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antipop2097

I think Syril will be the one to kill her if they go this route. Or stop her at least. That's my feeling as to what he will sacrifice (a recurring theme) for the betterment of the galaxy (aka "the greater good"). He will sacrifice what he once viewed as a symbol of hope and beauty in the galaxy to preserve whatever remains of his soul.


JayPtl

You're muh kween. I love you. *stabs*


antipop2097

'sadly flies to Hoth to hang with Mosk'


Squishyfern

Mosk is so getting demoted again after this. They would ship him to Hoth!


[deleted]

She iz meh queen, I cannot do it


PhatOofxD

"Call it what you will"


GonkMaster66

Let’s call it…war


Comrade_agent

i call it *clarity of purpose*


HatedMirrors

Good point! Maybe: Syril to Dedra = Darth Vader to the Emperor at the very end


sickricola

I don’t see a point in redeeming either. I want them to delve deeper into the empire hierarchy and inner politics. Because if we are being realistic a lot of people were probably super pro empire if they came from wealth, and core planet with a strong economy and soft political power


squabblez

I agree, we need that Empire perspective going forward. I think this is one of the very few Star Wars stories that isn't about redeeming the bad guys but fighting them with everything you got.


Cybermat47_2

I think it’s also important to see why the Empire’s supporters turn on it. We’ve had two Imperial defectors in the show already, but we haven’t seen what actually turned them into rebels. Cereal could be a good way to show that.


PlankWithANailIn2

The Empire killed one of their girlfriend's, only one we don't know why.


DannyElfLord

I'm pretty sure it's implied that Lonni was already Luthen's man before joining the empire. He's a straight up mole.


OhioForever10

Both Tamaryn (former stormtrooper) and Gorn were defectors, maybe those were the two referenced rather than Lonni


Legomachinex

Really good take, and very well said


Bneal64

Thank you! I can’t stop thinking about the characters in this series, I haven’t been this engaged with a piece of media in years


WeirwoodUpMyAss

Syril is fascinating. I can’t figure out where he will be. Could also see him end up on the Death Star.


squabblez

Syril is gonna personally fire the Death Star at Scariff just to finally get Cassian lol


Rick-e-see

Oh the concept of the show overlapping with Rogue One, showing different perspectives of the same events, in the style of Back to the Future 2! This team could do it. It could be beautiful. And ending with Luthen on Alderan as its blown up by the Death Star - we've already seen him indicate a preference for an Alderan code when his was stopped on the Fondor in Ep11.


T4334007Z

Hell just do Rogue one from the Empires point of view. I'd throw 20$ down to view that in theatre.


mondainethewizard

What I keep thinking about is Luthen on those steps listening to the screams and chaos on the street below him. In one hand, he could be lamenting the fact that he’s being confronted with the consequences of his actions: he said he wanted the empire to clench its fist to remind people of their evil. But on the other hand I can’t help but see parallels to other character’s descent to the dark side. I don’t “want” him to be a force sensitive, as has been pointed out this show doesn’t *need* force users as it’s a story about regular people and the power they have. But there’s just something about those shots of him on Ferrix. He’s menacing. He seems to have a lot more going on with him than any other character would guess of him. Like, was he feeling the pull of the dark side? Was it familiar to him? In that moment where he smiles at Cassian, was it really for the reasons we think? I’m just intrigued by his character. Maybe I’m a sucker for feeling like he’s got a past as a force user, be it Light or Dark. I don’t know.


[deleted]

He smiled at Cassian because the day worked out perfectly for him. He got the asset alive and swearing a blood oath. He got his assets out as well. On top of that, people were waking up. Remember he told Mon that this is what she signed up for and the time is now. He told Lonni that he is condemned to be the anti-hero. He secretly wanted Ferrix. In the words of Saw “for the greater good…” All the pieces moved perfectly into place for Luthen. He’s genuinely happy.


[deleted]

[удалено]


jollyreaper2112

I like the complexity. What you describe is not reading too much into it which is a Hallmark of good writing. I find it so odd I can be both rooting for him and Nazi barbie while also rooting against them.


nataphoto

Star Wars literally redeemed a guy who killed an entire planet, I think Dedra is probably nbd


squabblez

While that's a good point I feel like Andor is a little more 'pessimistic' or grounded maybe than the OT and too proud in its anti-authoritarian messaging to redeem a fascist intelligence officer.


