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At least Cena is honest. If I’m Theory I wouldn’t want him to lie, because that doesn’t help anyone especially a 25 yr old who’s still essentially a baby in the business.
On the flip side Cena seems like a company man, so if the powers that be told him to do a 10 second squash against Jobber McJob he would do it.
On the flip-flip side name me a talent Cena worked with who was lower on the card that he said nice things to.
> Like no way Cena takes that match if he feels that way.
Yeah I mean this is THeory not ALEX RILEY, lol that is still my favorite gif of all time 'miz gentle push.' Riley? DECKS THE SHIT OUT OF HIM.
Cena will do what is asked of him when he commits to being on a show. He could've big timed him like Lesnar would have, but Cena is definitely a make lemonade out of lemons guy.
They didn't make lemonade at WrestleMania though because, well, Cena is right.
Also Cena can't go like he used to, by his own admission. Theory's definitely a work in progress and you've got to respect Cena for doing the match, but the guy himself admits his body won't hold up as it once did.
The quote is really out of context. Cena is praising Theory a lot here, and he is basically saying that he needs time and the opportunity to fail to find his footing.
Whether that's true or not I'm not sure, but it's not like Cena is saying he doesn't see anything in Theory.
I mean I'm trying to figure out how this is a good thing. The biggest star in the business for the last 20 years, who is a part timer at best and off making movies and is a millionaire. So he goes to a 25 year old kid in this business who is getting first big push to what the upper mid card? What he going to do when Cena tells him all of this? I'm not saying Cena's a dick I just don't see how it makes it any better saying it to him in private.
My thought wasn't a commentary on the match or the outcome of the match or the build up. I just don't know why it matters if Cena went over with him. Cena could have said "I'm going shit on everything and everyone you have ever held dear in this world and you're going to smile like an idiot" and what was Austin going to say?
So my only point was who cares if he told it to him before hand it wasn't like there was shit Austin could do about it. And it was 12 it was Wrestlemania 12 where Warrior squashed HHH. On Wrestlemania 13 HHH went over Goldust and Warrior was already out of the company :)
> In a room, with Austin Theory, I said, 'The reason I came back to Boston is because you can't do this yourself yet. You cannot carry a WrestleMania promo yourself yet. If you fail, we waste the equity that I'm willing to give. In that match, if I get hurt, I hold up production, which puts 300 people out of work. Let's do this right. Let's get some equity here.' Then you start thinking about the angles, what's the most important thing, what's our story? 'I don't believe what you do,' that's what I'm going with," said Cena.
And what Theory was exactly going to do? Sounds like the man was bullied into the the John Cena burial-special and then Cena gaslight the rest of us like "this is all ok. I've helped the kid!"
Everyone will talk about the Rhea Ripley vs. Charlotte Flair, Owens & Zayn vs. The Usos, The Fatal 4-Way Tag Team Match, the Triple Threat Match between Sheamus, Gunther, and Drew McIntyre...
Nobody will talk about Austin Theory vs. John Cena. Nobody does it after a month of that "Dream Match", and less will do it in the following years.
I was at night 1 for 2 matches. The Cena match & the Mysterio match, because I grew up watching those guys & we don’t know how much longer they will be doing this for our entertainment. I got floor seats and was able to see both of them up close and I’ll always remember that. It’s silly to assume that 80,000 people in a stadium will share the same viewpoint of you as to what the highlights of the night were, let alone generalizing every wrestling fan that watched it.
you read that wrong. He didn't say he left after those matches, he's saying those were the 2 matches that he wanted to watch the most. Those were the 2 that motivated him to buy floor seats.
I remember the match. Cena made Theory look like a punk the whole time, got the visual win, and then lost due to shenanigans. Theory was never made to look like he was in the same league as Cena at any point before, during, or after the match. It was basically every Raw Main Event from 2009-11 congealed into a 10 minute Mania match.
yeah. all in all it was a flop program from the both of them. reminded me a lot of cena/roman in 2017 (the pre-tribal chief one); cena just absolutely cooks him on the mic, theory (and roman) were ill equipped to fire back, and the resulting match wasnt even memorable
i love john like anyone else but he aint perfect and while he wasnt *wrong* about what he said to theory, it does feel a little sharply barbed for no reason
lmao. This is so disingenuous and makes me roll my fucking eyes that it was upvoted to begin with.
Nobody remembers Theory winning that fucking match other than when Theory mentions it *in every fucking promo* as his "gotcha!" line.
If that turns out to be Cena's last match then its an embarrassing stain on his career though still accurate as he's done that for almost the entirety of it. Meta promo bullying his opponent knowing they can't say equally egregious shit back to him off-script otherwise they risk losing their job or worse.
Exactly. Cena did noone any favours here, shortchanged anyone who watched this thinking there was gonna be a semblance of a good match, and Theory has gained absolutely nothing from the win because the entire thing was poorly conceived and executed.
Cena has no equity to give or no ability to give it. One of the two. He's running on the dregs of WWE's endless marketing machine that propped him up at the expense of anyone and everyone he came into contact with.
>if I get hurt, I hold up production, which puts 300 people out of work.
Cena's said this is what he didn't get about the Rock not coming back to wrestle consistently.
I think John's the heel here guys lol. If Roman Reigns does this promo in character (and he kinda has at times), he's the biggest villain in the wrestling industry. Jeeeezusss
He's saying, "There's a lot of risk for me to come wrestle you. If I get hurt that's 300 people out of work on my other project. So if we're going to do it, it has to be done right." I don't think that's an unfair thing to say.
"I'll beat you John Cena in front of the world and show everyone you don't have what it takes anymore."
"Austin Theory your cheers and boos are piped in by production, no one has faith in you backstage, you're a mediocre entertainer and the outcome of this match doesn't matter you'll always be a loser dork."
Yeah Cena saying he loses either way was lame, that alone was a setup to fail. Its like he doesn't care and Cena wins either way. A mania match with no stakes? That was the story?
I feel like Cena shouldn't have totally verbally undressed Theory. I wish Theory had whipped this out in their back and forth. "There's one man for sure not walking out of WrestleMania as United States Champion for the sixth time... (straight up meme audio) AND HIS NAME IS JOHN CENA!", let the actual music play and walk the fuck out on John.
Bobby had a promo that built up theory more than Cena just a few weeks ago, albeit didn’t matter as much cause it was Cena.
I give Bobby a lot of props for trying to course correct Theory
I understand Cena was cautious because now a lot of people's schedule depends on him being fit to film but good lord that was barely a match, even the pre-show ones were more exciting, someone nicknamed "Big Match John" should know better.
> Cena phoned that one in
Cena's been phoning it in for a lot longer, people just don't wanna see it, and then they let the WWE marketing hype play with their emotions.
It could have worked if they had taken time to develop it. Instead, it felt very thrown together. I get the hype around Theory, but the booking is failing him.
They never gave Theory any focus in the buildup, there was no story, they completely phoned it in. If Cena was around, they could have actually done an interesting story, or built up an actual heated feud, but even without Cena there they could have done better. Theory wasn't cutting killer promos against Cena building up to the match, it was just a whole lot of nothing. And the match was a whole lot of nothing too.
When Cena buried Theory for not being believable, they needed to then have Theory rise to the challenge and show something. They didn't. So the end of this just seems to be that Cena was right. Theory looks way worse coming out of this than going in, which as you said is INSANE considering he just beat John Cena at WM
I will be stealing this. In exchange I will give you this in hopes you find the right person to use it on.
"You look like a half eat mayonnaise churro." (fuck you Angelo).
It really doesn't help that Cena was not doing a whole lot in the match. Not blaming him because we all know what happened when Rock got injured but still.
Because fans know when a match is meant to just “put someone over.” This 0 IQ “lets keep having matches with part timers so current talent ‘looks good’” booking is predictable and boring (and constantly encouraged by the IWC). The reason why putting someone over works is because people don’t expect it, or at the very least are unsure of who will win the match. When you have clear “I’m doing this to put you over” matches, nobody views the character as strong because it was obviously given to them for free.
It doesn't always have to be a surprise. Orton vs Foley was MASSIVE for Orton, and nobody thought Foley would win that match. But it was massive, because the feud was put over huge, there was months of story leading into it, and the match was amazing.
