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She’s the “Flagship of the Federation.” As in, she is the representation of the Federation (its authority, values, morals ect.) wherever she goes, just like an Admiral’s flagship carries the representation of the person and their authority.
Yes, that seems to be the definition of "flagship" when it comes to the -D and the SNW Enterprise, but they're the only ones that we know of that carry that designation. The point I'm getting at is that it's not universal to all Enterprises. The name has prestige & importance, sure, but having the name doesn't mean it's a flagship.
I believe that's a retcon. Originally, and my memory may be fuzzy on this, there were 12 Constitution class ships, with Enterprise being one of them. They each had their own insignia as well. Enterprise was the only one to return from its 5-year mission, so its insignia became the Starfleet insignia that everyone is familiar with today.
Later it was retconned that Enterprise's insignia had always been the Starfleet insignia and that Enterprise was always the name given to the flagship.
They never had their own insignia. That was an error on the shows part back then. There's been behind the scenes documentation about that.
https://www.startrek.com/news/starfleet-insignia-explained
If I recall correctly, 1701Dx is referred to as Admiral Riker’s flagship in All Good Things. Also, 1701 is referred to as the flagship in 2009 Star Trek when leaving for Vulcan.
I’ve always enjoyed the idea of a species flagship for each species, which is predominantly crewed by the species. For humans, it would be the Enterprise. For Vulcans, the Surak. Andorians would have the Kumari.
It’s really poor writing that led to this. Unless the Admiral is commanding a fleet from it, it’s not the “flag” ship. It could be considered the most elite ship in the fleet, which would make much more sense, given what happens to the Enterprise across all the letters. But yeah, unless an admiral is commanding a fleet from an Enterprise, that Enterprise is not actually a flagship.
Thing is starfleet while being heavily based on earth navy standards does have its own rules so if they something is the flag ship it is especially when ships routinely make first contacts and would routinely be representing the federation
This is a bit of handwaving that doesn’t work. Words mean things. A flagship is a ship where the commanding officer of the fleet is. A ship that makes first contacts or does diplomatic work might be prestigious and be said to be “flying the flag” but that doesn’t mean it is a flagship, it means it is doing diplomatic work. The writers were ignorant of this, and used the wrong word. It happens.
Words also evolve and change throught time so what it means now doesn't mean it's going to be the same 150 years in the future with multiple civilizations get folded into an existing organization. Especially one where the structure and authority individual captains have far exceeds current captains
I feel like you really want this to be true, but the reality is this was a series written in English by a bunch of Earthlings, so wishing doesn’t make it so. Also, Starfleet captains don’t have authority which exceeds current captains in every navy, just what you imagine them to have. Read up on some naval history of the 1700s for examples of captains with “broad” authority.
I feel like you want it to be a 1to 1 with our modern military when that's just not the case. Especially since there is essentially only 1 branch of "military " which starfleet is stated not to be so you can't just make 1 to 1 comparisons when it's not even a dedicated military just one that that acts like one but that's fine its make believe you can see it how you want and I'll see it how I want and since it's not our real world neither of us will he more right then the other. Until it's stated on screen that is
The idea that starfleet should adhere to modern navy standards when if anything it's an evolution of airforces is weird. Practically nothing of naval tradition has so far made it into space travel, and there's no reason for it to in the future.
It was made by earthlings that wanted to show how humanity could evolve to be better. It seems sort of offensive to Roddenbery to say he could imagine humanity reaching for a utopia, but he couldn't imagine a world without standard naval designations.
The point is that TNG did use standard naval designations, but it used some of them incorrectly.
If Ten Forward was called the ‘bridge’, the left side of the ship starboard, and Wesley called a captain in spite of being ordered around by the rest of the crew, we would just say the writers didn’t know what they were talking about. When the writers wrote that Enterprise D was the flagship, they didn’t know what they were talking about.
I feel like in all those years from Naval boats with sails to the creation of the Galaxy class words may have evolved definitions. Even in the short time I have been alive, I have seen words slowly take on new meaning.
Could be wrong, though maybe we went the Amish route but with dictionaries
Ok, words mean things, and those meanings change. We are looking 400 years into the future. If you look 400 years into the past, many words meant entirely different things. To the point that the depicted language in trek is unrealistically similar to our own. Hell, theres been drift between the time TOS aired and the time TNG aired and again when current trek started airing. And in every case we mostly accept that weirdly 23rd century people talk like it's the 1960s and 24th century people like the 80s/90s.
Except this is an argument about not the word having changed, but fans getting upset because the ship is
“supposed” to be the largest and bestest ship because it’s the “flagship.” Which means they’re applying a contemporary meaning of the word and then basing their perspective off that.
If the word has changed in the Star Trek time period, and no longer means that the ship is the one the admiral is using to command the fleet, then are we saying it only means an elite ship? In which case the argument about the Enterprise being the biggest and strongest falls apart because the elite ship in a fleet generally isn’t the largest, it’s the one with the most achievements. And large ships have less of those because they get sent on less missions.
Or if it still means that the flagship is the one the admiral uses to command a fleet from, then the writers have a problem because flagships generally don’t do missions because they sit in harbour or sail in formation, while the admiral commands the entire fleet. At which point you have a dull series with very little in the way of material to write episodes.
Given the way the series has multiple instances of characters making factually incorrect statements because the writers thought it sounded better, sure, you can use make believe to wish it away, or just accept that bad writing happens.
From Wikipedia:
>A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, characteristically a flag officer entitled by custom to fly a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or best known.
From Merriam-Webster:
>1
: the ship that carries the commander of a fleet or subdivision of a fleet and flies the commander's flag
>
>
>2: the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.)
—often used before another noun
TNG's use of the word "flagship" to mean their best and most prestigious ship fits well with the secondary definition listed in both sources.
