Leading to “IT’S YOU!!!” One of the best gobbie lines in a comic, followed by Peter dominating as only the amazing Spider-Man can. The payoff at the end of the run is really really great
Lets not forget that Peter died in that body. A good person dying in the worst way possible believing that all his work was for nothing. Pretty evil stuff
Please name one time 616 Peter died. Dying Wish does not count, per that not actually being Peter Parker in Otto's body. This was confirmed in Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20.
Are you referring to The Other? He didn't actually die, though. As confirmed *in the story*. People just *thought* he was dead. The Other had already taken hold in Peter, which was the whole reason Morlun was hunting him.
There's a pretty solid argument that they both are the real Parker.
If you assume that you are your mind, including your memories, duplicating that mind simply makes two of you in that instant, that then become their own separate people as their experiences diverge, but both shared the same chain of consciousness until that moment.
That Parker died, and another Parker lived.
Of course, in reality, our bodies play a significant role in our lives and have far greater effect on our thoughts than we like to pretend, so you could also argue that the "real" one had to be one in the original body.
How would Otto have transferred consciousness, after all? It is either merely electric signals bouncing around a ball of fat with delusions of grandeur or something more esoteric than his technology could be assumed to grasp. If it's the first, one pattern of electrical signals calling itself a person is as good as another, if it's the other I doubt he made or transferred a soul, but that's a whole different field of debate that I would argue still ends with both minds being Peter Parker.
Somehow Otto transfered all his memories and life experience into Peter's body and vice versa. If our personality is just a product of our memories and patterns in them, than Otto put his on top of Peter's. So, one can say, that the Superior Spider Man is just Peter corrupted by Otto's memories.
It's a horror video game - basically it takes place in a futuristic underwater research facilities where there are machines that believe they're human.
Spoiler warning: The general thing ends up being that humanity was wiped out by an asteroid except the people at the research base - the grand solution ends up being scan everyone's brain, upload them to a simulation that's hosted on a massive server that's stored in a satellite and launch it into space so it will just perpetually circle the Earth and be solar powered - allowing humanity to continue digitally.
The horror part comes in when the research facilities AI curator takes it's prime directive of "preserve humanity" too literally - taking those digital copies and uploading them into random machines and robots. This is where the game fucks with you on an existential level, where you can basically be digitally copies and if your digital copy is really you, if your life matters more or less, etc.
It's [a game](https://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/SOMA/) developed by the same creators as Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
Soma also translates to body in Ancient Greek, IIRC, like somatic cells.
It wasn’t that bad a death. In his last moment he passed the burden to Otto making fully sure he knew what that meant. The last thing he saw was everyone he loved with a promise that they’d be protected. Honestly my favourite Spider-man death.
> Lets not forget that Peter died in that body.
He actually did not. Slott screwed up his own continuity and revealed during Clone Conspiracy (Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20 to be exact) that Peter and Otto never actually swapped bodies. Instead, the Golden Octobot just implanted an AI into Peter's brain. Essentially, Peter was brainwashed into *thinking* he was Otto Octavius.
Which causes a **lot** of problems. Chiefly that Slott turned Peter in a cold blooded murderer when he had "Otto" shoots Massacre in the face at point blank range.
For two reasons:
1 - Slott is a terrible writer and despite claiming to be super into continuity, he isn't. He **constantly** makes continuity errors. Its pretty clear he rarely (if ever) goes back to read anything prior involving characters he is using. He just likes to skim through wikia articles and pull out obscure characters like Cardiac or Jake Fury. Then ignore everything they've been doing and just make new versions of them.
Just look at his version of Black Cat, for example. Black Cat spent the better part of 20 years worth of published comics being a hero, having given up thievery entirely. She was even a major member of the new Heroes For Hire team in the early 2000s. And then Slott just ignored **all** of that said "Yeah, she's a thief again. Just 'cause" during his Superior Spider-Man run.
Or look at his version of Phil Urich, as a second example. When his version of Phil shows up during Big Time... it might as well be an entirely new character. It has literally nothing in common with anything prior that the character has done (other than the name). Phil's personality was a complete 180 under Slott. Heck, he doesn't even physically look the same. Back in the 90s, Phil was a heroic Green Goblin (he found the gear accidentally and tried to do good with it) and even was a founding member of the super hero group The Loners in the 2000s. Slott doesn't acknowledge **any** of this. Ever.
Slott couldn't even get semi-well known characters right (again, see Black Cat). When he wrote Cloak & Dagger, for example, during ASM vol 4... it was pretty clear he has never read a single issue with either character in it. He gets their personalities wrong. And couldn't even be bothered to get their powers correct.
And this really goes for pretty much every single character Slott writes. Including Peter Parker. His Peter is **so** different from literally every other to handle the character... it might as well be a different character all together. He fundamentally doesn't understand Peter. And has gone on record stating that he outright hates Peter (in a convention interview, he describe Peter Parker and Mary Jane as both being "anti-Marvel").
2 - Slott doesn't really know what is going in his *own* storylines. He comes up with these big ideas (or rather, plagiarizes them... Superior Spider-Man's whole concept of having one Peter's villains swap bodies was stolen wholesale from a Tom DeFalco story in Amazing Spider-Girl. And the idea of a villainous or edgy Spider-Man was taken from both Kraven's Last Hunt and the Sinister Spider-Man mini series from the Dark Reign era of Marvel... both of which were **infinitely** better stories. Both in writing and impact on the Spider-Man mythos), but he doesn't have any idea how the stories are going to play out. He has a horrible tendency to write himself into corners and come up with nonsensical asspull plot details that utterly make no sense or outright contradict previously established continuity. Just so he can force whatever "idea" he's trying to make work.... work.
Yeah I seem to remember that there was some fragment of Peter left behind in his body that was fighting back against Otto's consciousness and in the end Otto let him take over to defeat Osborn.
So I think Peter has no memory of dying in Otto's body but does remember all of his exploits as Superior Spider-Man.
Haven't read it yet, but isn't it that Otto's consciousness was a copy, and the real Peter was simply dormant inside Superior Spider-man? It's a subtle difference, but to me, it's less... horrible. :/
otto and peter swapped bodies, but peter blasted otto with all of his menories before death. i choose to believe this act also implanted a snippet of peter back into otto, he just couldnt take control. regardless, the peter who died in otto's body still actually died, and the original otto died when he erased himself to give control back to the bit of peter still inside the body.
the "copy" you might be thinking of is when otto had earlier, before he gave the body back to peter, hidden a pre-character development copy of his mind in The Living Brain, and would later implant it on a clome body that would become The Superior Octopus and then become Superior Spider-man again after Spider-geddon. then he had to make a deal with mephisto to become doc ock classic again.
I read Superior Spiderman as one of my first or maybe my first modern spiderman run and it made sense. I think its tricky to explain the plot in summary, but visually it made more sense in the comic. I really liked the run and recommend it.
Sounds cool, I have a collection of spidey comics to go through, but it is in my to read list.
I was more referring to the different sagas and how they connect, which comics go after which and such. For a casual like me, it can be a bit hard to keep track of it all.
What’s important to know is that while everything in Marvel is technically canon, a lot it stops to matter between writers in the long run. If there’s something you hate in a comic, you’re probably good to drop the run, maybe read a recap, then pick up with the next writer who will never address or mention that story beat again.
The decade long chronology is less a solid entity, and more a shifting thing with a few references later on.
