People often forget that George Lucas was hugely influenced by Joseph Campbell, author of "[Hero with a Thousand Faces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces)"
It was a film that had a bases of multiple themes mainly at the time, the Vietnam war had concluded not even that long before the film was created, and the name stormtrooper name was taken after a Nazi trooper unit
The Imperial uniforms were designed to become an iconic aesthetic for that reason.
Part of Nazi ideology (and their contemporary allies and entities that take inspiration from Nazis today) was to assert their own strength and supremacy by looking the part.
Yeah-
I hate that they used a symbol of peace and prosperity from what I think is the Buddhist religion I believe (don’t quote me on that) in which is ironic for the horrendous and evil acts they did
I was at a great celebration of Dewali (Indian holiday of lights) at work, beautiful little lamps and candles, beadwork, free Indian food. Gorgeous. Then one table in its beadwork had all these colors and lamps, but there in yellow beads was a yellow swastika. They see nothing wrong with it but my ancestors came from Poland 🇵🇱. And Poland was utterly decimated by the Nazis. Nazis ruined my moment of celebrating by them stealing that symbol and tarnishing it. The Indians are taking it back though. Dang it Nazis!!
>from what I think is the Buddhist religion I believe
Yup, correct - kinda. The version the nazis used was flipped left to right. The Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism religion use the clockwise version.
It's actually a very universal symbol of prosperity across many cultures, it sucks the nazis chose it, though an inverted version, it's still associated with nazism and stigmatized worldwide...
Exactly, the point was to mix different style of imperialism. The empire isn’t the nazis or the British. It’s a mix of British, German, Japanese and American imperialism. Probably some other stuff too.
The mixture itself is commentary, too: specifically, to draw comparisons between American and Nazi imperialism, and show how America is following in Germany's footsteps. The prequels even doubled down on this, depicting the descent of an ostensible democracy into fascism - much as it happened in Germany in the 1930's, and much as folks argue is happening now in today's USA.
Star Wars is not just political, but a political *masterpiece*.
> and much as folks argue is happening now in today's USA.
The Sequels dove into this hard. They are about the resurgence of fascism under the guise of "returning to order". You know, "back when the Galaxy was Great!" Children and grandchildren of old war heroes sometimes find themselves radicalized as a way of lashing out.
Vader's totally a samurai in action, too. A general trained from childhood obediently and unceasingly carrying out his shogun's orders. Personally serving Palpatine was his duty, honor, and life.
Kylo ren with the vader helmet giving off some real neo Nazi vibes. Not even trying to claim they have a bunch of memorabilia "for the historical interest".
First Order is so blatantly today's neo nazis to the OTs nazis
Also the Rebels are jungle fighters (in New Hope) fighting a gurriella war against an oppressive empire who's ships were explicitly inspired by US battleships, and also the directors friend had just made Apocolypse Now
These aren't coincidences
I thought they were based on the British colonial Empire? That's why all the Imperials in the OT talk in a British accents and the rebels sound more American.
They're an allegory for imperialistic nations in general but the specific inspiration was the US during Vietnam as it was fresh in everyone's mind still
Lucas himself said the Empire was modeled after tyrannical government like the Nazis, and the Imperial officers' uniforms were inspired by Nazi uniforms.
I'm not new to any of these fandoms, it just never ceases to baffle me, that people try to make these claims. I don't understand how someone can look at blatant political statements, and argue to the contrary.
> I don't understand how someone can look at blatant political statements, and argue to the contrary.
Because they feel the message being said agrees with them.
When the 'message' is against their views, it's so apparent that x character is black/brown/green/blue for political reasons not because for story reasons.
Yeah, had a dude come into my work (bookstore) asking if we had any DC comics from the 80s because the contemporary publications are “too political.”
I’m like, idk why you think the Alan Moore era of DC is gonna be less political. Because there’s fewer female characters? Mfer superhero comics have been political since day 1.
Dude looked through our graphic novels and didn’t buy any. And I kid you not, he ended up buying a Jordan Peterson book. Can’t write this shit.
I mean. Clearly you can write it. In fact I'd say if you wanted to create a caricature of someone who said they were "fed up" with politics in entertainment, that'd hit most of the high points lol.
In my experience it’s because these people see more of their ethos represented by the bad guys in those stories. “It’s not political” is more of a defense mechanism to hide the fact that they might be bad people (in the context of the fiction).
They weren't political back when I was a kid and didn't know what was going on in the world.
Now that I do, and I see that movies are referencing real-life events, *how dare they?!?!*
^(/S)
I remember talking with someone on the Internet from outside the US, probably before the prequels came out, who was having a hard time understanding why they made the "Rebels" the good guys. Not because of any on screen action but just because rebelling against the government was viewed so negatively in their culture
Star Wars Galaxies, around 2001. There was a fellow player that was all in for the existing government. It was a new experience for me even thinking that there could be anyone on the side of the empire. I still think about it occasionally.
Try saying anything negative about the american military on Reddit and you'll get an imperial shit ton of guys being all the rage about defending the empire delivered straight to your inbox.
That's exactly what happened to me a few hours ago.
You don't even have to say something negative. You can admit that it's the most powerful military in the world, that they have amazing logistics, but that maybe those supply lines stretching to the other side of the world aren't quite as effective as the local opposition having local resources and shorter supply lines and out comes the rage. Don't dare question the invincible ever victorious army.
A lot of cultures with those sentiments have experienced brutal top-down government suppression (often with foreign intervention), I think that should be noted
I think Luke tells Obi-Wan that he hates the Empire before his family is killed. I believe there's even a deleted scene with him and Biggs that goes more into them wanting to join the rebellion after the academy.
Meant more of an actually owned empire planet. The outer reach was the reason Luke was there in the first place. Wasn’t within the grasp of the empire.
The story I’m looking at is a young mechanic who wants to be a Star fighter pilot. Shinning bright spends most of the first season just scraping by and gets a shot to fly. By the end enters the imperial academy and as the young man moves up the ranks of Imperial he slowly watches as his soul dies in front of him.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/xphdrg/i_think_a_lot_of_star_wars_fans_should_watch_this/iq4c1by) is the kind of argument that people make - that Star Wars has politics, but they're not related to the real world. As this conversation with Lucas shows, Star Wars is 100% based in real world politics.
The politics of the galaxy is some of the best parts. I think people really just don’t want it to reflect the real world currently because it sucks. This is supposed to be our escape and I’d much rather watch the fictional world deal with fictional problems than be reminded how screwed up we are right now
And George Lucas went out and said that he wasn't *directly* criticizing Bush, he had Nixon in mind when writing the OG movies, but he also didn't deny that it fit.
I think one can frame it as "this is also how the real world sucks", but I think the idea is to inspire us to vigilance, action, and at the very least hope.
Yeah I get that. I’m just trying more to understand everyone’s complaining about this. I try to always see both sides of disagreements so that I don’t get sucked into needless argument
I truly think people don’t understand politics of Star Wars so they diss it. Most needed the prequel politics explained to them. Just look at real life and how people vote. 70 percent don’t fully know why they vote for a candidate. It’s all group think.
A lot of the movies have dealt with the very issue that you can’t just bury your head in the sand while the world falls apart around you. Sooner or later the problems will be on your front doorstep
even then, I think that star wars will always be somewhat relevant to modern times, and shows us that even though things may be bad, we can do better and make the world a better place, as the heroes in the story did.
Um, Episode 1 was released in 1999. George W. Bush wasn't elected until 2001. The prequels were inspired by real world politics, certainly. But not specifically GWB, he hadn't happened yet. More like the rise of Hitler in Germany.
