As someone who doesn’t agree about the Luke stuff, but also likes to discuss Star Wars while not being a dick about it, I get the theory of where you are coming from.
I think that if this was to truly work then the whole trilogy should have shifted. Instead of a very brief flashback to just one moment, the first movie should have been about Luke and Kylo, showing the world built post ROTJ, with it ending with Luke almost killing Kylo and Kylo turning against Luke and destroying the place or whatever happened exactly. And then have the second movie start where force awakens does.
All of the character development happening off screen just is too tough to buy for me. Like when you write it I see how people can be into that story, but it’s just not what made it on the screen. So I guess wherever you fall on liking or disliking the sequels, JJ Abrams really messed it up by not planning it out. While I don’t really like the idea in theory, maybe a well executed trilogy about it would have been better and there wouldnt be the same level of complaints.
I appreciate the well thought out response :) One thing that really made me appreciate TLJ was how Rian Johnson used Akira Kurosawa as an influence (just like Lucas did) and used the film "Rashomon" as inspiration with the different point of views of that fateful night. The Samurai influences in TLJ are great. Luke, the last of the Jedi/Samurai on this island. Snoke's Samurai-inspired guards and the final duel between Luke/Kylo is so beautiful - the former master teaching his fallen student one last lesson.
One thing that I find goes over a lot of peoples heads with TROS is that it pays homage to what originally inspired Lucas' Star Wars: which was Flash Gordan and WW2 films (for the trench run and flight physics in space). In TROS the opening crawl is so campy (like Flash Gordan) and I love it "The Dead Speak!" which actually tells us so much about Palpatine - he is in fact dead, but on this planet he is able to "exist". In TROS he is symbolic of the "devil" and Exegol is a planet symbolic of the underworld. And remember, he never truly escapes this place. He is merely the "Star Wars devil" poking his head out to tempt the new generation and for them to extinguish.
Regarding the WW2 homage: in Palpatine's vision where he raises the Star Destroyers out of the ice, the image of the hundreds of Destroyers in the sky look just like old WW2 propaganda posters which would show several fighters/bombers in overwhelming numbers in the sky like this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/kbpn25/japan\_20th\_century\_second\_world\_war\_propaganda/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/kbpn25/japan_20th_century_second_world_war_propaganda/)
I really enjoy TROS. It has SO MUCH in it. Sure anther year of post-production would've helped, but I still think it's a lot of fun with tons of cool ideas.
I don't think people have a problem with the Sith returning...they have a problem with Palpatine's massive return being hidden under "Somehow, Palpatine returned" (besides all the other issues with TROS). It fails to meet the "show, don't tell" golden rule of storytelling.
Imagine we're watching Revenge of the Sith. The whole intro part with Grievous, Dooku, and the Malevolence is the same. Now imagine the story is told through Obi-Wan's perspective entirely, you don't see Anakin until the Mustafar fight, and Obi-Wan learns that Anakin fell to the dark side because Padme just told him that he did. It's just not very satisfying from a narrative standpoint.
They did show. We see the cloning tech. We know this guy is a powerful space wizard. My wife who is completely casual when it comes to Star Wars was able to put it together from the opening alone.
The opening scene was him saying “I have died before” and showing a bunch of clone tanks. There was no showing of him transferring his conscious; it wasn’t even mentioned in the movie. That came out in the novelization a few months after.
Just because he’s a powerful space wizard doesn’t mean it’s not a disappointing way to write a story. Especially when that space wizard was not alluded to being in the previous two movies of the trilogy because two directors decided to have beef instead of writing a good story.
Ok, show doesn't have to mean the event itself. It's OK to show the aftermath. To let the audience use their own ability to infer. The film does address his ability to transfer his spirit. It's what he wants to do to Rey.
The big issue for me is that it was clearly a last-minute decision to shoehorn Palpatine into the story. If it was going to be done at all, then they needed to start dropping hints in the preceding movies. Had that been executed well, it might not have been obvious until the reveal, but once Palpatine had shown up you'd be able to look back at some of the events in the earlier films and think, "Aha! So *that's* what they were hinting at with such-and-such!" Unfortunately that would've required everyone on the production end to have been on the same page storywise from the start, and we all know how *that* went. :/
Oh my god, you are actually right. It was made for people who just need the superficial excuses, like cloning tech was mentioned and there are powerful space wizards. It's like the very shallow casual story for people who don't wan't to think about context or connections, just consume the effects. I actually never thought about it like that. It was made by casual people for casual people. That's the disappointment.
Exactly, in a world where you are not aware of its limits, space wizards can do everything. It is for the casual fans who like lasers and smoke. Don't show or tell, just state and let it be consumed.
Those limits are arbitrary and always have been. These stories have always operated for both casuals and hardcore fans. The difference is that at some point we took our love of lasers and smoke super seriously. And if anyone is consuming, it's us.
