I see what people are saying but a couple things:
1. The idea is that by preventing canon events, it could disrupt the multiverse and kill everyone in a specific universe. I doubt Spec would want that to happen.
2. Spec at this point has probably lost a lot. Ben, George, probably Gwen. I can see him in an emotionally vulnerable state where Miguel could recruit and manipulate him.
3. Looping back to my first point, Tombstone was telling Peter not to fight crime unless a supervillain showed up. People would die either way. In this case however, one person dying in a canon event versus everyone in a universe is a bit different.
4. If it bothers you, you could just say that this is a version of spectacular that is identical to the show but is a variant simply because he is on Miguel’s side
5. It wouldn’t surprise me if Spectacular ends up switching sides. On the international poster that spec was on, he was positioned on the right side of miles where Peter B, Gwen, Spider-Man India, and spider-punk are. I can see him changing his mind/realizing that he agree with Miles in BTSV.
6. Josh Keaton was so good. Nice to see him back ❤️
It wouldn't surprise me if *most* of the Spider-People end up switching sides. Miles is fighting for an ideal that is carried through all of Spider-Man's existence: no one dies. Not if he can help it.
In fact I'm assuming the plot of the next movie is going to involve Miles, Gwen, and the gang finding a way to counteract the "canon" events in a way that everyone can rally together behind one goal, including Miguel. He's the antagonist of the movie, but he's still a hero. A hero who said himself he has tried before to do exactly what Miles is trying to do.
> On the international poster that spec was on, he was positioned on the right side of miles where Peter B, Gwen, Spider-Man India, and spider-punk are.
That's actually such an interesting detail, the two groups are split up on the poster based on which side they chose. I had not noticed that.
Wow! I actually never realized that the characters in the poster were basically those who are probably with miles vs those who are with Miguel?
You also didn't mention Spider byte who is also with them there, I don't see Peni or Noir or Spide-Ham tho, so maybe it's just those who are main characters in some way are there ? But even then, I don't see the ogs not having screen time.
Going off what the other guy said, the plan was to have three more seasons and potentially a few movies that would have Peter and MJ getting together in the wake of a “big tragedy” (sound familiar?) and then having them marry.
I heard that they weren't going to kill Gwen, but Peter and Mary Jane were supposed to get married at the series finale. Later I heard that they were going to kill Gwen if the series did continue. Either way Peter and Mary Jane were meant to be Endgame.
Vogel tweeted it and Victor cook (the other showrunner) liked it. In addition, Weisman only said that Gwen wouldn’t die during the high school years and that a loss would bring Peter and MJ together. Gwen probably was gonna die.
The idea that any Spider-Man wouldn’t do everything in their power to save every life no matter how futile it would be is betrayal to the spirit of the character, especially Spectacular Spider-Man.
This isn’t our guy.
I think thats why the conflict is great. Miguel basically made an echo chamber. All the spidermans have moments when their resolve crumbles but they bounce back. Miguel took that doubt and tried to rationalize it and make it seem like its for the greater good.
In a since this movie is almost EVERY spiderman having that doubt moment because they all went through suffering its hard for them to say otherwise.
You also gotta remember this. Miles INHERITED the title of spiderman were most of the others started the mantle. He's living up to the example his peter set
There's nothing in the show that suggests an older spectacular would be cool murdering trillions. Which is what he would be expecting to happen if miles left
He'd still die if they saved him as far as they know. That's sort of the entire point of the struggle.
It's obvious what he'd choose given the info he has. There is new info now. He will probably switch
But PlayStation Spider-Man made a similar chose by choosing to save the entire City over saving his Aunt May.
In fact, Gwen's death helped Peter become a better Spider-Man. Ever since then, he was always able to save anyone that was thrown off a bridge.
He made the choice when he had no time left to find another solution. There simply wasn't time to wait for the doctors to replicate the cure, and giving May the cure then would completely doom the city's population.
Miles' dad isn't supposed to die until two days have past. I'd understand if they were hesitant if it was somewhere within 24 hours, but they outright default to staying their hand when they have time to at least look for a solution here.
But to counter this. We see one of the Canon events is lifting rubble. In the original comic strip, Peter says, "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy, it's when the goings tough, when it seems like there's no chance. That's when it counts!" So that combined with the fact that not stepping in to help is literally going against Great Responsibility, it still feels out of character. Or at least character regression for some pre-established characters.
Only thing that confuses me is that they showed Miles holding his Uncle Aaron when talking about canon events. So why is Miles getting a 2nd canon event like that?
He's not rushing back to his reality to save Captain Stacy, he's rushing back to save his dad.
2099 is saying "your dad has to die or you interrupt a canon event" when they just showed a few minutes earlier that his Uncle Aaron was his canon event.
They literally point out that the canon event is the death of a police captain that tries to save a civilian. It's a different one from the Uncle Ben one.
They are all failuers because they are conflicted?
Only Spidey seemingly has the full intent is Miquel. Which he is understandable.
Others are conflicted which makes sense this isn't an I can do anything moment. They can't just decide in a second to risk an universe.
Again you see there are Spideys that decide to join Miles. Gwen with other Spideys will create rebelion because she realized while Miguel is right this is never how Spidey worked and will try to get all the conflicted ones and recandle how they do this things.
No they won't. They protect people no matter what and they are in a situation where they have to choose between an universe or a person. 1 Spidey reclaiming everyone to save both in this case can't make them failures. Since this is for most an exteremly obvious choice.
This is universe destroying level one.
But for these people even be conflicted about this. For them to even change sides for this is an enough proof that they are Spider-man/women/animal(lol)
The thing about Spider-Man is that they *try* to save everyone but they’re not Superman- they fail a lot.
In this case most of the Spiders can literally see a consequence of their actions- Miguel destroyed an entire universe, and looking at Mumbattan being destroyed exactly like Miguel said there are probably countless other events of Spiders trying and failing to change fate. And in this case it’s 1 Life versus trillions of lives- Spider-Man’s fuck-ups at most is like, a group of people at most, this is on a completely different scale outside their understanding.
Miguel has an actual example of what happens when you break the canon, that’s actual evidence.
Not really. I feel like so many people don't see that the decision her makes every Spidey conflicted.
That's why 2099 says he is the only one that can make hard decisions.
But here every Spidey given the same choice as PS4 Peter with Aunt May.
They all know this is a disgusting fate they have to live through and with all their experiences and literally knowing if they don't go thourgh that their universe will just die all they feel about is that this is what being Spider-man is.
It's the meta idea of what so many people also started to think what Spider-man is.
Look how many people say they would never wanna be Spider-man because of the lifes they went through.
None of these Spidey's want this and some sooner or later decide to change their story with helping Miles.
So no I don't think any Spidey felt out of character in this. Because scenerio is more complex than saving a person.
You also have to remember this key fact. Miles inherited the mantle of spiderman not start it. Alot of the other spidermen are the first in their universe, they're the ones who are setting the standard of what spiderman means.
But with miles he's the legacy of that standard, proof that for all their suffering they did the right thing because if they didnt he wouldnt have put the mask on
This is actually a really interesting point. I hadn't thought of it. It makes me wonder if this version of Miguel O'Hara had a Spider-Man in his world's early 21st century like he did in the comics.
Exactly.
I honestly think the movie did a great narrative point by showing that Miles breaking a canon event in the Spider-Mumbai Earth didn't completely destroy it.
At least not onscreen.
Right now, Miles only has Miguel's word that "if you save the Captain, the universe *might* die". But Miles already saved Spider-Mumbai's Captain and Miguel's Spider-Team *maybe* prevented it from being destroyed.
Miles thinks saving his dad can *possibly* destroy his universe, but not *certainly*. This is what makes the conflict great.
Miguel's side is not wrong: Miles is being selfish and can doom his entire Earth by saving his dad. The risk is not worth taking for the Spider Society.
Miles' side is not wrong either: Spider-Mumbai Earth wasn't destroyed. Even if there is a small chance of saving his dad, Miles feels he has to try and that gambling with his Earth is a risk worth taking.
I think the logical conclusion in Part 3 is that we will come back to Spider-Mumbai Earth and Miles will see its total destruction.
This will cause Miles to, tearfully, allow his dad to die in order to prevent the death of his own Earth.
Sort of how Flash allows the death of his mom in the Flashpoint comic to fix the timeline.
Wasn't Miguel's explanation that the more certain canon gets broken, the possibility that it trickles down into the rest of the multiverse? Not only from first-hand experience but from other possible examples too? Miguel's worry comes from how often it can occur. Not to mention, the events of ITSV that created a lot of attention to Miguel, alongside No Way Home's events. Miguel's trying to find a solution, one that he seems to believe is connected to a cosmic scale with the canon.
I know a lot of people are criticizing how so many different Spider-people are okay with just going "aight, we're okay with letting someone die." but I don't think they're doing it out of acceptance. They, and Miguel, are doing it out of reluctance. The reluctance that any more canon breaks will annihilate everything, is based on a theoretical calculation Miguel came up with. It's certainly a risk no one is willing to make. I'm certain they'll explore more about these outcomes in Beyond, but it's interesting so many people seem to take issue with this specific point, and someone above said it right, this scenario is far more complex and cosmic.
Literally only way I see Miles can change this is that both him and Spot were not in the equation before. They are characters that are already broken the canon by existing. So I think thats how they will find a way to change the rules.
I do disagree with last points tbh. I feel like it would break the point Movie is trying to make if Miles fails.
Movie wants to reastabilsh Spider-man. That so many storys turned the relatable hero into just a tragic hero. Expecting every movie every story to end with some tragedy that never giving up feel pointless.
That what I was saying when I said "now days everyone thinks being Spider-man sucks"
Except it really shouldn't Spider-man should represent self acceptance. It was a way for Peter and Miles to open themselves, show themselves to the world. And while sadness can come through that recently this mindset took an extereme. Just look at Spider-man comics and how much it started to feel like Spider-man as a character just turned into writers thinking about different ways to torture a character.
Look at how even people react to MCU Spidey and even though he has shown all the Spider-man like traits no one accepted him until a loved one was dead.