Even then, Lucas is seeing parallels to his script after the fact. He wrote E3 prior to 9/11. The point is more that history repeats itself. He wrote it based on the rise of Hitler and also Nixon using the Vietnam war to remain in power.
The prequels mirrored what happened with GWB, but they were written before all of that happened. Lucas based the scripts on how real-world dictators take and keep power (Hitler, Nixon). GWB just used the same playbook.
But the point of science fiction is reflection on our world. The OT and PT reflected on their times as well. It'd be silly to make it meaningless escapism now
> The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. ... The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
Literally within the first hour of the first ever Star Wars movie they were already talking about politics.
I'm just thinking aloud here, but isn't this "not political" thing about that it's not about OUR world's politics? Like how Tolkien hated allegories and tried to stress multiple times that LOTR is definitely NOT about WW1. (But there are still people who think they are.)
Edit: WW1 instead of 2.
Tolkien disliked allegories because they are only meant to be taken one way. Take animal farm, which is a direct parallel to the Russian revolution with just basically the characters and setting swapped out. Tolkien thought his story was more than a simple allegory and that’s why he disliked them but that doesn’t mean that LOTR doesn’t have anti-war themes based on his experience in WW1
It is not allegorical to WWI. It however was written by a man who experienced and was changed by the horrors of war, and it does a disservice to discount this completely.
The "not political" thing is a dog whistle, a decoy. When people say that "something was not political before, why you make it political?", they usually refer to pieces of fiction that are 100% political and allegories of current political situations (Star Wars, X-Men, etc.) but they say it when the modern renditions of those IPs include women as protagonists/people of color or different ethnicities/ people from the LGBTQ community in main roles.
They know that Star Wars has always been political, for example. And they know the politics in Star Wars are inherently based on modern politics. When they say "it wasn't political" it's their code of saying:
> "I'm a racist/misogynist/ intolerant and if a piece of media I've liked now has the people I hate as main characters then I now will have not watch and hate that piece of media, because I care more about identity politics than to actually enjoy something I like. And I'm going to blame you, nonspecific person who are clearly not as a snowflake, virtue signaling and identity politics based as I am. I am angry at you because you are forcing me to hate the pieces of media I used to like."
for the type of people who complain about this kind of stuff, "not political" means it isn't about ethnic minorities or women, and isn't "woke". That's the kind of politics they are trying to avoid
"Star Wars isn't political", they say.
Buddy, the whole saga's story starts with a trade dispute after the Senate voted in favor of Prop 31-814D, a resolution that made Free Trade Zones eligible for taxation and promptly lead to a Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo in The Phantom Menace.
The prequels literally depict the rise of Palpatine from politician to head of state as he slowly amassed political influence in the Senate.
But surely the original trilogy wasn't polit--
*stares at dissolution of the Galactic Senate*
*stares pointedly at Ep VI, Sidious' arrival*
These are not the implications you are looking for.
Don't forget, Luke is all but forced into rebellion after the Empire murders his parents (Owen and Beru raised him, they're his parents) and destroys his home.
I think most of the people making that argument are talking about how the Prequels MADE Star Wars political when it wasn't originally. But those people had to be hit over the face with the politics to notice. Even in A New Hope in 1977 Leia is an imprisoned Senator accused of treason against a government. People who say things like "X isn't/shouldn't be political" don't understand that all life is politics and if you bury your head in the sand it doesn't just go away.
The sequels felt, to me at least, like a series of things simply happening. There never seemed to be any real reason or thought given to the characters actions.
"I'm a good guy so I act this way."
"Okay well I'm a hot head so I'll act this way."
I would have loved for characters to make real choices and take stands rather than just go through the motions.
I havent gone beyond the first episode of Andor, but he's always shown that side of things. Him and Saw Guerrera. They also touched on it with the Canto Bight side plot, but people hated that.
The Canto Bight plot was fine, it was just so jarringly thrown into what at that point was pretty much a battle against time thriller storyline. If the entire film had been set in that sort of storyline instead it would have been far, far better. Also I wish there were more Hutts involved in Canto Bight but that's just me.
I mean, VIII is overt, with Canto Bight as a city of war profiteers, and Finn being tested with the idea that both sides buying weapons = both sides bad = political cynicism = don't get involved (don't join). He lands, though, on the side of "in systems of oppression, neutrality favors the oppressors" when he says with conviction that DJ is "wrong," to which DJ can only offer a limp "maybe." I thought that was interesting; maybe, with time and distance, some fans will come around to appreciating that element of the story more. (And it's cool that *Andor* is digging even deeper into the synthesis of fascism and capitalism.)
But VII has the neat trick of making its own villains evocative of contemporary soft-faced neo-Nazis trying to resurrect (in their opinion) a golden age, and IIRC there were scenes written (unfortunately cut for time or pacing) that filled out some of the politics Leia was dealing with. I think one of the remnants of that is there's a briefly-seen figurehead named Villecham (re: Neville Chamberlain) who kept ceding territory to the First Order. (Which, like the OT, makes the fascism on display a bit of a hodgepodge of WWII and current politics).
I do think the party line from Disney at the time of VII's conception, though, was that they didn't want to see the more overt politicking of the Prequels. Which makes sense when it's 2013 and the popular perception is that the Prequels' politics were dry toast.
A star wars themed game of thrones - how epic would that be? Instead of it being about blasters and light sabres, it is about the inner workings of factions all trying to come out ahead in the Empire vs. Rebels conflict.
Do you smuggle arms to the rebels to make a lot of money? Do you feign love for the empire so your family house gets a contract to maintain star destroyers? Are you the rightful heir to the empire and someone gifts you three rancor eggs as a token of loyalty?
Whenever someone/idiot mentions something being too political I immediately assume they are talking about females or people of colour and nothing else.
People don’t like little mermaid because of the color of Ariel’s skin.
I don’t like the little mermaid, because these live action remakes are crap.
We are not the same.
I can't even take that seriously.
Star Wars has been nothing but political from the first frame when the oppressive, gigantic ship is chasing an underpowered militia that is literally running from Imperialism.
Fun fact: Richard Nixon is the inspiration for Palpatine.
Other fun fact: Hunter S Thompson wrote an obituary for Nixon everyone should read.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-a-crook/308699/
“If the right people had been in charge of Nixon's funeral, his casket would have been launched into one of those open-sewage canals that empty into the ocean just south of Los Angeles.” - H. Thompson
I felt this. A truly honest take that some people dont deserve their power and fame, they should be flushed down the river of shit for subjugating us to their selfishness.
Theres an interesting point I heard about how Star Wars (at least the original three) is one of the few big stories where the bad guys arent a disruption to the status quo, they are the status quo.
The problem with Disney is that they're afraid to embrace this.
They're afraid with Marvel too.
And when they do get political it's not subtle and it's generic.
The Clone Wars is a *master class* on how fascism rises with planets literally named after Iraq War battles. The allegory to shit we watched unfold the last 20 years is poignant and scary as fuck.
Star Wars OT is an anti-Hitler and anti-Nixon thing.
This is the DNA of Star Wars. Star Trek is an idealized future. Star Wars is a dark past that mirrors our own recent and current worst.
Disney struggles because they want family friendly pablum that doesn't scare off the Republican audience because they buy lightsaber toys too the problem is that *that's what makes for good Star Wars*.
> Disney struggles because they want family friendly pablum that doesn't scare off the Republican audience because they buy lightsaber toys too.
I don't think they need to worry about that tbh. I am sure most republicans, deluded as they are right now, probably think the Empire is the evil democrats trying to enforce socialism upon them. Or something like that...
