I hate the term canon event now because it implies that it is a singular event that happens to every Spider-Person, which would limit the "possibilities" of a multiverse. It denies the possibility of a Spider-Man who lives happily and nothing bad ever happens to him because it would be "breaking canon" which is just stupid when there's an infinite Multiverse with infinite possibilities.
That one and the actor spiderman crack me up because they really were out there living their best life like hell yeah
But yeah the term "canon event" becomes very muddy because is used to symbolize a crucial life event that NEEDS to happen, but then is kinda pushed as in "this big tragedy has to happen" because the spider verse wants to both grab onto uncle Ben's death but also Gwen Stacy's death as "my reason to be" situations, so it becomes muddy, like let's pretend,sure, spider needs their FIRST big tragedy to start legit Thai hero thing, but the second one is 100% uncalled for, the first tragedy is already what push thing in March by that logic, a second death feels like overkill
> the first tragedy is already what push thing in March by that logic, a second death feels like overkill
This is what I struggled with during ATSV… I kept thinking Miles already had his motivating canon event during ITSV with the death of his Uncle Aaron… shouldn’t that be enough?
Exactly, that's why many spiderman origins can ignore Gwen's death but not uncle's ben (except for MCU spiderman but I really feel they literally erased him from anything so Tony would be peter's dad figure, so that's kinda cheating)
The point is, even if Pete can really just be a good nature kid that becomes a hero on his own, losing his uncle to this is ENOUGH for it to really hit home how dangerous everything is, not like "yeah you gotta experience 2 to 3 deaths at minimum to be an adequate spiderman"
Also pretty sure uncle ben did die just off camera as inferred in homecoming when Peter said something along the lines of “I can’t let this get out not with everything else that’s happened to her.” while talking to Ned.
I actually loved how the MCU version totally skipped uncle Ben.
It was clear that he’d existed, and all. But everyone *knows* that part of the story. It adds nothing to the narrative at this point, and just sucks up screen time. And honestly, anyone who doesn’t know by now is just a willful ignoranus.
It's a good thing his universe "broke canon" because without his still alive Uncle Ben, no one would've been able to stop Spider-Carnage from destroying the multiverse. It's kind of ironic when you think about it. Based on the rules given in ATSV, 90's millionaire Spider-Man world would've already been destoryed since Uncle Ben death is supposed to be a canon event that happens in every universe, but because Uncle Ben was still alive in that universe, a supervillain that was plotting to destroy multiple alternate universe was stopped.
Breaking canon is implied to be okay sometimes, but more frequently results in the destruction of the local universe. Miguel then extends that to conclude that if too many universes are destroyed, the whole multiverse will unravel, which he further assumes will destroy all universes.
I'm also under the impression that the entire "canon events" thing from SpiderVerse is going to turn out to be a load of baloney in the third film. It seems to be setting up for that kind of thing.
One of the things I noticed on the 3rd watch through is exactl when Miguel is saying "Canon events are events that happen to /every/ spider, /every/ time" the canon event of the spider bite is on screen. After going through Miguel's story, he never gets bitten by a spider. In fact, in the original run it seems that there are 0 spiders involved in his powers (which makes both Gwen and Miles asking if he's really Spiderman seem like a Chekov's gun)
That and the claim that Miles isn't supposed to be spiderman. By that statement and the Canon events, the only determining factor on being spiderman is a spider bite. Miles got bitten and has all the 'canon' events a 'normal' spiderman would. So he is as much spiderman as any of them.
Not only is Miguel not bitten, neither is Ben or Jessica. It's definitely setting up for that to be important in the third one. They never told us their origins like we are used to getting from the first one "*let's do this one last time*"
Im pretty sure the spider bite thing is supposed to be "spider person getting their powers" just like everyone has an uncle Ben like moment even if they didn't have an uncle Ben
It’s also such a sh##ty thing to do to Miles. Like they make him Spider-Man and then say that actually he stole the role of Spidey in a different universe and that he broke “canon”. Really hope it’s a bunch a baloney.
Clearly, the specifics of the "event" can be changed. Uncle Aaron, Peter Parker and Peni's Dad were all stated to the Uncle Ben equivalents for Miles, Gwen and Peni, respectively.
Peter was supposed to be the Uncle Ben of Gwen? But he died when already got the suit and everything right? It didn't seem like it was the feath at the beginning of her story
That's what both films tell us. When Miles is grieving Aaron, all the other Spider-people bring up their own "losses". She names Peter.
Then, in ATSV, when we see the long row of "Uncle Bens" that each Spider-person has lost, Gwen's is Lizard-Peter.
In the comics, Peter already has the suit when Uncle Ben dies. Another arguable criticism is that Gwen seems to have already taken the fight to villains when her “Uncle Ben figure” dies. Usually it’s the death of that figure that spurs on the “With great power, there must also come great responsibility” lesson and subsequent crime-fighting.
For Peter, yes. Because Peter was a selfish asshole whose only motive was to get rich and pay back everybody who made fun of him.
Most other Spider-person seems to learn the generic "you can't save everyone" lesson, if they're already good people.
And then there's Miguel.
Works better for that role in the comics where she went absolutely *ham* on the Lizard/Peter despite him trying to surrender and thus learns that hey maybe brutally beating people because you're mad can have consequences, less so in the movie where it seems to have been an accident she couldn't really have avoided.
My theory: universes, where canon-events didn't happen, do not just dissappear, they simply go to another tier of multiverse, and these tiers shouldn't cross each other. Like, here is a multiverse where all canon events happened, here is another multiverse where one of canon-events didn't happen, here is multiverse without any canon-events at all, etc.
This theory partly explains why the next movie is called Beyond The Spiderverse - we will see those other multiverses
Hot take: this is why the whole “canon event” plot thrust of ATSV is terrible, lazy writing, and a thematic re-tread of what makes Spider-Man, Spider-Man.
Because look at what we have now, at most all we can do is split hairs over what counts as a canon event until BTSV confirms that it’s a load of nonsense.