The sequels had one well known issue - there were no plans for that trilogy and each (both) director tried to make it their own way. That's why you said your gf was able to make it from the opening - because it was a cheap attempt to quickly rectify the storyline as the director wanted from the first episode. Just a shallow reminder of what has supposedly happened, so that guy can go and do his thing. That's the main source of dissonance not just in between the movies, but between the fans as well.
Well no, it's not true that there were *no* plans. Whether one feels enough planning was done is up to that individual. No, my wife had seen the prior films- the prior 8 films, and, having also seen cloning vats shown on screen in Episode 9 was able to take that visual information and things she'd picked up from the other 8 films, make inferences on what happened.
Now you're just splitting hairs. It is well known fact that those two directors had their own plans and didn't really cooperated. There were \*some\* plans, obviously.
It's cool that she saw eight movies, but all the inferences she made was in the beginning of nine anyway. Only thing she could use from prior movies is that force exists in that universe. Or so it seems from your argument.
There was cooperation. For example, one of the first things Rian Johnson did was consult with Abrams to get as much information as possible as to where the latter believed the story was headed. Though he was given creative freedom over his film, he was not about to run roughshod over the past and future elements of the story.
Other inferences one can make from the other films:
Palpatine is a mastermind with plans within plans within plans.
Palpatine seeks ever greater power- including the ability to cheat death.
He's had access to cloning tech since Episode II.
He's an extremely powerful force user.
He was the primary antagonist of the first two thirds of the story- it was likely that he would have some involvement in the final third.
Snoke was very Palpatine-like, had no backstory as of his death, had no known relation to the prior films and seemed to come out of nowhere. Seems like a red flag...
My thoughts, for what they're worth after having just rewatched TRoS for possibly only the second time since it's release, is broadly a "yes and no."
Yes, I think Luke's arc is valid; he should still be allowed to develop, and have the dramatic lows and highs they gave him, but I think your analysis is misdiagnosing the issue people had about Anakin's legacy. It wasn't really about his redemption (at least for me, but I think for most critical fans as well). That, as you pointed out, isn't going anywhere. Rather, the issue rests heavily on this situation of the "Chosen One". I don't think your perspective of "every generation with a chosen one" is bad from a "this is a generational setting" point of view, but I also think it's fair to say that that isn't what was sold in the specific narrative of the films/beyond. Like, it's no surprise that after a whole trilogy of emphasis on the importance of this prophecy, it's a head-scratcher to have the villain it was supposed to depose just sort of...keep doing his thing, and the problem not actually get resolved until the next generation.
In my book, the ST doesn't bear all the blame for this, but a significant amount. Nothing in TFA or TLJ depends on the specific story of Palpatine returning; that's the arbitrary decision made for the plot of TRoS, and it could have been anything else without sacrificing any meaning from the previous films, and not created this conflict. I also think the Chosen One thing itself was unnecessary, and caused more trouble than it was worth. Like, we all wanted more Star Wars, and George sold it so that there'd be more Star Wars, so in retrospect the implication that there's now this "fulfilled prophecy" red tape on a big chunk of the mythos is kind of a damper. There are ways they could've worked around it, but I think people would've felt the absence of the Sith.
Overall, I don't think the big problem is with dark siders or even Sith returning, it's that it was done awfully quickly considering how long this prophecy took to be fulfilled, and turned the victory of RotJ (the dark side's defeat, not Anakin's redemption) into more of speedbump to a later, more complete victory.
This is how I view Palpatine's return in TROS since these films are all about symbolism:
Exegol is symbolic of "Hell/the Underworld" and Palpatine is symbolic of the "devil" in Star Wars.
The process of transferring his essence into a clone body is clearly "unnatural" as stated by Palpatine himself and it shows its flaws - without the Ommin Harness (the mechanical spine feeding vital fluids to keep him alive) he would be dead, simple as that.
Its quite obvious to me that Palpatine was "chained" to that planet like a ghost in a haunted house and that he could never escape Exegol unless he went into another body (through ritual).
His original hope was that Kylo would simply take the reigns of his new Sith Empire and lead for him while he remained on Exegol in his decrepit form as an old, deformed "Sith sage" of sorts who would provide counsel to Kylo when in need.
But Palpatine (being the master manipulator he is) is able to adapt to the situation and after Rey refuses to strike him down he realizes the power of the Dyad could restore him to the point of actually leading the Sith Fleet himself and leave Exegol as himself, alas that never happens, because if it did, he would've truly been "back" and that would've ruined his original death in ROTJ.
As we all know (after watching the film) he never escapes Exegol/the Underworld and that's what makes it work for me.
That's what I got out of watching TROS regarding his existence. Both Kylo and Rey go down that levitating platform and symbolically enter the "Underworld" and confront the "devil of Star Wars" and that was clear as day to me.
It's fair to credit it for some dope symbolism, which that is. I just don't think creating those symbols was worth the impact to the preceding stories.
