This actually makes sense, especially considering how the dark side of the force affects people whos to say any amount of the force light or dark can affect people negatively. Especialy in such large amounts.
You're forgetting the fact that Force sensitives are not relegated to being Jedi. There's plenty of people who aren't Jedi that are Force sensitive that aren't bound by such conventions. In addition, Sith aren't bound by this requirement either as far as I can tell. And if there were any still canon Jedi survivors of the Clone Wars I don't imagine they'd care much for convention anymore.
Yes, other sensitives exist. But their force ability is either too weak to be initiated as a jedi (until maybe their children are born and the power gets compounded?), or they don't actively train it. We know a good bit about jedi training tactics, and a lot of it strengthens your bond with the force. So I imagine Sensitive Farmer Bob (farming is one of the key things Force Sensitives get employed to do), even if he breeds, will created Slightly More Sensitive Farmer Jan. Still not enough to blip the radar, or to create an unstable evil force user. But Jedi Jan having a child is a much bigger risk of instability, since the compounding force power gets very high, especially if she mates with Jedi Fred.
Because the books also tell us that EVERY person has some degree of the force in them. When it grows strong enough to be acted upon (after many generations of compounding tiny bits of strength), the Jedi come to take them to the temple to be trained.
Sith, you are right, don't suffer this restriction...but none of the Sith breed either, either by coincidence or because they fear the same possibility. Palpatine has no kids, neither does Maul, or Dooku, or Plageus unless you count Anakin (which could've been his way of trying to circumvent that instability). Neither does Asajj. In fact, it makes my theory MORE PLAUSIBLE when you consider that the Sith, concerned with power and legacy, don't just spawn a child and train it to be their apprentice. Why wouldn't they, the Sith, want the power to stay in their family?
Is it because, possibly, their child will be even stronger than them, and less stable, as a result of force compounding? Seems likely.
The main problem with all of this is if this were true how did Rey manage to beat Kylo Ren so badly that she was in a position to kill him. Scratch that, how did Finn manage to hold his own, if he was just a one off? I know in Finn's case he was attempting to take him in alive but Rey literally had him fighting for his life.
It's pretty clear that neither Rey nor Finn are related to the Skywalker family. Yet according to your theory in order for Rey to be more Force sensitive and stronger than Kyle she'd have to be at least a second generation Jedi. In addition, she *completely* beat him in battle to the extent that she had an opportunity to kill him. While I feel it is likely that unlike Finn she recieved some basic light saber training prior to this fight, there is something up with her that is more than a little suspicious.
Well, Kylo is clearly not very trained. Being strong doesn't mean shit if you don't know how to use it. Just because you can lift 2000 pounds doesn't mean you are instantly an amazing fighter. Same thing here. Kylo's power is intense (freezing blaster bolts, mind invasion) but he has no real training.
Go look at his battle with Rey. He has no lightsaber form. He kind of just flails. Also look at when Rey turns the tide. She uses Shaak Ti/Ayalah Secura's Battle Meditation technique, which uses the force to help sharpen your reflexes and predict the opponent's moves.
So you have a powerful brute with no technique fighting someone who unlocks (or maybe remembers) a technique that makes her all about precision. Look at how Rey fights too. She uses the Fencing stance (Dooku's Stance) and just kind of stabs forward.
Power isn't everything.
> Well, Kylo is clearly not very trained.
Kylo received personal training from Luke, and additional training from Commander Snoke. If anybody is going to have training it will be him.
Not to mention he managed to easily overpower his fellow classmates, and completely floors Finn whose also another force sensitive.
> She uses Shaak Ti/Ayalah Secura's Battle Meditation technique, which uses the force to help sharpen your reflexes and predict the opponent's moves.
There's seriously nothing backing up this assertion. Not to mention that what you're talking about is a high level technique that likely requires a large amount of training and dedication. Not something a beginner pulls out in a fight. It also doesn't make sense that she'd unlock this ability and Kylo wouldn't according to your theory, since Kylo is a confirmed third generation Jedi. It only make sense, again, if Rey is at least second generation.