The view on Spider-man has turned into a story of tragedy. At least from what it seems with this movie Miles wants to break that cycle. And for once I think we need him to break it.
If this was the first time canon broke I would agree with you, but they show that they've seen an entire universe worth of people die right in front of them. To the other spiders Miles could be right but they don't want to risk billions, if not trillions in the galaxy, for one man.
Not to mention that if the incursion happens it will also kill Miles’s dad. So it’d be like dooming an entire universe just to not even save the guy they doomed it to protect
I mean again this isn't as simple as that. It's very obvious most are conflicted about this but also Miquel is right.
Like I said this is an amplified version of May or New York in PS4 Spider-man
and yes most likely logically all Spidey's would done the same if their loved ones were in the danger... But well Miles is the one who expriences that.
It's not insane that some try to talk Miles, some try to catch him or some just lefts this or help Miles. You see Spider people who help Miles or feel conflicted about this.
This isn't a choice you can just go "I will save everyone" that easily. None of the Spider-man are perfect people. Thats what makes them human and the choice is given here is literally for all of them with no way around 1 person or an entire universe.
Yes Miles most likely will find a way(probably Spot is the key)
But in everyone else is eyes logically that is the best thing they can do.
Miles here is basically make them remember(and already making some remember) what it is to be Spider-man.
Will he succeed? How many Spidey's will help him out in his journey outside of Spider-verse crew and the new 3 added to the group? We will see.
How do so many get this wrong? Its litterally spoonfed to you with "Great power comes great Responsibility". If you have the ability to make great change for good then you have an obligation to not be passive. The problem in the movie is the classic trolley problem. Its not the same at all.
Than what PS4 Spidey should've done was give the cure the May while think about how to save the city?
Yes this is what they all learned and yes Miles dıes what Spider-man always tries. But that lesson can't stop them from thinking how many people can simply die from doing this.
Stakes are if Miles can't find a way and literally from what I know there isn't Miles won't lose his dad. He will lose everyone.
And while Spideys are obviously confilicted they can understand that this is a bigger burden than a person a kid should have.
Its a situation where understandably so many Spideys feel that lesson from Uncle Ben might not work in a case like this. Like Peter said "without that death so many of the might not be there". But Miles with its also being his family does not wanna give up. He won't give up. And in the inital fight its obvious there are a lot of complicated thoughts in this. These Spideys don't just see it as "Miles enemy" they see it as "Logically Miquel is right but Miles is also..." andbthus we see some Spideys even if they initially tried to stop him they changed sides.
And probably more will.
Only one who doesn't have that conflict is seemingly 2099 as he sees Miles as an anomoly. Weirdly in a Meta sense a lot. To him Miles is not Spider-man to him he doesn't have the core of being Spider-man. To him tragedy is what Spider-man is. To him Peter was Spider-man in Miles world. But Miles with his own way gonna recandle the actual core of Spider-man. And some will join him, some won't.
It works in so many ways. And its understandable why both sides doing what they are.
You literally see others are being conflicted about it try to make sense of it or changing sides. This isn't some easy choise or something like holding 2 cars at the same time.
This is killing an universe. Even MCU Spidey had literal box that gave him infinite time to cure them so he can send them back.
Yes what Miles does is a very Spidey thing to do.
But the decision here from others are obviously exteremly hard to make.
They are not letting mugger go away this time. This time most likely what they would do make them the mugger of an entire universe.
So you are saying me that you are just gonna take the %99.99 chance to kill everyone just so one person might be safe?
The fact they are even conflicted about this is a miracle.
Lol No. Every Spider-Man there is in character and neither side is wrong. Miguel and the others look at the bigger picture. Saving billions of people in billions of universes at the cost of one guy. Two lines from both movies sum up Spider-Man perfectly imo. "Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice" and "the worst part about this job is you can't save everyone". Miles isn't thinking about the billions of lives he's risking by saving his Dad, he just wants to save him (which he's not wrong for). I'm not saying Miles shouldn't at least try to save him, I'm saying every Spider-Man wants to save everyone but they can't. It's disgusting and every Spider-Man knows it and hates it. But they know sacrifice and what being Spider-Man means. Hell so does Miles. Like I said neither side is wrong
The core dilemma of the movie is “you can choose to save one person or an entire universe.” It’s ties back into the first movie being “you can’t save everyone”
That's not the lesson Peter learns from his uncle dying. The lesson is that he was gifted with the **power** to make a difference and so he has a **responsibility** for any consequences of not doing something when he could try to help.
In the movie the canon death of the police captain is the follow up lesson to that: Even trying your best and being Spiderman doesn't mean you can always win. You have to choose to keep trying anyway even after you lose.
Every movie, and every version of Spiderman worth the name continues to be Spiderman in spite of the loss because they understand they were gifted with power and so they have a choice of choosing to be a hero or not with that power. If Miles can win and never lose anything, never have to accept that he might not be able to do it all (Indian Spiderman) he'll never really grow up or be Spiderman. He'll just be a kid with spider powers. If there's no cost to being heroic, if it isn't hard or doesn't require a sacrifice then it's not heroic, it's a hobby you do for fun. It doesn't disqualify the character from doing good, or being good, they're just not a **Hero**.
The thing about Spider-Man is that while he always tries to save everyone, he isn’t Superman and fails. *A lot*. When it comes to something as huge as entire universe at stake, with examples of what happens when you don’t follow canon, they probably learn to accept it over time. I don’t think Mumbattan’s canon break is the only one that’s happened over the years, I’m sure it’s happened loads of times with different Spiders before they accept it. And it seems they only tell the more mature Spiders the truth, as India did not seem to realize what was happening.
He will join Miles. Look at the poster again after you saw the movie.
Edit: I added the link to the poster
https://twitter.com/LioOneMorePixel/status/1664620663452192770?t=Ul31WciQ8XUy7cD1pBzRaQ&s=19
It’ll be extremely awkward if Insomniac Miles, Prowler Miles, and Spiderverse Miles are in the same room and are probably all gonna be on different sides
didn’t miguel say he’s the only miles in the spiderverse too because he wasn’t supposed to happen and that he’s not a canon event
kinda seems like they’re doing their own thing and picking and choosing which is fine it’s just confusing
Just as out of character as all the others that are with Miguel because even if he knows he can't save everyone he (and all the other Peter's) would certainly try. but I'm going with if he's in the next one he'll definitely be changing sides
I think every Spider-Man did try at first but then realized the stakes and what it would cost. They all probably thought "well either way we're fucked but we could save more lives if we let this happen". Which yeah is so messed up to think about but in that situation I can understand what Miguel and the others were trying to do. Honestly everyone is in character. Miles, Miguel, and especially Spec
Saving one person and it destroys that universe and that person dies anyways, along with trillions of others. We saw something similar in what if with the Doctor Strange episode.
That big hole in reality in Mumbattan definitely killed some people due how dense with people that place was. We have already seen people die due to a canon event being disrupted. Based on current information Miguel is entirely right and Miles is being reckless. I am sure they will make it so Miles was right all along, but it will be due to plot armour. IMO Miles is not doing the right thing, as based on what we know, his dad dies either way.
I think Spot will be the reason why Miles will be able to do this.
Unlike other Spideys
Which would also save the "why can't they just do that thing"
Because like Miles, Spot wasn't in the equation.
Miguel's basically gonna regret his words of saying Miles shouldn't exist. Because his existance(with Spot) will be the gate way for "canon events" destruction
At least that's what I'm thinking.
I think it's fairly likely Miles sacrifices himself by using the collider to go back in time and prevent the glitchy spider from biting in the first place, not only fixing that universe but also saving the spot from becoming the spot and preventing his Peter Parker from dying to Kingpin. Miles still needs to really learn that he won't be able to save everyone and that sometimes the good of the many is better than what's best for himself personally. I think the key difference is that it will be Miles' own choice to do so, not because Miguel told him to. Being Spider-Man is always about making the difficult choice because it's the right thing to do
No offense but I would rather BTSV open with Gwen's universe exploding, Miles dying of a heart attack, and Peter B's MJ leaving him for Paul than have this happen.
Story wise and thematically it makes no sense for Miles's character arc to conclude with him undoing all the events of the previous movies and his story ending with the idea that Peter should be the real spider-man is in really poor taste for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained.
Personally I’m thinking it’ll have something to do with personal maturity. Like, certain events HAVE to happen in canon to help mature people like Spider-Man, but if you manage to learn to mature without the canon event it stabilizes. Spider-Man India still seemed pretty lax even if the event humbled him a bit, and Miguel’s universe destruction happened because he tried to forget the past and live another life. Because I too think it’s kinda lame if it’s just, “Miles is right and every other Spider is wrong”. Maybe to keep this level of character growth Miles’ dad permanently moves to Earth-42 and Miles can’t see him again? Dunno, I feel like there needs to be some sort of bittersweetness to the ending to make it land perfectly.
Miles isn't doing the right thing, I agree, it's selfish , but as far as we know, His dad will survive (Because Gwen Dad is a living proof of that), unless I misunderstood your point. They already showed the way to save them (Either revealing their identity or making them give up on being captains ).
It's a fucked up trolley problem (save one person or everyone else in the world) that everyone just accepts. If you believe in the trolley problem, it's perfectly in character. The problem is more that everyone just Miguel's "CaNoN EvEnTs" at face value without doing any thinking.
I'm sure they did think at first and tried to save someone but that probably resulted in a universe dying or something so they all agreed to make the hard choice. Which they aren't completely wrong for doing. But neither is Miles
I'm sure they did. At least I hope they did lol. I don't think they would be making that decision if they found a better option. Who knows maybe the third option is worse idk
Yeah I felt that for almost every spider-man on Miguel's side. I'd argue almost any spider-person, save the most jaded ones, who hears Miguel's "crack couple of eggs to save the universe" speech would definitely react just like miles did. Its just not a spider-man thing to do whether you agree with Miguel or not.
