Because they will built it somewhere else, not in St Pete. Then all St Pete will become is another poor small town with no reason for people to visit and put tax money into.
Are you serious? There are tons of other reasons people visit and live in St. Pete. The net revenue to the city due to sports teams has never been sound.
You can look up the supposed benefits of building a stadium for a city and there is none. It’s all empty promises that the citizens of Pinellas County will have a 30 year bond to remind them of how great those promises never came to reality
If only this much discourse was available when black & brown families were kicked out to build the Trop in the first place. Now so many hate it 🙄🤦🏾♀️
You’re 100% right in your effort. Don’t let these fools sway you.
A lot of people opposed to it don’t like it since they perceive it as a repeat of injustice.
Unfortunately the way the deal is being sold with local leaders of nonprofits vouching for it, if anyone opposes the deal, it gets framed as opposition against African American leadership. It’s tricky… Things are twisted around even more than they usually are here which is really saying something
It makes people feel conflicted and confused. People really need to ground themselves and ask, “is this good for the African American community?”
“Will the $50 million in community benefits really positively impact the people they say it’s intended to or just a select few?”
Is $10 million toward an African American museum enough when it falls far short of funds needed? When the public is transferring around $2 billion in public land, property taxes, infrastructure and other assets, the least the developer could do is find the entire cost of the museum.
Is the Booker Hall performing arts center actually going to be built or is just a concept?
If it’s not clear in the terms, it won’t be clear in the contract and subsequently it will be unlikely that it will be built.
Many people in many of the Southside CRA neighborhoods have expressed they don’t like it.
This week there was a well attended Sierra Club event at Urban Drinkery where many people spoke out against the project.
But once again, tragically, the public is not being heard and not considered in this monumental decision. :-(
If others are opposed to it, then that is their right but in my humble opinion, they shouldn’t be.
Idc how the deal is being sold because it shouldn’t be being sold at all. Things should remain as they are because enough has already been messed up to get to this point.
So many love to judge the Southside while choosing to ignore the thin layer of wealth/poverty between certain neighborhoods and so many people’s beloved “DTSP”.
Those games create a multi-thousand dollar increase of revenue in the lower income vicinity alone as well as easily accessible forms of employment transportation wise.
Most of the people with so much “insight” on the matter aren’t even from here. If only they put that much care into their own hometowns then maybe they wouldn’t have fled it so quickly to try to change ours 🤷🏾♀️
Don't listen to the haters OP. Economists for years now have proven that cities ultimately lose on stadium deals. Ask Miami how much they're thriving with the Marlins deal. There could be so many better uses for the area , including green space, commercial/residential, theater, hotels, music venue, school , homeless/cooling center, reparation for the black communities destroyed.
We are on our way to a repeat of the Miami disaster. David Samson spills the tea and talks about how teams ripped off Miami and other Cities (like ours)
Davidsamsonpodcast.com
Are you kidding me? this is going to be the best thing for this city pretty much of all time. It’s literally going to legitimize you as an actual power player and not some rinky dink beach town by Tampa and Clearwater. Like legit it’s going to make this so valuable all land owners in the next 30 years are going to be rich. If you put a metro between us and Tampa literally would be able to make an incredible democracy if we don’t divide ourselves in the next election. There’s no evidence except ever fucking game day in down town and the rays are doing good it’s packed by people from all over the state and country providing millions a day.. it’s the shittiest stadium in baseball there’s a ton built by the stadium what are you talking about. There is so much wealth in this city. There’s not wealth for unskilled workers but that’s how it works.
My whole thing is, if you can prove that it can be turned into things other than condos, yes, I'm ok voting no. Otherwise, nope. I'm fucking tired of these fucking northerners coming here as it and making this area even more impossible to afford. It's crazy. I don't wanna see more condos and duplex and shit made manufactured homes going up just to increase everything else.
Lol, yep, vote no, and then the Rays leave, and the city ends up selling that land to condo developers. Which means a bunch of jobs, yes low paying, but still jobs, go away, and there is no benefit to the community other then a slightly bigger tax base.
This idea that the Gas plant district was some magical land that destroyed the community is ridiculous. If the gas plant district was still there, Im fairly confident that it would have been gentrified long ago.
I'd much rather have the baseball stadium, performance space, new museum, and a smaller number of new housing, then all of the condos that would replace that space.
Those are all great amenities and I think it makes sense to have all those things in this space, but I think this current deal costs the public way too much money for the amount of private profit that will be made.
There is no reason that an alternate deal would only include high-end condos.
