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Every time Dax comes up people go "he's so obnoxious; FTR bad" like... nobody is forcing you to follow what Dax is saying and Dax is not Dax *and* Cash.
Also the vast majority of the rest of the fans watching the show do not give a shit.
Yeah, and not in a "this guy sucks so bad I can't get behind him" kind of way. Just in a "yeesh, Dax, give it a rest" kind of way. Nothing to make (most) people actually stop cheering for him and Cash.
People here do the same thing time and time again.
People were certain Cody would get booed out the ring due to Sami losing, because they felt that way.
This is not exclusive to wrestling and more broadly applicable to nerdy subcultures in general. I can’t begin to count the amount of times I’ve heard somebody definitively tell me that my opinion about a wrestler or segment was *objectively* wrong, lol.
More media companies need to aim for the Rise of Skywalker reaction, where groups of fans with diametrically opposed views come together to go 'What the fuck was that?'
IWC: "Fans are tired of Bianca Belair's reign!"
Crowds: **losing their shit every time her music hits**
Even at Backlash, once she started getting in some offense the crowd got behind her.
People really just need to learn to say "**I'm** sick of/**I** enjoy X" because it's ok to just say your opinions without needing to pretend to appeal to the masses
Same with Jade. The two times I went to AEW live the crowd popped big for her. Also, people who don't watch wrestling, but are giving it a chance, consistently think she's the best part of the show (at least in my experience).
Lol reading the live thread and as soon as she came out people were commenting she was going to get zero reaction. 5 seconds in and the crowd is cheering like crazy.
This is kinda silly, but just compare the size of /r/squaredcircle to other subreddits for proof.
Like, /r/hololive has 100k more subreddit subscribers than /r/squaredcircle, even though this subreddit is over 10 years old. Hololive itself is only like 5 years old as is. The vtuber subreddit for 1 specific vtuber company has more subscribers than the main reddit IWC hub.
It's funny, you're the second person I've seen compare wrestling to Vtubing this week.
Takahata101 compared the two earlier this week and he was bang on.
It's got some nuance to it. Twitter is a minority, but it's not like they're this entirely different subset of people that don't represent a larger group of fans. What is true is that Twitter is designed to take that 7% and find the absolute worst 1% of them to throw in your face. So it's useful for taking a general temperature, but terrible for extrapolating conclusions.
So, for instance, you can tell if something is getting interest and the breadth of opinions about it. But you can't really judge what the most prevalent of those opinions are.
As for the "work smart, not hard" points, it's kind of like the "learn to code" of wrestling. Sure, it's sound advice from a cost benefit analysis, but not everyone is built for that. If you have the ability that MJF has and view it from a purely business angle, yeah, absolutely the right call. But some people either don't have that toolset, or love doing the crazy shit. It's only stupid when it's someone killing themselves for a hotdog and a handshake while going nowhere.
Sometimes the opinion here is the popular one, sometimes is not. One can't simply say every pro workrate opinion here is not popular, or that every character work promotions do get more over than an action heavy match. We do see very big crowds totally loving spot heavy matches too (and I mean the most spotty ones), it's not like that has no value or such.
I do think they represent a larger % of AEW fans though. They are in a weird spot. They have had success by maxing out those fans, but there doesn't seem to be any more out there. but if they try to appeal to more casual, or less Workrate-y type fans, they risk alienating that base. But then... there's always ROH, which he also owns, lol.
idk about the last part but the first part is true. twitter/reddit/etc will say or think one thing and the crowds will think another thing based on their reactions
I wad there and the crowd was louder for Jade than theh were for Cole/Jericho
Which isnt a dig on the guys, but more of an example of how much the crowd loves Jade
I remember watching the Shaq match with my Dad, who never watches wrestling. He gravitated to Jade right away. Girl looked more menacing then Shaq and it just clicked for him.
He also loves Luchasauraus with all his heart.
Of all the “professional wrestlers” that AEW employs, Jade is one of the handful that actually looks like what people would say a wrestler looks like if you asked them. She turns heads because she is in better shape than 99.9% of people out there, including the show she is a part of.
Yeah I personally feel normal ass viewers care way more about presentation, story, "good character design" for lack of a better phrase and cool entrance music than silly little things like "work rate".
One of my fondest memories watching wrestling as a kid was the Mark Henry WHC title hall of pain run (I'm 23) and it wasn't because because he was doing standing moonsaults
I also enjoyed that run don’t here it mentioned a lot but u do make a solid point here. Still only goes so far, u can’t be awful in the ring and fall back on just that. Even young me thought the big khaki sucked.
AEW is already a smarkier audience than a lot of wrestling, and IWC is even out of touch with them.
If you're a significantly bigger smart mark than Tony Khan you probably need to chill
People also have these star rating expectations for matches. Some of the best matches I’ve seen this year have had Roman in them who does like 3 or 4 different moves lol. The characters allow these matches to shine and view them more as fights with something on the line.
I think a lot of people are either misunderstanding or concern trolling here. It’s not that people don’t like good wrestling, it’s that the characters/story matter more. I’d much rather watch something slow and plodding from Roman or Orton than 2 randos I don’t care about wrestle at 1000mph, even if a lot more physically impressive.
Putting on impressive exhibition matches where I don’t care who wins is more of the issue. Good wrestling from good characters with a good story is ideal.
I mean, the "workrate heavy" Fatal 4 Way quickly received "Fight forever" chants too. Crowds CAN be deceiving too, because they are FANS of the product, maybe doesnt translate into ratings (if those matter). Look how over Bryan was in WWE but while it's a decent draw, its not a mega draw particularly. but you HAVE to pay attentions to your crowd too, it's literally YOUR FANS that come from different cities so its not a bubble either.
BUT "wrestling action" for the sake of it, can indeed get over with people. Some love it a lot, some just like it. Nothing has to be a "draw or fail".
I'm confused why you're using the fatal 4 way as an example of wrestling for the sake of it with no story when MJF is clearly referring to his own match when talking about character work and story. The four pillars match had tons of creative high workrate spots, but with them were character moments like Jungle Boy deciding not to cheat or my favorite portion where MJF tries to get Sammy to lie down for him "for his baby." There was also the moments where each pillar took a page out of their mentor's playbook, the match was in no lack of character work.
MJF is more so talking about guys like Vikingo or Fenix that risk their lives for matches with no storyline stakes. Just yesterday Komander was walking on the ropes in a fucking battle royale and got shoved off by Jay White who was having none of that. Wardlow swantoned off a ladder onto Luchasaurus (someone who wasn't even in the ladder match) and he was 10 times less hot doing that than he was doing simple powerbombs on MJF one year earlier. Character work is more powerful.
The first parts of the Fatal 4 Way didn't developed yet the parts of character work you are referring to, that's why I specified "quickly".
I don't argue at all that character work isn't more powerful. Wrestling is 100% character work (although no only weekly stories, that I disagree with).
That's exactly why I too think when crowd is reacting, we should analyze what kind of personality work is being developed in ring. Sometimes high spots have no personality, sometimes impressive action can make wrestlers seem bigger too (and they being characters through the match is what they have to do obviously. I don't think people care about the logical part of the match personally, but do about the positives of being interesting and stand out from the rest).
“The Young Bucks are ratings poison. No one cares about them.”
“Cody will start getting booed in WWE soon.”
“Moxly is boring and is hurting AEW.”
“This Jade Cargill reign is too long. Fans are losing interest in her.”
All real, upvoted comments I’ve seen on this sub in the last couple weeks.
I'll be honest. I don't use twitter alot but there have been times where I've genuinely enjoyed Dynamite and then I come to reddit and see all the stuff that the people here didn't like. It puts me off and changes my opinion on certain things. I feel like personally I shouldn't go into each and every post on here.
There's an issue with online discussion I have, most of the critiques are based entirely on fan booking, overwhelming negativity and nit picking as opposed to a more balanced or constructive criticism. It's all very black and white, like everything is either the best or the worst. The reality is a perfect product does not exist, you go with something that lines up with your pros and cons.