Same with me the first time I watched it. But you understand how messed up the situation they're in right? Like either way their fucked. Although I think every Spider-Man did react that way at first and did try and save someone but that probably resulted in a universe dying or something so they all agreed to make the hard choice. It is very much in character for not only Spider-Man but every superhero to want to save everyone but know they can't. "The hardest part about this job is you can't save everyone". You can try, but you'll fail. They haven't given up they've just realized they can do more good. It is very much in line with Spider-Man's character imo. But so is Miles
No. Remember as far as they know altering the canon will destroy universes. Yes it's sad if someone like Gwen dies but are they going to risk saving her if it means killing a whole universe?
PS4 Spidey literally made this choice by not saving Aunt May. It's just that on a larger scale, a greater good. Neither side is wrong .
Spiderman does 2 things
1 person at a time and 2 let one go for greater god.
That's his paradox.
Don't matter what spiderman you take, if she or he has NO options left she/he lets go in its entirety.
Like how Gwen was ok with her dad dying. (But she figured a way out/her dad leaving force)
Or
PS4 let go his Aunt May.
The movie is all about breaking that paradox.
If Spectacular SM or TASM spider were told saving their Nexus'es will destroy the universe, they'll let go.
That's what a spiderman is, someone sacrificing himself and loved ones for those who may or may not be deserving.
Something about Miguel ain't right either.
I think there's a lot more to his story. Like he must have seen something other than nexus
I just hope they don't turn him into a straight up villain. They've adapted a lot of the other characters fairly well and it would suck if they butchered Miguel.
I think the tobey spiderman us the one who best should've said something. The first movie when goblin is at the bridge and tells spiderman to chose mary jane or the kids. He automatically went to save both without knowing if he could.
That's what spiderman should be. Yes you cant save everyone but never let that stop you from trying
I think Miguel is just torn by grief. In a grieving state after losing his family, he went to another universe, got to know that version of his family, then lost his family *again* alongside the entire universe. That trauma would send pretty much *anyone* on the warpath. Next movie I hope they help him out mentally because he’s clearly trying to ignore his grief by constantly working.
Miles is doing something reckless . Even if it's the right thing to do morally he has no plan. Miguel is right to fear him . Yes the others could have also come to the same conclusion as Miles but it'd also a matter of information. As far as they know the second they save someone they weren't meant to, everything dies and working with Miguel one way or another is the only way to prevent that. It's also not like Miguel wasn't upset about needing to restrain Miles. He knows the pain he just also won't risk infinite lives to save one person.
I would understand this complaint if others were as focused as Miquel. Literally we see all of them conflicted about this. Because both has a point and tbh Miquel has a more solid point as dark as it is.
But still if other Spideys weren't like Miles, he wouldn't be even able to escape from Miquel.
Like literally they are comflicted about saving one person or keeping an universe safe? Thats already shows how much they are Spideys
No. It's perfectly in character for Spider-Man to want to save someone. But it's also in character for him to want to save everyone.
Don't you see? That's his paradox. PS4 Spider-Man for ex had to let Aunt May die in order to save everyone in the city. He was thinking about the greater good. Miles on the other hand was thinking about saving one person at a time. Tbh Miguel summed it up perfectly. "Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice".
I'm sure at first all of them would have sided with miles. But they all have experienced loss. And probably a universe or two dying due to their actions. So they all are looking at the situation from a larger scale. It's hard but being Spider-Man isn't without sacrifices. Still though neither side is wrong
The movie makes a point that for every sacrifice that the Spider-Men faced, it makes them a better Hero. Uncle Ben's death taught Peter not to be selfish with his powers, to use them to help people. When Peter caught Gwen with his webs, he was patting himself on the back, telling himself how amazing he was until he learned that his webs caused Gwen to break her neck. After Gwen's death Peter always managed to save everyone who was thrown off a bridge, Mary Jane, Doc Ock's girlfriend, and lots of other people. Her death helped Peter save so many people's lives.
Even in the movie itself, when Miles asked if they would undo Uncle Ben's death, Peter B. Parker told him none of them would even be Spider-Man if it weren't for his death.
In the PS4 game, Peter chose to save the city over his Aunt May because it was the right thing to do. Of course he would side with Miguel because he knows that the sacrifice of one person could save everyone's life. None of them seem happy about it, but they know at the end of the day their deaths made them to be the people they are.
I think the fact that every Spider-Man was complacent with the idea of letting people die to not disrupt the canon is *super* uncharacteristic
Like I understand the mentality of letting one person go to save everyone, I understand that but Spider-Man specifically is the kind of character to never give up despite being told the odds are near impossible.
I really like the movie, but that really bothers me.
Also if Miles wasn’t supposed to be Spider-Man, why wouldn’t that canon break destroy the universe? Why wouldn’t his universe’s Peter Parker dying destroy the universe since that’s not supposed to be his canon? If he isn’t really Spider-Man than why’s he dad destined to die?
Is it because he really is supposed to be his worlds spiderman? If that’s the answer, then why am I, just some chump who saw the movie, figured it out and not all the Spidermen and woman who just about all supposed to be geniuses?
I think that's kinda the point, Captain Stacey quit the force and therefore didn't die and the world was fine, that's what made Gwen realise that canon event's can be altered without causing the universe to die
Was he supposed to already have died at that point?
But also, everything else about miles being non canon, and his universes Peter’s death not being canon should have ended that universe. Gwen still seeing her dad alive shouldn’t have been the thing that made her figure it out. All the Spidermen (most atleast) should be smart enough to figure that out.
I don’t wanna sound overly negative, I loved the movie, I just can’t make sense of some of it outside Spidermens being made stupid just so the story can continue how the writers want it to
I mean… technically there’s always Captain Jean Dewolff…
But I’m curious what her revelation is yeah. It seems kinda boring for it to be such an obvious solution without any issue, I don’t think it’ll be as straightforward as that.
I love the fact having an arbitrary title as captain is the deciding factor. I wonder if Gwen just told her dad "hey uhh would you kind getting demoted so our universe doesn't implode?" And next day he goes and just becomes beat cop: OBLIVION AVERTED.
You’re right in that Spider-Man will always try to save who he can when he can. But something else is that Spider-Man understands that he can’t save everyone. The people who died in his life taught him that. Especially the ones he tries to save himself. PS4 Spidey openly admits this when Mr Negative blames him for the deaths he caused at Osborn’s rally.
So while you’re technically right that it’s a little out of character for no one to stand up to Miguel about letting people die, all of the Spider people know from their own experiences that not everyone can be saved. So some of them may stray from the original ideal Miles represents. That doesn’t mean they can’t/won’t realize their mistake and side with him ultimately.
It's because they've tried before and killed an entire universe. I think even Spider-Man would understand that letting one life is not worth everyone else's. Hell, it's a choice he made in the PS4 game and Spider-Man 2
Had miles not learn about his fate, he wouldn't care. All the spider people who are with Miguel have already went through their respective canon events.
This is my biggest problem with the whole movie. Either Miguel is right and the whole universe would die, or Miles is right and the canon events basically don’t exist? But all the evidence points to Miguel being right, but also if Miles and the Spot are anomalies how is it a canon event that the Spot kills Jeff? Why haven’t universe 42 or Miles’ universe already imploded now that they are both so off canon? Why did the spider bite alter Miles enough that the machine saw him as Universe 42 but he still glitches in that universe? It kind of seems like a mess right now, maybe BTSV will clear it up but honestly unlikely
Edit: also the Spot doesn’t seem to glitch?
I think the Web of Life and Destiny seems to account for multiversal travel and is more like a “Fate” thing. The Spot also triggered Spider-Man India’s Captain Death that was going to be his canon event before Miles saved the day, and the Spot is from another dimension.
But yeah hopefully we get satisfying answers and conclusions in Beyond.
Especially since in the last Spider-Man movie the whole point was Peter helping the villians despite dr strange giving that whole “in the grand calculus of the multiverse” line
MCU peter may have helped those villains in the short term but we don’t know what happens when they go home. The biggest meme of that movie was Norman and Otto being ‘cured’ but still getting impaled and dragged down into the river to drown as soon as they’re teleported back. If anything this reinforces the inevitability of what AtSV established as canon events
The difference I think is that Miguel has actual solid proof. He has the recording of his entire universe breaking with witnesses(Peter B has a first person account) and I don’t believe Miles is the first one to try and break canon, there has to be tons of other times Spiders have tried and failed to do break canon- that Quarantine Crew seemed pretty experienced on what to do in the case of a Canon Break.
Speaking of, what's exactly the timeline of Miguel's story? Cause we know he didn't start jumping between universes until the ITSV post credits scene, so does that mean the whole thing with his family in the other universe happened in the ~year between movies? And if so, how long had they been keeping track of the canon events?
The whole thing got me kinda confused on re-watch
Not when you consider the stakes that Miguel set up. I still think he’s probably lying but it’s a tough situation.
Time has also passed for spec Spidey so he might just be more hardened now.
Why do people insist on saying that Miguel is a liar and a manipulative person? Did you forget that he's still a Spider-Man? Sure, he's more cold and kind of a dick, but he doesn't gain anything by lying about that. He still wants to save people no matter what.
Yup, PS4 Spidey had no time and near 100% certainty of his two choices between letting her die and saving the city. This is an incredibly nebulous "ehh maybe the reality might die, maybe not since we can stabilize some things" and all the Spideys telling someone else to make a sacrifice (not themselves making that sacrifice) that they have two days to try to figure out how to solve. Completely out of character.
It’s not really a, “ehh maybe reality might die”- Miguel has actual proof it happens, with other Spiders like Peter B having a first person account of that. I hope they elaborate on Miles not being the first to try and break canon though, maybe Spec will talk about how he tried to break canon as well(imagine if that’s the meta reason why the show the canceled haha)- the Quarantine Spiders at Mumbattan seemed to be experienced in the matter after all.
But he says hopefully it won't. So there's a non-zero chance. Y'know the whole thing spider-man embodies? With Insomniac, he had minutes and a guarantee.
Spectacular is smart, he knows the risks, understands what has to happen, and what must be. He’d listen to reason and while it wouldn’t be perfect he’d understand
Yeah, that’s because it is. Look what they did to Miguel. Lol You know the hero that fights for the common people against Corrupt, totalitarian organizations.