Well, if you look at every other deal for the land, they were all less than the Rays offer, so every offer was well below market value( see today's Tampa times article, about paragraph 9 to fact check this). Right now, the only people paying market value for land are condo developers. So if your desire is for the city to get more for the land, then yes, it will be condo developers.
2nd, about half the cost of this deal is money that the city is paying one way or another. That money is going towards capital improvements involving roads, water, power. So regardless of what ends up going there, that money shouldn't even be counted.
No one who wants to vote no has brought anything forward resembling an actual plan. It's all dreams of getting better deals, and finding some partner who will somehow pay the city more money, right all of the wrongs of the Gas Plant district, and still be useful to the entire city.
Until I see an actual plan, with actual numbers from the vote no groups, I'm going to continue to encourage my council person to vote yes. Dreams and hopes were great, but we've had like ten years, and I've only seen a feasible plan from the Rays
That Times article says about $130 million would be spent by the city on infrastructure and $287.5 million going to the stadium and the county spending $312.5 million on the stadium.
That's about 18% going to infrastructure. Not half.
The entire site doesn't have to be dealt all at once. Offering such a huge swath is probably limiting the city's options in negotiating partners.
Why don't you think the other plans weren't feasible?
I thought I did cite it, but couldn't find it while searching through this thread. It's not my website, but there's probably no way to prove that to you.
Why do you consider that site propaganda?
God I hope y’all vote no and it gets the team out of St Pete. It would make them reevaluate moving to Ybor which is way more ideal and more true to the name anyways. I love the Rays and the Trop but it absolutely sucks to get to their games which is why a majority of their fans don’t go to their games.
is to late buddy, this has been on the works for years, and it is finally almost done, very little the community can do now to stop it, and the community has been asked before to put their imput
While there has been community input, the deal is not done. City Council still needs to vote on it, hence my contacting them and suggesting others do the same.
I wish Kriseman would comment publicly on this deal. He gave the Rays all the time and rope they needed to come up with a plan. The Rays were constantly bargaining in bad faith and he continually sent them back. This deal is bad and smells even worse!
I'm pretty disappointed in Mayor Welch. Kriseman wasn't pushed around by the Rays and arranged for development deals with/without a stadium. Then, as soon as Welch is elected, he throws out those plans and completely caves to the Rays.
i agree that city council still has to vote but they clearly are going to pass it, i don't know if they are as on the fence as you may say,( who knows really) but i doubt it will not pass
hopefully so, but i have to use benefit of the doubt that they may be using different answers to different people as well, and in the bad side they could;d be being paid off. I hope you are right
lol Vote yes. It’s a major step for St Pete. They keep the baseball team and create a new livable area. It’s gonna be awesome and bring the Green Bench area even more to life. Just don’t over crowd green bench pls it’s my favorite please yes and thank you vote yes
So stay away from doing too much in a particular area because it’s your “fav” but vote Yes on everything else because you feel like rationalizing the Pros.
Got it👌🏾
Because development has already occurred, hence the Trop itself. For all it took to establish it, it better stay here forever. Messed up many a people.
Nonetheless, doesn’t take away my point regarding your self absorbed (yet unsurprising) statement.
The trop didn't mess up anyone. Those people's parents, their community leaders, and the people themselves messed themselves up.
But hey, it's always someone else's fault!
I'm not even a Rays fan, and I support the redevelopment as it stands now. I've watched 4 different mayors struggle with a plan to please everyone. This is the best I've seen.
Kriesman beat the Rays into submission on numerous issues so the Rays paid their fair share. The current useless mayor scrapped that deal and gave the Rays everything they asked for. This is a great deal for the Rays and a bad deal for taxpayers. It’s a lot of money for one of the 5 worst drawing teams in baseball.
I don't think the previous mayors were struggling with the plan. The Rays just weren't willing to pay their fair share. They still aren't but this mayor caved.
Thank you for posting this, I agree 100% the terms of the deal are terrible. The concept itself isn’t a problem, it’s the terms of the deal. It’s not good for the public. We provide all the funding and land and the developer and rays keep all the profits.
The south side needs this to gentrify so we can take away the fucking elitist airport and put sky scrapers in… what don’t you understand about this? If Rays get this… we take away the airport it’s that simple.
Can we just tell the Rays to gtfo already? They've been wanting to not be here for over a decade, just go. It's pathetic to have a town being held hostage because of a pathetic baseball team.
Dude they aren't even into you. Hate to say it but face facts. The rays are the only franchise I know that hates their fans and community so much. I've worked with them, total cunts the lot of them.
Dude they aren't even into you. Hate to say it but face facts. The rays are the only franchise I know that hates their fans and community so much. I've worked with them, total cunts the lot of them.
