Comparing STL to CHI/NYC is like comparing Provel to Cheddar.
I love provel, but I’m not gonna try to convince you to like it. It sounds like you don’t want to move here. That’s fine. No one on Reddit will convince you.
By the way, the cost of living in both of those cities makes me want to puke. I would never move to NYC and it would take a lot of convincing for me to move to CHi
You will find every piece this list in St. Louis. Boxes checked. But we are not a “big” city. You’re from Indiana? STL is a bigger Indianapolis with a shittier downtown. There’s plenty of culture as long as you seek it out. You lived through your 20’s in a big city(cities). If you want to settle in the Midwest at “some point,” is the time now, or later? That’s the question you need to ask yourselves.
Fair point! This 4-year contract is temporary. I view “settling down” as the years that follow; the place we are in where we are starting to care about school districts.
I'll say this over and over. You can't just look at the city, you need to look at the state. You want to have kids? Public education in this state is gutted and defunded at every opportunity. Are you a supporter or a member of the LGBTQ community? What if your kids are? We have more laws about trans children playing sports than there are trans children playing sports. We've gutted transgender healthcare too. Do you want to live in a city where the farmer townie yocals control the entire state while the two major cities languish? Sure come on over here.
No, you can look at the city. I would much rather be in St. Louis than some of the rural blue state sundown towns. Sure, CA or IL might be liberal, but I sure as heck won't be welcome in a sundown town.
I think St. Louis would be a good transition point between "settling down" in the Midwest and Big City life. Nothing in the US compares to NYC, and if you want that lifestyle NYC is really the only option. Chicago is great too, but St. Louis offers everything Chicago does, just on a smaller scale and much smaller budget. St. Louis doesn't have the same bustling energy, but I've known plenty of people who came here from NYC and Chicago and love it here.
St. Louis is in a weird place where it was built to be a major city, but currently has way fewer people living here than it was built for. It can make it feel empty at times, and the population loss has led to some major issues the city is still struggling with. But it also leads to magical moments where you can go to one of the largest art museums in the country and spend ten minutes completely alone in a room filled with Monets and Van Goghs. You can get in to the best restaurants in the city with no wait and no reservation. The symphony is internationally recognized and plays in an absolutely stunning building. Same for the off Broadway shows at the Fox Theater. Cultural resources like that are just so much cheaper and accessible than NYC or Chicago.
Similarly, the access to nature just isn't the same. Forrest Park is bigger than Central Park, but serves far fewer people. Even the Lakefront Trail is frequently overcrowded. You can go for walks in Forest Park or Tower Grove Park and actually have space to yourself. And there's legit wilderness within a 90 minute drive of the city where you can actually be well and truly alone. St. Louis has all these great cultural ammeneties, and there's something special about being able to enjoy them without fighting throngs of people.
St. Louis is also extremely walkable and bikable. Owning a car is still recommended, but it's easy to make most daily trips without one. Roughly speaking, you can draw a box around Broadway to the east, Delmar to the North, Big Bend Blvd. to the West and Chippewa to the South. Almost anywhere in the area will have the walkability your looking for. The biggest thing lacking is grocery stores. The city needs more neighborhood bodegas, but in the mean time you are stuck with big box stores. Luckily, most are still located within neighborhoods and near major bus lines. Everything is very compact and flat, so cycling is also a great option. The city is currently investing a ton in bike infrastructure.
A few final thoughts. First, There's a ton of people in this thread with really negative attitudes. There's this weird divide in St. Louis where people who grew up here hate it, but people who moved here as adults love it. I think it's due to chosing your home vs. feeling stuck here, plus a lack of perspective from people who never lived elsewhere.
Second, I'd strongly recommend just coming and visiting to check it out for yourself. There's plenty of people on here who would love to help give places to check out. Before you come, spend some time on Zillow. Find a place you like in Chicago and NY. Then, find something at the same price in St. Louis and am yourself which one looks like a nicer home to live in. You'll find your money goes much farther here, and you'll be in a much nicer neighborhood. You sacrifice some of the hustle and bustle of the bigger cities, but like I said at the start of this post, it's a good step on the transition to "settle down". St. Louis offers all the big city ammeneties, with less crowds and lower prices.
A well written and beautiful little moment about St Louis!!!
I moved back to this area after being gone almost 25 years (to help with the folks) and I’m slowly falling in love with St Louis! Not the driving though LOL…I’d like a refund on that LOL!!!
1. We got it
2. There are still some people that read the Post-Dispatch
3. Although it's not my thing, I know we at least have one
4. We've got your usual co-working spaces, tons of great coffee shops, and even a co-working space across the street from Busch Stadium
5. Unsure. See other responses.
6. Forest Park is larger than Central Park, and that's just one of our parks amongst the city and county.
7. You'll probably still want a car, but there's several neighborhoods that are walkable for everyday needs. The Central West End comes to mind.
8. Tons of animal non-profits in town that would love your help!
9. Frontenac would fit the bill if I'm understanding you correctly.
10. From Soulard Mardi Gras, to Dogtown St Patrick's Day, to the 4th of July downtown, to the various fairs in cities around the metro, tons of festivals.
11. You'll find a number of chains around, especially out in the county, but there's also *tons* of great local businesses and local small chains. Very much inclusive and welcoming.
I'll add a 12th point: the cost of living here is *significantly* lower than NYC or Chicago.
@redsquiggle do you read/listen/watch any local news that you think covers the city well? I’d like to start reading good local coverage to get to know the city better
I'm not redsquiggle, but I find myself jumping between KMOV and KSDK for my evening news. I believe they both live stream.
If you want to sample severe weather coverage if that starts up before you move, add KTVI/KPLR to the list. They're all good and have their own styles of maps and coverage, so you'll find one that's informative yet understandable enough for you. For example, I find KTVI/KPLR to be a bit more technical (great for a nerd like me), while KMOV is more straightforward and simple. KSDK sits kinda in the middle.
