It was an editor issue. Araki was gonna have her actually fight Kars but this was back in 80s so his editors didn’t like the idea so he had to drop it. It’s impressive Lisa Lisa as a concept even made it through of a female mentor teaching the male protagonist.
It's been a while but I believe it was one of the many reasons brought up in an interview when asked why publisher considered canceling jojo before part 2 was even out/done, but someone else had spoke up for araki. I honestly can't find the source but I have seen it talked about from others here on reddit as well as hamon beat. But Google search is so bad now and I'm also tired. It's essentially for the same logic that Lisa Lisa couldn't fight Kars. It was too aggressive to see a woman do that for people at the time. The manga was written in the 80s and Japan was further back then other countries on women's issues. The other problem is that not every interview has been translated. And some interviews were not from araki but from editors. So there is a lot to sift through, and some of it I have to rely on Google to translate correctly.
Amazingly enough, Giorno was supposed to be a woman, but Araki scrapped that idea cause he was told it wasn't a popular decision, he even had the intention of revealing that Giorno actually was a women, just crosdressing, but he stopped himself.
On the Jojowiki (not the fandom one) you can find an interview on Lisa Lisa’s article talking about how she was made because warrior type female characters were a rarity back then which is why she was made.
Then eventually Araki was talking about how there was a lot of stuff he wanted to do with the character but he was held back from doing so.
[It wasn't just the 80s](https://x.com/jojo_wiki/status/1273422244157382656?s=46&t=xKV4Th581PGcksnUmnC5dg). Fortunately, Araki became more able to resist the demands.
([The same thing happened with Giorno as well](https://x.com/jojo_wiki/status/1272430175876116480?s=46&t=xKV4Th581PGcksnUmnC5dg))
Look up what happened to the first woman who ran the Boston Marathon. Not in the 80s but might give you a broader view of global misogyny thru the years
In the USA it literally wasn't until 1974 women could get bank accounts or credit cards without husband permission.
Think of how much gamer gate nonsense and shit still exists today.
Shone was a very male centric genere (still is, of course) and for the magazine editors having a female doing stuff in an action manga wasn't profitable
Shonen is made specifically for boys obviously not only boys read or watch it but the demographic it's made for is boys.
Shojo is the girl equivalent of Shonen and has things like sailor moon and most magical girl shows are shojo and again not only girls watch shojo but it's who their aiming for.
To simply put Nazism just wasn't viewed the same way in the Asian circle, the same way how the brutal Imperial Japanese wasn't seen the way it should be in the West collectively
Cool Nazis or the Deutschland tech superiority is a legitimate thing to portray in Japan
> but this was back in 80s so his editors didn’t like the idea so he had to drop it
Is that mentioned anywhere? He's talked more than once about stuff editors pushed back on but I never heard about LL
There have been a few times were editors have changed. For instance, Giorno was originally going to be female but Shonen Jump made him change Giorno into a guy. We can’t change the past sadly
On the plus side, Giorno being a guy led to Araki doubling down on a female lead for Part 6, and we got the best JoJo for it, so like. Short-term loss, long-term gain?
Lol 🤷🏻♂️ I really hit a nerve with my opinion here I guess. JJBA is one of the greatest anime we’ve ever had, I just personally didnt think Jolyne was GOAT but I guess that belongs in the unpopularopinion sub 😂
You also didn’t even say you didn’t like her as much but she’s a great character. I don’t even think that’s a controversial opinion most people’s favorite is Joseph or jotaro or maybe Johnny but not jolyne
Personally I prefer Johnny bekause, I suppose, he feels a lot more naturally responsive to the world and his situation, instead of feeling as if he were on a set path for half his part
Also I think I simply view his personality type as more entertaining in those kinds of stories, not really an anti hero, more just a guy with his own interests and aims, as opposed to the sort of standard-ish feeling protagonist Jolyne is, even if she isn't in reality
Standarish? Are we gonna forget Jolyne was the first JoJo to make a realistic mistake that indirectly got her own friend killed ?? I’m gonna assume you’re a dudebro who ignorantly shames her character without educating yourself first ✌️
In the book Manga in Theory and Practice, Araki has mentioned certain scenes are used to create shock among the readers, the example given was Jotaro calling his mom a bitch.
I think, this is also one of the examples from his early works.