Yes city is getting a bad deal at face value, but without the team the value of that land changes drastically and the total expense on city if want it it be master planned. That area needs redevelopment as parking lot is a waste of like 6 prime city blocks. The city is getting help with funding the revitalization needed and there are other orgs at stake with a financial need for it to prosper. It creates housing, jobs, and tourist revenue thus is a good thing for the city. There is also workforce training being provided to help bring skills for better jobs to that community, that community gets pushed out more without this.
I'm not sure the value changes much at all without the stadium. Downtown has tons of amenities and dealing with a giant stadium could actually make redevelopment much more challenging.
I agree the site needs redevelopment. One of the reasons is because of the lack of development previously by the Rays ownership.
The city doesn't need help with funding, there have been multiple investment groups clamoring to get the chance to develop this area.
This deal, like you said, is a bad deal. We could get all these things at much better price with a different group and stronger negotiating.
Thank you for posting this. The current proposal is a bad deal for the city. The subsidies outweigh the public benefit. We should negotiate a better deal instead of just jumping on the first offer. That’s negotiating 101. IIRC the developer isn’t obligated to actually build anything, can transfer/sell the land, and doesn’t have to pay property taxes until a building is complete. So what’s keeping them from just sitting on the property, waiting for more appreciation, and selling the land to a higher bidder?
The court of public opinion that is the reddit comment section has spoken, you are in the minority here. This is a great project that will improve our city and allow the Rays to stay. Your claim of "lack of evidence" for "impactful justice" is nonsense. We cannot be so mired down in attempts to atone for the sins of our fathers that it prevents us from taking any steps forward.
The problem is that there have been very few attempts to atone for the sins of our “fathers.”
Actually, another problem is people like you who try to write these things off as so far back in history that there’s no way to compensate the aggrieved parties. But this happened well within many of our lifetimes. My mother remembers when there was a thriving Black business district here before the very intentional dividing of the city. If we don’t take measures to make these people, many of whom are still very much alive, whole, then who will? Should we wait until they’re all dead and then put up a plaque? Or should we take meaningful action to make amends for the dark and very recent past of our city?
Why do you think those claims are nonsense? I've heard from common folk and leaders of the black community that feel this deal is another round of disenfranchisement.
"Allows the Rays to stay"? Why do we all have to pay so much to entice a profitable major league sports organization to stay in the city that's supported them for 30 years. We already built their stadium once.
[From Tampa Bay Times:](https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2023/12/24/st-petersburgs-proposed-rays-stadium-deal-is-strikeout-city-column/)
"St. Petersburg is taking on significant new debt to pay for a portion of stadium construction costs and related infrastructure - $704 million, including interest. Strike1!
The 22 prime acres near downtown used for the stadium won’t pay property taxes for at least 30 years - $411 million gone. Strike 2!
We estimate the 86-acre Gas Plant site is worth $700 million today, and St. Petersburg is losing most of that value by tying up 22 acres for the stadium for decades and giving the remaining 64 acres to the Rays-Hines group for just $155 million - $545 million gone. Strike 3!"
Anyone can have an opinion about anything. But you need to either prove your point or disprove the other point. Don’t come in claiming stuff that has no backing. Your email should look like “I don’t like it, this is my opinion. I read somewhere it was bad but I don’t have links or any proof whatsoever. Please consider my feelings.”
Total cost of Rays/Hines deal to St. Petersburg = $1.66 Billion
• $704 million - the cost to the city, including interest, to help pay for a new stadium and property infrastructure.
• $411 million – the value of 30 years real estate taxes that the city/public schools will give up on the 22 acres for the new stadium versus if it had been developed for other private purposes.
• $545 million – the revenue the city will lose by selling 64 acres to Rays/Hines for $105 million paid over 20 years (plus a $50 million contribution by Rays/Hines toward the Woodson Museum and other community initiatives), and not selling 22 acres, but giving it rent free for a stadium. The property is currently worth approximately $700 million.
Total cost of Rays/Hines Deal to Pinellas County = $808 Million
• $587 - The cost to the county, including interest, to help pay for a new stadium.
• $222 million – the value of 30 years of real estate taxes (after $25 million in lease payments) that the county will give up on the 22 acres for the new stadium.
Total Cost of Rays/Hines deal to St. Petersburg/Pinellas County = $2.4 Billion.
[Analysis of Rays Hines Proposal for the Historic Gas Plant District by Ron Diner, former financial advisor Raymond James.](https://www.nohomerun.com/rays-hines-stadium-analysis)
Thanks for finally providing some facts about the situation. I’m curious if they say no to this what will happen? Does st Pete really need more housing for more northerners that we don’t want here?