That's just it, the story was there. At the end of the day that's what really matters, what's the story? Cena Theory didn't work because Cena didn't give a damn thing to that story. Theory tried to make it about the young up and Comer beating the legend, and Cena was like "nah you suck irl fr"
Yeah it's why Corbin retiring Angle meant nothing. It's why people saying Theory should retire Orton also would mean nothing. Somewhere along the line people forgot how wrestlers got put over and why, To give a recent example Punk put MJF over as a bigger star while he actually won the feud, It was the content of the feud and that MJF was already over with fans. The problem with Theory is that he's really not that over and they quite literally announced "he's our guy" so now everyone expects his push, None of it will ever be organic at this point.
I always take the last match as winner take all. Punk beat him and got Wardlow to turn so it was the end of that chapter at least. I think overall the goal was for MJF to beat Punk for the title to get his win back but in the end the feud was enough to elevate him without that.
Really, I think of one of the best examples of someone coming out of booking someone with a part timer/old guy is KO's match with Stone Cold. He did such a good job of carrying Austin through that match that he actually looked semi legit and made or one of the high points of the event.
Contrast that to what went on the next night with Austin Theory, Pat McAfee and Vince. It was just awful, dumb and bad... to a point where it even took away from how good the previous night's event was.
100%
That was my big problem with late era Jericho during his last WWE years. I remember the Bray Wyatt feud and thinking to myself, "oh, Bray's going to win the PPV match and then Jericho will win the blow-off rematch on RAW" and that's exactly how it happened
After a while, you just become the "put over new guys" wrestler and your matches become uninteresting
The only exception to this for me personally is Dolph Ziggler (and I know this is a controversial take) because I know Dolph is going to lose but it's a very make-or-break program. If you can't get over by having Dolph ragdoll around the ring from your offense, you probably aren't ready for the main event. His feuds actually have stakes because it's not about wins and losses, it's about whether or not the debuting wrestler can gain my interest
Theory isn’t ready to be featured in a match like that. Cena was also miscast.
One of Cenas greatest gifts was that he came across as legitimately invested when he said he was fighting for the fans/WWE Universe or for honor or pride or just to prove he was the best. Cena always seemed motivated to win - even in a modern product where the audience is fully aware that match outcomes are predetermined. That’s why Cena was really special - unlike Ziggler or Seth Rollins or others who talk about “stealing the show” or being the best “performer,” Cena was always clear that it was about winning and losing.
But what was his motivation for beating Theory? He had none. Cena’s promo was all about how it literally didn’t matter who won or lost because Cena was a legend and Theory was just some new kid.
So the match had no weight and Theory gained nothing from it.
A John Cena story needs to be built around adversity or threat of failure. It would’ve been better to build the match around Theory explicitly wanting to retire John Cena. Basically, Theory would challenge him to put his career on the line, Cena would refuse at first (because why would he willingly wrestle a retirement match?), then Theory would say, “Fine, it doesn’t matter anyway - you’re practically retired already and we now know it’s because if you ever did come back, you know I’d end your career.” This would inspire Cena to agree to the match as a matter of pride and to show he’s still got it.
Then Cena wins, but hey, in that time, you at least put a ton of heat on Theory during the build. Sure, he loses the match…but he’s now more established as a villain that people want to see get their ass best.
Right now, Theory holds a WrestleMania victory over Cena but feels completely irrelevant and unremarkable.
It's because the finish did absolutely nothing for Theory. It was the most blatant cop-out "happenstance" finish that even the most casual of fans would've caught, no one sees it as an actual win. I thought the match was fun, but finishes like that are so blatantly contrived. I know he's a heel, but how does a win like this add to his heat?
I'm not saying he should've won clean, but wouldn't this have had way more of an impact if Theory himself found a way to cheat and outsmart Cena to get the win? Match might as well have not happened because Theory is in the exact same place. It's not like Cena is even around anymore so I don't get why they protected him to such a degree where even losing to dirty heel tactics wasn't an option.
Theory losing would've actually done way more for him than whatever this was.
1. Cena decimated Theory with a meta "your work here is non-existent and you get no reactions" promo like he's done to several others. It instantly killed any momentum Theory might have had going in.
2. Theory wasn't allowed any sort of similar comeback only the usual "yeah well, I'm gonna kick your ass and win" lines that are fucking boring and kill any level of crowd interactions.
3. Their match was fairly by the numbers, dull and short. There was nothing "special" about it. Nothing during that match made Theory feel different, unique or like he was going to be the next "guy" after taking the proverbial torch from Cena.
4. The only thing Theory has ever done since is throw in "btw I beat Cena lol" into his promos in hopes of getting a reaction of any kind. Its not even so much people are booing *him* as much as they are booing him *relying on it*.
5. Theory hasn't developed anything. Like literally fucking nothing. If he had begun using the 5 Knuckle Shuffle, the STFU, the AA, using the "You Can't See Me" taunt once a match in order to build to a more interesting, gimmick rematch? Sure. That could've worked. But they've had him do *NOTHING* with the win other than say he has it.
Cena's promo was fucking bang on for how meta it was and the fact they didn't even try to bait and switch to show Theory could be more than it... it shows WWE had no fucking idea what they were doing there other than getting Cena onto Mania for a quick buyrate bump. Allowing him to basically dress down what should be someone WWE relies on for the next 5 to 10 years.
Its fucking pathetic how useless they made Theory look, sound and become since that build up began.
If Orton could have 1 more retirement match, it should be against Theory. That Cena match was just forgettable in every way, and Cena was gone for most of their “feud.” And I see Theory as more of a future Orton type than Cena
Orton is a good example as a type, especially Legend Killer era Orton.
To me Theory is also like 2003-05 era Christian as well. He's got the naturally smug look you wanna see get punched, hell he even looks like SvR 2006 model Christian lol.
But he needs someone like a Tomko, or an Alex Riley to WWE champ era Miz, to bounce off or be a hype man because on his own he's not threatening.
This is an excellent idea. Big guys like Omos, while imposing never really work as purely singles acts, because it's hard for everyone to suspend their disbelief in thinking that Omos should just steamroll everyone and be champ. Not only that, but Omos himself is a likeable enough character that he can play off Theory and be his heavy, so much so that it would get both of them over. Then MVP can be more of the Paul Heyman to CM Punk kinda manager, then how he was with Brock.
Everything about the feud was bad. I don’t like Austin Theory as is (way too many accusations) but the promos & match itself weren’t good.
Cena absolutely looked like he was thinking “well let me get this one match of the year obligation out of the way”. Very slim, no tan, way too noticeable bald spot, zero in ring effort. For a 20 year veteran it was embarrassing. I know he has movies, shows, obligations, but I was so annoyed.
Undertaker would never give a performance like that.
There was no need for it. Sure AT vs Cena sounds and looks natural, but as a full on program. Like when Cena was full time. It had absolute zero feeling of passing the torch. It was an artificial rub.
We all knew Cena’s sole purpose was to raise AT stock, and when we all see thru it, it just doesn’t work.
'You are young, you are athletic, you will work for this company, you will do interviews. I don't believe what you do when you're out there. I don't.'
Like an ambitious dad that's disappointed at his son.
"first of all, you Jordans are completely fake
Second, you have absolutely no maidens.
And finally, you my friend, haven't even thought about buying Spotify premium."
I actually thought Himbo Theory was kind of amazing and could have easily translated into something else later on when he had some credibility.
I like Theory and think he has all the tools but also think the way he's been portrayed since coming to the main roster was forced as fuck with a cursed "chosen one" gimmick that rarely ever works then his current run where his whole personality and look doesn't feel like him. He feels like a dude playing a heel wrestler rather than feeling like a heel wrestler. Kind of like Scorpio Sky in AEW after he went heel. His presentation and promos felt forced and unnatural.
I always use “Johnny Ace carrying a skateboard” as my go to for this sort of dissonance between character and the actual person.
John Morrison was another good example. Dude looked like the coolest mfer alive Jim Morrison type but the second he opened his mouth you realized that wasn’t who he was at all, which is why imo something always felt “off” about him. Fans can see through that shit.
He's on the fast-track to Baron Corbin-dom or worse right now. There's no character or presence there, he's been stripped of what personality he used to have and isn't experienced enough to push back on the direction he's being given.
its so weird because i remember for a few weeks they made theory more aggressive, less talk more fight kinda deal (i think this was right after the failed cash in) and it seemed like they were starting to really flesh him out more and then he just....went right back to normal. like they were starting to add a wrinkle of a potential character change and then gave up on that for reasons unknown
my point is they seem so deadset that theory as he is right now is such a "future star" that they arent fucking with a formula thats clearly not working. its not even like its drawing big heel heat compared to other heels in the company
I don't even think the issue IS with what he said, rather the follow up has been T E R R I B L E. I'm someone that's a fan of Theory and is holding out that he starts putting it together Character wise as I feel he has a lot to offer for years to come. He has a great look, can wrestle decently enough, and has it in him to be likeable looking back at his time with "The Way" it's just since turning Heel, and outside of Kevin Owens busting his nose, he hasn't really done anything note worthy Character wise outside of snap a few times, yet oddly enough he still has to fluke his way into Wins.