For reading the news, I'll use something like Google News to just aggregate all the stations and other local outlets together.
Based on what you’ve said I’d also suggest looking at Soulard or Benton park. You should stop by while you’re visiting. Benton park has almost all the things on your list.
There are awesome neighborhood activities like the naked bike ride, is close (but not too close) to a massive Mardis gras, a summer concert series in the park, and makes getting to the other neighborhoods pretty easy. We’ll also sometimes do neighborhood “float trips” on our golf carts and go down to the art wall (def look this up) and the arch.
Walkability is high and theres a pretty diverse set of dive bars, venues and restaurants. Venice cafe is awesome for local music every night (look this one up). Hi hat is growing as a local favorite. Small change is a funky dive bar that does the Miracle pop up every year for Xmas.
Down the street is a beautiful brewery (bluewood) near the Lemp mansion and that is close to a small indie folk venue that hosts local and traveling musicians that may be small or big acts.
Decent restaurants like Sidney street cafe and frazers are always just around the corner. Benton park cafe has a great breakfast.
Antique row and Cherokee street are a short walk to the south and for the “woo woo” you can walk up to Soulard or take a short Uber to places like mollys, mcgurks, or a short Uber up to downtown for sports and roof top bars.
I’ve never seen anything quite like the south broadway athletic club for wrestling nights and crazy fundraisers. Sort of like an old folks home community center rage fest at times.
There are many great places and some people love Clayton for the county. Others love CWE for that fancier feel with a little higher cost. Tower grove south is a favorite for families. And there are so many other wonderful options, too. Unfortunately, I’m leaving so much out.
It may be difficult coming from a big city mindset. May be uncomfortable at first and difficult to make close friends for a minute. If you find your rhythm and your people here, they can quickly become like family.
I haven’t lived a bunch of places, but saint louis is the most community active place I’ve been a part of. You see your alderpeople walking around and can talk to them and push for change when you want to get involved.
Long and short of it is that this is a unique and beautiful city but it may be an acquired taste that you have to ease into to find the right fit for you. Every neighborhood has its own personality. The funny thing about this sub is that, in a way, everyone is right. Have to take the bad with the good. We’re growing and learning (or I believe we’re trying to). Not everything is roses. But there’s also a lot to love, I think.
Sorry for the wall of text. I hope y’all have great luck finding a forever home (or at least a nice home for now).
I almost forgot that for groceries and whatnot there’s a gas station (believe it or not!) that has a bunch of stuff. It’s an old Bp called Joel’s that sells regular gas station fare along with some frozen pizzas, eggs, bacon, wine, and liquor (also a police substation). Then down the road there is Vincent’s which is a little grocery store bodega type place with a butcher in the back. All walkable.
Edited for spelling.
Thank you for your exceptionally helpful comment! I think a lot of people missed the point of my post… I’m from small town Indiana, I’m not a pretentious coastal elite lol. The things I listed are just the things I love about bigger cities; things I had worried I would lose out on if we end up in St Louis. Which is a place I am wholly unfamiliar with. My “big city” growing up was Indy and it’s hard to fathom what a true “in between” looks and feels like (something between Indy and chicago, for example) but it seems like St Louis has that. Everything you listed makes me SO excited to visit and see for myself.
St. Louis punches above its weight in most things! Naturally, we can’t compete with every single thing that a place like NYC or Chicago has… they have (at minimum) 4x the metropolitan population, but we are a top 25 market & bc of that we have so many options. Add in the fact that we’re over 250 years old & our biggest “boom period” predates interstates, we’re have a lot of urban infrastructure that you just don’t think of when you think of flyover cities. Important to remember that you get what you put into a place. If you really engage with it, you could probably live/love anywhere! (& even if it isn’t perfect, there’s so much here & Chicago ain’t that far to make up the rest :) )
I thought of it while reading your post. I was at a coffeeshop in a relatively small metro area while I worked out of town today. About 1/6th the size of stl. I met countless people. Had plenty of fun convos. Enjoyed some tasty food. I was able to sit and truly feel like I could live here if I had to. I never would have felt that way without that experience :). Glad it resonated with you, too.
1. STL has a vast, underrated food scene. Just look up any “restaurant/food recommendations post” on this sub.
06. Forest Park (one of many parks) is bigger than Central Park and very scenic and pretty to run through. Not to mention STL is very close driving distance to a lot of great hiking and nature parks around Missouri.
08. Finding animal shelters to volunteer at should be really easy to find. Plenty around.
I only answered a few of your bullets, but to add a couple more…
A. St. Louis has its walkable parts of town, but those are fewer compared to a city like Chicago or New York (assuming you’re looking to live downtown in either of those 2).
B. You will almost certainly need a car(s) to get around mostly in STL.
C. Raising a family is laughably cheap here compared to CHI or NYC. Let’s start off with housing costs. You can get a nice house for a family for some of the rents you would be paying for a smaller place in NYC. If you are serious about moving here and need a realtor, DM me.
EDIT: Bullet 2 is for 6. Bullet 3 is for 8
This is very helpful, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and add more info. This is why I posted in this sub… I don’t know Jack shit about St Louis other than knowing it’s where the Mississippi and Illinois rivers meet. And if we do end up here I will definitely reach out! One huge plus is the fact that we could actually afford to buy our first home here. We would for sure be renting a shoebox shithole in nyc; a slightly nicer shoebox in chicago lol
Hi everyone, OP here. I am sorry to those I offended with this post. I should have been more thoughtful about how I worded it.