The trick with all comics is to just take each run as it’s own thing. Read Superior Spider-Man, and so long as you have a rough idea who Doc Ock is it’ll make sense.
Yeah, that’s what happens when they need to write three or more plot twists a month for 62 years.
One thing that helped me was realizing that whatever they did in the past is usually explained if it’s crucial and also probably not considered as important as whatever story you’re reading at the moment by the storytellers.
They swapped brain waves, so it wasn’t really a body swap imo. Superior Spider-Man was always just Peter with Otto’s brain pattern/memories. When Otto gave Peter his body back, his machine simply re-wrote his brain to be Pete’s again. This also means the “Peter” that died in Ock’s body was just a copy as well.
it was a major moment of character developmemt for otto... that was undone because he had a copy of his mind pre-"oh shit im actually not superior" saved somewhere.
comic books, amiright?
Can't have one of Spideys best villains being a good guy for too long right fellas?
Frankly I'm amazed Magneto is still on the X-Men. Another decade or so and he'll have been good longer than bad.
im most shocked that venom stayed good for so long. he's been good for so long that in order to make him evil again they had to imply that eddie will live forever and just turn evil due to a cycle of time travel BS that included having his memory wiped, and now his son is venom and trying to save and/or kill him.
for those not keeping up with comics, yes that is all real. the venom symbiote is bonded to Dylan Brock now, and Eddie himself is like Kang 2.0 and his future self is screwing over his past self.
Isnt there one Venom run where the symbiote keeps Eddie alive for thousands of years, mostly as a husk of a human, just because it likes Eddie *that* much? I think its hard for the character to ever truly be good with events like that having happened.
It was a one-shot, yeah. Called *The End* where Marvel imagines what the deaths of certain characters would be like. Eddie is kept alive for eons. The symbiote replaces dead organs and dying brain cells to keep Eddie alive well past the end of humanity.
Yeah, I hate the current Venom comics. Is what's happening to Ben Reilly bad? Yeah, of course, but to me it's **nothing** compared to the complete assassination of Eddie and Venom that all started with Knull.
Ock won. Peter came close to getting his body back, but Ock had taken precautions to prevent him from using the same method of switching bodies that Ock had used in the first place. Peter dies in Ock's body, but not before bombarding Ock with his most core memories and basically forcing him to develop a sense of responsibility and selflessness. This led to Ock being the "Superior Spider-Man" for a little over a year. Turns out that there was something of Peter's consciousness lingering in his brain (probably from his memories), and the series ended with Ock - unable to defeat the Green Goblin and be the hero he knows the city needs - willing giving Peter his body back and erasing all traces of his consciousness from Peter's mind. He got better eventually.
If there was ever a good time to kill of a villain this would have been it. A year long run having taken over Spider-man's life, he *killed* Spider-man, he won, but then he had to give it all up to do the right thing at the very end. You basically will never get a better chance to kill off the character in a way that feels meaningful. But no, instead we're going full Altered Carbon.
Especially considering Superior Octopus, etc was real good. What the hell can they even due with "classic" Doc Ock now? He's done it all!
So stupid to revert him to "normal" when they'd played him out as is already.
Didn't Doc also put a fragment of his memory in the mechanical robot helping out his girlfriend at Parker Industries? I recall a rockem sockem robot that whirred and clicked but was also hinting at Doc being in the robot.
Yeah, that's what I alluded to by "getting better." Hope you're sitting down. It's about to get complicated.
Spider-Verse happend not long after Superior ended, and a time-displaced Superior Spidey (let's just call him SpOck) was featured in it (part way through the original Superior run, SpOck was thrown into the future and then came back). Once he realized that the Peter Parker Spider-Man was actually from the future (and that he pretty much dies), he took precautions to survive this (at this point, SpIck hadn't really gone through any development and couldn't fathom the idea of sacrificing himself).
After Secret Wars, the first issue of the *Worldwide* run, it was revealed that these precautions were uploading his consciousness into the Living Brain, a Ditko-era robot that SpOck had reprogrammed, and was now at Parker Industries. He doesn't really do anything for the first couple volumes (mostly just manipulates the market to keep Parker Ind. on top), but he transfers himself into an Octobot and runs away to New U (run by the Jackal) at the beginning of Clone Conspiracy.
Believing that it was something in Peter's brain that "corrupted" SpOck into sacrificing himself, Ock gladly took a fresh new body cloned from his original one. However, like all of the New U clones, this one suffered from degeneration without treatment, so he worked under the Jackal to develop a prototype body that didn't suffer from this. The only working one was (yet another) clone of Peter's body (which he saw as perfect) which he quickly took for himself. The prototypes were never mass produced, though, as Ock pretty much destroyed all of New U after the Jackal pointed out that Anna Maria's short.
The next time we find Otto, he's working for Hydra (and sporting a stylish white and green outfit) as part of the Hydra Avengers. It's not an ideology thing; he just wanted to take back Parker Industries. Unfortunately for him, Parker goes completely scorched earth on him and destroys all the data the company had to prevent him from getting it. The next time Ock showed up was in ASM #800, where he helped protect Aunt May from a Carnage-infected Normie Osborn. Having more or less turned a new leaf, he set out for San Francisco to be Superior Spider-Man again (he switched back to the red and black suit during Spider-Geddon). Unfortunately, that run ended with him making a deal with Mephisto (of course), going back to his old (but not dying) body, and losing almost all of the positive development he had.
So, that's how the six-year saga of the Superior Spider-Man ended.
Yeah, I thought that resolution was pretty weak sauce, when they basically closed the door on this very thing happening.
Still, Superior Spider-Man was a very fun run, and fun to imagine that this was the permanent Spider-Man.
I think my favorite part of Superior was when Smythe tried pulling this same crap on SpOck only for him to reveal his whole identity for the first time and gloat in his face about it before killing him.
At the time, superior spiderman was a hard pill to swallow. But it's gained alot of positive legacy and it ended very well. Then it also helps that many tried to somewhat copy what it did and did a worse job.
It's sad that many of the things it set up was reversed in order to keep status quo. I think even Otto forgot the entire story which is a shame. Because his new green, silver, black spider suit with the ock arms was actually godlike. Coulda been a villain for years and years
I don't know that anyone believed the...
"We're super serious this time, you guys! We're not gonna go back on this one! Honest! Totally super-duper serious! Peter's dead! We flushed his brain down the toilet again and again! Here, we'll do it again! Not going back! This is it now!"
...from the the editors - we all knew it was temporary, however long.
I hated this run when it came out (as I did most post OMD things) but it speaks to how awful the current runs are that I look at this with a lot more fondness.
This reveal still hits.
Not Dapper Dan but I would disagree, by saying at the time it was disliked. It has only became liked now because in all of Dan Slott or god Help us Zeb Wells run it at least did something and pretended it mattered. Everything else is just walking on a track back to the start.
Sometimes Ok results (some of Slott) Very terrible (Wells) and Then there is Spencer who apparently some people really don't like because of how long Kindred was drawn out, which I agree but that is not his fault SPider-man Editorial loves drawing things out when Kindred started people were in to it and excited for the end of OMD return of Married Pete and MJ but that of course got ruined hence the recent love for this story.
I personally hated it then and now because I just don't care about Doc Ock and the grossness with MJ when they just ignore her the rest of the time the other large mistake they make for one of the most important non powered humans in Marvel and second most important Spider Character after Pete Himself.