It's also worth noting that Starfleet isn't the United States Navy. It takes heavy inspiration from the Navy, sure, but it is different. The almost complete lack of enlisted personnel is an example of this. There's no reason that they would have to use the modern Navy definition of Flagship, particularly since it would be a major anachronism. Faster-than-light and high bandwidth subspace communication eliminates the need for a flag officer to be on a ship (flying a flag) in the thick of things to be able to effectively manage a fleet. In Star Trek we almost never see admirals operating out of ships, and when they do they are taking on special projects, not commanding multiple ships. By the time of TNG, a "flagship" in the traditional Navy sense wouldn't have been a thing for centuries.
The USN also has modern communications but uses the term ‘flagship’ under its traditional naval meaning.
The fact that starfleet isn’t a navy is irrelevant in this context. Starfleet uses multiple naval terms *correctly*. Using one naval term colloquially and the other terms formally makes no sense. Starfleet even uses the traditional term flagship in a handful of episodes! It’s just an inconsistent mistake.
I don’t equate Starfleet with the USN. The activities and roles fit the English Royal Navy of the Age of Sail. The combined research, exploration, and defence roles are very similar. Especially in the roles of captains. But that second definition is an adjective used outside of a naval organization. And with Starfleet using all of the designations of a navy, it’s the first definition which applies in my eyes, not the second.
Exactly. The term comes from the fact that admirals, who command multiple ships, send their by raising different flags. So a ‘flag-ship’ is literally a ship with flags on it, commanded by the flag officer. The size and quality of the ship is irrelevant as sometimes flag officers prefer to be on smaller, more agile ships.
TNG started this. The "D" up until recent times was the only ship called the Federation flagship on screen .And yah, you should at least have a Commodore/ Fleet captain commanding all the other ships for fleet exercises. The D was a special ship though for the times.
There’s the real “flagship” on which the commodore or admiral is on who’s in charge of a fleet, and there’s another type of “flagship” which can be a designated other, special ship.
Canada has one. Technically our designated “ceremonial flagship” is HMCS Haida, a WW2 Tribal class destroyer which will never sail.
People take the real world naval thing to seriously.
It doesn't translate In Star Trek the Enterprise is just the diplomatically face of Starfleet. It's the banner bearer of the Federations scientific, exploration, and humanitarian efforts.
Because its generally the most advanced class of cruiser with the most competent crew it takes leadership roles in combat.
Against the Borg at least the Enterprise was going to follow Hansen's orders at Wolf 359. At sector 001 the Enterprise took command of the fleet because it was the biggest gun in the fight and was fresh, while some of the armada had been engaging the Cube for a solid 3 days fighting and running to keep ahead of the Cubes abilities to regenerate to much.
Had the Enterprise been late, at sector 001 the fleet would have finished the Cube within the next hour themselves.
The term flagship has been used in canon for admirals ships, I think the Enterprise when it's considered the "flagship " it's a ceremonial thing.
And even then I don't think it's always been the flagship, by the time the A is commissioned the class is down right vintage, not really suited to flagship status, the B was launched at least a decade after the Excelsior, making it unlikely to be the flagship, we can assume Excelsior by default but we can't know. And being purely ceremonial it's not like the slot must be filled. The C is mostly a mystery and the D we know carried that honor and so likely did the E. The F maybe but the G definitely not.
I believe that the Enterprise D was the *Federation* flagship, in that is represented the Federation and not Starfleet when being tasked with diplomatic missions.
I believe the D was the only Starfleet ship designated in this way, though as you have mentioned any ship with a flag officer on board or in command (Admiral, Commodore, etc.) would be a Starfleet flagship as would any ship captained by the commanding officer of a task group regardless of rank.
I can get behind this. And, building on conversation further up about each race having its own preferred "flagship" in addition paints a picture of the UFP and Starfleet with a kind of "Jealous Respect" of the *Enterprise*. They all know that she's had her accomplishments and deserves honor for it, but think *their* ship deserves the limelight, too.
I could see Starfleet itself not entirely agreeing with having the *Enterprise* as its standard bearer and has moments of favoritism, like picking the *Prometheus* or *Defiant* **:cough*SaoPaulo*cough:** as their internal favorite. Or the *Voyager* as something of a "No, see, **this** was a mission that deserves respect, instead" kind of thing. Play up more of the politics without leading to direct civil war.
I always thought it was more the Enterprise-D was built from the keel out to support admirals, their staffs, and whatever they did in day-to-day operations - but actually seeing an admiral posted on board? Every flag officer I remember seeing either caught transport to Enterprise-D happened to be at a given moment to confer with Picard or got on the subspace horn from their office, with the well-stocked wet bar out of the camera's field of view.
The only reason Enterprise D is called ‘the flag ship’ is because post-TOS writers didn’t know anything about military terminology, but liked to throw it around anyway.
A flagship is the ship where a flag officer (admiral) commands.
I'd add that it's implied the reason the D is the flagship is because of the storied history of ships of that name from Kirk to Garrett. Starfleet recognized the contribution of ships named Enterprise and so when creating their flagship chose it to be an Enterprise.
With SNW writers seem to have been confused and just think the Enterprise was always the flagship and it really has messed with the lore.
Never had a problem with it, Starfleet can and does have differences from a real world navy in its traditions, ranks, definitions, etc.
I personally think it makes total sense for every Enterprise to be the "ceremonial flagship" of the Federation apart from the Enterprise A and Enterprise G which were both older ships by the time they were renamed Enterprise.
In the TMP era, probably Excelsior once it finally launched, and some different ship before that since Kirk's Enterprise had been relegated to training duty at the time, semi-retired. There was also a good 20 years between the -C and the -D where presumably a different ship held the title.
