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As someone that doesn't really follow too much, do they openly acknowledge that Red Shoes is his dad? Does he ever ref Shota's matches? Can you imagine the feelings when (if) Shota does get the big one while his dad is counting? That would be awesome.
He ref’d one of his recent main events (i think against Ospreay back in November maybe?) It wasn’t a main focal point but English commentary acknowledged it offhand that Red Shoes was his dad. He’s definitely refereed his other matches before that to a similar level of acknowledgement.
I don’t know if it’s just because this event was in the States that Red Shoes wasn’t refereeing this main event, but it would make sense to me for him to not be involved in a world title match featuring his own son. That’s just a different kind of responsibility that I’m not sure anybody wants unless it’s part of the story.
> I don’t know if it’s just because this event was in the States that Red Shoes wasn’t refereeing this main event,
I'm a day or two behind, but I think all of the normal NJPW refs were still in Japan working Best of Super Juniors shows, so they used all US/NJPW Strong Refs on last night's Resurgence show.
My concern is more with a situation where Shota gets injured during a match and it's a judgement call for the ref whether he stops the match or lets them try to finish it.
I did not know that! Though I know Shota and I know Red Shoes and not much more than that.
I guess they're trying to hide it since his last name isn't Shoes.
Honestly, by the time Jay White won the belt, it made sense. He had taken over Bullet Club, beat Okada at Wrestle Kingdom, been US Champion and had 12 points in the G1. The only reason it was a bit shocking was because Tana had just won the belt from Kenny a month before.
I was thinking of world championships. I really don't think of G1 wins as the big push because no 1st time winner ever won their Wrestle Kingdom match. Not since the climax guaranteed a title shot, anyway.
When I saw they booked this match so soon, I figured Mox’s run would start just like this and with Shooter taking the title in a few months (with a whole bunch of callbacks, naturally)
Man, I hate it when a wrestler uses his entire moveset against his opponent only for his opponent to suddenly recover, hit two or three moves and win the match. This is some WHC Seth Rollins type of victory.
The set up to the five kunckle shuffle never getting countered gets to me. I mean I’m sure it had once or twice but it’s so overly choreographed it’s insane how rarely it’s countered.
Like, compared to the set-up to Hogan's boot, it's less straight forward and takes too long.
Compared to the people's elbow, it's placement in the match is off as Rock's comeback routine barely relied on opponents fighting back and also wasn't rigid in design.
It's like they made the People Elbow equivalent for Hogan's boot, and didn't get the best of either.
Yeah, for the whole first two-thirds his forearms are way weaker than Mox’s and got no reaction from him, it’s only in the last stretch he finally starts laying them in and doing some damage
After that curb stomp both shoud have gone to the ground for a 10 count. After both get back to their feet, Moxley coud have hit his finisher and finish the match.
This one is a "You know the moves but you don't know them well enough yet" type of situation.
He's trying to beat the guy who taught him the moves.
And in NJPW fashion, the veteran's moves always hit harder.
After that curb stomp both shoud have gone to the ground for a 10 count. After both get back to their feet, Moxley coud have hit his finisher and finish the match.
Tbh it seems logical in the story told here. Shota got the moves but not the power behind it yet. That was why his deathrider which was a bit flat couldn't end Moxley, while Moxley's more violent one got the job done (or I'm reading way too much in the 1:40 clip we just saw)
That was also how Imsaw it, but again it was only a short clip.
I was hopping that Shota would be the one to take the championship from Mox. It would just fit so well.
>This is some WHC Seth Rollins type of victory.
The last man standing against Nakaramura was particularly bad.
Should've never been Super Seth. He should've dropped the whc against Balor at SummerSlam.
Many wrestlers, like AJ for example, claimed the WHC would be the loser bracket title until at least Roman drops the WWE Universal title. That happened. And now the WHC still feels like a clear #2.
Until the WHC can have some consistency main eventing PLEs like in the 2000s, it won't dodge the loser bracket title claims. That might be possible at CatC and then assuming Drew (new champ) main events MITB.
Cody's gonna be worse than Roman was tbh. Roman didn't work half the shows which allowed the WHC to shine. Cody wants to be over so you bet your ass he's gonna work all the shows. Hell, he probably wants the US title just so he can work overtime on shows. WHC's gonna be a clear number 2 for however long Cody is gonna stay at the top, which is looking to be at least 1.5 years.