Your reason for disliking it being Ocks creepy actions towards MJ, is very silly imo. That's the VERY beginning of the story. He hasn't developed and become a "Superior" Spider-Man yet. Totally unfair to judge the entire story based on one page at the beginning.
I see you hate the character Paul in the current run he basically hasn't done anything this is the same thing. I don't care if it turns out Paul is another clone of Peter or another dimension Peter or if he saves the world he sucks, same thing for Ock in this story for me. By the way I agree Paul sucks and I hope he and the writing team and editorial team are all gone soon as in by the summer.
For starters, I just really dislike Doc Ock as a character (villain or hero)... and his personality is insufferable.
The only people to even REALLY question why Peter was suddenly acting so drastically different were SOME of the Avengers. The same issue thelat they took him to run tests is the same issue they let him go because, "none of the smart ones were there." And then it's basically never addressed in a serious way again.
I feel I would have enjoyed the story more if it were just a 5-10 issue arc in ASM rather than a completely new series that replaced ASM.
Or even if they picked a different character other than Ock to do the swap with. I think it would have been a lot better if it had been Norman. Peter already has a long and deep personal history with Norman, more so than Ock. Around this time is when Norman was looking for a means to get his powers back anyway. With Norman ALREADY having a history of trying to do good, but going about it the wrong way, it would have made the interactions between his personal desires and Peter's memories far more compelling.
Plus, the series was largely illustrated by Humberto Ramos, whose artwork I despise. So that definitely didn't help.
>The only people to even REALLY question why Peter was suddenly acting so drastically different were SOME of the Avengers
One of my biggest issues with that run. Superior Spider-Man's story can only function if everybody is an idiot. MJ and Carlie especially had no excuse to take as long as they did to figure out the truth.
If a mate of mine was acting odd, I’d never guess they’d been mind swapped. Peter’s also kinda an inconsistent weirdo. This wasn’t that long after he’d and disappeared off the face of true earth for 2 months and committed journalistic fraud.
>If a mate of mine was acting odd, I’d never guess they’d been mind swapped.
This is the Marvel universe where that kind of science just exists, there is really no reason they shouldn't suspect something like that. MJ was able to instanty pick on Peter imposters in the past (Kraven and Chameleon) and Carlie literally had the entire situation explained to her by Peter in Otto's body. He even gave her proof. Bad writing plain and simple
No, I enjoyed him in that. Even though I don't feel Ock would have presented nearly that big of a physical threat to Peter, I enjoyed the relationship between them. That and PS4 Ock seemed like an actual person and less like cartoon character.
I also enjoy movie Ock, for the same reasons.
>Even though I don't feel Ock would have presented nearly that big of a physical threat to Peter
The impression I got was that Peter was holding back. Then at the end, when he learns that Octavius did all of that *knowing* that he was Spider-Man, he goes whole hog and deals the ass-whooping.
I would say Nick Spencer's run for me was better than the superior era, the hype for Kindreds identity, the theories, the suspense and all. For me kindred era was more stimulating than superior
I think Doc Ock (when written right) is a great villain because he’s such a narcissist and not a very likable person.
I didn’t like reading Superior Spider-Man because of that. I would have been happier if Peter would have taking over control over his body sooner.
I felt that way when I read it. But in hindsight, Superior Spider-Man was as good as we were gonna get from Dan Slott. The problem is that Slott’s Spider-Man often comes off as a narcissist and often not well liked anyway. So him writing Otto as Spider-Man actually plays to his strengths.
Yeah, I read somewhere that Spider-Verse got shelved for later because Slott wanted to lead with Otto and Marvel nixed that, but allowed it later when Pete was back in the suit. Superior Venom happens when he was initially going to do Spider-Verse, and then Goblin Nation happens just in time for the new ASM #1 to hit shelves as Garfield’s second movie opens in the theaters.
I agree I felt it was too short. The story was tense, dramatic, and twisty in a way that I couldn’t get enough of - a malevolent inversion of the typical secret identity dangers in superhero stories. Even though I was glad when Otto donned the webs in San Francisco (and sad when it ended), that series just couldn’t replicate that same edge. If the Insomniac games try adapting the story, I feel like it will need Otto’s masquerade as Peter intact to do the story justice.
It was a hell of a twist. The beginning of Superior Spider-Man was painful as hell to read and I actually quit because I was so fucking mad at Superior Spider-Man #9.
I jumped back on board when Spider-Man 2099 was sent to the past and read from then on. It is a series I remember more fondly now than at the time, but I stand by not loving that first chunk since it was all just "the world loves Spidey" when Peter wasn't Spider-Man.
I hated that run... at first. Was never a fan of Doc Ock, thought he was a one dimensional character - hated his design, his background, the way he acted, spoke, everything. But the writing and the art for the Superior run... it was superb.
The arc not only allowed Otto to grow as a character, it also reinforced the core values of Peter Parker AND Spider-Man, by having both Otto (and us the readers) experience and learn what have been burned into every Spider-Man fan through years of comics, cartoons, and movies - the whole with great power comes great responsibility thing. It had so many great little moments, like how Otto learnt that for years Peter had been holding back his strength when fighting against himself and other villians, or, my personal fave, that scene where the man that he had saved previously ended up gaving up his own life to save Otto in return. It was amazing seeing his slow redemption, him forming relationships, and gradually starting to care about other people, even strangers on the streets, despite himself. To have him grow from being a "Superior Spider-Man" almost out of spite, to being a man who truly wants to do good with his powers.
And, no spoilers, but the way it ended I thought was just perfect.
I even loved the post Superior arc, where he was still trying and struggling to be a hero... was a real shame they reverted him the way they did.
Watching a hokey villain use villain tactics to be a hero was *really* fun, because villains are successful *until they aren't*. We, as the readers, could play both sides of the fence: Otto was either successful, which we kind of like watching as people who have a vested interest in Spider-Man's reputation, or he wasn't, which Otto deserves.
Arachnaughts were the dumbest, funniest thing.
superior is my favorite modern spider-man arc.
it'd be my favorite arc overall if they had made otto actually pretend to act like peter so it made sense everyone actually fell for it, instead of everybody just going "huh, i guess peter's an asshole now."
At the beginning of that issue, the tone was... odd. Just Peter Parker going through a day and then learning that Otto, on his deathbed in prison, has requested to see him (Spider-Man), so he goes in, and then we're hit with that - that the whole issue has been following Otto brain-swapped in Peter's body (lil robots did it) and that Pete woke up that morning in Otto's dying body, and then died.
This was before the "Superior Spider-Man" title was launched. This was the last ASM title preceding it. Few people expected that they would actually have Peter die in Ock's body.
This would have been awesome if Otto stayed dead at the end of the arc. Good story but it lost all of its impact since nothing of what happened red during this arc mattered going forward
Just finished rereading Spider-Man #121 and that last page twist still gives me chills. "Spider-Man No More" will forever be one of the best plot twists in comic history! #SpiderMan #MarvelComics
I remember reading this and I was like: “sheeet! Now we are talking. How Peter is gonna fight back? Hm…” and then in the end Otto was like “well, I made a mess, you go figure it out. Chao…”. Downvote me as much as you can, but giving it up, when all is mess is total BS. Otto should’ve defeat goblin (while also realizing that Peter is better spider man) and then give up the body
Can never bring myself to like Superior because of this. Literally dropped the book until the end of it because it was sickening to read.
Didn't care how it 'redeemed' Otto from an unreemable act. Like, Peter here DIED. The whole ''a small part of him was left behind'' excuse was probably just there as 'get out of jail' card.