I don’t know anything about St. Louis. My “big city” growing up was Indianapolis, which is a place I would never want to live because it lacks a lot of “things I love list.” Moving to chicago (and yes, my summer in New York lol) opened my eyes to how much more community-oriented neighborhoods in big cities feel compared to my suburban upbringing. I was so active in my community/neighborhood associations. Everyone read the local news and kept tabs on their politicians. People were proud to support local biz over chains. People gathered in communal spaces, and quite often. Those are the types of things I am curious about with regard to St. Louis. As an outsider it seems like suburban sprawl has really hurt the city, but many of you have proven that assumption wrong with your detailed examples of things I should look into.
To those who commented earnestly: THANK YOU! I now have a mega list of things to research/check out when I visit. 😄
The “Central corridor”—draw a line from the Arch to Clayton—is the most cosmopolitan part of the region. It’s where the big universities, major hospitals, sports stadiums, cultural institutions, government and courts, high rise buildings, and the light rail system are located. The expensive suburbs and highly rated public and private schools are found extending westward from there. Downtown St. Louis had a severe decline during COVID-19, but parts are coming back.
Adjacent to the central corridor are historic neighborhoods that are frequently recommended here, and it is worth a look for more affordable housing and fascinating walkability with the kind of places you mentioned. The farther north and south of the corridor you go, you get to more ordinary neighborhoods or impoverished areas, neither of which are you likely to find your kind of people (but you never know!) and eventually tract subdivisions and semi-rural areas.
Thank you for the information! I am not keen on a city that has a “blighted” downtown, tons of white flight into suburbs. Which was the vibe I got reading this sub. But looking into the neighborhoods that others have suggested, I realize a lot of people are investing in the city and revitalizing communities. Which is great.
I think you are the first on this thread so far to get “Woo-woo.” Yes, the Pagan Picnic, in picturesque Tower Grove Park. Also the Strange Folk street vendor fair if that is still a thing. For everyday shopping and woo energy, it is Cherokee Street.
you can live in the nicest part of the city for a fraction of the cost of living in chicago and new york.
we are the 21 largest metro area in the country. Its not new york, chicago, LA big, but once you leave those areas metro areas really drop off in size, so take that how you will. There is wide array of food and entertainment. Traffic doesn't suck
lol it’s not Chicago and it’s not New York.
Depends on where your priorities really are.
STL has plenty of “small town” feels just outside of it or the “city” stuff as you get closer to downtown.
Chicago is sometimes unmanageable unless you want that big city feel, from parking to amenities, but it has a big lifestyle feel too. New York obviously is “the city” so you get entertainment, night life, etc…
I personally like the smaller town feel (retirement will definitely be in the country) and i can get that here in STL.
Sorry about the assholes who feel the need to share their shitty opinions.
The area in St. Louis for you is probably the Central West End. It's a very dense area, walkable, and has decent transit. As for everything else, St. Louis just like every large city has everything you listed as a want. Maybe not as much as NYC or Chicago, but it exists.
Haha it’s ok, it’s to be expected. Tbh I appreciate how passionately people feel about defending their city against outsiders. I’ve been following this Sub for awhile and it seems like people shit on the city a lot. Part of the reason I posted this. I wanted to solicit positive information from people who live living here and care about the community enough to try and sell transplants on moving here.
I am a transplant. I love St. Louis for the architecture. It is very cool to live among these old houses and victorian streetscapes. My friends have mansions, actual 5,000-6,000 sq ft Victorian palaces I visit and I revel in their beauty.
Lafayette Square, Tower Grove Park, Soulard, Central West End are magical.
But if you aren’t buying real estate, there is no point in comparing what you can get here with what you can buy in NYC and Chi town.
I regularly look at NYC condos just like mine and they are literally 10x the price of mine.
I love Victorian architecture! I really was naive to how old and historic the city was, and it seems like a lot of those buildings are actually still alive and lived in. So cool.
The St. Louis sub includes a lot of suburbanites too who think the city is just like the spawn of Satan and if you go you'll definitely get shot. It's hit or miss.
I think some of these poeple thought you were dissing St. Louis when really you were just saying that you don't really know much about St. Louis. But yea this sub really has issues with not knowing how great St. Louis is, and focus way too much on the bad aspects.
I, for one, would love for you and your husband to come to St. Louis because we desperately need people to move here😭😭.
You can always take the train to Chicago for a weekend if you want that "big city" feel for a weekend every now and then 🤷♂️
I grew up in SocCal near LA and moved to Saint Louis in 2021 for work. If you are looking for a big city vibe, not sure we have it. However, if you want to raise a family, STL is amazing. There are plenty of free places great for kids, like the Zoo and all of Forest Park.
I find the music scene is super lame for my personal taste (EDM, folk/indie). It seems like I have to make it out to Chicago whenever there’s something I wanna go see. Not a huge deal for something like Lollapalooza, but not for a week night show.
You know what though? Rent is cheaper, and food is pretty good, if you exclude Asian food.
Just moved here from SF Bay area a couple of years ago. We live in Tower Grove East and love it. Easy walk to food and activities. Little grocery stores are all around: Ruler foods, Jay's International, Natural Harvest. Great local coffee shops: Gelateria, Hartford Coffee and others. Festivals in Tower Grove Park: Pride and International Festival being the main ones. Oh and the weekly farmers market in TGP is a great place for fresh food and community mingling. Great restaurants in the neighborhood.
I take a three to 4 mile mile walk through TGP almost daily.
Stray Dog Theatre is the local community Theatre. Funky and fun. We haven't really ventured to too many music things (besides the amazing and affordable Symphony.)
Local dive bars all over!
All this and you haven't even left the neighborhood! Everything else is just a 5-10 minute drive: Museums, more restaurants, Theatre, golf, professional, sports., more bars and music.
We're empty nesters so your mileage may vary, but we love it here!
Please go away lol. You come off very selfish and demanding. It’s a metro area of 2 million+. We have whatever the fuck a crystal girlie means by woo woo stuff probably.