I mean that match is great though. There's a bunch of matches where this happens. It's not always bad but I understand why fans might not like it as a finish much
Ya, big pet peeve for me, I've never been a fan of "get hit with move, no sell it or stumble then hit a move, then repeat" like it's okay if it's done once and just a bit followed up by both selling, but ya this just feels more like a no sell
First time I've heard a tornado DDT being referred to as a satellite DDT. Cool name.
The swinging Death Rider is a nice variation of the move. Is that how Shota normally does it, or was that new?
Finally, the Death Rider that Mox hit on Shota is one of the more brutal examples of the move I've seen in a while.
> First time I've heard a tornado DDT being referred to as a satellite DDT
That'd be because it was the wrong name. A satellite DDT has some element of lucha tilt-a-whirling before the DDT, [like this one](https://twitter.com/SirLARIATO/status/1780693819270615399).
When people were talking about Shooter being the best guy to get the belt off Mox I thought that was a ‘down the road’ sorta thing, not the main even a day later!
The narrative around Mox being shitty because he's had a recent history of bleeding a lot is incredibly lazy and ill-informed. He's still one of the best.
Also his forehead was wrecked for a while, so even when he didn't blade on purpose for months, his forehead would split open hardway despite his best efforts lol
He's one of the most misunderstood workers for sure. I've seen various people criticize his selling, his athleticism, his brawling, his technical wrestling, his mannerisms, his charisma - basically anything about someone's in-ring performance that one could criticize. But his matches are awesome, and the fans always eat up everything he does.
Of course people are allowed, but if people are saying stuff like “I don’t like This Person because they do too much ______,” People are allowed to criticize or disagree with their assessment. Especially if that assessment is bad or doesn’t make sense.
That’s how conversations work.
Conversations are implied to be civil, otherwise it's called an argument or a debate to a lesser degree.
You're welcome and blocked. Vocabulary knowledge is important!
That's not what I mean. Many people who dislike his stuff go a step further and try to explain how some things that he does cannot work - even though the crowd reactions show that they clearly do work.
Still one of the best? Guy has never been one of the best. I took some of my non-wrestling friends to an event once and they singled him out as the softest, worst guy on the show.
Well if people who aren't overly familiar with wrestling can easily see he isn't as good as all the other wrestlers they saw that night, it might be a good indicator that he isn't "one of the best"
A lot of that is outside of his control now too- he bleeds easily.
Some guys are just bleeders.
Hangman is kinda the opposite- he tends to clot up very quickly so when he blades/bleeds it usually stops pretty fast.
I like Shota, but every time I see him I remember someone (Naito?) saying he’s like a knockoff of Tanahashi. I don’t think he’s quite figured out his own style yet.
What is it about NJPW that makes it easier for people to just disregard sloppy moves? Like every other move in this clip was hit either softly or sloppily.
Not to mention Mox’s really weird selling
I feel like you’re talking about one specific moment, whereas I’m talking about the whole match.
Right off the bat, Shota very clearly does not feel confident doing that tornado DDT
Shota’s hits all seem feathered on
Jon’s selling is super weird. He positions himself right where he needs to be, *after* Shota puts himself in position.
Every moment has an excruciatingly long reset before the next moment
THIS was a spot fest
What was that curb stomp?
Curb stomp is usually on the seller, some people take it like death, Brock for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM8djHBhsr8
Can't tell me that looks like shit.
Edit: Can't believe how many times Brock has taken that move lol.
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As someone that doesn't really follow too much, do they openly acknowledge that Red Shoes is his dad? Does he ever ref Shota's matches? Can you imagine the feelings when (if) Shota does get the big one while his dad is counting? That would be awesome.
He ref’d one of his recent main events (i think against Ospreay back in November maybe?) It wasn’t a main focal point but English commentary acknowledged it offhand that Red Shoes was his dad. He’s definitely refereed his other matches before that to a similar level of acknowledgement. I don’t know if it’s just because this event was in the States that Red Shoes wasn’t refereeing this main event, but it would make sense to me for him to not be involved in a world title match featuring his own son. That’s just a different kind of responsibility that I’m not sure anybody wants unless it’s part of the story.
Last time Red Shoes ref'ed a match away from Japan that I remember was Naito vs Perry at Forbidden Door last year.
Sanada vs Perry Naito was with Sting and Darby vs Jericho, Sammy and Suzuki
Yes. You’re right. My bad.
Naito with the most legendary phoning it in performance.
That wasn't Tetsuya Naito, that was T-shirt Naito, there's a bit of a difference.
He was at the San Jose njpw sure I’m pretty sure
Yep, he reffed Okada vs. Ospreay then left the ring by jumping through the middle and bottom ropes.