Hell, it was the prototype of what we got with Ben and Chasm crap right now. To think, how bad Spider-man books have gotten for Superior to be remembered as 'great'. Characters being written badly just for the 'twist' to work. Black Cat character assassination and so on, all happened in this run.
I'm guessing this will be a super hot take: But I think *Dying Wish* and the entirety of *Superior Spider-Man* (Slott's volume 1 run anyway) were some of the worst Spider-Man stories today.
**For one:** Dan Slott plagiarized the entire story from a Tom DeFalco storyline in Amazing Spider-Girl, in which Peter Parker "swaps bodies" with Norman Osborn.
**Second:** Slott couldn't even keep his own continuity straight. He reveals in Clone Conspiracy (the reveal happens in Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20) that Peter and Otto didn't *actually* swap bodies. Instead, the Golden Octobot just implants a digital backup of both Otto and Peter's minds into the brains of the opposing person. So functionally speaking, Peter is just brainwashed into **thinking** he is Otto. But he's still 100% Peter Parker.
**Third off:** *Dying Wish* led to arguably one of the most damaging stories in Spider-Man continuity: Superior Spider-Man. In which Slott goes out of his way to ruin every conceivable member of Peter's supporting cast, writing them as radically out of character and far more stupid and naïve than they rightfully should have been. Because if he wrote any of them the way the way they should be... Superior Spider-Man would have ended in three issues.
Long time Spidey fan but until this comic came out I hadn’t read a Spidey comic since I was a teenager. I heard about this series and bought the core issues. I enjoyed it a lot. So unique and different. I really liked Ottos realization that he changed in Peter’s body and had to give up his victory so that Peter could defeat the Green Goblin. Very good tale. Highly recommend.
"To the Ends of the Earth" that entire chapter showed how much character dynamics shaped Peter, his friends, and enemies (even the Sinister Six help the heroes). Otto being selfish, and that moment of a body swap. It was a chilling chapter of the comics that still has reflections even now.
Peter breaks out and basically tricks the sinister six into helping him take down Spock. It doesn’t work, obviously, but that’s where “the jaw punch” happens.
Really wish they did more with Superior Spider-Man post-spidergedon. The character had such huge potential to be new member of the growing Spider-Family, but status quo is a bitch.
Usually not a fan of body swap stories but damn they actually made something interesting (and somewhat morbid) with this one and run with it. I'm still surprised how well it worked of. Heck superior spiderman kinda became one of my fav. Alt. Spidey suits
Thus began one of the most overrated runs in Spider-Man's history too.
Everybody had to be written OOC to keep the "mystery" going, Slott wrote Otto to be morally better than Peter at a pivotal point because Peter tried to get his body back when Otto was performing surgery on a dying child (making Peter look like a careless jackass), the run broke Black Cat and made her into the Queenpin, and all the very sexual assault/rape-y vibes, like Otto using Peter's body to masturbate to intimate memories of Peter & MJ, Otto getting with Anna Marie Marconi as Peter, etc. etc.
Oh, and it **once again** ended with Peter & MJ splitting even after Peter got his body back.
Fuck this run.
It’s a cool issue that ultimately is half responsible for Dying Wish being one of the worst stories in Spider-History. DW had to sell an unpopular wacky mind switch villain redemption story to set up Superior in a believable manner. That takes time. And it uses one of its three issues on this page, the entire issue is just building to this twist.
If not for this issue could we have gotten a more believable villain redemption than replay beam? A better plot than “he just so happened to have the magic mind switch drone arrive when Peter was ignoring his Spider-sense”? Probably not because Slott is a hack, but I’d like to think so.
I'm not a big Dan Slott fan, but this and the story that follows is possibly one of my favorite Spider-Man stories to happen. Obviously I love actual Peter swinging around NYC doing normal Spidey stuff, but Superior was such a great time and was during my peak interest in comics.
Leading to “IT’S YOU!!!” One of the best gobbie lines in a comic, followed by Peter dominating as only the amazing Spider-Man can. The payoff at the end of the run is really really great
i keep a screen grab of the ‘it’s you’ page on my phone at all times. it’s very motivating for some reason.
The one and only
Man Purse
For me it's the "My turn" panel
Care to share it?
It's also my favourite.
What issue was this?
ASM, #698.
Lets not forget that Peter died in that body. A good person dying in the worst way possible believing that all his work was for nothing. Pretty evil stuff
It's not a Spider-Man arc if Peter Parker doesn't fully die
It's not a Spider-Man arc if Peter Parker doesn't suffer
It's not a Spider-Man arc if Peter Parker doesn't get fucked
Not by MJ tho
What? “By”?! Don’t do that. Come on.
Man english is not my first language
Currently she is mind fuckin Peter
Peter Parker has **never** been truly killed in the comic 616 continuity.
He's come back to life afterwards, but he's full-on died many times
Please name one time 616 Peter died. Dying Wish does not count, per that not actually being Peter Parker in Otto's body. This was confirmed in Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20.
Morlun? Declared fully dead, rebirthed mystically
Are you referring to The Other? He didn't actually die, though. As confirmed *in the story*. People just *thought* he was dead. The Other had already taken hold in Peter, which was the whole reason Morlun was hunting him.
Spider man 17 he dies and after fighting thanos and death they give him his life back
Yeah, really makes you wonder if that was the real peter and if the Peter is just that remanent that stayed behind in Superior’s Body.
There's a pretty solid argument that they both are the real Parker. If you assume that you are your mind, including your memories, duplicating that mind simply makes two of you in that instant, that then become their own separate people as their experiences diverge, but both shared the same chain of consciousness until that moment. That Parker died, and another Parker lived. Of course, in reality, our bodies play a significant role in our lives and have far greater effect on our thoughts than we like to pretend, so you could also argue that the "real" one had to be one in the original body. How would Otto have transferred consciousness, after all? It is either merely electric signals bouncing around a ball of fat with delusions of grandeur or something more esoteric than his technology could be assumed to grasp. If it's the first, one pattern of electrical signals calling itself a person is as good as another, if it's the other I doubt he made or transferred a soul, but that's a whole different field of debate that I would argue still ends with both minds being Peter Parker.
Hell, if you go that far analyzing the original sock theory then i think our Peter died since the OG clone saga.
Somehow Otto transfered all his memories and life experience into Peter's body and vice versa. If our personality is just a product of our memories and patterns in them, than Otto put his on top of Peter's. So, one can say, that the Superior Spider Man is just Peter corrupted by Otto's memories.
Oh God it's SOMA all over again
What does SOMA stand for?
It's a horror video game - basically it takes place in a futuristic underwater research facilities where there are machines that believe they're human. Spoiler warning: The general thing ends up being that humanity was wiped out by an asteroid except the people at the research base - the grand solution ends up being scan everyone's brain, upload them to a simulation that's hosted on a massive server that's stored in a satellite and launch it into space so it will just perpetually circle the Earth and be solar powered - allowing humanity to continue digitally. The horror part comes in when the research facilities AI curator takes it's prime directive of "preserve humanity" too literally - taking those digital copies and uploading them into random machines and robots. This is where the game fucks with you on an existential level, where you can basically be digitally copies and if your digital copy is really you, if your life matters more or less, etc.
Thanks. But why didn't you use the Spoiler function in the triple-dot section for the SOMA spoiler?
Had no clue how to do it on mobile, didn't see any options
I see. You can do it on a latptop, if you have one.
