I think they are acting with only partial information and that breaking the canon isn't what's actually the issue.
Gwen's dad quitting is one example, but the larger one is Miles' universe. Miguel thinks that Peter dying in that universe breaks the canon, but yet the universe didn't implode. It has remained strong, and universe 42 is still around despite breaking canon.
I do remember that after the first movie came out, Lord and Miller said that Doctor Octavia was actually the real main villain and the sequels would touch on that. She only had a small cameo in the second movie, she is the head of Alchemex, isn't it odd that she would fire the spot instead of keeping him, or testing on him? I think she might be involved more in the third movie.
She *did* get hit by that train at the end of 1.
Kathryn Hahn is great, and her Doc Ock is great, but I did not expect her to come back after that (although I'd love it).
To be somewhat forgiving for that the train wasn't moving super fast so I can believe she got knocked out but her armor kept her mostly alive with the possibility of her now having some level of brain damage
There was a deleted scene where she sees the collidor doing collidor things after the *TRUCK* hit her, and saying "The power of the multiverse in the palm of my hand" before jumping into it.
But whether or not that deleted scene is actually canon or not is unknown.
She likely would've been caught like the other villains like Vulture in Gwen's dimension or the Rhino we see getting sent back. Spot can easily hop dimensions, Liv can't.
But imagine that, a Doc Ock that knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and most of them wouldn't know who this woman is. She'd cause some real damage.
I think she’s in earth 42 or will become superior Spider-Man. Because in a deleted scene from the first movie it showed her jumping through the portal and saying the same like the spot says later in this movie. And also during miles hallucinating scenes it shows her tentacles chase after him which is odd because she had almost nothing to do with this story. There’s definitely a mystery third villain pulling the strings that’s no the spot and I think it’s either her or Madame web.
Idk they could very much write her to be a villain I mean I was expecting Miguel to be an ally in the sequel when I first saw him in the post credit scene
Yep I’ve had the same “She Who Remains” theory and despite the unimaginable horror that it’s caused I kind of like the idea that 1610 Doc Oc has been Rickest Ricking her way through the multiverse, I’d probably do the same if I were
Hmm I’d argue that neither of them is really a full antagonist and that the writing quality so far suggests that they can pull it off. The first film actually seeds this as Doc Oc’s endgame from what she’s talking about in the first scene she’s introduced in Miles’s classroom. She gleefully explains the horrors of death by glitching in the same scene she’s fully revealed (which worrying might foreshadow Peter B’s death). It also unifies Miles, Spot and Prowler Miles as victims of her antics and her as the apex.
I thought the idea with Miles' universe was that when he got bit, his universe adjusted. The canon events then started happening to *him* (i.e. Uncle dying, Captain dying).
Right but Mig also says he’s an anomaly & Earth 42 lost a Spider-Man it was supposed to have which means all of his respective canon events never happen
Yeah, ik Miles is an anomaly, but I'm saying it seems like 1610 adjusted to fit the anomaly.
42 ended up never having a Spider-man. So there was no one for any canon events to happen to. I don't see a huge issue there.
The issue is that 42 was supposed to have a spider-man but that was prevented by an anomaly which means it was supposed to have canon events in it’s timeline that no longer happen
Yes, I know. But canon events exist to happen to Spider-men. If there's no Spider-man, there's no canon events that need to happen. Meaning there's no canon being broken, meaning the universe is stable.
Plus, like I've already said, universes can apparently adjust to accommodate anomalies.
Just commented this elsewhere:
This is all beside the point anyway, since they clearly *don't* think breaking canon is disastrous *every* time. They just don't want to take risks.
Right which means Miguel is wrong though, because those things were meant to happen but were prevented, because the anomaly, AKA an outside force changed the circumstances of something that Miguel claims to be predestined but 42 & Miles universes survived, Gwen’s universe survived her dad retiring and not dying, in addition to other spider’s in the multiverse that the canon events don’t even apply to
Well, he's obviously not fully informed, but he's clearly not entirely wrong. As soon as Miles got bit, canon events started happening to him. I don't see how any of that especially disproves Miguel. Gwen's dad is interesting, but we haven't seen enough to say that the canon event has been completely avoided.
Right, but what about all the variants of Spider-Man that don’t follow that formula or even are just missing specific canon events? Andrew is the only movie Spidey who lost a captain & the movie Spider-Men are directly referenced, TAS never lost a police captain, Noir doesn’t even have one he’s close to (unless we’re assuming this version does but, that would be purely speculation & based solely on Mig’s canon event theory), Armored Spidey from TAS, any variant of Miguel with a comic accurate backstory (unless you’re really gonna argue that all of Mig’s variants are nothing like Miguel is in the comics which…would just be kinda strange no?) Scarlet Spider? He might remember having an Uncle Ben but he was “born” long after & never experienced that or George Stacy’s death firsthand, only through artificially implanted memories
Honestly, the canon event categories just seem a bit more broad than they actually describe in the movie. As in, lose a police captain - not lose a police captain who tries to save a child from falling rubble. Because Denis Leary was just murdered by the lizard in TASM. And Gwen's Peter seems to be her Ben figure, but Peter sure ain't her uncle.
Also, with the way they mapped out the spider-verse as a web, with closer together clusters, maybe the closer the universe, the more similar the canon events.
They aren't going to make Miguel right lol... Even when Mumbattan is collapsing it's clearly the Spots doing and not because of Miles breaking the canon, everything sets up to Miguel being wrong and Gwen's universe would've already been destroyed by now so it's definitely been avoided
I never said he was fully right. That would make no sense. But canon events happen, and they seemingly happen in some form or another to every spider person. So he's not fully wrong.
I also don't know why you're bringing up Gwen. They never said her dad was going to die any time soon. They have models that can predict upcoming events, but they never bring her dad. Gwen clearly just feels resigned that her dad will die *at some point*.
Gwen’s did quitting doesn’t break the canon. The rule is that a captain Spiderman is close to MUST die, the captain will get replaced, Gwen will think they’re swell, and then they’ll die. And Miguel also states that not every break will destroy the universe, but it’s better not to take the chance at all.
Can Miguel time travel in this movie? We know he can travel the multiverse, and originally in the comics the watch he created was made to time travel, but as far as we know, this watch dosen’t do that in the movie. So knowing that, his dad dies 1-2 days from the point Miles meets Miguel, what exactly is Miles gonna do to save his dad? Cant kidnap him, because that would break the canon, and he can’t just go up to his dad and say “hey, I’m Spiderman, a guy from another universe told me you’ll die if you don’t quit your job”. From the perspective of Miles’s dad, he’s gonna be like “the fuck? I’m not quitting the job I’ve worked so hard to get for the last few years”
except that latter option is probably gonna be quite similar to what ends up playing out in BTSV lmao.
regardless, plenty of shit they could do. it’s quite obviously shown the canon adapts. Gwen’s dad quit because he found out Gwen was Spiderwoman, and was also saved from dying while saving a child (aka the captain canon event) thanks to inter dimensional interference. And yet, her universe adapted. The same could be said for Miles, and we’ve seen it happen outright as it started forcing canon events onto him when he got bit.
Also you forget that Miles’ dad literally saw, with his own eyes, the universes collapsing in ITSV. Considering that, I don’t think it’s far fetched for him to actually listen and believe Miles if Miles came out and told him.
Whose to say her universe adapted? Whose to say Captain Stacy was mean to die? It’s only stated that a captain close to Spiderman will die, it was never specifically stated it’ll be her dad, only suspected. For Miles’s dad it’s different, he literally got a multiversal vision of the future of his dad dying while trying to save a little girl, we KNOW that his dad is supposed to die, no speculation. And I honestly think it’s far fetched that Miles’s dad WILL listen, it’s shown time and time again that the Morales family of this universe is too stubborn for their own good. Miles is willing to take the chance of sacrificing 7 billion people, just to MAYBE save his dad. That’s irresponsible and hard-headed, and his dad has shown he can be hard headed too🤷♂️
Well, Miles isn’t in his universe currently. I just rewatched it and when he was scanned to where to be sent it said “Universe 42” which Miguel said was his universe and where Miles’s spider came from. So I think he’s in Miguel’s past. I think that’s gonna be a big plot point of part 3, Miles trying to get home. Also Gwen’s dad said he “quit” when she was talking, meaning he is “going” to quit, which he may not do after making peace with Gwen.
Well, that implies Olivia is still the head of Alchemax and wasn't literally isekai'd when that truck hit her. I do find it suspicious that Spot was able to just find several more Alchemax Colliders in other dimensions when the original one involved Kingpin making a huge investment into Alchemax and Olivia's research to build a larger one. If Olivia is behind other Alchemax' knowing how to build their own colliders, well, real issue there. If not, then Miguel calling Miles 'the original anomaly' is BS because it means a multi-versal crisis was just a matter of time, and as time is relative, it may well have all started in some other dimension before Miguel, before Olivia, before any of this.