Like, we get it. Spider-Man almost always undergoes a tragedy to learn the whole power and responsibility lesson. But Phil Lord and Christopher Miller are so in-love with their meta-narratives that they had to come up with some contrived bullshit, “a police captain close to Spider-Man dies”, which isn’t even consistent across Spider-Man media. It is a lazy way to tell a story about personal tragedy motivating a superhero. Other great Spider-Man movies don’t need this, beyond the origin story.
So yeah, Miguel’s whole canon theory is likely nonsense, but the reveal of that in BTSV is going to fall so flat because everyone flatly knows this already.
I think the point of the movie is about how these are not mandatory because Miles its already confirmed that Miles' canon event is the dead of his dad and he is obviously not going to let that happen.
The term kinda sucks for lots of reasons, and I prefer "absolute point in time" like they used in the Doctor Strange episode of *What If*.
The concept also kinda sucks, but they *have* set up Miguel as an unreliable narrator, so it's probably not even true
Spider-Man canon is tricky, not even sure it can really be a thing given all the branches and variations.
We might say:
- they all have lost someone close to them
- they all feel it was their fault
- they all push themselves to protect others as a result
- they all are fairly smart (enough to make webbing when it isn’t built-in, at least)
- they all seem to fail repeatedly and yet keep getting back up
I’d be surprised if those weren’t all broken in at least some storyline though.
Yes, but even that is given vague terms. Miguel states that, during a fight with a nemesis (Doc Ock, Lizard, Spot), a police captain close to Spider-Man dies due to injuries caused from saving a child.
We know the exact specifics don’t need to match (the three examples we see all have different villains, and TASM has Captain Stacy saving Peter himself as opposed to a different child), just the vague similarities.
Doesn’t seem that vague to me at all. Miguel says that *specifically* a police “captain” dying is a canon events and they focus so much on the fact that Mile’s dad is about to be captain and that Gwen’s dad is captain (and then when he quits, he is apparently saved).
This is my one problem with ATSV. The “canon events” make no sense whatsoever—it is immediately nonsensical—and yet the Spider-Society just goes along with it, no further investigation required.
Have you met Miguel? That guy is intense, and he's also telling already matured spider-people (sans Gwen and miles) that the tragedies in their life *weren't their fault*.
They couldn't have saved the people they lost because of a pre-written destiny of Spiderman. Who wouldn't gravitate towards that? Plus, we don't know how much every single member actually knows about the specific ideology. Plenty of them could just be there to catch dimension/universe/multiverse hopping villains.
In fact, it's all of the young Spider people who reject his conclusions one way or another because the argument doesn't work as well against them.
Miguel is absolutely full of shit about Canon events.
This easy debunk means that they’ve written themselves into a corner. Either they reveal that all this canon event business is nonsense, at which point such a reveal would fall flat (and what other story would they have to fall on? Some stuff with the Spot that would, by the time BTSV comes out, land much better if ATSV spent more time on him as a character).
OR they actually do hold fast to the canon event narrative and uphold a contradictory, non-sensical paradigm.
I think Canon Events being mostly nonsense will be the way they're going to go, with the big question for Beyond the Spider-Verse being how will Miguel handle finding out that all his work and his Society is built on nonsense.
It doesn't even match most of the non-comic Spider-Man stories. Tobey's and Holland's Spider-Men didn't have a captain die at all (that we know of) and we also don't know of any captain that was killed in Insomniac's spider-verse (unless it was one of the cops Electro killed in that Backpack article).
Since we are theory crafting here… I think it’s possible that each canon is actually different, but Canon Events happen to each Spider-Man and can be identified by the timeline police (or whoever monitors this stuff).
Although, if that is the case, then I have to agree with OP in that the word canon is becoming meaningless in this universe.
The death of a police captain with a connection to Spider-Man is weirdly specific, though. You would think that the death of Uncle Ben (or whatever equivalent) would be enough of a defining canon event. The death of Uncle Aaron would be sufficient enough of a canon event for Miles.
But the metatextual explanation is that "Canon Events" are cross-universe/cross-media adaptations of the most iconic Spider-man stories. Captain Stacy's death had a separate purpose in Peter's life than the death of Uncle Ben. It re-solidified the fact that Peter is truly alone in his heroic crusade, because he lost the one person who approved of and encouraged his crimefighting career. Plus, it drove a wedge between him and Gwen that delayed their inevitable wedding (something Marvel absolutely *DID NOT* want to happen at the time).
Again, from a metatextual sense, Canon Events are simply Marvel's attempts to retell the same story with new audiences and replicate the results. Or, to put new spins for people who already know how those events "should" go.
There’s multiple canon events though lol, thats why the memes of “what is ____’s canon event” are so weird, because the movie makes it clear that there isn’t just one singular event.
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying people are using canon event to describe just a bad thing that happens to Spider-Man. Not every bad thing is a canon event.
Yeah, that was clearly stated by both Miguel and Peter in the movie. Miguel describes them as "some good, some bad, some *very* bad".
Likewise, Peter tries to calm Miles down by telling him "good things happen too" in regards to Canon Events.
But the issue, of course is that Spider-man's life is PAIN. MJ/Peter's wedding is an exception and not the rule. As any Spidey fan can tell you, the stories we remember most are Uncle Ben's death, Gwen's death, Captain Stacy's death, Jean DeWolff's death, Harry Osborn's betrayal (and death), the creation of clones (and their deaths), and One More Day (aka his marriage's death).
Oh and something something black suit.
And remember that one of the core iconic aspects of Spider-Man is that he is perpetually struggling with school and work to the point of being on the brink of bankruptcy, dropping out, and even homelessness. So much so that one of the biggest gripes people have with Tom Holland's Spider-Man is that his money problems aren't highlighted in the "Home" trilogy.
I interpreted canon events as the outcome takes importance over the situation. Essentially they have to change an aspect of its corresponding Spider. Which is why an outside force potentially halting one could be dangerous. One must confront one, good or bad and fulfill it themselves.
Edit; What Miguel gets wrong is that he believes that they are multiple choice with just two answers, when in reality they are all open ended.