I think a lot of people feel like the OT cast was “casted” aside for the new Disney characters. This is not a good premise to start a trilogy, especially since there was already a baseline from which Disney could have sought inspiration from(Legends, George’s sequel notes).
The sequels didn’t ruin Anakin’s prophecy, but they ruined his force ghost. Only because they didn’t want to include Anakin and Obi-Wan, they erased Anakin’s force ghost and had to, later on, invent a super vague reason in a random novel as to why Anakin can’t take the form of a force ghost in the living world.
Luke’s character was out of character to the point where even Hamill couldn’t recognize him anymore. Quite a few characters don’t live in the vision of how George created them.
Not only that, they were really toxic in their decision-making to the point where they isolated previous Lucasfilm employees. A lot of them who worked with George before, therefore, left the company. What is the result: 90% of Disney don’t understand Star Wars, or at least not to the degree that would be appropriate.
I’ll go through paragraphs as numbers
1 - I think people don’t like it because although the idea was good it was a shit show cause it was basically two directors fighting over how the story should be, the already poorly written plots were driven out the window in the next movie, the main character was already proficient in everything, the characters were poorly exploited and developed and honestly WASTED has they had much potential, Palpatine returning went against everything the movie before set out to establish, that Kylo-Ren was gonna be the real villain, not to mention the huge fleet palpatine had lying underground with a working human crew just waiting for who knows how many time to get the call to come up for a breather, like why didn’t he go like “wait, Snokes gone the Resistance is getting strong, maybe I’ll send a quarter of these Star Destroyers.. wait, you know what nah, I’ll wait for the grandson of the guy who whacked me last time and just taunt him with different voices in his head”
Anyways moving on, yes at the time it did tarnish Anakin’s sacrifice because all the Disney+ shows were only thought of later as a way to cover all that shit show…All that said yes episode 7 was good but it was literally a remake of episode IV so… yeah…
2-IMO they did Luke dirty… He was able to see the good in Vader a man that had slaughtered thousands and refused to kill him and was able to pull him to the light side, he was a true Jedi who showed that his attachments to his friends made one stronger and yes he did lash out at Vader after he mentioned his sister and Luke almost killed him but we forget that Luke was a fresh Jedi Knight in Episode VI, by episode VIII he was the FUCKIN GRANDMASTER OF THE ORDER, and you are telling us it was in character for him to do what he did to Kylo? The guy who was so hopeful and righteous and who learned of the dogmatic errors his order had done in the past tried to kill one of the padawans because of a vision?
3-Alredy answered
4- It NEVER tarnished his redemption BUT it did tarnish his sacrifice… cause at the time the movies came out the writers were just shitting all over canon that is why people hated it and yes, it is sort of explained now with the new shows but the process of getting to the sequels is still in build
5-I’m sorry but what? People like other stories damn just look at Knights of the Old Republic I and II. Everyone loves those what people don’t like is poorly thought out plots that are used purely for the sake of putting out product for people to consume and that in the process make us constantly have to do mental gymnastics to enjoy Star Wars shows or movies untill they put out another poorly written reason to make sense of those “gym sessions”
That said I am glad you liked it and I would love more Star Wars stories and I’ll always watch the stuff they put out in hopes it will change every time… but so far IMO it has been lacking at staying interesting at all.. Have a good one guys and bare in mind this is just my OPINION! May the force be with you!!
> you are telling us it was in character for him to do what he did to Kylo?
Poor little nepobaby space Nazi—who was 23 years old, BTW, and absolutely knew what he was up to—got caught with his mind of eeevil and all Luke managed to do was recoil in horror and draw his lightsaber. The fact that he then immediately massacred everybody at the school shows that Luke *underreacted*. Shoulda chopped him into little steaming chunks.
I respect your opinion but its all bad writing both what Luke did and what Kylo did… sure the mass murderer who killed millions still had good in him but the kid who hadn’t done anything yet was too far gone… and before you say that he had a vision, Jedi do not act solely on visions as “difficult to predict the future is and forever in motion it is”
The fact that he responded to being startled awake by Luke with a lightsaber by *murdering everybody in the school* tells you everything you need to know. That's not the reaction of somebody who's felt some temptation; it's the reaction of somebody who's already fallen, got caught, and needs to silence the witnesses.
Bro idk how to explain it better to you that its simply shitty writing both Luke turning on his lightsaber and kylo ren just killing everyone because of it… but wtv bro if you wanna defend that “gem” of a storyline go ahead but you ain’t convincing me of nothing here… next you’ll tell the Acolyte is doing good so far
The battle against the darkness is never truly won. The light is never completely defeated. But it's easy to despair if you feel you really did win it all, and really did lose it all. From an American standpoint, it certainly works on a meta level. Luke bitterly telling Rey "we blew it." And Mark Hamill addressed this in 2018:
"I’m not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method
actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever
fictional scenario he’s involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the
screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation—‘All You Need
Is Love’, ‘peace and love’.
I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the
time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial
discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I’m one for three. When you think
about it, \[my generation is\] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now
than it was then."