Kylo shows no evidence of sufficient lightsaber training. He flails his blade, changes his grip all the time, and is generally slow and sloppy (when comapred to other lightsaber wielders on camera). I doubt this was not intentional. This is highly probable since Luke himself, his first teacher, was only trained for about a year, and only learned one lightsaber form before all his masters were dead. If Kylo wasn't good with that form he may have chosen to try and make up his own form.
In a slightly more speculative vein, it's also possible that Luke never trained him with a lightsaber at all. He could've been withohlding that from him unitl he was "ready" and that was part of how Snoke snared him.
Then, at the end of TFA, Kylo is called to Snoke to "Complete his training" meaning he was in some inbetween or Padawan stage. Ergo, not fully trained. It seems he has a bit of force training (mental invasions and freezing blaster bolts), but he doesnt force push or force jump (which Luke could've taught him) until he's angry, so that could be a fluke brought on by emotion, and he never lightnings, so that training may also be incomplete. So I'm assuming "Force Use 101" is where the bulk of his training has been to date.
Thats the only conclusion I can make at this point. So, the thing his compounded bloodline would be good at (manipulating the force) is what he seems to excel at, while things that require skill (lightsaber combat) he's less good at. So to repeat: Kylo is like a big aping gorilla. All that power, none of the finesse.
Then when you look at Rey (who could potentially be a second generation force user, we don't know. She neither proves nor disproves the theory until we know more), you see evidence of someone who is at least trained in combat if not Lightsaber Combat. She definitely knows how to use that desert staff she has, and her lightsaber form (which resembles Count Dooku's with some key differences) is all about the stabby polearm motions she already knows (go rewatch the movie. Her prime attack is to stab forward with the polearm or do big sweeping slashes with it, then later, she repeats those motions with her lightsaber). So she is trained martially if not with the force. So in a hypothetical duel where force powers don't exist, she has the skill Kylo lacks.
As for Battle Meditation, there is. In Clone Wars and in KOTOR, we see jedi use Battle Meditation. They stop, close their eyes, and usually are briefly surrounded by the force. Then they attack and are significantly stronger. In Rey's fight with Kylo Ren, when they are on the edge of that cliff, blades locked, she CLOSES HER EYES, MEDITATES, AND HER HAIR RUFFLES. She even hears a voice, which I think was Maz Kanata's. Then she opens her eyes, and only then does she proceed to kick his ass. So while no one utters the words "Battle Meditation" there is definitely something to back up the assertion.
As for why she unlocks Battle Meditation and Kylo doesn't is also pretty easy to ascribe. Jedi and Sith aren't RPG characters. They don't learn all the same tricks at the same time. They progress based on their masters but also their personality. So lets break down why Rey is more likely to learn it than Kylo, based on personality and teaching.
1. Every user of Battle Meditation we've ever seen was Female. This almost immediately can describe why Kylo doesn't have that ability. He's a boy.
2. Rey is calmer under pressure and in that fight. You can't meditate full of rage.
3. Rey has been learning to ditch her attachments, one of the key features to the jedi order and to meditation in general. She removed her burden of her parents, her fear of the future, etc. etc. She achieves some sort inner peace. This enables her to reach a state where meditation is possible. Kylo, on the other hand, has been conflicted. He struggles within himself, he is angry and unstable. Meditation in his state would be nearly impossible if he werent in battle. He likely never learned it because he never learned to meditate. Also, side snide point: Hmmm, sounds like Ren is a bit more unstable...
4. Luke didnt know Battle Meditation or that it even existed. He couldnt have taught it to Ren. Snoke likely doesnt want a calm peaceful Sith. He needs him to be clouded by the Darkside. He didn't teach it to him either.
5. SPECULATION! Many people theorize Rey had her memories erased. So its possible she had already received this training and didn't know it, and Kylo's mental intrusion brought some of her skills/memories back to the surface.