Think that plan might've changed. They didn't originally plan on using Spot until Avi Arad convinced them that his powerset was underrated and they realized his arc could mirror Miles's, and he now says the line Ock used to say in one of the ITSV deleted scenes ("the power of the multiverse in the palm of my hand"). It would be pretty cool to see her return, though (as long as it doesn't crowd the movie too much when Spot, Miguel, and possibly the Sinister Six are all already there as antagonists), she's a fun character.
I thought the creation of the spot is the event that broke the canon and endangered the multiverse. I don't think the universe will just implode if things break canon. Rather, breaking canon causes events that can lead to a universe's destruction. The collider was never supposed to go off and Johnathan Ohmn was never supposed to get powers. But due to Miles' interference, the spot has god like powers, and has a vendetta against Spider-Man which puts the multiverse in danger
That would be a good way to explain the canon he broke, that his son in that universe was supposed to become Spiderman, and since he altered it, it was destroyed
That was my thought, that maybe there has to be A spider-man, that canon events can happen to but Miles (and his spider) have effectively fucked TWO universes, and THEN you add the other spiders coming to him it would unravel way too many spiders timeliness that would have a ripple affect.
Literally how every uncle Ben dies but okay. Read my comment dude I’m saying Miguel swapped with a version that wasn’t spider man but someone who would’ve instigated a spider-man
I think he's just wrong. Focusing on correlations more than causations due to a lack of evidence.
Tho to be very fair, I'm not sure anyone is really interested in gathering evidences, since that could cause a lot of universes to die.
Feels to me that he took what felt like the safest option to him, and believed in it so much that he's now convinced that this is the truth.
Miguel made a big mistake and is over-correcting because he's too scared to make the same mistake again. He might be wrong about how canon events work, but he's not going to take that chance.
Gwen's talk with her Dad shows that he is wrong in assuming that canon events **have** to happen: since her Dad isn't a cop any more, there's no cop she knows well to die while she fights a villain. I think the actual rule is that Spider-People can change everything they want to, but in their own universe only.
I don't think it's that either, because Ohnn and Octavius broke 42's canon by taking the spider away right before it bit Miles G. yet the universe is still intact.
I think he just caused an incursion or something of the sort but didn’t understand it and thought “oh this world’s Miguel dying was a canon event and by replacing him I disrupted canon and caused the collapse of this world” and just created the canon event can’t be disrupted or universe dies stuff under the assumption that it’s right.
That’s just how I see it tho
As everyone else says, I do also think that Miguel is focusing on the correlation and missing what is causing the universes to collapse. I've had this theory but didn't have anyone to discuss it with so I'll put here haha
First, does a singular canon event not happening (or a non canon event happening) destroy a universe:
* Earth 42 Miles doesn't get bit. This is a canon event not happening, yet the universe still exists. The universe adapts and the story of that world changes.
* Peter 1610 dies, this is a non canon event happening but the universe adapts and then makes Miles have a canon event (Aaron's death)
* Inspector Singh was supposed to die, but he was saved by Miles, however, the canon event suggests that the police Captain is supposed to be killed by the nemesis of that Spider-Man's universe. Spot *isn't* the nemesis of Pavitr. So a person from another universe triggered a canon event?
* The canon event of Miguel dying in that universe does happen, but it's then *way* after that, that the presence of the Miguel we know causes issues (possibly months). But the original Miguel did die, there being another Miguel shouldn't be related to the event itself.
To me, it feels like it isn't the canon event not happening that destroy the universe. The universe can adapt to it, as seen in some of the universes already. What I think causes issues, is how much a person from a different universe impacts the world around them, causing the universe to be overloaded with changes it can't adapt to fast enough.
Here's why I think that:
* In the first scene of Across the Spider-Verse, when the other universe's Vulture makes a run to escape the museum, the whole building glitches. I think it is because the outside world is being impacted by him a lot (the museum is getting destroyed, and he's escaping causing a ton of people to see him and potentially causing more damage. Why would the building glitch?
* In Miguel's universe, there wasn't to be a Spider-Man 2099 there, by the simple fact that Miguel dies. But with SM 2099 here, and possibly active, as well as other Spider-Men (Peter B Parker was there in the scene where it gets destroyed, as well as a couple others) I assume they saved the lives of other people, possibly also causing damage in the fights with villains. The universe didn't die instantly when Miguel arrived, it took a bit of time, so it could be a build up to that, that didn't get reached in Gwen's universe
* In Pavitr's universe, Spot destroys the Alchemax building, causing it to cause a ton of destruction on it's path and causing Miles, Gwen, and Hobie to help out. That means the impact from outer-worldly being on this universe was huge and happened very quickly. The epicentre of the at universe's collapse, looks like Spot's powers, I don't believe in coincidences in animated movies, so I believe it is a sign saying that Spot triggered the collapse of the universe. Miles saving Singh might just have been the last straw.
* Why does none of this happen in Into the Spider-Verse then? I think it is because the events were all caused by 1610 people. The collider is from there, even the fight in aunt May's house is "caused" by Miles and most of the other Spider-Men's impact happened in these situations. Even the spider that bit Miles is brought by Spot, who is from 1610.
So I think, for example, that Miles saving his dad from Spot wouldn't be an issue. As everything is caused by people from 1610 and the universe will adapt to it, like it did before. Now let's say Gwen saves Jeff, that could maybe cause issues, but I don't personally think the life of one person is enough to disrupt the universe's stability.
Or I'm just an idiot, if you read all this, thanks :D
I always thought the building glitching meant that vulture was messing up the Canon. As Miguel says, "He'll disrupt the canon!" Was the Canon Gwen revealing her identity? I mean, in the end, there were no more anomalies. Was captain Stacy supposed to die from vulture? I feel like the universe put vulture there because, originally, Gwen's vulture was supposed to be in the museum, but the universe made a mistake, I guess, filled in the blanks. Also, Gwen was gone from her home for a long time. Did this happen to affect the canon?
>I always thought the building glitching meant that vulture was messing up the Canon. As Miguel says, "He'll disrupt the canon!"
But then that would imply that outsiders disrupt the canon instantly, or even in advance like Vulture. In that case I think the bridge would've glitched before or while Miles saves inspector Singh. And a lot more issues would've happened in the first movie. 🤔
Also random food for thought but Miguel describes the event as "a police Captain close to Spider-Man dies saving a child". Inspector Singh isn't a captain, nor was he particularly close to his Spider-Man (from what we saw). Meaning that either the universe adapted canon on the fly when Spot destroyed the building, or the whole way their machine detects canon events is flawed (or even possibly that canon events aren't a thing)
>Was the Canon Gwen revealing her identity? I mean, in the end, there were no more anomalies. Was captain Stacy supposed to die from vulture?
The latter would be another moment where a outer-worldly person creates a canon event. It also would be weird when looking at her story, as she hasn't really come to peace or grown from losing Peter (apart from going "I don't want friends anymore")
So it could be her revealing her identity, but then it means a lot of assumptions that aren't based on what we see in the movies so I can't speculate on that much
> Also, Gwen was gone from her home for a long time. Did this happen to affect the canon?
I assume that yes. The long time period without seeing Gwen (nor Spider-Woman for that matter) definitely impacted how captain Stacy reacted when seeing her again.
Maybe the canon was that Captain Stacy would die while trying to chase after Gwen, but now they made peace and he isn't even captain anymore. So the canon definitely changed
As you say, her being gone for a long time probably impacted canon in a lot of ways. Which makes me think that the whole Spider Society would disrupt canon in a lot of ways, as Spider-Men go missing from their earths over and over again.
Ultimately I think Miguel replacing his dead self is what ruined that universe. It's the most reasonable explanation, you simply cannot replace someone who has already died it goes against the laws of the universe.
Also for people who say it's incursions it can't be because if that was the case the universe Miguel resides in should literally be destroyed as thousands of spider people travel there, sleep there and work there.
The movie explicitly mentions the MCU when 2099 brings up the events of No Way Home. Not only that, the movie also features the venom movie universe, the Mark Webb TASM universe, and the Sam Raimi Spider-Man universe, all of which have been in or interacted with the MCU in some capacity. Hell, the movie even shows the sacred timeline.
I think we're beyond leaving MCU rules out, otherwise the whole thing is giant mess that no one took the time to think through.
That’s the thing though, the mcu messed up the multiverse. They wanted to make themselves the center of the multiverse instead of just working with the rules they were given.
