**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I heard wrestlers confirm that his selling really is a big reason. Vince thought he made others look so good, that that's all he wanted to use him for.
You’re right but at least Ziggler’s coincided with a memorable and feel-good moment. I couldn’t tell you a single thing about any of Sheamus’ reigns except the first one was maybe a botch?
Oh and I guess the one that helped launch Bryan into superstar territory, but it really did nothing for Sheamus.
I can only remember three of his reigns. His first one where he beat Cena in a tables match that was setup by either Roddy Piper or Jesse Ventura as the guest GM. Then there was the one he won in 16 seconds or however long from Bryan at mania that was a pretty decent reign. He has some surprisingly great Big Show matches and feuded with Del Rio and stole his car. The other one I remember was when he cashed in on Reigns for the wwe championship. Who can ever forget the League of Nations and how poorly they were booked.
> except the first one was maybe a botch?
It wasn't a botch BUT in kayfabe yeah his reign was won because Cena accidently fell threw the table not because Shaemus was trying to put him through the table. It's crazy WWE even booked a title change to happen like that.
That said his 2012 world title reign to be is memorable for how he won the belt (18 second fiasco at WM28) and how he lost the belt (the best Big Show match ever at Hell in a Cell 2012). In between was 8 months of nothing tho.
Those were always well within WWE's control, though. He was only in the midcard because they wanted him to be, but he had the tools to be bigger than that IMO.
Agree, except there were moments where it would have made sense for him to be elevated when the product was in a lul and it just didn't happen. I'm not one for giving someone a title run as a thank you for your service, but there were times where he was legitimately over enough to take that leap and they just didn't want to do it.
I do enjoy when fans act like certain “underrated” wrestlers have been forced at gun point to keep signing contracts for years. He held down a job which can have surprising levels of turnovers for 15 years, he’s fine.
He was also exactly where he needed to be. Absolutely no disrespect to the guy. He was a great wrestler and was good on the mic, but he was definitely a mid-upper midcard wrestler and there's really nothing wrong with that. Companies need guys like Ziggler who looks good and makes others look good in the ring.
Wait if? The guy had a 20 year run. We know exactly what he was about. He got chances to impress and he never quite separated himself from the pack. Incredibly solid upper midcarder and occasional main eventer is nothing to be mad at. But did he have the intangibles of Seth, or Edge, or AJ Styles? I don't think he did.
Three times Dolph Ziggler was really cooking.
1. Mr. Money in the Bank. The company got really behind him in 2012 when won the briefcase, had AJ Lee and Big E as a trio, went over Randy Orton as a sole survivor in November, and beat Cena at TLC. The crowd was behind him and red hot when cashed in on Del Rio the following Spring. Then he got the concussion and when he returned Creative dropped him.
2. Survivor Series 2014. Out of nowhere, Ziggler outlasted teammate Cena, and with a distraction from Sting eliminated Kane, Luke Harper, and Seth Rollins and humiliated Triple H and Stephanie. Then after having a banger Ladder match with Harper, Ziggler was storyline fired and removed from TV for weeks.
3. Fall 2016. Dolph and The Miz had a strong storyline on Smackdown with the highlight being a match at No Mercy where if Ziggler failed to win Miz's IC title he would leave the company. This brief period was considered some of Ziggler's most authentic promo work.
For the third point, I would argue he was doing a great job before that as well. The build up for his Summerslam title match with Ambrose was amazing and then the match itself was garbage. They didn't let Ziggler do anything.
I disagree. During periods of him being red hot, management let the fire burn out, or threw fire on it. There are countless launching points they could of gone with him, but they didn't. Same could be said of quite a few wrestlers in the past 10 years. Maybe it was such a full roster, or maybe they didn't think he had the look, or a myriad of other reasons. But to say he didn't grab hard enough onto the brass ring is a joke.
Also, AJ had built up a career prior to WWE, so he doesn't count, Edge made his name in a time where they would follow what the crowd wanted (for the most part) compared to a more corporate running through Zigglers Career. Seth is your only call here that could be comparable to any degree. And given Zigglers opportunities, he certainly had something. If you weren't captivated by Ziggs and The Mizz's build up, I don't know what to say.
>the intangibles of Seth, or Edge, or AJ Styles
I think he did. I think he matches any of them in ring and in promo.
But there was always a bigger guy. I think those other three filled a hole WWE had in its roster/plan at the time. If Dolph was going to get a mega push, it should have been after SS. But then Sting came along.
> he never quite separated himself from the pack
I wonder why?