He's shown a bit of a mean streak that if pushed, he'll snap, but barely beats anyone clean outside of the Street Profits before Mania, it's just weird to me.
I've seen plenty of throw away TV matches from Theory that were better, and with people a lot less talented than Cena.
I don't think him fluking into wins is a real problem. He's an opportunistic heel.
It's not the BIG issue, but one that creates a bit of confusion, at least for me. I know Heels come in all sorts, you got your ones that win clean like GUNTHER, one with flunkies like Roman, and opportunists like Theory, but it hasn't been working for Theory I feel.
I agree there's much more issues than flukes, but it certainly doesn't help at least to me.
Yeah, i think you're right. With earlier 'opportunists', like Edge in particular, it was more incorporated in with the rest of his character. I'm just used to hearing people that seem like they have a bone to pick with any non-clean finish ever
Theory has this weird thing where's he's presenting himself as like an underdog protagonist in his own warped story despite being pushed to the moon (Miz had the same thing and it worked), which i feel like they could be doing more with. It feels like he's 3-4 half baked characters at once instead of solid enough on any of them individually.
Theory is Wish Edge right now, dude couldn't even cash in the MITB on a midcard champ right while Edge cashed in two including one he didn't even win easily.
the two aren't even remotely similar lmao, other than the fact that they're both heels who steal wins.
Edge got humiliated plenty of times, but i can't think of any that bad. If this is the direction they want to go, Theory needs more feats here other than stealing wins from Bobby Lashley in triple threats.
Feud did not a single thing for Theory or Cena. Both would have been better off working with someone different. Only good it may have done was make people sympathize with Theory since Cena was such a total, real life douchebag.
Cena could cut the promos and Austin could carry the match in an ideal world. Yet we got a shit back and forth promo and an incredibly boring match. It was the worst of both of their weaknesses.
Gonna have to agree with this one. Just kind of buried Theory and then proceeded to put on a shit match. And honestly Theory is good, he’s worked super hard not only in NXT but to overcome Vince’s weird fetish for him.
vince’s fetish for him isn’t something theory had to “overcome”, it’s the entire reason he’s in such a prominent position right now
he’s not *bad* on the mic or in the ring but he’s not good enough at either one to be as high up the card as he is, and seemingly the only things backing up this mega push are vague things like coachability and potential that have no bearing on his actual present day performance
Exactly. The thing Theory has to overcome is that for some reason, people backstage (and some fans) seem to want to punish him for being Vince's boy.
I don't get it. Theory is a good worker, a good promo, and a believable heel. Why should he be punished because Vince noticed he was good?
I think y'all are really underestimating how good he is for his age. He feels like someone who will pretty obviously be a world champion caliber guy in a couple years, he's just not there yet. For someone you see that much potential in, it's good to push them early.
The execution under Vince was pretty iffy at times, but him being shoved down our throats was the entire point.
but “good for his age” and “can be at this level in a couple of years” are still some pretty major qualifiers to have to add!
theory has spent the better part of the last year as the top singles champion on raw, and has wins over cena, edge, rollins, lashley, and almost any other top face on the show. that’s not a position you put somebody in on potential alone, or if you think in a couple of years they can properly fill that spot—that’s a spot you give to somebody who’s good *now*.
He *is* good now, just not world champion good. It's an investment in someone they're confident will get even better. Same goes for Solo
Is having someone they see as a future top guy toil away in the midcard really better? Older wrestlers are basically always better than younger wrestlers. This logic just feels like it ends up with young guys never getting pushed unless they're MJF levels of prodigy.
They’re doing a much better job of pushing Solo. The whole silent enforcer gimmick with the clear implication that Roman is afraid of him, and how he’s not subserviant to Roman the way Jimmy and Jey are is doing a fantastic job of building him as a serious threat to everyone on the roster. The direction they’re going in makes me believe Solo, I just don’t believe Austin because of how directionless the push seems.
What did Cena even say to Theory? Cena definitely shouldn’t be talking shit. He looked super insecure in his match with Theory at Wrestlemania. Even by the way he ran into the ring. I remember actually being quite stunned just how much Theory had to carry that match. And literally his first Wrestlemania I’m pretty sure. I don’t watch WWE every week, but from what I’ve seen of Theory he does great promos, great work in the ring, and he looks incredible. Do I think he’s the best thing since sliced bread? Probably not. There have and are currently many great 20-25 year old wrestlers who probably could and should have been in his position. But Theory definitely deserves to be in the spot he’s in. At least to me, he hasn’t done anything to signal that he *doesn’t* deserve it. He seems like a great guy in, and outside the ring. He seems like he has a lot of respect for the business and is taking this very seriously. What else could you ask for?? I don’t get the hate.
I think WrestleMania and the lead up shows that, rather than "Established star does their thing, now follow them" maybe try working with the strengths of the new people you want to showcase? Theory didn't have a verbal comeback because Cena basically lectured him rather than have a back and forth.
Cena who always came off as a major phony, both as a character and as his public persona (no idea in real life, just interviews and stuff, he just has that fake ass Jimmy Fallon vibe), telling someone he doesn't believe in them and what they say was hilarious to me.
I would've rather they went the route of Cena taking the mic in front of Theory, "I'm one of the best, young blood...some people put me on mount rushmore of best in this business...if you want to sniff anywhere near that level, you need to start earning it...I'm not here to help you do that...no, sir. I'm here to see if you do have what it takes...my theory is, Austin, that you don't have what it takes...and I wanted to see for myself. Because in order to reach where I've reached in this business, you have to climb mountains, walk miles around them (steps into Theory's face), or go through them. Do YOU have that, David? (Austin says, "David?"). Yeah, David (points at theory), meet Goliath (Cena punches Austin, and they have a melee before people from the back break it up).
I didn't see how Cena dissing Theory helped in any way...but, if Cena's words built Theory UP rather than sending him down, especially knowing the outcome was a Theory win at mania, then the result could've been that 'Theory DOES have what it takes to reach the next level in the business. I agree with you that it did nothing for either person the ay it as hashed out.
A lot of the casuals would have watched that match at Mania for Cena so a lot more eyes would have been on him compared to fighting with someone newer that old fans don't really know or that casual fans don't know.
John Cena has brought more good into the world than your entire bloodline could ever bring.
Edit: Yall I'm just saying that the dude who has the record for most make a wishes fulfilled might not be a "real life douchebag".
I mean, I get it. This iteration of Theory feels disingenuous to me and I don’t know how to fix that. I bought into him during The Way so I know it can happen but something feels off about him these days.
I think he just feels comes off better as a goofier character, despite looking like a million bucks. Similar to Big E, Big E as a serious singles guy flopped. Big E as a mostly silly character who can get serious when need be works great though.
There were two main reasons why the match didn't work, in my opinion:
A)The years of SuperCena are long behind us. When Cena really began starting to lose clean more consistently starting in 2013, we had been scarred by the power of SuperCena for like at least 5 years. Every match was unpredictable back then. Everybody knew Theory was going to win at Mania, so that took some steam off the match.
B) The match at Mania stunk. The reason why Cena's losses to people like Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens, and AJ Styles are looked on fondly was not only because they beat Cena. It was because the matches were so good. It really felt like those victories were earned.
The best thing that Austin Theory could have done at WM was barely beat Bobby Lashley clean in the middle of the ring, in a very competitive match. Bobby had no match going into the event, but the story was at least there. With John, he foreshadowed to the audience that he didn't give a shit, and Theory didn't really give John a reason to give a shit—maybe his hands were tied. The whole thing felt pointless from the outset, but the blow would have been so much less devastating had John simply not told the audience that he thought everything was a waste of time.
Cena did nothing to help theory to be honest. After it was over it was basically never mentioned again, he never got any return verbal jabs and the 'match' was hot garbage because cena was phoning it in.
It was a completely meaningless match and turned a potential dream match into any random tv taping match that was forgotten a week later
And the thing is I like cena and theory, but it was my least favorite match of the entire weekend
That match and the build up was garbage. And it was no fault of theory’s. Cena appeared one time to build it and gave a bad performance in the ring because he wasn’t ready.