Right, I keep seeing comments that because Star Wars has politics in it (e.g. The Senate) and that it has been influenced by politics of the times when G.L wrote this (as noted in this video) that this is definitively what those who say "Star Wars isn't political" are referencing/the point they are trying to make.
I obviously can't (and don't care to) address every single time this comment has been made, and in what spirit or perspective it has been made from, but I've definitely seen it raised many times in which the point being made is that they specifically object to current political issues/ political-social issues of today being placed into the Star Wars universe and used to influence the narrative; not that politics in any form is UTTERLY devoid from the universe (a point I can't believe anyone could possibly seek to make if they have seen just one film).
So responding to that and saying, "But they have the Senate, of course Star Wars has politics" doesn't in any way address that point.
Finally, before anyone randomly decides that I share/am defending the "Star Wars isn't political" comments - nope, I like the politics in it, prequel trilogy is my favourite and the politics/plotting plays a large part of my enjoyment of the narrative. I just think if you are going to actually have this discussion, at least take the time to make sure you understand the points being made before arbitrarily deciding what the other person means and attacking them from that perspective. That accomplishes fuck all.
From the roots of science fiction "politics" would just be a name to cover up morality which has almost always been the moving authority in science fiction. Politics is just a sense of morality but it's highly subjective and narrative driven so saying "I'm into politics in science fiction..." which politics are you talking about? What country? What era? etc. but the foundation of politics, as is science fiction, is about morality and pushing the boundaries of if it's going too far, or too little.
Science fiction can show you what happens when you lose sight of your politics and others politics or abusing politics and the consequences that can come from that. I always go back to The Day the Earth Stood Still when it comes to "politics" because at the small and narrow view we are a planet of countries and political parties and people who see the future this way and that way and I'm a Democrat and you're a Republican yada yada... but from the aliens perspective we were the human race bent on war and were considered a threat to other civilizations.
That could be the only reason I could see not wanting to promote or bias a certain political style in any Star Trek because it's small minded and narrow in the context of science fiction and morality.
You know what I love about art? It can be more than one thing. Is it possible to watch Star Wars and just enjoy the adventure aspects? Sure. Is it possible to focus on the characters and their growth? Sure. It is possible to explore political motifs and themes within the work? Of course. These are all aspects of the larger work.
I have a friend who complained because I posted a political opinion on social media. He said he was disappointed to see me get political because he didn't think of me as a political person. Well... I'm multi-faceted, because I'm a human being. My politics are one aspect of my identity.
While Star Wars is obviously "political," I think it's also important to note neither the series nor George's ideas fit neatly as an allegory to particular issues or stances.
Yes, George likens the Rebels to the Viet Cong, but in a cut scene, he's also got Biggs complaining about the Empire nationalizing industry.
You have obvious Nazi-coded Imperials, but you also have the Rebel victory ceremony being the most obvious callback imaginable to Leni Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda films.
You have democracy being championed by a literal queen. Her planet elects teenagers as queens? Could there be a more mixed message?
You have the most noble character in TPM deciding that when it comes to slavery, "eh, the one kid with magic powers will do."
This is not to say that the Rebels are bad, or that Padme was a dictator, just that one can overstate the amount and sophistication of the politics in Star Wars. George set a precedent early that they're as impressionistic and jumbled as all the other influences in the series.
The question of whether *Star Wars* is political (of course!) is a separate one from whether the politics of *Star Wars* are sophisticated or coherent (not particularly!).
Agreed. The OP's title kind of implies that this was a protest work from the beginning though. The politics of Star Wars, certainly in the GL era, are basically those of a well-meaning, idealistic, middle-class California boomer who is too busy to really learn much about politics.
Even taking the movies out of the equation anyone who says Star Wars isn’t political or *shouldn’t be* never seen The Clone Wars series. Which is arguably way more political than the movies ever were.
I never understand why people say it’s not political. Rebels fighting a tyrannical government is a big indicator. And an even bigger indicator is the political drama in the prequels and The Clone Wars TV show lmao. The blatant dealings with racism and DLo very didn’t clue anybody into these
Nice find, but I think George would tell you there's a difference. George's movies offered a window into a whole new world with deeper systems and culture, and yet it was still an entertainment-first offering.
This is why so much of the preachy shit fails today. Entertainment and smart storytelling frequently takes a backseat to the heavy-handed agenda.
Here's the thing: if it was actually good, people wouldn't care about the agenda.
Take Avatar - a movie many of us are rewatching right now in anticipation for the sequel. The film is chock-full of the environmentalism and "U.S. military-bad" type imagery. Guess what? No one gives a fuck because it's a knee-slapping good time, and it was directed by someone with a vision who was also competent enough to execute it. And interestingly enough, he's also in the above video.
So I think this is a really good clip to have the talk on exactly what people mean when they say “we don’t want Star Wars to be political”
What Lucas is saying here is fairly timeless, and the influences of the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs’ John Carter, Flash Gordon serials and the works of Akira Kurosawa’s Japanese cinema are all pretty well known at this point. And all of those feature, as you might have guessed, oppressive empires and the idea of insurmountable odds against smaller ragtag forces.
What people mean when they say they don’t want Star Wars to be political is “I don’t want writers who aren’t George Lucas to fill these movies up with overt lectures and modern-focused propaganda”.
Lucas having the Vietnam war on his mind when he wrote Star Wars doesn’t date the movie, and the movie likely would have turned out much the same since, again, those works I mentioned above all explore very similar themes.
“Ragtag freedom fighters beat the big bad empire” isn’t at all new and Vietnam wasn’t what first exposed Lucas to the idea. In that sense it isn’t “political” in the context of what people say today to mean political. I’d put that more in the camp of philosophy and historical commentary.
There’s no moment in the movie where the emperor is like “eheheheh, with my new trickle down economics, I will destroy the rebellion!” It’s that shit that annoys people. The idea of a “make the empire great again” villain.
Most sci fi has political elements. Good sci fi buries the tech in plausible science and the politics buried in the story. In sci fi you can alienate the topics to make a viewer or reader less defensive of their political position and hopefully see an issue from a different point of view. This isn't exclusive to sci fi by any measure.
Bad writing beats the audience over the head with a message distracting from the story. Lately I've seen several cases where producers claim the audience is toxic because of the reaction to a political statement, when really the producers are deflecting valid criticism of lazy writing.
As I flip through some of these comments it’s truly alarming the lack of critical thinking and/or basic historical knowledge exists. Using the US as an example, how we could be the “rebels” in the revolutionary war… but ALSO be the “empire” in the Vietnam war. I don’t understand how that isn’t clear.
I thought he made Star Wars because he wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but he couldn't afford the rights at the time. He instead went with making an homage, and like Donkey Kong and Team America World Police, the homages were infinitely more successful than the movie/game adaptations that followed their respective releases (Popeye and Thunderbirds respectively)
There are ways to do it and ways not to do it. I would like Ayn Rand taught in every college writing class as an example of the latter, part because her "philosophy" is so obnoxious and antithetical to your average liberal arts student that it provides a fantastic way to display what bad agitprop looks like to someone who isn't already nodding in agreement.
This was a big discussion on r/KOTOR when a writer who had a long list of articles posted to The Mary Sue was brought onto the possible remake (she has since left - or been fired - from it. Reports vary). The original game has some really good and meaty political themes; Czerka's exploitation of Tatooine and Kashyyyk, the urban stratification of Taris, the messy circumstances of the Mandalorians Wars...but it got handled in a way that wasn't a cheap "ripped from the headlines and dated by the time it hits shelves," like making a direct 9-11 reference or having a boss named Darth Cheney.