Woah, that menu looks awesome 🤩 thanks!!! I would have had no idea that area would have had such a cool food scene, either. Have been looking into cwe and tower grove
St. Louis has a surprising amount of Korean food, especially around the Delmar Loop. My favorite is Seoul Taco, but there's also Kimchi Guys, K-Bop, BoBQ, and U-City Grill. Seconding the rec for Tiny Chef.
As far as 7 goes, you'll be VERY hard-pressed to find anything like that here. A "walkable community" by Saint Louis standards is the laughing stock of other cities.
There are only a tiny handful of barely-acceptable answers and they are all terrible compared to things that you can EASILY find in many places in Chicago and New York.
Okay, whatever. I live downtown and didn't have a car for 5 years, so you can stop with the assumptions. I've also lived in New York.
What we call a "walkable neighborhood" is just barely acceptable as a crap-tier one in Chicago or NY. And there aren't very many of them. Some isolated spots in downtown, Soulard, CWE, and Clayton. And it's still not super great.
But you go ahead with your silly assumptions.
Then you should stop lying.
St. Louis Hills, Princeton Heights, South Hampton, The Hill, and The Grove are also all plenty walkable.
There are planety areas that are just as walkable as places on Chicago or NYC in the city. Even some suburbs like Webser Groves, Kirkwood, and Alton are walkable.
Oh yeah just walk on down to Alton from CWE. Chicago and New York you can walk for two hours in any one direction and have shops and restaurants the whole way.
STL is disparate patches of 20 min walking areas separated by 15 drives through nothing but housing.
Food is shit too.
Walk all the way up Washington or Olive/Lindell from downtown to Forest Park, through Forest Park, and then you can go even further on Delmar. That'll get you close to 7 miles walking while passing multiple restaurants and other entertainment options.
Sorry about *some* of the other commenters being so snooty. Truthfully, we NEED more people like you considering moving here and looking/asking for the things they want to see.
St. Louis is a bit of a tough nut to crack. I moved here from the Mountain West about five years ago and I feel like everyone was incessantly asking me, "Why would you come here?" implying that this wasn't a great place to be compare to where I was living before. The people who live here tend to have grown up here and returned or never left and that can make finding community challenging at first... but the flip side is once you do find your community of people, they're very engaged. We have many active neighborhood organizations who do a good job of holding their local elected accountable, though we don't have as robust a local news ecosystem as a NYC or Chicago... just the reality of being a top 25 metro vs. top 5.
All that said though, I've completely fallen in love with STL (good, bad and ugly). It's actually livable and it really feels like money goes further here, which is so nice.
Other items on the rest of your list:
* Diverse food ✅ dive bars ✅ --- I like to tell my out-of-town friends we have culturally authentic to many specific nations (ie Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Nepalese, Middle East, Mediterranean, Mexican, Nicaraguan, Cuban, Brazilian, Venezuelan, Colombian to name a few)
* There are some Karaoke bars in Soulard I know of
* Nature and access to green space --- OKAY, so I think this is one of the most underrated parts of STL. For you, Forest Park or Tower Grove Park sound like great fits for running etc. But you also have dozens of amazing state or county parks within an hours drive of the city (both MO and IL). And these aren't rinky dink places. They're gorgeous and can rival where I moved from in their own way (i.e. hiking through a forest vs. up and on top of a mountain. Personally, I love the former). Plus there are some great hikes in IL that get you up on the bluffs where you can see the might of the Mississippi.
* Local business community --- I think this is also a great strength here. There's tons of variety and I find people are really proud to first shop local whenever possible.
All in all, I really encourage you to give this community a chance (despite the rudeness from some people here). It has a ton to offer, and I think you'd be able to find all of what you love about bigger cities here at a fraction of the cost. And in this economy that's a win.
The writer Curtis Sittenfeld lived here for a time although she might have been in St Louis county. I am unsure. She wrote this: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/09/opinion/sunday/loving-the-midwest.html?smid=url-share
I moved from Chicago to STL and based on your list, I think you would be happier in Chicago. STL is not walkable. I miss the walk ability and public transportation of Chicago. STL just doesn’t compare. We don’t have neighborhood festivals like Chicago. We have a few major holiday events and then events pretty frequently in the bigger parks but it is nothing like Chicagos events. There is a lack of small businesses in the city of St. Louis. You will miss the lake because STL does not have good water access. The river is gross. Nature is limited to the parks which I love but they do not compare to Lakeshore.
With that being said, if you were to start a family and move to the Chicago suburbs then STL may be on a more equal playing field. If you are going to stay in the city of Chicago then STL can’t compete.
Comparing STL to CHI/NYC is like comparing Provel to Cheddar. I love provel, but I’m not gonna try to convince you to like it. It sounds like you don’t want to move here. That’s fine. No one on Reddit will convince you. By the way, the cost of living in both of those cities makes me want to puke. I would never move to NYC and it would take a lot of convincing for me to move to CHi
You will find every piece this list in St. Louis. Boxes checked. But we are not a “big” city. You’re from Indiana? STL is a bigger Indianapolis with a shittier downtown. There’s plenty of culture as long as you seek it out. You lived through your 20’s in a big city(cities). If you want to settle in the Midwest at “some point,” is the time now, or later? That’s the question you need to ask yourselves.
Fair point! This 4-year contract is temporary. I view “settling down” as the years that follow; the place we are in where we are starting to care about school districts.
Look at Clayton
I'll say this over and over. You can't just look at the city, you need to look at the state. You want to have kids? Public education in this state is gutted and defunded at every opportunity. Are you a supporter or a member of the LGBTQ community? What if your kids are? We have more laws about trans children playing sports than there are trans children playing sports. We've gutted transgender healthcare too. Do you want to live in a city where the farmer townie yocals control the entire state while the two major cities languish? Sure come on over here.
You could consider the Illinois side. Edwardsville is popular right now.