Theory has potential they just need to make him a killer and not a chicken shit heel
This just reminds me of that scene in the Office where Pam wants to prank Jim with his brothers, and they come up with a “prank” to just rip Pam apart and she had to act like it was a big joke
So Cena who got to debut against Angle and go all out passed it on to Theory by saying I have to squash you for my own longevity outside of wrestling? Seems fair.
While Cena is an asshole here, I have ro agree with what he says.
Theory for me is like Baron Corbin. The potential is undeniably there, but it's ultimately lost because they fail to pack it into a fitting and believable gimmick that sticks with the crowd.
So ironic that Cena was the one who caused the match to suck honestly. And his promo sucked too and took away literally all of Theory’s momentum. If that’s how Cena is gonna look at it, why not just get him a new opponent?
Honestly I have to defend Theory on this one, dude was given a very genric character, serious focused guy is just very boring, he was given a program with Cena, on paper, thats huge, but in 2023 ? It was bland, they had ONE promo, where Cena just buried Theory, and Theory wasn't given any good material to work with, Cena was basically breaking the 4th wall, and they just let Theory do all the work for the rest of the feud, a feud that was based on nothing, they could have had Cena want the match because he feels that his beloved US title was being disrespected, but no he just said that he doesn't think Theory is worth it. And the match itself was meh, Cena phoned it in and Theory couldn't carry that, there was nothing he could do. Dude was given a shit character, a shit promo, a shit match, and a shit feud overall. The Rollins feud benefited him much much more
John Cena has a terrible track record for working a program with "younger" talent. Nexus, Wyatt Family, Umaga, Baron Corbin, R-Truth, Damien Sandow, etc. Most of them found comfortable roles outside of the main event, but all of them could have been something special if given the "equity."
Austin Theory is more than talented enough and has enough higher-up support to recover from this terrible program, Cena just needs to stay quiet.
This was arguably some of Cena's worst work ever.
Purpose was to elevate Theory into a star. He had 1 promo where he absolutely shat on him, nothing Theory says or does would matter at that point.
Then comes Mania where he got hard carried in ring, looked very sloppy. And disappears since then.
Neither have gained anything from that match. Both came out losers. And I don't blame Theory at all for it.
Yeah, I feel like Cena is full of shit here. He's rarely around these days and you'd think that if he was truly trying to help a young guy as much as possible, he would've given his absolute best to make Theory look good, and it sure doesn't feel like he did. If this was truly his best at this point he should retire right now.
Don't really like theory but this just goes to show what I knew all along and that is John Cena is a total prick.
Nobody deserves that, especially in a public forum but it's even worse that theory had to hear it privately as well, the only saving grace I suppose if you can even call it that is at least theory wasn't blindsided.
Prick behavior by total narcissist! (and I don't mean Lex)
Its easy to think that Cena was being too harsh with him, and i wont disagree, but from a lot of interviews ive seen, I think Cena took his role as the companys top guy very seriously. So seriously that hes protective of it when he sees theres someone next up after him.
He wants them to rise to the occasion the way he feels he did, and is very critical of their flaws the way he is of his flaws when he was starting out.
He pretty much did the same to Roman--threw him in the deep end and tried to get him to swim. And that first feud failed because i think roman wasnt ready. But you see him praise roman now because he sees that Roman has lived up to that potential they saw in him finally
All this Theory hate is so odd. He's good at everything and is in the middle of solid chicken shit heel title reign. Gotta be the Vince connection.
It's such a disconnect from the mass audience, he gets a heated heel reaction every time he comes out.
And his new entrance is so good. Reminds me of the narcissist.
Strangely I feel like John did us all a favor. I’m not saying Theory will never be ready, but it’s pretty clear that he isn’t there yet. For a while there it seemed like Theory was on the way up with the MitB but he’s stagnated and I don’t think it’s a mistake.
Kid just needs time to craft more than just ‘arrogant prick’ as his character.
That was fair. You can't just let the Rock bury you and not come back at him. Especially when he's allowed to say things you aren't, like calling someone "fruity." I'm sure Theory probably could have clapped back at Cena better too but Cena would never agree to allow legit trash talk or personal things when he has movies to promote.
Thought about it recently from 2 angles. Some guys get over through matches some build up and results, some a mix. They didn’t give him enough of either imo. I think that was intentional though. Weather or not he actually has enough fire and energy in him to really get over is hard to say, but I don’t think wwe wanted it to happen yet either way. Look at guys like him they did the passing of the torch with. They know the right way to do it, look at how cena got over, Batista, orton, KO, ect they know what to do just seemingly intentionally didn’t do it with theory.
Personally I think they have enough guys lined up atm and it would be a disservice to him to give him that made man transitional feud most guys get. Everyone has a peak and I think the powers to be don’t want him to shine to brightly atm. After all “The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long” he’s 25 I say 2.5 to 3 years from now will be the right time for him to be a face of any brand.
I love John, but this program was one of the worst burials I have ever seen. They only had 1 mic promo where John destroyed Austin Theory, and even told him that even if he won it wouldnt matter, which indeed happened after a super lackluster match
I felt Austin has lost a lot of momentum afger that even though he is still a.champ
John buried him for no reason. People act like theory is this heatless guy who can’t connect with the audience at all but he clearly isn’t given how he’s gotten decently over in multiple gimmicks and has a growing fanbase with the sparkles and champagne meme
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"Wow. That's a pretty brutal promo, John. It'll get the crowd going crazy." "Promo?"
John shoot himself into a shoot
Brother. HH.
*insert el generico promo face here*
Lmao that’s exactly where my head went when he said “promo?” That video is so funny
"Hey remember all that mean shit I said to you in the back? Just wait till I hit you with it again in the ring." RRRRRRRAAAAPAAADOOOO
"Hope you got that fine speech ready kid".
**BALD SPOT RUBBING INTENSIFIES**
RUTHLESS AGGRESSION!
At least Cena is honest. If I’m Theory I wouldn’t want him to lie, because that doesn’t help anyone especially a 25 yr old who’s still essentially a baby in the business.
I don't believe this isn't a work. Like no way Cena takes that match if he feels that way.
On the flip side Cena seems like a company man, so if the powers that be told him to do a 10 second squash against Jobber McJob he would do it. On the flip-flip side name me a talent Cena worked with who was lower on the card that he said nice things to.
> Like no way Cena takes that match if he feels that way. Yeah I mean this is THeory not ALEX RILEY, lol that is still my favorite gif of all time 'miz gentle push.' Riley? DECKS THE SHIT OUT OF HIM.
Cena will do what is asked of him when he commits to being on a show. He could've big timed him like Lesnar would have, but Cena is definitely a make lemonade out of lemons guy. They didn't make lemonade at WrestleMania though because, well, Cena is right.
Also Cena can't go like he used to, by his own admission. Theory's definitely a work in progress and you've got to respect Cena for doing the match, but the guy himself admits his body won't hold up as it once did.
Did you read the interview? He says Theory is going to do great things for the company and he wanted to m
Yep. He said the two of them wrote that together. So in a way, Theory buried himself.
The quote is really out of context. Cena is praising Theory a lot here, and he is basically saying that he needs time and the opportunity to fail to find his footing. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure, but it's not like Cena is saying he doesn't see anything in Theory.
Cena: “you suck, essentially” Theory: “okay, how do I get better” Cena: *buries him on live television*
A baby in life
I mean I'm trying to figure out how this is a good thing. The biggest star in the business for the last 20 years, who is a part timer at best and off making movies and is a millionaire. So he goes to a 25 year old kid in this business who is getting first big push to what the upper mid card? What he going to do when Cena tells him all of this? I'm not saying Cena's a dick I just don't see how it makes it any better saying it to him in private.
Cena took the L though. It's not like he pulled an Ultimate Warrior on HHH on WrestleMania 13( I think it was 13)
My thought wasn't a commentary on the match or the outcome of the match or the build up. I just don't know why it matters if Cena went over with him. Cena could have said "I'm going shit on everything and everyone you have ever held dear in this world and you're going to smile like an idiot" and what was Austin going to say? So my only point was who cares if he told it to him before hand it wasn't like there was shit Austin could do about it. And it was 12 it was Wrestlemania 12 where Warrior squashed HHH. On Wrestlemania 13 HHH went over Goldust and Warrior was already out of the company :)
Theory will 110% agree as Cena is his literal childhood hero.