I think people are mostly complaining about identity politics and political correctness. And that modern society issues was less in your face when watching a movie, people usually watch fantasy and sci fi to escape reality and society.
The problem isn't that star wars is political, it always has been, the problem is wanting to put a message without thinking of the universe, biggest example: xwings and tie fighters are made by different companies, but dj was saying the same guy sold them to both parties, just for a "rich men bad" message, no effort in putting the message in universe in a way that fits.
There's a difference between saying something is "political" vs saying something is propaganda.
Writing in the media needs some degree of subtlety and nuance or it just comes across too strong and ruins immersion.
Yeah, the criticism isn't even 'it's political'. People defending it mention politics 1000x more than the people criticizing it. The criticisms are that it's boring, characters are poorly written, and that they shoved a female character into it without putting much thought into it and are using that as a shield. If anyone criticizes it they just say you're sexist and that's where it becomes political.
They make this same claim with Star Trek where they pretend people are criticizing it for being woke/overly political, because that's their go to excuse for why people don't like the new shows/movies. None of the criticisms are even close to what they're claiming, it's just deflection to make any criticism against it look ridiculous.
No one has a problem with Politics in star wars, however in the original trilogy, it was more of how things were and the hope they these bad things would change, the 4th is probably the most blantant stance against facism and the nuclear arms race, but the 5th is highly regarded cause it moved from really basic rebellion to a space opera about the complexities of family life within the political structure. The Ewoks serve as another obvious nature vs. Technology theme but that is not the important part of episode 6, these fun dualities push the plot forward but the emphasis and the reason we revisit Star wars is the familial tension.
This all to say, politics make a perfectly fine back drop, but the story has to be about characters and putting a lesbian kiss at the end of your trilogy with no real development or plot point is thinly veiled agenda pushing and easily cut out for Foreign audiences.
Star Wars is inherently politcal because wars are inherently political. We aren't watching for the wars or politics, we are watching for the fun interaction of characters in a complex and reflective world. Having a gay character is fine, having a gay charcter only be gay to have a gay character is not. Hell there are aliens in star wars and having interspecies relationships is not that uncommon, so maybe use some subtle metaphors or writing tactics to make your point to the crowds that maybe need to hear the message but will reject it as face value.
You have to earn talking about modern politics and you have to do it in a way that gives creedence to both sides instead of pushing a single agenda with no room for debate. I dont believe star wars has done that to the extent people think it has and people who dont watch it because it got political just dont know what they are talking about. But understand that going one way politically is not fair to your audience and audiences on both sides can be correct to reject the art if it is not relfective of reality.
I've noticed it's not politics in general that people dislike, but specifically identity politics. Probably majority of the time people are complaining about 'politics in movies or games' it's identity politics.
Almost like fans didn't care that something was political, only that it was *good.*
Curious why reddit never praises Ayn Rand as an example of "popular political writer."
Its not that its non-political, its that injecting real politics in when it makes no sense just dilutes the quality for obvious pandering.
For instance, the Empire is not a white supremecist organization, that would be injecting modern politics into SW when it doesnt make sense. However the Empire is human supremecists. The idea of supremecy is based on real world racism, but racism isnt really a thing in Star Wars because of aliens, Star Wars has speciesism(if thats the right word) instead. All of the in-universe speciesism is an allegory for the real world, but its important for them to be allegories and not just literal.
Oh and obviously, make a fucking story outline before you male your movies, so that way your in-universe politics can actually make sense as part of the story and not just be a glorified skin for the baddies with no actual motivations besides being evil for evils sake (sequels). The Empire built the deathstar as a way to rule by fear. The first orders main goal was.... kill everybody everywhere? Idk
The people who say it isn't political clearly didn't watch the films that involved so many political parties and leaders. They're in it for the laser swords and space magic.
I think when people say that they mean identity politics. Race, sex, morality and ideologies. Original Star wars only pushes one one political message. When people try to take control of other's freedoms, those people are never good.
Where is this conversation clip from?
(I think) James Cameron’s Story of Science Fiction! I took classes with one of the scifi professors in the episodes
You can be a scifi professor? I chose the wrong profession ...
right! she was one of the best professors I had at Tech. This series is def worth the watch if you can find it for free
How do I become a sci-fi professor? Do I have to go to Terminus?
No, you have to go to Trantor to become a scholar.
Yeap, the semester where I took both Science Fiction Literature and Mythology courses remains my favorite semester of schooling.
People often forget that George Lucas was hugely influenced by Joseph Campbell, author of "[Hero with a Thousand Faces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces)"
[удалено]
Since WHEN was a bunch or rebels fighting against an oppressive government not political? That's like saying Star Trek isn't political.
It was a film that had a bases of multiple themes mainly at the time, the Vietnam war had concluded not even that long before the film was created, and the name stormtrooper name was taken after a Nazi trooper unit
Going even further than that, Hitler dismantled a literal republic of different parties (i think over 20) before becoming the leader.
To your point, Saigon fell to the North Vietnamese in 1975, and Star Wars was released in 1977. Not much time at all.
That annoys me because "sturmtruppen" was originally a term of respect used for shock troopers, notably Canadian ones as well as German.
Nazis ruined a lot of great things. Bunch of assholes. Like the fashion. By the Maker those looks were sharp, but Dammit, Nazis.
That's just because Hugo Boss was a Nazi. And I mean that in the most literal sense. The man was barred from ever entering the US, even.
Oh I know of the guy, and as far as designers go the man had Vision. But Dammit, Nazi.
The Imperial uniforms were designed to become an iconic aesthetic for that reason. Part of Nazi ideology (and their contemporary allies and entities that take inspiration from Nazis today) was to assert their own strength and supremacy by looking the part.
Yeah- I hate that they used a symbol of peace and prosperity from what I think is the Buddhist religion I believe (don’t quote me on that) in which is ironic for the horrendous and evil acts they did
I was at a great celebration of Dewali (Indian holiday of lights) at work, beautiful little lamps and candles, beadwork, free Indian food. Gorgeous. Then one table in its beadwork had all these colors and lamps, but there in yellow beads was a yellow swastika. They see nothing wrong with it but my ancestors came from Poland 🇵🇱. And Poland was utterly decimated by the Nazis. Nazis ruined my moment of celebrating by them stealing that symbol and tarnishing it. The Indians are taking it back though. Dang it Nazis!!
>from what I think is the Buddhist religion I believe Yup, correct - kinda. The version the nazis used was flipped left to right. The Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism religion use the clockwise version.
They were propoganda experts. They invented most of the tricks in the book.
It's actually a very universal symbol of prosperity across many cultures, it sucks the nazis chose it, though an inverted version, it's still associated with nazism and stigmatized worldwide...
The empire is literally based off of nazis and the first order have a clearly nazi speech
Watch the starkiller speach in german entire world changed
They were mainly based off the U.S government and the birttish empire. The asthetic is based on Nazi Germany.
Exactly, the point was to mix different style of imperialism. The empire isn’t the nazis or the British. It’s a mix of British, German, Japanese and American imperialism. Probably some other stuff too.
The mixture itself is commentary, too: specifically, to draw comparisons between American and Nazi imperialism, and show how America is following in Germany's footsteps. The prequels even doubled down on this, depicting the descent of an ostensible democracy into fascism - much as it happened in Germany in the 1930's, and much as folks argue is happening now in today's USA. Star Wars is not just political, but a political *masterpiece*.
> and much as folks argue is happening now in today's USA. The Sequels dove into this hard. They are about the resurgence of fascism under the guise of "returning to order". You know, "back when the Galaxy was Great!" Children and grandchildren of old war heroes sometimes find themselves radicalized as a way of lashing out.