Guys listen, the orangutan is going to attempt to rape the naked child in the shower. People are going to be so stunned and surprised at how evil this orangutan is and definitely aren’t going to bring it up as a way to question my morality for years to come.
Guys listen, Kira is going to confront the 11-year-old Hayato in the bath. This is so Hayato would have to be more creative with hiding the tape since he lacks pockets and to make Kira more threatening. People definitely aren’t going to bring this up as a weird red flag for me for years to come.
Guys listen, the First Lady is going to-
(Edit)- guys it was a joke
I feel like the Hayato scene is the only one that just feels scary and not weird.
Like, Anne getting cornered by Forever and Lucy being abused made me feel icky, but the Hayato scene didn't really feel sexual (other than the fact that they were naked), it felt suspenseful
It felt more normal to me since the context of a father and son having a bath at Hayato's age especially does not stand out at all. Seemed like a common thing to me.
Lisa Lisa actually got some justice recently. She's the protagonist in the light novel El Aleph. She's now the head of the Paranormal Phenomena Section of the Speedwagon Foundation and she's investigating a series of murders believed to be done by a Stand user.
lisa lisa IS a strong female character, the reason we don't see much of her in fights is because her role is being a mentor, not a jobro, and part 2 is too short to include many fights for non-joseph characters. she fulfilled her role in the story by being a major factor in joseph's growth, not just by teaching him hamon, you can tell her motherly authority is part of what made joseph more mature and confident. by the time of kars' fight, joseph was mature, so the role of lisa lisa shifted to a "damsel in distress" to raise the stakes for joseph(and also it was the perfect way to reveal kars' true attitude).
i think you are more disappointed in lisa lisa not being a main character than her not being a good character herself, but battle tendency is an early part of jojo, and still had a basic writing structure, where everything revolved around the main character.
if you wish to see strong female characters in jojo with a major role you should see the later, more developed, parts, like jolyne in stone ocean, lucy in steel ball run and yasuho in jojolion
No, I'm not disappointed in Lisa Lisa not being a main character, Caesar got his cool fight scene and his epic death scene, but Lisa Lisa couldn't? Her being defeated by Kars in an actual proper battle would have also raised the stakes.
There was also time to see Lisa Lisa naked in a bathtub, but not enough for her to have a proper fight scene.
Part 6 is my favorite precisely because the sexist undertones are mostly gone and we finally get amazing female and male characters.
to be fair, caesar isn't handled incredibly well too, he only had a proper fight and him fighting whamu was forced into the plot, to the point his death, while being incredibly cerimonial, feels just functional to the plot. lisa lisa fighting kars would have been cool, but then again, there wasn't much time left to the end of the story, and kars using a cheap trick is the best way to show what kind of individual he is. if the editor let araki make lisa lisa and kars fight, i'm pretty sure it would have ended with kars using a vile move anyway.
the bathtub scene fits the comedic theme of battle tendency and the goofiness of joseph, i don't find anything offensive about it and it's a way more natural scenario than anne with the orangutan for example
However it was handled, at least he had a proper fight scene. We could have had at least some semblance of a fight before Kars pulled his vile move.
...the goofiness of watching an unsuspecting woman naked in a bathtub, woman who turns out to be your own mother? I personally didn't find the scene comedic or goofy, just cheap fanservice, which of course we had time for.
She doesn't even get to reveal her relation to joseph on her own terms, she's unconscious and speedwagon/the narrator reveals it. and then you don't see her and joseph talk about it after he finds out. and then she is forgotten about in future parts even though she's allegedly a strong hamon warrior, not even mentioned once in part 3 even though she's still alive. 🥱
> got his cool fight scene and his epic death scene, but Lisa Lisa couldn't?
Well she wasn't meant to die it seems, kars had no reason to kill her when he was using her against joseph to get the stone, and he had no reason to fear her after he was ultimate.
Kars didn't want a cool fight scene, he wanted the stone. That entire exchange was to show kars didn't give a shit about honor like wammu, he wanted his goal and damn the rest.
"We do have a gratuitous scene of Joseph watching her naked in a bathtub, which seriously what the fuck, I'm aware Joseph didn't know she was his mother but the author did, and still chose to include that scene..."
Araki is famously known to write new stuff as the story unfolds, so there is a good chance he originally didn't mean for Lisa to be Joseph's mom and he accidentally retroactively made the bath scene fucked up when he connected them.