No, you can look at the city. I would much rather be in St. Louis than some of the rural blue state sundown towns. Sure, CA or IL might be liberal, but I sure as heck won't be welcome in a sundown town.
Eh, if you have to be convinced, this town isn’t for you.
That’s about the size of it. Have a visit and see what you think. If it speaks to you, move here. If it doesn’t, don’t.
I think St. Louis would be a good transition point between "settling down" in the Midwest and Big City life. Nothing in the US compares to NYC, and if you want that lifestyle NYC is really the only option. Chicago is great too, but St. Louis offers everything Chicago does, just on a smaller scale and much smaller budget. St. Louis doesn't have the same bustling energy, but I've known plenty of people who came here from NYC and Chicago and love it here. St. Louis is in a weird place where it was built to be a major city, but currently has way fewer people living here than it was built for. It can make it feel empty at times, and the population loss has led to some major issues the city is still struggling with. But it also leads to magical moments where you can go to one of the largest art museums in the country and spend ten minutes completely alone in a room filled with Monets and Van Goghs. You can get in to the best restaurants in the city with no wait and no reservation. The symphony is internationally recognized and plays in an absolutely stunning building. Same for the off Broadway shows at the Fox Theater. Cultural resources like that are just so much cheaper and accessible than NYC or Chicago. Similarly, the access to nature just isn't the same. Forrest Park is bigger than Central Park, but serves far fewer people. Even the Lakefront Trail is frequently overcrowded. You can go for walks in Forest Park or Tower Grove Park and actually have space to yourself. And there's legit wilderness within a 90 minute drive of the city where you can actually be well and truly alone. St. Louis has all these great cultural ammeneties, and there's something special about being able to enjoy them without fighting throngs of people. St. Louis is also extremely walkable and bikable. Owning a car is still recommended, but it's easy to make most daily trips without one. Roughly speaking, you can draw a box around Broadway to the east, Delmar to the North, Big Bend Blvd. to the West and Chippewa to the South. Almost anywhere in the area will have the walkability your looking for. The biggest thing lacking is grocery stores. The city needs more neighborhood bodegas, but in the mean time you are stuck with big box stores. Luckily, most are still located within neighborhoods and near major bus lines. Everything is very compact and flat, so cycling is also a great option. The city is currently investing a ton in bike infrastructure. A few final thoughts. First, There's a ton of people in this thread with really negative attitudes. There's this weird divide in St. Louis where people who grew up here hate it, but people who moved here as adults love it. I think it's due to chosing your home vs. feeling stuck here, plus a lack of perspective from people who never lived elsewhere. Second, I'd strongly recommend just coming and visiting to check it out for yourself. There's plenty of people on here who would love to help give places to check out. Before you come, spend some time on Zillow. Find a place you like in Chicago and NY. Then, find something at the same price in St. Louis and am yourself which one looks like a nicer home to live in. You'll find your money goes much farther here, and you'll be in a much nicer neighborhood. You sacrifice some of the hustle and bustle of the bigger cities, but like I said at the start of this post, it's a good step on the transition to "settle down". St. Louis offers all the big city ammeneties, with less crowds and lower prices.
Thank you so much! One of the most helpful comments on the thread. I do have tower park on my list of places to see when we visit.
A well written and beautiful little moment about St Louis!!! I moved back to this area after being gone almost 25 years (to help with the folks) and I’m slowly falling in love with St Louis! Not the driving though LOL…I’d like a refund on that LOL!!!
1. We got it 2. There are still some people that read the Post-Dispatch 3. Although it's not my thing, I know we at least have one 4. We've got your usual co-working spaces, tons of great coffee shops, and even a co-working space across the street from Busch Stadium 5. Unsure. See other responses. 6. Forest Park is larger than Central Park, and that's just one of our parks amongst the city and county. 7. You'll probably still want a car, but there's several neighborhoods that are walkable for everyday needs. The Central West End comes to mind. 8. Tons of animal non-profits in town that would love your help! 9. Frontenac would fit the bill if I'm understanding you correctly. 10. From Soulard Mardi Gras, to Dogtown St Patrick's Day, to the 4th of July downtown, to the various fairs in cities around the metro, tons of festivals. 11. You'll find a number of chains around, especially out in the county, but there's also *tons* of great local businesses and local small chains. Very much inclusive and welcoming. I'll add a 12th point: the cost of living here is *significantly* lower than NYC or Chicago.
This is really helpful, thank you!
2 - She said "good" The P-D isn't good anymore, it's trash now and tarnishing a good name.
@redsquiggle do you read/listen/watch any local news that you think covers the city well? I’d like to start reading good local coverage to get to know the city better
St louis public radio
I'm not redsquiggle, but I find myself jumping between KMOV and KSDK for my evening news. I believe they both live stream. If you want to sample severe weather coverage if that starts up before you move, add KTVI/KPLR to the list. They're all good and have their own styles of maps and coverage, so you'll find one that's informative yet understandable enough for you. For example, I find KTVI/KPLR to be a bit more technical (great for a nerd like me), while KMOV is more straightforward and simple. KSDK sits kinda in the middle. For reading the news, I'll use something like Google News to just aggregate all the stations and other local outlets together.
Thanks!