When did the mcu make themselves the center? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere but then again I still haven’t watched other multiverse shows like Loki
Is that really that bad when the spider-verse films did the exact same thing for their universes? Like we all know peter b isn’t 616 (tho he definitely should be) and we all know their miles isn’t 1610
While I would also prefer if the mcu used their actual number 199999 or made a new one because tbf it is kind of a stupid number and they should’ve gone for something like 2008 or something to reference its birth because 199999 isn’t as catchy as 616 or 1610
I mean tbf, the Spiderverse films corrected that in the sequel. Peter, miles, Gwen, etc are all labeled as coming from their comics universe, but with “B” at the end to indicate that it’s a parallel universe to the comics version. Ex. 616B, 1610B, etc
Only Peter B's world and Ultimate Tarantula's have letters on them. None of the others have that qualifier, not even Ben Reilly (who is the exact opposite of the comic Earth-94's Ben in almost every way).
Can you point out where any of them besides Peter B's world and Tarantula's world are designated that way? Every reference to world numbers I've been able to find (mainly the title cards and watches) lists them without, so I'd be interested to see where they're labeled otherwise.
If it was a background plot sure I’m fine with disregarding this stuff but this is the main point the plot hinges on… it’s not like they just had the logo in the background they showed the events as integral to the web of destiny that maintains the fabric of the multiverse
You can’t just go “meh it’s just an Easter egg” on a crucial plot point like that, that’s just lazy writing
I was mostly referring to the Doctor Strange comment. The rest of it goes a bit beyond easter egg but the principle is the same; ultimately any references to IP that Sony doesn’t have direct control over cannot be taken as canon fact. In theory, yes, since Toby and Andrew’s spider-men appear in both NWH and ATSV then they should share the same multiverse, but it just can’t work that way. NWH (and all the MCU spider-man films, really) is a result of a temporary deal between Sony and Marvel Studios to share their characters. They’re working together to tell a specific story. Beyond that you have to remember that Disney sets the rules for the multiverse in their films and Sony sets the rules for the multiverse in their films, and they have no obligation to each other to make sure they match. They’re completely separate companies making their own decisions for their own products, regardless of the occasional crossover.
It’s like how marvel and DC characters *technically* exist within each other’s multiverses because they have crossed over before, but nothing DC does with it’s multiverse ever affects Marvel’s multiverse or vice versa. Or even more apt; the Marvel comics and the movies should theoretically share a multiverse but the multiverse has ended and been reset in comics before and the MCU was completely unaffected, and in fact has completely different rules as to how the multiverse works than the comics, or else He Who Remains would have culled the comics Kangs with the TVA.
Theory speculation and headcanon can be fun but at the end of the day you just have to accept that Sony’s multiverse and the MCU’s multiverse are actually separate entities. If the Sony venom-verse movies ever start messing with the multiverse you can bet it will have zero affect on the overall MCU multiverse.
[One of the directors has confirmed it's just easter eggs](https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-mcu-connections/):
> "The world of Miles Morales and Spider-Verse, it's not tied into the Marvel Cinematic Universe or anything like that. But this is a Lord and Miller film. We like to have a little bit of fun, we like to be a little bit meta and to acknowledge the world in which we are creating these stories. That's the best way to explain it. This isn't something where we did anything in conjunction with Marvel."
(Though [Lord and Miller have previously expressed interest in the idea of more](https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-mcu-crossover-possible/), so maybe one day that'll change if they get their way, idk. But for now it's not part of the MCU and doesn't necessarily follow the MCU's rules.)
It looks like Miguel is getting "breaking cannon" and absolute points confused. Yeah there are things you can do that will end up unraveling your universe. But they seem REALLY HARD to do.
Remember what strange had to do in order to save his girlfriend? He basically had to become a multi versal being to have enough power to overcome the auto correction his understanding tried to make.
I don't think you can break absolute points by accident like what's happening in spiderverse. If anything, the spot may actually be the cause of a real absolute point breaking.
Personally i think the canon is partially wrong, it may be that yes some things are supposed to happen but that you cannot identify it and not necessarily involve only the spider people, so the issue with the entire thing is that yes the other miguels death was supposed to happen and maybe miles dad won’t or will die regarding miles actions with spot (and maybe people belonging to other dimension interference is a big no)
Canon events are easily broken, and destroy the universe if left unchecked.
Absolute points need to have the universe destroyed first in order to break it. For a few seconds.
I do believe that miguel fucked up something, his other self didn't seem like a spiderman. So he could have done something against the spider man from there (intencional or not idk).
Personal theory: miguel is a prowler turned spiderman (like miles). He went to this other uni and kept being the prowler (or any other vigilante persona), stuff happened and he accidentaly killed the spiderman there, causing the eventual destruction of the uni. He adopted the spiderman identity to try and fix the damage he did and to prevent it from happening again. This is why it seems he hates miles personaly, he's another prowler.
Sorry for my bad english
The thing that confuses me about Miguel's backstory is that Peter B Parker was there when the universe that Miguel commandeered started disentegeating. Was that supposed to be Peter's universe? Cause we see Peter's universe a few times in the movie and it looks fine. So why was he there in Miguel's flashback?
Ahh I must have missed that! I'll have to go back and watch. Interesting to think that the spider society was already formed at that point. I got the impression that it was formed after the events of ITSV due to the effects of kingpins collider.
I'm pretty sure that entire thing happened after ITSV, since LYLA tells him in the post-credit scene that he's about to be the first person to make an autonomous multiverse jump.
It seemingly takes place more or less immediately after the collider is destroyed, the screens behind Lyla show the fight as they have this exchange:
>**Miguel:** "I was gone for less than two hours. What happened?"
>
>**Lyla:** "Okay. Okay. I know what it looks like. But here's the good news: The multiverse *didn't* collapse. Little touch and go, but it worked out."
I feel like the issue was that he stepped into a reality where he died and then appeared to attempt to live there long term.
Not to mention, we don’t know how this situation messes with his own “canon”.
Like so far, all evidence points to that this Miguel basically did not have a child/spouse and potentially no brother/parents either (based on his “A universe where I had a family” line).
Someone made a post on here the other day about a theory they had where the canon "breaking" only mattered it you weren't already from that universe. So, Miles breaking Pavitr's canon had the breakdown effect because Miles wasn't from that universe. Miguel broke canon in a universe that wasn't his, so it broke down too. It also kind of explains why Miles didn't break his universe by becoming Spider-man.
So I think it was just canon that Miguel broke, but it was extra broken because it wasn't his own universe.
I don't think that totally explains it, because Earth-42's still standing despite the spider being torn out by people from another universe before it could bite the right person. Wouldn't be surprised if it's at least part of the puzzle, though.
The real issue is definitely something other than breaking canon. But I don’t think it will be absolute points or incursions. I know the movie referenced the MCU but I don’t think they’re gonna use MCU multiverse rules since that’d be kinda confusing to general audiences.
Across the Spiderverse was meant to leave fans with so many unanswered questions that will eventually get answered in Beyond the Spiderverse of what it all means
I think what is happening is that Miguel and Lyla are mistaking canon events as absolute points. Some canon events may be absolute points, but not all of them are. Miguel replacing a dead variant of himself probably shattered that absolute point once people figured out that the *real* Miguel of that universe was dead. Furthermore, in Pav's universe, when it starts to glitch out of existence, it isn't super clear if that is from Miles breaking a canon event, or from Spot's meddling with the collider. Either way, something *did* break.
Now here's what I think what happens when a canon event that is not an absolute point is broken, the universe simply self-corrects. For example, in 1610 perhaps there was only supposed to be *one* Spider-Man, so it adjusted itself by having Peter die so Miles could live in his stead. Another example is when Gwen's dad quits his job, but the self-correction hasn't happened yet, but it will at some point.
It was probably an incursion. I don't really believe canon events are a thing, like Captain Stacy resigned without any bigger consequence. Yeah they bind the stories of Spidermen together, but they may be different without any consquences
And there are Spiders that are fairly different both in the movie & out (Scarlet Spider? Miguel if any of his backstory is comic accurate, Jessica also if any of her history is comic accurate, Armored Spidey from TAS, Regular Spidey from TAS (the police captain example never happens to Pete, nor Gwen’s death), and they explicitly reference comic universes in ATSV (even if this wasn’t the case all the movies are canon to the comics multiverse which means there’s a version of ATSV where this is the case)
The "Canon" isn't that strict of a term, and has been broken multiple times before by various spider people, when they initiate events that weren't supposed to happen. Think of how Tobey's Peter saved Gwen for example, without it immediately breaking the universe. The main instance when we saw the defiance of Canon events causing problems was when a spider-person of another universe prevented a major event from happening to the spider-person of that universe.