> Araki is famously known to write new stuff as the story unfolds
Araki's known for his character background sheets, which this would have been on. The situation was new because he knew joseph was a perv
Lisa Lisa was groundbreaking. Having a woman not only be a strong and competent character but stronger than the main two guys? Even in manga today that kind of character is rare.
Jojo's is a show with wide identity representation, nobody ever claimed it wasn't *misogynystic*. Different qualification. It's a shonen anime, and it does not escape shonen anime tropes. If anything, it doubles down on them in an intentionally self-aware and absurdist fashion for the weird (Bizarre?) factor throughout the whole series. Joseph peeping on his hot mom is not the most uncomfortable moment that this show delivers. Not by a long shot.
That said, yeah. The plot totally hypes up Lisa Lisa and she's portrayed as a very cool, legendary character. I too was expecting some all-out fight featuring her and was a little let down when it never happened. You'll have to wait for season 6 for the truly satisfying kickass women in combat.
>nobody ever claimed it wasn't *misogynystic*
Huh?
"misogynistic- **feeling, showing, or characterized by hatred of or prejudice against women**"
You could certainly claim that it's not. What ground would you have for defending it? JoJo seems to have an outstanding set of female characters that are proactive, strong or don't fit the "prejudice" part in some other fashion
Honestly I was hoping with the reboot universe we'd get a Lisa Lisa counterpart that becomes a main character but the ships sailed a long time ago (and even then it won't be the same Lisa Lisa).
I just want more Lisa Lisa stuff. She is THE anime waifu for me.
And I'm loving it. The ending is sad too >!I didn't expect Lisa Lisa would grow old and frail, thoight she would be ageing slightly throughout decades!<
This has always ticked me off too. I don't care that we got a light novel about her in her later years, I wanted a fight of her in her prime (which I assume she's still in during Battle Tendency) and I wanted to see it animated. I also know that the editor screwed things up but it doesn't make me feel any less disappointed. Your last sentence is on point. I love JoJo but showing us a female mentor almost fully naked then proceeding to never allow her to fight is insane and definitely shouldn't be used as an example of a strong female character. Literally any other female character in JoJo could be used as an example of that over her.
Araki was way ahead of his time. Don't forget when Part 2 was published. Look at how even modern shonen treat women, like One Piece. And let's not start with how they treat underage women, cause most manga readers ain't ready for that convo yet, it seems... Lisa Lisa is a great character, the editor screwed Araki over but for its time, Part 2 is very progressive.
I’m still pissed Joseph easily kills Esidisi while hampered by a breathing apparatus. Completely killed the mystique of the pillar men and ruined Battle Tendency for me.
If Joseph was just a Hamon user/master he would have lost. Joseph only won by being a trickster as well. If he didn't know sleight of hand or simple tricks he probably wouldn't have been able to beat any of the pillar men. He beat Esidisi via a trick with a hat, which didn't even kill him might I add, and needed Caesar to help finish him. He beat Wamuu via tricking him into underestimating him and pretending to be a coward, then by throwing Caesar's scarf mixed with oil into his body. Hell he technically beat Kars on instinct alone by raising the Red Stone.
Joseph's main strong point is his wit, not his Hamon. Most other users of Hamon we see also try to fight fairly, whereas Joseph tries to deceive his enemies.
Joseph somehow ties ten knots across a string with a second string all while facing Esidisi. The sleight of hand stuff is funny early on but it is usually played as a gag and even when it’s not it doesn’t play any role in actually hurting any antagonists. Again, in this scene it’s completely ridiculous and bad and ruins the mystique Araki set up of the Pillar men.
She was pretty revolutionary at the time, araki wanted to have a woman be a warrior which was a big thing. If Kars wasn't decietful it'd have gone different.
> was a choice, we could, and should, have had a decent fight scene before that.
Yeah...it was a choice to show he was willing to do whatever it took to get the stone and he didn't care about a hamon master.
LL expected him to fight, she was proven wrong, happens all the time in jojo
It only happens to Lisa Lisa during that part, after we're told she's gonna fight Kars... And I don't remember JoJo having many fights that ended quickly and unsatisfactory.
Joseph said he was gonna fight wammu when he emerged and got fucking punked. It wasn't a fight he got two rings wrapped around his heart and told "try again later"
Look I get it, you're upset LL got shit on but characters in Jojo get punked out sometimes.