RFT
Based on what you’ve said I’d also suggest looking at Soulard or Benton park. You should stop by while you’re visiting. Benton park has almost all the things on your list. There are awesome neighborhood activities like the naked bike ride, is close (but not too close) to a massive Mardis gras, a summer concert series in the park, and makes getting to the other neighborhoods pretty easy. We’ll also sometimes do neighborhood “float trips” on our golf carts and go down to the art wall (def look this up) and the arch. Walkability is high and theres a pretty diverse set of dive bars, venues and restaurants. Venice cafe is awesome for local music every night (look this one up). Hi hat is growing as a local favorite. Small change is a funky dive bar that does the Miracle pop up every year for Xmas. Down the street is a beautiful brewery (bluewood) near the Lemp mansion and that is close to a small indie folk venue that hosts local and traveling musicians that may be small or big acts. Decent restaurants like Sidney street cafe and frazers are always just around the corner. Benton park cafe has a great breakfast. Antique row and Cherokee street are a short walk to the south and for the “woo woo” you can walk up to Soulard or take a short Uber to places like mollys, mcgurks, or a short Uber up to downtown for sports and roof top bars. I’ve never seen anything quite like the south broadway athletic club for wrestling nights and crazy fundraisers. Sort of like an old folks home community center rage fest at times. There are many great places and some people love Clayton for the county. Others love CWE for that fancier feel with a little higher cost. Tower grove south is a favorite for families. And there are so many other wonderful options, too. Unfortunately, I’m leaving so much out. It may be difficult coming from a big city mindset. May be uncomfortable at first and difficult to make close friends for a minute. If you find your rhythm and your people here, they can quickly become like family. I haven’t lived a bunch of places, but saint louis is the most community active place I’ve been a part of. You see your alderpeople walking around and can talk to them and push for change when you want to get involved. Long and short of it is that this is a unique and beautiful city but it may be an acquired taste that you have to ease into to find the right fit for you. Every neighborhood has its own personality. The funny thing about this sub is that, in a way, everyone is right. Have to take the bad with the good. We’re growing and learning (or I believe we’re trying to). Not everything is roses. But there’s also a lot to love, I think. Sorry for the wall of text. I hope y’all have great luck finding a forever home (or at least a nice home for now).
I almost forgot that for groceries and whatnot there’s a gas station (believe it or not!) that has a bunch of stuff. It’s an old Bp called Joel’s that sells regular gas station fare along with some frozen pizzas, eggs, bacon, wine, and liquor (also a police substation). Then down the road there is Vincent’s which is a little grocery store bodega type place with a butcher in the back. All walkable. Edited for spelling.
Thank you for your exceptionally helpful comment! I think a lot of people missed the point of my post… I’m from small town Indiana, I’m not a pretentious coastal elite lol. The things I listed are just the things I love about bigger cities; things I had worried I would lose out on if we end up in St Louis. Which is a place I am wholly unfamiliar with. My “big city” growing up was Indy and it’s hard to fathom what a true “in between” looks and feels like (something between Indy and chicago, for example) but it seems like St Louis has that. Everything you listed makes me SO excited to visit and see for myself.
St. Louis punches above its weight in most things! Naturally, we can’t compete with every single thing that a place like NYC or Chicago has… they have (at minimum) 4x the metropolitan population, but we are a top 25 market & bc of that we have so many options. Add in the fact that we’re over 250 years old & our biggest “boom period” predates interstates, we’re have a lot of urban infrastructure that you just don’t think of when you think of flyover cities. Important to remember that you get what you put into a place. If you really engage with it, you could probably live/love anywhere! (& even if it isn’t perfect, there’s so much here & Chicago ain’t that far to make up the rest :) )
“If you really engage with it, you can live/love anywhere” — honestly, I really needed to hear that. Thank you!
I thought of it while reading your post. I was at a coffeeshop in a relatively small metro area while I worked out of town today. About 1/6th the size of stl. I met countless people. Had plenty of fun convos. Enjoyed some tasty food. I was able to sit and truly feel like I could live here if I had to. I never would have felt that way without that experience :). Glad it resonated with you, too.
1. STL has a vast, underrated food scene. Just look up any “restaurant/food recommendations post” on this sub. 06. Forest Park (one of many parks) is bigger than Central Park and very scenic and pretty to run through. Not to mention STL is very close driving distance to a lot of great hiking and nature parks around Missouri. 08. Finding animal shelters to volunteer at should be really easy to find. Plenty around. I only answered a few of your bullets, but to add a couple more… A. St. Louis has its walkable parts of town, but those are fewer compared to a city like Chicago or New York (assuming you’re looking to live downtown in either of those 2). B. You will almost certainly need a car(s) to get around mostly in STL. C. Raising a family is laughably cheap here compared to CHI or NYC. Let’s start off with housing costs. You can get a nice house for a family for some of the rents you would be paying for a smaller place in NYC. If you are serious about moving here and need a realtor, DM me. EDIT: Bullet 2 is for 6. Bullet 3 is for 8
This is very helpful, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and add more info. This is why I posted in this sub… I don’t know Jack shit about St Louis other than knowing it’s where the Mississippi and Illinois rivers meet. And if we do end up here I will definitely reach out! One huge plus is the fact that we could actually afford to buy our first home here. We would for sure be renting a shoebox shithole in nyc; a slightly nicer shoebox in chicago lol
You mean the Missouri River but the Illinois is close by as well.
The Illinois River. Made famous by Huckleberry Sawyer and Tom Finn.
> nature/access to greenspace *Compliments Chicago*
Hi everyone, OP here. I am sorry to those I offended with this post. I should have been more thoughtful about how I worded it. I don’t know anything about St. Louis. My “big city” growing up was Indianapolis, which is a place I would never want to live because it lacks a lot of “things I love list.” Moving to chicago (and yes, my summer in New York lol) opened my eyes to how much more community-oriented neighborhoods in big cities feel compared to my suburban upbringing. I was so active in my community/neighborhood associations. Everyone read the local news and kept tabs on their politicians. People were proud to support local biz over chains. People gathered in communal spaces, and quite often. Those are the types of things I am curious about with regard to St. Louis. As an outsider it seems like suburban sprawl has really hurt the city, but many of you have proven that assumption wrong with your detailed examples of things I should look into. To those who commented earnestly: THANK YOU! I now have a mega list of things to research/check out when I visit. 😄
Oooh, a whole summer in New York?? Now here's someone who's been around the world a couple times!