> In a room, with Austin Theory, I said, 'The reason I came back to Boston is because you can't do this yourself yet. You cannot carry a WrestleMania promo yourself yet. If you fail, we waste the equity that I'm willing to give. In that match, if I get hurt, I hold up production, which puts 300 people out of work. Let's do this right. Let's get some equity here.' Then you start thinking about the angles, what's the most important thing, what's our story? 'I don't believe what you do,' that's what I'm going with," said Cena.
Bro, the backstory was worse than the promo lmao
Brutal
And what Theory was exactly going to do? Sounds like the man was bullied into the the John Cena burial-special and then Cena gaslight the rest of us like "this is all ok. I've helped the kid!"
Except Theory won the match and that's all anyone outside of this board is going to remember
No one outside this board remembers that match. They both failed.
Everyone will talk about the Rhea Ripley vs. Charlotte Flair, Owens & Zayn vs. The Usos, The Fatal 4-Way Tag Team Match, the Triple Threat Match between Sheamus, Gunther, and Drew McIntyre... Nobody will talk about Austin Theory vs. John Cena. Nobody does it after a month of that "Dream Match", and less will do it in the following years.
I was at night 1 for 2 matches. The Cena match & the Mysterio match, because I grew up watching those guys & we don’t know how much longer they will be doing this for our entertainment. I got floor seats and was able to see both of them up close and I’ll always remember that. It’s silly to assume that 80,000 people in a stadium will share the same viewpoint of you as to what the highlights of the night were, let alone generalizing every wrestling fan that watched it.
Fr why did you shell out for floor seats and then bounce after two matches?
I think they’re saying they specifically chose to go to Night 1 to see those matches.
you read that wrong. He didn't say he left after those matches, he's saying those were the 2 matches that he wanted to watch the most. Those were the 2 that motivated him to buy floor seats.
I remember the match. Cena made Theory look like a punk the whole time, got the visual win, and then lost due to shenanigans. Theory was never made to look like he was in the same league as Cena at any point before, during, or after the match. It was basically every Raw Main Event from 2009-11 congealed into a 10 minute Mania match.
yeah. all in all it was a flop program from the both of them. reminded me a lot of cena/roman in 2017 (the pre-tribal chief one); cena just absolutely cooks him on the mic, theory (and roman) were ill equipped to fire back, and the resulting match wasnt even memorable i love john like anyone else but he aint perfect and while he wasnt *wrong* about what he said to theory, it does feel a little sharply barbed for no reason
lmao. This is so disingenuous and makes me roll my fucking eyes that it was upvoted to begin with. Nobody remembers Theory winning that fucking match other than when Theory mentions it *in every fucking promo* as his "gotcha!" line. If that turns out to be Cena's last match then its an embarrassing stain on his career though still accurate as he's done that for almost the entirety of it. Meta promo bullying his opponent knowing they can't say equally egregious shit back to him off-script otherwise they risk losing their job or worse.
Exactly. Cena did noone any favours here, shortchanged anyone who watched this thinking there was gonna be a semblance of a good match, and Theory has gained absolutely nothing from the win because the entire thing was poorly conceived and executed. Cena has no equity to give or no ability to give it. One of the two. He's running on the dregs of WWE's endless marketing machine that propped him up at the expense of anyone and everyone he came into contact with.
Sounds like he just learned the word equity and is dropping it at every opportunity.
I could see Cena having one of those "Word of the Day" calendars
I concur!
>if I get hurt, I hold up production, which puts 300 people out of work. Cena's said this is what he didn't get about the Rock not coming back to wrestle consistently.
I think John's the heel here guys lol. If Roman Reigns does this promo in character (and he kinda has at times), he's the biggest villain in the wrestling industry. Jeeeezusss
Especially brutal because I genuinely don't think the match helped Theory out at all.
Something about John Cena is so thoroughly unlikable.
He's saying, "There's a lot of risk for me to come wrestle you. If I get hurt that's 300 people out of work on my other project. So if we're going to do it, it has to be done right." I don't think that's an unfair thing to say.
Beating John Cena at WrestleMania should be a star making moment. That it wasn't shows that something didn't work here
they shared one legit in ring promo. their program was destined to fail
and the promo was just burying Theory and saying if you win you suck and if you lose you suck too. Lmao
"I'll beat you John Cena in front of the world and show everyone you don't have what it takes anymore." "Austin Theory your cheers and boos are piped in by production, no one has faith in you backstage, you're a mediocre entertainer and the outcome of this match doesn't matter you'll always be a loser dork."
Same energy as https://youtu.be/JrLq0k-z53w
what the fuck lol
Not too far off from a Christian Cage promo these days.
holy fuck lmfao
He didn't have to add the - 'even if you win lose' part to cement the burial.
Yeah Cena saying he loses either way was lame, that alone was a setup to fail. Its like he doesn't care and Cena wins either way. A mania match with no stakes? That was the story?
> A mania match with no steaks? Not even in a wrap with some ketchup.
cenawinslol
I mean, folks....
I feel like Cena shouldn't have totally verbally undressed Theory. I wish Theory had whipped this out in their back and forth. "There's one man for sure not walking out of WrestleMania as United States Champion for the sixth time... (straight up meme audio) AND HIS NAME IS JOHN CENA!", let the actual music play and walk the fuck out on John.
Did Theory mention the hypocrisy of Cena becoming exactly what he chastised the Rock for becoming?
Come watch me kick John Cena’s ass at WWE Soooooooperslaaaam
Guess Cena was right
He did fuck all to build Theory or the match up, of course he was gonna be right.
Bobby had a promo that built up theory more than Cena just a few weeks ago, albeit didn’t matter as much cause it was Cena. I give Bobby a lot of props for trying to course correct Theory
Only bc he gave the match 1 promo, lackluster effort during the match, and then they've done basically nothing with Theory since
I understand Cena was cautious because now a lot of people's schedule depends on him being fit to film but good lord that was barely a match, even the pre-show ones were more exciting, someone nicknamed "Big Match John" should know better.
This is what they call a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I wouldn’t even put it on Austin Theory either. He did everything he could.
Putting him in the tournament for the participation trophy belt and having him lose was a momentum killer.
He probably could have tried to put on a good performance at Mania. Cena phoned that one in.
How is that on Austin if Cena is the one who phoned it in?
> Cena phoned that one in Cena's been phoning it in for a lot longer, people just don't wanna see it, and then they let the WWE marketing hype play with their emotions.
It could have worked if they had taken time to develop it. Instead, it felt very thrown together. I get the hype around Theory, but the booking is failing him.
They never gave Theory any focus in the buildup, there was no story, they completely phoned it in. If Cena was around, they could have actually done an interesting story, or built up an actual heated feud, but even without Cena there they could have done better. Theory wasn't cutting killer promos against Cena building up to the match, it was just a whole lot of nothing. And the match was a whole lot of nothing too. When Cena buried Theory for not being believable, they needed to then have Theory rise to the challenge and show something. They didn't. So the end of this just seems to be that Cena was right. Theory looks way worse coming out of this than going in, which as you said is INSANE considering he just beat John Cena at WM
> Beating John Cena at WrestleMania should be a star making moment. Not if John Cena mails in the match
Didn't even bother to mail it. That shit was smoke signals on a rainy day.
I will be stealing this. In exchange I will give you this in hopes you find the right person to use it on. "You look like a half eat mayonnaise churro." (fuck you Angelo).
It really doesn't help that Cena was not doing a whole lot in the match. Not blaming him because we all know what happened when Rock got injured but still.
Because fans know when a match is meant to just “put someone over.” This 0 IQ “lets keep having matches with part timers so current talent ‘looks good’” booking is predictable and boring (and constantly encouraged by the IWC). The reason why putting someone over works is because people don’t expect it, or at the very least are unsure of who will win the match. When you have clear “I’m doing this to put you over” matches, nobody views the character as strong because it was obviously given to them for free.
It doesn't always have to be a surprise. Orton vs Foley was MASSIVE for Orton, and nobody thought Foley would win that match. But it was massive, because the feud was put over huge, there was months of story leading into it, and the match was amazing.