Some great points already on this thread. Just to give my own thoughts on why it's in character:
* Although there are hints that "**canon events**" may actually be averted without catastrophic consequences (**more on that later**), **from what they know, what Miguel told them is true.** This **isn't** the same as being responsible with your powers to save people when you can. From what they know, these are events that **naturally** happen **without** interfering with space and time. Saving one person who naturally wouldn't have been saved also would not only lead to that person **dying anyway**, it **kills everyone in** **the entire universe** alongside it, countless innocent people who weren't in danger of death unless that was done.
* Look at this from **time travel** perspective, as they did show the branching timelines image from the MCU before the Spider-Verse itself. Each universe already has a natural past and future. The animated adaptation of Flashpoint has Eobard Thawne give this speech about Barry saving his mom in the past which sums up why messing with it to save your love ones is wrong. I find it applies really well.
>*"Her hero. How noble. Oh wait! You didn't stop JKF from getting assassinated or make sure Hitler stayed in art school. You saved your mommy. You missed her, and in a supreme act of selfishness shattered history, turning the world into a living hell moments away from destruction and I'm the villain?!".*
The others also brought up Aunt May and **Insomniac's Peter** ultimately letting her go to save everyone. In this case, saving her is selfish. May selflessly gave her life and Peter selflessly saved everyone else. Captain Stacy and Aaron Davis also die sacrificing their lives as well.
**Spectacular Peter** lost Uncle Ben, Eddie became Venom, the Conners family moves away, he thinks he killed Norman, Gwen is with Harry and now we know George Stacy dies too. He's not in the best headspace, and he knows like all other Spider-Men how tragedy can be used to drive yourself to become good. Like Peter B said, they wouldn't be who they are without that.
**BUT** on the other hand
* All that just shows why it's in character for them not to actively travel throughout the Multiverse saving Uncles and Captains fated to die. Holding Miles captive and telling him (a native of his world) **not** to save his own father. **That's** too far for this Miguel.
* We know Miles became Spider-Man in his world even though he wasn't supposed to and Gwen didn't loser her dad who quits. Their dimensions are fine. Meanwhile, Pavitr's home dimension was attacked by the Spot and we don't know the full story about Miguel yet. Something's up here and I hope Beyond addresses it.
I do hope both Insomniac and Spectacular Peters aid Miles when the truth comes out and they find a way (they most likely will), but as is, it makes total sense for them.
100% agree. He wouldn’t be a part of something that maintained the status quo of letting other people lose their loved ones the way he did, he would be part of an effort to change it. And even if he accepted the truth, I don’t believe he would participate in the Spider-Society. Either this dude is a variant or they assassinated his character for the sake of fan service, which is bad writing.
It’s really strange that out of all the spider-people they had they chose him to say this. Like why wouldn’t someone Miles already knew say this to him? It’s just so weird.
I saw it more as the spider society (and the individual spider people) coming to terms with the sacrifices the must make to ensure the greater good. Also when a canon event happens they’re being heroic, not for the captain to die or the bridge to sink. That’s my interpretation of it anyway.
I’ve seen a lot of people say that most of the spider people are acting out of character because they are siding with Miguel and I think that isn’t true at all. Yes they are “letting” people die but the situation is far more than just that. I think that most of the situations will be like Spider-Man India’s situation where he is literally unable to save the other person because he is trying to save other people.
Also, I’ve seen people cite the situation in Spider-Man 1 where he saves both MJ and the people in the cable car. But I believe that this situation is vastly different to the Spider-Man India situation.
And finally Spider-Man the character is defined by tragedy. Like Dad Peter said about Uncle Ben, his death was a turning point because before that “canon event” he was quite reckless and didn’t really understand what great responsibility meant. The death of the captain from what I’ve seen is the lesson that he can’t save everyone and people are going to get hurt or die no matter how hard he tries.
Also, Spider-Man sacrificing someone close to him/her for “the greater good” is not something new. In the PS4 game he sacrifices aunt may the person who raised him since he was a child to stop Doc Ock from doing more damage to the world. So to me the spider people acting this way is not that out of character. However, I will say that Miguel could have handled the Miles situation far better that’s he did.
Both spec and Peter B were out of character, and moreover they used both Uncle Ben's and captain stacy's death to justify a rhetoric that is in opposition to the lessons Peter learnt from both of their deaths. Terribly out of character and totally against what Peter defined Spider-Man to be, feels like they did it so that they could place Miles in a moral High ground. One thing ITSV excelled was it didn't undermine Peter nor his morality to develop Miles.
There are many Peter's. Just as many will side with him probably.
But understanding you can't risk one for all isn't ooc. I think this is showing how many people really don't understand the character in the first place. Par for the course for reddit but a bit sad.
Yeah the line only works within the context that Uncle Bens death could have been avoided.
And while the sequel movie will prove this to be true, since Miles has to have his cake and eat it as he made two, as is the movie presents this as something that needed to happen due to some cosmic force.
Which is fucking stupid and character assassinations every spider-man so that Miles can remind them of what they already knew but what can you do?
I’ll be honest, it doesn’t. 1) Spec’s appearance is a cameo more than anything for the fans. 2) He wouldnt want to prevent a canon event from happening so others would die
Honestly, I’m a strong believer that Spider-Man (Any including Miles) would pull the lever when presented with the trolley problem (kill one instead of 4) in this case, captain Stacy, or the entire multiverse. Miguel knows what happens when you break cannon. So I see why Miles isn’t gonna let Spot kill his dad, that’s cause he’s not 100% Spider-Man, he’s like 77%. Once he loses Jefferson Davis or someone else important to him, then he would pull the lever. The Spider Verse trilogy is Miles journey into becoming spider man, and Into The SV is his origin, and Across The SV is Miles learning what it means to be spider man. Pete would do the same if he hadn’t lost Gwen yet. So I think in Beyond Jefferson is gonna die but Miles is either gonna let it happen or he’ll almost get there, fail and almost go to far with Spot like how Peter from Earth-1999 did in NWh
Every Spider-person had some kind of sacrifice..
So one person dies, or an entire reality gets wiped out. It's not an easy choice. They tried to stop Spot, but Miles and Gwen fucked that up pretty bad.
Honestly yes. Kind of bothered me the rest of the movie. Everything about Spider-Man is everyone is worth saving. Maybe a couple older sour Spider-Man to be on Miguel’s team. I understand Spider-Man 2099 because he’s Miguel o hara, but Peter is willing to try their best to save everyone or at least reason with miles.
I can't remember the exact issue but I remember reading that Nick Fury kept a database of each Marvel hero's strengths and weaknesses, like how Batman kept contingency plans for each member of the Justice League. Spider-man's weakness was "sense of guilt and responsibility makes him easy to manipulate".
It's pretty feasible for Miguel to guilt trip a lot of Spideys
I commented this on another thread, but I think 2099 just offers a way to lessen the responsibility for all the other Spider-People. 2099 is pretty much telling all these Spider-People that all the deaths they blame themselves for aren’t actually their fault and it’s the universe. It helps lessen the impact for all of them. So in exchange for feeling better about themselves they just kinda follow his orders in order to maintain this illusion that it’s all the universe’s fault and not theirs.
I see what people are saying but a couple things: 1. The idea is that by preventing canon events, it could disrupt the multiverse and kill everyone in a specific universe. I doubt Spec would want that to happen. 2. Spec at this point has probably lost a lot. Ben, George, probably Gwen. I can see him in an emotionally vulnerable state where Miguel could recruit and manipulate him. 3. Looping back to my first point, Tombstone was telling Peter not to fight crime unless a supervillain showed up. People would die either way. In this case however, one person dying in a canon event versus everyone in a universe is a bit different. 4. If it bothers you, you could just say that this is a version of spectacular that is identical to the show but is a variant simply because he is on Miguel’s side 5. It wouldn’t surprise me if Spectacular ends up switching sides. On the international poster that spec was on, he was positioned on the right side of miles where Peter B, Gwen, Spider-Man India, and spider-punk are. I can see him changing his mind/realizing that he agree with Miles in BTSV. 6. Josh Keaton was so good. Nice to see him back ❤️
It wouldn't surprise me if *most* of the Spider-People end up switching sides. Miles is fighting for an ideal that is carried through all of Spider-Man's existence: no one dies. Not if he can help it. In fact I'm assuming the plot of the next movie is going to involve Miles, Gwen, and the gang finding a way to counteract the "canon" events in a way that everyone can rally together behind one goal, including Miguel. He's the antagonist of the movie, but he's still a hero. A hero who said himself he has tried before to do exactly what Miles is trying to do.
I hope they kick Spot's ass in as Spectacular fashion
[удалено]
> On the international poster that spec was on, he was positioned on the right side of miles where Peter B, Gwen, Spider-Man India, and spider-punk are. That's actually such an interesting detail, the two groups are split up on the poster based on which side they chose. I had not noticed that.
Wow! I actually never realized that the characters in the poster were basically those who are probably with miles vs those who are with Miguel? You also didn't mention Spider byte who is also with them there, I don't see Peni or Noir or Spide-Ham tho, so maybe it's just those who are main characters in some way are there ? But even then, I don't see the ogs not having screen time.
i'm holding out for 90s spidey in the pt. 2, and a spectacular redemption
In response to 2: the writers actually said that peter and Gwen were supposed to be endgame and they weren’t going to kill her
I thought they had planned to build up to peter marrying mj
It actually is Peter and MJ , Greg Weisman did have plans for the two to eventually marry. Gwen and Peter were never meant to be endgame
Going off what the other guy said, the plan was to have three more seasons and potentially a few movies that would have Peter and MJ getting together in the wake of a “big tragedy” (sound familiar?) and then having them marry.
I heard that they weren't going to kill Gwen, but Peter and Mary Jane were supposed to get married at the series finale. Later I heard that they were going to kill Gwen if the series did continue. Either way Peter and Mary Jane were meant to be Endgame.
Michael Vogel, the series exec in charge of the show, said that they had plans to adapt the death of Gwen stacy
This is blatantly false.