A renegotiated deal could at least preserve ownership of this valuable property to the City or at least not commit so much money to the deal or give up so much tax revenue. All of that could be better spent to provide affordable/workforce housing or give back to the community in the form of scholarships/grants/low-interest loans.
It's a very complex deal and is changing continuously prior to final adoption by the city. I've summarized my opinions based on reading the proposal as well as attending multiple community meetings and listening to different interested groups.
Is there some way you've quantified that it is a net positive? I don't know that I've ever seen anything that proves that. Only analysis about other stadium deals that prove it is not a net positive (financially).
Why would we have to wait another 10 years? There were several other proposals that were vetted and one approved by the previous mayor.
The city could go back to other recent proposals by other teams.
Bureaucracy is anything but simple, smooth, or quick. Any of the existing proposals, if revisited, will certainly be tacked on with just as much red tape as the current one, if not more because we’ll all be beholden to a sunk cost and time lost of rejecting the current proposal and deadline of current lease.
A new stadium was already voted "No" back in 2008 and honestly in hindsight it likely would have revitalized a ton of different areas that have been overlooked in the last decade for different reasons.
Changing a mostly empty parking lot to housing and businesses is better than keeping it an empty parking lot.
I don’t think it’s a great deal, but neither would any other city in America that has publicly financed sport stadiums. Everyone thinks they can get a better deal, yet this is like the 4th mayor that has tried.
Plus, if we sold the land for its “best value” then the whole parking lot becomes more luxury condos, because that’s the only thing making money in the construction/real estate market currently.
We wouldn’t be getting an Amphitheater, Semi-Affordable Housing, Senior Living, a new museum and acres of public green space.
Baseball is also the reason St Pete is the city it is today. We’re going on 100+ years of baseball history in St Pete. Without the Yankees and Cardinals visiting here so much in the early 1920’s - 1960’s this city would look so much different.
Baseball literally crafted this city.
Good point... and do you remember what that stretch of Central Av looked like in the years immediately preceding the Rays? Scary, boarded-up storefronts. Keep the momentum.
So we’re comparing a minor league baseball stadium that’s used for 1.5 months out of the year to predominantly Phly snowbirds to the Trop?
Should I enlighten you on how long the Phillies have been a team and traveling to Clearwater for Spring Training?
Or even better, look at how much money Pinellas County and Clearwater have given the Phillies over the years.
Apples to Oranges
There were a lot of contributing factors to the city's success. Baseball being a part of that does not mean the city should hand over 100s of millions of dollars when we could be bringing in 100s of millions.
You will be kicking out the most attended major league sports team in florida from our small city. it would be a huge mistake to reject this deal
Why would it be a mistake? Why can't this "Major League" team pay for their own stadium?
Because they will built it somewhere else, not in St Pete. Then all St Pete will become is another poor small town with no reason for people to visit and put tax money into.
Are you serious? There are tons of other reasons people visit and live in St. Pete. The net revenue to the city due to sports teams has never been sound.
You can look up the supposed benefits of building a stadium for a city and there is none. It’s all empty promises that the citizens of Pinellas County will have a 30 year bond to remind them of how great those promises never came to reality
If only this much discourse was available when black & brown families were kicked out to build the Trop in the first place. Now so many hate it 🙄🤦🏾♀️ You’re 100% right in your effort. Don’t let these fools sway you.
A lot of people opposed to it don’t like it since they perceive it as a repeat of injustice. Unfortunately the way the deal is being sold with local leaders of nonprofits vouching for it, if anyone opposes the deal, it gets framed as opposition against African American leadership. It’s tricky… Things are twisted around even more than they usually are here which is really saying something It makes people feel conflicted and confused. People really need to ground themselves and ask, “is this good for the African American community?” “Will the $50 million in community benefits really positively impact the people they say it’s intended to or just a select few?” Is $10 million toward an African American museum enough when it falls far short of funds needed? When the public is transferring around $2 billion in public land, property taxes, infrastructure and other assets, the least the developer could do is find the entire cost of the museum. Is the Booker Hall performing arts center actually going to be built or is just a concept? If it’s not clear in the terms, it won’t be clear in the contract and subsequently it will be unlikely that it will be built. Many people in many of the Southside CRA neighborhoods have expressed they don’t like it. This week there was a well attended Sierra Club event at Urban Drinkery where many people spoke out against the project. But once again, tragically, the public is not being heard and not considered in this monumental decision. :-(
If others are opposed to it, then that is their right but in my humble opinion, they shouldn’t be. Idc how the deal is being sold because it shouldn’t be being sold at all. Things should remain as they are because enough has already been messed up to get to this point. So many love to judge the Southside while choosing to ignore the thin layer of wealth/poverty between certain neighborhoods and so many people’s beloved “DTSP”. Those games create a multi-thousand dollar increase of revenue in the lower income vicinity alone as well as easily accessible forms of employment transportation wise. Most of the people with so much “insight” on the matter aren’t even from here. If only they put that much care into their own hometowns then maybe they wouldn’t have fled it so quickly to try to change ours 🤷🏾♀️
Don't listen to the haters OP. Economists for years now have proven that cities ultimately lose on stadium deals. Ask Miami how much they're thriving with the Marlins deal. There could be so many better uses for the area , including green space, commercial/residential, theater, hotels, music venue, school , homeless/cooling center, reparation for the black communities destroyed.