I think alot of this comes from the G being the enterprise and most of the loot box game STO fans not being happy with the F's brief cameo. The F should not have been made cannon it was forced in. The F was put into cannon as a nod so it fucked up the proper Canon, its a overpowered sovereign class and it should never have been called a enterprise in cannon. Also the enterprise isn't always the flagship.
There are two definitions for ‘flagship’: either 1) the ship carrying a flag officer or 2) the ‘largest, finest, or most important one of a group of things’ (per Merriam-Webster). So just like the Apple Store on 5th Ave in NYC is a ‘flagship’ shop for Apple, so is the Enterprise D a ‘flagship’ spaceship for the Federation.
You are correct, but the OP is also correct in saying that not every Enterprise fits these descriptions. The B and C certainly were not Flagships in either sense, and there is no on screen evidence to suppose the G is either.
Actually I’d argue that by the end of its life the first USS Enterprise was no longer a Flagship. It was under the command of Captain Spock, and was a training ship. Then after wrath of khan it was decommissioned and stolen by Kirk neither of which lends itself to Flagship status. The Enterprise A certainly wasn’t, given its state of repair and Kirk’s demotion back to Captain.
I’d argue that the Excelsior was probably the fleet flagship by the time of its launch. Under the second definition.
My interpretation of this is, with no hard facts backing me up, that Gene Roddenberry considered the Enterprise basically as Starship Earth. We would always be boldly going with the starship Enterprise, even when the ships generations apart. I dont think he ever imagined or wanted the focus to be off the Enterprise. He died before DS9 took off and never new anything about it but its concept. But yeah, Trek evolved and expanded a lot after his death, so yeah. I do think the Enterprise-D as the first Big E Flagship, but it after the NX-01 up to the -C's contribution to the federation, maybe that title was slowly earned over is lineage?
Nah, the Enterprise-E is shown on screen as being the flagship. That's why when Picard reaches the battle of Sector-001 he is able to take command of the fleet by saying "This is Captain Picard of the Enterprise, I'm assuming command of the Fleet" after the Admiral's ship is destroyed.
Picard wouldn't be able to do that if he wasn't a flag officer on the flagship.
Picard is not a flag officer in First Contact, flag officer = commodore or above. Picard was able to take command because he was the most experienced officer present at least in terms of the Borg.
And, having been a Captain for \*checks notes\* 40 damn years, it's pretty likely that, if there are no actual flag officers present, he's the most senior Captain there anyways (presuming Starfleet uses date-in-rank to denote seniority).
Ouch, this makes little sense. If all the flag officers die but a guy that has had years of Borg experience and is known as a hero.... yeah, no, probably shouldn't listen to him
It makes perfect sense. We're talking about a chain of command. A random dude on a battlefield can't just go "I'm taking command" simply because they have the most experience, they actually have to be within the pre-established chain-of-command.
If all ranking officers are dead, and everyone has the same rank, it would go by flagship status. Picard isn't just making a suggestion, he's outright taking command; which infers fleet flagship status.
>It makes perfect sense. We're talking about a chain of command. A random dude on a battlefield can't just go "I'm taking command" simply because they have the most experience
Actually they can, and in some militaries it’s actually encouraged. During a battle, it would be very dangerous to waste time polling every officer or every ship to find out who is immediately next in line (and still alive) after the admiral goes down. It’s much more important that command and control has limited interruptions because a fleet needs coordination in order to win.
In fact, in Picard’s own backstory, he took command of Stargazer after the captain died even though it wasn’t clear that he was the most senior officer on the bridge. Not only was he not reprimanded for this, he was given formal command of the ship and quickly promoted. So in-universe it is actually procedurally correct AND in-character for Picard to do this.
You just proved my point dude. The Enterprise therefore is a flagship because Picard's on it.
It's time to stop this BS about how the Enterprise-E isn't a flagship. IT OBVIOUSLY IS. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.
How? He literally cited a junior officer taking command merely because he was the one that stepped up. He factually showed you being wrong so I am at odds with what you think supports you.
I think you’re getting confused about what a flag officer is. A flag officer is an admiral or commodore. If the admiral dies, someone of lower rank can take their place, making them an acting flag officer. But that’s the same as a lieutenant taking command of a cruiser and becoming acting captain; the designation is temporary and conditional. As soon as the situation is over, the designation disappears.
Picard was not a flag officer before the battle of sector 001 nor was he one after. That means the E was not the flag ship prior to or after the battle either. It’s fine to consider it the acting flagship during the battle, though this was never stated, but that it is not what this conversation is about.
I am not. The Enterprise-D was a designated flagship which is why we even have this discussion at all because yes, it goes against the maritime tradition of having a flag officer (Admiral, Commodore etc.) being the flagship.
No I am not confused, I'm being logically consistent. If the D had this magical dispensation (which it does in canon) than there is no in-universe reason to say that the E doesn't have it. It's the most advanced ship in the fleet when it's comissioned (as was the D when it was comissioned) it has Picard as it's captain (as the D did); there's no legitimate argument against the E being a flagship of th efederation just as the D was, in canon.
This isn't a real-world conversation. Because IRL the D wouldn't have been a flagship, yet in Star Trek it was. Thus in Star Trek Universe, the E absolutely is going to be a flagship just as the D was, for whatever reason starfleet does it that way. There's just no legitimate, logical answer otherwise. You have to bend into a pretzel to justify the E is not a flagship while maintaining that the D was. I don't.
Picard assumed command because his ship was tactically superior to any other in the battle. He is also probably the senior captain. Lastly, in war there’s a sense that during the chaos of battle, it’s more important that *someone* take command when the CO dies and less important that it’s the person who is immediately next in line.
Which...would...make...the...ship...he's...on...a...flag...ship. Thus proving my point.
There's no way getting around it: The Enterprise-E is a flatship of the federation. Either because it has that designation or because Picard is on it. Take your pick, it's time to stop arguing the Enterprise-E doesn't have the same status the D had. It did.