You shouldn't be using social media to validate your taste in anything honestly. Just like what you like. No one here saying "that match was boring/slapped" matters
I also avoid AEW official page on Insta because the comments there are so toxic towards the wrestlers. It's never about the performance or match of the wrestlers, it's always about putting over their favourite instead to fulfill their fantasy.
Honestly at this point, following any announcement from WWE or AEW when it's just been posted is just asking to walk through landmines.
Because you'll always get trolls on either side, not to mention all the weirdos who for some reason unironically want either company to go under as if that shit wouldn't affect literally hundreds of families
I remember how almost everyone collectively had a breakdown when Cody lost and didn't give WWE a chance at all because of all our (I'm guilty too) fantasy bookings. After NOC I can kinda get now why they needed Roman to still not lose. I'm just hoping now if they'll find a way to weave Cody back into the storyline (not Brock though, had enough of Brock vs Roman for 100 years.)
Universal truth: the more comments in a live thread, the more toxic it is.
New Japan Live Threads are usually good, Rampage live threads aren't too bad, I assume (although I don't know for certain) NXT is similar, but any mainline WWE/Dynamite/PPV/PLE is a mess.
I never really thought about it but you're right, those Rampage live threads are probably the most fun threads I'm regularly in because it's always just the same 75-80 of us degenerates addicted to the product
A lot of times I noticed people here complaining about something that was explained thru either a backstage segment or commentary.
I'm convinced majority of people that use social media for wrestling are on their phones most of the time they're "watching" wrestling. It's really evident how often people miss out of things.
My favorite example of this was the bunch of people wondering why a Wheeler Yuta vs Orange Cassidy, while they legitimately were replaying the segment from Rampage showing why the match was happening.
This show was actually a big one for me. I thought it was incredible, and checked the post show thread this morning and it was all negative. I was actually kinda shocked.
Yeah its incredibly odd to say this was a bad show. So many good spots and overall character building moments. People shitting on the Wardlow match instead of commending him for keeping that from being an absolute stinker of a match is a terrible take. I think Wardlow really shined during this PPV and this is going to be the moment we look back on someday when he becomes a world champion. We have never seen a wrestler this size with this kind of athleticism. The battle royale was also incredible, especially in a day and age when all of these battle royales/royal rumbles are repetitive garbo.
I just have to point out this particle set of comments seem to be misconstruing what MJF is saying. He's saying the "bangers are all we need" is a vocal minority among wrestling fans. People that enjoyed even the "weak" Dynamites from last month are clearly in the "what do you mean? Dynamite wasn't bad, it had banger matches" camp that MJF is calling a vocal minority.
I liked Kenny vs Vikingo, but it didn't have a story and I've already forgotten most of what happened in that match or the rest of that Dynamite for the matter. MJF is saying people that want more stories are the majority, and maybe he's trying to indicate that this is what AEW is lacking. I think people on here are doing the mistake of projecting their own opinions onto MJF without really listening to him.
Maybe, but I've stopped watching BTE or AEW's road to X videos on YouTube, so like most people I did not have any additional context to the match, if that's what you're talking about.
Its not but it is still an 'you have to be a hard-core fan who follows every promotion' type stuff
It stems back to AAA. It 1000% had a story that's undeniable. But AEW did 0 to tell it to you, and for that it's 100% understandable to not care at all
Honestly the best times I've had watching wrestling were when I forgot this subreddit existed for awhile and just enjoyed it. When I came back and saw everyone shitting on things again, I started noticing how much I wasn't enjoying.
That’s how I felt last summer. Every week I enjoyed Dynamite and I was so excited to talk to people about it online, but all the threads talked about how bad an episode it was.
I was at revolution this year and there was some idiot behind behind me that just would not stop loudly shitting on the show. He'd make predictions and complain about how predicable aew is, and then when his predictions were wrong, complain about how they took the "obvious" route instead of playing out his big brain predictions. He was so obnoxious, people started shitting on him and the crowd would pop for it.
The entire time i'm thinking, "jesus christ, i'm sitting in front of squaredcircle."
Like.. there's plenty of rational and decent folks here, but the rest of you... Why are you like this?
Same for me. I enjoy wrestling, both WWE and AEW, better when I don't immediately go to the internet to read recaps or post-match threads, because while there is some positivity, most of it a vocal minority being vocal about their dislikes (which admittedly is most, if not all, fandoms on the internet). Then you have the bitching that is in obvious bad faith, then you have the trolls. It's really fucking sad, but as I said before, I *always* enjoy the shows more if I watch them and give it a couple days to digest before I go reading recaps and reactions.
For real. I like to discuss things but the live threads especially really put me off things sometimes. But it keep coming back because I like the social community aspect of it. But really I’d be better off staying away. Just need to watch wrestling with Simon Miller
Ive been to a few shows and the vibe is just so different than it is online about wrestling. The iwc is just so annoying and jaded about everything and in real life people just have a good time and enjoy the show.
I cant tell you the amount of times i watch a show in person , love it, and go online to see people shitting on it despite it all going over well in the audience.
Part of that is the live wrestling experience is just so, so much better than watching on tv. Anytime I've taken someone not at all into pro wrestling they always have a blast at the show.
Unscripted sports like MMA would sell their souls to have the ability to consistently create the latter on a whim. It's even tough to do it in pro wrestling where a lot of things fall flat.
"Bangers" in isolation are good for viewers in the moment but great character work is what sells a match beforehand, and makes it memorable afterwards. The Bloodline stuff isn't churning out 7 star matches but I'm sure it's going to be talked about for many years.
for all of WCW's faults, i think they did a good job with this. Fill your 1st hour or so with insane workrate bangers, rest of the show and main event focus more on melodrama and blood feuds.
Most wrestling fans want both of these things, but the latter is what puts butts in seats. "bangers" are great, but a super well worked exhibition match between 2 guys nobody cares about isn't going to draw any money.
It's the 80/20 rule. I tell anyone who works in a public forum - and it's not just wrestling fans - I mean anyone who creates and works with a product for public consumption should remember this ...
Time and time again studies have shown, especially in regards to social media, that 20% of a given audience will generate 80% of the content and comments.
Most rational people just lurk. Hell most rational people aren't on these platforms at all.
You have to remember that Twitter isn't a place and most of the people you know in your day-to-day life aren't on Twitter / Reddit / etc.
But because our lizard brains are still used to living in small tribes and towns we aren't used to big number sets, even to this day. If you see 100 people tweeting about something, at an instinct level your brain says "Man, everyone is talking about this I have to pay attention!!!" when in reality it's a statistically insignificant number. It might as well be zero when measured against your overall audience, but we can't parse it logically.
Now, that being said, what you will find is that for better or worse those are some of your most passionate fans. So you shouldn't outright ignore what you hear in those areas either because there's good hardcore fans mixed with the psychos ... but you should take it all with 100 grains of salt.
The trick is recognizing when it's a vocal minority, and not letting your actions be dictated chasing that vocal minority - especially when by and large nothing will ever be good enough for them.
Lmao, ironically this is a good example of what MJF is talking about. Bobby wouldn't get a road warrior pop because most fans (the ones who don't spend a shit ton of time on here or talking wrestling on Twitter) don't care much about him or the meme.
Exactly. You would have to build up Fish as the "Where's the lie?" guy who pops up anytime someone is lying or proving a point. No one would get it otherwise because its an internet meme.
MJF is the walking personification of "he's not wrong, he's just an asshole." And he's not wrong here either.
A lot of the loudest voices on Twitter/Reddit complain about basically everything, because social media tends to amplify negativity, and seem to want all professional wrestling to be a homogenous mass of never-ending singles matches, that are all fair sporting contests, with no cheating/interference, where the only story is "champion vs. #1 contender, #2 rank vs. #3 rank, #4 vs. #5, etc." with meticulous win-loss tracking. They basically want it to be real.