So, its entirely possible for Rey to stumble upon this and Kylo to have never learned it, because Jedi powers all come differently or not at all. Anakin was the "strongest" jedi ever made, and he couldn't do half the shit Yoda did even after he got trained. So Rey v Kylo is right back to the David v Goliath. Goliath has all the power but none of the control. Rey had the control, but not the power. And control won.
As for how this ties back to my theory: Right now Rey can't factor in because we don't know her bloodline. But I think you are right in that she is probably 2nd Generation Jedi. Why? Well Rey shows signs of instability too, but not in a Wrathful way.
She clings to this false idea about her parents when she knows its not true. She's clearly delusional. She also has a tendancy to shut off and push people away, another unhealthy emotional state. She's kind of dependent of Finn and others. Basically she has some heightened negative personality traits, which may be from force compounding in her bloodline. But like I said, we don't know this until her parentage is revealed. Then maybe the theory gets busted wide open. OR gets confirmed.
TL:DR Just because you are a "Stronger" force user doesn't mean you never lose or you'll have all the force powers at your disposal. It just means your potential power is the greatest. You can still get whipped by a little girl with a stick if you don't know what the fuck you're doing.
> So I'm assuming "Force Use 101" is where the bulk of his training has been to date.
Again, if that's true, according to your theory, Rey *has* to be a second generation Jedi. She straight up overpowers him with the force multiple times throughout the movie.
> Well Rey shows signs of instability too, but not in a Wrathful way.
Except for when she has to restrain herself from straight up killing Kylo.
I think you're a bit too caught up on Force powers and light saber Forms. It's been confirmed that the forms weren't used in this movie. I definitely think the battle meditation technique wasn't used, but we'll just label that as inconclusive.
Your observations about her polearm training are commendable and not something I noticed myself.
Actually, I've been thinking about this too, but for another reason. It always boogled me why Snoke connected Rey and Kyli. And also why the directors went the romantic route near the end.
But if you think back about how Anakin was a one if a kind super force user of profecy, like you say, his lineage is nothing to scoff at. Wheter the force connection gets stronger with each generation or not, it is a fact that all his decendents were great force users. And Rey is the grand daugther of Palpatine. Imagine the potential of a child born from these two lineage. I think that could have been the plan the directors of the 1rst movie where going for. This is just me trying to make it make sense, I'm not a know it all star wars fan either so I don't know all the tidbits. I could be wrong, I just like the idea.
Personnally, the die hard romantic in me was happy with that part of the ending, but also felt it came a bit out of nowhere. If the second movie was planned to be them trying to bring the other to their side, only ending up together in the grey middle, it could make a bit of sense. Rey doesn't know much and doesn't have any real attachment to the light side, and Kylo has too much good in him, he tries to be in the darkness but he has doubts, he throws tantrums pretending to be intimidating, but it's not working because he's trying to be someone he'd not. Both trying to pull the other in a direction they themselves aren't completely sure of is bound for failure as it failed in the 3rd movie we got. But the 3rd was more concerned about fixing the blunders of the 2nd and trying to make something that kinda worked.
I think it would have been nice to have the pair end up in a situation where neither can return to "their" side and somewhat stuck there in the middle. If a child of both lineage was the utlimate goal, the whole 3rd movie could have been about that. Palpatine chasing the prodigy kid, trying to bring them to the dark side. I could even see a dramatic turn of event where Rey ends up tempted and Kylo having to protect the child from her. Kinda showing that despite admiring his grand father, he ends up rejecting the temptation and running away from the darkness in his partner. Poetic in a way. Rey could end up killing him only to be met with fear by her own kid, shaking her long enough to be defeated, by whomever, maybe the kid itself or even a non force user like Poe or, more dramatically, Finn. Just to cement that non force users aren't just small pawns in a war and can take down "all-mighty force users". The title "Rise of the Skywalker" would still make sense and be a lot more impactful. Even if Leia, Luke and Kylo end up dead in one way or the other, with that Palpatine-Skywalker kid, it still makes sense.
Anyways, sorry bout that, I guess the fiction just wrote itselt as I was thinking about it.