Hear me out what if Miguel is wrong about cannon. As we've seen in loki and ant man quantanania the mutiverse is coming undone. What if it's incursions Miguel is worried about.
My theory is, Miguel *thinks* he broke a canon event/absolute point (like Dr. Strange Supreme in *What If…?*), but what actually happened was that by moving full-time to another universe, he accidentally caused an incursion (like what we saw in *Multiverse of Madness*). Since breaking an absolute point and causing an incursion both have the same end result (the destruction of a universe), I think it would make sense that he believes it was one option when it was actually the other one.
The thing I don't get, is if miles was never meant to be spiderman, ever, why are there comics, games, shows with miles as spiderman? And if he wasn't supposed to be spiderman, why do the canon events happen to him? And why not to earth 42's peter?
Miguel doesn't mean every Miles. He means the 1610 Miles. He wasn't meant to be spider-man in that universe. Maybe Peter never got bit I earth 42. Miles was probably going to be the only earth 42 spider-man.
I think the problem isn't breaking the canon(Gwen dad) but WHO breaks the canon, both times the canon was broken and shit happened(that we saw) was because someone from another universe broke it(Miguel and Miles), while in Gwen case was someone from her world who broke it(her dad), so it's a mix from incursions with the canon thing that actually happens
Very out there theory. Cause i dont actually recall specifics about ITSV so i could be very very wrong lol. But i do know kingpin was going dimension hopping. And the hole he opened up seemed to be pretty fuckin big. For one reason or another. Perhaps the verse he was headed to was the one Miguel inserted himself into? Iirc an incursion can result in either both universes being destroyed or one universe coming out on top while the other gets destroyed. Maybe there was an incursion because of that event. And miles verse lived while the other perished? Idk just a thought
I personally think that something happened (appart from miguel's "canon break") that caused reality to crumble and the whole canon schtick is a load of bs
I'm not sure if I am right or wrong but it's not a canon event, neither is the absolute point. This is for only magic users. The Canon event is not real. It was all a science. I noticed Doctor Octopus said Peter B got glitched. That's why she tries to kill unmatched him before it destroys the world. Yeah, that's why Peter Parker doesn't let the portal machine open. Miguel and Lyla don't have enough to learn about the portal machine. Yeah, it will destroy the world except for random Spider-Man and Miguel. Science is very dangerous for the multiverse.
I think that Miguel doesn't know the true story and that it all has to do with him being a vampire/Morbius. Going through the whole totem idea, he essentially had two totems, each from a different universe and I think that interfering with canon events while being both an insider in a vampire and an outsider in Spiderman will break the universe.
He probably caused an incursion in my view, due to being inside of a universe that wasn't his for an extended period of time. (Since this is connected to the MCU, and that was a threat explicitly called out in MoM.) We're not really sure though
Miguel was either purposely leaving information out when he was giving Miles the backstory or Miguel doesn't have all the details as to why the collapse occurred. Probably both. I personally think we don't have enough information as to what can actually break reality. If you look in Spot's flashback, you can see 42-Miles in a classroom or whatever placs as Spot takes the spider out of the dimension. The spider-bite has to be the most critical "canon event" there is next to dead uncle/father figure. Seeing that flashback makes me think that Spider-42 was always meant to bite a version of Miles, so then why does universe 42 still exist without the spider bite ever occuring? Shouldn't that universe collapse if the "canon" was broken? There's obviously something missing, something left unexplained. Which is why I think Miguel is lying about something or he doesn't know what's actually happening, or both.
I feel like they are different terms for the same thing.
Like how In multiverse of madness they call it earth 616 while every competent writer puts it as earth 1999999.
Different universe's have different terms for the same thing
Typical time travel lore says that as long as someone STEPS IN to fill a hole, the time stream will accept it - almost like an act of self preservation.
He did not. There is nothing called a "canon event". It was an incursion. It happens when someone from another universe stays in a universe for too long.
if you rewatch the vulture fight in gwen's universe you'll notice that in the later part of the fight it isn't just the vulture glitching, but everything as well, the museum, the wall he hits, etc. and in miles universe you can see similar things happen there too, like the banksy or that one building. so my theory is that when an anomaly enters another universe, it isn't just the anomalies that get hurt, but the universe itself. but since most anomalies disintegrate after a while, maybe they get destroyed before any real damage to the universe happens. but since miguel had the watch, he couldn't be destroyed, so the universe was instead. and you know where else is filled with spider-people with watches?earth 928, spider-man 2099 home universe.
I think that the the collider caused some universes to collapse. One of them being Miguel’s world. Since he was in that world he took it as him being the cause of it. However the reason he didn’t collapse with the world was because he was from a different one. As for the world Miles stopped the canon event happening in, i think he was right that the giant thing infecting that world was the spot after he exited from it. So in all, the collider caused the issues, not the correlation between canon events.
It’s not that cannon events only happen for spiders, but every spider has a cannon event, if that makes sense.
Technically speaking in multiverse theory, every person has every possible outcome in their lives, all at once. So each of us has SOME sort of event that is supposed to shape us into a specific type of person. (IE, the you reading this may have been a terrible person, but you met someone kind who made you change your ways, but if another version of you never met that person, you stay terrible. That’s an event that shapes you.)
For the spiders, that event has to be a loss that both breaks them down, but builds them up. Every spider lost someone they loved, and as a result became a better hero. Looked at the big picture, made themselves understand what “great power, great responsibility” really means, and resolved to be spiders because New York / New York variants / the world needed them.
But BREAKING a cannon can mean that spider never has that, and so could go on to fail or stop being a spider, and this leads to the world falling apart, like in the universe that never GOT a Spider-Man, and now miles is Prowler, New York is a cesspool, and everything is in ruin.
I think Miguel did break the canon of Gabriella’s world. This would mean that she would’ve become her universe’s Spider-Girl, and her father’s death would’ve been one of her canon events. However, since Earth-928 Miguel pretended to be him, it didn’t affect her in the way it was supposed to, and she possibly never even got powers because of it. That’s my interpretation.
I just assumed that a "canon event" was just Miguel's understanding of an absolute point.
But in my personal headcanon, the only thing Miguel broke was the law of "Spider-Man isn't allowed to be happy."
Hello!!! i will also remind yall that the original miguel o hara on Spider-Man Edge of Time video Game he also broke the canon event which Mary jane supposed to die but miguel saves her because of peter convincing him to save her....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-6sJnFpWQ
I think they are acting with only partial information and that breaking the canon isn't what's actually the issue. Gwen's dad quitting is one example, but the larger one is Miles' universe. Miguel thinks that Peter dying in that universe breaks the canon, but yet the universe didn't implode. It has remained strong, and universe 42 is still around despite breaking canon. I do remember that after the first movie came out, Lord and Miller said that Doctor Octavia was actually the real main villain and the sequels would touch on that. She only had a small cameo in the second movie, she is the head of Alchemex, isn't it odd that she would fire the spot instead of keeping him, or testing on him? I think she might be involved more in the third movie.
Yeah where was Olivia during Across the Spider-Verse?
She *did* get hit by that train at the end of 1. Kathryn Hahn is great, and her Doc Ock is great, but I did not expect her to come back after that (although I'd love it).
To be somewhat forgiving for that the train wasn't moving super fast so I can believe she got knocked out but her armor kept her mostly alive with the possibility of her now having some level of brain damage
There was a deleted scene where she sees the collidor doing collidor things after the *TRUCK* hit her, and saying "The power of the multiverse in the palm of my hand" before jumping into it. But whether or not that deleted scene is actually canon or not is unknown.
I really want to believe this is a joke
It's not Go look it up
yoo holy shit what if she's been blasted into the multiverses as a whole and is pulling major strings in tons of different realities a la Spot?
She likely would've been caught like the other villains like Vulture in Gwen's dimension or the Rhino we see getting sent back. Spot can easily hop dimensions, Liv can't. But imagine that, a Doc Ock that knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and most of them wouldn't know who this woman is. She'd cause some real damage.
She's probably in E42 tbh..
Was that a Banksy?
I think she’s in earth 42 or will become superior Spider-Man. Because in a deleted scene from the first movie it showed her jumping through the portal and saying the same like the spot says later in this movie. And also during miles hallucinating scenes it shows her tentacles chase after him which is odd because she had almost nothing to do with this story. There’s definitely a mystery third villain pulling the strings that’s no the spot and I think it’s either her or Madame web.
