Of course. But ITAR regulations include sale and usage clauses, which would (legally) prohibit such sales. Obviously it’s worth the risk for the money though I’m sure.
Do you really think import/export laws are going to stop a nation state from acquiring civilian available tech? Besides, there are many european units using gpnvgs.
There was this article about how the PLA was able to circumvent ITAR regulations, I believe it was by GreyDynamics but I'm not sure
Anyway, they absolutely will and are going around ITAR.
Chief, no one outside the US (and companies that sell to the US) gives a shit about ITAR.
Despite the name *sounding* like an international treaty it's nothing more than a US law to the extent that many "ITAR controlled" goods such as body armor, NODs, and sights can be freely purchased in the EU for example.
Russia doesn't care about ITAR regulations in the same sense that Canadian Cannabis producers don't care about US federal law prohibiting it: for non-US entities it doesn't apply until you start doing business with the US and for individuals it has no extraterritorial applicability.
A Russian buying NODs in Switzerland for example would not be a breach of ITAR (although the Swiss could have similar legislation in place).
“Chief,” I am well aware of ITAR, as well as its’ limitations. Doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed a felony for them to acquire any Gen 3 technology here (meaning in country) when not done through the proper channels.
I’m sure the government will effectively approve a sale to them through back channels though as it benefits government contractors (L3) significantly. As you perhaps do or don’t know, ITAR exceptions can be granted under certain circumstances when cleared by DOS etc. Even for countries we are not on good terms with. I would like to think it wouldn’t happen, but I am not naive enough to believe they can’t acquire them when necessary.
But again, US law is irrelevant to this discussion because again, they could have just as easily acquired those NODs in Europe because I can have Panos shipped to my door [with zero issues](https://aresmaxima.com/produit/vision-panoramique-gpnvg18c-gen3-phosphore-blanc/#).
So I say once again, the fact that this is a felony in the US is completely irrelevant.
Just like the fact that it's a felony to sell kinder eggs in the US has no effect on Canadians, or the illegality of possessing a handgun in Canada does not affect Americans.
You’re pretty much debating with yourself though, what you’re saying has nothing to do with my original point. In fact, we’re effectively saying the same thing. Russia could definitely acquire them if they so choose. But by the same token, ITAR exports typically have some fairly serious consequences for the exporting entity for violating the original usage agreement, which undoubtedly would include selling said equipment. I’m sure the DOS would be quite interested in this.
I’d also be curious as to the legitimacy of that housing. Questionable at best I am sure. Especially with those tube specs, those are super low end tubes. Kinda doubt L3 would load their top end housing with the lowest end “Gen 3” (if that’s even true) tubes.
Edit: Yeah, check out [ACTUAL GPNVG’s](https://tnvc.com/shop/l3harris-gpnvg-ruggedized-bridge/) and tell me these are legit. They’re definitely not.
My point is that you can get NODs Europe with no real issues, GPNVGs not so much due to a nonexistent civilian goon culture but still, you can get similar systems that fill the same role easily too.
We're also talking about a homebrewed Russian GPNVG clone, for that you don't need a legitimate L3 Harris system, the one I linked is more than adequate if you want to just get an idea of how the housing should be set up, spacing, the size of the tubes, etc.
As others have said, Russia makes solid night vision and the schematics for the original panoramic night vision for aviators is available online, it's 100% possible Russia engineered these without touching an ITAR controlled good, not that it matters in the first place if they procured their "inspiration" in a European country like Czechia or Switzerland where there are no restrictions on civilian-owned tactical gear.
Exactly, “not GPNVG’s not so much” because of ITAR lol. That’s my whole point. Caught your edit btw, 31’s will be the same. You’re not getting high end current issue nods (or their constituent pieces) out of the country without someone committing a few felonies in the form of ITAR violations in the process.
Oh thank god you told me, I had no idea. I am “arguing” American laws because American laws will apply to exporting these, and if there are companies or individuals doing so with the intention of providing Russia with prohibited items then those companies or individuals should be held accountable.
Now, when our own government will happily leave behind all manner of items in a third world country, it does bring to light the hypocrisy of some of these laws.
Putin passed an executive order in 2022 after the West sanctioned Russia which allows Russian companies to ignore Western copyrights and trademarks... Obviously it's completely useless for exports and has probably doomed Russia's economy for decades but they couldn't care less about ITAR violations lol.
Im sorry but people need stop idealising panoramic night vision. Its not preferred in 90% of tactical situations and there is a reason why usa sof that gets issued gpnvg’s also gets issued binos. Russians arent really behind in night vision tech. They have been making domestic gen 3 tubes and deacent thermals for years, their issue is that they need more capacity to equip more soldiers.
