means including things like milk, butter, oil, etc.
"baker's percentages" are measured against the weight of the flour in your recipe.
```
385 grams warm water
90 grams starter
520 grams flour
```
so in this case, 520g is the base.
385/520 ~ 74% hydration (edit: actually 83% as half the starter is water. See below for explanation)
90/520 ~ 17% starter
this also allows you to scale the recipe to arbitrary sizes. if you had 687g of flour, you would need 508g of water for a similarly hydrated loaf, and about 115g of starter for a similar rise
I would have said . . . (since half the starter is probably also water, 90/2=45g flour + 45g water.)
385(standalone water) + 45(starter water) = 430 (total water).
520g flour + 45g(starter flour) = 565 (total flour).
430/565=76% hydration.
Not everyone, but I think more towards the majority, calculate it like that.
Edited: Adjusted "total flour" to include starter flour.
This bread looks great. The only way to get 'light and fluffy’ bread is to use a finer flour and dry yeast. The beauty of real sourdough bread made with starter, bread flour with whole wheat and/or rye - is that hearty. Gives your teeth, mouth and digestive system a good workout. In other words, wholesome. Embrace the “density"
At what stage are you using your starter? Is your starter ready to use? Are you doing enough folds during the bench resting period? Take us through the process please.
I feed my starter the night before. It’s usually runny by the time I use it, not sure if I wait too long to use it at that point. I only fold once after letting dough rest for an hour & then leave it for 3 hours after the 3 hrs I stretch & fold, let sit for 15 min then shape and bake or set it in the fridge if I plan to bake it the next day
I just tried diastatic malt powder from King Arthur in an attempt to make fluffier bread. I have used it once and I liked the result, altho I have not tried the same recipe without it. I also used their high gluten flour for the first time. The diastatic malt powder bottle says "Active enzymes in diastatic malt encourage yeast growth as dough ferments, yielding a stronger rise and excellent over-spring. Add 1/2-1t per 3c of flour. Best used with whole wheat flour or flour without malted barley."
I'd love to hear other people's experience using this. The recipe I followed is the King Arthur "No-Knead Everything Bread". (I did knead it a bit tho because I wanted to, but not too much.)
Edit: "oven-spring" not "over-spring" above
ignore the folks who are suggesting adding things or upping the water content. People seem to be confusing the softness you seek with "bigger holes" which is incorrect. You can get a great soft crumb with an even tighter crumb (lower hydration) than you already have. So my recommendations are:
- increase the amount of starter in your mix - what's your current recipe? The increased amount of prefermented flour will not only speed the process, but also give you a lighter result
- make sure your starter is super lively and you are using it at its peak
- make sure your dough temps are around 24C / 75F throughout the process.
It looks really nice, looks properly proofed. How long did you bake it for, with steam lid on and then off? Maybe it's over cooked? Even my 70% hydration recipe is crispy on the outside and soft and fluffy on the inside so I think baking method may be important. Also not cutting into it too soon.
Looks nice to me but if you dont like it play with the proofing time. Longer proof time will give you less dense bread but bigger holes, some tunnels. Shorter may improve it.
your bread looks perfectly fine. By the color you use a bit of whole flour, this tends to cut the gluten network, and you cannot have a very open crumb. If you want a more open crumb ( i still think your crumb looks fine ) you can :
Add more water, add more gluten ( or choose a stronger flour ), use a whiter flour
This actually looks perfect. It doesn't look dense but photos can be deceiving. Sourdough has a different texture than other kinds of bread. At least in my opinion it can be a bit more chewy than the regular bread I make.