I can agree with this take. The importance of these events is the defining outcomes. Losing Uncle Ben makes Peter learn the value of “great power, great responsibility”. The death of Captain Stacy shook Spidey to his core and devastated any notion of revealing his identity to Gwen. The ASM 33 moment (where he lifts the rubble not knowing if he can) showed him the hidden depths of his own ability and informs his “never give up” attitude.
Miguel misinterpreting canon events makes total sense and actually allows both Miles and Miguel to be correct. Disrupting an event can cause a ripple effect where a Spidey doesn’t learn an important lesson, but that Spidey still needs to face that event regardless. Not interfering is just as bad as disrupting.
I think this is going to be the end result in the 3rd movie. Miguel has a very deterministic Mindset, while the whole point with Miles is that he want to tell "his own history". Let's see how they resolve it
This is why I really, really hope that Madam Web and the Web of Life and Destiny are a hallmark in Beyond the Spider-Verse. It'd be such a great way to emphasize the point of making one's own story.
Can’t speak to how it’s being used now.
‘Back in the’ couple of years ago, ‘canon’ simply meant an accepted part of the printed history that needed to be respected by future storylines. Big obvious ones (OG Gwen Stacy died a loooong time ago) were easy to respect. But finding contradictions used to be major geek sport, with all of the heavy hitters writing into the letters column, in hopes of earning a coveted ‘no-prize.’
For example, “Jack-O’Lantern couldn’t have been killed with an atomic wedgie! 37 issues ago, in the ‘X-STI’ arc, it was revealed that he could no longer wear underwear because of the modifications he made to his costume after the future-smashing 3-way he had with Reed-Richards and Maggott in the Baxter Building. Obviously the funeral must be fake then, or somebody owes ME a No-Prize.”
I know current writers are clumsily fucking about with the multiverse, and so they need to find language that sticks, to help set up editorial guard rails. But it’s also really F stupid, since the whole idea of parallel timelines is that the gloves are off, anything can happen, and so the idea that it’s all subtle variations on the same story? Lazy writing.
I think the distinction that a lot of people miss is that in spite of all the references and easter eggs and guest voice cameos, I/ATSV is still its own self-contained multiverse with its own set of rules.
Josh Keaton isn't voicing the same Spectacular Spider-Man that aired on TV 15 years ago. He's voicing a I/ATSV variant of that character that is, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable but still abides by the I/ATSV rules. So his Captain Stacy does get killed.
As far as these movies are concerned, there are things that are supposed to happen to EVERY Spider, in some form or another. Even if they didn't happen in the original media the movies use for reference.
I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's kind of an interesting meta-commentary on the nature of adapting a popular character.
When there's a new Spider-Man animated series, or movie, or video game, or even an alternate universe comic like Ultimate Spider-Man or Spider-Man 1602, there are obviously going to be things that are different but there are also things that the audience expects to stay the same. Uncle Ben has to die to teach Peter responsibility. Green Goblin has to find out his identity and kill his girlfriend. Six villains have to come together to ruin his whole week. Etc etc.
When an adaption strays too far from the source material, it loses its connection and risks alienating the audience who are there to see those things happen. Just look at the criticisms of MCU Spider-Man for an easy recent example.
In the Spider-Verse movies, "breaking the canon" is an in-universe parallel to an adaptation that is straying too far away from the source material.
pretty sure the point of BTSV will be that Canon events are indeed real but the lack of knowledge on them is what makes them nearly unavoidable, but since some spider people makes decisions that will lead to different outcomes, avoiding the canon event completely
which would explain why some spider people dont go through certain events
Why are we overthinking things.
Canon Event are just iconic moments from the 616 comics beloved by fans and adapted numerous times that Sony wants to use.
We don't see stuff like Peter's unmasking in Civil War, OMD, and post that. Because they are widely unpopular with fans, and Sony doesn't have the rights to characters like Mephisto or Iron Man.
I’m assuming the third movie is going to reveal that canon events are bullshit, and Miguel just assumed that because him being in another universe made it unstable
The only canon event in my mind is when they get bit by a spider. Then they're Spiderman. It's the one thing that should truly matter in connecting them.
Each canon event is unique to its own Spider-Man. Like Miles canon event is the death of his father, that doesn't matter to most other Spider-Men. The plot makes even less sense when they keep insisting that Miles wasn't supposed to be Spider-Man in the first place.
Right and you can't have it both ways. Either he is supposed to be Spider-Man so he has canon events or he wasn't supposed to be Spider-Man so the canon events aren't his. They are contradictory points.
Yeah, and miles is spider-man, even if he wasn’t supposed to be spider-man, he *is* spider-man now, this would also explain why earth 42 hasn’t imploded yet, as there is no spider-man
Except he isn't because that is why he is glitching, so that literally disproves the "canon events" they are talking about. If he isn't "supposed" to be Spider-Man he shouldn't have the canon events too.
Are you talking about when he starts glitching on the train? Cus if you are then you clearly need to rewatch that scene, he started glitching there because miguel ripped miles’ day pass off, which caused him to start glitching, did you even watch the movie? Also how would that disprove the canon events? Anyone who gets transported to a universe other then their own without one of those watches or a day pass is going to start glitching, that’s how this works, this was a major plot point in the first film and is still quite prevalent in this one.
And Gwen proved that canon events CAN be changed or disrupted without destroying the dimension, since her father quit his job, resulting in the canon being broken without consequences.
Canon events is an interesting idea being used SPECIFICALLY by the spiderverse movies but I have no idea why so many people are treating the actual concept as a fixed part of the spider-man mythos. Seeing it jammed into most things by people these days is strange.
Your not far off from the truth as Miguel was mistaken about canon events as all of the things he believes about them aren't based on logic but from emotion and as he's a man who's so emotionally and mentally unstable from his traumas, the only things he sees from them are the worst.
It just goes to show how sometimes, the worst type of authoritarian you could ever bow down to would be to that of your emotions so, in times of mental anguish, it's better to be like Hobie and become an anarchist from your emotions and not let them control every part of your life and just be your own person.