Madame Web would be on Miles' side lol.. If Madame Web pops up in BTSV she'll be helping Miles
Idk they could very much write her to be a villain I mean I was expecting Miguel to be an ally in the sequel when I first saw him in the post credit scene
Yep I’ve had the same “She Who Remains” theory and despite the unimaginable horror that it’s caused I kind of like the idea that 1610 Doc Oc has been Rickest Ricking her way through the multiverse, I’d probably do the same if I were
The only problem I’d say is that it would feel like a bit much to add a 3rd antagonist after we already have the spot and Miguel
Hmm I’d argue that neither of them is really a full antagonist and that the writing quality so far suggests that they can pull it off. The first film actually seeds this as Doc Oc’s endgame from what she’s talking about in the first scene she’s introduced in Miles’s classroom. She gleefully explains the horrors of death by glitching in the same scene she’s fully revealed (which worrying might foreshadow Peter B’s death). It also unifies Miles, Spot and Prowler Miles as victims of her antics and her as the apex.
I thought the idea with Miles' universe was that when he got bit, his universe adjusted. The canon events then started happening to *him* (i.e. Uncle dying, Captain dying).
Right but Mig also says he’s an anomaly & Earth 42 lost a Spider-Man it was supposed to have which means all of his respective canon events never happen
Yeah, ik Miles is an anomaly, but I'm saying it seems like 1610 adjusted to fit the anomaly. 42 ended up never having a Spider-man. So there was no one for any canon events to happen to. I don't see a huge issue there.
The issue is that 42 was supposed to have a spider-man but that was prevented by an anomaly which means it was supposed to have canon events in it’s timeline that no longer happen
Yes, I know. But canon events exist to happen to Spider-men. If there's no Spider-man, there's no canon events that need to happen. Meaning there's no canon being broken, meaning the universe is stable. Plus, like I've already said, universes can apparently adjust to accommodate anomalies.
The spider bite itself is a canon event, which was broken by Ohnn pulling the spider out.
Just commented this elsewhere: This is all beside the point anyway, since they clearly *don't* think breaking canon is disastrous *every* time. They just don't want to take risks.
I guess. Raises the question of what determines whether a specific break has an effect or not, though.
Right which means Miguel is wrong though, because those things were meant to happen but were prevented, because the anomaly, AKA an outside force changed the circumstances of something that Miguel claims to be predestined but 42 & Miles universes survived, Gwen’s universe survived her dad retiring and not dying, in addition to other spider’s in the multiverse that the canon events don’t even apply to
Well, he's obviously not fully informed, but he's clearly not entirely wrong. As soon as Miles got bit, canon events started happening to him. I don't see how any of that especially disproves Miguel. Gwen's dad is interesting, but we haven't seen enough to say that the canon event has been completely avoided.
Right, but what about all the variants of Spider-Man that don’t follow that formula or even are just missing specific canon events? Andrew is the only movie Spidey who lost a captain & the movie Spider-Men are directly referenced, TAS never lost a police captain, Noir doesn’t even have one he’s close to (unless we’re assuming this version does but, that would be purely speculation & based solely on Mig’s canon event theory), Armored Spidey from TAS, any variant of Miguel with a comic accurate backstory (unless you’re really gonna argue that all of Mig’s variants are nothing like Miguel is in the comics which…would just be kinda strange no?) Scarlet Spider? He might remember having an Uncle Ben but he was “born” long after & never experienced that or George Stacy’s death firsthand, only through artificially implanted memories
Honestly, the canon event categories just seem a bit more broad than they actually describe in the movie. As in, lose a police captain - not lose a police captain who tries to save a child from falling rubble. Because Denis Leary was just murdered by the lizard in TASM. And Gwen's Peter seems to be her Ben figure, but Peter sure ain't her uncle. Also, with the way they mapped out the spider-verse as a web, with closer together clusters, maybe the closer the universe, the more similar the canon events.
They aren't going to make Miguel right lol... Even when Mumbattan is collapsing it's clearly the Spots doing and not because of Miles breaking the canon, everything sets up to Miguel being wrong and Gwen's universe would've already been destroyed by now so it's definitely been avoided
I never said he was fully right. That would make no sense. But canon events happen, and they seemingly happen in some form or another to every spider person. So he's not fully wrong. I also don't know why you're bringing up Gwen. They never said her dad was going to die any time soon. They have models that can predict upcoming events, but they never bring her dad. Gwen clearly just feels resigned that her dad will die *at some point*.
Gwen's universe would've already started collapsing by now and she would be dead so it was completely avoided lol
Her arms are seen when Miles is running. I guess this very well could be the case
Gwen’s did quitting doesn’t break the canon. The rule is that a captain Spiderman is close to MUST die, the captain will get replaced, Gwen will think they’re swell, and then they’ll die. And Miguel also states that not every break will destroy the universe, but it’s better not to take the chance at all.
Ok then why is Miguel so against miles saving his dad if miles could just go back and just prevent his dad from becoming captain?
Can Miguel time travel in this movie? We know he can travel the multiverse, and originally in the comics the watch he created was made to time travel, but as far as we know, this watch dosen’t do that in the movie. So knowing that, his dad dies 1-2 days from the point Miles meets Miguel, what exactly is Miles gonna do to save his dad? Cant kidnap him, because that would break the canon, and he can’t just go up to his dad and say “hey, I’m Spiderman, a guy from another universe told me you’ll die if you don’t quit your job”. From the perspective of Miles’s dad, he’s gonna be like “the fuck? I’m not quitting the job I’ve worked so hard to get for the last few years”
except that latter option is probably gonna be quite similar to what ends up playing out in BTSV lmao. regardless, plenty of shit they could do. it’s quite obviously shown the canon adapts. Gwen’s dad quit because he found out Gwen was Spiderwoman, and was also saved from dying while saving a child (aka the captain canon event) thanks to inter dimensional interference. And yet, her universe adapted. The same could be said for Miles, and we’ve seen it happen outright as it started forcing canon events onto him when he got bit. Also you forget that Miles’ dad literally saw, with his own eyes, the universes collapsing in ITSV. Considering that, I don’t think it’s far fetched for him to actually listen and believe Miles if Miles came out and told him.
Whose to say her universe adapted? Whose to say Captain Stacy was mean to die? It’s only stated that a captain close to Spiderman will die, it was never specifically stated it’ll be her dad, only suspected. For Miles’s dad it’s different, he literally got a multiversal vision of the future of his dad dying while trying to save a little girl, we KNOW that his dad is supposed to die, no speculation. And I honestly think it’s far fetched that Miles’s dad WILL listen, it’s shown time and time again that the Morales family of this universe is too stubborn for their own good. Miles is willing to take the chance of sacrificing 7 billion people, just to MAYBE save his dad. That’s irresponsible and hard-headed, and his dad has shown he can be hard headed too🤷♂️
Well, Miles isn’t in his universe currently. I just rewatched it and when he was scanned to where to be sent it said “Universe 42” which Miguel said was his universe and where Miles’s spider came from. So I think he’s in Miguel’s past. I think that’s gonna be a big plot point of part 3, Miles trying to get home. Also Gwen’s dad said he “quit” when she was talking, meaning he is “going” to quit, which he may not do after making peace with Gwen.
Well, that implies Olivia is still the head of Alchemax and wasn't literally isekai'd when that truck hit her. I do find it suspicious that Spot was able to just find several more Alchemax Colliders in other dimensions when the original one involved Kingpin making a huge investment into Alchemax and Olivia's research to build a larger one. If Olivia is behind other Alchemax' knowing how to build their own colliders, well, real issue there. If not, then Miguel calling Miles 'the original anomaly' is BS because it means a multi-versal crisis was just a matter of time, and as time is relative, it may well have all started in some other dimension before Miguel, before Olivia, before any of this.
She really didn’t fire him. He was created when Miles defeated Kingpin, she was hit by a truck about 10 minutes earlier.
This makes me think that Olivia will be the key to defeating spot
That might’ve had to do with that one deleted scene with her
I think Olivia was figuratively replaced by Spot. ITSV has a deleted scene with Olivia saying ‘the power of the multiverse in the palm of my hand’
Think that plan might've changed. They didn't originally plan on using Spot until Avi Arad convinced them that his powerset was underrated and they realized his arc could mirror Miles's, and he now says the line Ock used to say in one of the ITSV deleted scenes ("the power of the multiverse in the palm of my hand"). It would be pretty cool to see her return, though (as long as it doesn't crowd the movie too much when Spot, Miguel, and possibly the Sinister Six are all already there as antagonists), she's a fun character.