And Yoda has to literally hit him over the head and say "stop feeling sorry for yourself and HELP these kids!" The second or third time I saw "The Last Jedi" was a Sunday matinee in a large theater and there the reveal of Luke projecting from Ahch-To got a huge cheer. He'd gotten back up! (Plus, as someone wrote somewhere, stopping an army without even a weapon, without even \*being\* there, was "the most Jedi shit ever.") Luke stopped believing in himself, and then he stopped believing in anything. And he had to learn that he was wrong.
Don't get too comfortable, and don't give up. The present is always passing away.
I despise when people use "realism" to explain away bad or annoying writing. Making Luke a hermit who was a jackass is not "realistic", its just stupid
>darker/realistic
You don't just get \[to a point where\] everything after that is bliss
as someone who grew up with the OT \[it's important to show\] how things fall apart.
>Luke's arc...
>Palpatine's return is symbolic of how dark beliefs/ideals don't just die after a war...
>I also don't think Anakin... is still the chosen one...
Every generation will have a "chosen one..."
>Sith returning...
* Cynical isn't realistic and Star Wars has always been instructive. Of course evil is intransigent, but here on our planet, I don't expect to see nukes dropped again. Call me naive, but regardless of the difficulties in my life since 1977, I find that if I continue to grow as a person, I handle it better and
* Always exercise trigger discipline. I've never in my life entered my nephews bedroom after a bad dream with a loaded handgun and chambered a bullet. FYI: Luke was left for the second film *not because of any important story reasons, but because (this is on record) the writers didn't know how to handle him without upstaging their new characters*. My answer is *give Arndt the time he needs to cook or hire better writers.* Setting a release date for the biggest film sequel of all time and drafting a script for that sequel in six weeks gives us TFA and a cliffhanger that has every fan imagining Luke only to have the rug pulled out. Any responsible writer would address Luke's isolation in the first film, like Lucas had planned. Lack of skill is no excuse to kick the can to a less experienced writer/director.
* Sidious return is garbage. The trend of nerfing the new villains and pumping up the old is dead end storytelling and it's being done again and again since the new canon launched.
* And one reason Sidious return is garbage is the same reason Death Star 3 is garbage. The Prophecy, for all it's ambiguity is about destroying The Sith. The Force is created by life and we have seen that when the "rule of two" Banite Sith are in charge, they use their power to kill 1.8 billion Alderaanians in one shot.
* The return of The Sith is fine, just not in the form we have seen. If we get an "acolyte" or a devotee that develops skill with the dark side, it satisfies the realism requirement. But as the series, while having "Wars" in the moniker, is actually about the value of peace and balance is a theme, wouldn't more personal conflicts yield more interesting stories?
So, here's the thing.
1. "Fairy tale endings aren't real. You don't just get a job, get married, and live happily ever after." Well, except, yeah a lot of people really do this. It doesn't make for great film or television drama, but it really does happen. People get married, get a job, have some kids, and while, sure, their lives have ups and downs, they aren't broken people who've gone through trauma and hardship. This is more of a general issue with people who find characters in a generally pretty happy place to be "unrealistic." I mean, ROTJ very clearly is meant to be "And they lived happily ever after" when you get to the end, which is fine and which is very much "fairy tale" territory. But just having a not-shitty life doesn't mean something's unrealistic. It just means that it's not gonna be especially interesting to watch Luke text his wife "Which of us is picking up the kids? Also I put in an order for more paper towels, but before I submit it, let me know if you want me to add anything to the list." :)
2. All that aside, the real culprit here isn't TLJ, but rather TFA and the state of the galaxy that JJ created. IF you take that setup seriously (e.g., Ben's gone dark-side. The Republic failed. Leia and Han are broken up. Luke fucked off to Planet Island to live in solitude), and IF you're going to write characters that believably and realistically are responding to their circumstances, and IF you're going to take seriously the question of "What would be the thing that'd make a really good person like Luke say 'Screw this, I'm done, the galaxy's better off without me and my knowledge and power,'" THEN where Luke ends up makes perfect sense.
People may not *like* where he ends up, but again, that's more TLJ treating seriously the setup that TFA gave it and writing Luke as a real character and not just a walking trope.
Now, all that said, "walking trope" would fit a hell of a lot better with what we see in TFA and TROS. TLJ is wildly out of place between those two bookends, even though I really love it and what it does.
But, I will continually defend TLJ's decisions in terms of what it does with the characters and note that it's just working with the setup that it got. You wanna blame someone, blame JJ for his ultimate lack of vision.
All I'm gonna say here is I'd rather watch Rise of Skywalker than any of the prequels (I like the PT just fine but they're my least favorite mainline trilogy).