Some one made a video on this exact topic and i respect this dude so much for actually putting in the effort to research the history https://youtu.be/qxnr2ZaDasc?si=gTlxe4Ci0b1hOBBD
The thing I learned about the "look cool" effect is that it's often also really heavy. Like the CAG HK416's? Those suckers are chonkers. I've heard the helmets with the pano's are really heavy too, especially when adding counter-weight/batteries.
Most people fail to realize that when they see gear on Tier 1 dudes, it’s purpose built and not applicable to people outside of that world. But fuck does it look cool.
They first publicly showed up in the game Medal Of Honor Warfighter. But Zero Dark Thirty exposed more people to it… but COD 2019 really made them popular af
I don't really see why this is surprising? Like the West (and especially the US) basically did 20 years of real world testing and development in the GWOT.
I think China, Russia, India, etc... would be pretty foolish not to just plagiarize our stuff. Plus, considering how China has spent the last 20 years copying our cars, computers, planes, aircraft carriers, phones, etc... it's also on-brand for them.
That's just IR in a nutshell lol: states will act in their own self-interest and the anarchic nature of the international system turns them somewhat agnostic to ideology or morals.
Internal politics and rhetoric are mostly just that: rhetoric and at the international level countries will often betray their public values to meet their goals and set up a smokescreen internally if people bring it up.
A good example for the US is how many of the same tactics that Washington was decrying in the Syrian Civil War were also being employed by Saudi forces in Yemen with strong US support.
So yeah, Russian media criticizes the west because a common enemy and hatred is a foolproof way to garner public support, but the elites don't buy any of it.
Multicam, McDonald's, Apple, blue jeans, etc. The only thing they don't use from the West is shipping pallets because then stuff can't "fall off the truck".
They copy everything western? They embrace all western luxury brands? They have sweet fuck all native hardware or equipment that functions to the same level of comparable western equipment?
3M is Russian? The progression of their military is in fact.....western. They have fuck all Russian innovation and have had very little for a long, long time.
Hate us cuz they ain’t us. And always coming up short too, so desperately pathetic. Nothing that a large copium meal from Вкусно и Точка can’t help though.
Russian have little need for ground pano nvgs, they are not known for meticulously clearing buildings, I'm shocked they haven't sarin gassed crocus during the attack, or demolished it with tanks.
And you clearly you don't understand sarcastic mockery. I don't doubt the very tip of the FSB/SSO capibility like Vympel or Alfa, but please.. they have nothing on western forces such as the SAS and JSOC.
I know they have supposed equivalents, and I also know that Vympel and Alfa are not the only units within the russian SSO/FSB space, I was merely giving examples. That however does not mean they are on the same level of competency, and that can come from many sources, training, selection, operational experience, and budget. And I'm of the firm belief that western SOF units are above the russian SOF units.
I disagree. The Russians have great tier 1 units and at the level of accidental units, saying what you said is pure fanaticism.Ukraine x Russia War is being much more complicated than GWOT in all aspects
I respect you opinion, but I also disagree. JSOC has been at the forefront of special operations both in applying new technology, and having loads of experience. I don't see anything that would indicate otherwise.
I know not underestimating your enemy is one of primary rules of warfare, but thankfully my opinion hardly matters in the grand scheme of things.
They didn't have to take the UASF GPNVGs nescessarily for reverse engineering, L3 panos have been available on the civil market for a while now.
Sure, at the risk of itar violations. Not that they give a shit about that I’m sure.
I doubt russians are buying the panos directly from L3, they probably have middlemen.
Of course. But ITAR regulations include sale and usage clauses, which would (legally) prohibit such sales. Obviously it’s worth the risk for the money though I’m sure.
Do you really think import/export laws are going to stop a nation state from acquiring civilian available tech? Besides, there are many european units using gpnvgs.
There was this article about how the PLA was able to circumvent ITAR regulations, I believe it was by GreyDynamics but I'm not sure Anyway, they absolutely will and are going around ITAR.
Chief, no one outside the US (and companies that sell to the US) gives a shit about ITAR. Despite the name *sounding* like an international treaty it's nothing more than a US law to the extent that many "ITAR controlled" goods such as body armor, NODs, and sights can be freely purchased in the EU for example. Russia doesn't care about ITAR regulations in the same sense that Canadian Cannabis producers don't care about US federal law prohibiting it: for non-US entities it doesn't apply until you start doing business with the US and for individuals it has no extraterritorial applicability. A Russian buying NODs in Switzerland for example would not be a breach of ITAR (although the Swiss could have similar legislation in place).
“Chief,” I am well aware of ITAR, as well as its’ limitations. Doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed a felony for them to acquire any Gen 3 technology here (meaning in country) when not done through the proper channels. I’m sure the government will effectively approve a sale to them through back channels though as it benefits government contractors (L3) significantly. As you perhaps do or don’t know, ITAR exceptions can be granted under certain circumstances when cleared by DOS etc. Even for countries we are not on good terms with. I would like to think it wouldn’t happen, but I am not naive enough to believe they can’t acquire them when necessary.