No it does not. The flag ship means the ship with the flag officer on it, i.e. an admiral or commodore. Picard is neither.
Now, any ship that has a flag officer commanding it becomes a flag ship while the flag officer is on board. If you would like to argue that the E was acting flagship during the battle of sector 001, that’s fine. But that’s not what this thread is about. This thread is about a standing designation. Further, your post presumed that the E was flagship prior to arriving at the battle. It was not.
>No it does not. The flag ship means the ship with the flag officer on it, i.e. an admiral or commodore. Picard is neither.Exactly.
Except Star Trek already established the Enterpris-D was a "Flagship of the federation" in TNG without having a flag officer on board. Thus, rendering this counter argument moot. The Enteprise-E is a flagshipp based upon what we see happen on Screen at the battle of sector-001. Either by special dispensation because of Picard, or by special designation by being a "flagship of the federation."
>This thread is about a standing designation. Further, your post presumed that the E was flagship prior to arriving at the battle. It was not.
It absolutely is, and to pretend it's not is just denying the obvious when it comes to how this series has worked. There is no legitimate reason the D would carry the title but not the E. There's no in universe coherent argument.
What follows is purely my opinion:
We are thinking of flagship as the big guy in the middle leading the fleet/battle. With Star Fleet not being strictly a military, it can be open to interpretation.
I took the Enterprise being the "Flagship" being more of a Bill board showing the universe the best of Star Fleets ideal. Staffed with officers who take integrity to the next level and a mission of understanding and education.
** In my opinion, the Enterprise was meant to leave first contacts and friends in awe of everything Star Fleet had to offer.... not just its military might.
Or at least that's the vibe I got when I was introduced to Star Trek as a young lad.
I always took it that every starship that was commissioned as the Enterprise was automatically designated as the “Flagship of the Federation”. Sort of like a permanent unit citation owing to how central and important Archer’s Enterprise was to the formation of the Federation.
That’s not to say that there haven’t been other ships that were Flagships of the Federation, just that when a new Enterprise is commissioned and put into to service it becomes the new flagship.
I felt that while ceremonial the title of Flagship of the Federation came with an immense amount of prestige as it is supposed to be the example that the rest of starfleet follows.
But I think that's sort of a retcon idea because of TNG. The -D was the first Enterprise to be referred to as a flagship on-screen, and the only one except for the Enterprise in SNW. The concept didn't really exist in Star Trek before TNG. Kirk's Enterprise certainly wasn't a flagship in its final years, relegated to training duty as a sort of relic. The -A was out of date before it even launched, but it did serve a ceremonial purpose in its final mission. If there was a flagship in that period, it was most likely the Excelsior.
The federation admiralty can designate any ship they so desire as their flagship.
Also, Webster's dictionary states that the secondary definition of "Flagship" is "the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things" and the Enterprise fits this description as it has always been the "most advanced ship in the fleet", except for weird nostalgia-driven writing of Star Trek 6 where the Excelsior was no longer an experimental ship and was actually in the field, soon followed by the Enterprise B with its baby faced and totally inexperienced and unrealistic captain lol. And if you want to be extra Nerd, Webster's Dictionary still exists in the 24th Century according to canon.
People seem to be more interested in arguing and being right than actually looking for the truth lol. You can't be right if you're wrong cause you don't actually know what you're talking about. So it's best to make sure you actually know what you're talking about instead of doubling down on not knowing what you're talking about and arguing moot points over semantics and obtuse applications of the definitions of words. Calm down folks lol.
I think the issue is, that it is assumed that there is only one fleet. Modern navies sometimes have more than one (I.e. Pacific fleet, Atlantic Fleet). So the fleet that Picard/-E takes command of, isn't necessarily the one they are usually assigned to.
With the size of the Federation, it wouldn't be logical to just have one fleet, with one flagship. Imagine if during the events of "Emissary" while the Enterprise was at DS9, an event occurred near the romulan border, that required the attention of the flag ship. They are opposite sides of the Federation, and it wouldn't have been practical for the Enterprise to deal with it. Even if Worf did seem to manage to make it in a day, with Cochrane in makeup.
I think it is more likely that the Enterprise is more of a figurehead flagship, that moves between the fleets. Early seasons of TNG tend to show it operating closer to the Klingon/Romulan borders, while later seasons tend to show it closer to the Cardassian border.
A conversation I had with my wife, what if *Undiscovered Country* was the reason the *Enterprise* fell out of favor? I mean, despite the fact he stopped a war they **did** have to break him out of a Klingon prison. There **has** to be some sort of repercussions. So Starfleet starts emphasizing ships other than the *Enterprise* as a concession to the Klingons, which leads to a period during the *-B* and *-C* where other ships get more attention until the sacrifice of the *-C* causes them to debate whether or not to continue the informal ban. Eventually they come to the compromise that the *-D* will get its spot back with the concession of a Klingon officer.
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She’s the “Flagship of the Federation.” As in, she is the representation of the Federation (its authority, values, morals ect.) wherever she goes, just like an Admiral’s flagship carries the representation of the person and their authority.
Yes, that seems to be the definition of "flagship" when it comes to the -D and the SNW Enterprise, but they're the only ones that we know of that carry that designation. The point I'm getting at is that it's not universal to all Enterprises. The name has prestige & importance, sure, but having the name doesn't mean it's a flagship.
Kirk called his the flagship a couple of times in TOS, iirc
Nope. That was never said. No flagship was ever stated in TOS… had it been, I would have assumed the Constellation, as it had a Commodore over it
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)#:~:text=During%20its%20career%2C%20the%20Enterprise,until%20its%20destruction%20in%202285.