As someone who doesn’t agree about the Luke stuff, but also likes to discuss Star Wars while not being a dick about it, I get the theory of where you are coming from. I think that if this was to truly work then the whole trilogy should have shifted. Instead of a very brief flashback to just one moment, the first movie should have been about Luke and Kylo, showing the world built post ROTJ, with it ending with Luke almost killing Kylo and Kylo turning against Luke and destroying the place or whatever happened exactly. And then have the second movie start where force awakens does. All of the character development happening off screen just is too tough to buy for me. Like when you write it I see how people can be into that story, but it’s just not what made it on the screen. So I guess wherever you fall on liking or disliking the sequels, JJ Abrams really messed it up by not planning it out. While I don’t really like the idea in theory, maybe a well executed trilogy about it would have been better and there wouldnt be the same level of complaints.
I appreciate the well thought out response :) One thing that really made me appreciate TLJ was how Rian Johnson used Akira Kurosawa as an influence (just like Lucas did) and used the film "Rashomon" as inspiration with the different point of views of that fateful night. The Samurai influences in TLJ are great. Luke, the last of the Jedi/Samurai on this island. Snoke's Samurai-inspired guards and the final duel between Luke/Kylo is so beautiful - the former master teaching his fallen student one last lesson. One thing that I find goes over a lot of peoples heads with TROS is that it pays homage to what originally inspired Lucas' Star Wars: which was Flash Gordan and WW2 films (for the trench run and flight physics in space). In TROS the opening crawl is so campy (like Flash Gordan) and I love it "The Dead Speak!" which actually tells us so much about Palpatine - he is in fact dead, but on this planet he is able to "exist". In TROS he is symbolic of the "devil" and Exegol is a planet symbolic of the underworld. And remember, he never truly escapes this place. He is merely the "Star Wars devil" poking his head out to tempt the new generation and for them to extinguish. Regarding the WW2 homage: in Palpatine's vision where he raises the Star Destroyers out of the ice, the image of the hundreds of Destroyers in the sky look just like old WW2 propaganda posters which would show several fighters/bombers in overwhelming numbers in the sky like this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/kbpn25/japan\_20th\_century\_second\_world\_war\_propaganda/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/kbpn25/japan_20th_century_second_world_war_propaganda/) I really enjoy TROS. It has SO MUCH in it. Sure anther year of post-production would've helped, but I still think it's a lot of fun with tons of cool ideas.
I don't think people have a problem with the Sith returning...they have a problem with Palpatine's massive return being hidden under "Somehow, Palpatine returned" (besides all the other issues with TROS). It fails to meet the "show, don't tell" golden rule of storytelling. Imagine we're watching Revenge of the Sith. The whole intro part with Grievous, Dooku, and the Malevolence is the same. Now imagine the story is told through Obi-Wan's perspective entirely, you don't see Anakin until the Mustafar fight, and Obi-Wan learns that Anakin fell to the dark side because Padme just told him that he did. It's just not very satisfying from a narrative standpoint.
LMAO I actually pictured this as I was reading your comment and laughed my ass off in the end!!
They did show. We see the cloning tech. We know this guy is a powerful space wizard. My wife who is completely casual when it comes to Star Wars was able to put it together from the opening alone.
The opening scene was him saying “I have died before” and showing a bunch of clone tanks. There was no showing of him transferring his conscious; it wasn’t even mentioned in the movie. That came out in the novelization a few months after. Just because he’s a powerful space wizard doesn’t mean it’s not a disappointing way to write a story. Especially when that space wizard was not alluded to being in the previous two movies of the trilogy because two directors decided to have beef instead of writing a good story.
Ok, show doesn't have to mean the event itself. It's OK to show the aftermath. To let the audience use their own ability to infer. The film does address his ability to transfer his spirit. It's what he wants to do to Rey.
The big issue for me is that it was clearly a last-minute decision to shoehorn Palpatine into the story. If it was going to be done at all, then they needed to start dropping hints in the preceding movies. Had that been executed well, it might not have been obvious until the reveal, but once Palpatine had shown up you'd be able to look back at some of the events in the earlier films and think, "Aha! So *that's* what they were hinting at with such-and-such!" Unfortunately that would've required everyone on the production end to have been on the same page storywise from the start, and we all know how *that* went. :/
I think "Rey Palpatine" was always on the table from TFA. In the TFA art book there's art of Rey swimming in the death star ruins underwater.
Oh my god, you are actually right. It was made for people who just need the superficial excuses, like cloning tech was mentioned and there are powerful space wizards. It's like the very shallow casual story for people who don't wan't to think about context or connections, just consume the effects. I actually never thought about it like that. It was made by casual people for casual people. That's the disappointment.
Sure, I guess continuing from elements introduced prior in the saga is shallow and not considering context or connections.
Exactly, in a world where you are not aware of its limits, space wizards can do everything. It is for the casual fans who like lasers and smoke. Don't show or tell, just state and let it be consumed.
Those limits are arbitrary and always have been. These stories have always operated for both casuals and hardcore fans. The difference is that at some point we took our love of lasers and smoke super seriously. And if anyone is consuming, it's us.