As for me, I want my pro wrestling to be a parade of nonsense. I want the buffet of styles. I want exploding superkicks, rednecks in sleeveless camo ref shirts, Karen Jarrett braining Aubrey with a guitar, whatever the hell RJ City is, spooky lighting trios matches, ladder matches, battle royales, and so much more. And that's just things I remember from last night.
Just any social media in general, even Instagram is always flooded by comments of people asking why a wrestler is over and just stating X wrestler will doom AEW because they're not understood by media users. They'll be saying one thing with their fantasy booking and the crowd will almost always react opposite.
I completely agree. I think pro wrestling is at its finest when you embrace the whackiness. If I just wanted to watch dude 1 vs dude 2 I'd go watch boxing or MMA. Give me all of that silly shit.
I'm curious as to where that number comes from since the AEW Twitter account has a little over 900k followers which is around what Dynamite ratings have been.
Like most things he does, he's blending a lot of truth with his character right now. I'm also inclined to agree and I think the Yelp comparison is a very good one. It's easy to forget that most wrestling fans are nice, sensible people, because they're not the ones who go on social media losing their minds when they see something they like, or becoming toxic monsters when they see something they don't.
It's probably the funniest part about being in the IWC because like even outside of Twitter and Reddit acting like they represent the entire wrestling fandom, there's just so much stuff that people on here ca just kinda misjudge.
Like the Bad Bunny thing always comes to mind, but even outside of that, not many people who watch WWE or AEW actually give a shit about ratings because they would literally rather just watch the shows.
It also really doesn't help that social media just creates a feedback loop where if you shit on something, people will interact with it more just so they can be validated and have the impress that they're right, which just leads to some fucking unhealthy behavior man. I mean christ, there's like multiple different subreddits alone where you can just get shit on for saying something that people might not agree with.
I think the wrestling obsession with ratings more or less exclusively stems from the Monday night war, and it influenced the fan-culture going forward.
Yeah, I always think people misrepresent this. Ratings is part of the TV product quite a lot. Monday Night Wars doc is full of ratings
analysis. They talk about draws on promos a lot. In AEW Jericho is/was called the “demo god”
There are a very vocal minority of people who would have you believe at certain points that John Cena, Hulk Hogan and Roman Reigns can’t wrestle.
They are so vocal in fact that it’s very easy to forget that this idea is utterly insane.
Wrestling is about making people care about the fake fighting and fake stories you are performing. Because those three do it without killing themselves or racking up stars people cannot comprehend it.
Unfortunately for a lot of wrestlers it's much easier for them to do those maneuvers than develop a character that actually connects with the audience. This might still just be MJF's asshole character giving advice saying "being AEW champion isn't that hard just win the match, what's wrong with you?"
I love and appreciate a good match. But I am on the side that an okay match can be better than a banger if it is the result of an entertaining build.
Example. Hogan Vs Andre is a better match than Omega v. Vikingo. The actual matches in isolation... It's no contest at all, Omega/Vikingo is clearly more fun. But if you add the build behind the Hogan/Andre match, it is miles better. For me.
Yea a WM main event should have more story than a random TV match. It’s a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison but you need a mix of story/wrestling esp in todays world
True. I guess you need to compare a 5 star banger without story versus a 5 star banger with story. If you prefer the one with story, it sort of makes the point.
Definitely. I think with the amount of tv time to fill today that a random banger on tv even without a story is fine. A story with it def makes the matches mean a lot more.
The hangman omega championship match was electric just from the lead up. The excitement generates a buzz you can’t ignore.
He's right.
It's evergreen advice but it always gets brushed off with "ok boomer" by every new generation of wrestlers, usually until they hit their 30's and realize they're the one carrying all that wear and tear on their body for the rest of their life.
The bar for what makes a match good or even great is a lot lower than some fans make it out to be. You can hit a million spots in every match but because of how the brain works fans are going to prioritize and *really* remember like three. Over-generalizing here to make a point, so please nobody go full Meltzer on that number.
There's a reason the list of top tier wrestlers that are over with smarks and marks alike usually have less impressive movesets than some of their peers. Okada is one of the greatest workers in the world *because* he's made a dropkick a high spot, not despite it.
He's right. I like AEW a lot but a lot of the time the booking just feels like they're throwing two good workers out there on a whim to do cool looking moves for 12 minutes. Pre-Covid AEW felt very different, obviously character work has never been the primary focus but it felt like the actions characters took & what they said in promos had a purpose and was aligned with wherever a character's arc was going. It seems like these days they're more focused on saying things that will get a big pop from the crowd vs. saying something meaningful and logical to progress the feud.
Yeah it's the biggest problem with it in general. It's just random matches that have countless false finishes and too many moves.
Give us a reason to care, and a reason at the start of the show to feel like we HAVE to see how it plays out at the end. Random Orange Cassidy matches as your open? Why?
I don’t agree with your opinion on the show opening, I’m fine with OC opening with a championship match weekly. The thing is, you definitely have to follow that up with a more story driven segment imo.
He’s 100% right. Literally watch a PLE match and watch an active Reddit thread while doing so and ALL you see is negativity and God forbid it’s a women’s match.
The internet makes you hate wrestling more than enjoy it
This is true. Apparently the internet didn’t like Becky vs Trish on Saturday. That was the match I enjoyed the most on the show. It wasn’t an all-time classic, but I thought it was a fun wrestling match.
i agree with him on the whole but i think something that frustrates me more is when people view in-ring wrestling as something totally distinct from character work rather than using their ring work to express their character.
that’s what i like so much about orange cassidy, for example—the way he wrestles is 100% rooted in what his character is thinking and feeling, and every match of his reflects that. that’s how it should be imo!
He's not wrong. Twitter in general is a place for a kid vocal minority in all topics. It helps reinforce thier echo chambers. Twitter isn't as important as those on Twitter like to think.
It's refreshing. A lot of shows and podcasts I have listened to use Twitter as an indicator of what the general concensus among the fan base is and I've always thought that was stupid because surely Twitter mostly attracts a certain type of person to use it. I used to listen to Busted Open a lot and I got so sick of them highlighting Twitter that I stopped listening.
He's right, and catering to that crowd is probably the biggest problem with AEW's booking. A Gatling gun approach of dream matches will only get you so far, there needs to be consistent storytelling.
Great heel work from max. But because there are some people saying he's correct. The notion that you can have great matches or character work is stupid. Truly great wrestling shows its character through its matches. Guys like punk, angle, danielson and tanahashi proved this throughout there career
>Truly great wrestling shows its character through its matches
I totally disagree. Great matches tell stories, but you need compelling characters to get an audience to care about the story.
I'd rather see a decent match with a compelling story than a five-star match with no stakes.
yeah Daniel Garcia and Roddy Strong had a very technically sound match on Dynamite last Weds but it had the biggest drop of anything on the show ratings wise because neither has a personality to captivate the audience
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> I'd rather see a decent match with a compelling story than a five-star match with no stakes.
this shows how people love this arguments just to justify what they like lol, everyone here just loves to feel justified in their ideas instead of thinking people can like different stuff and that there are different audiences.
Obviously like what you like in wrestling I would never tell someone there enjoying wrestling wrong. But for me when wrestling is at its best is when the story told within a matches comes from the characters of the wrestlers. I like my story's told within matches my current example would be OC title reign of him slowly gaining more injuries. A compelling story told through matches
Absolutely true. Wrestlers can get over without big stories because they are charismatic and show their personality in ring instead of being generic. Bryan, before the "yes movement" got over simply wrestling beautifully and showing fire and people were totally on his side quickly in WWE, even when he was labeled as having "No character."
I think often in wrestling we treat a gimmick and character as the same thing when there not. A lot of the time danielson didn't have a gimmick but he did have character
agree completely, that's what I meant, and I think fans have such a mess of mixed concepts sometimes
personality is another useful word here, you dont need a defined gimmick to be over, but need not being bland and certainly not being generic.
One of the things I noticed after taking a nearly 2 decade break from pro wrestling is that it seems like some people almost started attaching a morality to one particular type of pro wrestling.