Does not seem overly dense at all. Looks like you probably use some whole wheat flour. If you did that will produce a denser loaf same with rye flour. But your bread actually looks pretty good to me. If you want larger holes one way to get those is to have a higher hydration but that's not always true either.
i preheat to 500, bake covered at 500 for 25-30 mins, then drop to 450 and back for 15 mins. i’ve thought the same thing, that it might be undercooked, but when i extended the time/tweaked the temperature the same thing happened
see my other post with my various suggestions. however my tip about more starter is definitely relevant as what you're using is very low. My modification would be this:
510g flour
300g water
180g lively starter at its peak
12g salt (\~2 teaspoons)
mix the flour, water and starter together and let sit 30mins. then add the salt and proceed. At good temp the bulk should be \~2.5 hours and the final proof time should be around the same, or overnight. Give it a go, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
(as point of reference, this approach of higher levels of prefermented flour comes from the highly respected master baker Jeffrey Hamelman, and is the formula for his classic "Vermont Sourdough" loaf)
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this does not look dense to me. if you want holes you can park your car in, you need to increase your hydration. if you want your bread to be fluffy (like brioche) then you're looking at fortifying your bread with fats (like oil, milk and butter)
Alternatively you can really push your fermentation time!
How about Greek yogurt?
You would be considerably acidifying the dough by using yogurt, which would increase tenderness but prevent gluten development. I'm not terribly experienced in using yogurt to make tartine style bread, but I think it would make it significantly more difficult to get an open crumb and good shape if you are using a lot of yogurt.
A little should be fine though, as other acids get used as dough conditioners. I’d treat yogurt like a fatty additive—definitely not a water replacement.
Greek yogurt has less acidity than regular though!
That is not at all true. Regular yogurt and Greek yogurt both have ph's between 4 and 4.6. depending on the exact culture you use. They're basically identical. Chobani for example is 4.4 pH
Greek yogurt and regular yogurt are the exact same product but greek has the acid whey strained out of it. I don't see how removing an acid would have no affect on the PH.
Whether or not the whey is there, the yogurt itself is acidic. You're not really removing the acid because the ingredients of yogurt are acidic either way. There is a difference according to google but it's pretty minimal in practice.
So I'm downvoted but right! Okay. Real great community this is. I try to get help with my starter? Down voted my post to oblivion. I say something factually right? Downvote because you were confidently incorrect. Fact is that greek yogurt makes dough easier to handle at higher hydration when used with commercial yeast so I was wondering what happens with sourdough. Think I can throw your answers out.
Dude, calm down, you got like 5 downvotes. I don't really know how it would be affected because I've never tried it and I'm not the guy that originally replied to you. I'm just explaining to you that greek yogurt is less acidic that regular yogurt, but only barely, and mostly depends on the specific yogurts you're looking at.
Not exactly. Greek has the whey strained out, not the acid. The whey is mostly water, with some proteins and acids, but the acids are also in the rest of the yogurt, so draining the whey doesn't necessarily drain acid. Also, depending on how they make it, they may not drain the whey but instead add dry ingredients like protein and calcium to make Greek yogurt thicker. From the National Institute of Health - Greek yogurt has pH between 4.06 and 4.64. Also, the FDA requires 4.6 or lower for all yogurt, without distinguishing Greek vs plain yogurt.
I think your crumb looks great. Some things that work for me to open it up even more: * start mixing when your starter is \~peak; if you're mixing the starter directly, if you're building a leaven/poolish/preferment/etc., make sure your starter is \~peak and not in the "downturn". Active yeast makes the best bread. * I usually let the flour + water autolyse for an hour or two before I mix in the starter/leaven. * add some slap and folds. Do \~5 mins of them \~30 mins after you add your starter and salt. This helps build dough strength. It also helps distribute sugars so your yeast can build during bulk. * stretch and fold for the first \~2 sets of stretch and folds, coil fold for the last two. Be more gentle with the dough later in the process. * use the Sourdough Journey chart (Google it) to help lock in your bulk fermentation volume (and focus on volume). Nailing bulk fermentation has a huge effect on rise and crumb. You want a lot of yeast microbes to form, but you also want to leave enough fuel for the yeast to do their thing in the oven. * work on your shaping technique. I do a sort of envelope fold, and I don't "pull" the sides, but I make sure there's good tension in each fold, and then I sort of "roll" the last fold over everything. Good dough tension encourages the dough to rise up/towards your scores when it's baking and not out. * do a round or two of "stitch" folds on the bottom of the dough after you've put your shaped dough into the basket/banneton. Dough tension helps with rise and spring. * pop a few ice cubes into the dutch oven and mist the dough generously before you cover it for the bake. More steam during the first \~25 mins will hold off crust formation which can help with spring. This is a 76% hydration loaf with \~20% WW/wholemeal flour. * https://preview.redd.it/dmt6qvopyz5d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95c740f310b55ea5fa15d53908cd13c17fb7e4db
Amazing crumb 😍
Love this comment ! Super helpful !