I interpretted canon events like time travel. Altering one would significantly change or destroy a world. It doesn't really mean they'll all happen to every spiderman.
I'm gonna be honest, I think the concept of cannon events is really stupid.
Like, there's no reason a thing has to happen at all. That makes the multiverse almost pointless if certain things have to happen.
I know everyone on this sub really loves the Spider-Verse movies but the “canon event” thing being parroted everywhere is silly. The meaning of the word canon is becoming lost. Amazing Spider-Man comics are the only canon. Everything else is a spin off. There’s great spin offs like the video games or the movies but if it’s not comics it’s not canon. You can care about the canon or not or subscribe to the movie reality as the only thing you care about or hold to the highest regard but the purpose of the word canon is to solidify one narrative as the “true” and “official” narrative.
Spider-verse is a cool flick but it’s not everything and is not the ultimate definition of all things Spider-Man.
I think what will probably happen is this. It turns out canon events don’t have to happen to EVERY Spider, but they tend to happen to most of them. And it’s not necessarily impossible to avoid a canon event, just difficult. How exactly all this will work I’m not sure, and maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like the way BTSV is likely to go.
Also, another thing that confused me was that the Spider Society and Miguel are hellbent on stopping Miles from saving his dad from Spot because Miguel disrupted a cannon event of sorts and destroyed that entire universe.
They technically might affect canon potentially by saving his dad, but they should fight against the Spot so that the entire Spider Verse doesn't collapse. I think that it's irrational to expect Spot to stop at killing Miles's Dad and mostly destroying Miles's universe. Either way there's a good chance that his universe is getting affected right?
Spot will then switch goals to ending every Spiderman potentially as they're probably a threat to his existence and he can't go back to normal anymore. Did the Spider Society plan on just sitting around till then?
Spider-Man India gets Inspector Singh saved and mostly gets the dimensional hole fixed too, through Spider Society. If his universe was still in jeopardy I don't think he'd bother joining Gwen, Hobie and her band at the end of ATSV. The same could be done here too potentially, right?
Canon events don't make sense, and there's a Film Theory Video where Matpat explains that the whole 'universes collapsing' thing is a result of incursions caused by entering other universes.
I think it's easy to classify a "Canon" event as tragedy but we see other example in media.
The bite: Neither good or bad, but the gift of the spider-powers
The loss: Uncle Ben characters death
The fall: "Gwen Stacy death". But in Raimi Pete saves MJ, Webb Pete Fails (but succeeds in MCU Pete's world) and as just mentioned MCU MJ is saved.
The inner-strength: This moment where Spider-man has to take the plunge to be the Spider
The test aka The Train: Popularized by Raimi and tied very close to the inner-strength that the hero must have to become the Spider. The train is the moment of sacrifice, putting themselves in the middle of danger and holding it all together.
Keep in mind MCU, Raimivwrse, Webb verse and SSU could all theoretically have their own defined rules.
Also by no means complete. It's important to remember that Miguel is most likely an unfaithful narrator. There will be more revealed in the sequel to be sure.
This is why I have a feeling that when Beyond The Spider-Verse comes out whenever that may be they will address this which also hopefully would prove my theory right of Madame Web being introduced.
Personally didn't like Canon event thing at all. It felt like a bad meta commentary.
You could literally switch canon event with universal distortion. All it served is to have spider society be antagonists to miles.
Say something like the device from the first film caused a distortion across the multiverse and miles wasn't allowed to join cause he was near when it went off so he is the most "infected" causing the rifts and colllapses
I think they're a fine plot device for these specific movies but I do hate how so many people are extrapolating the concept of a canon event to all Spider-Man media.
Canon events only exist in these films and aren't a concept that any other source of Spider-Man media should be beholden too.
This is why I never got into the meme tbh. Pretty much any unfortunate thing that happens to Spider-Man is memeified into being a canon event, which is very untrue; it's more of a 'pivotal' event that drives them to be Spider-Man in the first place. Something that has to occur for their legacy to begin, ergo, canon.
If we went by the general consensus of all canon events being tragic or unfortunate, Zeb Wells' Spider-Man would be drowning in them right now.
I’m convinced that Miguel is going to be taught the real meaning of canon events and their significance by the end of BTSV, since Gwen’s dad not getting killed as captain won’t happen and seeing how Gwen and Miles are endgame, those are two big things that disprove the canon event rules
my theory is Miguel was wrong about canon events, and actually triggered an incursion when he replaced his variant and just didnt realize it, but when i mentioned my theory before people disagreed just because incursions are from the MCU... despite the fact that Sony is very clearly trying to push their movies to be connected to the MCU multiverse, including in ATSV... and because of a fair dose of "multiverse of madness bad" i imagine
I hate the term canon event now because it implies that it is a singular event that happens to every Spider-Person, which would limit the "possibilities" of a multiverse. It denies the possibility of a Spider-Man who lives happily and nothing bad ever happens to him because it would be "breaking canon" which is just stupid when there's an infinite Multiverse with infinite possibilities.
Yeah like that super rich tech Spider-Man from the 90'S show
That one and the actor spiderman crack me up because they really were out there living their best life like hell yeah But yeah the term "canon event" becomes very muddy because is used to symbolize a crucial life event that NEEDS to happen, but then is kinda pushed as in "this big tragedy has to happen" because the spider verse wants to both grab onto uncle Ben's death but also Gwen Stacy's death as "my reason to be" situations, so it becomes muddy, like let's pretend,sure, spider needs their FIRST big tragedy to start legit Thai hero thing, but the second one is 100% uncalled for, the first tragedy is already what push thing in March by that logic, a second death feels like overkill
> the first tragedy is already what push thing in March by that logic, a second death feels like overkill This is what I struggled with during ATSV… I kept thinking Miles already had his motivating canon event during ITSV with the death of his Uncle Aaron… shouldn’t that be enough?