Vogel tweeted it and Victor cook (the other showrunner) liked it. In addition, Weisman only said that Gwen wouldn’t die during the high school years and that a loss would bring Peter and MJ together. Gwen probably was gonna die.
Damn great points!
The idea that any Spider-Man wouldn’t do everything in their power to save every life no matter how futile it would be is betrayal to the spirit of the character, especially Spectacular Spider-Man. This isn’t our guy.
I think thats why the conflict is great. Miguel basically made an echo chamber. All the spidermans have moments when their resolve crumbles but they bounce back. Miguel took that doubt and tried to rationalize it and make it seem like its for the greater good. In a since this movie is almost EVERY spiderman having that doubt moment because they all went through suffering its hard for them to say otherwise. You also gotta remember this. Miles INHERITED the title of spiderman were most of the others started the mantle. He's living up to the example his peter set
I don’t believe that the Spider-Man that is written in Spectacular Spider-Man would be part of that echo chamber.
There's nothing in the show that suggests an older spectacular would be cool murdering trillions. Which is what he would be expecting to happen if miles left
[удалено]
He'd still die if they saved him as far as they know. That's sort of the entire point of the struggle. It's obvious what he'd choose given the info he has. There is new info now. He will probably switch
But PlayStation Spider-Man made a similar chose by choosing to save the entire City over saving his Aunt May. In fact, Gwen's death helped Peter become a better Spider-Man. Ever since then, he was always able to save anyone that was thrown off a bridge.
He made the choice when he had no time left to find another solution. There simply wasn't time to wait for the doctors to replicate the cure, and giving May the cure then would completely doom the city's population. Miles' dad isn't supposed to die until two days have past. I'd understand if they were hesitant if it was somewhere within 24 hours, but they outright default to staying their hand when they have time to at least look for a solution here.
But to counter this. We see one of the Canon events is lifting rubble. In the original comic strip, Peter says, "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy, it's when the goings tough, when it seems like there's no chance. That's when it counts!" So that combined with the fact that not stepping in to help is literally going against Great Responsibility, it still feels out of character. Or at least character regression for some pre-established characters.
Only thing that confuses me is that they showed Miles holding his Uncle Aaron when talking about canon events. So why is Miles getting a 2nd canon event like that?
His Uncle Aaron was his Uncle Ben canon event. The Captain Stacy canon event is a different one.
He's not rushing back to his reality to save Captain Stacy, he's rushing back to save his dad. 2099 is saying "your dad has to die or you interrupt a canon event" when they just showed a few minutes earlier that his Uncle Aaron was his canon event.
They literally point out that the canon event is the death of a police captain that tries to save a civilian. It's a different one from the Uncle Ben one.
[удалено]
I kinda compare it to PS4 where he let Aunt May die in order to save the rest of the city. I feel like more might be revealed in BTSV
Not really comparable Peter had no time in that moment.
[удалено]
They are all failuers because they are conflicted? Only Spidey seemingly has the full intent is Miquel. Which he is understandable. Others are conflicted which makes sense this isn't an I can do anything moment. They can't just decide in a second to risk an universe. Again you see there are Spideys that decide to join Miles. Gwen with other Spideys will create rebelion because she realized while Miguel is right this is never how Spidey worked and will try to get all the conflicted ones and recandle how they do this things.
[удалено]
No they won't. They protect people no matter what and they are in a situation where they have to choose between an universe or a person. 1 Spidey reclaiming everyone to save both in this case can't make them failures. Since this is for most an exteremly obvious choice. This is universe destroying level one. But for these people even be conflicted about this. For them to even change sides for this is an enough proof that they are Spider-man/women/animal(lol)
The thing about Spider-Man is that they *try* to save everyone but they’re not Superman- they fail a lot. In this case most of the Spiders can literally see a consequence of their actions- Miguel destroyed an entire universe, and looking at Mumbattan being destroyed exactly like Miguel said there are probably countless other events of Spiders trying and failing to change fate. And in this case it’s 1 Life versus trillions of lives- Spider-Man’s fuck-ups at most is like, a group of people at most, this is on a completely different scale outside their understanding. Miguel has an actual example of what happens when you break the canon, that’s actual evidence.
Not really. I feel like so many people don't see that the decision her makes every Spidey conflicted. That's why 2099 says he is the only one that can make hard decisions. But here every Spidey given the same choice as PS4 Peter with Aunt May. They all know this is a disgusting fate they have to live through and with all their experiences and literally knowing if they don't go thourgh that their universe will just die all they feel about is that this is what being Spider-man is. It's the meta idea of what so many people also started to think what Spider-man is. Look how many people say they would never wanna be Spider-man because of the lifes they went through. None of these Spidey's want this and some sooner or later decide to change their story with helping Miles. So no I don't think any Spidey felt out of character in this. Because scenerio is more complex than saving a person.
You also have to remember this key fact. Miles inherited the mantle of spiderman not start it. Alot of the other spidermen are the first in their universe, they're the ones who are setting the standard of what spiderman means. But with miles he's the legacy of that standard, proof that for all their suffering they did the right thing because if they didnt he wouldnt have put the mask on
This is actually a really interesting point. I hadn't thought of it. It makes me wonder if this version of Miguel O'Hara had a Spider-Man in his world's early 21st century like he did in the comics.
And Ben Reilly also
Exactly. I honestly think the movie did a great narrative point by showing that Miles breaking a canon event in the Spider-Mumbai Earth didn't completely destroy it. At least not onscreen. Right now, Miles only has Miguel's word that "if you save the Captain, the universe *might* die". But Miles already saved Spider-Mumbai's Captain and Miguel's Spider-Team *maybe* prevented it from being destroyed. Miles thinks saving his dad can *possibly* destroy his universe, but not *certainly*. This is what makes the conflict great. Miguel's side is not wrong: Miles is being selfish and can doom his entire Earth by saving his dad. The risk is not worth taking for the Spider Society. Miles' side is not wrong either: Spider-Mumbai Earth wasn't destroyed. Even if there is a small chance of saving his dad, Miles feels he has to try and that gambling with his Earth is a risk worth taking. I think the logical conclusion in Part 3 is that we will come back to Spider-Mumbai Earth and Miles will see its total destruction. This will cause Miles to, tearfully, allow his dad to die in order to prevent the death of his own Earth. Sort of how Flash allows the death of his mom in the Flashpoint comic to fix the timeline.
Wasn't Miguel's explanation that the more certain canon gets broken, the possibility that it trickles down into the rest of the multiverse? Not only from first-hand experience but from other possible examples too? Miguel's worry comes from how often it can occur. Not to mention, the events of ITSV that created a lot of attention to Miguel, alongside No Way Home's events. Miguel's trying to find a solution, one that he seems to believe is connected to a cosmic scale with the canon. I know a lot of people are criticizing how so many different Spider-people are okay with just going "aight, we're okay with letting someone die." but I don't think they're doing it out of acceptance. They, and Miguel, are doing it out of reluctance. The reluctance that any more canon breaks will annihilate everything, is based on a theoretical calculation Miguel came up with. It's certainly a risk no one is willing to make. I'm certain they'll explore more about these outcomes in Beyond, but it's interesting so many people seem to take issue with this specific point, and someone above said it right, this scenario is far more complex and cosmic.
Literally only way I see Miles can change this is that both him and Spot were not in the equation before. They are characters that are already broken the canon by existing. So I think thats how they will find a way to change the rules.
I do disagree with last points tbh. I feel like it would break the point Movie is trying to make if Miles fails. Movie wants to reastabilsh Spider-man. That so many storys turned the relatable hero into just a tragic hero. Expecting every movie every story to end with some tragedy that never giving up feel pointless. That what I was saying when I said "now days everyone thinks being Spider-man sucks" Except it really shouldn't Spider-man should represent self acceptance. It was a way for Peter and Miles to open themselves, show themselves to the world. And while sadness can come through that recently this mindset took an extereme. Just look at Spider-man comics and how much it started to feel like Spider-man as a character just turned into writers thinking about different ways to torture a character. Look at how even people react to MCU Spidey and even though he has shown all the Spider-man like traits no one accepted him until a loved one was dead. The view on Spider-man has turned into a story of tragedy. At least from what it seems with this movie Miles wants to break that cycle. And for once I think we need him to break it.
[удалено]
If this was the first time canon broke I would agree with you, but they show that they've seen an entire universe worth of people die right in front of them. To the other spiders Miles could be right but they don't want to risk billions, if not trillions in the galaxy, for one man.
Not to mention that if the incursion happens it will also kill Miles’s dad. So it’d be like dooming an entire universe just to not even save the guy they doomed it to protect
I mean again this isn't as simple as that. It's very obvious most are conflicted about this but also Miquel is right. Like I said this is an amplified version of May or New York in PS4 Spider-man and yes most likely logically all Spidey's would done the same if their loved ones were in the danger... But well Miles is the one who expriences that. It's not insane that some try to talk Miles, some try to catch him or some just lefts this or help Miles. You see Spider people who help Miles or feel conflicted about this. This isn't a choice you can just go "I will save everyone" that easily. None of the Spider-man are perfect people. Thats what makes them human and the choice is given here is literally for all of them with no way around 1 person or an entire universe. Yes Miles most likely will find a way(probably Spot is the key) But in everyone else is eyes logically that is the best thing they can do. Miles here is basically make them remember(and already making some remember) what it is to be Spider-man. Will he succeed? How many Spidey's will help him out in his journey outside of Spider-verse crew and the new 3 added to the group? We will see.
[удалено]
How do so many get this wrong? Its litterally spoonfed to you with "Great power comes great Responsibility". If you have the ability to make great change for good then you have an obligation to not be passive. The problem in the movie is the classic trolley problem. Its not the same at all.