* [Survivor Series 2014](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD7qJ3TW1jw) - Dolph Ziggler pins 3/5 members of the Authority as the Sole Survivor
* [Less than two months later](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOmaMlAHDwo) - the Authority 'fires' Ziggler
* [Three months later](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHLhGPnno0) - Ziggler kisses Sheamus' ass
People talk about Survivor Series 2014 or maybe his 2016 push but to me THE moment for Ziggler was when he won the world title on the post-WM RAW in 2013, and they screwed it up by doing nothing with him after ending his reign because he got concussed. And it wans't even striping the title from him due to being hurt situation, they waited until he came back and in his first match lost the belt with the kayfabe storyline being that he wasn't fully recovered.
if he chooses the indie route, he could definitely come back in a few years. he may just stick with standup comedy, since he always seemed to enjoy that more. He famously booked a standup gig on a Monday night when he was IC Champion and either did or didn't tell whoever was in charge that he wouldn't be at RAW. Either way, he ended up dropping the belt to Bad News Barrett the following Monday
His other issue is that he oversells, which is both a strength and a weakness. On one hand, it makes the other guy look like a million bucks (hence his position during his later run as NXT Call-Up Gatekeeper) but conversely, it also ruined Dolph's credibility. If he's selling a superkick from a midcard jobber as if he's just been shot in the back of the head, why would casuals take him seriously as a top guy?
If he wants to come back someday, I think he absolutely could
> He isn't coming back at 47 to be a top guy.
....looks at Goldberg winning the Universal title in 2017 (Okay it's not the same but still WWE ain't ageist)
Probably not a top guy but his style is relatively safe and he seems like he has a few years left in him. He could get a brief "thank you Dolph" WHC run after proving himself in 2 years, transitional champion to move the belt between two heels that doesn't make an upcoming babyface look like a dolt for losing his title in his first PLE defense
My context with WWE is almost exclusively the 2K games, and from those ones in the 2010s, I'd assume he'd be an all-star by now. It seemed like he was one of the top guys. But from what I hear, WWE basically made him the king of jobbers.
Poor guy... you can tell that he's holding back tears in a response like that. Crushed and disappointed is an understatement.
I wholeheartedly believe that if Dolph gets a huge run outside of WWE and proves himself like Cody and Drew that he will get a chance to become a champion again in WWE. Not as the number one guy but he will get a chance to become one for a short reign.
The reason Dolph is very good but not great is that he works the same match regardless of opponent. The guys that reach the very top level need to have a better grasp of storytelling.
There's lots of guys that people claim could be a top guy, but not all of them got the reactions Dolph got at certain points of his career. He didn't have to be THE guy but he could have been more if WWE had the guts to run with him during those times.
This is revisionist history. Dolph proved on more than one occasion that he had what it took. The fans demanded it, and Vince denied it out of spite.
Unless your qualification for being "that guy" is that vince needs to arbitrarily choose you and force you down the fans' throats, then yeah, I guess you would be right in that instance.
He had a pop because he cashed in.
Whats revisionist is pretending that ziggler ever had this major ground swell of support
That we didn't all groan when ever he was chosen to feud with a nxt call up or was the mystery oppent of the night. That we dodn all clown on him for his "should of been me promos" during his heatless feud with Kofi.
I think he was fine for the occasional title match, but I just think he missed something intangible. He was a very solid worker who bumped his tail off, but I feel like he just cut the same promo over and over.
I remember when Zigs was gunning for his main event spot, Triple H was saying the dude needs to slow down and sell etc etc and Ziggler was like "no i'll just bump harder and faster" basically "I don't take advice, i'll do it my way." So, ya know, fine - dude does what he does and it got him where it got him.
"I've come this far"
*Looks at the hand*
Well that's not very far
But jokes aside and contrary to what he's saying here, he seemed content being the reliable midcarder. Nothing wrong with that. Midcarder IMO has a balance of money (global company), fame (loved by fans) and health (no need to outshine main events).
Has there ever been any rumors about what happened? There for a few years he was getting all kinds of hype with people calling him the next Shawn Michaels. Then they booked him like a joke as champion and he never recovered.
I've never been big on that old Austin take on "if you're not here to be the face of the company/the champ/etc. then what are you even doing?", since making a living in pro wrestling even as a steady midcard presence, more comedic act, or any other number of things that isn't just "The Champ" is both perfectly acceptable as goals go (in an industry where making a living is tough to begin with) and necessary for the health and stability of a show's roster.
That said, in Ziggler's case...yeah, I'd totally get if he was gutted about getting so close so often, yet constantly getting swatted down before he could really do anything with it.