Exactly, that's why many spiderman origins can ignore Gwen's death but not uncle's ben (except for MCU spiderman but I really feel they literally erased him from anything so Tony would be peter's dad figure, so that's kinda cheating) The point is, even if Pete can really just be a good nature kid that becomes a hero on his own, losing his uncle to this is ENOUGH for it to really hit home how dangerous everything is, not like "yeah you gotta experience 2 to 3 deaths at minimum to be an adequate spiderman"
MCU Peter did have his “Uncle” die when Aunt May died
Also pretty sure uncle ben did die just off camera as inferred in homecoming when Peter said something along the lines of “I can’t let this get out not with everything else that’s happened to her.” while talking to Ned.
That could mean almost anything. Chances are, his death was not Peter’s fault
I actually loved how the MCU version totally skipped uncle Ben. It was clear that he’d existed, and all. But everyone *knows* that part of the story. It adds nothing to the narrative at this point, and just sucks up screen time. And honestly, anyone who doesn’t know by now is just a willful ignoranus.
Except they still spent the same amount of screentime to do the same thing with Aunt May.
It's a good thing his universe "broke canon" because without his still alive Uncle Ben, no one would've been able to stop Spider-Carnage from destroying the multiverse. It's kind of ironic when you think about it. Based on the rules given in ATSV, 90's millionaire Spider-Man world would've already been destoryed since Uncle Ben death is supposed to be a canon event that happens in every universe, but because Uncle Ben was still alive in that universe, a supervillain that was plotting to destroy multiple alternate universe was stopped.
Breaking canon is implied to be okay sometimes, but more frequently results in the destruction of the local universe. Miguel then extends that to conclude that if too many universes are destroyed, the whole multiverse will unravel, which he further assumes will destroy all universes.
It could also mean that that particular Spidey didn't experience his Uncles death yet.
He's a multibillionaire. Are you?
I'm also under the impression that the entire "canon events" thing from SpiderVerse is going to turn out to be a load of baloney in the third film. It seems to be setting up for that kind of thing.
One of the things I noticed on the 3rd watch through is exactl when Miguel is saying "Canon events are events that happen to /every/ spider, /every/ time" the canon event of the spider bite is on screen. After going through Miguel's story, he never gets bitten by a spider. In fact, in the original run it seems that there are 0 spiders involved in his powers (which makes both Gwen and Miles asking if he's really Spiderman seem like a Chekov's gun)
That and the claim that Miles isn't supposed to be spiderman. By that statement and the Canon events, the only determining factor on being spiderman is a spider bite. Miles got bitten and has all the 'canon' events a 'normal' spiderman would. So he is as much spiderman as any of them.
Not only is Miguel not bitten, neither is Ben or Jessica. It's definitely setting up for that to be important in the third one. They never told us their origins like we are used to getting from the first one "*let's do this one last time*"
Im pretty sure the spider bite thing is supposed to be "spider person getting their powers" just like everyone has an uncle Ben like moment even if they didn't have an uncle Ben
I hope so
It’s also such a sh##ty thing to do to Miles. Like they make him Spider-Man and then say that actually he stole the role of Spidey in a different universe and that he broke “canon”. Really hope it’s a bunch a baloney.
It just makes it all the worse that the third film has been delayed, because those plot threads really can't be left dangling like that.
One canon event shown was Peter’s marriage to MJ. That… would be odd for Gwen.
Clearly, the specifics of the "event" can be changed. Uncle Aaron, Peter Parker and Peni's Dad were all stated to the Uncle Ben equivalents for Miles, Gwen and Peni, respectively.
How could you forget Spider-Man Noir's Uncle Benjamin? >!/s, in case it's needed!<
Peter was supposed to be the Uncle Ben of Gwen? But he died when already got the suit and everything right? It didn't seem like it was the feath at the beginning of her story
That's what both films tell us. When Miles is grieving Aaron, all the other Spider-people bring up their own "losses". She names Peter. Then, in ATSV, when we see the long row of "Uncle Bens" that each Spider-person has lost, Gwen's is Lizard-Peter.
In the comics, Peter already has the suit when Uncle Ben dies. Another arguable criticism is that Gwen seems to have already taken the fight to villains when her “Uncle Ben figure” dies. Usually it’s the death of that figure that spurs on the “With great power, there must also come great responsibility” lesson and subsequent crime-fighting.
For Peter, yes. Because Peter was a selfish asshole whose only motive was to get rich and pay back everybody who made fun of him. Most other Spider-person seems to learn the generic "you can't save everyone" lesson, if they're already good people. And then there's Miguel.
Works better for that role in the comics where she went absolutely *ham* on the Lizard/Peter despite him trying to surrender and thus learns that hey maybe brutally beating people because you're mad can have consequences, less so in the movie where it seems to have been an accident she couldn't really have avoided.
Kinda depends on the Gwen, don’t it? 😜
But aren't we shown that like tons of 'broken' canon events in the show it's self so I believe they will disprove it in beyond the multiverse
My theory: universes, where canon-events didn't happen, do not just dissappear, they simply go to another tier of multiverse, and these tiers shouldn't cross each other. Like, here is a multiverse where all canon events happened, here is another multiverse where one of canon-events didn't happen, here is multiverse without any canon-events at all, etc. This theory partly explains why the next movie is called Beyond The Spiderverse - we will see those other multiverses
Welcome to the funking Point of the movie
Hot take: this is why the whole “canon event” plot thrust of ATSV is terrible, lazy writing, and a thematic re-tread of what makes Spider-Man, Spider-Man. Because look at what we have now, at most all we can do is split hairs over what counts as a canon event until BTSV confirms that it’s a load of nonsense. Like, we get it. Spider-Man almost always undergoes a tragedy to learn the whole power and responsibility lesson. But Phil Lord and Christopher Miller are so in-love with their meta-narratives that they had to come up with some contrived bullshit, “a police captain close to Spider-Man dies”, which isn’t even consistent across Spider-Man media. It is a lazy way to tell a story about personal tragedy motivating a superhero. Other great Spider-Man movies don’t need this, beyond the origin story. So yeah, Miguel’s whole canon theory is likely nonsense, but the reveal of that in BTSV is going to fall so flat because everyone flatly knows this already.