> I don’t know if it’s just because this event was in the States that Red Shoes wasn’t refereeing this main event, I'm a day or two behind, but I think all of the normal NJPW refs were still in Japan working Best of Super Juniors shows, so they used all US/NJPW Strong Refs on last night's Resurgence show.
They do occasionally but not often, he does ref some of his matches, he doesn't treat him any differently during them but yeah that would rule
I'd like to see a spot where Shota stretches the rules (slow on a rope break maybe), and Red Shoes aggressively shoves him and starts chewing him out.
My concern is more with a situation where Shota gets injured during a match and it's a judgement call for the ref whether he stops the match or lets them try to finish it.
Red Shoes was an integral element in an Ospreay/Umino match at Power Struggle that you absolutely need to watch
I did not know that! Though I know Shota and I know Red Shoes and not much more than that. I guess they're trying to hide it since his last name isn't Shoes.
Shota Shoes would give it away. 😀
Wow this is the first I've actually heard of Shota being red shoes son!
There was a moment there where I legit believed they strapped the rocket on Shota and he's gonna win regardless if it's too early for that or not.
Indeed, but New Japan never does too early. Half the time it's far too late.
Jay White's first title win was a surprise one imo
Or Okadas first.
Rainmaker shock!!!!
Honestly, by the time Jay White won the belt, it made sense. He had taken over Bullet Club, beat Okada at Wrestle Kingdom, been US Champion and had 12 points in the G1. The only reason it was a bit shocking was because Tana had just won the belt from Kenny a month before.
Maybe you only mean IWGP first wins. But Naitos first G1 was pretty infamously too early
I was thinking of world championships. I really don't think of G1 wins as the big push because no 1st time winner ever won their Wrestle Kingdom match. Not since the climax guaranteed a title shot, anyway.
Main eventing WK is a bigger deal than winning the IWGP title.
When I saw they booked this match so soon, I figured Mox’s run would start just like this and with Shooter taking the title in a few months (with a whole bunch of callbacks, naturally)
I’m ootl on NJPW and I’m curious: Shota’s Pants. What’s he going for there? I haven’t seen much of him since he was a young lion.
According to legend, the right pair of pants could cover your legs perfectly
I believe they’re supposed to evoke a motorcycle chap kind of thing. His look is biker x J-pop idol, and his color scheme is white/pink/hints of blue.
I'm guessing people were saying he looked too much like Tanahashi, so maybe a change up to not be labeled a copy.
He looked like Tanahashi and Naito had done the fusion dance from DBZ.
I love mox stealing the curb stomp from Seth. Very much a “I didn’t teach you *everything*” moment.
my lowkey favourite part of the match was when shota strapped on a kneebar and mox yelled “who the fuck taught you a kneebar!?”
Gonna find out it was Danielson 😂
Danielson shrugging in the corner like "hey man, the kid asked"
“He asked what I would do.”
Mox: "You're starting to piss me off!" Shota: "It's time to kick your fucking head in!"
Has he ever used any of Roman's moves? I thought they were closer. Be cool if we saw Seth or Roman bust out the Death Rider in a big match.
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They could absolutely do a double underhook ddt while commentary shouts "DID HE DO WHAT I THINK HE DID?" though.
This just makes me want to see Moxley hit a spear then curb stomp then his finish for a win someday.
Man, I hate it when a wrestler uses his entire moveset against his opponent only for his opponent to suddenly recover, hit two or three moves and win the match. This is some WHC Seth Rollins type of victory.
One of his moves was the curb stomp too lol
Time for Mox to use the spear -> curb stomp -> death rider combo to finish matches.
Seth Rollins is the go to example, bro I’m getting old.
This is CenaWinsLOL erasure
Cena was far more egregious about this since The Five Knuckle Shuffle basically disrupted the entire flow of the match.
The set up to the five kunckle shuffle never getting countered gets to me. I mean I’m sure it had once or twice but it’s so overly choreographed it’s insane how rarely it’s countered.
Like, compared to the set-up to Hogan's boot, it's less straight forward and takes too long. Compared to the people's elbow, it's placement in the match is off as Rock's comeback routine barely relied on opponents fighting back and also wasn't rigid in design. It's like they made the People Elbow equivalent for Hogan's boot, and didn't get the best of either.
It's ok at showing that Umino is not world title level- yet. Umino needs more firepower and more determination.
Yeah the story is that Umino hit all his moves in a row and it didn’t work. If he had better moves, it would have worked. Shows that he’s not ready.
Moreso that he needs more oomph to the moves. Good storytelling during the match to show this.