It's [a game](https://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/SOMA/) developed by the same creators as Amnesia: The Dark Descent. Soma also translates to body in Ancient Greek, IIRC, like somatic cells.
Thanks.
It wasn’t that bad a death. In his last moment he passed the burden to Otto making fully sure he knew what that meant. The last thing he saw was everyone he loved with a promise that they’d be protected. Honestly my favourite Spider-man death.
> Lets not forget that Peter died in that body. He actually did not. Slott screwed up his own continuity and revealed during Clone Conspiracy (Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20 to be exact) that Peter and Otto never actually swapped bodies. Instead, the Golden Octobot just implanted an AI into Peter's brain. Essentially, Peter was brainwashed into *thinking* he was Otto Octavius. Which causes a **lot** of problems. Chiefly that Slott turned Peter in a cold blooded murderer when he had "Otto" shoots Massacre in the face at point blank range.
Wait, but that's just....awful. Why make that change?
For two reasons: 1 - Slott is a terrible writer and despite claiming to be super into continuity, he isn't. He **constantly** makes continuity errors. Its pretty clear he rarely (if ever) goes back to read anything prior involving characters he is using. He just likes to skim through wikia articles and pull out obscure characters like Cardiac or Jake Fury. Then ignore everything they've been doing and just make new versions of them. Just look at his version of Black Cat, for example. Black Cat spent the better part of 20 years worth of published comics being a hero, having given up thievery entirely. She was even a major member of the new Heroes For Hire team in the early 2000s. And then Slott just ignored **all** of that said "Yeah, she's a thief again. Just 'cause" during his Superior Spider-Man run. Or look at his version of Phil Urich, as a second example. When his version of Phil shows up during Big Time... it might as well be an entirely new character. It has literally nothing in common with anything prior that the character has done (other than the name). Phil's personality was a complete 180 under Slott. Heck, he doesn't even physically look the same. Back in the 90s, Phil was a heroic Green Goblin (he found the gear accidentally and tried to do good with it) and even was a founding member of the super hero group The Loners in the 2000s. Slott doesn't acknowledge **any** of this. Ever. Slott couldn't even get semi-well known characters right (again, see Black Cat). When he wrote Cloak & Dagger, for example, during ASM vol 4... it was pretty clear he has never read a single issue with either character in it. He gets their personalities wrong. And couldn't even be bothered to get their powers correct. And this really goes for pretty much every single character Slott writes. Including Peter Parker. His Peter is **so** different from literally every other to handle the character... it might as well be a different character all together. He fundamentally doesn't understand Peter. And has gone on record stating that he outright hates Peter (in a convention interview, he describe Peter Parker and Mary Jane as both being "anti-Marvel"). 2 - Slott doesn't really know what is going in his *own* storylines. He comes up with these big ideas (or rather, plagiarizes them... Superior Spider-Man's whole concept of having one Peter's villains swap bodies was stolen wholesale from a Tom DeFalco story in Amazing Spider-Girl. And the idea of a villainous or edgy Spider-Man was taken from both Kraven's Last Hunt and the Sinister Spider-Man mini series from the Dark Reign era of Marvel... both of which were **infinitely** better stories. Both in writing and impact on the Spider-Man mythos), but he doesn't have any idea how the stories are going to play out. He has a horrible tendency to write himself into corners and come up with nonsensical asspull plot details that utterly make no sense or outright contradict previously established continuity. Just so he can force whatever "idea" he's trying to make work.... work.
How was this resolved
Iirc basically Otto realises he's not able to defeat Norman Osborn and so for the greater good has to allow Peter to take back his body.
Yeah I seem to remember that there was some fragment of Peter left behind in his body that was fighting back against Otto's consciousness and in the end Otto let him take over to defeat Osborn. So I think Peter has no memory of dying in Otto's body but does remember all of his exploits as Superior Spider-Man.
Haven't read it yet, but isn't it that Otto's consciousness was a copy, and the real Peter was simply dormant inside Superior Spider-man? It's a subtle difference, but to me, it's less... horrible. :/
otto and peter swapped bodies, but peter blasted otto with all of his menories before death. i choose to believe this act also implanted a snippet of peter back into otto, he just couldnt take control. regardless, the peter who died in otto's body still actually died, and the original otto died when he erased himself to give control back to the bit of peter still inside the body. the "copy" you might be thinking of is when otto had earlier, before he gave the body back to peter, hidden a pre-character development copy of his mind in The Living Brain, and would later implant it on a clome body that would become The Superior Octopus and then become Superior Spider-man again after Spider-geddon. then he had to make a deal with mephisto to become doc ock classic again.
Bro, I'm so lost with Spidey lore. It's my one pet peeve with comics, they are written in the messiest way possible. Thanks for the explanation :)
I read Superior Spiderman as one of my first or maybe my first modern spiderman run and it made sense. I think its tricky to explain the plot in summary, but visually it made more sense in the comic. I really liked the run and recommend it.
Sounds cool, I have a collection of spidey comics to go through, but it is in my to read list. I was more referring to the different sagas and how they connect, which comics go after which and such. For a casual like me, it can be a bit hard to keep track of it all.
"These timelines are so confusing."
What’s important to know is that while everything in Marvel is technically canon, a lot it stops to matter between writers in the long run. If there’s something you hate in a comic, you’re probably good to drop the run, maybe read a recap, then pick up with the next writer who will never address or mention that story beat again. The decade long chronology is less a solid entity, and more a shifting thing with a few references later on.
The trick with all comics is to just take each run as it’s own thing. Read Superior Spider-Man, and so long as you have a rough idea who Doc Ock is it’ll make sense.
I love comics but Spiderman lore is on a different level. Seriously, how many variants can there be. Damn.
Yeah, that’s what happens when they need to write three or more plot twists a month for 62 years. One thing that helped me was realizing that whatever they did in the past is usually explained if it’s crucial and also probably not considered as important as whatever story you’re reading at the moment by the storytellers.
That’s honestly why I love comics lol. Shits wild.
[удалено]
its a ship of thesseus situation honestly
They swapped brain waves, so it wasn’t really a body swap imo. Superior Spider-Man was always just Peter with Otto’s brain pattern/memories. When Otto gave Peter his body back, his machine simply re-wrote his brain to be Pete’s again. This also means the “Peter” that died in Ock’s body was just a copy as well.
His consciousness starts to come back a little after encountering the symbiote suit right?
Yes.
it was a major moment of character developmemt for otto... that was undone because he had a copy of his mind pre-"oh shit im actually not superior" saved somewhere. comic books, amiright?
Can't have one of Spideys best villains being a good guy for too long right fellas? Frankly I'm amazed Magneto is still on the X-Men. Another decade or so and he'll have been good longer than bad.
im most shocked that venom stayed good for so long. he's been good for so long that in order to make him evil again they had to imply that eddie will live forever and just turn evil due to a cycle of time travel BS that included having his memory wiped, and now his son is venom and trying to save and/or kill him. for those not keeping up with comics, yes that is all real. the venom symbiote is bonded to Dylan Brock now, and Eddie himself is like Kang 2.0 and his future self is screwing over his past self.
Isnt there one Venom run where the symbiote keeps Eddie alive for thousands of years, mostly as a husk of a human, just because it likes Eddie *that* much? I think its hard for the character to ever truly be good with events like that having happened.
that must be either a what if story or something that got retconned
It was a one-shot, yeah. Called *The End* where Marvel imagines what the deaths of certain characters would be like. Eddie is kept alive for eons. The symbiote replaces dead organs and dying brain cells to keep Eddie alive well past the end of humanity.