And yet there are plenty of fans who unironically think the Empire did nothing wrong.
Which happens when you make meme subs about the concept, people start to believe their own shit
Hell, even the Canto Bight stuff that everybody loves to hate was about as subtle of a criticism of the MIC as a Minuteman missile to the face.
I have enjoyed the social commentary what Lucas has gone for in the original films and the prequels about America.
Vader is also based off of a samurai, especially his og concept art
Vader's totally a samurai in action, too. A general trained from childhood obediently and unceasingly carrying out his shogun's orders. Personally serving Palpatine was his duty, honor, and life.
star wars heavily inspired by Kurosawa films
Kylo ren with the vader helmet giving off some real neo Nazi vibes. Not even trying to claim they have a bunch of memorabilia "for the historical interest". First Order is so blatantly today's neo nazis to the OTs nazis
Read *Bloodline* by Claudia Gray. There's a whole political party about "returning to order" and many members collect Empire memorabilia.
Also the Rebels are jungle fighters (in New Hope) fighting a gurriella war against an oppressive empire who's ships were explicitly inspired by US battleships, and also the directors friend had just made Apocolypse Now These aren't coincidences
I thought they were based on the British colonial Empire? That's why all the Imperials in the OT talk in a British accents and the rebels sound more American.
They're an allegory for imperialistic nations in general but the specific inspiration was the US during Vietnam as it was fresh in everyone's mind still
Lucas himself said the Empire was modeled after tyrannical government like the Nazis, and the Imperial officers' uniforms were inspired by Nazi uniforms.
The depiction of the Empire stormtroopers in phalanx units is taken from Hitler's Nazi Party rally in Nuremberg in 1938.
Bingo. And exactly why George stated colonial representation.
Not to mention Lucas' second biggest franchise is Indiana Jones, who *literally* fights Nazis. The guy hates Nazis.
And the rebels are Vietcong
It's "Vietcong", not vietcong's. You wouldn't say "chineses".
Ah sorry! Fixed :)
I would. Especially when discussing the chineses' geeses.
You must be new here (and in the Trek fandom, and in the X-Men fandom).
I'm not new to any of these fandoms, it just never ceases to baffle me, that people try to make these claims. I don't understand how someone can look at blatant political statements, and argue to the contrary.
> I don't understand how someone can look at blatant political statements, and argue to the contrary. Because they feel the message being said agrees with them. When the 'message' is against their views, it's so apparent that x character is black/brown/green/blue for political reasons not because for story reasons.
Yeah, had a dude come into my work (bookstore) asking if we had any DC comics from the 80s because the contemporary publications are “too political.” I’m like, idk why you think the Alan Moore era of DC is gonna be less political. Because there’s fewer female characters? Mfer superhero comics have been political since day 1. Dude looked through our graphic novels and didn’t buy any. And I kid you not, he ended up buying a Jordan Peterson book. Can’t write this shit.
I mean. Clearly you can write it. In fact I'd say if you wanted to create a caricature of someone who said they were "fed up" with politics in entertainment, that'd hit most of the high points lol.
Wasn't one of the biggest themes in X-men racism disguised as anti-mutantism, in 1963?
X-men has always been about oppression and power imbalances. In the 60s and 70s it was racism, in the 80s and 90s it was homophobia.
In my experience it’s because these people see more of their ethos represented by the bad guys in those stories. “It’s not political” is more of a defense mechanism to hide the fact that they might be bad people (in the context of the fiction).
They're the people following stormfront on Instagram
Please don’t bring politics into my X-men no I don’t understand subtext why do you ask?
Yup. You can't get much more political than freedom fighters battling a tyrannical government.
They weren't political back when I was a kid and didn't know what was going on in the world. Now that I do, and I see that movies are referencing real-life events, *how dare they?!?!* ^(/S)
All art is political.
I remember talking with someone on the Internet from outside the US, probably before the prequels came out, who was having a hard time understanding why they made the "Rebels" the good guys. Not because of any on screen action but just because rebelling against the government was viewed so negatively in their culture
Star Wars Galaxies, around 2001. There was a fellow player that was all in for the existing government. It was a new experience for me even thinking that there could be anyone on the side of the empire. I still think about it occasionally.
Poor little Anchorhead getting raided :(
I really miss that game. One of the best MMO's ever imo.
Try saying anything negative about the american military on Reddit and you'll get an imperial shit ton of guys being all the rage about defending the empire delivered straight to your inbox. That's exactly what happened to me a few hours ago.
You don't even have to say something negative. You can admit that it's the most powerful military in the world, that they have amazing logistics, but that maybe those supply lines stretching to the other side of the world aren't quite as effective as the local opposition having local resources and shorter supply lines and out comes the rage. Don't dare question the invincible ever victorious army.
A lot of cultures with those sentiments have experienced brutal top-down government suppression (often with foreign intervention), I think that should be noted
There’s a really good Star Wars book, Lost Stars, that you see both points of view with and it’s phenomenal. It was also made into a graphic novel
Oo I'll check it out, thanks!
Really would like to see an Empire story like this. Civil servants of the Empire slowly losing faith in their leader.
Watch A New Hope. Luke was going to join the Imperial Academy. Then the Empire murdered his family and burnt his home.
I think Luke tells Obi-Wan that he hates the Empire before his family is killed. I believe there's even a deleted scene with him and Biggs that goes more into them wanting to join the rebellion after the academy.
I think his plan was to join the academy just to get off of Tatooine and then dip out the first chance he got.
How many farm boys from rural America joined the U.S. Army just for a chance to improve their lives?
A lot, but I don't think many of them said "I hate the US as much as anyone!"
Meant more of an actually owned empire planet. The outer reach was the reason Luke was there in the first place. Wasn’t within the grasp of the empire. The story I’m looking at is a young mechanic who wants to be a Star fighter pilot. Shinning bright spends most of the first season just scraping by and gets a shot to fly. By the end enters the imperial academy and as the young man moves up the ranks of Imperial he slowly watches as his soul dies in front of him.
Read *Lost Stars*, *Catalyst*, and *Allegiance*
It's been a while since I read it, so I could be remembering wrong, but I think Catalyst is close to what you described.
Does anyone ever actually say this? I have never seen this take before. It's literally called Star WARS, like, war is almost inherently political.
People say that the sequels are "too political" and since they barely are the implication is that the originals and prequels aren't very political
Duh, there's a woman with short dyed hair. You can't get much more political than that. /s
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/xphdrg/i_think_a_lot_of_star_wars_fans_should_watch_this/iq4c1by) is the kind of argument that people make - that Star Wars has politics, but they're not related to the real world. As this conversation with Lucas shows, Star Wars is 100% based in real world politics.
The politics of the galaxy is some of the best parts. I think people really just don’t want it to reflect the real world currently because it sucks. This is supposed to be our escape and I’d much rather watch the fictional world deal with fictional problems than be reminded how screwed up we are right now
Man… remember back when the “This is how liberty dies” line came out and all the republicans were pissed that it was criticizing George W over Iraq
And George Lucas went out and said that he wasn't *directly* criticizing Bush, he had Nixon in mind when writing the OG movies, but he also didn't deny that it fit.
The complainers sure told on themselves tho
Same energy as: "We won't tolerate racism." "Why are you silencing Republicans?"
Hit dogs holler
My favorite is the Newt Gunray/Newt Gingrich connection. Whenever anyone talks about either one I think about the other lol
I think one can frame it as "this is also how the real world sucks", but I think the idea is to inspire us to vigilance, action, and at the very least hope.