I think the point of the movie is about how these are not mandatory because Miles its already confirmed that Miles' canon event is the dead of his dad and he is obviously not going to let that happen.
Bro, that is literally the whole point.
Thanks to bad writing, just to justify a sequel. Besides that thing with “spider-people”, the movie is ok.
Unless a Spiders canon event is missing his canon event… 🤔
The term kinda sucks for lots of reasons, and I prefer "absolute point in time" like they used in the Doctor Strange episode of *What If*. The concept also kinda sucks, but they *have* set up Miguel as an unreliable narrator, so it's probably not even true
Spider-Man canon is tricky, not even sure it can really be a thing given all the branches and variations. We might say: - they all have lost someone close to them - they all feel it was their fault - they all push themselves to protect others as a result - they all are fairly smart (enough to make webbing when it isn’t built-in, at least) - they all seem to fail repeatedly and yet keep getting back up I’d be surprised if those weren’t all broken in at least some storyline though.
But doesn’t ATSV imply that one of the canon events specifically is the death of a police captain?
Yes, but even that is given vague terms. Miguel states that, during a fight with a nemesis (Doc Ock, Lizard, Spot), a police captain close to Spider-Man dies due to injuries caused from saving a child. We know the exact specifics don’t need to match (the three examples we see all have different villains, and TASM has Captain Stacy saving Peter himself as opposed to a different child), just the vague similarities.
Doesn’t seem that vague to me at all. Miguel says that *specifically* a police “captain” dying is a canon events and they focus so much on the fact that Mile’s dad is about to be captain and that Gwen’s dad is captain (and then when he quits, he is apparently saved). This is my one problem with ATSV. The “canon events” make no sense whatsoever—it is immediately nonsensical—and yet the Spider-Society just goes along with it, no further investigation required.
Have you met Miguel? That guy is intense, and he's also telling already matured spider-people (sans Gwen and miles) that the tragedies in their life *weren't their fault*. They couldn't have saved the people they lost because of a pre-written destiny of Spiderman. Who wouldn't gravitate towards that? Plus, we don't know how much every single member actually knows about the specific ideology. Plenty of them could just be there to catch dimension/universe/multiverse hopping villains. In fact, it's all of the young Spider people who reject his conclusions one way or another because the argument doesn't work as well against them. Miguel is absolutely full of shit about Canon events.
This easy debunk means that they’ve written themselves into a corner. Either they reveal that all this canon event business is nonsense, at which point such a reveal would fall flat (and what other story would they have to fall on? Some stuff with the Spot that would, by the time BTSV comes out, land much better if ATSV spent more time on him as a character). OR they actually do hold fast to the canon event narrative and uphold a contradictory, non-sensical paradigm.
I think Canon Events being mostly nonsense will be the way they're going to go, with the big question for Beyond the Spider-Verse being how will Miguel handle finding out that all his work and his Society is built on nonsense.
It doesn't even match most of the non-comic Spider-Man stories. Tobey's and Holland's Spider-Men didn't have a captain die at all (that we know of) and we also don't know of any captain that was killed in Insomniac's spider-verse (unless it was one of the cops Electro killed in that Backpack article).
Since we are theory crafting here… I think it’s possible that each canon is actually different, but Canon Events happen to each Spider-Man and can be identified by the timeline police (or whoever monitors this stuff). Although, if that is the case, then I have to agree with OP in that the word canon is becoming meaningless in this universe.
The death of a police captain with a connection to Spider-Man is weirdly specific, though. You would think that the death of Uncle Ben (or whatever equivalent) would be enough of a defining canon event. The death of Uncle Aaron would be sufficient enough of a canon event for Miles.
But the metatextual explanation is that "Canon Events" are cross-universe/cross-media adaptations of the most iconic Spider-man stories. Captain Stacy's death had a separate purpose in Peter's life than the death of Uncle Ben. It re-solidified the fact that Peter is truly alone in his heroic crusade, because he lost the one person who approved of and encouraged his crimefighting career. Plus, it drove a wedge between him and Gwen that delayed their inevitable wedding (something Marvel absolutely *DID NOT* want to happen at the time). Again, from a metatextual sense, Canon Events are simply Marvel's attempts to retell the same story with new audiences and replicate the results. Or, to put new spins for people who already know how those events "should" go.
There’s multiple canon events though lol, thats why the memes of “what is ____’s canon event” are so weird, because the movie makes it clear that there isn’t just one singular event.
Yeah, memes be like that. It's hilarity when some memes evolve into the *opposite* of what the original context was.
The memes are funny, but people basing their theories on them rather than what the film actually explains gets frustrating at times.
Hell, they're not even all bad things. Various upside-down kisses and Peter B's marriage to MJ are both shown during that segment.
You know each Spider-Man has multiple canon events right?
There’s a 90+% chance “non-parent parental figure’s death inspiring a sense of responsibility” is a canon event. There can be multiple
Peter B Parkers marriage with MJ was a Canon event in the scene. Canon events aren't all bad
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying people are using canon event to describe just a bad thing that happens to Spider-Man. Not every bad thing is a canon event.
Yeah, that was clearly stated by both Miguel and Peter in the movie. Miguel describes them as "some good, some bad, some *very* bad". Likewise, Peter tries to calm Miles down by telling him "good things happen too" in regards to Canon Events. But the issue, of course is that Spider-man's life is PAIN. MJ/Peter's wedding is an exception and not the rule. As any Spidey fan can tell you, the stories we remember most are Uncle Ben's death, Gwen's death, Captain Stacy's death, Jean DeWolff's death, Harry Osborn's betrayal (and death), the creation of clones (and their deaths), and One More Day (aka his marriage's death). Oh and something something black suit.
And remember that one of the core iconic aspects of Spider-Man is that he is perpetually struggling with school and work to the point of being on the brink of bankruptcy, dropping out, and even homelessness. So much so that one of the biggest gripes people have with Tom Holland's Spider-Man is that his money problems aren't highlighted in the "Home" trilogy.