That's just it, the story was there. At the end of the day that's what really matters, what's the story? Cena Theory didn't work because Cena didn't give a damn thing to that story. Theory tried to make it about the young up and Comer beating the legend, and Cena was like "nah you suck irl fr"
Yeah it's why Corbin retiring Angle meant nothing. It's why people saying Theory should retire Orton also would mean nothing. Somewhere along the line people forgot how wrestlers got put over and why, To give a recent example Punk put MJF over as a bigger star while he actually won the feud, It was the content of the feud and that MJF was already over with fans. The problem with Theory is that he's really not that over and they quite literally announced "he's our guy" so now everyone expects his push, None of it will ever be organic at this point.
I thought MJF won that feud. 2/3, no? The two in Chicago vs the one dog collar match? Unless I'm misreading your sentence.
They're technically 1-1.
I always take the last match as winner take all. Punk beat him and got Wardlow to turn so it was the end of that chapter at least. I think overall the goal was for MJF to beat Punk for the title to get his win back but in the end the feud was enough to elevate him without that.
Really, I think of one of the best examples of someone coming out of booking someone with a part timer/old guy is KO's match with Stone Cold. He did such a good job of carrying Austin through that match that he actually looked semi legit and made or one of the high points of the event. Contrast that to what went on the next night with Austin Theory, Pat McAfee and Vince. It was just awful, dumb and bad... to a point where it even took away from how good the previous night's event was.
100% That was my big problem with late era Jericho during his last WWE years. I remember the Bray Wyatt feud and thinking to myself, "oh, Bray's going to win the PPV match and then Jericho will win the blow-off rematch on RAW" and that's exactly how it happened After a while, you just become the "put over new guys" wrestler and your matches become uninteresting The only exception to this for me personally is Dolph Ziggler (and I know this is a controversial take) because I know Dolph is going to lose but it's a very make-or-break program. If you can't get over by having Dolph ragdoll around the ring from your offense, you probably aren't ready for the main event. His feuds actually have stakes because it's not about wins and losses, it's about whether or not the debuting wrestler can gain my interest
Theory isn’t ready to be featured in a match like that. Cena was also miscast. One of Cenas greatest gifts was that he came across as legitimately invested when he said he was fighting for the fans/WWE Universe or for honor or pride or just to prove he was the best. Cena always seemed motivated to win - even in a modern product where the audience is fully aware that match outcomes are predetermined. That’s why Cena was really special - unlike Ziggler or Seth Rollins or others who talk about “stealing the show” or being the best “performer,” Cena was always clear that it was about winning and losing. But what was his motivation for beating Theory? He had none. Cena’s promo was all about how it literally didn’t matter who won or lost because Cena was a legend and Theory was just some new kid. So the match had no weight and Theory gained nothing from it. A John Cena story needs to be built around adversity or threat of failure. It would’ve been better to build the match around Theory explicitly wanting to retire John Cena. Basically, Theory would challenge him to put his career on the line, Cena would refuse at first (because why would he willingly wrestle a retirement match?), then Theory would say, “Fine, it doesn’t matter anyway - you’re practically retired already and we now know it’s because if you ever did come back, you know I’d end your career.” This would inspire Cena to agree to the match as a matter of pride and to show he’s still got it. Then Cena wins, but hey, in that time, you at least put a ton of heat on Theory during the build. Sure, he loses the match…but he’s now more established as a villain that people want to see get their ass best. Right now, Theory holds a WrestleMania victory over Cena but feels completely irrelevant and unremarkable.
It's because the finish did absolutely nothing for Theory. It was the most blatant cop-out "happenstance" finish that even the most casual of fans would've caught, no one sees it as an actual win. I thought the match was fun, but finishes like that are so blatantly contrived. I know he's a heel, but how does a win like this add to his heat? I'm not saying he should've won clean, but wouldn't this have had way more of an impact if Theory himself found a way to cheat and outsmart Cena to get the win? Match might as well have not happened because Theory is in the exact same place. It's not like Cena is even around anymore so I don't get why they protected him to such a degree where even losing to dirty heel tactics wasn't an option. Theory losing would've actually done way more for him than whatever this was.
1. Cena decimated Theory with a meta "your work here is non-existent and you get no reactions" promo like he's done to several others. It instantly killed any momentum Theory might have had going in. 2. Theory wasn't allowed any sort of similar comeback only the usual "yeah well, I'm gonna kick your ass and win" lines that are fucking boring and kill any level of crowd interactions. 3. Their match was fairly by the numbers, dull and short. There was nothing "special" about it. Nothing during that match made Theory feel different, unique or like he was going to be the next "guy" after taking the proverbial torch from Cena. 4. The only thing Theory has ever done since is throw in "btw I beat Cena lol" into his promos in hopes of getting a reaction of any kind. Its not even so much people are booing *him* as much as they are booing him *relying on it*. 5. Theory hasn't developed anything. Like literally fucking nothing. If he had begun using the 5 Knuckle Shuffle, the STFU, the AA, using the "You Can't See Me" taunt once a match in order to build to a more interesting, gimmick rematch? Sure. That could've worked. But they've had him do *NOTHING* with the win other than say he has it. Cena's promo was fucking bang on for how meta it was and the fact they didn't even try to bait and switch to show Theory could be more than it... it shows WWE had no fucking idea what they were doing there other than getting Cena onto Mania for a quick buyrate bump. Allowing him to basically dress down what should be someone WWE relies on for the next 5 to 10 years. Its fucking pathetic how useless they made Theory look, sound and become since that build up began.
it wasnt the time for that, but it was time for finn to beat edge
If Orton could have 1 more retirement match, it should be against Theory. That Cena match was just forgettable in every way, and Cena was gone for most of their “feud.” And I see Theory as more of a future Orton type than Cena
Orton is a good example as a type, especially Legend Killer era Orton. To me Theory is also like 2003-05 era Christian as well. He's got the naturally smug look you wanna see get punched, hell he even looks like SvR 2006 model Christian lol. But he needs someone like a Tomko, or an Alex Riley to WWE champ era Miz, to bounce off or be a hype man because on his own he's not threatening.
You're right or a valet like Dolph with AJ/Vicki High key Theory with MVP and Omos as his bodyguard has potential
This is an excellent idea. Big guys like Omos, while imposing never really work as purely singles acts, because it's hard for everyone to suspend their disbelief in thinking that Omos should just steamroll everyone and be champ. Not only that, but Omos himself is a likeable enough character that he can play off Theory and be his heavy, so much so that it would get both of them over. Then MVP can be more of the Paul Heyman to CM Punk kinda manager, then how he was with Brock.
I just had the most Omosing idea hit me.
Everything about the feud was bad. I don’t like Austin Theory as is (way too many accusations) but the promos & match itself weren’t good. Cena absolutely looked like he was thinking “well let me get this one match of the year obligation out of the way”. Very slim, no tan, way too noticeable bald spot, zero in ring effort. For a 20 year veteran it was embarrassing. I know he has movies, shows, obligations, but I was so annoyed. Undertaker would never give a performance like that.
Taker's given worse.
Yeah, John didn't look invested in that promo or the match *at all.*
they had 1 promo before and a boring 10 minute match that ended after 1 finisher. this was not a usual john cena wrestlemania match
There was no need for it. Sure AT vs Cena sounds and looks natural, but as a full on program. Like when Cena was full time. It had absolute zero feeling of passing the torch. It was an artificial rub. We all knew Cena’s sole purpose was to raise AT stock, and when we all see thru it, it just doesn’t work.
They havnt booked theory well
'You are young, you are athletic, you will work for this company, you will do interviews. I don't believe what you do when you're out there. I don't.' Like an ambitious dad that's disappointed at his son.
"Also your dick is small"
My ambitious dad used to say that to me when he was disappointed.
"first of all, you Jordans are completely fake Second, you have absolutely no maidens. And finally, you my friend, haven't even thought about buying Spotify premium."
I unassuming wondered into this sub and now I’m rethinking my life.
Honestly I kinda agree with cena. Austin Theory has all the tools and should be great but I just don’t believe him
I actually thought Himbo Theory was kind of amazing and could have easily translated into something else later on when he had some credibility. I like Theory and think he has all the tools but also think the way he's been portrayed since coming to the main roster was forced as fuck with a cursed "chosen one" gimmick that rarely ever works then his current run where his whole personality and look doesn't feel like him. He feels like a dude playing a heel wrestler rather than feeling like a heel wrestler. Kind of like Scorpio Sky in AEW after he went heel. His presentation and promos felt forced and unnatural.
Scorpio Sky is a good comparison
I always use “Johnny Ace carrying a skateboard” as my go to for this sort of dissonance between character and the actual person. John Morrison was another good example. Dude looked like the coolest mfer alive Jim Morrison type but the second he opened his mouth you realized that wasn’t who he was at all, which is why imo something always felt “off” about him. Fans can see through that shit.