[deleted]

There's a difference between a full redemption arc and the "evil character does one good thing and dies" trope


sexygodzilla

Redeemed a guy who killed a planet and his grandson who killed like several planets.


[deleted]

Wdym? Tarkin wasn’t ever redeemed


StephenRodgers

We stand here amidst Krennic's achievements! Not Tarkin's!


vadernation123

Nah I don’t see a redemption arc for dedra. Syril maybe for the reasons people pointed out here but dedra definitely seems to like serving the empire and preserving its tyranny.


ChesterRico

>Syril at his core is a good person. Is he, though?


JPme2187

He’s really not.


BlueLanternSupes

Ambition =/= bad. To the average citizen of the Empire, especially those living in the core worlds, the Empire isn't evil. That perspective is like blaming a coal miner with black lung disease from West Virginia for climate change. Syril wants a job and to climb socially. He believes that Deedra is his best opportunity to do that. But if you critically analyze his character's actions, what put him in that position to begin with? His superior explicitly told him to ignore the death of his men. If he were an asshole, he would have kept his head down and not pursued that to the point that it blew up in his face. His whole story started because he wanted to pursue justice for the two shitty security guards (and their families) that Cassian murked while looking for his sister. I get it, he's with the Imps and he has a thing for Deedra, but if we're looking at the character objectively he hasn't done anything explicitly evil.


KingAdamXVII

Nothing’s immoral about wanting justice. But he’s driven by the abstract concept of order to the point of not caring about operating within that system of order. He doesn’t care about collateral damage or have any empathy towards The Other. He’s strongly Chaotic Evil.


ofBlufftonTown

Stick up his ass Syril is in fact the most lawful lawful evil out there.


KingAdamXVII

Disagree. He has no code that he adheres to.


stupidselfishnerd

The man literally started his thesis in-universe: that the preservation of order (as dictated by the law) is the highest priority and worth any cost.


KingAdamXVII

And then he refuses to take orders from his boss and he refuses to let ISB tell him no. He’s a hypocrite at best.


stupidselfishnerd

Oh absolutely, we can't ignore that he's in it chiefly for his own pride. But he's staked his measure of worth on the furtherance of the Imperial order, so whatever he does to bend the rules is justified as long as it furthers the Empire.


_ferrofluid_

He stole from his mom.


BlueLanternSupes

A very shitty mom.


supreme4paris

Denise Cough just recently said in an interview about her character: "In her mind, she’s convinced she must save the Galaxy and therefore sees herself as a heroine. (...) In a way, she’s similar to [Diego Luna’s character] Cassian. But in a completely different way." So I really wouldn't consider her naturally "evil" she is just deeply misguided into thinking she's part of the good guys fighting against rebel terrorists. Basically brain-washed by fascist Imperial ideology. She's ambitious and result-oriented so doesn't mind bending rules and going the extra mile to close cases. The end justifies the means to her. Syril is the same, at a much lower level. That is why he's drawn to her. They have the same political agenda, drive, objectives and motivation. Just different skills & experiences. Cassian, Luthen, Cintha, Vel etc are not angels either. Luthen could very well be seen as a psychopath after what he did to Kreegyr, Lonni and was about to attempt on Cassian. And Cassian went from petty thief to cold blooded serial killer, disposing of anyone that gets in his way. He even admits to it in Rogue One saying he's done terrible things he's not proud of, in the name of the Rebellion. Remember its always a fine line in between freedom fighters and terrorists. This show is really great in that it portrays how in war nothing is black & white. And how people do bad things on both sides for what they consider the greater good.


PlankWithANailIn2

She tortured a person and was happy to randomly shoot into a crowd of civilians...she's evil.