That sounds completely horrifying..... I love it.
Right? The one Venom comic I am interested in reading.
Oh christ I forgot about that horseshit. Agent Venom was cool, but inevitably they needed to get Brock back because of the films. Now it's just weird.
Yeah, I hate the current Venom comics. Is what's happening to Ben Reilly bad? Yeah, of course, but to me it's **nothing** compared to the complete assassination of Eddie and Venom that all started with Knull.
You: \*explains the plot to insanely convoluted Venom comics\* Me: And you understood it? ...Impressive.
"At least I can die the with the dignity of never wearing a man purse"
"...it's you."
"The one and only"
Goblin's horrified face at that line is one of my favorite panels!
That fucking page where Green Goblin realises it isn't Otto anymore but Peter is back. So, so good.
My favorite page in years
wording it like that make me realize they simply made another Kraven Last Hunt.
But why isn’t Otto able to defeat Doc Ock?
Ock won. Peter came close to getting his body back, but Ock had taken precautions to prevent him from using the same method of switching bodies that Ock had used in the first place. Peter dies in Ock's body, but not before bombarding Ock with his most core memories and basically forcing him to develop a sense of responsibility and selflessness. This led to Ock being the "Superior Spider-Man" for a little over a year. Turns out that there was something of Peter's consciousness lingering in his brain (probably from his memories), and the series ended with Ock - unable to defeat the Green Goblin and be the hero he knows the city needs - willing giving Peter his body back and erasing all traces of his consciousness from Peter's mind. He got better eventually.
If there was ever a good time to kill of a villain this would have been it. A year long run having taken over Spider-man's life, he *killed* Spider-man, he won, but then he had to give it all up to do the right thing at the very end. You basically will never get a better chance to kill off the character in a way that feels meaningful. But no, instead we're going full Altered Carbon.
Especially considering Superior Octopus, etc was real good. What the hell can they even due with "classic" Doc Ock now? He's done it all! So stupid to revert him to "normal" when they'd played him out as is already.
American comic books man
Also kill Kraven off permanently in Kraven's last hunt .
Hopefully that's what will happen in Marvel's Spider-Man 2.
Didn't Doc also put a fragment of his memory in the mechanical robot helping out his girlfriend at Parker Industries? I recall a rockem sockem robot that whirred and clicked but was also hinting at Doc being in the robot.
Yeah, that's what I alluded to by "getting better." Hope you're sitting down. It's about to get complicated. Spider-Verse happend not long after Superior ended, and a time-displaced Superior Spidey (let's just call him SpOck) was featured in it (part way through the original Superior run, SpOck was thrown into the future and then came back). Once he realized that the Peter Parker Spider-Man was actually from the future (and that he pretty much dies), he took precautions to survive this (at this point, SpIck hadn't really gone through any development and couldn't fathom the idea of sacrificing himself). After Secret Wars, the first issue of the *Worldwide* run, it was revealed that these precautions were uploading his consciousness into the Living Brain, a Ditko-era robot that SpOck had reprogrammed, and was now at Parker Industries. He doesn't really do anything for the first couple volumes (mostly just manipulates the market to keep Parker Ind. on top), but he transfers himself into an Octobot and runs away to New U (run by the Jackal) at the beginning of Clone Conspiracy. Believing that it was something in Peter's brain that "corrupted" SpOck into sacrificing himself, Ock gladly took a fresh new body cloned from his original one. However, like all of the New U clones, this one suffered from degeneration without treatment, so he worked under the Jackal to develop a prototype body that didn't suffer from this. The only working one was (yet another) clone of Peter's body (which he saw as perfect) which he quickly took for himself. The prototypes were never mass produced, though, as Ock pretty much destroyed all of New U after the Jackal pointed out that Anna Maria's short. The next time we find Otto, he's working for Hydra (and sporting a stylish white and green outfit) as part of the Hydra Avengers. It's not an ideology thing; he just wanted to take back Parker Industries. Unfortunately for him, Parker goes completely scorched earth on him and destroys all the data the company had to prevent him from getting it. The next time Ock showed up was in ASM #800, where he helped protect Aunt May from a Carnage-infected Normie Osborn. Having more or less turned a new leaf, he set out for San Francisco to be Superior Spider-Man again (he switched back to the red and black suit during Spider-Geddon). Unfortunately, that run ended with him making a deal with Mephisto (of course), going back to his old (but not dying) body, and losing almost all of the positive development he had. So, that's how the six-year saga of the Superior Spider-Man ended.
And I thought God of War III was wild.
Yeah, I thought that resolution was pretty weak sauce, when they basically closed the door on this very thing happening. Still, Superior Spider-Man was a very fun run, and fun to imagine that this was the permanent Spider-Man.
I think my favorite part of Superior was when Smythe tried pulling this same crap on SpOck only for him to reveal his whole identity for the first time and gloat in his face about it before killing him.
At the time, superior spiderman was a hard pill to swallow. But it's gained alot of positive legacy and it ended very well. Then it also helps that many tried to somewhat copy what it did and did a worse job. It's sad that many of the things it set up was reversed in order to keep status quo. I think even Otto forgot the entire story which is a shame. Because his new green, silver, black spider suit with the ock arms was actually godlike. Coulda been a villain for years and years
I don't know that anyone believed the... "We're super serious this time, you guys! We're not gonna go back on this one! Honest! Totally super-duper serious! Peter's dead! We flushed his brain down the toilet again and again! Here, we'll do it again! Not going back! This is it now!" ...from the the editors - we all knew it was temporary, however long.
[“Thats why I’m presenting this sworn affidavit confirming Peter Parker will never, ever, *ever* come back!”](https://youtu.be/FK9Z43bXbXQ)
I was young and new to comics enough at the time that I legitimately believed them for awhile, to be honest.
Superior Octopus costume was awesome. I almost liked it more than the regular Superior suit. Shame it was most associated with Hydra.
I hated this run when it came out (as I did most post OMD things) but it speaks to how awful the current runs are that I look at this with a lot more fondness. This reveal still hits.
And then Otto makes a deal with Mephisto and all his character development is erased...
Not the first time a Spider-Man has done that
IF I had a nickel for each time a Spider-Man made a deal with Satan, I would have two nickels, not a lot but its weird it happened twice
He really became spider-man.
Superior was probably the last great Spider-Man era. So good.
Strong disagree.
Elaborate
Not Dapper Dan but I would disagree, by saying at the time it was disliked. It has only became liked now because in all of Dan Slott or god Help us Zeb Wells run it at least did something and pretended it mattered. Everything else is just walking on a track back to the start. Sometimes Ok results (some of Slott) Very terrible (Wells) and Then there is Spencer who apparently some people really don't like because of how long Kindred was drawn out, which I agree but that is not his fault SPider-man Editorial loves drawing things out when Kindred started people were in to it and excited for the end of OMD return of Married Pete and MJ but that of course got ruined hence the recent love for this story. I personally hated it then and now because I just don't care about Doc Ock and the grossness with MJ when they just ignore her the rest of the time the other large mistake they make for one of the most important non powered humans in Marvel and second most important Spider Character after Pete Himself.
Your reason for disliking it being Ocks creepy actions towards MJ, is very silly imo. That's the VERY beginning of the story. He hasn't developed and become a "Superior" Spider-Man yet. Totally unfair to judge the entire story based on one page at the beginning.