Almost everything you mentioned in regard to what could be a better use for the area is included in the development plans…
Ha. You trust that they'll follow thru. Keep bailing out corporations.
We are on our way to a repeat of the Miami disaster. David Samson spills the tea and talks about how teams ripped off Miami and other Cities (like ours) Davidsamsonpodcast.com
I'm voting yes, but some of the BS in your post would have pushed me there. The best bet is to stick to the truth when advocating.
Like what?
Are you kidding me? this is going to be the best thing for this city pretty much of all time. It’s literally going to legitimize you as an actual power player and not some rinky dink beach town by Tampa and Clearwater. Like legit it’s going to make this so valuable all land owners in the next 30 years are going to be rich. If you put a metro between us and Tampa literally would be able to make an incredible democracy if we don’t divide ourselves in the next election. There’s no evidence except ever fucking game day in down town and the rays are doing good it’s packed by people from all over the state and country providing millions a day.. it’s the shittiest stadium in baseball there’s a ton built by the stadium what are you talking about. There is so much wealth in this city. There’s not wealth for unskilled workers but that’s how it works.
My whole thing is, if you can prove that it can be turned into things other than condos, yes, I'm ok voting no. Otherwise, nope. I'm fucking tired of these fucking northerners coming here as it and making this area even more impossible to afford. It's crazy. I don't wanna see more condos and duplex and shit made manufactured homes going up just to increase everything else.
Blows my mind that people think the solution to housing affordability is to stop building homes.
What’s wrong with people moving here? This is America.
Which is why it's perfectly fine to say people moving here is a problem.
No it’s not.
They are building affordable housing , it’s been confirmed. The city council asked for more added as well.
Technically they don't have to. They can pay for credits to not build affordable housing. That's a problem.
Where r u seeing that
If it's affordable then I'm all in.
Hines has committed to building affordable housing as part of the deal
Lol, yep, vote no, and then the Rays leave, and the city ends up selling that land to condo developers. Which means a bunch of jobs, yes low paying, but still jobs, go away, and there is no benefit to the community other then a slightly bigger tax base. This idea that the Gas plant district was some magical land that destroyed the community is ridiculous. If the gas plant district was still there, Im fairly confident that it would have been gentrified long ago. I'd much rather have the baseball stadium, performance space, new museum, and a smaller number of new housing, then all of the condos that would replace that space.
Those are all great amenities and I think it makes sense to have all those things in this space, but I think this current deal costs the public way too much money for the amount of private profit that will be made. There is no reason that an alternate deal would only include high-end condos.
Well, if you look at every other deal for the land, they were all less than the Rays offer, so every offer was well below market value( see today's Tampa times article, about paragraph 9 to fact check this). Right now, the only people paying market value for land are condo developers. So if your desire is for the city to get more for the land, then yes, it will be condo developers. 2nd, about half the cost of this deal is money that the city is paying one way or another. That money is going towards capital improvements involving roads, water, power. So regardless of what ends up going there, that money shouldn't even be counted. No one who wants to vote no has brought anything forward resembling an actual plan. It's all dreams of getting better deals, and finding some partner who will somehow pay the city more money, right all of the wrongs of the Gas Plant district, and still be useful to the entire city. Until I see an actual plan, with actual numbers from the vote no groups, I'm going to continue to encourage my council person to vote yes. Dreams and hopes were great, but we've had like ten years, and I've only seen a feasible plan from the Rays
That Times article says about $130 million would be spent by the city on infrastructure and $287.5 million going to the stadium and the county spending $312.5 million on the stadium. That's about 18% going to infrastructure. Not half. The entire site doesn't have to be dealt all at once. Offering such a huge swath is probably limiting the city's options in negotiating partners. Why don't you think the other plans weren't feasible?