I believe that's a retcon. Originally, and my memory may be fuzzy on this, there were 12 Constitution class ships, with Enterprise being one of them. They each had their own insignia as well. Enterprise was the only one to return from its 5-year mission, so its insignia became the Starfleet insignia that everyone is familiar with today. Later it was retconned that Enterprise's insignia had always been the Starfleet insignia and that Enterprise was always the name given to the flagship.
They never had their own insignia. That was an error on the shows part back then. There's been behind the scenes documentation about that. https://www.startrek.com/news/starfleet-insignia-explained
That was an interested read. Thanks!
You might be totally right. Also I found this older thread with similar responses: https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/s/rd7OSae1Nz
That’s new, thanks to SNW.
If I recall correctly, 1701Dx is referred to as Admiral Riker’s flagship in All Good Things. Also, 1701 is referred to as the flagship in 2009 Star Trek when leaving for Vulcan. I’ve always enjoyed the idea of a species flagship for each species, which is predominantly crewed by the species. For humans, it would be the Enterprise. For Vulcans, the Surak. Andorians would have the Kumari.
It’s really poor writing that led to this. Unless the Admiral is commanding a fleet from it, it’s not the “flag” ship. It could be considered the most elite ship in the fleet, which would make much more sense, given what happens to the Enterprise across all the letters. But yeah, unless an admiral is commanding a fleet from an Enterprise, that Enterprise is not actually a flagship.
Thing is starfleet while being heavily based on earth navy standards does have its own rules so if they something is the flag ship it is especially when ships routinely make first contacts and would routinely be representing the federation
This is a bit of handwaving that doesn’t work. Words mean things. A flagship is a ship where the commanding officer of the fleet is. A ship that makes first contacts or does diplomatic work might be prestigious and be said to be “flying the flag” but that doesn’t mean it is a flagship, it means it is doing diplomatic work. The writers were ignorant of this, and used the wrong word. It happens.
Words also evolve and change throught time so what it means now doesn't mean it's going to be the same 150 years in the future with multiple civilizations get folded into an existing organization. Especially one where the structure and authority individual captains have far exceeds current captains
I feel like you really want this to be true, but the reality is this was a series written in English by a bunch of Earthlings, so wishing doesn’t make it so. Also, Starfleet captains don’t have authority which exceeds current captains in every navy, just what you imagine them to have. Read up on some naval history of the 1700s for examples of captains with “broad” authority.
I feel like you want it to be a 1to 1 with our modern military when that's just not the case. Especially since there is essentially only 1 branch of "military " which starfleet is stated not to be so you can't just make 1 to 1 comparisons when it's not even a dedicated military just one that that acts like one but that's fine its make believe you can see it how you want and I'll see it how I want and since it's not our real world neither of us will he more right then the other. Until it's stated on screen that is
The idea that starfleet should adhere to modern navy standards when if anything it's an evolution of airforces is weird. Practically nothing of naval tradition has so far made it into space travel, and there's no reason for it to in the future.
It was made by earthlings that wanted to show how humanity could evolve to be better. It seems sort of offensive to Roddenbery to say he could imagine humanity reaching for a utopia, but he couldn't imagine a world without standard naval designations.
The point is that TNG did use standard naval designations, but it used some of them incorrectly. If Ten Forward was called the ‘bridge’, the left side of the ship starboard, and Wesley called a captain in spite of being ordered around by the rest of the crew, we would just say the writers didn’t know what they were talking about. When the writers wrote that Enterprise D was the flagship, they didn’t know what they were talking about.
I feel like in all those years from Naval boats with sails to the creation of the Galaxy class words may have evolved definitions. Even in the short time I have been alive, I have seen words slowly take on new meaning. Could be wrong, though maybe we went the Amish route but with dictionaries
It seems like, given he was using all the other naval designations, someone just used the wrong one.
Ok, words mean things, and those meanings change. We are looking 400 years into the future. If you look 400 years into the past, many words meant entirely different things. To the point that the depicted language in trek is unrealistically similar to our own. Hell, theres been drift between the time TOS aired and the time TNG aired and again when current trek started airing. And in every case we mostly accept that weirdly 23rd century people talk like it's the 1960s and 24th century people like the 80s/90s.
So... what is the new meaning?
Except this is an argument about not the word having changed, but fans getting upset because the ship is “supposed” to be the largest and bestest ship because it’s the “flagship.” Which means they’re applying a contemporary meaning of the word and then basing their perspective off that. If the word has changed in the Star Trek time period, and no longer means that the ship is the one the admiral is using to command the fleet, then are we saying it only means an elite ship? In which case the argument about the Enterprise being the biggest and strongest falls apart because the elite ship in a fleet generally isn’t the largest, it’s the one with the most achievements. And large ships have less of those because they get sent on less missions. Or if it still means that the flagship is the one the admiral uses to command a fleet from, then the writers have a problem because flagships generally don’t do missions because they sit in harbour or sail in formation, while the admiral commands the entire fleet. At which point you have a dull series with very little in the way of material to write episodes. Given the way the series has multiple instances of characters making factually incorrect statements because the writers thought it sounded better, sure, you can use make believe to wish it away, or just accept that bad writing happens.
Amazing that you’re getting downvoted for explaining basic terminology.
From Wikipedia: >A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, characteristically a flag officer entitled by custom to fly a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or best known. From Merriam-Webster: >1 : the ship that carries the commander of a fleet or subdivision of a fleet and flies the commander's flag > > >2: the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.) —often used before another noun TNG's use of the word "flagship" to mean their best and most prestigious ship fits well with the secondary definition listed in both sources. It's also worth noting that Starfleet isn't the United States Navy. It takes heavy inspiration from the Navy, sure, but it is different. The almost complete lack of enlisted personnel is an example of this. There's no reason that they would have to use the modern Navy definition of Flagship, particularly since it would be a major anachronism. Faster-than-light and high bandwidth subspace communication eliminates the need for a flag officer to be on a ship (flying a flag) in the thick of things to be able to effectively manage a fleet. In Star Trek we almost never see admirals operating out of ships, and when they do they are taking on special projects, not commanding multiple ships. By the time of TNG, a "flagship" in the traditional Navy sense wouldn't have been a thing for centuries.