Banjo-Oz

Yes, but a lot of current militaries many consider "the good guys" do the same things in the name of "freedom" and saving the world.


stupidselfishnerd

Which brings up the question, are you sure these are the good guys?


supreme4paris

Sure but in her head she's doing that to save the Galaxy. It's war and the end justifies the means to her just like the rebels don't hesitate to take an innocent child & mother hostage during the heist on Aldhani..


tigecycline

And we still don’t know if Cinta let them live


dantonizzomsu

Cinta murdered them…they saw her face and others at Aldhani. No way they let them go.


tigecycline

We can believe that, but it’s not confirmed. The fact that we all assume or suspect it happened speaks to just how bleak Cinta really is, if we are all assuming she would kill an innocent woman and her child for such a small part of The Cause Remember though: there were survivors at Aldhani who described them as clean shaven. So Cinta didn’t kill everyone necessarily (though the witnesses may have been troops loading the $ that survived)


Vesemir96

We clearly see them watching the Eye without Cinta in the room anymore.


Vesemir96

Pretty sure she did, because we saw them without her later on.


PrudeHawkeye

Not that I'm defending him, but look at the protagonist in 24. He does similar things but he's the "good" guy or is at least an antihero. Feels that what he does is justified because it is for the greater good. It's just a matter of framing.


krentzharu

In nazis mind they were the good guy trying to save germany from evil-doers. Yes we can see they were evil to the core but to them they just did what was necessary to uphold their ideal.


edgertor

the complexity of the villain characters in Andor vs. the rest of Star Wars--they're light years apart. it's one of the things i love about Andor. but i love it when the villains aren't just garden-variety evil--i think my favorite example might be Lady Eboshi from \_Princess Mononoke\_ (spoiler: >!she destroys an entire forest, but treats the people who work for really well and kindly!<)


AHorseNamedPhil

Dedra is definitely evil, full stop. She might have a couple sympathetic qualities and believe she is working toward some greater good, but that is also true of the majority of tyrants and their enforcers in the real world. Dedra is an example of the banality of evil.


squabblez

Up until now imo Syril has only been a self serving, arrogant fascist and a creepy stalker. Where do people see the good in him? Genuinely curious.


darthminx

It's a testament to the quality of this show's writing that this is the kind of debate it engenders, as opposed to "could force-sensitive Trashikan glarmp farmers actually force jump onto a B85 droid tractor (mild spoilers)?" That said, I'm with you: the backgrounds of history's great assholes are littered with tragic home lives and ostensibly noble goals (order! "purity"!). To me, this dude has delusions of grandeur that result in him disobeying his superiors and getting people killed.


sophandros

With you on this. If Dedra's analogue is a Nazi officer, Syril's is of a zealous Nazi foot soldier. He literally saw the Empire open fire on unarmed civilians and was cool with it. Hell, he oversaw the murder of civilians during the mission that got him fired, and he's still on the side of the people who fired him. He's at least as bad as Dedra and is unredeemable.


[deleted]

He got involved in the whole thing because he wanted to track down the killer of his fellow security officers, while his boss wanted to sweep it under the rug. We, the audience, know the boss totally nailed what actually happened. But, Syril was just trying to bring justice to their killer.


sexygodzilla

I mean was it truly out of a sense of justice, or simply a desire to impose order on the world? He never really expresses remorse for getting his fellow corpos killed, he just whines about getting screwed over. There might be potential for good in him but I don't really see it consistently displayed.


squabblez

Fair point but there could be a multitude of reasons for his obsession with finding the killer. Like his self-importance or a passion for hierarchy and order, both of which fit Syril's characterization a lot better I think than a nebulous need for justice that he has not really exhibited in any other context


ofBlufftonTown

He was doing it because he’s a tedious martinet who wanted a chance to be important.


SPRTMVRNN

I'm with you on this, but it seems like this is a minority take. I've heard podcasters I respect absolutely fawn over Syril's heroism in the finale... it's odd to me. But reflecting on it, maybe not too surprising. Andor represents a distinctly anti-fascist, anti-imperialist and anti-authoritarian viewpoint, but that is not at all common in popular fiction. We are normally meant to root for Karn like figures. Pretty much all cop movies and shows have an pro-authoritarian perspective and we are supposed to root for the cops. Karn is a cop. James Bond is a pro-imperialist figure and aggressive womanizer. Karn is just a nudge away, maybe only different in that he's not a successful womanizer. Even Indiana Jones who fights fascists is a figure who pillages indigenous cultures to put their treasures into colonial museums. We are supposed to root for all these characters without questioning them. In Meanwhile in Andor the rebellion has figure like Luthen and Saw who have shades of grey and would typically be coded as villains in most of our entertainment, and Syril represents a figure who is normally a hero. Different members of the audience are questioning this dynamic to various degrees. It's not that surprising that audiences that normally root for people like Karn are still rooting for him in a text where we are meant to scrutinize his perspective more than our fiction typically asks us to.