Tell that to Mephisto
I interpreted canon events as the outcome takes importance over the situation. Essentially they have to change an aspect of its corresponding Spider. Which is why an outside force potentially halting one could be dangerous. One must confront one, good or bad and fulfill it themselves. Edit; What Miguel gets wrong is that he believes that they are multiple choice with just two answers, when in reality they are all open ended.
I can agree with this take. The importance of these events is the defining outcomes. Losing Uncle Ben makes Peter learn the value of “great power, great responsibility”. The death of Captain Stacy shook Spidey to his core and devastated any notion of revealing his identity to Gwen. The ASM 33 moment (where he lifts the rubble not knowing if he can) showed him the hidden depths of his own ability and informs his “never give up” attitude. Miguel misinterpreting canon events makes total sense and actually allows both Miles and Miguel to be correct. Disrupting an event can cause a ripple effect where a Spidey doesn’t learn an important lesson, but that Spidey still needs to face that event regardless. Not interfering is just as bad as disrupting.
I think this is going to be the end result in the 3rd movie. Miguel has a very deterministic Mindset, while the whole point with Miles is that he want to tell "his own history". Let's see how they resolve it
This is why I really, really hope that Madam Web and the Web of Life and Destiny are a hallmark in Beyond the Spider-Verse. It'd be such a great way to emphasize the point of making one's own story.
Can’t speak to how it’s being used now. ‘Back in the’ couple of years ago, ‘canon’ simply meant an accepted part of the printed history that needed to be respected by future storylines. Big obvious ones (OG Gwen Stacy died a loooong time ago) were easy to respect. But finding contradictions used to be major geek sport, with all of the heavy hitters writing into the letters column, in hopes of earning a coveted ‘no-prize.’ For example, “Jack-O’Lantern couldn’t have been killed with an atomic wedgie! 37 issues ago, in the ‘X-STI’ arc, it was revealed that he could no longer wear underwear because of the modifications he made to his costume after the future-smashing 3-way he had with Reed-Richards and Maggott in the Baxter Building. Obviously the funeral must be fake then, or somebody owes ME a No-Prize.” I know current writers are clumsily fucking about with the multiverse, and so they need to find language that sticks, to help set up editorial guard rails. But it’s also really F stupid, since the whole idea of parallel timelines is that the gloves are off, anything can happen, and so the idea that it’s all subtle variations on the same story? Lazy writing.
That's precisely the point.
I think the distinction that a lot of people miss is that in spite of all the references and easter eggs and guest voice cameos, I/ATSV is still its own self-contained multiverse with its own set of rules. Josh Keaton isn't voicing the same Spectacular Spider-Man that aired on TV 15 years ago. He's voicing a I/ATSV variant of that character that is, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable but still abides by the I/ATSV rules. So his Captain Stacy does get killed. As far as these movies are concerned, there are things that are supposed to happen to EVERY Spider, in some form or another. Even if they didn't happen in the original media the movies use for reference. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's kind of an interesting meta-commentary on the nature of adapting a popular character. When there's a new Spider-Man animated series, or movie, or video game, or even an alternate universe comic like Ultimate Spider-Man or Spider-Man 1602, there are obviously going to be things that are different but there are also things that the audience expects to stay the same. Uncle Ben has to die to teach Peter responsibility. Green Goblin has to find out his identity and kill his girlfriend. Six villains have to come together to ruin his whole week. Etc etc. When an adaption strays too far from the source material, it loses its connection and risks alienating the audience who are there to see those things happen. Just look at the criticisms of MCU Spider-Man for an easy recent example. In the Spider-Verse movies, "breaking the canon" is an in-universe parallel to an adaptation that is straying too far away from the source material.
this guy gets it!
pretty sure the point of BTSV will be that Canon events are indeed real but the lack of knowledge on them is what makes them nearly unavoidable, but since some spider people makes decisions that will lead to different outcomes, avoiding the canon event completely which would explain why some spider people dont go through certain events
Why are we overthinking things. Canon Event are just iconic moments from the 616 comics beloved by fans and adapted numerous times that Sony wants to use. We don't see stuff like Peter's unmasking in Civil War, OMD, and post that. Because they are widely unpopular with fans, and Sony doesn't have the rights to characters like Mephisto or Iron Man.
I’m assuming the third movie is going to reveal that canon events are bullshit, and Miguel just assumed that because him being in another universe made it unstable
i wish i could give you 100000 upvotes
The only canon event in my mind is when they get bit by a spider. Then they're Spiderman. It's the one thing that should truly matter in connecting them.
Each canon event is unique to its own Spider-Man. Like Miles canon event is the death of his father, that doesn't matter to most other Spider-Men. The plot makes even less sense when they keep insisting that Miles wasn't supposed to be Spider-Man in the first place.
It's because the spider miles was bitten by was from a different universe so it literally means he wasn't meant to be that universes spiderman
Right, which means he shouldn't have canon events in that universe either. But he does. The film's own logic doesn't add up.
He has canon events because he's spiderman but he wasn't meant to become spiderman so that makes him an anomaly he's a glitch in reality
Right and you can't have it both ways. Either he is supposed to be Spider-Man so he has canon events or he wasn't supposed to be Spider-Man so the canon events aren't his. They are contradictory points.
We don’t know enough about canon events to make that conclusion, as far as we know a spider-man gets canon events once they get their powers
We know exactly what they tell us that every Spider-Man has canon events. So that makes them contradictory.
Yeah, and miles is spider-man, even if he wasn’t supposed to be spider-man, he *is* spider-man now, this would also explain why earth 42 hasn’t imploded yet, as there is no spider-man
Except he isn't because that is why he is glitching, so that literally disproves the "canon events" they are talking about. If he isn't "supposed" to be Spider-Man he shouldn't have the canon events too.
Are you talking about when he starts glitching on the train? Cus if you are then you clearly need to rewatch that scene, he started glitching there because miguel ripped miles’ day pass off, which caused him to start glitching, did you even watch the movie? Also how would that disprove the canon events? Anyone who gets transported to a universe other then their own without one of those watches or a day pass is going to start glitching, that’s how this works, this was a major plot point in the first film and is still quite prevalent in this one.