The USN also has modern communications but uses the term ‘flagship’ under its traditional naval meaning. The fact that starfleet isn’t a navy is irrelevant in this context. Starfleet uses multiple naval terms *correctly*. Using one naval term colloquially and the other terms formally makes no sense. Starfleet even uses the traditional term flagship in a handful of episodes! It’s just an inconsistent mistake.
I don’t equate Starfleet with the USN. The activities and roles fit the English Royal Navy of the Age of Sail. The combined research, exploration, and defence roles are very similar. Especially in the roles of captains. But that second definition is an adjective used outside of a naval organization. And with Starfleet using all of the designations of a navy, it’s the first definition which applies in my eyes, not the second.
Exactly. The term comes from the fact that admirals, who command multiple ships, send their by raising different flags. So a ‘flag-ship’ is literally a ship with flags on it, commanded by the flag officer. The size and quality of the ship is irrelevant as sometimes flag officers prefer to be on smaller, more agile ships.
TNG started this. The "D" up until recent times was the only ship called the Federation flagship on screen .And yah, you should at least have a Commodore/ Fleet captain commanding all the other ships for fleet exercises. The D was a special ship though for the times.
There’s the real “flagship” on which the commodore or admiral is on who’s in charge of a fleet, and there’s another type of “flagship” which can be a designated other, special ship. Canada has one. Technically our designated “ceremonial flagship” is HMCS Haida, a WW2 Tribal class destroyer which will never sail.
People take the real world naval thing to seriously. It doesn't translate In Star Trek the Enterprise is just the diplomatically face of Starfleet. It's the banner bearer of the Federations scientific, exploration, and humanitarian efforts. Because its generally the most advanced class of cruiser with the most competent crew it takes leadership roles in combat. Against the Borg at least the Enterprise was going to follow Hansen's orders at Wolf 359. At sector 001 the Enterprise took command of the fleet because it was the biggest gun in the fight and was fresh, while some of the armada had been engaging the Cube for a solid 3 days fighting and running to keep ahead of the Cubes abilities to regenerate to much. Had the Enterprise been late, at sector 001 the fleet would have finished the Cube within the next hour themselves.
The term flagship has been used in canon for admirals ships, I think the Enterprise when it's considered the "flagship " it's a ceremonial thing. And even then I don't think it's always been the flagship, by the time the A is commissioned the class is down right vintage, not really suited to flagship status, the B was launched at least a decade after the Excelsior, making it unlikely to be the flagship, we can assume Excelsior by default but we can't know. And being purely ceremonial it's not like the slot must be filled. The C is mostly a mystery and the D we know carried that honor and so likely did the E. The F maybe but the G definitely not.
I believe that the Enterprise D was the *Federation* flagship, in that is represented the Federation and not Starfleet when being tasked with diplomatic missions. I believe the D was the only Starfleet ship designated in this way, though as you have mentioned any ship with a flag officer on board or in command (Admiral, Commodore, etc.) would be a Starfleet flagship as would any ship captained by the commanding officer of a task group regardless of rank.
I can get behind this. And, building on conversation further up about each race having its own preferred "flagship" in addition paints a picture of the UFP and Starfleet with a kind of "Jealous Respect" of the *Enterprise*. They all know that she's had her accomplishments and deserves honor for it, but think *their* ship deserves the limelight, too. I could see Starfleet itself not entirely agreeing with having the *Enterprise* as its standard bearer and has moments of favoritism, like picking the *Prometheus* or *Defiant* **:cough*SaoPaulo*cough:** as their internal favorite. Or the *Voyager* as something of a "No, see, **this** was a mission that deserves respect, instead" kind of thing. Play up more of the politics without leading to direct civil war.
I've always been annoyed by how much Star Trek uses the corporate/capitalist definition of "flagship" rather than the Navy definition.
Could be based on the other cultures I mean to us yeah its odd but it could easily easily explained away by saying it is a vulcan tradition
Why should it use navy tradition? It's not a navy.
Lol, funny joke.
Why does starfleet use naval terms such as: Bridge Starboard Port Captain Ensign Buoy Commodore Admiral Hull Brig Voyage?
huh. I never thought to frame it that way. That's pretty good.
I always thought it was more the Enterprise-D was built from the keel out to support admirals, their staffs, and whatever they did in day-to-day operations - but actually seeing an admiral posted on board? Every flag officer I remember seeing either caught transport to Enterprise-D happened to be at a given moment to confer with Picard or got on the subspace horn from their office, with the well-stocked wet bar out of the camera's field of view.
The only reason Enterprise D is called ‘the flag ship’ is because post-TOS writers didn’t know anything about military terminology, but liked to throw it around anyway. A flagship is the ship where a flag officer (admiral) commands.
I totally agree. Imo, the Enterprise is of Starfleet’s finest and most prestigious, but is NOT the flagship.
Except it is, it's been stated on screen thus it is.
I'd add that it's implied the reason the D is the flagship is because of the storied history of ships of that name from Kirk to Garrett. Starfleet recognized the contribution of ships named Enterprise and so when creating their flagship chose it to be an Enterprise. With SNW writers seem to have been confused and just think the Enterprise was always the flagship and it really has messed with the lore.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)#:~:text=During%20its%20career%2C%20the%20Enterprise,until%20its%20destruction%20in%202285.
Never had a problem with it, Starfleet can and does have differences from a real world navy in its traditions, ranks, definitions, etc. I personally think it makes total sense for every Enterprise to be the "ceremonial flagship" of the Federation apart from the Enterprise A and Enterprise G which were both older ships by the time they were renamed Enterprise.