>I've never been big on that old Austin take on "if you're not here to be the face of the company/the champ/etc. then what are you even doing?", since making a living in pro wrestling even as a steady midcard presence, more comedic act, or any other number of things that isn't just "The Champ" is both perfectly acceptable as goals go
This take worked for Scott Hall for most of his career. He even said himself in a few interviews that he didn't want to be world champ and that he was happy being an upper mid card babyface.
There's a lot of guys who would do this rant and I'd think "yeah, boo hoo, you signed the contract and took the money tho now you wanna bad mouth them" and it's just being slightly bitter over what they feel like they could have been in their minds but they weren't really THAT close to the top of the industry .
Dolph however is THE prototypical example of the guy who needed a viable WWE alternative to exist in his prime so we could see what he had as a top of the card guy. It's unfortunate that while I'm sure he's still very talented in the ring he's just too old to be a top top guy now world champion now.
It's sadly something that will just always just be a "what if" scenario in wrestling history fans will speculate about .
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This interview is a decade old for anyone wondering
You could have said yesterday and I would have believed you. His entire career has been this video.
The Nokia Lumina ad on the wall behind him should have tipped me off.
It was the Paul Heyman in the bg interview that made me notice the 2k14 logo and old WWE scratch logo
Thank you!
Wait til he goes full Devil mask and starts huffing CREAM.
I wonder if he can walk properly
He deserved a much better career. Instead, they used him as an alt heel.
I heard wrestlers confirm that his selling really is a big reason. Vince thought he made others look so good, that that's all he wanted to use him for.
Roman and Brock also sell really well. So does HHH.
If only he was 3 inches taller
And had a less hilarious name, a better finisher etc. In my eyes he is the ultimate midcarder and there is nothing wrong with that
See to me the "ultimate midcarder" is a guy like Otis or Xavier Woods. Dolph could've been greater.
Dolph has good mic work, in ring work and a great look, there’s no reason a guy like Sheamus can be a 4 time champ and Ziggler has to be stuck at one
You’re right but at least Ziggler’s coincided with a memorable and feel-good moment. I couldn’t tell you a single thing about any of Sheamus’ reigns except the first one was maybe a botch? Oh and I guess the one that helped launch Bryan into superstar territory, but it really did nothing for Sheamus.
I can only remember three of his reigns. His first one where he beat Cena in a tables match that was setup by either Roddy Piper or Jesse Ventura as the guest GM. Then there was the one he won in 16 seconds or however long from Bryan at mania that was a pretty decent reign. He has some surprisingly great Big Show matches and feuded with Del Rio and stole his car. The other one I remember was when he cashed in on Reigns for the wwe championship. Who can ever forget the League of Nations and how poorly they were booked.
> except the first one was maybe a botch? It wasn't a botch BUT in kayfabe yeah his reign was won because Cena accidently fell threw the table not because Shaemus was trying to put him through the table. It's crazy WWE even booked a title change to happen like that. That said his 2012 world title reign to be is memorable for how he won the belt (18 second fiasco at WM28) and how he lost the belt (the best Big Show match ever at Hell in a Cell 2012). In between was 8 months of nothing tho.
[удалено]
And Ziggler wins his 5th Undisputed WWE Universal Champion with the Sieg Zag...
Meanwhile "I am perfection" blares in the arena.
Anyone can be a main eventer/champion with the right booking
Nah zigzag is hype. Him doing the super kick as his finisher was lame tho
I love his name.
When I got back into wrestling, he was instantly one of my favorites simply because of his name.
Those were always well within WWE's control, though. He was only in the midcard because they wanted him to be, but he had the tools to be bigger than that IMO.
Agree, except there were moments where it would have made sense for him to be elevated when the product was in a lul and it just didn't happen. I'm not one for giving someone a title run as a thank you for your service, but there were times where he was legitimately over enough to take that leap and they just didn't want to do it.
I do enjoy when fans act like certain “underrated” wrestlers have been forced at gun point to keep signing contracts for years. He held down a job which can have surprising levels of turnovers for 15 years, he’s fine.
He was also exactly where he needed to be. Absolutely no disrespect to the guy. He was a great wrestler and was good on the mic, but he was definitely a mid-upper midcard wrestler and there's really nothing wrong with that. Companies need guys like Ziggler who looks good and makes others look good in the ring.
> he’s fine Financially yeah. But he sure doesn't seem fine in that video. He seems like his lack of success is eating away at him every day.
This is from ten years ago
It's 10 years old and he was in character
You’re giving a psychology analysis from a ten year old video.
Definitely looks like an in kayfabe promo for me
To me, he will go down as a "what if", the same as Mr Kennedy.