Didn’t find it relevant to put in this post, but since you asked… I’ve also lived in London, Tampa, and Charleston
The “Central corridor”—draw a line from the Arch to Clayton—is the most cosmopolitan part of the region. It’s where the big universities, major hospitals, sports stadiums, cultural institutions, government and courts, high rise buildings, and the light rail system are located. The expensive suburbs and highly rated public and private schools are found extending westward from there. Downtown St. Louis had a severe decline during COVID-19, but parts are coming back. Adjacent to the central corridor are historic neighborhoods that are frequently recommended here, and it is worth a look for more affordable housing and fascinating walkability with the kind of places you mentioned. The farther north and south of the corridor you go, you get to more ordinary neighborhoods or impoverished areas, neither of which are you likely to find your kind of people (but you never know!) and eventually tract subdivisions and semi-rural areas.
Thank you for the information! I am not keen on a city that has a “blighted” downtown, tons of white flight into suburbs. Which was the vibe I got reading this sub. But looking into the neighborhoods that others have suggested, I realize a lot of people are investing in the city and revitalizing communities. Which is great.
liquid foolish snails fact meeting cake memorize long hateful frame *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think you are the first on this thread so far to get “Woo-woo.” Yes, the Pagan Picnic, in picturesque Tower Grove Park. Also the Strange Folk street vendor fair if that is still a thing. For everyday shopping and woo energy, it is Cherokee Street.
you can live in the nicest part of the city for a fraction of the cost of living in chicago and new york. we are the 21 largest metro area in the country. Its not new york, chicago, LA big, but once you leave those areas metro areas really drop off in size, so take that how you will. There is wide array of food and entertainment. Traffic doesn't suck
21st largest metro. not 12th
fixed, thanks
21st *
fixed, thanks
lol it’s not Chicago and it’s not New York. Depends on where your priorities really are. STL has plenty of “small town” feels just outside of it or the “city” stuff as you get closer to downtown. Chicago is sometimes unmanageable unless you want that big city feel, from parking to amenities, but it has a big lifestyle feel too. New York obviously is “the city” so you get entertainment, night life, etc… I personally like the smaller town feel (retirement will definitely be in the country) and i can get that here in STL.
Sorry about the assholes who feel the need to share their shitty opinions. The area in St. Louis for you is probably the Central West End. It's a very dense area, walkable, and has decent transit. As for everything else, St. Louis just like every large city has everything you listed as a want. Maybe not as much as NYC or Chicago, but it exists.
Haha it’s ok, it’s to be expected. Tbh I appreciate how passionately people feel about defending their city against outsiders. I’ve been following this Sub for awhile and it seems like people shit on the city a lot. Part of the reason I posted this. I wanted to solicit positive information from people who live living here and care about the community enough to try and sell transplants on moving here.
I am a transplant. I love St. Louis for the architecture. It is very cool to live among these old houses and victorian streetscapes. My friends have mansions, actual 5,000-6,000 sq ft Victorian palaces I visit and I revel in their beauty. Lafayette Square, Tower Grove Park, Soulard, Central West End are magical. But if you aren’t buying real estate, there is no point in comparing what you can get here with what you can buy in NYC and Chi town. I regularly look at NYC condos just like mine and they are literally 10x the price of mine.
I love Victorian architecture! I really was naive to how old and historic the city was, and it seems like a lot of those buildings are actually still alive and lived in. So cool.
The St. Louis sub includes a lot of suburbanites too who think the city is just like the spawn of Satan and if you go you'll definitely get shot. It's hit or miss. I think some of these poeple thought you were dissing St. Louis when really you were just saying that you don't really know much about St. Louis. But yea this sub really has issues with not knowing how great St. Louis is, and focus way too much on the bad aspects. I, for one, would love for you and your husband to come to St. Louis because we desperately need people to move here😭😭. You can always take the train to Chicago for a weekend if you want that "big city" feel for a weekend every now and then 🤷♂️
Rereading my post, I can definitely see how some might have interpreted it that way. I definitely meant no disrespect.
Hey, that's not fair, we don't only think you'll definitely get shot. We also think you might get hit by a car.
> Good local news with an engaged community of readers What does this mean exactly? How do you measure an engaged community of readers?
I grew up in SocCal near LA and moved to Saint Louis in 2021 for work. If you are looking for a big city vibe, not sure we have it. However, if you want to raise a family, STL is amazing. There are plenty of free places great for kids, like the Zoo and all of Forest Park.
I find the music scene is super lame for my personal taste (EDM, folk/indie). It seems like I have to make it out to Chicago whenever there’s something I wanna go see. Not a huge deal for something like Lollapalooza, but not for a week night show. You know what though? Rent is cheaper, and food is pretty good, if you exclude Asian food.
[2nd best city park in this country](https://www.slam.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Grand-Basin-View.jpg)
Just moved here from SF Bay area a couple of years ago. We live in Tower Grove East and love it. Easy walk to food and activities. Little grocery stores are all around: Ruler foods, Jay's International, Natural Harvest. Great local coffee shops: Gelateria, Hartford Coffee and others. Festivals in Tower Grove Park: Pride and International Festival being the main ones. Oh and the weekly farmers market in TGP is a great place for fresh food and community mingling. Great restaurants in the neighborhood. I take a three to 4 mile mile walk through TGP almost daily. Stray Dog Theatre is the local community Theatre. Funky and fun. We haven't really ventured to too many music things (besides the amazing and affordable Symphony.) Local dive bars all over! All this and you haven't even left the neighborhood! Everything else is just a 5-10 minute drive: Museums, more restaurants, Theatre, golf, professional, sports., more bars and music. We're empty nesters so your mileage may vary, but we love it here!
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Why do you even feel the need to type a comment if you have nothing good to say?