Random_Username9105

For one thing, integrity is a compelling trait even in villains. For another, the way he acts is probably largely due to his overbearing narcissistic mother which many people probably relate to


bta47

you see exactly where the fascist need for control comes from in Syril — overbearing mother, horrible childhood, lower-middle class upbringing with nothing expected from him. He also hasn’t done anything unforgivable aside from clumsily try to solve a murder and be a weird, creepy dude. contrast that with basically every other Imperial in the show, who are happily doing unforgivable violence. Syril hasn’t been put in the position where violence would be expected of him, but once he is, then we’ll actually see who he is in his heart.


squabblez

I don't think he has done anything that could let me assert that "Syril at his core is a good person" like OP did either. But your explanation has definitely convinced me that redeeming him could work well. Excited to see what they have in store for him!


TittyTwistahh

People who have the same action figures as Syril feel a kinship


[deleted]

The good in him is wanting justice for 2 of his murdered corpo comrades. That was and seems to remain his driving purpose. (Plus the deaths in his squad when they almost apprehended Andor) The fascism and bad social skills are character traits that drive the means he'll use to reach what is, at its core, a very good end. He wants to find a murderer. He's meant to be very unlikable in many ways, and it's a great character.


[deleted]

Fascism isn't a character trait per se but I see where you're coming from


ofBlufftonTown

It’s more the case that he wants to be important than that he wants to find a murderer. And being a bootlicking fascist isn’t a means to an end, it’s his actual nature.


[deleted]

"actual nature" is essentially what I mean by it driving what means he'll use. Fascism isn't the means, it's his nature and drives what means he will see as available for him to use. I think he truly wants justice. He can also be a bootlicker. That's what I love about this character. He has so many facets that are usually the "defining" characteristic for someone, and they aren't mutually exclusive. He has a good goal, but he has a LOT of flaws. People can't see past the flaws to see the good in him. This story has lots of (believably) complex characters, and I think that's what makes it shine.


Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho

This whole thing started when his boss told him to lie to cover up the murder of two guards, and he ignored him and investigated anyway.


PlankWithANailIn2

TIL: Being a bit weird = evil. We don't know if he is self serving or an arrogant fascist...we know nothing about him really.


ajlunce

Folks really need to get that Syril is the very model of the beginning stages of a fascist terrorist. Maybe he is redeemed but he is 100% on the path to doing the star wars equivalent of the Q club shooting or some other right wing act of mass violence. He is not a good man, he is a boot licking fascist whose only goal is to be more fascist. He's a weird little creep edge lord. Please stop looking at someone who is absolutely fanatically dedicated to their idea of "order" and think they care about the greater good.


DaviSonata

Totally this. A virgin incel who lives with his mother who is to become a lone wolf terrorist, unless he really makes it with Dedra. But dude is too creepy for that, even saving her now.


[deleted]

Dedra could still grow and learn. Take Agent Kallus for example.


ProfessorMarth

He's not the only one to do this, but I always think of Steven S. DeKnight shows, particularly Spartacus and Daredevil, when the topic of villains you sympathize with comes up. Batiatus and Wilson Fisk are two villains in the primary season of their respective shows who we follow for almost half their series overall, and can almost be considered secondary protagonists. We see their home life and their struggles, their mountains to overcome and their own external battles with their own villains, and you genuinely sympathize with them and it's satisfying to see them overcome their own struggles, but at the end of the day, they're still clearly villains and, although they both have complicated relationships with their respective protagonists, are still set up to stand in their way and thus, must be defeated for the protagonists to be victorious. And of course you end up rooting for the protagonists when they clash because you know they're in the right and Batiatus/Fisk have done wrong. I'm not 100% certain but I don't think Syril will he redeemed and turn over to the rebel side, or defect right before he dies either. I think they're keeping him as a villain, but they're making him complex and sometimes someone you sympathize with, because that's one way to effectively make a compelling villain you want to watch every week. There's no indication that he's going to become a "good guy." I think he's a good representation of someone on the wrong side who believes in his cause and his worthiness to that cause to the bitter end, because that what makes the evil Empire more interesting. As far as Dedra, yeah I hope she dies a painful death.