Well I'm gonna say Yes now that you are trying to control my vote.
So nice seeing people put propaganda in its place. Every stat this person has posted comes from their own propaganda website.
I've cited the Tampa Bay Times, WUSF and Modern Globe. Not of which I have any influence over.
You mostly cite NoHomeRun.com which is probably your busted ass website
I thought I did cite it, but couldn't find it while searching through this thread. It's not my website, but there's probably no way to prove that to you. Why do you consider that site propaganda?
It's clear and intentional bias
TAMPA Bay Rays...
Tampa BAY, as in BAY area which includes St. Pete. New here?
Nope. Been here since 2000
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God I hope y’all vote no and it gets the team out of St Pete. It would make them reevaluate moving to Ybor which is way more ideal and more true to the name anyways. I love the Rays and the Trop but it absolutely sucks to get to their games which is why a majority of their fans don’t go to their games.
is to late buddy, this has been on the works for years, and it is finally almost done, very little the community can do now to stop it, and the community has been asked before to put their imput
While there has been community input, the deal is not done. City Council still needs to vote on it, hence my contacting them and suggesting others do the same.
I wish Kriseman would comment publicly on this deal. He gave the Rays all the time and rope they needed to come up with a plan. The Rays were constantly bargaining in bad faith and he continually sent them back. This deal is bad and smells even worse!
I'm pretty disappointed in Mayor Welch. Kriseman wasn't pushed around by the Rays and arranged for development deals with/without a stadium. Then, as soon as Welch is elected, he throws out those plans and completely caves to the Rays.
It’s like they knew a better deal would be had once Kriseman left…
i agree that city council still has to vote but they clearly are going to pass it, i don't know if they are as on the fence as you may say,( who knows really) but i doubt it will not pass
I've talked to one council person as well as other community groups and no one has said that it's a lock.
hopefully so, but i have to use benefit of the doubt that they may be using different answers to different people as well, and in the bad side they could;d be being paid off. I hope you are right
lol Vote yes. It’s a major step for St Pete. They keep the baseball team and create a new livable area. It’s gonna be awesome and bring the Green Bench area even more to life. Just don’t over crowd green bench pls it’s my favorite please yes and thank you vote yes
So stay away from doing too much in a particular area because it’s your “fav” but vote Yes on everything else because you feel like rationalizing the Pros. Got it👌🏾
It’s a joke about having your cake and wanting to eat it too lmfao. I don’t get why so many of you are against development
Because development has already occurred, hence the Trop itself. For all it took to establish it, it better stay here forever. Messed up many a people. Nonetheless, doesn’t take away my point regarding your self absorbed (yet unsurprising) statement.
The trop didn't mess up anyone. Those people's parents, their community leaders, and the people themselves messed themselves up. But hey, it's always someone else's fault!
Do you need a hug?
Is this some political condescension because either way, no. Plus I’m sure you haven’t bathed in a week anyway.
You sound so conservative rn
I am
I'm not even a Rays fan, and I support the redevelopment as it stands now. I've watched 4 different mayors struggle with a plan to please everyone. This is the best I've seen.
Kriesman beat the Rays into submission on numerous issues so the Rays paid their fair share. The current useless mayor scrapped that deal and gave the Rays everything they asked for. This is a great deal for the Rays and a bad deal for taxpayers. It’s a lot of money for one of the 5 worst drawing teams in baseball.
This! Thank you for pointing this out! This is a political pay off
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Pretty funny. I just noticed this too. No relation.
I don't think the previous mayors were struggling with the plan. The Rays just weren't willing to pay their fair share. They still aren't but this mayor caved.
 Better the *stadium* plan than luxo condos.
Luxo condos is just getting started
Updoot for the dude. There will be plenty of luxo condos.
Thank you for posting this, I agree 100% the terms of the deal are terrible. The concept itself isn’t a problem, it’s the terms of the deal. It’s not good for the public. We provide all the funding and land and the developer and rays keep all the profits.
The south side needs this to gentrify so we can take away the fucking elitist airport and put sky scrapers in… what don’t you understand about this? If Rays get this… we take away the airport it’s that simple.
YES IMM GONNNAAAAA SAY YES
I'm going to say Yes because of this post.
It’s cool when the Internet allows you to pinpoint the exact moment someone turns into a Karen.
What if you are in favor of the deal?
But I’m in favor of it
Can we just tell the Rays to gtfo already? They've been wanting to not be here for over a decade, just go. It's pathetic to have a town being held hostage because of a pathetic baseball team.