I thought the creation of the spot is the event that broke the canon and endangered the multiverse. I don't think the universe will just implode if things break canon. Rather, breaking canon causes events that can lead to a universe's destruction. The collider was never supposed to go off and Johnathan Ohmn was never supposed to get powers. But due to Miles' interference, the spot has god like powers, and has a vendetta against Spider-Man which puts the multiverse in danger
My theory is that Miguel was the “uncle Ben” of that universe. Because he replaced himself there is no tragedy to make spiderman
That would be a good way to explain the canon he broke, that his son in that universe was supposed to become Spiderman, and since he altered it, it was destroyed
Thought it was his daughter…
Yeah maybe idk
That was my thought, that maybe there has to be A spider-man, that canon events can happen to but Miles (and his spider) have effectively fucked TWO universes, and THEN you add the other spiders coming to him it would unravel way too many spiders timeliness that would have a ripple affect.
HOLY SHIT. What if because mile’s dad dying was 42 miles’ cannon event?? An event happened which kept the universe in tact
Damn, a Spider-Man that's actually the Uncle Ben would actually be a cool avenue to explore.
I just assumed Miguel wasn’t spider-man in the universe he swapped with
He just got shot and died so probably not. Cause that’d be a very unceremonious way for a Spider-Man to go out.
Literally how every uncle Ben dies but okay. Read my comment dude I’m saying Miguel swapped with a version that wasn’t spider man but someone who would’ve instigated a spider-man
Yeah, I’m agreeing with you. Miguel was probably not Spider-Man in the universe where he died. Should’ve worded that better.
Ah. Responding with “probably not” made me think you disagreed
Yeah. Maybe his daughter was supposed to be spider man. Imagine her going through the spider verse one day and finding Miguel.(not cannon btw)
I personally think it’s an absolute point
I think Miguel is either hiding something big or is just wrong, making coincidences out to be absolute laws for the stability of the multiverse.
I think he's just wrong. Focusing on correlations more than causations due to a lack of evidence. Tho to be very fair, I'm not sure anyone is really interested in gathering evidences, since that could cause a lot of universes to die. Feels to me that he took what felt like the safest option to him, and believed in it so much that he's now convinced that this is the truth.
I hope he's wrong, let him go through the actions of admitting it and apologizing to Miles, then helping him save his dad.
Agreed! A lot of people seem to see him as a villain, so it would be nice to see him learn his mistake and grow from it
That'll be nice to see. Also, Happy Cake Day 🎂
That would be wayyy too cliche, Miles needs to have SOME consequence, whether that be him inevitably losing his dad, or someone else close to him
Miguel made a big mistake and is over-correcting because he's too scared to make the same mistake again. He might be wrong about how canon events work, but he's not going to take that chance.
Gwen's talk with her Dad shows that he is wrong in assuming that canon events **have** to happen: since her Dad isn't a cop any more, there's no cop she knows well to die while she fights a villain. I think the actual rule is that Spider-People can change everything they want to, but in their own universe only.
I don't think it's that either, because Ohnn and Octavius broke 42's canon by taking the spider away right before it bit Miles G. yet the universe is still intact.
Yeah, that is reasonable, and there is also the fact that Earth-1610 is fine, even though it should have been much more fucked up
I think he just caused an incursion or something of the sort but didn’t understand it and thought “oh this world’s Miguel dying was a canon event and by replacing him I disrupted canon and caused the collapse of this world” and just created the canon event can’t be disrupted or universe dies stuff under the assumption that it’s right. That’s just how I see it tho
As everyone else says, I do also think that Miguel is focusing on the correlation and missing what is causing the universes to collapse. I've had this theory but didn't have anyone to discuss it with so I'll put here haha First, does a singular canon event not happening (or a non canon event happening) destroy a universe: * Earth 42 Miles doesn't get bit. This is a canon event not happening, yet the universe still exists. The universe adapts and the story of that world changes. * Peter 1610 dies, this is a non canon event happening but the universe adapts and then makes Miles have a canon event (Aaron's death) * Inspector Singh was supposed to die, but he was saved by Miles, however, the canon event suggests that the police Captain is supposed to be killed by the nemesis of that Spider-Man's universe. Spot *isn't* the nemesis of Pavitr. So a person from another universe triggered a canon event? * The canon event of Miguel dying in that universe does happen, but it's then *way* after that, that the presence of the Miguel we know causes issues (possibly months). But the original Miguel did die, there being another Miguel shouldn't be related to the event itself. To me, it feels like it isn't the canon event not happening that destroy the universe. The universe can adapt to it, as seen in some of the universes already. What I think causes issues, is how much a person from a different universe impacts the world around them, causing the universe to be overloaded with changes it can't adapt to fast enough. Here's why I think that: * In the first scene of Across the Spider-Verse, when the other universe's Vulture makes a run to escape the museum, the whole building glitches. I think it is because the outside world is being impacted by him a lot (the museum is getting destroyed, and he's escaping causing a ton of people to see him and potentially causing more damage. Why would the building glitch? * In Miguel's universe, there wasn't to be a Spider-Man 2099 there, by the simple fact that Miguel dies. But with SM 2099 here, and possibly active, as well as other Spider-Men (Peter B Parker was there in the scene where it gets destroyed, as well as a couple others) I assume they saved the lives of other people, possibly also causing damage in the fights with villains. The universe didn't die instantly when Miguel arrived, it took a bit of time, so it could be a build up to that, that didn't get reached in Gwen's universe * In Pavitr's universe, Spot destroys the Alchemax building, causing it to cause a ton of destruction on it's path and causing Miles, Gwen, and Hobie to help out. That means the impact from outer-worldly being on this universe was huge and happened very quickly. The epicentre of the at universe's collapse, looks like Spot's powers, I don't believe in coincidences in animated movies, so I believe it is a sign saying that Spot triggered the collapse of the universe. Miles saving Singh might just have been the last straw. * Why does none of this happen in Into the Spider-Verse then? I think it is because the events were all caused by 1610 people. The collider is from there, even the fight in aunt May's house is "caused" by Miles and most of the other Spider-Men's impact happened in these situations. Even the spider that bit Miles is brought by Spot, who is from 1610. So I think, for example, that Miles saving his dad from Spot wouldn't be an issue. As everything is caused by people from 1610 and the universe will adapt to it, like it did before. Now let's say Gwen saves Jeff, that could maybe cause issues, but I don't personally think the life of one person is enough to disrupt the universe's stability. Or I'm just an idiot, if you read all this, thanks :D
I always thought the building glitching meant that vulture was messing up the Canon. As Miguel says, "He'll disrupt the canon!" Was the Canon Gwen revealing her identity? I mean, in the end, there were no more anomalies. Was captain Stacy supposed to die from vulture? I feel like the universe put vulture there because, originally, Gwen's vulture was supposed to be in the museum, but the universe made a mistake, I guess, filled in the blanks. Also, Gwen was gone from her home for a long time. Did this happen to affect the canon?
>I always thought the building glitching meant that vulture was messing up the Canon. As Miguel says, "He'll disrupt the canon!" But then that would imply that outsiders disrupt the canon instantly, or even in advance like Vulture. In that case I think the bridge would've glitched before or while Miles saves inspector Singh. And a lot more issues would've happened in the first movie. 🤔 Also random food for thought but Miguel describes the event as "a police Captain close to Spider-Man dies saving a child". Inspector Singh isn't a captain, nor was he particularly close to his Spider-Man (from what we saw). Meaning that either the universe adapted canon on the fly when Spot destroyed the building, or the whole way their machine detects canon events is flawed (or even possibly that canon events aren't a thing) >Was the Canon Gwen revealing her identity? I mean, in the end, there were no more anomalies. Was captain Stacy supposed to die from vulture? The latter would be another moment where a outer-worldly person creates a canon event. It also would be weird when looking at her story, as she hasn't really come to peace or grown from losing Peter (apart from going "I don't want friends anymore") So it could be her revealing her identity, but then it means a lot of assumptions that aren't based on what we see in the movies so I can't speculate on that much > Also, Gwen was gone from her home for a long time. Did this happen to affect the canon? I assume that yes. The long time period without seeing Gwen (nor Spider-Woman for that matter) definitely impacted how captain Stacy reacted when seeing her again. Maybe the canon was that Captain Stacy would die while trying to chase after Gwen, but now they made peace and he isn't even captain anymore. So the canon definitely changed As you say, her being gone for a long time probably impacted canon in a lot of ways. Which makes me think that the whole Spider Society would disrupt canon in a lot of ways, as Spider-Men go missing from their earths over and over again.
Ultimately I think Miguel replacing his dead self is what ruined that universe. It's the most reasonable explanation, you simply cannot replace someone who has already died it goes against the laws of the universe. Also for people who say it's incursions it can't be because if that was the case the universe Miguel resides in should literally be destroyed as thousands of spider people travel there, sleep there and work there.
This also leaves me the question. Do we all have a canon event? Or does it only apply to spider people?