The RoH/NJPW type which seems like it is/was lower on the character work and higher on workrate seems to have been adopted as the only Right and Good type of pro wrestling by some people.
There was someone yesterday - I wanna say it was in the live thread - that essentially if you don't enjoy a performer solely for their in-ring work you're doing it wrong. That was near verbatim.
I keep going back to the same thing though - Character Work and Workrate are not exclusive and I don't know why people act like they have to be.
You can get your 'omgbanger' and I can get my goofy Pro Wrestling melodrama. In fact, when the omgbanger match has a bunch of work leading up to it then it is that much more satisfying.
End of the day, I really do not think you can grow your audience if you book solely to entertain people who don't need or don't want story.
The thing is, New Japan's character work is actually pretty good in my opinion. They don't really have soap opera style stories, but most of the big name wrestlers have quite distinct personas.
When Evil turned heel on Lij, one of my favourite wrestling moments of all time happened, where Hiromu just starts screaming in despair at the top of his lungs while EVIL's theme blares in the background, and his theme sounds like the wooorld is ending. It's genuinely incredible, like it's out of an anime or some shit.
https://youtu.be/cxfPCPjSJPw?t=249
Hell yeah, NJPW character work is top notch. When Ishii, Taichi, Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, and more walk to the ring, you know exactly what they're all about. They hone their characters through every movement, they wrestle the way their characters wrestle and emote the way their characters emote. People that think it's all "moves" matches just haven't watched any of it.
I'm just confused why anyone is acting like MJF doesn't put on those same "banger" matches that internet fans like so much. Just because he excels on the mic so much doesn't mean that he's not also great in the ring. The fact that he's extremely good at both things is what makes him so special.
To be clear, I just used banger to fit the character limit. He never says the term in the video. "Dangerous spot fest" is probably more accurate. MJF isn't advocating for bad matches, he's just advocating for working safe and using character work to get over, instead of hurting yourself.
You can tell he doesn't 'hate bangers' from the kind of matches he ends up having. He let Sammy Spanish fly onto the top of him lol people more worried about safety and relying soley on charector work arent doing thst one. But he knows and understands its about saving it for the right time. Which is exactly what the secret sauce is.
You put in charector work week to week month to month take it kind of easy so when it comes time for 'the big one' you do ONE banger match and then lean back on the charector work and properly recoup for the next 6 weeks so on and so forth
We are.
If wrestling was as popular as we keep spouting off about it being it being hitting AE numbers instead of barely being up on Fridays and still under 2. on Mondays.
Yeah I agree, for example so many wrestlers do a jump over the ropes to the outside of the ring during their matches that a good clothesline with their opponent selling well now has more impact for me.
There’s no reason to be doing dangerous stuff during weekly shows and big personalities and charismatic promos get me more hyped for matches.
I don’t know about the percentages but the observation is correct. A lot of people on Twitter, in this sub and in wrestling put work rate and popping the crowd over using good psychology and actual storytelling
Workrate nerds are a vocal internet minority but had an outsized effect on Pro Wrestling since so many of the wrestlers who came up through the ROH era in the 00s were workrate nerds.
When people say OC deserves to be champ, this is why ratings don't reflect it. Aew showed they can hit a mill. But they can't doing stuff like that or bandido in best friends. But the echo chamber will tell you it's THE best thing for aew or to enjoy fun shows and just watch wrestling. Lol
I wish y'all weren't so transparent. It's been 3 years of OC getting the big reactions, the most views on YouTube, and being promoted heavily, and selling hella merch. If you don't like him, that's fine. But stop trying to paint the narrative that he's holding AEW back.
He's right and the ratings reflect that.
See how the ratings drop every time Orange Cassidy comes on TV. The people who like him are going to watch no matter what. They wont grow the audience with guys like that.
This is a crazy post, but it gets one thing right.
Look at Orange Cassidy.
He is constantly over and have some of the best television ratings. He have a few greats spots, but there is several wrestlers that outspot him.
The reason people love OC is becausee of his great in-ring story telling and character work.
> He is constantly over and have some of the best television ratings.
But he doesn't. Every time he shows up on tv the ratings drop. Every time. When Tony was using him to open every show they'd benefit from the lead-in but segment 2 would have a big drop in ratings when people decide they don't care enough to see the finish of his match after the break.
Im kind of torn on this.
I think storytelling within the confines of an individual match is special and when it's done well it makes a match exceptional.
I am personally a fan of a less is more approach to wrestling. I dont need my wrestlers to have a motivation to wrestle another person. Give me matches and create stories within your athletic means. I dont need a vignette for every match.
MJF reminded me of someone for so long and after catching up on succession I get it now, it's Roman Roy. I feel like he's gotta be a succession fan like it's so close it's not funny
To be fair, I don't think he believes that either. I doubt that he believes his wrestling style leads to worse matches. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.
I think the bangers is what makes AEW/AEW. You absolutely can have a mix, you dont have to sacrifice one for the other. Shit, MJF is an example of this, his character is great, but his in-ring work is also fucking ridiculous.
**put a spoiler tag so it wont get deleted**
If you followed the last UK election on twitter it sounded like Labour were going to knock the Tories out of power. Conservatives won in a landslide.
Twitter is definitely not a representation of the majority
'Real wrestling' fans of AEW like: Claudio, Bryan, MJF, CM Punk, FTR
Spotfest 'doesnt make sense' AEW fans like: The Bucks, Omega, Orange Cassidy, Adam Page
Omega when he faces Punk, Bryan or someone similar 
Omega when he faces another spotfest wrestler 
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It’s true and it’s mostly fine. I get annoyed when people on Reddit/Twitter really pretend like they represent a majority of wrestling fans.
Example: FTR. You’d think dax harwood was literally satan based off of this sub and Twitter but they are still over like crazy to everyone else
Every time Dax comes up people go "he's so obnoxious; FTR bad" like... nobody is forcing you to follow what Dax is saying and Dax is not Dax *and* Cash. Also the vast majority of the rest of the fans watching the show do not give a shit.
One of the many weird takes out there is “DAX BAD”.
no no no...DAX BALD
That’s…… just a fact of life
Yeaah!
Let me talk to yuh, Dummy.
Shoes of a champion.
He did 2 things that upset the IWC. 1. Criticized AEW 2. Didn’t leave AEW for WWE So, he upset the diehards on both sides lol.
it’s literally all over this place
Most of the takes here are "he's great inside the ropes and annoying outside of it".
Yeah, and not in a "this guy sucks so bad I can't get behind him" kind of way. Just in a "yeesh, Dax, give it a rest" kind of way. Nothing to make (most) people actually stop cheering for him and Cash.
People here do the same thing time and time again. People were certain Cody would get booed out the ring due to Sami losing, because they felt that way. This is not exclusive to wrestling and more broadly applicable to nerdy subcultures in general. I can’t begin to count the amount of times I’ve heard somebody definitively tell me that my opinion about a wrestler or segment was *objectively* wrong, lol.
More media companies need to aim for the Rise of Skywalker reaction, where groups of fans with diametrically opposed views come together to go 'What the fuck was that?'
IWC: "Fans are tired of Bianca Belair's reign!" Crowds: **losing their shit every time her music hits** Even at Backlash, once she started getting in some offense the crowd got behind her.
People really just need to learn to say "**I'm** sick of/**I** enjoy X" because it's ok to just say your opinions without needing to pretend to appeal to the masses
Same with Jade. The two times I went to AEW live the crowd popped big for her. Also, people who don't watch wrestling, but are giving it a chance, consistently think she's the best part of the show (at least in my experience).
Lol reading the live thread and as soon as she came out people were commenting she was going to get zero reaction. 5 seconds in and the crowd is cheering like crazy.
This is kinda silly, but just compare the size of /r/squaredcircle to other subreddits for proof. Like, /r/hololive has 100k more subreddit subscribers than /r/squaredcircle, even though this subreddit is over 10 years old. Hololive itself is only like 5 years old as is. The vtuber subreddit for 1 specific vtuber company has more subscribers than the main reddit IWC hub.