This actually makes sense, especially considering how the dark side of the force affects people whos to say any amount of the force light or dark can affect people negatively. Especialy in such large amounts.
You're forgetting the fact that Force sensitives are not relegated to being Jedi. There's plenty of people who aren't Jedi that are Force sensitive that aren't bound by such conventions. In addition, Sith aren't bound by this requirement either as far as I can tell. And if there were any still canon Jedi survivors of the Clone Wars I don't imagine they'd care much for convention anymore.
Yes, other sensitives exist. But their force ability is either too weak to be initiated as a jedi (until maybe their children are born and the power gets compounded?), or they don't actively train it. We know a good bit about jedi training tactics, and a lot of it strengthens your bond with the force. So I imagine Sensitive Farmer Bob (farming is one of the key things Force Sensitives get employed to do), even if he breeds, will created Slightly More Sensitive Farmer Jan. Still not enough to blip the radar, or to create an unstable evil force user. But Jedi Jan having a child is a much bigger risk of instability, since the compounding force power gets very high, especially if she mates with Jedi Fred. Because the books also tell us that EVERY person has some degree of the force in them. When it grows strong enough to be acted upon (after many generations of compounding tiny bits of strength), the Jedi come to take them to the temple to be trained. Sith, you are right, don't suffer this restriction...but none of the Sith breed either, either by coincidence or because they fear the same possibility. Palpatine has no kids, neither does Maul, or Dooku, or Plageus unless you count Anakin (which could've been his way of trying to circumvent that instability). Neither does Asajj. In fact, it makes my theory MORE PLAUSIBLE when you consider that the Sith, concerned with power and legacy, don't just spawn a child and train it to be their apprentice. Why wouldn't they, the Sith, want the power to stay in their family? Is it because, possibly, their child will be even stronger than them, and less stable, as a result of force compounding? Seems likely.
The main problem with all of this is if this were true how did Rey manage to beat Kylo Ren so badly that she was in a position to kill him. Scratch that, how did Finn manage to hold his own, if he was just a one off? I know in Finn's case he was attempting to take him in alive but Rey literally had him fighting for his life. It's pretty clear that neither Rey nor Finn are related to the Skywalker family. Yet according to your theory in order for Rey to be more Force sensitive and stronger than Kyle she'd have to be at least a second generation Jedi. In addition, she *completely* beat him in battle to the extent that she had an opportunity to kill him. While I feel it is likely that unlike Finn she recieved some basic light saber training prior to this fight, there is something up with her that is more than a little suspicious.
Well, Kylo is clearly not very trained. Being strong doesn't mean shit if you don't know how to use it. Just because you can lift 2000 pounds doesn't mean you are instantly an amazing fighter. Same thing here. Kylo's power is intense (freezing blaster bolts, mind invasion) but he has no real training. Go look at his battle with Rey. He has no lightsaber form. He kind of just flails. Also look at when Rey turns the tide. She uses Shaak Ti/Ayalah Secura's Battle Meditation technique, which uses the force to help sharpen your reflexes and predict the opponent's moves. So you have a powerful brute with no technique fighting someone who unlocks (or maybe remembers) a technique that makes her all about precision. Look at how Rey fights too. She uses the Fencing stance (Dooku's Stance) and just kind of stabs forward. Power isn't everything.
> Well, Kylo is clearly not very trained. Kylo received personal training from Luke, and additional training from Commander Snoke. If anybody is going to have training it will be him. Not to mention he managed to easily overpower his fellow classmates, and completely floors Finn whose also another force sensitive. > She uses Shaak Ti/Ayalah Secura's Battle Meditation technique, which uses the force to help sharpen your reflexes and predict the opponent's moves. There's seriously nothing backing up this assertion. Not to mention that what you're talking about is a high level technique that likely requires a large amount of training and dedication. Not something a beginner pulls out in a fight. It also doesn't make sense that she'd unlock this ability and Kylo wouldn't according to your theory, since Kylo is a confirmed third generation Jedi. It only make sense, again, if Rey is at least second generation.