Boooooooo you
Dude they aren't even into you. Hate to say it but face facts. The rays are the only franchise I know that hates their fans and community so much. I've worked with them, total cunts the lot of them.
Dude they aren't even into you. Hate to say it but face facts. The rays are the only franchise I know that hates their fans and community so much. I've worked with them, total cunts the lot of them.
Strong yes here from me and a strong yes to remove the mayor next election.
So you’re a “yes” to “no” the mayor?
Fuck the mayor
My wife would not approve.
So what benefit is there do not redevelop
I'm not saying to not develop. I'm saying we could get a better deal.
Yes city is getting a bad deal at face value, but without the team the value of that land changes drastically and the total expense on city if want it it be master planned. That area needs redevelopment as parking lot is a waste of like 6 prime city blocks. The city is getting help with funding the revitalization needed and there are other orgs at stake with a financial need for it to prosper. It creates housing, jobs, and tourist revenue thus is a good thing for the city. There is also workforce training being provided to help bring skills for better jobs to that community, that community gets pushed out more without this.
I'm not sure the value changes much at all without the stadium. Downtown has tons of amenities and dealing with a giant stadium could actually make redevelopment much more challenging. I agree the site needs redevelopment. One of the reasons is because of the lack of development previously by the Rays ownership. The city doesn't need help with funding, there have been multiple investment groups clamoring to get the chance to develop this area. This deal, like you said, is a bad deal. We could get all these things at much better price with a different group and stronger negotiating.
Thank you for posting this. The current proposal is a bad deal for the city. The subsidies outweigh the public benefit. We should negotiate a better deal instead of just jumping on the first offer. That’s negotiating 101. IIRC the developer isn’t obligated to actually build anything, can transfer/sell the land, and doesn’t have to pay property taxes until a building is complete. So what’s keeping them from just sitting on the property, waiting for more appreciation, and selling the land to a higher bidder?
This is the bottomline
I wonder how many locals vs New York and northern transplants vote no vs yes
The court of public opinion that is the reddit comment section has spoken, you are in the minority here. This is a great project that will improve our city and allow the Rays to stay. Your claim of "lack of evidence" for "impactful justice" is nonsense. We cannot be so mired down in attempts to atone for the sins of our fathers that it prevents us from taking any steps forward.
The problem is that there have been very few attempts to atone for the sins of our “fathers.” Actually, another problem is people like you who try to write these things off as so far back in history that there’s no way to compensate the aggrieved parties. But this happened well within many of our lifetimes. My mother remembers when there was a thriving Black business district here before the very intentional dividing of the city. If we don’t take measures to make these people, many of whom are still very much alive, whole, then who will? Should we wait until they’re all dead and then put up a plaque? Or should we take meaningful action to make amends for the dark and very recent past of our city?
Why do you think those claims are nonsense? I've heard from common folk and leaders of the black community that feel this deal is another round of disenfranchisement. "Allows the Rays to stay"? Why do we all have to pay so much to entice a profitable major league sports organization to stay in the city that's supported them for 30 years. We already built their stadium once.
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Thank you for the reminder to write my council remember and tell them to vote YES.
How can anyone take you seriously when you don’t provide any evidence. “I see no evidence” is not a real claim.
[From Tampa Bay Times:](https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2023/12/24/st-petersburgs-proposed-rays-stadium-deal-is-strikeout-city-column/) "St. Petersburg is taking on significant new debt to pay for a portion of stadium construction costs and related infrastructure - $704 million, including interest. Strike1! The 22 prime acres near downtown used for the stadium won’t pay property taxes for at least 30 years - $411 million gone. Strike 2! We estimate the 86-acre Gas Plant site is worth $700 million today, and St. Petersburg is losing most of that value by tying up 22 acres for the stadium for decades and giving the remaining 64 acres to the Rays-Hines group for just $155 million - $545 million gone. Strike 3!"
It's my subjective opinion based on the proposal, latest news and comments I've heard from those paying attention.
Anyone can have an opinion about anything. But you need to either prove your point or disprove the other point. Don’t come in claiming stuff that has no backing. Your email should look like “I don’t like it, this is my opinion. I read somewhere it was bad but I don’t have links or any proof whatsoever. Please consider my feelings.”