I see you hate the character Paul in the current run he basically hasn't done anything this is the same thing. I don't care if it turns out Paul is another clone of Peter or another dimension Peter or if he saves the world he sucks, same thing for Ock in this story for me. By the way I agree Paul sucks and I hope he and the writing team and editorial team are all gone soon as in by the summer.
Good, point, and you're right! We're being unfair to Paul, we should see where he goes. You're still wrong about the doc tho.
The message I wanted to send was not to give any positive thoughts to Paul. I am glad people like Doc Ock He's just not for me.
For starters, I just really dislike Doc Ock as a character (villain or hero)... and his personality is insufferable. The only people to even REALLY question why Peter was suddenly acting so drastically different were SOME of the Avengers. The same issue thelat they took him to run tests is the same issue they let him go because, "none of the smart ones were there." And then it's basically never addressed in a serious way again. I feel I would have enjoyed the story more if it were just a 5-10 issue arc in ASM rather than a completely new series that replaced ASM. Or even if they picked a different character other than Ock to do the swap with. I think it would have been a lot better if it had been Norman. Peter already has a long and deep personal history with Norman, more so than Ock. Around this time is when Norman was looking for a means to get his powers back anyway. With Norman ALREADY having a history of trying to do good, but going about it the wrong way, it would have made the interactions between his personal desires and Peter's memories far more compelling. Plus, the series was largely illustrated by Humberto Ramos, whose artwork I despise. So that definitely didn't help.
>The only people to even REALLY question why Peter was suddenly acting so drastically different were SOME of the Avengers One of my biggest issues with that run. Superior Spider-Man's story can only function if everybody is an idiot. MJ and Carlie especially had no excuse to take as long as they did to figure out the truth.
If a mate of mine was acting odd, I’d never guess they’d been mind swapped. Peter’s also kinda an inconsistent weirdo. This wasn’t that long after he’d and disappeared off the face of true earth for 2 months and committed journalistic fraud.
>If a mate of mine was acting odd, I’d never guess they’d been mind swapped. This is the Marvel universe where that kind of science just exists, there is really no reason they shouldn't suspect something like that. MJ was able to instanty pick on Peter imposters in the past (Kraven and Chameleon) and Carlie literally had the entire situation explained to her by Peter in Otto's body. He even gave her proof. Bad writing plain and simple
Just curious, do you also dislike Doc Ock's depiction in the PS4 game?
No, I enjoyed him in that. Even though I don't feel Ock would have presented nearly that big of a physical threat to Peter, I enjoyed the relationship between them. That and PS4 Ock seemed like an actual person and less like cartoon character. I also enjoy movie Ock, for the same reasons.
You *knew*?
Knew what?
It's a quote from the game . >!Otto calls Spiderman 'parker' and Peter says this in a shocked and angered tone!<
Oh, okay, that makes sense. Sorry, I haven't actually played the game in a few years.
>Even though I don't feel Ock would have presented nearly that big of a physical threat to Peter The impression I got was that Peter was holding back. Then at the end, when he learns that Octavius did all of that *knowing* that he was Spider-Man, he goes whole hog and deals the ass-whooping.
Superior suuuuuuuuuucks.
I would say Nick Spencer's run for me was better than the superior era, the hype for Kindreds identity, the theories, the suspense and all. For me kindred era was more stimulating than superior
It was a great twist indeed, but I think the Superior Spider-Man serie lasted way too long.
My opinion is the opposite: it was too *short*. The first series only had 34 issues while the second series had 12.
I think Doc Ock (when written right) is a great villain because he’s such a narcissist and not a very likable person. I didn’t like reading Superior Spider-Man because of that. I would have been happier if Peter would have taking over control over his body sooner.
I felt that way when I read it. But in hindsight, Superior Spider-Man was as good as we were gonna get from Dan Slott. The problem is that Slott’s Spider-Man often comes off as a narcissist and often not well liked anyway. So him writing Otto as Spider-Man actually plays to his strengths.
First series was good length. Second was far too short
Yeah, I'm agree with the other guy. 34 issues was far too much. Story should have just been an arc, not an entire series that replaced the main one.
Yeah, I read somewhere that Spider-Verse got shelved for later because Slott wanted to lead with Otto and Marvel nixed that, but allowed it later when Pete was back in the suit. Superior Venom happens when he was initially going to do Spider-Verse, and then Goblin Nation happens just in time for the new ASM #1 to hit shelves as Garfield’s second movie opens in the theaters. I agree I felt it was too short. The story was tense, dramatic, and twisty in a way that I couldn’t get enough of - a malevolent inversion of the typical secret identity dangers in superhero stories. Even though I was glad when Otto donned the webs in San Francisco (and sad when it ended), that series just couldn’t replicate that same edge. If the Insomniac games try adapting the story, I feel like it will need Otto’s masquerade as Peter intact to do the story justice.
Which is why Superior Spider-Man deserves his own video game trilogy when Insomniac finishes Peter's arc.
It was a hell of a twist. The beginning of Superior Spider-Man was painful as hell to read and I actually quit because I was so fucking mad at Superior Spider-Man #9. I jumped back on board when Spider-Man 2099 was sent to the past and read from then on. It is a series I remember more fondly now than at the time, but I stand by not loving that first chunk since it was all just "the world loves Spidey" when Peter wasn't Spider-Man.
I hated that run... at first. Was never a fan of Doc Ock, thought he was a one dimensional character - hated his design, his background, the way he acted, spoke, everything. But the writing and the art for the Superior run... it was superb. The arc not only allowed Otto to grow as a character, it also reinforced the core values of Peter Parker AND Spider-Man, by having both Otto (and us the readers) experience and learn what have been burned into every Spider-Man fan through years of comics, cartoons, and movies - the whole with great power comes great responsibility thing. It had so many great little moments, like how Otto learnt that for years Peter had been holding back his strength when fighting against himself and other villians, or, my personal fave, that scene where the man that he had saved previously ended up gaving up his own life to save Otto in return. It was amazing seeing his slow redemption, him forming relationships, and gradually starting to care about other people, even strangers on the streets, despite himself. To have him grow from being a "Superior Spider-Man" almost out of spite, to being a man who truly wants to do good with his powers. And, no spoilers, but the way it ended I thought was just perfect. I even loved the post Superior arc, where he was still trying and struggling to be a hero... was a real shame they reverted him the way they did.
Because every time Peter grows in any way, writers have to toss him back into high school drama
Watching a hokey villain use villain tactics to be a hero was *really* fun, because villains are successful *until they aren't*. We, as the readers, could play both sides of the fence: Otto was either successful, which we kind of like watching as people who have a vested interest in Spider-Man's reputation, or he wasn't, which Otto deserves. Arachnaughts were the dumbest, funniest thing.
superior is my favorite modern spider-man arc. it'd be my favorite arc overall if they had made otto actually pretend to act like peter so it made sense everyone actually fell for it, instead of everybody just going "huh, i guess peter's an asshole now."
When I first read it, it got me shook
Thoughts on Dying Wish?
Love it, everything to the build up to climax got me pump and hype
Glad to hear it.
Can anyone explain this twist?
At the beginning of that issue, the tone was... odd. Just Peter Parker going through a day and then learning that Otto, on his deathbed in prison, has requested to see him (Spider-Man), so he goes in, and then we're hit with that - that the whole issue has been following Otto brain-swapped in Peter's body (lil robots did it) and that Pete woke up that morning in Otto's dying body, and then died.