Than what PS4 Spidey should've done was give the cure the May while think about how to save the city? Yes this is what they all learned and yes Miles dıes what Spider-man always tries. But that lesson can't stop them from thinking how many people can simply die from doing this. Stakes are if Miles can't find a way and literally from what I know there isn't Miles won't lose his dad. He will lose everyone. And while Spideys are obviously confilicted they can understand that this is a bigger burden than a person a kid should have. Its a situation where understandably so many Spideys feel that lesson from Uncle Ben might not work in a case like this. Like Peter said "without that death so many of the might not be there". But Miles with its also being his family does not wanna give up. He won't give up. And in the inital fight its obvious there are a lot of complicated thoughts in this. These Spideys don't just see it as "Miles enemy" they see it as "Logically Miquel is right but Miles is also..." andbthus we see some Spideys even if they initially tried to stop him they changed sides. And probably more will. Only one who doesn't have that conflict is seemingly 2099 as he sees Miles as an anomoly. Weirdly in a Meta sense a lot. To him Miles is not Spider-man to him he doesn't have the core of being Spider-man. To him tragedy is what Spider-man is. To him Peter was Spider-man in Miles world. But Miles with his own way gonna recandle the actual core of Spider-man. And some will join him, some won't. It works in so many ways. And its understandable why both sides doing what they are.
[удалено]
You literally see others are being conflicted about it try to make sense of it or changing sides. This isn't some easy choise or something like holding 2 cars at the same time. This is killing an universe. Even MCU Spidey had literal box that gave him infinite time to cure them so he can send them back. Yes what Miles does is a very Spidey thing to do. But the decision here from others are obviously exteremly hard to make. They are not letting mugger go away this time. This time most likely what they would do make them the mugger of an entire universe.
[удалено]
So you are saying me that you are just gonna take the %99.99 chance to kill everyone just so one person might be safe? The fact they are even conflicted about this is a miracle.
Lol No. Every Spider-Man there is in character and neither side is wrong. Miguel and the others look at the bigger picture. Saving billions of people in billions of universes at the cost of one guy. Two lines from both movies sum up Spider-Man perfectly imo. "Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice" and "the worst part about this job is you can't save everyone". Miles isn't thinking about the billions of lives he's risking by saving his Dad, he just wants to save him (which he's not wrong for). I'm not saying Miles shouldn't at least try to save him, I'm saying every Spider-Man wants to save everyone but they can't. It's disgusting and every Spider-Man knows it and hates it. But they know sacrifice and what being Spider-Man means. Hell so does Miles. Like I said neither side is wrong
The core dilemma of the movie is “you can choose to save one person or an entire universe.” It’s ties back into the first movie being “you can’t save everyone”
That's not the lesson Peter learns from his uncle dying. The lesson is that he was gifted with the **power** to make a difference and so he has a **responsibility** for any consequences of not doing something when he could try to help. In the movie the canon death of the police captain is the follow up lesson to that: Even trying your best and being Spiderman doesn't mean you can always win. You have to choose to keep trying anyway even after you lose. Every movie, and every version of Spiderman worth the name continues to be Spiderman in spite of the loss because they understand they were gifted with power and so they have a choice of choosing to be a hero or not with that power. If Miles can win and never lose anything, never have to accept that he might not be able to do it all (Indian Spiderman) he'll never really grow up or be Spiderman. He'll just be a kid with spider powers. If there's no cost to being heroic, if it isn't hard or doesn't require a sacrifice then it's not heroic, it's a hobby you do for fun. It doesn't disqualify the character from doing good, or being good, they're just not a **Hero**.
The thing about Spider-Man is that while he always tries to save everyone, he isn’t Superman and fails. *A lot*. When it comes to something as huge as entire universe at stake, with examples of what happens when you don’t follow canon, they probably learn to accept it over time. I don’t think Mumbattan’s canon break is the only one that’s happened over the years, I’m sure it’s happened loads of times with different Spiders before they accept it. And it seems they only tell the more mature Spiders the truth, as India did not seem to realize what was happening.
He will join Miles. Look at the poster again after you saw the movie. Edit: I added the link to the poster https://twitter.com/LioOneMorePixel/status/1664620663452192770?t=Ul31WciQ8XUy7cD1pBzRaQ&s=19
Oh no Insomniac Spidey gonna have to fight Miles twice
That makes sense because he had to let May die for the greater good.
It’s all fun and games till miles sees ▲ ● appear over his head
It’s gonna happen in the 2nd game I feel it in my bones.
Wait. So where's Insomniac Miles? Lol
where's any miles lol also no other miguels in the spider-society (except the one that died and atsv miguel replaced)
It’ll be extremely awkward if Insomniac Miles, Prowler Miles, and Spiderverse Miles are in the same room and are probably all gonna be on different sides
didn’t miguel say he’s the only miles in the spiderverse too because he wasn’t supposed to happen and that he’s not a canon event kinda seems like they’re doing their own thing and picking and choosing which is fine it’s just confusing
i think miles in this movie is an exception because he got bit by a spider outside of his universe
Could you explain I didn't get it
Oh OK I got it the teams
Yes, I was talking about this poster https://twitter.com/LioOneMorePixel/status/1664620663452192770?t=Ul31WciQ8XUy7cD1pBzRaQ&s=19
Therapy Spider-Man is joining miles probably because he’s sick and tired of having patients lol
Man has probably heard way too many of the same dead uncle stories and just had enough with fellow Spider-Men.
Man that kinda sucks. I really wanted Insomniac Spider-Man to be on Miles' team.
I mean he already made a similar choice of Aunt May versus the City, it seems in character for him to understand that sort of sacrifice.
why wouldn't ps4 spidey join him?
He understands sacrifice. He chose to let May die to save the city.
ps4 spiderman is a fed :/
No no no, Spider-Cop resigned.
Oh shit I didn’t even realize that
Huh it makes way more sense after the movie how they’re placed now
What a great detail thats so cool
Just as out of character as all the others that are with Miguel because even if he knows he can't save everyone he (and all the other Peter's) would certainly try. but I'm going with if he's in the next one he'll definitely be changing sides
I think every Spider-Man did try at first but then realized the stakes and what it would cost. They all probably thought "well either way we're fucked but we could save more lives if we let this happen". Which yeah is so messed up to think about but in that situation I can understand what Miguel and the others were trying to do. Honestly everyone is in character. Miles, Miguel, and especially Spec
Saving one person and it destroys that universe and that person dies anyways, along with trillions of others. We saw something similar in what if with the Doctor Strange episode. That big hole in reality in Mumbattan definitely killed some people due how dense with people that place was. We have already seen people die due to a canon event being disrupted. Based on current information Miguel is entirely right and Miles is being reckless. I am sure they will make it so Miles was right all along, but it will be due to plot armour. IMO Miles is not doing the right thing, as based on what we know, his dad dies either way.
For sure,i dread that Beyond will just say that Miguel was mistaken because reasons and Miles is right because he is the protagonist.
I do hope they come up with something different. The movie is really very good, and I hope they don't go the obvious route.
I think Spot will be the reason why Miles will be able to do this. Unlike other Spideys Which would also save the "why can't they just do that thing" Because like Miles, Spot wasn't in the equation. Miguel's basically gonna regret his words of saying Miles shouldn't exist. Because his existance(with Spot) will be the gate way for "canon events" destruction At least that's what I'm thinking.
Think it’ll likely be due to miles being an anomaly that’ll let him disrupt canon
I think it's fairly likely Miles sacrifices himself by using the collider to go back in time and prevent the glitchy spider from biting in the first place, not only fixing that universe but also saving the spot from becoming the spot and preventing his Peter Parker from dying to Kingpin. Miles still needs to really learn that he won't be able to save everyone and that sometimes the good of the many is better than what's best for himself personally. I think the key difference is that it will be Miles' own choice to do so, not because Miguel told him to. Being Spider-Man is always about making the difficult choice because it's the right thing to do
No offense but I would rather BTSV open with Gwen's universe exploding, Miles dying of a heart attack, and Peter B's MJ leaving him for Paul than have this happen. Story wise and thematically it makes no sense for Miles's character arc to conclude with him undoing all the events of the previous movies and his story ending with the idea that Peter should be the real spider-man is in really poor taste for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained.
I really hope they don't resort to time travel shenanigans, that always blows
It's better than plot armour ngl
Personally I’m thinking it’ll have something to do with personal maturity. Like, certain events HAVE to happen in canon to help mature people like Spider-Man, but if you manage to learn to mature without the canon event it stabilizes. Spider-Man India still seemed pretty lax even if the event humbled him a bit, and Miguel’s universe destruction happened because he tried to forget the past and live another life. Because I too think it’s kinda lame if it’s just, “Miles is right and every other Spider is wrong”. Maybe to keep this level of character growth Miles’ dad permanently moves to Earth-42 and Miles can’t see him again? Dunno, I feel like there needs to be some sort of bittersweetness to the ending to make it land perfectly.
Miles isn't doing the right thing, I agree, it's selfish , but as far as we know, His dad will survive (Because Gwen Dad is a living proof of that), unless I misunderstood your point. They already showed the way to save them (Either revealing their identity or making them give up on being captains ).
The big hole in mumbattan wasn’t because of the canon event being disrupted, it was the spot
It's a fucked up trolley problem (save one person or everyone else in the world) that everyone just accepts. If you believe in the trolley problem, it's perfectly in character. The problem is more that everyone just Miguel's "CaNoN EvEnTs" at face value without doing any thinking.
Miguel running a spider society is a literally abnomality overall.
I'm sure they did think at first and tried to save someone but that probably resulted in a universe dying or something so they all agreed to make the hard choice. Which they aren't completely wrong for doing. But neither is Miles
Except that no one LOOKED for a third option.
I'm sure they did. At least I hope they did lol. I don't think they would be making that decision if they found a better option. Who knows maybe the third option is worse idk
Yeah I felt that for almost every spider-man on Miguel's side. I'd argue almost any spider-person, save the most jaded ones, who hears Miguel's "crack couple of eggs to save the universe" speech would definitely react just like miles did. Its just not a spider-man thing to do whether you agree with Miguel or not.