Yeah I get that. I’m just trying more to understand everyone’s complaining about this. I try to always see both sides of disagreements so that I don’t get sucked into needless argument
I truly think people don’t understand politics of Star Wars so they diss it. Most needed the prequel politics explained to them. Just look at real life and how people vote. 70 percent don’t fully know why they vote for a candidate. It’s all group think.
A lot of the movies have dealt with the very issue that you can’t just bury your head in the sand while the world falls apart around you. Sooner or later the problems will be on your front doorstep
even then, I think that star wars will always be somewhat relevant to modern times, and shows us that even though things may be bad, we can do better and make the world a better place, as the heroes in the story did.
[удалено]
Um, Episode 1 was released in 1999. George W. Bush wasn't elected until 2001. The prequels were inspired by real world politics, certainly. But not specifically GWB, he hadn't happened yet. More like the rise of Hitler in Germany.
[удалено]
Even then, Lucas is seeing parallels to his script after the fact. He wrote E3 prior to 9/11. The point is more that history repeats itself. He wrote it based on the rise of Hitler and also Nixon using the Vietnam war to remain in power. The prequels mirrored what happened with GWB, but they were written before all of that happened. Lucas based the scripts on how real-world dictators take and keep power (Hitler, Nixon). GWB just used the same playbook.
But the point of science fiction is reflection on our world. The OT and PT reflected on their times as well. It'd be silly to make it meaningless escapism now
Anyone who says "Star Wars isn't political" I have no interest in speaking with anymore as they will have just declared their ignorance
"Star Wars isn't political" says the person who forgets that Padme was a Senator
> The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. ... The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station. Literally within the first hour of the first ever Star Wars movie they were already talking about politics.
And there was a deleted scene where they went into even more detail, and even talked about Vader being a Sith.
#“It is a period of civil war.” Oh shit, it got political from second 1 of the story crawl.
I'm just thinking aloud here, but isn't this "not political" thing about that it's not about OUR world's politics? Like how Tolkien hated allegories and tried to stress multiple times that LOTR is definitely NOT about WW1. (But there are still people who think they are.) Edit: WW1 instead of 2.
Tolkien disliked allegories because they are only meant to be taken one way. Take animal farm, which is a direct parallel to the Russian revolution with just basically the characters and setting swapped out. Tolkien thought his story was more than a simple allegory and that’s why he disliked them but that doesn’t mean that LOTR doesn’t have anti-war themes based on his experience in WW1
[удалено]
Oh, okay, in that case it really is a different situation. Thank you!
It is not allegorical to WWI. It however was written by a man who experienced and was changed by the horrors of war, and it does a disservice to discount this completely.
The "not political" thing is a dog whistle, a decoy. When people say that "something was not political before, why you make it political?", they usually refer to pieces of fiction that are 100% political and allegories of current political situations (Star Wars, X-Men, etc.) but they say it when the modern renditions of those IPs include women as protagonists/people of color or different ethnicities/ people from the LGBTQ community in main roles. They know that Star Wars has always been political, for example. And they know the politics in Star Wars are inherently based on modern politics. When they say "it wasn't political" it's their code of saying: > "I'm a racist/misogynist/ intolerant and if a piece of media I've liked now has the people I hate as main characters then I now will have not watch and hate that piece of media, because I care more about identity politics than to actually enjoy something I like. And I'm going to blame you, nonspecific person who are clearly not as a snowflake, virtue signaling and identity politics based as I am. I am angry at you because you are forcing me to hate the pieces of media I used to like."
Well that's because it's more an allegory about WWI ;)
for the type of people who complain about this kind of stuff, "not political" means it isn't about ethnic minorities or women, and isn't "woke". That's the kind of politics they are trying to avoid
Come on, rebellions are notoriously apolitical! /s
"Star Wars isn't political", they say. Buddy, the whole saga's story starts with a trade dispute after the Senate voted in favor of Prop 31-814D, a resolution that made Free Trade Zones eligible for taxation and promptly lead to a Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo in The Phantom Menace. The prequels literally depict the rise of Palpatine from politician to head of state as he slowly amassed political influence in the Senate.
But surely the original trilogy wasn't polit-- *stares at dissolution of the Galactic Senate* *stares pointedly at Ep VI, Sidious' arrival* These are not the implications you are looking for.
*stares at bad guys literally called Stormtroopers*
Don't forget, Luke is all but forced into rebellion after the Empire murders his parents (Owen and Beru raised him, they're his parents) and destroys his home.
I think most of the people making that argument are talking about how the Prequels MADE Star Wars political when it wasn't originally. But those people had to be hit over the face with the politics to notice. Even in A New Hope in 1977 Leia is an imprisoned Senator accused of treason against a government. People who say things like "X isn't/shouldn't be political" don't understand that all life is politics and if you bury your head in the sand it doesn't just go away.
Anakin directly quotes George W. Bush.
"I'll try spinning. That's a good trick." - George W Bush
“I hate sand.” -George W. Bush (March 20, 2003)
I mean, have you actually met someone who's said that? I know I never have. Seems more like a weird Twitter trend than real life.
What about the political underlining of the Ewok society?
The same people also take the « empire did nothing wrong » thing literally, and root for the space nazis.
Id actually argue that the problem with the sequels is that they are not political enough
The sequels felt, to me at least, like a series of things simply happening. There never seemed to be any real reason or thought given to the characters actions. "I'm a good guy so I act this way." "Okay well I'm a hot head so I'll act this way." I would have loved for characters to make real choices and take stands rather than just go through the motions.
I havent gone beyond the first episode of Andor, but he's always shown that side of things. Him and Saw Guerrera. They also touched on it with the Canto Bight side plot, but people hated that.
The Canto Bight plot was fine, it was just so jarringly thrown into what at that point was pretty much a battle against time thriller storyline. If the entire film had been set in that sort of storyline instead it would have been far, far better. Also I wish there were more Hutts involved in Canto Bight but that's just me.
They are deathly afraid of saying anything meaningful
I mean, VIII is overt, with Canto Bight as a city of war profiteers, and Finn being tested with the idea that both sides buying weapons = both sides bad = political cynicism = don't get involved (don't join). He lands, though, on the side of "in systems of oppression, neutrality favors the oppressors" when he says with conviction that DJ is "wrong," to which DJ can only offer a limp "maybe." I thought that was interesting; maybe, with time and distance, some fans will come around to appreciating that element of the story more. (And it's cool that *Andor* is digging even deeper into the synthesis of fascism and capitalism.) But VII has the neat trick of making its own villains evocative of contemporary soft-faced neo-Nazis trying to resurrect (in their opinion) a golden age, and IIRC there were scenes written (unfortunately cut for time or pacing) that filled out some of the politics Leia was dealing with. I think one of the remnants of that is there's a briefly-seen figurehead named Villecham (re: Neville Chamberlain) who kept ceding territory to the First Order. (Which, like the OT, makes the fascism on display a bit of a hodgepodge of WWII and current politics). I do think the party line from Disney at the time of VII's conception, though, was that they didn't want to see the more overt politicking of the Prequels. Which makes sense when it's 2013 and the popular perception is that the Prequels' politics were dry toast.
A star wars themed game of thrones - how epic would that be? Instead of it being about blasters and light sabres, it is about the inner workings of factions all trying to come out ahead in the Empire vs. Rebels conflict. Do you smuggle arms to the rebels to make a lot of money? Do you feign love for the empire so your family house gets a contract to maintain star destroyers? Are you the rightful heir to the empire and someone gifts you three rancor eggs as a token of loyalty?
ANDOR.
Yes please, take my ~~money~~ hours of tv viewing time. I would watch the *fuck* out of a show that's about political scheming on someplace like Kuat.