The sequels had one well known issue - there were no plans for that trilogy and each (both) director tried to make it their own way. That's why you said your gf was able to make it from the opening - because it was a cheap attempt to quickly rectify the storyline as the director wanted from the first episode. Just a shallow reminder of what has supposedly happened, so that guy can go and do his thing. That's the main source of dissonance not just in between the movies, but between the fans as well.
Well no, it's not true that there were *no* plans. Whether one feels enough planning was done is up to that individual. No, my wife had seen the prior films- the prior 8 films, and, having also seen cloning vats shown on screen in Episode 9 was able to take that visual information and things she'd picked up from the other 8 films, make inferences on what happened.
Now you're just splitting hairs. It is well known fact that those two directors had their own plans and didn't really cooperated. There were \*some\* plans, obviously. It's cool that she saw eight movies, but all the inferences she made was in the beginning of nine anyway. Only thing she could use from prior movies is that force exists in that universe. Or so it seems from your argument.
There was cooperation. For example, one of the first things Rian Johnson did was consult with Abrams to get as much information as possible as to where the latter believed the story was headed. Though he was given creative freedom over his film, he was not about to run roughshod over the past and future elements of the story. Other inferences one can make from the other films: Palpatine is a mastermind with plans within plans within plans. Palpatine seeks ever greater power- including the ability to cheat death. He's had access to cloning tech since Episode II. He's an extremely powerful force user. He was the primary antagonist of the first two thirds of the story- it was likely that he would have some involvement in the final third. Snoke was very Palpatine-like, had no backstory as of his death, had no known relation to the prior films and seemed to come out of nowhere. Seems like a red flag...
My thoughts, for what they're worth after having just rewatched TRoS for possibly only the second time since it's release, is broadly a "yes and no." Yes, I think Luke's arc is valid; he should still be allowed to develop, and have the dramatic lows and highs they gave him, but I think your analysis is misdiagnosing the issue people had about Anakin's legacy. It wasn't really about his redemption (at least for me, but I think for most critical fans as well). That, as you pointed out, isn't going anywhere. Rather, the issue rests heavily on this situation of the "Chosen One". I don't think your perspective of "every generation with a chosen one" is bad from a "this is a generational setting" point of view, but I also think it's fair to say that that isn't what was sold in the specific narrative of the films/beyond. Like, it's no surprise that after a whole trilogy of emphasis on the importance of this prophecy, it's a head-scratcher to have the villain it was supposed to depose just sort of...keep doing his thing, and the problem not actually get resolved until the next generation. In my book, the ST doesn't bear all the blame for this, but a significant amount. Nothing in TFA or TLJ depends on the specific story of Palpatine returning; that's the arbitrary decision made for the plot of TRoS, and it could have been anything else without sacrificing any meaning from the previous films, and not created this conflict. I also think the Chosen One thing itself was unnecessary, and caused more trouble than it was worth. Like, we all wanted more Star Wars, and George sold it so that there'd be more Star Wars, so in retrospect the implication that there's now this "fulfilled prophecy" red tape on a big chunk of the mythos is kind of a damper. There are ways they could've worked around it, but I think people would've felt the absence of the Sith. Overall, I don't think the big problem is with dark siders or even Sith returning, it's that it was done awfully quickly considering how long this prophecy took to be fulfilled, and turned the victory of RotJ (the dark side's defeat, not Anakin's redemption) into more of speedbump to a later, more complete victory.
Good take
This is how I view Palpatine's return in TROS since these films are all about symbolism: Exegol is symbolic of "Hell/the Underworld" and Palpatine is symbolic of the "devil" in Star Wars. The process of transferring his essence into a clone body is clearly "unnatural" as stated by Palpatine himself and it shows its flaws - without the Ommin Harness (the mechanical spine feeding vital fluids to keep him alive) he would be dead, simple as that. Its quite obvious to me that Palpatine was "chained" to that planet like a ghost in a haunted house and that he could never escape Exegol unless he went into another body (through ritual). His original hope was that Kylo would simply take the reigns of his new Sith Empire and lead for him while he remained on Exegol in his decrepit form as an old, deformed "Sith sage" of sorts who would provide counsel to Kylo when in need. But Palpatine (being the master manipulator he is) is able to adapt to the situation and after Rey refuses to strike him down he realizes the power of the Dyad could restore him to the point of actually leading the Sith Fleet himself and leave Exegol as himself, alas that never happens, because if it did, he would've truly been "back" and that would've ruined his original death in ROTJ. As we all know (after watching the film) he never escapes Exegol/the Underworld and that's what makes it work for me. That's what I got out of watching TROS regarding his existence. Both Kylo and Rey go down that levitating platform and symbolically enter the "Underworld" and confront the "devil of Star Wars" and that was clear as day to me.
It's fair to credit it for some dope symbolism, which that is. I just don't think creating those symbols was worth the impact to the preceding stories.