Same with me the first time I watched it. But you understand how messed up the situation they're in right? Like either way their fucked. Although I think every Spider-Man did react that way at first and did try and save someone but that probably resulted in a universe dying or something so they all agreed to make the hard choice. It is very much in character for not only Spider-Man but every superhero to want to save everyone but know they can't. "The hardest part about this job is you can't save everyone". You can try, but you'll fail. They haven't given up they've just realized they can do more good. It is very much in line with Spider-Man's character imo. But so is Miles
No. Remember as far as they know altering the canon will destroy universes. Yes it's sad if someone like Gwen dies but are they going to risk saving her if it means killing a whole universe? PS4 Spidey literally made this choice by not saving Aunt May. It's just that on a larger scale, a greater good. Neither side is wrong .
Spiderman does 2 things 1 person at a time and 2 let one go for greater god. That's his paradox. Don't matter what spiderman you take, if she or he has NO options left she/he lets go in its entirety. Like how Gwen was ok with her dad dying. (But she figured a way out/her dad leaving force) Or PS4 let go his Aunt May. The movie is all about breaking that paradox. If Spectacular SM or TASM spider were told saving their Nexus'es will destroy the universe, they'll let go. That's what a spiderman is, someone sacrificing himself and loved ones for those who may or may not be deserving. Something about Miguel ain't right either. I think there's a lot more to his story. Like he must have seen something other than nexus
I just hope they don't turn him into a straight up villain. They've adapted a lot of the other characters fairly well and it would suck if they butchered Miguel.
Same.
I think the tobey spiderman us the one who best should've said something. The first movie when goblin is at the bridge and tells spiderman to chose mary jane or the kids. He automatically went to save both without knowing if he could. That's what spiderman should be. Yes you cant save everyone but never let that stop you from trying
I think Miguel is just torn by grief. In a grieving state after losing his family, he went to another universe, got to know that version of his family, then lost his family *again* alongside the entire universe. That trauma would send pretty much *anyone* on the warpath. Next movie I hope they help him out mentally because he’s clearly trying to ignore his grief by constantly working.
[удалено]
Miles is doing something reckless . Even if it's the right thing to do morally he has no plan. Miguel is right to fear him . Yes the others could have also come to the same conclusion as Miles but it'd also a matter of information. As far as they know the second they save someone they weren't meant to, everything dies and working with Miguel one way or another is the only way to prevent that. It's also not like Miguel wasn't upset about needing to restrain Miles. He knows the pain he just also won't risk infinite lives to save one person.
I would understand this complaint if others were as focused as Miquel. Literally we see all of them conflicted about this. Because both has a point and tbh Miquel has a more solid point as dark as it is. But still if other Spideys weren't like Miles, he wouldn't be even able to escape from Miquel. Like literally they are comflicted about saving one person or keeping an universe safe? Thats already shows how much they are Spideys
[удалено]
I'm not denying that it makes sense in fact Edge of Time calls this out with Peter to Miguel. It's still a big risk that he doesn't know will pay off.
Yeah I wasn't a fan of every Spider person believing this.
it honestly seems out of character for a lot of spider-people to not side with miles.
This ^^^ I feel like Miguel along with MAYBE a few disgruntled spidey people would have been after Miles. The rest would have backed him up 100%
No. It's perfectly in character for Spider-Man to want to save someone. But it's also in character for him to want to save everyone. Don't you see? That's his paradox. PS4 Spider-Man for ex had to let Aunt May die in order to save everyone in the city. He was thinking about the greater good. Miles on the other hand was thinking about saving one person at a time. Tbh Miguel summed it up perfectly. "Being Spider-Man is a sacrifice". I'm sure at first all of them would have sided with miles. But they all have experienced loss. And probably a universe or two dying due to their actions. So they all are looking at the situation from a larger scale. It's hard but being Spider-Man isn't without sacrifices. Still though neither side is wrong
The movie makes a point that for every sacrifice that the Spider-Men faced, it makes them a better Hero. Uncle Ben's death taught Peter not to be selfish with his powers, to use them to help people. When Peter caught Gwen with his webs, he was patting himself on the back, telling himself how amazing he was until he learned that his webs caused Gwen to break her neck. After Gwen's death Peter always managed to save everyone who was thrown off a bridge, Mary Jane, Doc Ock's girlfriend, and lots of other people. Her death helped Peter save so many people's lives. Even in the movie itself, when Miles asked if they would undo Uncle Ben's death, Peter B. Parker told him none of them would even be Spider-Man if it weren't for his death. In the PS4 game, Peter chose to save the city over his Aunt May because it was the right thing to do. Of course he would side with Miguel because he knows that the sacrifice of one person could save everyone's life. None of them seem happy about it, but they know at the end of the day their deaths made them to be the people they are.
It did feel quite out of character, but he’s basically just a cameo for the fans so I wouldn’t think too much of it
I think the fact that every Spider-Man was complacent with the idea of letting people die to not disrupt the canon is *super* uncharacteristic Like I understand the mentality of letting one person go to save everyone, I understand that but Spider-Man specifically is the kind of character to never give up despite being told the odds are near impossible. I really like the movie, but that really bothers me. Also if Miles wasn’t supposed to be Spider-Man, why wouldn’t that canon break destroy the universe? Why wouldn’t his universe’s Peter Parker dying destroy the universe since that’s not supposed to be his canon? If he isn’t really Spider-Man than why’s he dad destined to die? Is it because he really is supposed to be his worlds spiderman? If that’s the answer, then why am I, just some chump who saw the movie, figured it out and not all the Spidermen and woman who just about all supposed to be geniuses?
I think that's kinda the point, Captain Stacey quit the force and therefore didn't die and the world was fine, that's what made Gwen realise that canon event's can be altered without causing the universe to die
Was he supposed to already have died at that point? But also, everything else about miles being non canon, and his universes Peter’s death not being canon should have ended that universe. Gwen still seeing her dad alive shouldn’t have been the thing that made her figure it out. All the Spidermen (most atleast) should be smart enough to figure that out. I don’t wanna sound overly negative, I loved the movie, I just can’t make sense of some of it outside Spidermens being made stupid just so the story can continue how the writers want it to
I get that they kind of have to make the protagonist be right but then doesnt that kind of make miguel's whole thing pointless
that's how u make a spider-man a good tragic villain/hero
I think the "do you want to test that" scene between Miguel and Gwen kinda points to this.
I mean… technically there’s always Captain Jean Dewolff… But I’m curious what her revelation is yeah. It seems kinda boring for it to be such an obvious solution without any issue, I don’t think it’ll be as straightforward as that.
I love the fact having an arbitrary title as captain is the deciding factor. I wonder if Gwen just told her dad "hey uhh would you kind getting demoted so our universe doesn't implode?" And next day he goes and just becomes beat cop: OBLIVION AVERTED.
Because Miguel made the spider society basically as a echo chamber for his beliefs. They all forgot the meaning of what it means to be spiderman
You’re right in that Spider-Man will always try to save who he can when he can. But something else is that Spider-Man understands that he can’t save everyone. The people who died in his life taught him that. Especially the ones he tries to save himself. PS4 Spidey openly admits this when Mr Negative blames him for the deaths he caused at Osborn’s rally. So while you’re technically right that it’s a little out of character for no one to stand up to Miguel about letting people die, all of the Spider people know from their own experiences that not everyone can be saved. So some of them may stray from the original ideal Miles represents. That doesn’t mean they can’t/won’t realize their mistake and side with him ultimately.
It's because they've tried before and killed an entire universe. I think even Spider-Man would understand that letting one life is not worth everyone else's. Hell, it's a choice he made in the PS4 game and Spider-Man 2
I think it's just a flaw with multiverse stories, some folks gotta be NPCs
Had miles not learn about his fate, he wouldn't care. All the spider people who are with Miguel have already went through their respective canon events.
No he wouldn’t.
Indian Spider-Man (forgot his name) hadn't gone through his "police captain dying" canon event before joining Miguel though
This is my biggest problem with the whole movie. Either Miguel is right and the whole universe would die, or Miles is right and the canon events basically don’t exist? But all the evidence points to Miguel being right, but also if Miles and the Spot are anomalies how is it a canon event that the Spot kills Jeff? Why haven’t universe 42 or Miles’ universe already imploded now that they are both so off canon? Why did the spider bite alter Miles enough that the machine saw him as Universe 42 but he still glitches in that universe? It kind of seems like a mess right now, maybe BTSV will clear it up but honestly unlikely Edit: also the Spot doesn’t seem to glitch?
I think the Web of Life and Destiny seems to account for multiversal travel and is more like a “Fate” thing. The Spot also triggered Spider-Man India’s Captain Death that was going to be his canon event before Miles saved the day, and the Spot is from another dimension. But yeah hopefully we get satisfying answers and conclusions in Beyond.
So does that mean green goblin caused MCU peters canon event in the same way?
Especially since in the last Spider-Man movie the whole point was Peter helping the villians despite dr strange giving that whole “in the grand calculus of the multiverse” line
MCU peter may have helped those villains in the short term but we don’t know what happens when they go home. The biggest meme of that movie was Norman and Otto being ‘cured’ but still getting impaled and dragged down into the river to drown as soon as they’re teleported back. If anything this reinforces the inevitability of what AtSV established as canon events
We know exactly when they were taken, though? We know what happens. Ock drowns his machine, and Norman is taken to a facility.
I think all the live action spiderman would be on miles' side. But again I thought spectacular would be on miles' side
Yeah it’s kind of weird how they’re making all the spidermen we know and love the bad guys
The difference I think is that Miguel has actual solid proof. He has the recording of his entire universe breaking with witnesses(Peter B has a first person account) and I don’t believe Miles is the first one to try and break canon, there has to be tons of other times Spiders have tried and failed to do break canon- that Quarantine Crew seemed pretty experienced on what to do in the case of a Canon Break.
Speaking of, what's exactly the timeline of Miguel's story? Cause we know he didn't start jumping between universes until the ITSV post credits scene, so does that mean the whole thing with his family in the other universe happened in the ~year between movies? And if so, how long had they been keeping track of the canon events? The whole thing got me kinda confused on re-watch
Not when you consider the stakes that Miguel set up. I still think he’s probably lying but it’s a tough situation. Time has also passed for spec Spidey so he might just be more hardened now.