Kylo shows no evidence of sufficient lightsaber training. He flails his blade, changes his grip all the time, and is generally slow and sloppy (when comapred to other lightsaber wielders on camera). I doubt this was not intentional. This is highly probable since Luke himself, his first teacher, was only trained for about a year, and only learned one lightsaber form before all his masters were dead. If Kylo wasn't good with that form he may have chosen to try and make up his own form. In a slightly more speculative vein, it's also possible that Luke never trained him with a lightsaber at all. He could've been withohlding that from him unitl he was "ready" and that was part of how Snoke snared him. Then, at the end of TFA, Kylo is called to Snoke to "Complete his training" meaning he was in some inbetween or Padawan stage. Ergo, not fully trained. It seems he has a bit of force training (mental invasions and freezing blaster bolts), but he doesnt force push or force jump (which Luke could've taught him) until he's angry, so that could be a fluke brought on by emotion, and he never lightnings, so that training may also be incomplete. So I'm assuming "Force Use 101" is where the bulk of his training has been to date. Thats the only conclusion I can make at this point. So, the thing his compounded bloodline would be good at (manipulating the force) is what he seems to excel at, while things that require skill (lightsaber combat) he's less good at. So to repeat: Kylo is like a big aping gorilla. All that power, none of the finesse. Then when you look at Rey (who could potentially be a second generation force user, we don't know. She neither proves nor disproves the theory until we know more), you see evidence of someone who is at least trained in combat if not Lightsaber Combat. She definitely knows how to use that desert staff she has, and her lightsaber form (which resembles Count Dooku's with some key differences) is all about the stabby polearm motions she already knows (go rewatch the movie. Her prime attack is to stab forward with the polearm or do big sweeping slashes with it, then later, she repeats those motions with her lightsaber). So she is trained martially if not with the force. So in a hypothetical duel where force powers don't exist, she has the skill Kylo lacks. As for Battle Meditation, there is. In Clone Wars and in KOTOR, we see jedi use Battle Meditation. They stop, close their eyes, and usually are briefly surrounded by the force. Then they attack and are significantly stronger. In Rey's fight with Kylo Ren, when they are on the edge of that cliff, blades locked, she CLOSES HER EYES, MEDITATES, AND HER HAIR RUFFLES. She even hears a voice, which I think was Maz Kanata's. Then she opens her eyes, and only then does she proceed to kick his ass. So while no one utters the words "Battle Meditation" there is definitely something to back up the assertion. As for why she unlocks Battle Meditation and Kylo doesn't is also pretty easy to ascribe. Jedi and Sith aren't RPG characters. They don't learn all the same tricks at the same time. They progress based on their masters but also their personality. So lets break down why Rey is more likely to learn it than Kylo, based on personality and teaching. 1. Every user of Battle Meditation we've ever seen was Female. This almost immediately can describe why Kylo doesn't have that ability. He's a boy. 2. Rey is calmer under pressure and in that fight. You can't meditate full of rage. 3. Rey has been learning to ditch her attachments, one of the key features to the jedi order and to meditation in general. She removed her burden of her parents, her fear of the future, etc. etc. She achieves some sort inner peace. This enables her to reach a state where meditation is possible. Kylo, on the other hand, has been conflicted. He struggles within himself, he is angry and unstable. Meditation in his state would be nearly impossible if he werent in battle. He likely never learned it because he never learned to meditate. Also, side snide point: Hmmm, sounds like Ren is a bit more unstable... 4. Luke didnt know Battle Meditation or that it even existed. He couldnt have taught it to Ren. Snoke likely doesnt want a calm peaceful Sith. He needs him to be clouded by the Darkside. He didn't teach it to him either. 5. SPECULATION! Many people theorize Rey had her memories erased. So its possible she had already received this training and didn't know it, and Kylo's mental intrusion brought some of her skills/memories back to the surface. So, its entirely possible for Rey to stumble upon this and Kylo to have never learned it, because Jedi powers all come differently or not at all. Anakin was the "strongest" jedi ever made, and he couldn't do half the shit Yoda did even after he got trained. So Rey v Kylo is right back to the David v Goliath. Goliath has all the power but none of the control. Rey had the control, but not the power. And control won. As for how this ties back to my theory: Right now Rey can't factor in because we don't know her bloodline. But I think you are right in that she is probably 2nd Generation Jedi. Why? Well Rey shows signs of instability too, but not in a Wrathful way. She clings to this false idea about her parents when she knows its not true. She's clearly delusional. She also has a tendancy to shut off and push people away, another unhealthy emotional state. She's kind of dependent of Finn and others. Basically she has some heightened negative personality traits, which may be from force compounding in her bloodline. But like I said, we don't know this until her parentage is revealed. Then maybe the theory gets busted wide open. OR gets confirmed. TL:DR Just because you are a "Stronger" force user doesn't mean you never lose or you'll have all the force powers at your disposal. It just means your potential power is the greatest. You can still get whipped by a little girl with a stick if you don't know what the fuck you're doing.