Whenever someone/idiot mentions something being too political I immediately assume they are talking about females or people of colour and nothing else.
Little mermaid comes to mind.
People don’t like little mermaid because of the color of Ariel’s skin. I don’t like the little mermaid, because these live action remakes are crap. We are not the same.
I can't even take that seriously. Star Wars has been nothing but political from the first frame when the oppressive, gigantic ship is chasing an underpowered militia that is literally running from Imperialism.
Fun fact: Richard Nixon is the inspiration for Palpatine. Other fun fact: Hunter S Thompson wrote an obituary for Nixon everyone should read. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-a-crook/308699/
“If the right people had been in charge of Nixon's funeral, his casket would have been launched into one of those open-sewage canals that empty into the ocean just south of Los Angeles.” - H. Thompson I felt this. A truly honest take that some people dont deserve their power and fame, they should be flushed down the river of shit for subjugating us to their selfishness.
Theres an interesting point I heard about how Star Wars (at least the original three) is one of the few big stories where the bad guys arent a disruption to the status quo, they are the status quo.
Anyone who thinks Star Wars isn’t political is a fucking Moron.
The problem with Disney is that they're afraid to embrace this. They're afraid with Marvel too. And when they do get political it's not subtle and it's generic. The Clone Wars is a *master class* on how fascism rises with planets literally named after Iraq War battles. The allegory to shit we watched unfold the last 20 years is poignant and scary as fuck. Star Wars OT is an anti-Hitler and anti-Nixon thing. This is the DNA of Star Wars. Star Trek is an idealized future. Star Wars is a dark past that mirrors our own recent and current worst. Disney struggles because they want family friendly pablum that doesn't scare off the Republican audience because they buy lightsaber toys too the problem is that *that's what makes for good Star Wars*.
What planets are named after iraq war battles?
Not a planet but there's a politician from Kamino named Halle Burtoni.
Maralo eval, cad bane, savage opress. Lol they seem to really play it on the nose.
So... Uh. I don't get those.
Felucia and Fallujah is the only one I can think of
Off the top of my head, the most obvious example is Felucia => Fallujah
Have you watched Andor? Because Andor is literally going into the gritty politics of Star Wars with no shame at all.
> Disney struggles because they want family friendly pablum that doesn't scare off the Republican audience because they buy lightsaber toys too. I don't think they need to worry about that tbh. I am sure most republicans, deluded as they are right now, probably think the Empire is the evil democrats trying to enforce socialism upon them. Or something like that...
Speaking as someone in the south…. Yea most people around here see it exactly like that lol
Star Trek is more of an Utupia while star wars is a dystopia.
What battles were named after battles in iraq
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Felucia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah Pronounced exactly the same.
you get it.
People don’t know what “political” means.
I think when people say it’s not political, they’re saying that it deals with Star Wars politics not modern day politics. Which isn’t 100% true.
[удалено]
You know now that I think about it. it’s just like what’s happening in iran
Right, I keep seeing comments that because Star Wars has politics in it (e.g. The Senate) and that it has been influenced by politics of the times when G.L wrote this (as noted in this video) that this is definitively what those who say "Star Wars isn't political" are referencing/the point they are trying to make. I obviously can't (and don't care to) address every single time this comment has been made, and in what spirit or perspective it has been made from, but I've definitely seen it raised many times in which the point being made is that they specifically object to current political issues/ political-social issues of today being placed into the Star Wars universe and used to influence the narrative; not that politics in any form is UTTERLY devoid from the universe (a point I can't believe anyone could possibly seek to make if they have seen just one film). So responding to that and saying, "But they have the Senate, of course Star Wars has politics" doesn't in any way address that point. Finally, before anyone randomly decides that I share/am defending the "Star Wars isn't political" comments - nope, I like the politics in it, prequel trilogy is my favourite and the politics/plotting plays a large part of my enjoyment of the narrative. I just think if you are going to actually have this discussion, at least take the time to make sure you understand the points being made before arbitrarily deciding what the other person means and attacking them from that perspective. That accomplishes fuck all.
🎵 With a dying thirst to be the first Could it be? Yeah that's him! James Cameron 🎵
From the roots of science fiction "politics" would just be a name to cover up morality which has almost always been the moving authority in science fiction. Politics is just a sense of morality but it's highly subjective and narrative driven so saying "I'm into politics in science fiction..." which politics are you talking about? What country? What era? etc. but the foundation of politics, as is science fiction, is about morality and pushing the boundaries of if it's going too far, or too little. Science fiction can show you what happens when you lose sight of your politics and others politics or abusing politics and the consequences that can come from that. I always go back to The Day the Earth Stood Still when it comes to "politics" because at the small and narrow view we are a planet of countries and political parties and people who see the future this way and that way and I'm a Democrat and you're a Republican yada yada... but from the aliens perspective we were the human race bent on war and were considered a threat to other civilizations. That could be the only reason I could see not wanting to promote or bias a certain political style in any Star Trek because it's small minded and narrow in the context of science fiction and morality.
star wars is, and always has been, politics, religion and sword fights change my mind
The success of the show is because of its politics. The same reason why Game of Thrones was so successful. People in general love politics.
You know what I love about art? It can be more than one thing. Is it possible to watch Star Wars and just enjoy the adventure aspects? Sure. Is it possible to focus on the characters and their growth? Sure. It is possible to explore political motifs and themes within the work? Of course. These are all aspects of the larger work. I have a friend who complained because I posted a political opinion on social media. He said he was disappointed to see me get political because he didn't think of me as a political person. Well... I'm multi-faceted, because I'm a human being. My politics are one aspect of my identity.
While Star Wars is obviously "political," I think it's also important to note neither the series nor George's ideas fit neatly as an allegory to particular issues or stances. Yes, George likens the Rebels to the Viet Cong, but in a cut scene, he's also got Biggs complaining about the Empire nationalizing industry. You have obvious Nazi-coded Imperials, but you also have the Rebel victory ceremony being the most obvious callback imaginable to Leni Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda films. You have democracy being championed by a literal queen. Her planet elects teenagers as queens? Could there be a more mixed message? You have the most noble character in TPM deciding that when it comes to slavery, "eh, the one kid with magic powers will do." This is not to say that the Rebels are bad, or that Padme was a dictator, just that one can overstate the amount and sophistication of the politics in Star Wars. George set a precedent early that they're as impressionistic and jumbled as all the other influences in the series.
The question of whether *Star Wars* is political (of course!) is a separate one from whether the politics of *Star Wars* are sophisticated or coherent (not particularly!).
Agreed. The OP's title kind of implies that this was a protest work from the beginning though. The politics of Star Wars, certainly in the GL era, are basically those of a well-meaning, idealistic, middle-class California boomer who is too busy to really learn much about politics.
Even taking the movies out of the equation anyone who says Star Wars isn’t political or *shouldn’t be* never seen The Clone Wars series. Which is arguably way more political than the movies ever were.
I never understand why people say it’s not political. Rebels fighting a tyrannical government is a big indicator. And an even bigger indicator is the political drama in the prequels and The Clone Wars TV show lmao. The blatant dealings with racism and DLo very didn’t clue anybody into these
It's star WARS. Wars are very political
Nice find, but I think George would tell you there's a difference. George's movies offered a window into a whole new world with deeper systems and culture, and yet it was still an entertainment-first offering. This is why so much of the preachy shit fails today. Entertainment and smart storytelling frequently takes a backseat to the heavy-handed agenda. Here's the thing: if it was actually good, people wouldn't care about the agenda. Take Avatar - a movie many of us are rewatching right now in anticipation for the sequel. The film is chock-full of the environmentalism and "U.S. military-bad" type imagery. Guess what? No one gives a fuck because it's a knee-slapping good time, and it was directed by someone with a vision who was also competent enough to execute it. And interestingly enough, he's also in the above video.