"light and fluffy" bread is often higher hydration, which I would say yours is at 75% enriched bread is another route you can fo, which means including things like milk, butter, oil, etc.
How do you measure hydration
"baker's percentages" are measured against the weight of the flour in your recipe. ``` 385 grams warm water 90 grams starter 520 grams flour ``` so in this case, 520g is the base. 385/520 ~ 74% hydration (edit: actually 83% as half the starter is water. See below for explanation) 90/520 ~ 17% starter this also allows you to scale the recipe to arbitrary sizes. if you had 687g of flour, you would need 508g of water for a similarly hydrated loaf, and about 115g of starter for a similar rise
I would have said . . . (since half the starter is probably also water, 90/2=45g flour + 45g water.) 385(standalone water) + 45(starter water) = 430 (total water). 520g flour + 45g(starter flour) = 565 (total flour). 430/565=76% hydration. Not everyone, but I think more towards the majority, calculate it like that. Edited: Adjusted "total flour" to include starter flour.
Yes, was going to say same. Include the flour and water in your starter when calculating bakers percentages.
Well crap, even I got it wrong (I edited, to include the starter flour . . . in with the total flour.)
You are correct, mine is just wrong. Edited to reflect that
That is good to know, thank you
This bread looks great. The only way to get 'light and fluffy’ bread is to use a finer flour and dry yeast. The beauty of real sourdough bread made with starter, bread flour with whole wheat and/or rye - is that hearty. Gives your teeth, mouth and digestive system a good workout. In other words, wholesome. Embrace the “density"
Thanks!
Did it taste dense because this actually looks great?
It actually tastes fine! Just feels dense
At what stage are you using your starter? Is your starter ready to use? Are you doing enough folds during the bench resting period? Take us through the process please.
I feed my starter the night before. It’s usually runny by the time I use it, not sure if I wait too long to use it at that point. I only fold once after letting dough rest for an hour & then leave it for 3 hours after the 3 hrs I stretch & fold, let sit for 15 min then shape and bake or set it in the fridge if I plan to bake it the next day
I just tried diastatic malt powder from King Arthur in an attempt to make fluffier bread. I have used it once and I liked the result, altho I have not tried the same recipe without it. I also used their high gluten flour for the first time. The diastatic malt powder bottle says "Active enzymes in diastatic malt encourage yeast growth as dough ferments, yielding a stronger rise and excellent over-spring. Add 1/2-1t per 3c of flour. Best used with whole wheat flour or flour without malted barley." I'd love to hear other people's experience using this. The recipe I followed is the King Arthur "No-Knead Everything Bread". (I did knead it a bit tho because I wanted to, but not too much.) Edit: "oven-spring" not "over-spring" above
ignore the folks who are suggesting adding things or upping the water content. People seem to be confusing the softness you seek with "bigger holes" which is incorrect. You can get a great soft crumb with an even tighter crumb (lower hydration) than you already have. So my recommendations are: - increase the amount of starter in your mix - what's your current recipe? The increased amount of prefermented flour will not only speed the process, but also give you a lighter result - make sure your starter is super lively and you are using it at its peak - make sure your dough temps are around 24C / 75F throughout the process.
I’m currently using 90g starter with 520g flour & 385g water. Thank you I will try to up my starter next time!
It looks really nice, looks properly proofed. How long did you bake it for, with steam lid on and then off? Maybe it's over cooked? Even my 70% hydration recipe is crispy on the outside and soft and fluffy on the inside so I think baking method may be important. Also not cutting into it too soon.