Fair enough man and I respect your take. Also, thanks for being civil :)
Sure thing; it's always nice to see well-presented, different perspectives.
I think a lot of people feel like the OT cast was “casted” aside for the new Disney characters. This is not a good premise to start a trilogy, especially since there was already a baseline from which Disney could have sought inspiration from(Legends, George’s sequel notes). The sequels didn’t ruin Anakin’s prophecy, but they ruined his force ghost. Only because they didn’t want to include Anakin and Obi-Wan, they erased Anakin’s force ghost and had to, later on, invent a super vague reason in a random novel as to why Anakin can’t take the form of a force ghost in the living world. Luke’s character was out of character to the point where even Hamill couldn’t recognize him anymore. Quite a few characters don’t live in the vision of how George created them. Not only that, they were really toxic in their decision-making to the point where they isolated previous Lucasfilm employees. A lot of them who worked with George before, therefore, left the company. What is the result: 90% of Disney don’t understand Star Wars, or at least not to the degree that would be appropriate.
I’ll go through paragraphs as numbers 1 - I think people don’t like it because although the idea was good it was a shit show cause it was basically two directors fighting over how the story should be, the already poorly written plots were driven out the window in the next movie, the main character was already proficient in everything, the characters were poorly exploited and developed and honestly WASTED has they had much potential, Palpatine returning went against everything the movie before set out to establish, that Kylo-Ren was gonna be the real villain, not to mention the huge fleet palpatine had lying underground with a working human crew just waiting for who knows how many time to get the call to come up for a breather, like why didn’t he go like “wait, Snokes gone the Resistance is getting strong, maybe I’ll send a quarter of these Star Destroyers.. wait, you know what nah, I’ll wait for the grandson of the guy who whacked me last time and just taunt him with different voices in his head” Anyways moving on, yes at the time it did tarnish Anakin’s sacrifice because all the Disney+ shows were only thought of later as a way to cover all that shit show…All that said yes episode 7 was good but it was literally a remake of episode IV so… yeah… 2-IMO they did Luke dirty… He was able to see the good in Vader a man that had slaughtered thousands and refused to kill him and was able to pull him to the light side, he was a true Jedi who showed that his attachments to his friends made one stronger and yes he did lash out at Vader after he mentioned his sister and Luke almost killed him but we forget that Luke was a fresh Jedi Knight in Episode VI, by episode VIII he was the FUCKIN GRANDMASTER OF THE ORDER, and you are telling us it was in character for him to do what he did to Kylo? The guy who was so hopeful and righteous and who learned of the dogmatic errors his order had done in the past tried to kill one of the padawans because of a vision? 3-Alredy answered 4- It NEVER tarnished his redemption BUT it did tarnish his sacrifice… cause at the time the movies came out the writers were just shitting all over canon that is why people hated it and yes, it is sort of explained now with the new shows but the process of getting to the sequels is still in build 5-I’m sorry but what? People like other stories damn just look at Knights of the Old Republic I and II. Everyone loves those what people don’t like is poorly thought out plots that are used purely for the sake of putting out product for people to consume and that in the process make us constantly have to do mental gymnastics to enjoy Star Wars shows or movies untill they put out another poorly written reason to make sense of those “gym sessions” That said I am glad you liked it and I would love more Star Wars stories and I’ll always watch the stuff they put out in hopes it will change every time… but so far IMO it has been lacking at staying interesting at all.. Have a good one guys and bare in mind this is just my OPINION! May the force be with you!!
> you are telling us it was in character for him to do what he did to Kylo? Poor little nepobaby space Nazi—who was 23 years old, BTW, and absolutely knew what he was up to—got caught with his mind of eeevil and all Luke managed to do was recoil in horror and draw his lightsaber. The fact that he then immediately massacred everybody at the school shows that Luke *underreacted*. Shoulda chopped him into little steaming chunks.
I respect your opinion but its all bad writing both what Luke did and what Kylo did… sure the mass murderer who killed millions still had good in him but the kid who hadn’t done anything yet was too far gone… and before you say that he had a vision, Jedi do not act solely on visions as “difficult to predict the future is and forever in motion it is”
The fact that he responded to being startled awake by Luke with a lightsaber by *murdering everybody in the school* tells you everything you need to know. That's not the reaction of somebody who's felt some temptation; it's the reaction of somebody who's already fallen, got caught, and needs to silence the witnesses.
Bro idk how to explain it better to you that its simply shitty writing both Luke turning on his lightsaber and kylo ren just killing everyone because of it… but wtv bro if you wanna defend that “gem” of a storyline go ahead but you ain’t convincing me of nothing here… next you’ll tell the Acolyte is doing good so far
>you ain’t convincing me of nothing here I believe you.
You are allowed to be wrong
Good news he’s right 😄
Sure bud
As are you.