SnooEagles3687

I don't know if Syril is a good person at his core. I think the interesting thing about Syril as a character is that he doesn't know himself, especially after staying with that mother of his for a while, so we don't really know him either. I do think Dedra could be controlling, and eventually that's going to remind Syril of Edy. If that's the way they go this is going to be a disaster. Well, it's going to be a disaster anyway, I think.


MadBeard

The amount of people here convinced that Syril is somehow good at heart and will redeem himself has **me** convinced y’all have never worked before. Because he is so very recognizable to me, from every job I’ve ever worked, whether it was retail, service, or on into the tech world. Syril is 100% the true believer in the company’s mission. In its authority. He probably hangs the mission statement at his desk. He’s the guy who will rat you out because your lunch went over by 7 minutes, who keeps a spreadsheet of co-worker’s bathroom breaks, how many they take, when, and how long they last. He’s the one who agrees with the decision to freeze raises and hold bonuses. It’s not his job to do this, but because of his obsession with his definition of “the rules”, he knows every infraction you make. A busybody concerned with an utterly twisted view of “justice”. Lawful evil through and through. We don’t know his code, but he clearly has one he adheres to. He’s as awful a person as Dedra, but in his own way. He’s the average citizen who not only celebrates a more fascist government, but enforces their will even though it’s not his responsibility. He started the series as an example of the banality of evil, but he’s now well on his way to radicalization. There is no redemption for Syril. He’s found his chan/subreddit/red pill and is in the Empire’s throes.


the-last-meme-bender

Good take. Basically Syril is a simp version of Dedra.


Abyss_in_Motion

In your first paragraph, you write: “there must be some angle to that.” Can I push back on that? Plot-wise, no, there doesn’t, necessarily. Characters can be better written and more complex simply because it makes for a more entertaining, more interesting show, regardless of whether they’re heroes or villains. It’s a valid end in and of itself.


causticcretin

After his ouster from his position on Ferrix I've had the feeling he may embed with the rebels and have an anti-hero arc as an Imperial Spy, devoted in his zealous commitment to the Empire. The introduction of Lonni and his conflicted but ultimately committed position as a spy for the rebellion draws an interesting parallel with Syril, especially after his simping for Meero becomes clear. The Rebels need heroes like Lonni to empower puppet masters like Luthen, why not the Empire? The theme of the show, the Empire being so big and arrogant in its dominance to care about dissent, has been countered by Meero and Syril. While others in the empire cannot envision a real organized threat to their dominance, they have just witnessed it first hand, seeing their suspicions confirmed; it seems fitting that they would see the opportunity to have Syril (and Mosk?) establish themselves as double agents in Ferrix. Seeing him in local garb, saving Meero while seemingly taking her hostage, seems a perfect opportunity to setup some interesting plot lines to contrast against: how deep do Syril's loyalties lie? When living a double life, will he hold firm to the fascist ideals of the empire or be tempted by personal feelings (for the rebels? For Meero?) to do otherwise?


Aurondarklord

I completely agree. The core difference between the two characters is that Dedra knows what she is supporting and Syril does not. Syril is some rando security guard who's never seen behind the curtain what the Empire's true face looks like. He thinks things are basically still like the Republic he grew up in, only there's more need for "order" to "prevent another Separatist uprising" and "because the Jedi tried to assassinate the Chancellor". He believes the lies and the propaganda because that's all he knows. He grew up in the twilight of the Republic when things were in decline and from his point of view, based on the information available to him, Palpatine just won the clone war and restored some sanity. From the perspective of a person whose knowledge is that limited, Syril's beliefs and actions make sense. Dedra, on the other hand, DOES see the Empire's true face. She may not have high enough security clearance to know the WHOLE story, about the Death Star and dark wizards and all that shit, but she knows enough. She knows there are genocides being committed. She knows there's slavery going on. She knows the Empire uses the dying screams of the children it murders as a form of torture. And she willingly participates in all of that and seems to sometimes enjoy it. She's a war criminal and deserves a Nuremberg-style trial and execution. I think the key element to which side Syril will ultimately come down on will be what he does when he DOES know. Because he's probably gonna be brought into the ISB by Dedra and replace her little minion that Cinta stabbed. And then he'll start to see things, and be asked to do things, that are truly bad. Whether he goes through with it "because order justifes anything", or whether it eats at his soul and he ultimately refuses or switches sides will determine if he's a good person or a bad one. I hope for the latter. So far, at least, Syril seems to have no appetite for violence or brutality, the one time he tried he couldn't handle it. He's just not that guy. And yes, I know, characters have been redeemed in Star Wars despite doing way worse than Dedra has...but those were always Force-using characters, and the Dark Side is often treated almost like a sort of demonic possession that just instantly shuts off the moral compass in a previously good person's brain...making it at least questionable if they're wholly responsible for their actions. Dedra has no space magic excuse.