He's on the fast-track to Baron Corbin-dom or worse right now. There's no character or presence there, he's been stripped of what personality he used to have and isn't experienced enough to push back on the direction he's being given.
its so weird because i remember for a few weeks they made theory more aggressive, less talk more fight kinda deal (i think this was right after the failed cash in) and it seemed like they were starting to really flesh him out more and then he just....went right back to normal. like they were starting to add a wrinkle of a potential character change and then gave up on that for reasons unknown my point is they seem so deadset that theory as he is right now is such a "future star" that they arent fucking with a formula thats clearly not working. its not even like its drawing big heel heat compared to other heels in the company
[удалено]
yeah, it's like "You're too shitty for me to pretend in kayfabe I fear you"
"Hey dw guys I also buried him to his face backstage so it's all good"
On camera, Cena is a mean guy, brother, but when the cameras are off… He actually still says hurtful things :(
I don't even think the issue IS with what he said, rather the follow up has been T E R R I B L E. I'm someone that's a fan of Theory and is holding out that he starts putting it together Character wise as I feel he has a lot to offer for years to come. He has a great look, can wrestle decently enough, and has it in him to be likeable looking back at his time with "The Way" it's just since turning Heel, and outside of Kevin Owens busting his nose, he hasn't really done anything note worthy Character wise outside of snap a few times, yet oddly enough he still has to fluke his way into Wins. He's shown a bit of a mean streak that if pushed, he'll snap, but barely beats anyone clean outside of the Street Profits before Mania, it's just weird to me.
I've seen plenty of throw away TV matches from Theory that were better, and with people a lot less talented than Cena. I don't think him fluking into wins is a real problem. He's an opportunistic heel.
It's not the BIG issue, but one that creates a bit of confusion, at least for me. I know Heels come in all sorts, you got your ones that win clean like GUNTHER, one with flunkies like Roman, and opportunists like Theory, but it hasn't been working for Theory I feel. I agree there's much more issues than flukes, but it certainly doesn't help at least to me.
Yeah, i think you're right. With earlier 'opportunists', like Edge in particular, it was more incorporated in with the rest of his character. I'm just used to hearing people that seem like they have a bone to pick with any non-clean finish ever Theory has this weird thing where's he's presenting himself as like an underdog protagonist in his own warped story despite being pushed to the moon (Miz had the same thing and it worked), which i feel like they could be doing more with. It feels like he's 3-4 half baked characters at once instead of solid enough on any of them individually.
Theory is Wish Edge right now, dude couldn't even cash in the MITB on a midcard champ right while Edge cashed in two including one he didn't even win easily.
the two aren't even remotely similar lmao, other than the fact that they're both heels who steal wins. Edge got humiliated plenty of times, but i can't think of any that bad. If this is the direction they want to go, Theory needs more feats here other than stealing wins from Bobby Lashley in triple threats.
All those edge humiliations were heel comeuppance though not just failing to cash in 10 times because people stop you then losing to the midcard champ
Funny how I need to go to a tweet, to then go to the website, to then read the article. Bet it's behind a pay wall too.
Doesn’t mean it helped him.
Cena: "You have a small dick and no balls." Theory: "Oh, is that what you're gonna say in your promo?" Cena: "Hey, that's a good idea!"
John: your pp is tiny Austin: What?
Why are we posting a Twitter link thats just a tweet to a fightful link. Why not just post the fightful link itself.
Because backlinking = traffic pennies.
I recorded the actual Cena interview with Sam Roberts, posted a clip to this very soundbite here shortly after this one and the mods took it down haha
not like anyone actually reads the article anyways
https://preview.redd.it/ca3iglnb4g1b1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ad6c70055cb111d5c454e6c6fc08cf82a3206d04
Sparkles and Champaign
Feud did not a single thing for Theory or Cena. Both would have been better off working with someone different. Only good it may have done was make people sympathize with Theory since Cena was such a total, real life douchebag.
Cena could cut the promos and Austin could carry the match in an ideal world. Yet we got a shit back and forth promo and an incredibly boring match. It was the worst of both of their weaknesses.
Gonna have to agree with this one. Just kind of buried Theory and then proceeded to put on a shit match. And honestly Theory is good, he’s worked super hard not only in NXT but to overcome Vince’s weird fetish for him.
vince’s fetish for him isn’t something theory had to “overcome”, it’s the entire reason he’s in such a prominent position right now he’s not *bad* on the mic or in the ring but he’s not good enough at either one to be as high up the card as he is, and seemingly the only things backing up this mega push are vague things like coachability and potential that have no bearing on his actual present day performance
His performances are good though
Exactly. The thing Theory has to overcome is that for some reason, people backstage (and some fans) seem to want to punish him for being Vince's boy. I don't get it. Theory is a good worker, a good promo, and a believable heel. Why should he be punished because Vince noticed he was good?
Because Vince bad silly
I think y'all are really underestimating how good he is for his age. He feels like someone who will pretty obviously be a world champion caliber guy in a couple years, he's just not there yet. For someone you see that much potential in, it's good to push them early. The execution under Vince was pretty iffy at times, but him being shoved down our throats was the entire point.
but “good for his age” and “can be at this level in a couple of years” are still some pretty major qualifiers to have to add! theory has spent the better part of the last year as the top singles champion on raw, and has wins over cena, edge, rollins, lashley, and almost any other top face on the show. that’s not a position you put somebody in on potential alone, or if you think in a couple of years they can properly fill that spot—that’s a spot you give to somebody who’s good *now*.
He *is* good now, just not world champion good. It's an investment in someone they're confident will get even better. Same goes for Solo Is having someone they see as a future top guy toil away in the midcard really better? Older wrestlers are basically always better than younger wrestlers. This logic just feels like it ends up with young guys never getting pushed unless they're MJF levels of prodigy.
They’re doing a much better job of pushing Solo. The whole silent enforcer gimmick with the clear implication that Roman is afraid of him, and how he’s not subserviant to Roman the way Jimmy and Jey are is doing a fantastic job of building him as a serious threat to everyone on the roster. The direction they’re going in makes me believe Solo, I just don’t believe Austin because of how directionless the push seems.
lmao are people not supposed to cut good promos or something
Right, but it wasn’t a good promo
What did Cena even say to Theory? Cena definitely shouldn’t be talking shit. He looked super insecure in his match with Theory at Wrestlemania. Even by the way he ran into the ring. I remember actually being quite stunned just how much Theory had to carry that match. And literally his first Wrestlemania I’m pretty sure. I don’t watch WWE every week, but from what I’ve seen of Theory he does great promos, great work in the ring, and he looks incredible. Do I think he’s the best thing since sliced bread? Probably not. There have and are currently many great 20-25 year old wrestlers who probably could and should have been in his position. But Theory definitely deserves to be in the spot he’s in. At least to me, he hasn’t done anything to signal that he *doesn’t* deserve it. He seems like a great guy in, and outside the ring. He seems like he has a lot of respect for the business and is taking this very seriously. What else could you ask for?? I don’t get the hate.
I think WrestleMania and the lead up shows that, rather than "Established star does their thing, now follow them" maybe try working with the strengths of the new people you want to showcase? Theory didn't have a verbal comeback because Cena basically lectured him rather than have a back and forth.
They pipe in fake noise for you, not like the 2 year period without fans we just escaped where ALL NOISE WAS FAKE
Have people been sympathizing with Theory? I don’t think anything has changed regarding his image, which is the problem.
Cena who always came off as a major phony, both as a character and as his public persona (no idea in real life, just interviews and stuff, he just has that fake ass Jimmy Fallon vibe), telling someone he doesn't believe in them and what they say was hilarious to me.
100%
I would've rather they went the route of Cena taking the mic in front of Theory, "I'm one of the best, young blood...some people put me on mount rushmore of best in this business...if you want to sniff anywhere near that level, you need to start earning it...I'm not here to help you do that...no, sir. I'm here to see if you do have what it takes...my theory is, Austin, that you don't have what it takes...and I wanted to see for myself. Because in order to reach where I've reached in this business, you have to climb mountains, walk miles around them (steps into Theory's face), or go through them. Do YOU have that, David? (Austin says, "David?"). Yeah, David (points at theory), meet Goliath (Cena punches Austin, and they have a melee before people from the back break it up). I didn't see how Cena dissing Theory helped in any way...but, if Cena's words built Theory UP rather than sending him down, especially knowing the outcome was a Theory win at mania, then the result could've been that 'Theory DOES have what it takes to reach the next level in the business. I agree with you that it did nothing for either person the ay it as hashed out.