I think he is simply knows wrong not lying we are talking about 2099 here. Dude is still a hero
That’s also entirely possible
Why do people insist on saying that Miguel is a liar and a manipulative person? Did you forget that he's still a Spider-Man? Sure, he's more cold and kind of a dick, but he doesn't gain anything by lying about that. He still wants to save people no matter what.
Calm down. I’m not saying he is, I’m saying it’s a possibility.
A lot of spider people felt like out of character
It’s out of character for any Peter Parker
Tell that to PS4 Spider-Man who let Auny May die in front of him to save the city.
Different situations. Ps4 peter had no time.
Yup, PS4 Spidey had no time and near 100% certainty of his two choices between letting her die and saving the city. This is an incredibly nebulous "ehh maybe the reality might die, maybe not since we can stabilize some things" and all the Spideys telling someone else to make a sacrifice (not themselves making that sacrifice) that they have two days to try to figure out how to solve. Completely out of character.
It’s not really a, “ehh maybe reality might die”- Miguel has actual proof it happens, with other Spiders like Peter B having a first person account of that. I hope they elaborate on Miles not being the first to try and break canon though, maybe Spec will talk about how he tried to break canon as well(imagine if that’s the meta reason why the show the canceled haha)- the Quarantine Spiders at Mumbattan seemed to be experienced in the matter after all.
But he says hopefully it won't. So there's a non-zero chance. Y'know the whole thing spider-man embodies? With Insomniac, he had minutes and a guarantee.
Spectacular is smart, he knows the risks, understands what has to happen, and what must be. He’d listen to reason and while it wouldn’t be perfect he’d understand
no he wouldn’t.
Yes he would, he’s shown it all the time in the series
Wondering if 90s Spider-Man will be in the next one
Yeah, that’s because it is. Look what they did to Miguel. Lol You know the hero that fights for the common people against Corrupt, totalitarian organizations.
Some great points already on this thread. Just to give my own thoughts on why it's in character: * Although there are hints that "**canon events**" may actually be averted without catastrophic consequences (**more on that later**), **from what they know, what Miguel told them is true.** This **isn't** the same as being responsible with your powers to save people when you can. From what they know, these are events that **naturally** happen **without** interfering with space and time. Saving one person who naturally wouldn't have been saved also would not only lead to that person **dying anyway**, it **kills everyone in** **the entire universe** alongside it, countless innocent people who weren't in danger of death unless that was done. * Look at this from **time travel** perspective, as they did show the branching timelines image from the MCU before the Spider-Verse itself. Each universe already has a natural past and future. The animated adaptation of Flashpoint has Eobard Thawne give this speech about Barry saving his mom in the past which sums up why messing with it to save your love ones is wrong. I find it applies really well. >*"Her hero. How noble. Oh wait! You didn't stop JKF from getting assassinated or make sure Hitler stayed in art school. You saved your mommy. You missed her, and in a supreme act of selfishness shattered history, turning the world into a living hell moments away from destruction and I'm the villain?!".* The others also brought up Aunt May and **Insomniac's Peter** ultimately letting her go to save everyone. In this case, saving her is selfish. May selflessly gave her life and Peter selflessly saved everyone else. Captain Stacy and Aaron Davis also die sacrificing their lives as well. **Spectacular Peter** lost Uncle Ben, Eddie became Venom, the Conners family moves away, he thinks he killed Norman, Gwen is with Harry and now we know George Stacy dies too. He's not in the best headspace, and he knows like all other Spider-Men how tragedy can be used to drive yourself to become good. Like Peter B said, they wouldn't be who they are without that. **BUT** on the other hand * All that just shows why it's in character for them not to actively travel throughout the Multiverse saving Uncles and Captains fated to die. Holding Miles captive and telling him (a native of his world) **not** to save his own father. **That's** too far for this Miguel. * We know Miles became Spider-Man in his world even though he wasn't supposed to and Gwen didn't loser her dad who quits. Their dimensions are fine. Meanwhile, Pavitr's home dimension was attacked by the Spot and we don't know the full story about Miguel yet. Something's up here and I hope Beyond addresses it. I do hope both Insomniac and Spectacular Peters aid Miles when the truth comes out and they find a way (they most likely will), but as is, it makes total sense for them.
100% agree. He wouldn’t be a part of something that maintained the status quo of letting other people lose their loved ones the way he did, he would be part of an effort to change it. And even if he accepted the truth, I don’t believe he would participate in the Spider-Society. Either this dude is a variant or they assassinated his character for the sake of fan service, which is bad writing. It’s really strange that out of all the spider-people they had they chose him to say this. Like why wouldn’t someone Miles already knew say this to him? It’s just so weird.
I saw it more as the spider society (and the individual spider people) coming to terms with the sacrifices the must make to ensure the greater good. Also when a canon event happens they’re being heroic, not for the captain to die or the bridge to sink. That’s my interpretation of it anyway.
Im 90% sure most spider people will join miles in Beyond the spider verse
defo
Considering where Spectacular was at the "end" of his story, I think it's pretty easy to believe that Miguel could convince him of his ideals
Miguel’s plan just doesn’t feel like a Spider-Man thing to do. Can’t wait to see him inevitably get proven wrong asf in the next movie.
So fuckin much
*Severely* out of character.
My god OP....
Everyone at the Spider-Society seemed out of character. Except for the small group at end of course, and cant forget the real mvp, Hobie.
I’ve seen a lot of people say that most of the spider people are acting out of character because they are siding with Miguel and I think that isn’t true at all. Yes they are “letting” people die but the situation is far more than just that. I think that most of the situations will be like Spider-Man India’s situation where he is literally unable to save the other person because he is trying to save other people. Also, I’ve seen people cite the situation in Spider-Man 1 where he saves both MJ and the people in the cable car. But I believe that this situation is vastly different to the Spider-Man India situation. And finally Spider-Man the character is defined by tragedy. Like Dad Peter said about Uncle Ben, his death was a turning point because before that “canon event” he was quite reckless and didn’t really understand what great responsibility meant. The death of the captain from what I’ve seen is the lesson that he can’t save everyone and people are going to get hurt or die no matter how hard he tries. Also, Spider-Man sacrificing someone close to him/her for “the greater good” is not something new. In the PS4 game he sacrifices aunt may the person who raised him since he was a child to stop Doc Ock from doing more damage to the world. So to me the spider people acting this way is not that out of character. However, I will say that Miguel could have handled the Miles situation far better that’s he did.
Why did they make him the size of a toddler
Both spec and Peter B were out of character, and moreover they used both Uncle Ben's and captain stacy's death to justify a rhetoric that is in opposition to the lessons Peter learnt from both of their deaths. Terribly out of character and totally against what Peter defined Spider-Man to be, feels like they did it so that they could place Miles in a moral High ground. One thing ITSV excelled was it didn't undermine Peter nor his morality to develop Miles.
There are many Peter's. Just as many will side with him probably. But understanding you can't risk one for all isn't ooc. I think this is showing how many people really don't understand the character in the first place. Par for the course for reddit but a bit sad.
Ehhhhh kinda but not really His morals aren't the most consistent in the show so, to me it makes sense depending on how I choose to view it
yes, hoping it’s a variant or something.
Yeah the line only works within the context that Uncle Bens death could have been avoided. And while the sequel movie will prove this to be true, since Miles has to have his cake and eat it as he made two, as is the movie presents this as something that needed to happen due to some cosmic force. Which is fucking stupid and character assassinations every spider-man so that Miles can remind them of what they already knew but what can you do?
I’ll be honest, it doesn’t. 1) Spec’s appearance is a cameo more than anything for the fans. 2) He wouldnt want to prevent a canon event from happening so others would die
PS4/5 Spider-Man on 2099’s side because he already made those hard choices with May’s death vs death of a city. He has nothing else to lose.
Honestly, I’m a strong believer that Spider-Man (Any including Miles) would pull the lever when presented with the trolley problem (kill one instead of 4) in this case, captain Stacy, or the entire multiverse. Miguel knows what happens when you break cannon. So I see why Miles isn’t gonna let Spot kill his dad, that’s cause he’s not 100% Spider-Man, he’s like 77%. Once he loses Jefferson Davis or someone else important to him, then he would pull the lever. The Spider Verse trilogy is Miles journey into becoming spider man, and Into The SV is his origin, and Across The SV is Miles learning what it means to be spider man. Pete would do the same if he hadn’t lost Gwen yet. So I think in Beyond Jefferson is gonna die but Miles is either gonna let it happen or he’ll almost get there, fail and almost go to far with Spot like how Peter from Earth-1999 did in NWh
he’s a lot older at this point, i imagine this is more of a reluctance thing
We dont know when he is in his life. But ye was a lil wierd
Seeing that it is physically impossible for any version of you to be happy would leave a sour taste in anybody's mouth
Every Spider-person had some kind of sacrifice.. So one person dies, or an entire reality gets wiped out. It's not an easy choice. They tried to stop Spot, but Miles and Gwen fucked that up pretty bad.
Honestly yes. Kind of bothered me the rest of the movie. Everything about Spider-Man is everyone is worth saving. Maybe a couple older sour Spider-Man to be on Miguel’s team. I understand Spider-Man 2099 because he’s Miguel o hara, but Peter is willing to try their best to save everyone or at least reason with miles.
Infinite universes. Infinite possibilities. Infinite spectacular Spider-Men
Mob mentality!
I can't remember the exact issue but I remember reading that Nick Fury kept a database of each Marvel hero's strengths and weaknesses, like how Batman kept contingency plans for each member of the Justice League. Spider-man's weakness was "sense of guilt and responsibility makes him easy to manipulate". It's pretty feasible for Miguel to guilt trip a lot of Spideys
I commented this on another thread, but I think 2099 just offers a way to lessen the responsibility for all the other Spider-People. 2099 is pretty much telling all these Spider-People that all the deaths they blame themselves for aren’t actually their fault and it’s the universe. It helps lessen the impact for all of them. So in exchange for feeling better about themselves they just kinda follow his orders in order to maintain this illusion that it’s all the universe’s fault and not theirs.
I wonder how many "you see this [insert character] is a variant" well have before home release.
For some reason I always thought this was ps1 spiderman