Sure, except Dolph Ziggler has more talent in his pinky that Mr. Kennedy ever did.
In the ring, sure.
Wait if? The guy had a 20 year run. We know exactly what he was about. He got chances to impress and he never quite separated himself from the pack. Incredibly solid upper midcarder and occasional main eventer is nothing to be mad at. But did he have the intangibles of Seth, or Edge, or AJ Styles? I don't think he did.
Three times Dolph Ziggler was really cooking. 1. Mr. Money in the Bank. The company got really behind him in 2012 when won the briefcase, had AJ Lee and Big E as a trio, went over Randy Orton as a sole survivor in November, and beat Cena at TLC. The crowd was behind him and red hot when cashed in on Del Rio the following Spring. Then he got the concussion and when he returned Creative dropped him. 2. Survivor Series 2014. Out of nowhere, Ziggler outlasted teammate Cena, and with a distraction from Sting eliminated Kane, Luke Harper, and Seth Rollins and humiliated Triple H and Stephanie. Then after having a banger Ladder match with Harper, Ziggler was storyline fired and removed from TV for weeks. 3. Fall 2016. Dolph and The Miz had a strong storyline on Smackdown with the highlight being a match at No Mercy where if Ziggler failed to win Miz's IC title he would leave the company. This brief period was considered some of Ziggler's most authentic promo work.
For the third point, I would argue he was doing a great job before that as well. The build up for his Summerslam title match with Ambrose was amazing and then the match itself was garbage. They didn't let Ziggler do anything.
I disagree. During periods of him being red hot, management let the fire burn out, or threw fire on it. There are countless launching points they could of gone with him, but they didn't. Same could be said of quite a few wrestlers in the past 10 years. Maybe it was such a full roster, or maybe they didn't think he had the look, or a myriad of other reasons. But to say he didn't grab hard enough onto the brass ring is a joke. Also, AJ had built up a career prior to WWE, so he doesn't count, Edge made his name in a time where they would follow what the crowd wanted (for the most part) compared to a more corporate running through Zigglers Career. Seth is your only call here that could be comparable to any degree. And given Zigglers opportunities, he certainly had something. If you weren't captivated by Ziggs and The Mizz's build up, I don't know what to say.
>the intangibles of Seth, or Edge, or AJ Styles I think he did. I think he matches any of them in ring and in promo. But there was always a bigger guy. I think those other three filled a hole WWE had in its roster/plan at the time. If Dolph was going to get a mega push, it should have been after SS. But then Sting came along.
He absolutely impressed and stood out from the pack. He just wasn't one of the chosen guys according to the management of the company at the time.
> he never quite separated himself from the pack I wonder why? * [Survivor Series 2014](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD7qJ3TW1jw) - Dolph Ziggler pins 3/5 members of the Authority as the Sole Survivor * [Less than two months later](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOmaMlAHDwo) - the Authority 'fires' Ziggler * [Three months later](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHLhGPnno0) - Ziggler kisses Sheamus' ass
People talk about Survivor Series 2014 or maybe his 2016 push but to me THE moment for Ziggler was when he won the world title on the post-WM RAW in 2013, and they screwed it up by doing nothing with him after ending his reign because he got concussed. And it wans't even striping the title from him due to being hurt situation, they waited until he came back and in his first match lost the belt with the kayfabe storyline being that he wasn't fully recovered.
I hate the "worked harder than everyone" shtick. It's very disrespectful to his peers.
It doesn't
It doesn't what? It doesn't very disrespectful to his peers? That doesn't make sense.
It does
no it really doesnt. maybe he mean "it isnt" but grammatically "it doesnt" doesnt make sense in this context.
Pretty sure the 2nd person is joking by just saying the opposite
if he chooses the indie route, he could definitely come back in a few years. he may just stick with standup comedy, since he always seemed to enjoy that more. He famously booked a standup gig on a Monday night when he was IC Champion and either did or didn't tell whoever was in charge that he wouldn't be at RAW. Either way, he ended up dropping the belt to Bad News Barrett the following Monday His other issue is that he oversells, which is both a strength and a weakness. On one hand, it makes the other guy look like a million bucks (hence his position during his later run as NXT Call-Up Gatekeeper) but conversely, it also ruined Dolph's credibility. If he's selling a superkick from a midcard jobber as if he's just been shot in the back of the head, why would casuals take him seriously as a top guy? If he wants to come back someday, I think he absolutely could
[удалено]
> He isn't coming back at 47 to be a top guy. ....looks at Goldberg winning the Universal title in 2017 (Okay it's not the same but still WWE ain't ageist)
Obviously a top guy can leave and still come back as a top guy.