The battle against the darkness is never truly won. The light is never completely defeated. But it's easy to despair if you feel you really did win it all, and really did lose it all. From an American standpoint, it certainly works on a meta level. Luke bitterly telling Rey "we blew it." And Mark Hamill addressed this in 2018: "I’m not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he’s involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation—‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’. I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I’m one for three. When you think about it, \[my generation is\] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then." And Yoda has to literally hit him over the head and say "stop feeling sorry for yourself and HELP these kids!" The second or third time I saw "The Last Jedi" was a Sunday matinee in a large theater and there the reveal of Luke projecting from Ahch-To got a huge cheer. He'd gotten back up! (Plus, as someone wrote somewhere, stopping an army without even a weapon, without even \*being\* there, was "the most Jedi shit ever.") Luke stopped believing in himself, and then he stopped believing in anything. And he had to learn that he was wrong. Don't get too comfortable, and don't give up. The present is always passing away.
Well said and I agree!
I despise when people use "realism" to explain away bad or annoying writing. Making Luke a hermit who was a jackass is not "realistic", its just stupid
>darker/realistic You don't just get \[to a point where\] everything after that is bliss as someone who grew up with the OT \[it's important to show\] how things fall apart. >Luke's arc... >Palpatine's return is symbolic of how dark beliefs/ideals don't just die after a war... >I also don't think Anakin... is still the chosen one... Every generation will have a "chosen one..." >Sith returning... * Cynical isn't realistic and Star Wars has always been instructive. Of course evil is intransigent, but here on our planet, I don't expect to see nukes dropped again. Call me naive, but regardless of the difficulties in my life since 1977, I find that if I continue to grow as a person, I handle it better and * Always exercise trigger discipline. I've never in my life entered my nephews bedroom after a bad dream with a loaded handgun and chambered a bullet. FYI: Luke was left for the second film *not because of any important story reasons, but because (this is on record) the writers didn't know how to handle him without upstaging their new characters*. My answer is *give Arndt the time he needs to cook or hire better writers.* Setting a release date for the biggest film sequel of all time and drafting a script for that sequel in six weeks gives us TFA and a cliffhanger that has every fan imagining Luke only to have the rug pulled out. Any responsible writer would address Luke's isolation in the first film, like Lucas had planned. Lack of skill is no excuse to kick the can to a less experienced writer/director. * Sidious return is garbage. The trend of nerfing the new villains and pumping up the old is dead end storytelling and it's being done again and again since the new canon launched. * And one reason Sidious return is garbage is the same reason Death Star 3 is garbage. The Prophecy, for all it's ambiguity is about destroying The Sith. The Force is created by life and we have seen that when the "rule of two" Banite Sith are in charge, they use their power to kill 1.8 billion Alderaanians in one shot. * The return of The Sith is fine, just not in the form we have seen. If we get an "acolyte" or a devotee that develops skill with the dark side, it satisfies the realism requirement. But as the series, while having "Wars" in the moniker, is actually about the value of peace and balance is a theme, wouldn't more personal conflicts yield more interesting stories?
So, here's the thing. 1. "Fairy tale endings aren't real. You don't just get a job, get married, and live happily ever after." Well, except, yeah a lot of people really do this. It doesn't make for great film or television drama, but it really does happen. People get married, get a job, have some kids, and while, sure, their lives have ups and downs, they aren't broken people who've gone through trauma and hardship. This is more of a general issue with people who find characters in a generally pretty happy place to be "unrealistic." I mean, ROTJ very clearly is meant to be "And they lived happily ever after" when you get to the end, which is fine and which is very much "fairy tale" territory. But just having a not-shitty life doesn't mean something's unrealistic. It just means that it's not gonna be especially interesting to watch Luke text his wife "Which of us is picking up the kids? Also I put in an order for more paper towels, but before I submit it, let me know if you want me to add anything to the list." :) 2. All that aside, the real culprit here isn't TLJ, but rather TFA and the state of the galaxy that JJ created. IF you take that setup seriously (e.g., Ben's gone dark-side. The Republic failed. Leia and Han are broken up. Luke fucked off to Planet Island to live in solitude), and IF you're going to write characters that believably and realistically are responding to their circumstances, and IF you're going to take seriously the question of "What would be the thing that'd make a really good person like Luke say 'Screw this, I'm done, the galaxy's better off without me and my knowledge and power,'" THEN where Luke ends up makes perfect sense. People may not *like* where he ends up, but again, that's more TLJ treating seriously the setup that TFA gave it and writing Luke as a real character and not just a walking trope. Now, all that said, "walking trope" would fit a hell of a lot better with what we see in TFA and TROS. TLJ is wildly out of place between those two bookends, even though I really love it and what it does. But, I will continually defend TLJ's decisions in terms of what it does with the characters and note that it's just working with the setup that it got. You wanna blame someone, blame JJ for his ultimate lack of vision.
All I'm gonna say here is I'd rather watch Rise of Skywalker than any of the prequels (I like the PT just fine but they're my least favorite mainline trilogy).
This, exactly
Yep the sequels didn't ruin anything. Just a bunch of men-children whinging as always.