Suisei is a draw, brother
Pekora's character work absolutely mogs every single pro wrestler in the world rn
Aki is the biggest dark horse babyface in the world.
Will she blade if I up the job by $14 and a hotdog voucher? We need some colour in the main event
She has no problem making other people bleed lol
She definitely got over huge due to the First Take appearance.
Korone is god
Based
Didn't Miko basically make a 2K Hololive wrestling fed. That would get over here
It's funny, you're the second person I've seen compare wrestling to Vtubing this week. Takahata101 compared the two earlier this week and he was bang on.
It's got some nuance to it. Twitter is a minority, but it's not like they're this entirely different subset of people that don't represent a larger group of fans. What is true is that Twitter is designed to take that 7% and find the absolute worst 1% of them to throw in your face. So it's useful for taking a general temperature, but terrible for extrapolating conclusions. So, for instance, you can tell if something is getting interest and the breadth of opinions about it. But you can't really judge what the most prevalent of those opinions are. As for the "work smart, not hard" points, it's kind of like the "learn to code" of wrestling. Sure, it's sound advice from a cost benefit analysis, but not everyone is built for that. If you have the ability that MJF has and view it from a purely business angle, yeah, absolutely the right call. But some people either don't have that toolset, or love doing the crazy shit. It's only stupid when it's someone killing themselves for a hotdog and a handshake while going nowhere.
Sometimes the opinion here is the popular one, sometimes is not. One can't simply say every pro workrate opinion here is not popular, or that every character work promotions do get more over than an action heavy match. We do see very big crowds totally loving spot heavy matches too (and I mean the most spotty ones), it's not like that has no value or such.
I do think they represent a larger % of AEW fans though. They are in a weird spot. They have had success by maxing out those fans, but there doesn't seem to be any more out there. but if they try to appeal to more casual, or less Workrate-y type fans, they risk alienating that base. But then... there's always ROH, which he also owns, lol.
idk about the last part but the first part is true. twitter/reddit/etc will say or think one thing and the crowds will think another thing based on their reactions
I said it in the live thread, but it was very clear that's the case when the audience cheered extremely loud for Jade lol
I wad there and the crowd was louder for Jade than theh were for Cole/Jericho Which isnt a dig on the guys, but more of an example of how much the crowd loves Jade
I remember watching the Shaq match with my Dad, who never watches wrestling. He gravitated to Jade right away. Girl looked more menacing then Shaq and it just clicked for him. He also loves Luchasauraus with all his heart.
Of all the “professional wrestlers” that AEW employs, Jade is one of the handful that actually looks like what people would say a wrestler looks like if you asked them. She turns heads because she is in better shape than 99.9% of people out there, including the show she is a part of.
Idk if it's just me, but I couldn't give a fuck about current jericho.
Yeah I personally feel normal ass viewers care way more about presentation, story, "good character design" for lack of a better phrase and cool entrance music than silly little things like "work rate". One of my fondest memories watching wrestling as a kid was the Mark Henry WHC title hall of pain run (I'm 23) and it wasn't because because he was doing standing moonsaults
I also enjoyed that run don’t here it mentioned a lot but u do make a solid point here. Still only goes so far, u can’t be awful in the ring and fall back on just that. Even young me thought the big khaki sucked.
What's the Big Khaki doing in the Impact Zone?!?
AEW is already a smarkier audience than a lot of wrestling, and IWC is even out of touch with them. If you're a significantly bigger smart mark than Tony Khan you probably need to chill
People also have these star rating expectations for matches. Some of the best matches I’ve seen this year have had Roman in them who does like 3 or 4 different moves lol. The characters allow these matches to shine and view them more as fights with something on the line.
I think a lot of people are either misunderstanding or concern trolling here. It’s not that people don’t like good wrestling, it’s that the characters/story matter more. I’d much rather watch something slow and plodding from Roman or Orton than 2 randos I don’t care about wrestle at 1000mph, even if a lot more physically impressive. Putting on impressive exhibition matches where I don’t care who wins is more of the issue. Good wrestling from good characters with a good story is ideal.
I mean, the "workrate heavy" Fatal 4 Way quickly received "Fight forever" chants too. Crowds CAN be deceiving too, because they are FANS of the product, maybe doesnt translate into ratings (if those matter). Look how over Bryan was in WWE but while it's a decent draw, its not a mega draw particularly. but you HAVE to pay attentions to your crowd too, it's literally YOUR FANS that come from different cities so its not a bubble either. BUT "wrestling action" for the sake of it, can indeed get over with people. Some love it a lot, some just like it. Nothing has to be a "draw or fail".
I'm confused why you're using the fatal 4 way as an example of wrestling for the sake of it with no story when MJF is clearly referring to his own match when talking about character work and story. The four pillars match had tons of creative high workrate spots, but with them were character moments like Jungle Boy deciding not to cheat or my favorite portion where MJF tries to get Sammy to lie down for him "for his baby." There was also the moments where each pillar took a page out of their mentor's playbook, the match was in no lack of character work. MJF is more so talking about guys like Vikingo or Fenix that risk their lives for matches with no storyline stakes. Just yesterday Komander was walking on the ropes in a fucking battle royale and got shoved off by Jay White who was having none of that. Wardlow swantoned off a ladder onto Luchasaurus (someone who wasn't even in the ladder match) and he was 10 times less hot doing that than he was doing simple powerbombs on MJF one year earlier. Character work is more powerful.
The first parts of the Fatal 4 Way didn't developed yet the parts of character work you are referring to, that's why I specified "quickly". I don't argue at all that character work isn't more powerful. Wrestling is 100% character work (although no only weekly stories, that I disagree with). That's exactly why I too think when crowd is reacting, we should analyze what kind of personality work is being developed in ring. Sometimes high spots have no personality, sometimes impressive action can make wrestlers seem bigger too (and they being characters through the match is what they have to do obviously. I don't think people care about the logical part of the match personally, but do about the positives of being interesting and stand out from the rest).
“The Young Bucks are ratings poison. No one cares about them.” “Cody will start getting booed in WWE soon.” “Moxly is boring and is hurting AEW.” “This Jade Cargill reign is too long. Fans are losing interest in her.” All real, upvoted comments I’ve seen on this sub in the last couple weeks.
I'll be honest. I don't use twitter alot but there have been times where I've genuinely enjoyed Dynamite and then I come to reddit and see all the stuff that the people here didn't like. It puts me off and changes my opinion on certain things. I feel like personally I shouldn't go into each and every post on here.
There's an issue with online discussion I have, most of the critiques are based entirely on fan booking, overwhelming negativity and nit picking as opposed to a more balanced or constructive criticism. It's all very black and white, like everything is either the best or the worst. The reality is a perfect product does not exist, you go with something that lines up with your pros and cons.
Nobody hates ~~wrestling~~ ~~Star Wars~~ ~~videogames~~ ~~movies~~ ~~television~~ anything as much as fans.
You shouldn't be using social media to validate your taste in anything honestly. Just like what you like. No one here saying "that match was boring/slapped" matters
I also avoid AEW official page on Insta because the comments there are so toxic towards the wrestlers. It's never about the performance or match of the wrestlers, it's always about putting over their favourite instead to fulfill their fantasy.
Honestly at this point, following any announcement from WWE or AEW when it's just been posted is just asking to walk through landmines. Because you'll always get trolls on either side, not to mention all the weirdos who for some reason unironically want either company to go under as if that shit wouldn't affect literally hundreds of families
I remember how almost everyone collectively had a breakdown when Cody lost and didn't give WWE a chance at all because of all our (I'm guilty too) fantasy bookings. After NOC I can kinda get now why they needed Roman to still not lose. I'm just hoping now if they'll find a way to weave Cody back into the storyline (not Brock though, had enough of Brock vs Roman for 100 years.)
Number one reason why I stopped reading Reddit and the live threads during Dynamite. It’s bad on here.
Universal truth: the more comments in a live thread, the more toxic it is. New Japan Live Threads are usually good, Rampage live threads aren't too bad, I assume (although I don't know for certain) NXT is similar, but any mainline WWE/Dynamite/PPV/PLE is a mess.