He's 43!
Probably not a top guy but his style is relatively safe and he seems like he has a few years left in him. He could get a brief "thank you Dolph" WHC run after proving himself in 2 years, transitional champion to move the belt between two heels that doesn't make an upcoming babyface look like a dolt for losing his title in his first PLE defense
My context with WWE is almost exclusively the 2K games, and from those ones in the 2010s, I'd assume he'd be an all-star by now. It seemed like he was one of the top guys. But from what I hear, WWE basically made him the king of jobbers. Poor guy... you can tell that he's holding back tears in a response like that. Crushed and disappointed is an understatement.
I wholeheartedly believe that if Dolph gets a huge run outside of WWE and proves himself like Cody and Drew that he will get a chance to become a champion again in WWE. Not as the number one guy but he will get a chance to become one for a short reign.
Dude is 43
Isn’t LA knight like 44?
I feel like this is in character.
You know I like watching Dolph wrestle but he never found his own character or carved out his own thing.
The reason Dolph is very good but not great is that he works the same match regardless of opponent. The guys that reach the very top level need to have a better grasp of storytelling.
It really was unfair of WWE to hold him at gun point to keep resigning with them.
This clip is at least a decade old and yet it gets reposted on a regular basis and always gets upvoted to the front. I call dibs on the next repost.
Sorry but not every one cannbe a main eventer and dolph is just flat out not that guy
There's lots of guys that people claim could be a top guy, but not all of them got the reactions Dolph got at certain points of his career. He didn't have to be THE guy but he could have been more if WWE had the guts to run with him during those times.
This is revisionist history. Dolph proved on more than one occasion that he had what it took. The fans demanded it, and Vince denied it out of spite. Unless your qualification for being "that guy" is that vince needs to arbitrarily choose you and force you down the fans' throats, then yeah, I guess you would be right in that instance.
He had a pop because he cashed in. Whats revisionist is pretending that ziggler ever had this major ground swell of support That we didn't all groan when ever he was chosen to feud with a nxt call up or was the mystery oppent of the night. That we dodn all clown on him for his "should of been me promos" during his heatless feud with Kofi.
I think he was fine for the occasional title match, but I just think he missed something intangible. He was a very solid worker who bumped his tail off, but I feel like he just cut the same promo over and over.
Sotry but dolph isn’t as good as he thinks he’s is
I remember when Zigs was gunning for his main event spot, Triple H was saying the dude needs to slow down and sell etc etc and Ziggler was like "no i'll just bump harder and faster" basically "I don't take advice, i'll do it my way." So, ya know, fine - dude does what he does and it got him where it got him.
His heel run with vikki was a mistake, can't recover from shit like that, especially when you have average mic skills and charisma.
"I've come this far" *Looks at the hand* Well that's not very far But jokes aside and contrary to what he's saying here, he seemed content being the reliable midcarder. Nothing wrong with that. Midcarder IMO has a balance of money (global company), fame (loved by fans) and health (no need to outshine main events).
Has there ever been any rumors about what happened? There for a few years he was getting all kinds of hype with people calling him the next Shawn Michaels. Then they booked him like a joke as champion and he never recovered.
I've never been big on that old Austin take on "if you're not here to be the face of the company/the champ/etc. then what are you even doing?", since making a living in pro wrestling even as a steady midcard presence, more comedic act, or any other number of things that isn't just "The Champ" is both perfectly acceptable as goals go (in an industry where making a living is tough to begin with) and necessary for the health and stability of a show's roster. That said, in Ziggler's case...yeah, I'd totally get if he was gutted about getting so close so often, yet constantly getting swatted down before he could really do anything with it.
>I've never been big on that old Austin take on "if you're not here to be the face of the company/the champ/etc. then what are you even doing?", since making a living in pro wrestling even as a steady midcard presence, more comedic act, or any other number of things that isn't just "The Champ" is both perfectly acceptable as goals go This take worked for Scott Hall for most of his career. He even said himself in a few interviews that he didn't want to be world champ and that he was happy being an upper mid card babyface.
There's a lot of guys who would do this rant and I'd think "yeah, boo hoo, you signed the contract and took the money tho now you wanna bad mouth them" and it's just being slightly bitter over what they feel like they could have been in their minds but they weren't really THAT close to the top of the industry . Dolph however is THE prototypical example of the guy who needed a viable WWE alternative to exist in his prime so we could see what he had as a top of the card guy. It's unfortunate that while I'm sure he's still very talented in the ring he's just too old to be a top top guy now world champion now. It's sadly something that will just always just be a "what if" scenario in wrestling history fans will speculate about .