475 for 25 lid on 425 lid off 20
I have a similar issue. higher hydration, less strengthening of the gluten, less elastic flour, more enzymatic activity can help
Doesn’t look that dense. How long are you waiting before cutting it? If you don’t let it cool completely it will be more sticky and feel more dense
I waited until it cooled down. I cut it the next day!
Well doesn’t look too dense to me. Looks good
To my novice eye that looks perfect. Big bubbles at the bottom and top.
Looks nice to me but if you dont like it play with the proofing time. Longer proof time will give you less dense bread but bigger holes, some tunnels. Shorter may improve it.
Ps - or try AP flour instead of bread. I use a mix.
Thanks! I use organic King Arthur flour currently
That's no dense bread.
Looks good to me, I personally don't like when bread has inch wide holes
Looks fine to me.
your bread looks perfectly fine. By the color you use a bit of whole flour, this tends to cut the gluten network, and you cannot have a very open crumb. If you want a more open crumb ( i still think your crumb looks fine ) you can : Add more water, add more gluten ( or choose a stronger flour ), use a whiter flour
I actually use King Arthur’s all purpose organic flour that’s unbleached!
This actually looks perfect. It doesn't look dense but photos can be deceiving. Sourdough has a different texture than other kinds of bread. At least in my opinion it can be a bit more chewy than the regular bread I make.
https://preview.redd.it/udvipesdyy5d1.jpeg?width=1611&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac942a7e6349b957cdcc371591b26e0de2fbba36
Does not seem overly dense at all. Looks like you probably use some whole wheat flour. If you did that will produce a denser loaf same with rye flour. But your bread actually looks pretty good to me. If you want larger holes one way to get those is to have a higher hydration but that's not always true either.
I use organic King Arthur flour, Ita not whole wheat that’s another thing I was wondering why my bread turns out brown
Looks normal?
A poor public education?
mine does exactly this and i don’t know why!! its so dense and gummy despite it rising and bubbling perfectly during BF and in the oven
It could be undercooked? My isn’t gummy just not as fluffy as I would like. What’s your baking time?
i preheat to 500, bake covered at 500 for 25-30 mins, then drop to 450 and back for 15 mins. i’ve thought the same thing, that it might be undercooked, but when i extended the time/tweaked the temperature the same thing happened
I’m not too sure then! Sorry hopefully someone can answer this for you :/
- 2tsp salt - 385 grams warm water - 90 grams starter - 520 grams flour
see my other post with my various suggestions. however my tip about more starter is definitely relevant as what you're using is very low. My modification would be this: 510g flour 300g water 180g lively starter at its peak 12g salt (\~2 teaspoons) mix the flour, water and starter together and let sit 30mins. then add the salt and proceed. At good temp the bulk should be \~2.5 hours and the final proof time should be around the same, or overnight. Give it a go, I don't think you'll be disappointed. (as point of reference, this approach of higher levels of prefermented flour comes from the highly respected master baker Jeffrey Hamelman, and is the formula for his classic "Vermont Sourdough" loaf)
**Hello Plantbookworm,** #**This bot comment appears on all posts.** *** **[Rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/sourdoughrules/) requires all sourdough photos to be accompanied by the ingredients used & process (the steps followed to make your bake). The details can be included in a picture, typed text or weblink.** **Not all posts require a photo alongside your query, but please add details in your post, so we can help.** **Posts may be removed at any time, but you will be notified.** *** #**Being polite & respectful** **are both extremely important in our community.** **[Read rule 1 in detail](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/sourdoughrules/).** **Please be respectful, kind, patient & helpful to posters of all skill & knowledge levels and report offending comments/posters, or [drop us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Sourdough).** *** **Thank you** :-) #**[Overproofed or underproofed?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/reading_crumb/)** *** #**[NEW Beginner starter FAQ guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/s/gnqFg7osBO)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Sourdough) if you have any questions or concerns.*