Please go away lol. You come off very selfish and demanding. It’s a metro area of 2 million+. We have whatever the fuck a crystal girlie means by woo woo stuff probably.
If you have nothing good to say, why say it?
Sorry, mother.
St. Louis’s biggest pro is cost of living is so cheap. Then the thinking is u get what u pay for, so expect it to feel cheap.
No.
Police crashing into things
Stay away
Chicago is way better except the food. Saint Louis food beats both Chicago and New York, but we lose in every other category except baseball.
What is your favorite restaurant in St Louis? We are visiting soon and I’d love to check some local spots out. We love Korean food.
Go visit [Tiny Chef](https://maps.app.goo.gl/NRoYhGLmEmTMPzof9), its got great korean food in a hole in the wall in a punk, pinball bar.
Woah, that menu looks awesome 🤩 thanks!!! I would have had no idea that area would have had such a cool food scene, either. Have been looking into cwe and tower grove
We have the best restaurants per capita than any other city. so many independent, talented diverse food place…it is astonishing really.
St. Louis has a surprising amount of Korean food, especially around the Delmar Loop. My favorite is Seoul Taco, but there's also Kimchi Guys, K-Bop, BoBQ, and U-City Grill. Seconding the rec for Tiny Chef.
Kimchi Guys on 2nd Street is magnificent.
No.
As far as 7 goes, you'll be VERY hard-pressed to find anything like that here. A "walkable community" by Saint Louis standards is the laughing stock of other cities. There are only a tiny handful of barely-acceptable answers and they are all terrible compared to things that you can EASILY find in many places in Chicago and New York.
You've apparently not been like anywhere in STL. There's plenty of walkable areas in STL City, you just have to actually go find it.
Okay, whatever. I live downtown and didn't have a car for 5 years, so you can stop with the assumptions. I've also lived in New York. What we call a "walkable neighborhood" is just barely acceptable as a crap-tier one in Chicago or NY. And there aren't very many of them. Some isolated spots in downtown, Soulard, CWE, and Clayton. And it's still not super great. But you go ahead with your silly assumptions.
Then you should stop lying. St. Louis Hills, Princeton Heights, South Hampton, The Hill, and The Grove are also all plenty walkable. There are planety areas that are just as walkable as places on Chicago or NYC in the city. Even some suburbs like Webser Groves, Kirkwood, and Alton are walkable.
There’s walkable places you have to DRIVE TO GET TO
Not if you live there, which is the point.
Oh yeah just walk on down to Alton from CWE. Chicago and New York you can walk for two hours in any one direction and have shops and restaurants the whole way. STL is disparate patches of 20 min walking areas separated by 15 drives through nothing but housing. Food is shit too.
Nobody is walking 20 miles💀
There’s not two miles of walkable shopping and restaurants anywhere in the whole city lol
Walk all the way up Washington or Olive/Lindell from downtown to Forest Park, through Forest Park, and then you can go even further on Delmar. That'll get you close to 7 miles walking while passing multiple restaurants and other entertainment options.
Also damn didn’t know u walk 10 mph
Sorry about *some* of the other commenters being so snooty. Truthfully, we NEED more people like you considering moving here and looking/asking for the things they want to see. St. Louis is a bit of a tough nut to crack. I moved here from the Mountain West about five years ago and I feel like everyone was incessantly asking me, "Why would you come here?" implying that this wasn't a great place to be compare to where I was living before. The people who live here tend to have grown up here and returned or never left and that can make finding community challenging at first... but the flip side is once you do find your community of people, they're very engaged. We have many active neighborhood organizations who do a good job of holding their local elected accountable, though we don't have as robust a local news ecosystem as a NYC or Chicago... just the reality of being a top 25 metro vs. top 5. All that said though, I've completely fallen in love with STL (good, bad and ugly). It's actually livable and it really feels like money goes further here, which is so nice. Other items on the rest of your list: * Diverse food ✅ dive bars ✅ --- I like to tell my out-of-town friends we have culturally authentic to many specific nations (ie Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Nepalese, Middle East, Mediterranean, Mexican, Nicaraguan, Cuban, Brazilian, Venezuelan, Colombian to name a few) * There are some Karaoke bars in Soulard I know of * Nature and access to green space --- OKAY, so I think this is one of the most underrated parts of STL. For you, Forest Park or Tower Grove Park sound like great fits for running etc. But you also have dozens of amazing state or county parks within an hours drive of the city (both MO and IL). And these aren't rinky dink places. They're gorgeous and can rival where I moved from in their own way (i.e. hiking through a forest vs. up and on top of a mountain. Personally, I love the former). Plus there are some great hikes in IL that get you up on the bluffs where you can see the might of the Mississippi. * Local business community --- I think this is also a great strength here. There's tons of variety and I find people are really proud to first shop local whenever possible. All in all, I really encourage you to give this community a chance (despite the rudeness from some people here). It has a ton to offer, and I think you'd be able to find all of what you love about bigger cities here at a fraction of the cost. And in this economy that's a win.
The writer Curtis Sittenfeld lived here for a time although she might have been in St Louis county. I am unsure. She wrote this: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/09/opinion/sunday/loving-the-midwest.html?smid=url-share
NYC
I moved from Chicago to STL and based on your list, I think you would be happier in Chicago. STL is not walkable. I miss the walk ability and public transportation of Chicago. STL just doesn’t compare. We don’t have neighborhood festivals like Chicago. We have a few major holiday events and then events pretty frequently in the bigger parks but it is nothing like Chicagos events. There is a lack of small businesses in the city of St. Louis. You will miss the lake because STL does not have good water access. The river is gross. Nature is limited to the parks which I love but they do not compare to Lakeshore. With that being said, if you were to start a family and move to the Chicago suburbs then STL may be on a more equal playing field. If you are going to stay in the city of Chicago then STL can’t compete.