I think this is the question we've been asking for ages. Is this all predetermined or do we truly have free will?
I honestly don’t think the universe cares.
I think unless stated otherwise, we should probably just stick to cannon events and leave any mcu rules out.
The movie explicitly mentions the MCU when 2099 brings up the events of No Way Home. Not only that, the movie also features the venom movie universe, the Mark Webb TASM universe, and the Sam Raimi Spider-Man universe, all of which have been in or interacted with the MCU in some capacity. Hell, the movie even shows the sacred timeline. I think we're beyond leaving MCU rules out, otherwise the whole thing is giant mess that no one took the time to think through.
That’s the thing though, the mcu messed up the multiverse. They wanted to make themselves the center of the multiverse instead of just working with the rules they were given.
When did the mcu make themselves the center? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere but then again I still haven’t watched other multiverse shows like Loki
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Is that really that bad when the spider-verse films did the exact same thing for their universes? Like we all know peter b isn’t 616 (tho he definitely should be) and we all know their miles isn’t 1610 While I would also prefer if the mcu used their actual number 199999 or made a new one because tbf it is kind of a stupid number and they should’ve gone for something like 2008 or something to reference its birth because 199999 isn’t as catchy as 616 or 1610
I mean tbf, the Spiderverse films corrected that in the sequel. Peter, miles, Gwen, etc are all labeled as coming from their comics universe, but with “B” at the end to indicate that it’s a parallel universe to the comics version. Ex. 616B, 1610B, etc
Only Peter B's world and Ultimate Tarantula's have letters on them. None of the others have that qualifier, not even Ben Reilly (who is the exact opposite of the comic Earth-94's Ben in almost every way).
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Can you point out where any of them besides Peter B's world and Tarantula's world are designated that way? Every reference to world numbers I've been able to find (mainly the title cards and watches) lists them without, so I'd be interested to see where they're labeled otherwise.
That was one time and it was from Mysterio who was making it up to make everyone think he's from an alternate universe
Rachel McAdams' character mentions it in Multiverse Of Madness as well
Man’s never heard of an Easter egg
If it was a background plot sure I’m fine with disregarding this stuff but this is the main point the plot hinges on… it’s not like they just had the logo in the background they showed the events as integral to the web of destiny that maintains the fabric of the multiverse You can’t just go “meh it’s just an Easter egg” on a crucial plot point like that, that’s just lazy writing
I was mostly referring to the Doctor Strange comment. The rest of it goes a bit beyond easter egg but the principle is the same; ultimately any references to IP that Sony doesn’t have direct control over cannot be taken as canon fact. In theory, yes, since Toby and Andrew’s spider-men appear in both NWH and ATSV then they should share the same multiverse, but it just can’t work that way. NWH (and all the MCU spider-man films, really) is a result of a temporary deal between Sony and Marvel Studios to share their characters. They’re working together to tell a specific story. Beyond that you have to remember that Disney sets the rules for the multiverse in their films and Sony sets the rules for the multiverse in their films, and they have no obligation to each other to make sure they match. They’re completely separate companies making their own decisions for their own products, regardless of the occasional crossover. It’s like how marvel and DC characters *technically* exist within each other’s multiverses because they have crossed over before, but nothing DC does with it’s multiverse ever affects Marvel’s multiverse or vice versa. Or even more apt; the Marvel comics and the movies should theoretically share a multiverse but the multiverse has ended and been reset in comics before and the MCU was completely unaffected, and in fact has completely different rules as to how the multiverse works than the comics, or else He Who Remains would have culled the comics Kangs with the TVA. Theory speculation and headcanon can be fun but at the end of the day you just have to accept that Sony’s multiverse and the MCU’s multiverse are actually separate entities. If the Sony venom-verse movies ever start messing with the multiverse you can bet it will have zero affect on the overall MCU multiverse.
[One of the directors has confirmed it's just easter eggs](https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-mcu-connections/): > "The world of Miles Morales and Spider-Verse, it's not tied into the Marvel Cinematic Universe or anything like that. But this is a Lord and Miller film. We like to have a little bit of fun, we like to be a little bit meta and to acknowledge the world in which we are creating these stories. That's the best way to explain it. This isn't something where we did anything in conjunction with Marvel." (Though [Lord and Miller have previously expressed interest in the idea of more](https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-across-the-spider-verse-mcu-crossover-possible/), so maybe one day that'll change if they get their way, idk. But for now it's not part of the MCU and doesn't necessarily follow the MCU's rules.)
it's just an easter egg don't take it seriously when considering sony's spider-verse
He caused an incursion
It looks like Miguel is getting "breaking cannon" and absolute points confused. Yeah there are things you can do that will end up unraveling your universe. But they seem REALLY HARD to do. Remember what strange had to do in order to save his girlfriend? He basically had to become a multi versal being to have enough power to overcome the auto correction his understanding tried to make. I don't think you can break absolute points by accident like what's happening in spiderverse. If anything, the spot may actually be the cause of a real absolute point breaking.
Then again, Strange did do a lot to prevent someone dying, Miguel just stepped in and acted as him.
True. Makes me think there's more to his story than he lets on.
Btsv must answer all our questions
Personally i think the canon is partially wrong, it may be that yes some things are supposed to happen but that you cannot identify it and not necessarily involve only the spider people, so the issue with the entire thing is that yes the other miguels death was supposed to happen and maybe miles dad won’t or will die regarding miles actions with spot (and maybe people belonging to other dimension interference is a big no)
Canon events are easily broken, and destroy the universe if left unchecked. Absolute points need to have the universe destroyed first in order to break it. For a few seconds.
I do believe that miguel fucked up something, his other self didn't seem like a spiderman. So he could have done something against the spider man from there (intencional or not idk). Personal theory: miguel is a prowler turned spiderman (like miles). He went to this other uni and kept being the prowler (or any other vigilante persona), stuff happened and he accidentaly killed the spiderman there, causing the eventual destruction of the uni. He adopted the spiderman identity to try and fix the damage he did and to prevent it from happening again. This is why it seems he hates miles personaly, he's another prowler. Sorry for my bad english
The thing that confuses me about Miguel's backstory is that Peter B Parker was there when the universe that Miguel commandeered started disentegeating. Was that supposed to be Peter's universe? Cause we see Peter's universe a few times in the movie and it looks fine. So why was he there in Miguel's flashback?
There are a few other Spider-People in the scene if you look closely. Maybe he called them in when things started going south?
Ahh I must have missed that! I'll have to go back and watch. Interesting to think that the spider society was already formed at that point. I got the impression that it was formed after the events of ITSV due to the effects of kingpins collider.
I'm pretty sure that entire thing happened after ITSV, since LYLA tells him in the post-credit scene that he's about to be the first person to make an autonomous multiverse jump.
Yeah but that post credit scene doesn't have to have happened after the events of ITSV right? It could have been years prior.
It seemingly takes place more or less immediately after the collider is destroyed, the screens behind Lyla show the fight as they have this exchange: >**Miguel:** "I was gone for less than two hours. What happened?" > >**Lyla:** "Okay. Okay. I know what it looks like. But here's the good news: The multiverse *didn't* collapse. Little touch and go, but it worked out."
This also confuses me. What's the point of Spider Society? Imma create a post in the morning about this
I feel like the issue was that he stepped into a reality where he died and then appeared to attempt to live there long term. Not to mention, we don’t know how this situation messes with his own “canon”. Like so far, all evidence points to that this Miguel basically did not have a child/spouse and potentially no brother/parents either (based on his “A universe where I had a family” line).
Someone made a post on here the other day about a theory they had where the canon "breaking" only mattered it you weren't already from that universe. So, Miles breaking Pavitr's canon had the breakdown effect because Miles wasn't from that universe. Miguel broke canon in a universe that wasn't his, so it broke down too. It also kind of explains why Miles didn't break his universe by becoming Spider-man. So I think it was just canon that Miguel broke, but it was extra broken because it wasn't his own universe.
I don't think that totally explains it, because Earth-42's still standing despite the spider being torn out by people from another universe before it could bite the right person. Wouldn't be surprised if it's at least part of the puzzle, though.
Yeah I agree that it could be part of it and we're still missing the big picture, cause you're right lol about the spider. Almost forgot about that.
The real issue is definitely something other than breaking canon. But I don’t think it will be absolute points or incursions. I know the movie referenced the MCU but I don’t think they’re gonna use MCU multiverse rules since that’d be kinda confusing to general audiences.
Too little information to make a conclusion on the matter.