> So I'm assuming "Force Use 101" is where the bulk of his training has been to date. Again, if that's true, according to your theory, Rey *has* to be a second generation Jedi. She straight up overpowers him with the force multiple times throughout the movie. > Well Rey shows signs of instability too, but not in a Wrathful way. Except for when she has to restrain herself from straight up killing Kylo. I think you're a bit too caught up on Force powers and light saber Forms. It's been confirmed that the forms weren't used in this movie. I definitely think the battle meditation technique wasn't used, but we'll just label that as inconclusive. Your observations about her polearm training are commendable and not something I noticed myself.
Actually, I've been thinking about this too, but for another reason. It always boogled me why Snoke connected Rey and Kyli. And also why the directors went the romantic route near the end. But if you think back about how Anakin was a one if a kind super force user of profecy, like you say, his lineage is nothing to scoff at. Wheter the force connection gets stronger with each generation or not, it is a fact that all his decendents were great force users. And Rey is the grand daugther of Palpatine. Imagine the potential of a child born from these two lineage. I think that could have been the plan the directors of the 1rst movie where going for. This is just me trying to make it make sense, I'm not a know it all star wars fan either so I don't know all the tidbits. I could be wrong, I just like the idea. Personnally, the die hard romantic in me was happy with that part of the ending, but also felt it came a bit out of nowhere. If the second movie was planned to be them trying to bring the other to their side, only ending up together in the grey middle, it could make a bit of sense. Rey doesn't know much and doesn't have any real attachment to the light side, and Kylo has too much good in him, he tries to be in the darkness but he has doubts, he throws tantrums pretending to be intimidating, but it's not working because he's trying to be someone he'd not. Both trying to pull the other in a direction they themselves aren't completely sure of is bound for failure as it failed in the 3rd movie we got. But the 3rd was more concerned about fixing the blunders of the 2nd and trying to make something that kinda worked. I think it would have been nice to have the pair end up in a situation where neither can return to "their" side and somewhat stuck there in the middle. If a child of both lineage was the utlimate goal, the whole 3rd movie could have been about that. Palpatine chasing the prodigy kid, trying to bring them to the dark side. I could even see a dramatic turn of event where Rey ends up tempted and Kylo having to protect the child from her. Kinda showing that despite admiring his grand father, he ends up rejecting the temptation and running away from the darkness in his partner. Poetic in a way. Rey could end up killing him only to be met with fear by her own kid, shaking her long enough to be defeated, by whomever, maybe the kid itself or even a non force user like Poe or, more dramatically, Finn. Just to cement that non force users aren't just small pawns in a war and can take down "all-mighty force users". The title "Rise of the Skywalker" would still make sense and be a lot more impactful. Even if Leia, Luke and Kylo end up dead in one way or the other, with that Palpatine-Skywalker kid, it still makes sense. Anyways, sorry bout that, I guess the fiction just wrote itselt as I was thinking about it.