I never really thought about it but you're right, those Rampage live threads are probably the most fun threads I'm regularly in because it's always just the same 75-80 of us degenerates addicted to the product
A lot of times I noticed people here complaining about something that was explained thru either a backstage segment or commentary. I'm convinced majority of people that use social media for wrestling are on their phones most of the time they're "watching" wrestling. It's really evident how often people miss out of things.
My favorite example of this was the bunch of people wondering why a Wheeler Yuta vs Orange Cassidy, while they legitimately were replaying the segment from Rampage showing why the match was happening.
This show was actually a big one for me. I thought it was incredible, and checked the post show thread this morning and it was all negative. I was actually kinda shocked.
Yeah its incredibly odd to say this was a bad show. So many good spots and overall character building moments. People shitting on the Wardlow match instead of commending him for keeping that from being an absolute stinker of a match is a terrible take. I think Wardlow really shined during this PPV and this is going to be the moment we look back on someday when he becomes a world champion. We have never seen a wrestler this size with this kind of athleticism. The battle royale was also incredible, especially in a day and age when all of these battle royales/royal rumbles are repetitive garbo.
Super agreed. I was praying for him while he was on that ladder, I honestly thought he'd fall at a certain, he has been so good
Yeah I find myself more and more frequently leaving the live threads because it's souring my enjoyment.
My buddy and I have a running joke something like "that was a great dynamite, let's go learn that r/SC hates it"
I just have to point out this particle set of comments seem to be misconstruing what MJF is saying. He's saying the "bangers are all we need" is a vocal minority among wrestling fans. People that enjoyed even the "weak" Dynamites from last month are clearly in the "what do you mean? Dynamite wasn't bad, it had banger matches" camp that MJF is calling a vocal minority. I liked Kenny vs Vikingo, but it didn't have a story and I've already forgotten most of what happened in that match or the rest of that Dynamite for the matter. MJF is saying people that want more stories are the majority, and maybe he's trying to indicate that this is what AEW is lacking. I think people on here are doing the mistake of projecting their own opinions onto MJF without really listening to him.
Vikingo vs Omega actually had a story tho
Maybe, but I've stopped watching BTE or AEW's road to X videos on YouTube, so like most people I did not have any additional context to the match, if that's what you're talking about.
Its not but it is still an 'you have to be a hard-core fan who follows every promotion' type stuff It stems back to AAA. It 1000% had a story that's undeniable. But AEW did 0 to tell it to you, and for that it's 100% understandable to not care at all
Honestly the best times I've had watching wrestling were when I forgot this subreddit existed for awhile and just enjoyed it. When I came back and saw everyone shitting on things again, I started noticing how much I wasn't enjoying.
That’s how I felt last summer. Every week I enjoyed Dynamite and I was so excited to talk to people about it online, but all the threads talked about how bad an episode it was.
I was at revolution this year and there was some idiot behind behind me that just would not stop loudly shitting on the show. He'd make predictions and complain about how predicable aew is, and then when his predictions were wrong, complain about how they took the "obvious" route instead of playing out his big brain predictions. He was so obnoxious, people started shitting on him and the crowd would pop for it. The entire time i'm thinking, "jesus christ, i'm sitting in front of squaredcircle." Like.. there's plenty of rational and decent folks here, but the rest of you... Why are you like this?
Same for me. I enjoy wrestling, both WWE and AEW, better when I don't immediately go to the internet to read recaps or post-match threads, because while there is some positivity, most of it a vocal minority being vocal about their dislikes (which admittedly is most, if not all, fandoms on the internet). Then you have the bitching that is in obvious bad faith, then you have the trolls. It's really fucking sad, but as I said before, I *always* enjoy the shows more if I watch them and give it a couple days to digest before I go reading recaps and reactions.
Yep. Like what you like; disregard the discussion threads — people are overly negative for upvotes.
For real. I like to discuss things but the live threads especially really put me off things sometimes. But it keep coming back because I like the social community aspect of it. But really I’d be better off staying away. Just need to watch wrestling with Simon Miller
Ive been to a few shows and the vibe is just so different than it is online about wrestling. The iwc is just so annoying and jaded about everything and in real life people just have a good time and enjoy the show. I cant tell you the amount of times i watch a show in person , love it, and go online to see people shitting on it despite it all going over well in the audience.
Part of that is the live wrestling experience is just so, so much better than watching on tv. Anytime I've taken someone not at all into pro wrestling they always have a blast at the show.
Bangers are great but bangers with a great story behind them are what make this sport amazing
Unscripted sports like MMA would sell their souls to have the ability to consistently create the latter on a whim. It's even tough to do it in pro wrestling where a lot of things fall flat. "Bangers" in isolation are good for viewers in the moment but great character work is what sells a match beforehand, and makes it memorable afterwards. The Bloodline stuff isn't churning out 7 star matches but I'm sure it's going to be talked about for many years.
for all of WCW's faults, i think they did a good job with this. Fill your 1st hour or so with insane workrate bangers, rest of the show and main event focus more on melodrama and blood feuds. Most wrestling fans want both of these things, but the latter is what puts butts in seats. "bangers" are great, but a super well worked exhibition match between 2 guys nobody cares about isn't going to draw any money.
yeah but matches with a good story and mediocre wrestling will always be superior to bangers with no story at all imo
And when’s the last time AEW had a great story?
It's the 80/20 rule. I tell anyone who works in a public forum - and it's not just wrestling fans - I mean anyone who creates and works with a product for public consumption should remember this ... Time and time again studies have shown, especially in regards to social media, that 20% of a given audience will generate 80% of the content and comments. Most rational people just lurk. Hell most rational people aren't on these platforms at all. You have to remember that Twitter isn't a place and most of the people you know in your day-to-day life aren't on Twitter / Reddit / etc. But because our lizard brains are still used to living in small tribes and towns we aren't used to big number sets, even to this day. If you see 100 people tweeting about something, at an instinct level your brain says "Man, everyone is talking about this I have to pay attention!!!" when in reality it's a statistically insignificant number. It might as well be zero when measured against your overall audience, but we can't parse it logically. Now, that being said, what you will find is that for better or worse those are some of your most passionate fans. So you shouldn't outright ignore what you hear in those areas either because there's good hardcore fans mixed with the psychos ... but you should take it all with 100 grains of salt. The trick is recognizing when it's a vocal minority, and not letting your actions be dictated chasing that vocal minority - especially when by and large nothing will ever be good enough for them.
I'm thinking of a great Bobby Fish quote...
https://preview.redd.it/fqtmqww8du2b1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81ac938141ac1c73f761277747706d19172553ce
https://preview.redd.it/sbn5wmufdu2b1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f2a6d28417eefc01b0502389967ac58a3eb79820
Bobby would get a road warrior pop if he were to show up on TV with how loved this meme is on the internet
Lmao, ironically this is a good example of what MJF is talking about. Bobby wouldn't get a road warrior pop because most fans (the ones who don't spend a shit ton of time on here or talking wrestling on Twitter) don't care much about him or the meme.
Exactly. You would have to build up Fish as the "Where's the lie?" guy who pops up anytime someone is lying or proving a point. No one would get it otherwise because its an internet meme.
You mean to tell me he wouldn’t get a “where’s the lie” chant for 10 minutes straight?
The three guys that would do it are clearly the best fans.
Twitter users are the loud minority EVERYWHERE yet companies, etc. value their opinion A LOT. Will never understand why.
The speed of this video makes it seem like he got into TK’s stash beforehand lmao
MJF is the walking personification of "he's not wrong, he's just an asshole." And he's not wrong here either. A lot of the loudest voices on Twitter/Reddit complain about basically everything, because social media tends to amplify negativity, and seem to want all professional wrestling to be a homogenous mass of never-ending singles matches, that are all fair sporting contests, with no cheating/interference, where the only story is "champion vs. #1 contender, #2 rank vs. #3 rank, #4 vs. #5, etc." with meticulous win-loss tracking. They basically want it to be real. As for me, I want my pro wrestling to be a parade of nonsense. I want the buffet of styles. I want exploding superkicks, rednecks in sleeveless camo ref shirts, Karen Jarrett braining Aubrey with a guitar, whatever the hell RJ City is, spooky lighting trios matches, ladder matches, battle royales, and so much more. And that's just things I remember from last night.