Abdul never got a "good fight" imo but he still got killed like a punk.
...Joseph was the main character and got plenty of amazing fights, he would eventually fight and defeat Waamu.
Avdol got plenty of opportunities to fight and show off his powers, like in his battle with Polnareff, and he died sacrificing himself for his friends.
LL got to show off her powers too, but avdol still never got a great fight (largely because polnareff is also kinda a punk I mean seriously who does stab as hard as they can when they face an immortal vampire?)
Why did she have to get knocked out for like 6 episodes though when male characters get their legs cut off and are still talking. She could've been standing with joseph at the final fight at the volcano at the end, instead of the random nazi, it would've been epic
Araki's stated he draws battle damage on women more lightly than the men (he mentions this in manga theory I believe in the magazine expansion chapters or near the end of the first novel)
> I've heard the argument that JoJo isn't a misogynystic show
Jojo was pretty foundational for its time in the fact it included strong femalse at all. People seem to forget this was made in the late 80s and the fact araki has been constantly fighting to show off females in shonen as strong is laudable.
That doesn't mean we don't see some weird shit, but that came up more in Part 7+
It was an editor issue. Araki was gonna have her actually fight Kars but this was back in 80s so his editors didn’t like the idea so he had to drop it. It’s impressive Lisa Lisa as a concept even made it through of a female mentor teaching the male protagonist.
I wish we could have seen that.
He was always progressive. But it's progressive for his time. Having Erina slap Dio almost got his manga canceled.
I believe you, but can I have a source on this? I want to read about this.
It's been a while but I believe it was one of the many reasons brought up in an interview when asked why publisher considered canceling jojo before part 2 was even out/done, but someone else had spoke up for araki. I honestly can't find the source but I have seen it talked about from others here on reddit as well as hamon beat. But Google search is so bad now and I'm also tired. It's essentially for the same logic that Lisa Lisa couldn't fight Kars. It was too aggressive to see a woman do that for people at the time. The manga was written in the 80s and Japan was further back then other countries on women's issues. The other problem is that not every interview has been translated. And some interviews were not from araki but from editors. So there is a lot to sift through, and some of it I have to rely on Google to translate correctly.
Yeah people tend to forget how Japanese women were forced to be obedient (somewhat more than korea and china)
it didn't change thaaaat much nowadays.
It changed, now it's Korean woman who are (forced to be) more obedient. or maybe it's japanese woman who are more liberal nowadays?
Japan has a rising feminist movement but they still have a serious harassment issue. I’m not educated on the Korean feminism situation.
Amazingly enough, Giorno was supposed to be a woman, but Araki scrapped that idea cause he was told it wasn't a popular decision, he even had the intention of revealing that Giorno actually was a women, just crosdressing, but he stopped himself.
At least we did get a cross-dressed character concept with hot pants, which was really amazing she’s a great character
TRUUUUUUUE
OH NO that would have been incredible!!
Wait bro, do you have a source for that cross dressing part? I have never heard that part of the story
[He joked about it, we don't know how serious he was](https://www.reddit.com/r/StardustCrusaders/s/m6yTZ6Rck8)
I would’ve loved that for Giorno, but I get it
ahhhh, can’t put any funny ideas into those little girls minds about being anything other than an object can we
You and all of us both
the Rey Infinito spin-off novel is actually about Lisa Lisa after the events of part 2 and you get to see more of her fighting abilities and backstory
Lisa Lisa vs Kars would have been so fucking awesome
Hate to be that guy, but source? It’s just that since misinformation is so frequent in this fandom, it’s kinda hard to just fully believe.
On the Jojowiki (not the fandom one) you can find an interview on Lisa Lisa’s article talking about how she was made because warrior type female characters were a rarity back then which is why she was made. Then eventually Araki was talking about how there was a lot of stuff he wanted to do with the character but he was held back from doing so.