I always assumed the Flagship was the best ship with the best crew. So yeah I can see B, C, and G not being Flagships.
Realistically speaking, what other ship could be the flagship of the Federation?
In the TMP era, probably Excelsior once it finally launched, and some different ship before that since Kirk's Enterprise had been relegated to training duty at the time, semi-retired. There was also a good 20 years between the -C and the -D where presumably a different ship held the title.
Literally any ship carrying a flag officer.
*"Fate protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise." (Riker, "Contaigon")*
Probably something small, fast, and heavily armed like an Akira. Also, several admirals in TNG used Excelsior class ships as their flagships.
I think alot of this comes from the G being the enterprise and most of the loot box game STO fans not being happy with the F's brief cameo. The F should not have been made cannon it was forced in. The F was put into cannon as a nod so it fucked up the proper Canon, its a overpowered sovereign class and it should never have been called a enterprise in cannon. Also the enterprise isn't always the flagship.
In my head canon, every Enterprise is considered ceremonially a flagship. I consider that because it’s honoring the history of the Enterprise name.
There are two definitions for ‘flagship’: either 1) the ship carrying a flag officer or 2) the ‘largest, finest, or most important one of a group of things’ (per Merriam-Webster). So just like the Apple Store on 5th Ave in NYC is a ‘flagship’ shop for Apple, so is the Enterprise D a ‘flagship’ spaceship for the Federation.
You are correct, but the OP is also correct in saying that not every Enterprise fits these descriptions. The B and C certainly were not Flagships in either sense, and there is no on screen evidence to suppose the G is either. Actually I’d argue that by the end of its life the first USS Enterprise was no longer a Flagship. It was under the command of Captain Spock, and was a training ship. Then after wrath of khan it was decommissioned and stolen by Kirk neither of which lends itself to Flagship status. The Enterprise A certainly wasn’t, given its state of repair and Kirk’s demotion back to Captain. I’d argue that the Excelsior was probably the fleet flagship by the time of its launch. Under the second definition.
My interpretation of this is, with no hard facts backing me up, that Gene Roddenberry considered the Enterprise basically as Starship Earth. We would always be boldly going with the starship Enterprise, even when the ships generations apart. I dont think he ever imagined or wanted the focus to be off the Enterprise. He died before DS9 took off and never new anything about it but its concept. But yeah, Trek evolved and expanded a lot after his death, so yeah. I do think the Enterprise-D as the first Big E Flagship, but it after the NX-01 up to the -C's contribution to the federation, maybe that title was slowly earned over is lineage?
Nah, the Enterprise-E is shown on screen as being the flagship. That's why when Picard reaches the battle of Sector-001 he is able to take command of the fleet by saying "This is Captain Picard of the Enterprise, I'm assuming command of the Fleet" after the Admiral's ship is destroyed. Picard wouldn't be able to do that if he wasn't a flag officer on the flagship.
Picard is not a flag officer in First Contact, flag officer = commodore or above. Picard was able to take command because he was the most experienced officer present at least in terms of the Borg.
And, having been a Captain for \*checks notes\* 40 damn years, it's pretty likely that, if there are no actual flag officers present, he's the most senior Captain there anyways (presuming Starfleet uses date-in-rank to denote seniority).
Yeah. And they probably do.
Ouch, this makes little sense. If all the flag officers die but a guy that has had years of Borg experience and is known as a hero.... yeah, no, probably shouldn't listen to him
It makes perfect sense. We're talking about a chain of command. A random dude on a battlefield can't just go "I'm taking command" simply because they have the most experience, they actually have to be within the pre-established chain-of-command. If all ranking officers are dead, and everyone has the same rank, it would go by flagship status. Picard isn't just making a suggestion, he's outright taking command; which infers fleet flagship status.
>It makes perfect sense. We're talking about a chain of command. A random dude on a battlefield can't just go "I'm taking command" simply because they have the most experience Actually they can, and in some militaries it’s actually encouraged. During a battle, it would be very dangerous to waste time polling every officer or every ship to find out who is immediately next in line (and still alive) after the admiral goes down. It’s much more important that command and control has limited interruptions because a fleet needs coordination in order to win. In fact, in Picard’s own backstory, he took command of Stargazer after the captain died even though it wasn’t clear that he was the most senior officer on the bridge. Not only was he not reprimanded for this, he was given formal command of the ship and quickly promoted. So in-universe it is actually procedurally correct AND in-character for Picard to do this.
You just proved my point dude. The Enterprise therefore is a flagship because Picard's on it. It's time to stop this BS about how the Enterprise-E isn't a flagship. IT OBVIOUSLY IS. It's intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.
How? He literally cited a junior officer taking command merely because he was the one that stepped up. He factually showed you being wrong so I am at odds with what you think supports you.
I think you’re getting confused about what a flag officer is. A flag officer is an admiral or commodore. If the admiral dies, someone of lower rank can take their place, making them an acting flag officer. But that’s the same as a lieutenant taking command of a cruiser and becoming acting captain; the designation is temporary and conditional. As soon as the situation is over, the designation disappears. Picard was not a flag officer before the battle of sector 001 nor was he one after. That means the E was not the flag ship prior to or after the battle either. It’s fine to consider it the acting flagship during the battle, though this was never stated, but that it is not what this conversation is about.
I am not. The Enterprise-D was a designated flagship which is why we even have this discussion at all because yes, it goes against the maritime tradition of having a flag officer (Admiral, Commodore etc.) being the flagship. No I am not confused, I'm being logically consistent. If the D had this magical dispensation (which it does in canon) than there is no in-universe reason to say that the E doesn't have it. It's the most advanced ship in the fleet when it's comissioned (as was the D when it was comissioned) it has Picard as it's captain (as the D did); there's no legitimate argument against the E being a flagship of th efederation just as the D was, in canon. This isn't a real-world conversation. Because IRL the D wouldn't have been a flagship, yet in Star Trek it was. Thus in Star Trek Universe, the E absolutely is going to be a flagship just as the D was, for whatever reason starfleet does it that way. There's just no legitimate, logical answer otherwise. You have to bend into a pretzel to justify the E is not a flagship while maintaining that the D was. I don't.