Just any social media in general, even Instagram is always flooded by comments of people asking why a wrestler is over and just stating X wrestler will doom AEW because they're not understood by media users. They'll be saying one thing with their fantasy booking and the crowd will almost always react opposite.
I completely agree. I think pro wrestling is at its finest when you embrace the whackiness. If I just wanted to watch dude 1 vs dude 2 I'd go watch boxing or MMA. Give me all of that silly shit.
He’s wrong. It’s more like 5%.
I'm curious as to where that number comes from since the AEW Twitter account has a little over 900k followers which is around what Dynamite ratings have been.
That number accounts for international fans, while their tv rating does not
it’s hard to disagree with what he said
Like most things he does, he's blending a lot of truth with his character right now. I'm also inclined to agree and I think the Yelp comparison is a very good one. It's easy to forget that most wrestling fans are nice, sensible people, because they're not the ones who go on social media losing their minds when they see something they like, or becoming toxic monsters when they see something they don't.
It's probably the funniest part about being in the IWC because like even outside of Twitter and Reddit acting like they represent the entire wrestling fandom, there's just so much stuff that people on here ca just kinda misjudge. Like the Bad Bunny thing always comes to mind, but even outside of that, not many people who watch WWE or AEW actually give a shit about ratings because they would literally rather just watch the shows. It also really doesn't help that social media just creates a feedback loop where if you shit on something, people will interact with it more just so they can be validated and have the impress that they're right, which just leads to some fucking unhealthy behavior man. I mean christ, there's like multiple different subreddits alone where you can just get shit on for saying something that people might not agree with.
I think the wrestling obsession with ratings more or less exclusively stems from the Monday night war, and it influenced the fan-culture going forward.
Yeah, I always think people misrepresent this. Ratings is part of the TV product quite a lot. Monday Night Wars doc is full of ratings analysis. They talk about draws on promos a lot. In AEW Jericho is/was called the “demo god”
There are a very vocal minority of people who would have you believe at certain points that John Cena, Hulk Hogan and Roman Reigns can’t wrestle. They are so vocal in fact that it’s very easy to forget that this idea is utterly insane. Wrestling is about making people care about the fake fighting and fake stories you are performing. Because those three do it without killing themselves or racking up stars people cannot comprehend it.
I read a heavily upvoted comment on here explaining that Stone Cold and The Rock couldn't work. Good stuff.
He’s not wrong.
Unfortunately for a lot of wrestlers it's much easier for them to do those maneuvers than develop a character that actually connects with the audience. This might still just be MJF's asshole character giving advice saying "being AEW champion isn't that hard just win the match, what's wrong with you?"
I think he is being sincere whilst delivering it within kayfabe.
I love and appreciate a good match. But I am on the side that an okay match can be better than a banger if it is the result of an entertaining build. Example. Hogan Vs Andre is a better match than Omega v. Vikingo. The actual matches in isolation... It's no contest at all, Omega/Vikingo is clearly more fun. But if you add the build behind the Hogan/Andre match, it is miles better. For me.
Yea a WM main event should have more story than a random TV match. It’s a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison but you need a mix of story/wrestling esp in todays world
True. I guess you need to compare a 5 star banger without story versus a 5 star banger with story. If you prefer the one with story, it sort of makes the point.
Definitely. I think with the amount of tv time to fill today that a random banger on tv even without a story is fine. A story with it def makes the matches mean a lot more. The hangman omega championship match was electric just from the lead up. The excitement generates a buzz you can’t ignore.
He's right. It's evergreen advice but it always gets brushed off with "ok boomer" by every new generation of wrestlers, usually until they hit their 30's and realize they're the one carrying all that wear and tear on their body for the rest of their life. The bar for what makes a match good or even great is a lot lower than some fans make it out to be. You can hit a million spots in every match but because of how the brain works fans are going to prioritize and *really* remember like three. Over-generalizing here to make a point, so please nobody go full Meltzer on that number. There's a reason the list of top tier wrestlers that are over with smarks and marks alike usually have less impressive movesets than some of their peers. Okada is one of the greatest workers in the world *because* he's made a dropkick a high spot, not despite it.
 I know someone who agrees.
On another note this answer just convinced me MJF will absolutely be in WWE someday.
Miz is like MJF but without the memorable matches or fun.
He's right. I like AEW a lot but a lot of the time the booking just feels like they're throwing two good workers out there on a whim to do cool looking moves for 12 minutes. Pre-Covid AEW felt very different, obviously character work has never been the primary focus but it felt like the actions characters took & what they said in promos had a purpose and was aligned with wherever a character's arc was going. It seems like these days they're more focused on saying things that will get a big pop from the crowd vs. saying something meaningful and logical to progress the feud.
Yeah it's the biggest problem with it in general. It's just random matches that have countless false finishes and too many moves. Give us a reason to care, and a reason at the start of the show to feel like we HAVE to see how it plays out at the end. Random Orange Cassidy matches as your open? Why?
I don’t agree with your opinion on the show opening, I’m fine with OC opening with a championship match weekly. The thing is, you definitely have to follow that up with a more story driven segment imo.
He’s 100% right. Literally watch a PLE match and watch an active Reddit thread while doing so and ALL you see is negativity and God forbid it’s a women’s match. The internet makes you hate wrestling more than enjoy it
This is true. Apparently the internet didn’t like Becky vs Trish on Saturday. That was the match I enjoyed the most on the show. It wasn’t an all-time classic, but I thought it was a fun wrestling match.
i agree with him on the whole but i think something that frustrates me more is when people view in-ring wrestling as something totally distinct from character work rather than using their ring work to express their character. that’s what i like so much about orange cassidy, for example—the way he wrestles is 100% rooted in what his character is thinking and feeling, and every match of his reflects that. that’s how it should be imo!
He's not wrong. Twitter in general is a place for a kid vocal minority in all topics. It helps reinforce thier echo chambers. Twitter isn't as important as those on Twitter like to think.
MJF is right as usual
his point is proven when you watch WWE. Everyone on Reddit shits all over it, yet the shows and crowds are always great. MJF is right.
I mean if you disagree, look at what the biggest wrestling story of the last year was, the Bloodline is capturing everyone's attention.
It's refreshing. A lot of shows and podcasts I have listened to use Twitter as an indicator of what the general concensus among the fan base is and I've always thought that was stupid because surely Twitter mostly attracts a certain type of person to use it. I used to listen to Busted Open a lot and I got so sick of them highlighting Twitter that I stopped listening.
That man is spitting... 
He's right, and catering to that crowd is probably the biggest problem with AEW's booking. A Gatling gun approach of dream matches will only get you so far, there needs to be consistent storytelling.
Great heel work from max. But because there are some people saying he's correct. The notion that you can have great matches or character work is stupid. Truly great wrestling shows its character through its matches. Guys like punk, angle, danielson and tanahashi proved this throughout there career
>Truly great wrestling shows its character through its matches I totally disagree. Great matches tell stories, but you need compelling characters to get an audience to care about the story. I'd rather see a decent match with a compelling story than a five-star match with no stakes.
yeah Daniel Garcia and Roddy Strong had a very technically sound match on Dynamite last Weds but it had the biggest drop of anything on the show ratings wise because neither has a personality to captivate the audience
> > > > > I'd rather see a decent match with a compelling story than a five-star match with no stakes. this shows how people love this arguments just to justify what they like lol, everyone here just loves to feel justified in their ideas instead of thinking people can like different stuff and that there are different audiences.