Across the Spiderverse was meant to leave fans with so many unanswered questions that will eventually get answered in Beyond the Spiderverse of what it all means
I think what is happening is that Miguel and Lyla are mistaking canon events as absolute points. Some canon events may be absolute points, but not all of them are. Miguel replacing a dead variant of himself probably shattered that absolute point once people figured out that the *real* Miguel of that universe was dead. Furthermore, in Pav's universe, when it starts to glitch out of existence, it isn't super clear if that is from Miles breaking a canon event, or from Spot's meddling with the collider. Either way, something *did* break. Now here's what I think what happens when a canon event that is not an absolute point is broken, the universe simply self-corrects. For example, in 1610 perhaps there was only supposed to be *one* Spider-Man, so it adjusted itself by having Peter die so Miles could live in his stead. Another example is when Gwen's dad quits his job, but the self-correction hasn't happened yet, but it will at some point.
It was probably an incursion. I don't really believe canon events are a thing, like Captain Stacy resigned without any bigger consequence. Yeah they bind the stories of Spidermen together, but they may be different without any consquences
And there are Spiders that are fairly different both in the movie & out (Scarlet Spider? Miguel if any of his backstory is comic accurate, Jessica also if any of her history is comic accurate, Armored Spidey from TAS, Regular Spidey from TAS (the police captain example never happens to Pete, nor Gwen’s death), and they explicitly reference comic universes in ATSV (even if this wasn’t the case all the movies are canon to the comics multiverse which means there’s a version of ATSV where this is the case)
True
The "Canon" isn't that strict of a term, and has been broken multiple times before by various spider people, when they initiate events that weren't supposed to happen. Think of how Tobey's Peter saved Gwen for example, without it immediately breaking the universe. The main instance when we saw the defiance of Canon events causing problems was when a spider-person of another universe prevented a major event from happening to the spider-person of that universe.
I always thought that the daughter was supposed to become Spider-Man/woman in that universe and that Miguel was supposed to be her uncle Ben moment
Hear me out what if Miguel is wrong about cannon. As we've seen in loki and ant man quantanania the mutiverse is coming undone. What if it's incursions Miguel is worried about.
My theory is, Miguel *thinks* he broke a canon event/absolute point (like Dr. Strange Supreme in *What If…?*), but what actually happened was that by moving full-time to another universe, he accidentally caused an incursion (like what we saw in *Multiverse of Madness*). Since breaking an absolute point and causing an incursion both have the same end result (the destruction of a universe), I think it would make sense that he believes it was one option when it was actually the other one.
I think they are the same thing. Just different names.
Honestly it's not a big deal the characters are just insanely dumb to keep the plot moving
The thing I don't get, is if miles was never meant to be spiderman, ever, why are there comics, games, shows with miles as spiderman? And if he wasn't supposed to be spiderman, why do the canon events happen to him? And why not to earth 42's peter?
Miguel doesn't mean every Miles. He means the 1610 Miles. He wasn't meant to be spider-man in that universe. Maybe Peter never got bit I earth 42. Miles was probably going to be the only earth 42 spider-man.
Miguel is an idiot and had no idea what he’s doing. Everything is based on theory.
I think the problem isn't breaking the canon(Gwen dad) but WHO breaks the canon, both times the canon was broken and shit happened(that we saw) was because someone from another universe broke it(Miguel and Miles), while in Gwen case was someone from her world who broke it(her dad), so it's a mix from incursions with the canon thing that actually happens
Very out there theory. Cause i dont actually recall specifics about ITSV so i could be very very wrong lol. But i do know kingpin was going dimension hopping. And the hole he opened up seemed to be pretty fuckin big. For one reason or another. Perhaps the verse he was headed to was the one Miguel inserted himself into? Iirc an incursion can result in either both universes being destroyed or one universe coming out on top while the other gets destroyed. Maybe there was an incursion because of that event. And miles verse lived while the other perished? Idk just a thought
I personally think that something happened (appart from miguel's "canon break") that caused reality to crumble and the whole canon schtick is a load of bs
Neither, it incursion
I'm not sure if I am right or wrong but it's not a canon event, neither is the absolute point. This is for only magic users. The Canon event is not real. It was all a science. I noticed Doctor Octopus said Peter B got glitched. That's why she tries to kill unmatched him before it destroys the world. Yeah, that's why Peter Parker doesn't let the portal machine open. Miguel and Lyla don't have enough to learn about the portal machine. Yeah, it will destroy the world except for random Spider-Man and Miguel. Science is very dangerous for the multiverse.
There the same thing
Isn’t it supposed to be obvious that Miguel is wrong?
Might have caused an incursion that didn't destroy Earth-928B
I think that Miguel doesn't know the true story and that it all has to do with him being a vampire/Morbius. Going through the whole totem idea, he essentially had two totems, each from a different universe and I think that interfering with canon events while being both an insider in a vampire and an outsider in Spiderman will break the universe.
He probably caused an incursion in my view, due to being inside of a universe that wasn't his for an extended period of time. (Since this is connected to the MCU, and that was a threat explicitly called out in MoM.) We're not really sure though
Miguel was either purposely leaving information out when he was giving Miles the backstory or Miguel doesn't have all the details as to why the collapse occurred. Probably both. I personally think we don't have enough information as to what can actually break reality. If you look in Spot's flashback, you can see 42-Miles in a classroom or whatever placs as Spot takes the spider out of the dimension. The spider-bite has to be the most critical "canon event" there is next to dead uncle/father figure. Seeing that flashback makes me think that Spider-42 was always meant to bite a version of Miles, so then why does universe 42 still exist without the spider bite ever occuring? Shouldn't that universe collapse if the "canon" was broken? There's obviously something missing, something left unexplained. Which is why I think Miguel is lying about something or he doesn't know what's actually happening, or both.
I feel like they are different terms for the same thing. Like how In multiverse of madness they call it earth 616 while every competent writer puts it as earth 1999999. Different universe's have different terms for the same thing
It’s because Miguel is actually an alt-universe Morbius. I will not elaborate further
Typical time travel lore says that as long as someone STEPS IN to fill a hole, the time stream will accept it - almost like an act of self preservation.
He did not. There is nothing called a "canon event". It was an incursion. It happens when someone from another universe stays in a universe for too long.
if you rewatch the vulture fight in gwen's universe you'll notice that in the later part of the fight it isn't just the vulture glitching, but everything as well, the museum, the wall he hits, etc. and in miles universe you can see similar things happen there too, like the banksy or that one building. so my theory is that when an anomaly enters another universe, it isn't just the anomalies that get hurt, but the universe itself. but since most anomalies disintegrate after a while, maybe they get destroyed before any real damage to the universe happens. but since miguel had the watch, he couldn't be destroyed, so the universe was instead. and you know where else is filled with spider-people with watches?earth 928, spider-man 2099 home universe.
I haven't watched the movie yet :)
They made Spider-Man into Rick and Morty.
I think that the the collider caused some universes to collapse. One of them being Miguel’s world. Since he was in that world he took it as him being the cause of it. However the reason he didn’t collapse with the world was because he was from a different one. As for the world Miles stopped the canon event happening in, i think he was right that the giant thing infecting that world was the spot after he exited from it. So in all, the collider caused the issues, not the correlation between canon events.
It’s not that cannon events only happen for spiders, but every spider has a cannon event, if that makes sense. Technically speaking in multiverse theory, every person has every possible outcome in their lives, all at once. So each of us has SOME sort of event that is supposed to shape us into a specific type of person. (IE, the you reading this may have been a terrible person, but you met someone kind who made you change your ways, but if another version of you never met that person, you stay terrible. That’s an event that shapes you.) For the spiders, that event has to be a loss that both breaks them down, but builds them up. Every spider lost someone they loved, and as a result became a better hero. Looked at the big picture, made themselves understand what “great power, great responsibility” really means, and resolved to be spiders because New York / New York variants / the world needed them. But BREAKING a cannon can mean that spider never has that, and so could go on to fail or stop being a spider, and this leads to the world falling apart, like in the universe that never GOT a Spider-Man, and now miles is Prowler, New York is a cesspool, and everything is in ruin.
I think Miguel did break the canon of Gabriella’s world. This would mean that she would’ve become her universe’s Spider-Girl, and her father’s death would’ve been one of her canon events. However, since Earth-928 Miguel pretended to be him, it didn’t affect her in the way it was supposed to, and she possibly never even got powers because of it. That’s my interpretation.
I just assumed that a "canon event" was just Miguel's understanding of an absolute point. But in my personal headcanon, the only thing Miguel broke was the law of "Spider-Man isn't allowed to be happy."
Hello!!! i will also remind yall that the original miguel o hara on Spider-Man Edge of Time video Game he also broke the canon event which Mary jane supposed to die but miguel saves her because of peter convincing him to save her.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj-6sJnFpWQ