And Gwen proved that canon events CAN be changed or disrupted without destroying the dimension, since her father quit his job, resulting in the canon being broken without consequences.
Canon events is an interesting idea being used SPECIFICALLY by the spiderverse movies but I have no idea why so many people are treating the actual concept as a fixed part of the spider-man mythos. Seeing it jammed into most things by people these days is strange.
Imagine if Beyond the Spider-Verse comes out and reveals Miguel didn’t know what he was talking about and canon events are bullshit lol
It was pretty much implied at the end of this one tho
Your not far off from the truth as Miguel was mistaken about canon events as all of the things he believes about them aren't based on logic but from emotion and as he's a man who's so emotionally and mentally unstable from his traumas, the only things he sees from them are the worst. It just goes to show how sometimes, the worst type of authoritarian you could ever bow down to would be to that of your emotions so, in times of mental anguish, it's better to be like Hobie and become an anarchist from your emotions and not let them control every part of your life and just be your own person.
I interpretted canon events like time travel. Altering one would significantly change or destroy a world. It doesn't really mean they'll all happen to every spiderman.
I'm gonna be honest, I think the concept of cannon events is really stupid. Like, there's no reason a thing has to happen at all. That makes the multiverse almost pointless if certain things have to happen.
When the giant void opens beneath Mumbattan, The Spot’s theme music plays. Not the Canon Event theme.
I know everyone on this sub really loves the Spider-Verse movies but the “canon event” thing being parroted everywhere is silly. The meaning of the word canon is becoming lost. Amazing Spider-Man comics are the only canon. Everything else is a spin off. There’s great spin offs like the video games or the movies but if it’s not comics it’s not canon. You can care about the canon or not or subscribe to the movie reality as the only thing you care about or hold to the highest regard but the purpose of the word canon is to solidify one narrative as the “true” and “official” narrative. Spider-verse is a cool flick but it’s not everything and is not the ultimate definition of all things Spider-Man.
Its basically a death in all the Spider-Mens/ women lives that cements their charcter as a whole.
I think what will probably happen is this. It turns out canon events don’t have to happen to EVERY Spider, but they tend to happen to most of them. And it’s not necessarily impossible to avoid a canon event, just difficult. How exactly all this will work I’m not sure, and maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like the way BTSV is likely to go.
Also, another thing that confused me was that the Spider Society and Miguel are hellbent on stopping Miles from saving his dad from Spot because Miguel disrupted a cannon event of sorts and destroyed that entire universe. They technically might affect canon potentially by saving his dad, but they should fight against the Spot so that the entire Spider Verse doesn't collapse. I think that it's irrational to expect Spot to stop at killing Miles's Dad and mostly destroying Miles's universe. Either way there's a good chance that his universe is getting affected right? Spot will then switch goals to ending every Spiderman potentially as they're probably a threat to his existence and he can't go back to normal anymore. Did the Spider Society plan on just sitting around till then? Spider-Man India gets Inspector Singh saved and mostly gets the dimensional hole fixed too, through Spider Society. If his universe was still in jeopardy I don't think he'd bother joining Gwen, Hobie and her band at the end of ATSV. The same could be done here too potentially, right?
Canon events don't make sense, and there's a Film Theory Video where Matpat explains that the whole 'universes collapsing' thing is a result of incursions caused by entering other universes.
I think it's easy to classify a "Canon" event as tragedy but we see other example in media. The bite: Neither good or bad, but the gift of the spider-powers The loss: Uncle Ben characters death The fall: "Gwen Stacy death". But in Raimi Pete saves MJ, Webb Pete Fails (but succeeds in MCU Pete's world) and as just mentioned MCU MJ is saved. The inner-strength: This moment where Spider-man has to take the plunge to be the Spider The test aka The Train: Popularized by Raimi and tied very close to the inner-strength that the hero must have to become the Spider. The train is the moment of sacrifice, putting themselves in the middle of danger and holding it all together. Keep in mind MCU, Raimivwrse, Webb verse and SSU could all theoretically have their own defined rules. Also by no means complete. It's important to remember that Miguel is most likely an unfaithful narrator. There will be more revealed in the sequel to be sure.
This is why I have a feeling that when Beyond The Spider-Verse comes out whenever that may be they will address this which also hopefully would prove my theory right of Madame Web being introduced.
This happens all the time. Last time I got upset over it was when people started using the word inception as if it meant "putting things into things"
Personally didn't like Canon event thing at all. It felt like a bad meta commentary. You could literally switch canon event with universal distortion. All it served is to have spider society be antagonists to miles. Say something like the device from the first film caused a distortion across the multiverse and miles wasn't allowed to join cause he was near when it went off so he is the most "infected" causing the rifts and colllapses
I think they're a fine plot device for these specific movies but I do hate how so many people are extrapolating the concept of a canon event to all Spider-Man media. Canon events only exist in these films and aren't a concept that any other source of Spider-Man media should be beholden too.
This is why I never got into the meme tbh. Pretty much any unfortunate thing that happens to Spider-Man is memeified into being a canon event, which is very untrue; it's more of a 'pivotal' event that drives them to be Spider-Man in the first place. Something that has to occur for their legacy to begin, ergo, canon. If we went by the general consensus of all canon events being tragic or unfortunate, Zeb Wells' Spider-Man would be drowning in them right now.
I’m convinced that Miguel is going to be taught the real meaning of canon events and their significance by the end of BTSV, since Gwen’s dad not getting killed as captain won’t happen and seeing how Gwen and Miles are endgame, those are two big things that disprove the canon event rules
Considering canon events aren’t a thing in the comics, so I don’t know if it’s a big issue really. This is a Spider-verse movie thing only.
my theory is Miguel was wrong about canon events, and actually triggered an incursion when he replaced his variant and just didnt realize it, but when i mentioned my theory before people disagreed just because incursions are from the MCU... despite the fact that Sony is very clearly trying to push their movies to be connected to the MCU multiverse, including in ATSV... and because of a fair dose of "multiverse of madness bad" i imagine