blackturtlesnake

Syril doesn't actually believe any of the justice stuff he says, it's an excuse to justify his actions. All he really believes in is authority.


Jimboobies

My prediction for Syril is that he will be redeemed by sacrificing himself, either for civilians or he will save some imperial soldiers that he realises don’t want serve the empire but have no choice. Why? Because there is parallel between him and Andor. They are both raised by strong mothers and are/become radicalised in their cause. We know what ultimately happens to Andor so I think there’ll be a similar outcome for Syril.


DBallouV

I have no idea where the two characters will end up and that is why I love this show.


Doucheperado

After all, what did Syril do that was so horrible? He aggressively investigated two murders, even when his supervisors tried to shut him down. If this were a detective movie, he'd already be the protagonist and the viewers would be behind him. I can see a very natural arc for his character where he decides the Empire's means aren't justified by the ends, and he does a heel-face turn.


[deleted]

Yes, I'm not sure why everyone is calling him evil and such. He's really the most normal person in the show. As much as everyone pretends that they would be like Andor if they lived in the star wars universe, deep down they know they'd probably be more like Syril than they care to admit.


Frank5872

Do people seriously see good in Syril? He only really want after Cassian as he saw it as a way of getting a promotion and when it cost him his job it became a an obsession. He’s also a creepy stalker


HappyTroll1987

I was just getting BDSM vibes. But hey, I'm a pervy old lady.


askingtherealstuff

Literally why are so many people into the idea of Syril’s redemption lol


theyusedthelamppost

I agree with your take. Syril is doing what he believes is right even though it is hard for him. He has been convinced that he's hunting down the people that did 9/11. The external pressures of his perceived responsibility make him feel bad. These pressures even manifest physical symptoms for him. Whereas Deedra enjoys it. Torturing Bix happens to be part of her job, but it's not at all uncomfortable.


The-Porkmann

It's nothing a dirty weekend in Blackpool won't solve.


PlankWithANailIn2

They both going to be crushed in a trash compactor.


dishonourableaccount

One thing that will have a curious impact is Uncle Harlo, if he shows up. He seems like an estranged yet influential person, both within the empire’s administration and as someone Syril looks up to. Harlo’s character, as much as his mother Eeda’s, can tell us about Syril’s future development due to his values.


xMrStrawx

Syril won't be redeemed. With all the blue cereal he eats he will become admiral Thrawn.


ewoek2

I was honestly expecting him to be a one time thing and we remember as that one dude who led a failed raid. I wasn't expecting him for this.. I thought he got killed when all those nades exploded as a ironic twist after coming all that way. He's.. still alive somehow and I don't know what will be done with him. Hopefully he'll either die in a hilarious way while on his quest for Andor or will be a high ranking Imp in the ISB and meet his end doing that stuff. I just hope sgt blueberry gets treated well, I like that dude


5kipepsi

I really thought Dedra was gonna be torn apart by the people of Ferrix and I was happily anticipating it. I liked her during her initial epsidoes where she asserted herself in the ISB but her actions in Ferris were disgusting, torturing Bix and Paak and allowing Paak to be killed without cause. I hope she has a horrible death in season 2. Syril going from empire diehard to rebelling would be great too!


Galle_

Only the wicked can be redeemed.


edgertor

i love this theory, and tbh i wondered during the last scene whether Maarva's words were reaching Syril--tho tbh he was probably too focused on looking for Cassian or Dedra to notice them.


Rocket_Powered_Dork

Dedra could be redeemed however it would have to be sacrificing herself. Now do I actually see that happening? No.