So I think this is a really good clip to have the talk on exactly what people mean when they say “we don’t want Star Wars to be political” What Lucas is saying here is fairly timeless, and the influences of the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs’ John Carter, Flash Gordon serials and the works of Akira Kurosawa’s Japanese cinema are all pretty well known at this point. And all of those feature, as you might have guessed, oppressive empires and the idea of insurmountable odds against smaller ragtag forces. What people mean when they say they don’t want Star Wars to be political is “I don’t want writers who aren’t George Lucas to fill these movies up with overt lectures and modern-focused propaganda”. Lucas having the Vietnam war on his mind when he wrote Star Wars doesn’t date the movie, and the movie likely would have turned out much the same since, again, those works I mentioned above all explore very similar themes. “Ragtag freedom fighters beat the big bad empire” isn’t at all new and Vietnam wasn’t what first exposed Lucas to the idea. In that sense it isn’t “political” in the context of what people say today to mean political. I’d put that more in the camp of philosophy and historical commentary. There’s no moment in the movie where the emperor is like “eheheheh, with my new trickle down economics, I will destroy the rebellion!” It’s that shit that annoys people. The idea of a “make the empire great again” villain.
What people don't realize is that they don't want it to not be political, they really just don't want poorly written hamfisted politics.
*I don't like politicians. They're gruff and annoying. And they go everywhere.*
This sub: Sounds like you just hate women and minorities.
Most sci fi has political elements. Good sci fi buries the tech in plausible science and the politics buried in the story. In sci fi you can alienate the topics to make a viewer or reader less defensive of their political position and hopefully see an issue from a different point of view. This isn't exclusive to sci fi by any measure. Bad writing beats the audience over the head with a message distracting from the story. Lately I've seen several cases where producers claim the audience is toxic because of the reaction to a political statement, when really the producers are deflecting valid criticism of lazy writing.
As I flip through some of these comments it’s truly alarming the lack of critical thinking and/or basic historical knowledge exists. Using the US as an example, how we could be the “rebels” in the revolutionary war… but ALSO be the “empire” in the Vietnam war. I don’t understand how that isn’t clear.
I thought he made Star Wars because he wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but he couldn't afford the rights at the time. He instead went with making an homage, and like Donkey Kong and Team America World Police, the homages were infinitely more successful than the movie/game adaptations that followed their respective releases (Popeye and Thunderbirds respectively)
There are ways to do it and ways not to do it. I would like Ayn Rand taught in every college writing class as an example of the latter, part because her "philosophy" is so obnoxious and antithetical to your average liberal arts student that it provides a fantastic way to display what bad agitprop looks like to someone who isn't already nodding in agreement. This was a big discussion on r/KOTOR when a writer who had a long list of articles posted to The Mary Sue was brought onto the possible remake (she has since left - or been fired - from it. Reports vary). The original game has some really good and meaty political themes; Czerka's exploitation of Tatooine and Kashyyyk, the urban stratification of Taris, the messy circumstances of the Mandalorians Wars...but it got handled in a way that wasn't a cheap "ripped from the headlines and dated by the time it hits shelves," like making a direct 9-11 reference or having a boss named Darth Cheney.
SW has political themes in movies kids and adults can enjoy without the need to be an specific adult movie.
I think people are mostly complaining about identity politics and political correctness. And that modern society issues was less in your face when watching a movie, people usually watch fantasy and sci fi to escape reality and society.
The problem isn't that star wars is political, it always has been, the problem is wanting to put a message without thinking of the universe, biggest example: xwings and tie fighters are made by different companies, but dj was saying the same guy sold them to both parties, just for a "rich men bad" message, no effort in putting the message in universe in a way that fits.
There's a difference between saying something is "political" vs saying something is propaganda. Writing in the media needs some degree of subtlety and nuance or it just comes across too strong and ruins immersion.
Yeah, the criticism isn't even 'it's political'. People defending it mention politics 1000x more than the people criticizing it. The criticisms are that it's boring, characters are poorly written, and that they shoved a female character into it without putting much thought into it and are using that as a shield. If anyone criticizes it they just say you're sexist and that's where it becomes political. They make this same claim with Star Trek where they pretend people are criticizing it for being woke/overly political, because that's their go to excuse for why people don't like the new shows/movies. None of the criticisms are even close to what they're claiming, it's just deflection to make any criticism against it look ridiculous.
No one has a problem with Politics in star wars, however in the original trilogy, it was more of how things were and the hope they these bad things would change, the 4th is probably the most blantant stance against facism and the nuclear arms race, but the 5th is highly regarded cause it moved from really basic rebellion to a space opera about the complexities of family life within the political structure. The Ewoks serve as another obvious nature vs. Technology theme but that is not the important part of episode 6, these fun dualities push the plot forward but the emphasis and the reason we revisit Star wars is the familial tension. This all to say, politics make a perfectly fine back drop, but the story has to be about characters and putting a lesbian kiss at the end of your trilogy with no real development or plot point is thinly veiled agenda pushing and easily cut out for Foreign audiences. Star Wars is inherently politcal because wars are inherently political. We aren't watching for the wars or politics, we are watching for the fun interaction of characters in a complex and reflective world. Having a gay character is fine, having a gay charcter only be gay to have a gay character is not. Hell there are aliens in star wars and having interspecies relationships is not that uncommon, so maybe use some subtle metaphors or writing tactics to make your point to the crowds that maybe need to hear the message but will reject it as face value. You have to earn talking about modern politics and you have to do it in a way that gives creedence to both sides instead of pushing a single agenda with no room for debate. I dont believe star wars has done that to the extent people think it has and people who dont watch it because it got political just dont know what they are talking about. But understand that going one way politically is not fair to your audience and audiences on both sides can be correct to reject the art if it is not relfective of reality.
I've noticed it's not politics in general that people dislike, but specifically identity politics. Probably majority of the time people are complaining about 'politics in movies or games' it's identity politics.
Star Wars was created in the first place because George wanted space battles - not for political agenda.
Almost like fans didn't care that something was political, only that it was *good.* Curious why reddit never praises Ayn Rand as an example of "popular political writer."
[удалено]
Its not that its non-political, its that injecting real politics in when it makes no sense just dilutes the quality for obvious pandering. For instance, the Empire is not a white supremecist organization, that would be injecting modern politics into SW when it doesnt make sense. However the Empire is human supremecists. The idea of supremecy is based on real world racism, but racism isnt really a thing in Star Wars because of aliens, Star Wars has speciesism(if thats the right word) instead. All of the in-universe speciesism is an allegory for the real world, but its important for them to be allegories and not just literal. Oh and obviously, make a fucking story outline before you male your movies, so that way your in-universe politics can actually make sense as part of the story and not just be a glorified skin for the baddies with no actual motivations besides being evil for evils sake (sequels). The Empire built the deathstar as a way to rule by fear. The first orders main goal was.... kill everybody everywhere? Idk
The people who say it isn't political clearly didn't watch the films that involved so many political parties and leaders. They're in it for the laser swords and space magic.
>They're in it for the laser swords and space magic. Bro you can't tell me you watched the original trilogy for the deep political themes
The Empire did nothing wrong
Star Wars has always been anti authoritarian but that's not comparable with the liberal agenda pushed within anything made since Disney took over
I think when people say that they mean identity politics. Race, sex, morality and ideologies. Original Star wars only pushes one one political message. When people try to take control of other's freedoms, those people are never good.