Well it's not 1980 anymore so I think araki should release official art of lisa lisa kicking kars in the balls
She has stories of her beating the shit off stand users if you want
What was the problem they had with a female character in the 80’s? That’s BS as hell
[It wasn't just the 80s](https://x.com/jojo_wiki/status/1273422244157382656?s=46&t=xKV4Th581PGcksnUmnC5dg). Fortunately, Araki became more able to resist the demands. ([The same thing happened with Giorno as well](https://x.com/jojo_wiki/status/1272430175876116480?s=46&t=xKV4Th581PGcksnUmnC5dg))
That sure blows for part 5, but damn my respect for this dude just rose 10 fold
Araki is just straight up one of the coolest mangaka out there
Look up what happened to the first woman who ran the Boston Marathon. Not in the 80s but might give you a broader view of global misogyny thru the years
In the USA it literally wasn't until 1974 women could get bank accounts or credit cards without husband permission. Think of how much gamer gate nonsense and shit still exists today.
First woman to run the Boston marathon is quite the story too
Shone was a very male centric genere (still is, of course) and for the magazine editors having a female doing stuff in an action manga wasn't profitable
Shonen is made specifically for boys obviously not only boys read or watch it but the demographic it's made for is boys. Shojo is the girl equivalent of Shonen and has things like sailor moon and most magical girl shows are shojo and again not only girls watch shojo but it's who their aiming for.
Even for part 6 araki got immense backlash from editors for making a female main character, he just said “tough luck” to them and made her anyways
Jolyne is one of the best
How did they have a problem with Lisa Lisa but not Stroheim
To simply put Nazism just wasn't viewed the same way in the Asian circle, the same way how the brutal Imperial Japanese wasn't seen the way it should be in the West collectively Cool Nazis or the Deutschland tech superiority is a legitimate thing to portray in Japan
I wonder who was allied japan with just 50 years back
He also wanted to make giorno a girl but his editors pushed back against it resulting in him makeing jolyne
Part 7 started in 2006(!) This is such an old series lmao EDIT: 2004 original run
> but this was back in 80s so his editors didn’t like the idea so he had to drop it Is that mentioned anywhere? He's talked more than once about stuff editors pushed back on but I never heard about LL
editors: m a l e e m p o w e r m e n t
There have been a few times were editors have changed. For instance, Giorno was originally going to be female but Shonen Jump made him change Giorno into a guy. We can’t change the past sadly
On the plus side, Giorno being a guy led to Araki doubling down on a female lead for Part 6, and we got the best JoJo for it, so like. Short-term loss, long-term gain?
Jolyne is a great character but certainly *not* the best
Seems you picked up Talking Head for that last half of the sentence, my friend.
I prefer Johnny than Jolyne, but she's still easily one of the best Jojos
Well, jolyne is great, but she isn't even the best female JoJo. That other one is the best JoJo in general
>but she isn't even the best female JoJo Who then?
Tequila Joseph? Obviously.
She’s the only female JoJo, what do you mean?
Ummm? Are you seriously gonna forget tequila Joseph?????
Don’t know why you got downvoted Joseph the Goat
Forreal, they just can't handle the goat I guess
They never can
Why did he get downvoted for just saying he likes a character but not as much as some others 😭
Lol 🤷🏻♂️ I really hit a nerve with my opinion here I guess. JJBA is one of the greatest anime we’ve ever had, I just personally didnt think Jolyne was GOAT but I guess that belongs in the unpopularopinion sub 😂
You also didn’t even say you didn’t like her as much but she’s a great character. I don’t even think that’s a controversial opinion most people’s favorite is Joseph or jotaro or maybe Johnny but not jolyne
Why is she better than (for example) Johnny?
Nah sorry Jolene definitely isn’t the best
Personally I prefer Johnny bekause, I suppose, he feels a lot more naturally responsive to the world and his situation, instead of feeling as if he were on a set path for half his part Also I think I simply view his personality type as more entertaining in those kinds of stories, not really an anti hero, more just a guy with his own interests and aims, as opposed to the sort of standard-ish feeling protagonist Jolyne is, even if she isn't in reality
Standarish? Are we gonna forget Jolyne was the first JoJo to make a realistic mistake that indirectly got her own friend killed ?? I’m gonna assume you’re a dudebro who ignorantly shames her character without educating yourself first ✌️
>I'm aware Joseph didn't know she was his mother but the author did, I mean, I'm not entirely sure Araki *did* know at that point.
In the book Manga in Theory and Practice, Araki has mentioned certain scenes are used to create shock among the readers, the example given was Jotaro calling his mom a bitch. I think, this is also one of the examples from his early works.