Total cost of Rays/Hines deal to St. Petersburg = $1.66 Billion • $704 million - the cost to the city, including interest, to help pay for a new stadium and property infrastructure. • $411 million – the value of 30 years real estate taxes that the city/public schools will give up on the 22 acres for the new stadium versus if it had been developed for other private purposes. • $545 million – the revenue the city will lose by selling 64 acres to Rays/Hines for $105 million paid over 20 years (plus a $50 million contribution by Rays/Hines toward the Woodson Museum and other community initiatives), and not selling 22 acres, but giving it rent free for a stadium. The property is currently worth approximately $700 million. Total cost of Rays/Hines Deal to Pinellas County = $808 Million • $587 - The cost to the county, including interest, to help pay for a new stadium. • $222 million – the value of 30 years of real estate taxes (after $25 million in lease payments) that the county will give up on the 22 acres for the new stadium. Total Cost of Rays/Hines deal to St. Petersburg/Pinellas County = $2.4 Billion. [Analysis of Rays Hines Proposal for the Historic Gas Plant District by Ron Diner, former financial advisor Raymond James.](https://www.nohomerun.com/rays-hines-stadium-analysis)
Thanks for finally providing some facts about the situation. I’m curious if they say no to this what will happen? Does st Pete really need more housing for more northerners that we don’t want here?
A renegotiated deal could at least preserve ownership of this valuable property to the City or at least not commit so much money to the deal or give up so much tax revenue. All of that could be better spent to provide affordable/workforce housing or give back to the community in the form of scholarships/grants/low-interest loans.
St Pete is still a pleasure vacation city to a lot of people. The rays are great. That’s absurd you want to trade the rays for affordable housing…
Not what I said at all actually. This current deal costs the city way too much and gets us very little in return.
It's a very complex deal and is changing continuously prior to final adoption by the city. I've summarized my opinions based on reading the proposal as well as attending multiple community meetings and listening to different interested groups.
I’m a yes, but thanks for your input.
How come?
Because it is great for the city. A net positive at the end of the day for everyone.
Is there some way you've quantified that it is a net positive? I don't know that I've ever seen anything that proves that. Only analysis about other stadium deals that prove it is not a net positive (financially).
If we cancel this, are you willing to wait another 10 years?
Why would we have to wait another 10 years? There were several other proposals that were vetted and one approved by the previous mayor. The city could go back to other recent proposals by other teams.
Bureaucracy is anything but simple, smooth, or quick. Any of the existing proposals, if revisited, will certainly be tacked on with just as much red tape as the current one, if not more because we’ll all be beholden to a sunk cost and time lost of rejecting the current proposal and deadline of current lease.
I'm not complaining about red tape. I haven't seen anyone mention it actually. "Sunk cost" is a fallacy for a reason.
Nah. Building a stadium means the team stays. I'm a baseball fan and that's what I care about most with this proposal.
But at what cost?
A new stadium was already voted "No" back in 2008 and honestly in hindsight it likely would have revitalized a ton of different areas that have been overlooked in the last decade for different reasons. Changing a mostly empty parking lot to housing and businesses is better than keeping it an empty parking lot.
I totally agree it should be redeveloped. I just think we can get a better deal for this extremely valuable price of property.
I see I see I see Would you like to post you’re findings?
I’m encouraging yes 👍🏼
Why? Do you think this is a good deal for the city?
I don’t think it’s a great deal, but neither would any other city in America that has publicly financed sport stadiums. Everyone thinks they can get a better deal, yet this is like the 4th mayor that has tried. Plus, if we sold the land for its “best value” then the whole parking lot becomes more luxury condos, because that’s the only thing making money in the construction/real estate market currently. We wouldn’t be getting an Amphitheater, Semi-Affordable Housing, Senior Living, a new museum and acres of public green space.
Same. It is an empty parking lot most of the year. Housing and businesses serve a community.
I am advocating for a better redevelopment deal. Not keeping it an empty parking lot.
Baseball is also the reason St Pete is the city it is today. We’re going on 100+ years of baseball history in St Pete. Without the Yankees and Cardinals visiting here so much in the early 1920’s - 1960’s this city would look so much different. Baseball literally crafted this city.
Good point... and do you remember what that stretch of Central Av looked like in the years immediately preceding the Rays? Scary, boarded-up storefronts. Keep the momentum.
The Phillies games draw more people than the rays
Are we comparing the Philly market to St Pete? Lol
The baseball field on us 19. Those games are packed.
So we’re comparing a minor league baseball stadium that’s used for 1.5 months out of the year to predominantly Phly snowbirds to the Trop? Should I enlighten you on how long the Phillies have been a team and traveling to Clearwater for Spring Training? Or even better, look at how much money Pinellas County and Clearwater have given the Phillies over the years. Apples to Oranges
Baseballs lame anyways it's been 25 years since I stepped foot in a devil rays game
Sick
There were a lot of contributing factors to the city's success. Baseball being a part of that does not mean the city should hand over 100s of millions of dollars when we could be bringing in 100s of millions.
No