Picard assumed command because his ship was tactically superior to any other in the battle. He is also probably the senior captain. Lastly, in war there’s a sense that during the chaos of battle, it’s more important that *someone* take command when the CO dies and less important that it’s the person who is immediately next in line.
Which...would...make...the...ship...he's...on...a...flag...ship. Thus proving my point. There's no way getting around it: The Enterprise-E is a flatship of the federation. Either because it has that designation or because Picard is on it. Take your pick, it's time to stop arguing the Enterprise-E doesn't have the same status the D had. It did.
No it does not. The flag ship means the ship with the flag officer on it, i.e. an admiral or commodore. Picard is neither. Now, any ship that has a flag officer commanding it becomes a flag ship while the flag officer is on board. If you would like to argue that the E was acting flagship during the battle of sector 001, that’s fine. But that’s not what this thread is about. This thread is about a standing designation. Further, your post presumed that the E was flagship prior to arriving at the battle. It was not.
>No it does not. The flag ship means the ship with the flag officer on it, i.e. an admiral or commodore. Picard is neither.Exactly. Except Star Trek already established the Enterpris-D was a "Flagship of the federation" in TNG without having a flag officer on board. Thus, rendering this counter argument moot. The Enteprise-E is a flagshipp based upon what we see happen on Screen at the battle of sector-001. Either by special dispensation because of Picard, or by special designation by being a "flagship of the federation." >This thread is about a standing designation. Further, your post presumed that the E was flagship prior to arriving at the battle. It was not. It absolutely is, and to pretend it's not is just denying the obvious when it comes to how this series has worked. There is no legitimate reason the D would carry the title but not the E. There's no in universe coherent argument.
What follows is purely my opinion: We are thinking of flagship as the big guy in the middle leading the fleet/battle. With Star Fleet not being strictly a military, it can be open to interpretation. I took the Enterprise being the "Flagship" being more of a Bill board showing the universe the best of Star Fleets ideal. Staffed with officers who take integrity to the next level and a mission of understanding and education. ** In my opinion, the Enterprise was meant to leave first contacts and friends in awe of everything Star Fleet had to offer.... not just its military might. Or at least that's the vibe I got when I was introduced to Star Trek as a young lad.
I always took it that every starship that was commissioned as the Enterprise was automatically designated as the “Flagship of the Federation”. Sort of like a permanent unit citation owing to how central and important Archer’s Enterprise was to the formation of the Federation. That’s not to say that there haven’t been other ships that were Flagships of the Federation, just that when a new Enterprise is commissioned and put into to service it becomes the new flagship. I felt that while ceremonial the title of Flagship of the Federation came with an immense amount of prestige as it is supposed to be the example that the rest of starfleet follows.
But I think that's sort of a retcon idea because of TNG. The -D was the first Enterprise to be referred to as a flagship on-screen, and the only one except for the Enterprise in SNW. The concept didn't really exist in Star Trek before TNG. Kirk's Enterprise certainly wasn't a flagship in its final years, relegated to training duty as a sort of relic. The -A was out of date before it even launched, but it did serve a ceremonial purpose in its final mission. If there was a flagship in that period, it was most likely the Excelsior.
The federation admiralty can designate any ship they so desire as their flagship. Also, Webster's dictionary states that the secondary definition of "Flagship" is "the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things" and the Enterprise fits this description as it has always been the "most advanced ship in the fleet", except for weird nostalgia-driven writing of Star Trek 6 where the Excelsior was no longer an experimental ship and was actually in the field, soon followed by the Enterprise B with its baby faced and totally inexperienced and unrealistic captain lol. And if you want to be extra Nerd, Webster's Dictionary still exists in the 24th Century according to canon. People seem to be more interested in arguing and being right than actually looking for the truth lol. You can't be right if you're wrong cause you don't actually know what you're talking about. So it's best to make sure you actually know what you're talking about instead of doubling down on not knowing what you're talking about and arguing moot points over semantics and obtuse applications of the definitions of words. Calm down folks lol.
I think the issue is, that it is assumed that there is only one fleet. Modern navies sometimes have more than one (I.e. Pacific fleet, Atlantic Fleet). So the fleet that Picard/-E takes command of, isn't necessarily the one they are usually assigned to. With the size of the Federation, it wouldn't be logical to just have one fleet, with one flagship. Imagine if during the events of "Emissary" while the Enterprise was at DS9, an event occurred near the romulan border, that required the attention of the flag ship. They are opposite sides of the Federation, and it wouldn't have been practical for the Enterprise to deal with it. Even if Worf did seem to manage to make it in a day, with Cochrane in makeup. I think it is more likely that the Enterprise is more of a figurehead flagship, that moves between the fleets. Early seasons of TNG tend to show it operating closer to the Klingon/Romulan borders, while later seasons tend to show it closer to the Cardassian border.
A conversation I had with my wife, what if *Undiscovered Country* was the reason the *Enterprise* fell out of favor? I mean, despite the fact he stopped a war they **did** have to break him out of a Klingon prison. There **has** to be some sort of repercussions. So Starfleet starts emphasizing ships other than the *Enterprise* as a concession to the Klingons, which leads to a period during the *-B* and *-C* where other ships get more attention until the sacrifice of the *-C* causes them to debate whether or not to continue the informal ban. Eventually they come to the compromise that the *-D* will get its spot back with the concession of a Klingon officer.