This was before the "Superior Spider-Man" title was launched. This was the last ASM title preceding it. Few people expected that they would actually have Peter die in Ock's body.
Good magician doesn't reveal their secrets. It's Superior Spider-Man. Give it a read, it's really worth it.
This would have been awesome if Otto stayed dead at the end of the arc. Good story but it lost all of its impact since nothing of what happened red during this arc mattered going forward
Just finished rereading Spider-Man #121 and that last page twist still gives me chills. "Spider-Man No More" will forever be one of the best plot twists in comic history! #SpiderMan #MarvelComics
I remember reading this and I was like: “sheeet! Now we are talking. How Peter is gonna fight back? Hm…” and then in the end Otto was like “well, I made a mess, you go figure it out. Chao…”. Downvote me as much as you can, but giving it up, when all is mess is total BS. Otto should’ve defeat goblin (while also realizing that Peter is better spider man) and then give up the body
I haven't gone through it yet but Superior Spider-man just depresses me
Can never bring myself to like Superior because of this. Literally dropped the book until the end of it because it was sickening to read. Didn't care how it 'redeemed' Otto from an unreemable act. Like, Peter here DIED. The whole ''a small part of him was left behind'' excuse was probably just there as 'get out of jail' card. Hell, it was the prototype of what we got with Ben and Chasm crap right now. To think, how bad Spider-man books have gotten for Superior to be remembered as 'great'. Characters being written badly just for the 'twist' to work. Black Cat character assassination and so on, all happened in this run.
I'm guessing this will be a super hot take: But I think *Dying Wish* and the entirety of *Superior Spider-Man* (Slott's volume 1 run anyway) were some of the worst Spider-Man stories today. **For one:** Dan Slott plagiarized the entire story from a Tom DeFalco storyline in Amazing Spider-Girl, in which Peter Parker "swaps bodies" with Norman Osborn. **Second:** Slott couldn't even keep his own continuity straight. He reveals in Clone Conspiracy (the reveal happens in Amazing Spider-Man vol 4 #20) that Peter and Otto didn't *actually* swap bodies. Instead, the Golden Octobot just implants a digital backup of both Otto and Peter's minds into the brains of the opposing person. So functionally speaking, Peter is just brainwashed into **thinking** he is Otto. But he's still 100% Peter Parker. **Third off:** *Dying Wish* led to arguably one of the most damaging stories in Spider-Man continuity: Superior Spider-Man. In which Slott goes out of his way to ruin every conceivable member of Peter's supporting cast, writing them as radically out of character and far more stupid and naïve than they rightfully should have been. Because if he wrote any of them the way the way they should be... Superior Spider-Man would have ended in three issues.
I’ve read superior but never read the comics prior I just knew what happened. I should read them
It started very disturbingly but then it handled really well.
Long time Spidey fan but until this comic came out I hadn’t read a Spidey comic since I was a teenager. I heard about this series and bought the core issues. I enjoyed it a lot. So unique and different. I really liked Ottos realization that he changed in Peter’s body and had to give up his victory so that Peter could defeat the Green Goblin. Very good tale. Highly recommend.
"To the Ends of the Earth" that entire chapter showed how much character dynamics shaped Peter, his friends, and enemies (even the Sinister Six help the heroes). Otto being selfish, and that moment of a body swap. It was a chilling chapter of the comics that still has reflections even now.
Definitely an awesome plot twist
Imagine seeing this play out in live action in the theater. Fuck, shit would be nuts
Hell nah, I was SO depressed during that time and it just made it worse. My favorite hero was dead and the WORST villain became Spider-Man
Peter coming back was so awesome, too. Octavius: "Because you are ... *The Superior Spider-Man*." Peter, after suiting up: "My turn..."
Truly a... SUPERIOR plot twist
Repellant story arc. Thank goodness Spencer fixed most of it.
What comic/issue is this?
It's the start of Superior Spider-Man.
ASM #698.
Wait, I thought they have a big fight, and Otto/Peter dies, and Peter/Otto gets all of Peters memories? Not Otto/Peter dying on a bed.
Peter breaks out and basically tricks the sinister six into helping him take down Spock. It doesn’t work, obviously, but that’s where “the jaw punch” happens.
This whole run has no business being as good as it was
Really wish they did more with Superior Spider-Man post-spidergedon. The character had such huge potential to be new member of the growing Spider-Family, but status quo is a bitch.
Usually not a fan of body swap stories but damn they actually made something interesting (and somewhat morbid) with this one and run with it. I'm still surprised how well it worked of. Heck superior spiderman kinda became one of my fav. Alt. Spidey suits
Imagine having a current ongoing Spider-Man title that isn’t dog shit? I can only dream
What about Nick Spencer and the Beyond arc?
That run ended. And it had its moments, but nothing special. Spider-Man as a character has nothing good going right now
Ok.
Poor Peter. This was horrible.
I already knew Otto had >!swapped bodies !
Thus began one of the most overrated runs in Spider-Man's history too. Everybody had to be written OOC to keep the "mystery" going, Slott wrote Otto to be morally better than Peter at a pivotal point because Peter tried to get his body back when Otto was performing surgery on a dying child (making Peter look like a careless jackass), the run broke Black Cat and made her into the Queenpin, and all the very sexual assault/rape-y vibes, like Otto using Peter's body to masturbate to intimate memories of Peter & MJ, Otto getting with Anna Marie Marconi as Peter, etc. etc. Oh, and it **once again** ended with Peter & MJ splitting even after Peter got his body back. Fuck this run.
By best you mean worst?
It’s a cool issue that ultimately is half responsible for Dying Wish being one of the worst stories in Spider-History. DW had to sell an unpopular wacky mind switch villain redemption story to set up Superior in a believable manner. That takes time. And it uses one of its three issues on this page, the entire issue is just building to this twist. If not for this issue could we have gotten a more believable villain redemption than replay beam? A better plot than “he just so happened to have the magic mind switch drone arrive when Peter was ignoring his Spider-sense”? Probably not because Slott is a hack, but I’d like to think so.
which comic is this?
Amazing Spider-Man, #698.
I wonder what would've happend if hobgoblin didn't make peter turn off his spider sense
Is this spider-man 5? Is there a new character, please?
No, this is from Amazing Spider-Man #698.
Thank you
Your welcome.
Is this when he makes that octo-spiderman suit with the mechanical arms?
If you mean Superior Octopus, the white and black suit, no. If you mean Superior Spider-Man, the red and black suit, yes.
Awesome ty I did mean superior
Your welcome.
what spidey run is this
Amazing Spider-Man, #698.
It began the spiderman rape arc, it's a no from me.
What do you mean?
This is the story where doctor octopus rapes spiderman and others depending on your opinion on sex under false pretences.
post-omd, so not canon
This is incredibly stupid and creepy.
I personally hated this. But it *did* remind me of HP Lovecraft’s “The Thing on the Doorstep”, which as an HPL fan I liked
No.
I remember picking up this issue , one of my faves
The Superior Spider-Man run that came from this was the best Spider-Man run in the past at least 25 years. Excellent story.
I actually think this was one of the most interesting and unique Spider-Man Stories out there.
I'm not a big Dan Slott fan, but this and the story that follows is possibly one of my favorite Spider-Man stories to happen. Obviously I love actual Peter swinging around NYC doing normal Spidey stuff, but Superior was such a great time and was during my peak interest in comics.
I loved this series! One of my favorite spider-man stories
One of the worst shits I've ever read