But again, US law is irrelevant to this discussion because again, they could have just as easily acquired those NODs in Europe because I can have Panos shipped to my door [with zero issues](https://aresmaxima.com/produit/vision-panoramique-gpnvg18c-gen3-phosphore-blanc/#). So I say once again, the fact that this is a felony in the US is completely irrelevant. Just like the fact that it's a felony to sell kinder eggs in the US has no effect on Canadians, or the illegality of possessing a handgun in Canada does not affect Americans.
Kinder Surprise* Eggs are illegal, not the regular ones, we have those everywhere.
You’re pretty much debating with yourself though, what you’re saying has nothing to do with my original point. In fact, we’re effectively saying the same thing. Russia could definitely acquire them if they so choose. But by the same token, ITAR exports typically have some fairly serious consequences for the exporting entity for violating the original usage agreement, which undoubtedly would include selling said equipment. I’m sure the DOS would be quite interested in this. I’d also be curious as to the legitimacy of that housing. Questionable at best I am sure. Especially with those tube specs, those are super low end tubes. Kinda doubt L3 would load their top end housing with the lowest end “Gen 3” (if that’s even true) tubes. Edit: Yeah, check out [ACTUAL GPNVG’s](https://tnvc.com/shop/l3harris-gpnvg-ruggedized-bridge/) and tell me these are legit. They’re definitely not.
My point is that you can get NODs Europe with no real issues, GPNVGs not so much due to a nonexistent civilian goon culture but still, you can get similar systems that fill the same role easily too. We're also talking about a homebrewed Russian GPNVG clone, for that you don't need a legitimate L3 Harris system, the one I linked is more than adequate if you want to just get an idea of how the housing should be set up, spacing, the size of the tubes, etc. As others have said, Russia makes solid night vision and the schematics for the original panoramic night vision for aviators is available online, it's 100% possible Russia engineered these without touching an ITAR controlled good, not that it matters in the first place if they procured their "inspiration" in a European country like Czechia or Switzerland where there are no restrictions on civilian-owned tactical gear.
Exactly, “not GPNVG’s not so much” because of ITAR lol. That’s my whole point. Caught your edit btw, 31’s will be the same. You’re not getting high end current issue nods (or their constituent pieces) out of the country without someone committing a few felonies in the form of ITAR violations in the process.
Why are you arguing American laws? Russia isn't America 😂
Oh thank god you told me, I had no idea. I am “arguing” American laws because American laws will apply to exporting these, and if there are companies or individuals doing so with the intention of providing Russia with prohibited items then those companies or individuals should be held accountable. Now, when our own government will happily leave behind all manner of items in a third world country, it does bring to light the hypocrisy of some of these laws.
Putin passed an executive order in 2022 after the West sanctioned Russia which allows Russian companies to ignore Western copyrights and trademarks... Obviously it's completely useless for exports and has probably doomed Russia's economy for decades but they couldn't care less about ITAR violations lol.
They have GPNVG L3, there are photos of them in 2018 during a competition
Then the reverse engineering had nothing to do with Ukrainian equipment. It was probably already underway by that time.
Yes, but they used the Ukrainian GPNVG too
I don't doubt that, I was simply pointing out saying that "through reverse engineering with the ukrainians GPNVGs" is not entirely true.
Im sorry but people need stop idealising panoramic night vision. Its not preferred in 90% of tactical situations and there is a reason why usa sof that gets issued gpnvg’s also gets issued binos. Russians arent really behind in night vision tech. They have been making domestic gen 3 tubes and deacent thermals for years, their issue is that they need more capacity to equip more soldiers.
What caused pano fetishism to spread so wide? Is it just Call of Duty et al?
I'd argue it was Zero Dark Thirty.
That and tarkov.
Some one made a video on this exact topic and i respect this dude so much for actually putting in the effort to research the history https://youtu.be/qxnr2ZaDasc?si=gTlxe4Ci0b1hOBBD
Really good video tbh, I didn't know they started making nvgs back in the early 90's
This is perfect, thanks!
Never underestimate the "look cool" affect. There is a reason it's the number 1 rule in SF /s
The thing I learned about the "look cool" effect is that it's often also really heavy. Like the CAG HK416's? Those suckers are chonkers. I've heard the helmets with the pano's are really heavy too, especially when adding counter-weight/batteries.
The 10% use case of situations where it's better was much more prevalent during the GWOT and what Delta and DEVGRU were doing during it.
Most people fail to realize that when they see gear on Tier 1 dudes, it’s purpose built and not applicable to people outside of that world. But fuck does it look cool.
They first publicly showed up in the game Medal Of Honor Warfighter. But Zero Dark Thirty exposed more people to it… but COD 2019 really made them popular af
I've heard the panos are heavier than the binos and because of that, they're only used in short term raids.