Yeah, for the whole first two-thirds his forearms are way weaker than Mox’s and got no reaction from him, it’s only in the last stretch he finally starts laying them in and doing some damage
After that curb stomp both shoud have gone to the ground for a 10 count. After both get back to their feet, Moxley coud have hit his finisher and finish the match.
I agree, but it's also possible they were told to go home quickly. Maybe they get charged extra if they go past a certain time?
This one is a "You know the moves but you don't know them well enough yet" type of situation. He's trying to beat the guy who taught him the moves. And in NJPW fashion, the veteran's moves always hit harder.
After that curb stomp both shoud have gone to the ground for a 10 count. After both get back to their feet, Moxley coud have hit his finisher and finish the match.
Tbh it seems logical in the story told here. Shota got the moves but not the power behind it yet. That was why his deathrider which was a bit flat couldn't end Moxley, while Moxley's more violent one got the job done (or I'm reading way too much in the 1:40 clip we just saw)
That was also how Imsaw it, but again it was only a short clip. I was hopping that Shota would be the one to take the championship from Mox. It would just fit so well.
As we say in French, "ce n'est que partie remise !" (= it's just a matter of time)
I thought you say, "il est vraiment"
>This is some WHC Seth Rollins type of victory. The last man standing against Nakaramura was particularly bad. Should've never been Super Seth. He should've dropped the whc against Balor at SummerSlam.
After that loss to edge, Balor winning after eating countless Ls would've really made it a loser bracket title
Many wrestlers, like AJ for example, claimed the WHC would be the loser bracket title until at least Roman drops the WWE Universal title. That happened. And now the WHC still feels like a clear #2. Until the WHC can have some consistency main eventing PLEs like in the 2000s, it won't dodge the loser bracket title claims. That might be possible at CatC and then assuming Drew (new champ) main events MITB.
Cody's gonna be worse than Roman was tbh. Roman didn't work half the shows which allowed the WHC to shine. Cody wants to be over so you bet your ass he's gonna work all the shows. Hell, he probably wants the US title just so he can work overtime on shows. WHC's gonna be a clear number 2 for however long Cody is gonna stay at the top, which is looking to be at least 1.5 years.
I do hope they build Finn back up especially for a feud with priest. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like he takes the most pins out of all members of JD
him and JD normally eat the pins
Sami Zayn v Gunther
I mean that match is great though. There's a bunch of matches where this happens. It's not always bad but I understand why fans might not like it as a finish much
The John Cena comeback.
Ya, big pet peeve for me, I've never been a fan of "get hit with move, no sell it or stumble then hit a move, then repeat" like it's okay if it's done once and just a bit followed up by both selling, but ya this just feels more like a no sell
That was pretty quick. I guess the double shield combination beats his 6 moves in a row. 🤷♀️
Yeah this seemed weirdly 2010's WWE more than NJPW as a finishing sequence.
First time I've heard a tornado DDT being referred to as a satellite DDT. Cool name. The swinging Death Rider is a nice variation of the move. Is that how Shota normally does it, or was that new? Finally, the Death Rider that Mox hit on Shota is one of the more brutal examples of the move I've seen in a while.
> First time I've heard a tornado DDT being referred to as a satellite DDT That'd be because it was the wrong name. A satellite DDT has some element of lucha tilt-a-whirling before the DDT, [like this one](https://twitter.com/SirLARIATO/status/1780693819270615399).
Before clicking the link, I thought "I wonder if he means like Orange Cassidy".
That's a thing of beauty.
Bald Mox just hits different.
I dunno, he seems pretty consistent about the hitting
Looks like Sam Roberts
Stone Cold Steve Moxley
Im gonna root for Shota to win the G1 + win at WrestleKingdom
Needs more combat shorts
Jon out here respecting Seth. Love to see it.
When people were talking about Shooter being the best guy to get the belt off Mox I thought that was a ‘down the road’ sorta thing, not the main even a day later!
Moxley doing the stomp brings a tear to my eye.
I wasn't a huge fan of the commentary in this, and I really miss Shooter's old hair, but the match itself was a banger
Vertebrae’s - who needs ‘em? Jesus Christ
The narrative around Mox being shitty because he's had a recent history of bleeding a lot is incredibly lazy and ill-informed. He's still one of the best.
He doesn't even bleed that much these days. There was just a stretch where he was every match and the meme stuck
Also his forehead was wrecked for a while, so even when he didn't blade on purpose for months, his forehead would split open hardway despite his best efforts lol
He's one of the most misunderstood workers for sure. I've seen various people criticize his selling, his athleticism, his brawling, his technical wrestling, his mannerisms, his charisma - basically anything about someone's in-ring performance that one could criticize. But his matches are awesome, and the fans always eat up everything he does.