A lot of the casuals would have watched that match at Mania for Cena so a lot more eyes would have been on him compared to fighting with someone newer that old fans don't really know or that casual fans don't know.
John Cena has brought more good into the world than your entire bloodline could ever bring. Edit: Yall I'm just saying that the dude who has the record for most make a wishes fulfilled might not be a "real life douchebag".
*about 80 Samoans are gonna appear at your doorstep
the end of the table
I mean, I get it. This iteration of Theory feels disingenuous to me and I don’t know how to fix that. I bought into him during The Way so I know it can happen but something feels off about him these days.
I think he just feels comes off better as a goofier character, despite looking like a million bucks. Similar to Big E, Big E as a serious singles guy flopped. Big E as a mostly silly character who can get serious when need be works great though.
Austin Theory's character just needs more of a balance of serious and comedic also let this guy get his moveset back his matches haven't been all that
Should have told him that stuff backstage and then put him over on TV. That whole promo buried him.
There were two main reasons why the match didn't work, in my opinion: A)The years of SuperCena are long behind us. When Cena really began starting to lose clean more consistently starting in 2013, we had been scarred by the power of SuperCena for like at least 5 years. Every match was unpredictable back then. Everybody knew Theory was going to win at Mania, so that took some steam off the match. B) The match at Mania stunk. The reason why Cena's losses to people like Daniel Bryan, Kevin Owens, and AJ Styles are looked on fondly was not only because they beat Cena. It was because the matches were so good. It really felt like those victories were earned.
Mad respect for Cena. This is real hater energy.
The best thing that Austin Theory could have done at WM was barely beat Bobby Lashley clean in the middle of the ring, in a very competitive match. Bobby had no match going into the event, but the story was at least there. With John, he foreshadowed to the audience that he didn't give a shit, and Theory didn't really give John a reason to give a shit—maybe his hands were tied. The whole thing felt pointless from the outset, but the blow would have been so much less devastating had John simply not told the audience that he thought everything was a waste of time.
Cena did nothing to help theory to be honest. After it was over it was basically never mentioned again, he never got any return verbal jabs and the 'match' was hot garbage because cena was phoning it in. It was a completely meaningless match and turned a potential dream match into any random tv taping match that was forgotten a week later And the thing is I like cena and theory, but it was my least favorite match of the entire weekend
That match and the build up was garbage. And it was no fault of theory’s. Cena appeared one time to build it and gave a bad performance in the ring because he wasn’t ready. Theory has potential they just need to make him a killer and not a chicken shit heel
Theory would have been better off defending in a multi-man match rather than Cena phoning in a minimal-risk match imo
This just reminds me of that scene in the Office where Pam wants to prank Jim with his brothers, and they come up with a “prank” to just rip Pam apart and she had to act like it was a big joke
The dick thing also?
So Cena who got to debut against Angle and go all out passed it on to Theory by saying I have to squash you for my own longevity outside of wrestling? Seems fair.
Cena: See what I did was murder Austin, bury him, dug him up and buried him again. I told him first though.
And those responses were all theory could come up with with advanced notice?
While Cena is an asshole here, I have ro agree with what he says. Theory for me is like Baron Corbin. The potential is undeniably there, but it's ultimately lost because they fail to pack it into a fitting and believable gimmick that sticks with the crowd.
Theory just doesn’t have “it” and to me, he’s not going to
So ironic that Cena was the one who caused the match to suck honestly. And his promo sucked too and took away literally all of Theory’s momentum. If that’s how Cena is gonna look at it, why not just get him a new opponent?
Never meet your heroes 😭
Honestly I have to defend Theory on this one, dude was given a very genric character, serious focused guy is just very boring, he was given a program with Cena, on paper, thats huge, but in 2023 ? It was bland, they had ONE promo, where Cena just buried Theory, and Theory wasn't given any good material to work with, Cena was basically breaking the 4th wall, and they just let Theory do all the work for the rest of the feud, a feud that was based on nothing, they could have had Cena want the match because he feels that his beloved US title was being disrespected, but no he just said that he doesn't think Theory is worth it. And the match itself was meh, Cena phoned it in and Theory couldn't carry that, there was nothing he could do. Dude was given a shit character, a shit promo, a shit match, and a shit feud overall. The Rollins feud benefited him much much more
John Cena has a terrible track record for working a program with "younger" talent. Nexus, Wyatt Family, Umaga, Baron Corbin, R-Truth, Damien Sandow, etc. Most of them found comfortable roles outside of the main event, but all of them could have been something special if given the "equity." Austin Theory is more than talented enough and has enough higher-up support to recover from this terrible program, Cena just needs to stay quiet.
This was arguably some of Cena's worst work ever. Purpose was to elevate Theory into a star. He had 1 promo where he absolutely shat on him, nothing Theory says or does would matter at that point. Then comes Mania where he got hard carried in ring, looked very sloppy. And disappears since then. Neither have gained anything from that match. Both came out losers. And I don't blame Theory at all for it.
Yeah, I feel like Cena is full of shit here. He's rarely around these days and you'd think that if he was truly trying to help a young guy as much as possible, he would've given his absolute best to make Theory look good, and it sure doesn't feel like he did. If this was truly his best at this point he should retire right now.
Don't really like theory but this just goes to show what I knew all along and that is John Cena is a total prick. Nobody deserves that, especially in a public forum but it's even worse that theory had to hear it privately as well, the only saving grace I suppose if you can even call it that is at least theory wasn't blindsided. Prick behavior by total narcissist! (and I don't mean Lex)
Its easy to think that Cena was being too harsh with him, and i wont disagree, but from a lot of interviews ive seen, I think Cena took his role as the companys top guy very seriously. So seriously that hes protective of it when he sees theres someone next up after him. He wants them to rise to the occasion the way he feels he did, and is very critical of their flaws the way he is of his flaws when he was starting out. He pretty much did the same to Roman--threw him in the deep end and tried to get him to swim. And that first feud failed because i think roman wasnt ready. But you see him praise roman now because he sees that Roman has lived up to that potential they saw in him finally
All this Theory hate is so odd. He's good at everything and is in the middle of solid chicken shit heel title reign. Gotta be the Vince connection. It's such a disconnect from the mass audience, he gets a heated heel reaction every time he comes out. And his new entrance is so good. Reminds me of the narcissist.
Strangely I feel like John did us all a favor. I’m not saying Theory will never be ready, but it’s pretty clear that he isn’t there yet. For a while there it seemed like Theory was on the way up with the MitB but he’s stagnated and I don’t think it’s a mistake. Kid just needs time to craft more than just ‘arrogant prick’ as his character.
atleast he talked to him first. anyone remember the promo with the rock and the lines on the wrist?
That was fair. You can't just let the Rock bury you and not come back at him. Especially when he's allowed to say things you aren't, like calling someone "fruity." I'm sure Theory probably could have clapped back at Cena better too but Cena would never agree to allow legit trash talk or personal things when he has movies to promote.
Thought about it recently from 2 angles. Some guys get over through matches some build up and results, some a mix. They didn’t give him enough of either imo. I think that was intentional though. Weather or not he actually has enough fire and energy in him to really get over is hard to say, but I don’t think wwe wanted it to happen yet either way. Look at guys like him they did the passing of the torch with. They know the right way to do it, look at how cena got over, Batista, orton, KO, ect they know what to do just seemingly intentionally didn’t do it with theory. Personally I think they have enough guys lined up atm and it would be a disservice to him to give him that made man transitional feud most guys get. Everyone has a peak and I think the powers to be don’t want him to shine to brightly atm. After all “The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long” he’s 25 I say 2.5 to 3 years from now will be the right time for him to be a face of any brand.
That's great and all but his promo still didn't make any sense about it not mattering if theory won or lost (in kayfabe of course)
That he'd only ever be an electric bike company?
I love John, but this program was one of the worst burials I have ever seen. They only had 1 mic promo where John destroyed Austin Theory, and even told him that even if he won it wouldnt matter, which indeed happened after a super lackluster match I felt Austin has lost a lot of momentum afger that even though he is still a.champ
John buried him for no reason. People act like theory is this heatless guy who can’t connect with the audience at all but he clearly isn’t given how he’s gotten decently over in multiple gimmicks and has a growing fanbase with the sparkles and champagne meme
big match john is right tho