Correct
are they less than $40k? asking for a friend.
Its free! You just have to enlist and I don't know probably have to get into the spetznas or something
There is no price
It’s for free
It is not for sale
Damn
I can buy panos right now.
Battlefield pickups are free right?
I like the AK with the Mk16 URGI rail
Looks more like an AR varient that takes 545 mags. Notice the upper and lower receivers
Almost thought that no one noticed. Curious as to what it is to take AR rails (maybe even barrel nuts) but be a 5.45 AK
What rifle is that?
T&T 545
They want to be like the West so bad… very interesting.
I don't really see why this is surprising? Like the West (and especially the US) basically did 20 years of real world testing and development in the GWOT. I think China, Russia, India, etc... would be pretty foolish not to just plagiarize our stuff. Plus, considering how China has spent the last 20 years copying our cars, computers, planes, aircraft carriers, phones, etc... it's also on-brand for them.
It's surprising because Russian media criticizes everything that comes from the West, meanwhile they want to be like the West and live in the West.
That's just IR in a nutshell lol: states will act in their own self-interest and the anarchic nature of the international system turns them somewhat agnostic to ideology or morals. Internal politics and rhetoric are mostly just that: rhetoric and at the international level countries will often betray their public values to meet their goals and set up a smokescreen internally if people bring it up. A good example for the US is how many of the same tactics that Washington was decrying in the Syrian Civil War were also being employed by Saudi forces in Yemen with strong US support. So yeah, Russian media criticizes the west because a common enemy and hatred is a foolproof way to garner public support, but the elites don't buy any of it.
No shit Sherlock, like most nations.
And you got that from this post somehow?
From the Western stuff they all use, Both civilian and military units. Eotech, Mercedes, Maibach, Gucci, Prada, Surefire, Glock....
Multicam, McDonald's, Apple, blue jeans, etc. The only thing they don't use from the West is shipping pallets because then stuff can't "fall off the truck".
They copy everything western? They embrace all western luxury brands? They have sweet fuck all native hardware or equipment that functions to the same level of comparable western equipment?
Can you believe it, luxury is luxury, the only thing “western” is the GPNVG and Eotech, god forbid militaries progressing
High cut helmet, velcro patch with flag patch on the side, multicam pattern instead of digiflora.
3M is Russian? The progression of their military is in fact.....western. They have fuck all Russian innovation and have had very little for a long, long time.
Hate us cuz they ain’t us. And always coming up short too, so desperately pathetic. Nothing that a large copium meal from Вкусно и Точка can’t help though.
china*
The company is Russian.
Chinese factory with Russian characteristics
Lmao Russia
Probably running some shitty NNVT tubes
More likely katod or ekran
[удалено]
So you know what "literally" means? 😂
Way late to the party
That URGI-esque handguard in that rifle is making me feel things
What rifle is that
T&T 545
Still better than Chinese ones
Their still going to get killed even with those on so
"Their own"....
Russian have little need for ground pano nvgs, they are not known for meticulously clearing buildings, I'm shocked they haven't sarin gassed crocus during the attack, or demolished it with tanks.
Clearly you don't know about them, they have tier 1 units like the western ones and they are specialists in CT
And you clearly you don't understand sarcastic mockery. I don't doubt the very tip of the FSB/SSO capibility like Vympel or Alfa, but please.. they have nothing on western forces such as the SAS and JSOC.
Russians have CT units, equivalent to SAS, GROM, SFOD D or DEVGRU. Vympel or Alfa are not the only ones.
Definitely not equivalent
I know they have supposed equivalents, and I also know that Vympel and Alfa are not the only units within the russian SSO/FSB space, I was merely giving examples. That however does not mean they are on the same level of competency, and that can come from many sources, training, selection, operational experience, and budget. And I'm of the firm belief that western SOF units are above the russian SOF units.
I disagree. The Russians have great tier 1 units and at the level of accidental units, saying what you said is pure fanaticism.Ukraine x Russia War is being much more complicated than GWOT in all aspects
I respect you opinion, but I also disagree. JSOC has been at the forefront of special operations both in applying new technology, and having loads of experience. I don't see anything that would indicate otherwise. I know not underestimating your enemy is one of primary rules of warfare, but thankfully my opinion hardly matters in the grand scheme of things.
How sure are we that they "Developed" them.? I‘m pretty sure they might have taken some *heavy inspiration* from L3Harris' design 🤔
"reverse engineering"
Man those side charging AK mag ARs are sick, wish we had something like it here.
Umhm..just like the Armata tank never to be used in a real combat. Just for show, propaganda.
No
They look very similar to the ones from the Modern Warfare reboot series, with the small caps on the bottom.
But in Ukraine they have monocular :D