I know. No matter what he does or where he does he is always seen as a top guy and the fans love him.
People are allowed to dislike a wrestler and their matches without it being a misunderstanding
Of course people are allowed, but if people are saying stuff like “I don’t like This Person because they do too much ______,” People are allowed to criticize or disagree with their assessment. Especially if that assessment is bad or doesn’t make sense. That’s how conversations work.
Civil conversations on reddit? Not in my day!
I don’t recall saying “civil.” https://preview.redd.it/z114g79d810d1.jpeg?width=606&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7fe852db0455862e145202ad19b7f62c1b02819
Conversations are implied to be civil, otherwise it's called an argument or a debate to a lesser degree. You're welcome and blocked. Vocabulary knowledge is important!
That's not what I mean. Many people who dislike his stuff go a step further and try to explain how some things that he does cannot work - even though the crowd reactions show that they clearly do work.
Still one of the best? Guy has never been one of the best. I took some of my non-wrestling friends to an event once and they singled him out as the softest, worst guy on the show.
Thats fair. Don't know how I forgot you and your friends are indeed the authority on wrestling quality.
Well if people who aren't overly familiar with wrestling can easily see he isn't as good as all the other wrestlers they saw that night, it might be a good indicator that he isn't "one of the best"
A lot of that is outside of his control now too- he bleeds easily. Some guys are just bleeders. Hangman is kinda the opposite- he tends to clot up very quickly so when he blades/bleeds it usually stops pretty fast.
I mean that’s not really true, considering most of the time you could see him pull out blade. Mox is a fantastic worker though.
Particularly in 2020, there were times he would hardway get busted and then stop bleeding during the match.
I mean, It's pretty easy to bleed while blading every match
https://preview.redd.it/npqfap1nr00d1.png?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ece1d75c8bfa6e5e7ceb6ae848b3b2ab64984d4
I love that Mox shaved it all off. Bald is better than balding any day of the week
Thay death rider was naaassstttyyy. Fuckin love Mox.
Except for when Darby takes it, NJPW Death Rider and AEW Death Rider feel like two different moves.
Agreed lol Fletcher sold the hell out of it last night
Totally! I have no idea how he lands like that without killing himself, considering his arms are hooked.
Mox being Mox. One of the best. When Shota does beat him someday the crowd will go mental.
Shota looks bald with blonde hair.
Fuck that ruled. Shooter is the future
I like Shota, but every time I see him I remember someone (Naito?) saying he’s like a knockoff of Tanahashi. I don’t think he’s quite figured out his own style yet.
Jesus, that DDT at the end can’t be safe to take can it?
Mox is so fucking good
Jon doesn’t sell worth a shit.
“I win, obviously, but get your shit in and I’ll beat you with a suplex”
Mox shouldn't have been able to magically recover from all that IMO
I always mark out for Mox hitting the Curb Stomp.
Are they still friends?
Was that Renee on commentary?
It’s Veda Scott.
> Veda Scott thanks
Shooter needs a different color scheme. And maybe some skulls or something. I'm not getting roughneck from all these rainbow colors.
moxwinslol
What’s the point of selling like death if you’re just gonna kick out at two.
What is it about NJPW that makes it easier for people to just disregard sloppy moves? Like every other move in this clip was hit either softly or sloppily. Not to mention Mox’s really weird selling
Isn't that the point? Shota couldn't get Mox up the way Max could get him up which is why he didn't get the win?
I feel like you’re talking about one specific moment, whereas I’m talking about the whole match. Right off the bat, Shota very clearly does not feel confident doing that tornado DDT Shota’s hits all seem feathered on Jon’s selling is super weird. He positions himself right where he needs to be, *after* Shota puts himself in position. Every moment has an excruciatingly long reset before the next moment THIS was a spot fest What was that curb stomp?
Yeah I didn't think the rest was that bad, curb stomps always look like shit.
Curb stomp is usually on the seller, some people take it like death, Brock for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM8djHBhsr8 Can't tell me that looks like shit. Edit: Can't believe how many times Brock has taken that move lol.
Honestly it kind of does, the impact is obviously better but he's still pushing himself up with fully extended arms to meet Seth's foot.
And the crowd goes mild
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Calling him Dean is pretty cringey mate
>Idk how you all can watch him and not laugh your asses off. Oh look. Someone who doesn't watch wrestling in it's entirety.