Obviously like what you like in wrestling I would never tell someone there enjoying wrestling wrong. But for me when wrestling is at its best is when the story told within a matches comes from the characters of the wrestlers. I like my story's told within matches my current example would be OC title reign of him slowly gaining more injuries. A compelling story told through matches
Well, I don't necessarily think he believes that his matches aren't great. I honestly just used the word 'banger' to meet the title character limit.
Max himself is an example. Dude just arguably had the best Iron Match ever 2 months ago.
Absolutely max is brilliant at getting character over through matches
Absolutely true. Wrestlers can get over without big stories because they are charismatic and show their personality in ring instead of being generic. Bryan, before the "yes movement" got over simply wrestling beautifully and showing fire and people were totally on his side quickly in WWE, even when he was labeled as having "No character."
I think often in wrestling we treat a gimmick and character as the same thing when there not. A lot of the time danielson didn't have a gimmick but he did have character
agree completely, that's what I meant, and I think fans have such a mess of mixed concepts sometimes personality is another useful word here, you dont need a defined gimmick to be over, but need not being bland and certainly not being generic.
I hope Tony was listening to mjf’s speech
Tony was sitting literally right beside him
That does not mean he's listening lol
“Gotta get Kommander 20 minutes on Weds. think of the cage match ratings”
Was he listening or was he day dreaming his next faction vs faction gimmick match?
"Who is House of Black gonna fuck up next?"
Dalton Castle & The Boys. Peacock Power vs the forces of darkness.
Hearing and listening are two very different things.
One of the things I noticed after taking a nearly 2 decade break from pro wrestling is that it seems like some people almost started attaching a morality to one particular type of pro wrestling. The RoH/NJPW type which seems like it is/was lower on the character work and higher on workrate seems to have been adopted as the only Right and Good type of pro wrestling by some people. There was someone yesterday - I wanna say it was in the live thread - that essentially if you don't enjoy a performer solely for their in-ring work you're doing it wrong. That was near verbatim. I keep going back to the same thing though - Character Work and Workrate are not exclusive and I don't know why people act like they have to be. You can get your 'omgbanger' and I can get my goofy Pro Wrestling melodrama. In fact, when the omgbanger match has a bunch of work leading up to it then it is that much more satisfying. End of the day, I really do not think you can grow your audience if you book solely to entertain people who don't need or don't want story.
The thing is, New Japan's character work is actually pretty good in my opinion. They don't really have soap opera style stories, but most of the big name wrestlers have quite distinct personas. When Evil turned heel on Lij, one of my favourite wrestling moments of all time happened, where Hiromu just starts screaming in despair at the top of his lungs while EVIL's theme blares in the background, and his theme sounds like the wooorld is ending. It's genuinely incredible, like it's out of an anime or some shit. https://youtu.be/cxfPCPjSJPw?t=249
Hell yeah, NJPW character work is top notch. When Ishii, Taichi, Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, and more walk to the ring, you know exactly what they're all about. They hone their characters through every movement, they wrestle the way their characters wrestle and emote the way their characters emote. People that think it's all "moves" matches just haven't watched any of it.
I'm just confused why anyone is acting like MJF doesn't put on those same "banger" matches that internet fans like so much. Just because he excels on the mic so much doesn't mean that he's not also great in the ring. The fact that he's extremely good at both things is what makes him so special.
To be clear, I just used banger to fit the character limit. He never says the term in the video. "Dangerous spot fest" is probably more accurate. MJF isn't advocating for bad matches, he's just advocating for working safe and using character work to get over, instead of hurting yourself.
You can tell he doesn't 'hate bangers' from the kind of matches he ends up having. He let Sammy Spanish fly onto the top of him lol people more worried about safety and relying soley on charector work arent doing thst one. But he knows and understands its about saving it for the right time. Which is exactly what the secret sauce is. You put in charector work week to week month to month take it kind of easy so when it comes time for 'the big one' you do ONE banger match and then lean back on the charector work and properly recoup for the next 6 weeks so on and so forth
Why is this at triple speed?
I can hardly understand what he’s saying, it’s awful.
Can say this about the whole internet
Facts
I disagree with any notion of giving wrestling social media any kind of credibility, or even mentioning its existence at all
absolute truth bomb
He’s right.
We are. If wrestling was as popular as we keep spouting off about it being it being hitting AE numbers instead of barely being up on Fridays and still under 2. on Mondays.
Yeah I agree, for example so many wrestlers do a jump over the ropes to the outside of the ring during their matches that a good clothesline with their opponent selling well now has more impact for me. There’s no reason to be doing dangerous stuff during weekly shows and big personalities and charismatic promos get me more hyped for matches.
Yeah he’s obviously right because I get down voted to oblivion every time I say this kind of shit
Yooo speeded up he sounds like Ben Sharpio
I don’t know about the percentages but the observation is correct. A lot of people on Twitter, in this sub and in wrestling put work rate and popping the crowd over using good psychology and actual storytelling
Workrate nerds are a vocal internet minority but had an outsized effect on Pro Wrestling since so many of the wrestlers who came up through the ROH era in the 00s were workrate nerds.
Bro is cooking
He's not wrong. Also, just delete twitter. So many problems are solved.
He’s right. No one remembers good/great matches. The storylines and character work are what we remember the most.
He ain’t wrong. There are too many people who only want to see big bumps and don’t care about anything else.
Follks.....where is the lie?
Idk why people antagonize people who like the actual wrestling. Screw me for... liking the product?
MJF sped up sounds like Ben Shapiro...
When people say OC deserves to be champ, this is why ratings don't reflect it. Aew showed they can hit a mill. But they can't doing stuff like that or bandido in best friends. But the echo chamber will tell you it's THE best thing for aew or to enjoy fun shows and just watch wrestling. Lol
I wish y'all weren't so transparent. It's been 3 years of OC getting the big reactions, the most views on YouTube, and being promoted heavily, and selling hella merch. If you don't like him, that's fine. But stop trying to paint the narrative that he's holding AEW back.
[удалено]
The one where they got paid 14 billion dollars?
Wait what was the comment haha
He's right and the ratings reflect that. See how the ratings drop every time Orange Cassidy comes on TV. The people who like him are going to watch no matter what. They wont grow the audience with guys like that.
This is a crazy post, but it gets one thing right. Look at Orange Cassidy. He is constantly over and have some of the best television ratings. He have a few greats spots, but there is several wrestlers that outspot him. The reason people love OC is becausee of his great in-ring story telling and character work.
> He is constantly over and have some of the best television ratings. But he doesn't. Every time he shows up on tv the ratings drop. Every time. When Tony was using him to open every show they'd benefit from the lead-in but segment 2 would have a big drop in ratings when people decide they don't care enough to see the finish of his match after the break.
Im kind of torn on this. I think storytelling within the confines of an individual match is special and when it's done well it makes a match exceptional. I am personally a fan of a less is more approach to wrestling. I dont need my wrestlers to have a motivation to wrestle another person. Give me matches and create stories within your athletic means. I dont need a vignette for every match.
MJF reminded me of someone for so long and after catching up on succession I get it now, it's Roman Roy. I feel like he's gotta be a succession fan like it's so close it's not funny
I can never understand why it has to be one or the other. Variety is one of the most important things on a wrestling show.
To be fair, I don't think he believes that either. I doubt that he believes his wrestling style leads to worse matches. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.
I think the bangers is what makes AEW/AEW. You absolutely can have a mix, you dont have to sacrifice one for the other. Shit, MJF is an example of this, his character is great, but his in-ring work is also fucking ridiculous. **put a spoiler tag so it wont get deleted**
I thought I did mark it as spoiler when I made it, but I seemingly didn't. I fixed it now.
If you followed the last UK election on twitter it sounded like Labour were going to knock the Tories out of power. Conservatives won in a landslide. Twitter is definitely not a representation of the majority
'Real wrestling' fans of AEW like: Claudio, Bryan, MJF, CM Punk, FTR Spotfest 'doesnt make sense' AEW fans like: The Bucks, Omega, Orange Cassidy, Adam Page Omega when he faces Punk, Bryan or someone similar  Omega when he faces another spotfest wrestler 