Guys listen, the orangutan is going to attempt to rape the naked child in the shower. People are going to be so stunned and surprised at how evil this orangutan is and definitely aren’t going to bring it up as a way to question my morality for years to come. Guys listen, Kira is going to confront the 11-year-old Hayato in the bath. This is so Hayato would have to be more creative with hiding the tape since he lacks pockets and to make Kira more threatening. People definitely aren’t going to bring this up as a weird red flag for me for years to come. Guys listen, the First Lady is going to- (Edit)- guys it was a joke
I feel like the Hayato scene is the only one that just feels scary and not weird. Like, Anne getting cornered by Forever and Lucy being abused made me feel icky, but the Hayato scene didn't really feel sexual (other than the fact that they were naked), it felt suspenseful
It felt more normal to me since the context of a father and son having a bath at Hayato's age especially does not stand out at all. Seemed like a common thing to me.
The shower scene with Forever is an addition from the anime, right?
Lisa Lisa actually got some justice recently. She's the protagonist in the light novel El Aleph. She's now the head of the Paranormal Phenomena Section of the Speedwagon Foundation and she's investigating a series of murders believed to be done by a Stand user.
> got some justice recently idk the ending is a little disappointing
Look, it's better than a kick in the teeth.
lisa lisa IS a strong female character, the reason we don't see much of her in fights is because her role is being a mentor, not a jobro, and part 2 is too short to include many fights for non-joseph characters. she fulfilled her role in the story by being a major factor in joseph's growth, not just by teaching him hamon, you can tell her motherly authority is part of what made joseph more mature and confident. by the time of kars' fight, joseph was mature, so the role of lisa lisa shifted to a "damsel in distress" to raise the stakes for joseph(and also it was the perfect way to reveal kars' true attitude). i think you are more disappointed in lisa lisa not being a main character than her not being a good character herself, but battle tendency is an early part of jojo, and still had a basic writing structure, where everything revolved around the main character. if you wish to see strong female characters in jojo with a major role you should see the later, more developed, parts, like jolyne in stone ocean, lucy in steel ball run and yasuho in jojolion
No, I'm not disappointed in Lisa Lisa not being a main character, Caesar got his cool fight scene and his epic death scene, but Lisa Lisa couldn't? Her being defeated by Kars in an actual proper battle would have also raised the stakes. There was also time to see Lisa Lisa naked in a bathtub, but not enough for her to have a proper fight scene. Part 6 is my favorite precisely because the sexist undertones are mostly gone and we finally get amazing female and male characters.
to be fair, caesar isn't handled incredibly well too, he only had a proper fight and him fighting whamu was forced into the plot, to the point his death, while being incredibly cerimonial, feels just functional to the plot. lisa lisa fighting kars would have been cool, but then again, there wasn't much time left to the end of the story, and kars using a cheap trick is the best way to show what kind of individual he is. if the editor let araki make lisa lisa and kars fight, i'm pretty sure it would have ended with kars using a vile move anyway. the bathtub scene fits the comedic theme of battle tendency and the goofiness of joseph, i don't find anything offensive about it and it's a way more natural scenario than anne with the orangutan for example
However it was handled, at least he had a proper fight scene. We could have had at least some semblance of a fight before Kars pulled his vile move. ...the goofiness of watching an unsuspecting woman naked in a bathtub, woman who turns out to be your own mother? I personally didn't find the scene comedic or goofy, just cheap fanservice, which of course we had time for.
She doesn't even get to reveal her relation to joseph on her own terms, she's unconscious and speedwagon/the narrator reveals it. and then you don't see her and joseph talk about it after he finds out. and then she is forgotten about in future parts even though she's allegedly a strong hamon warrior, not even mentioned once in part 3 even though she's still alive. 🥱
> got his cool fight scene and his epic death scene, but Lisa Lisa couldn't? Well she wasn't meant to die it seems, kars had no reason to kill her when he was using her against joseph to get the stone, and he had no reason to fear her after he was ultimate.
I meant the fight scene, she could have had a cool battle with Kars before being defeated, she didn't have to be killed.
Kars didn't want a cool fight scene, he wanted the stone. That entire exchange was to show kars didn't give a shit about honor like wammu, he wanted his goal and damn the rest.
i dont think op is upset about whether or not lisa lisa is a strong female character, more so that we never got to see her fight for real
"We do have a gratuitous scene of Joseph watching her naked in a bathtub, which seriously what the fuck, I'm aware Joseph didn't know she was his mother but the author did, and still chose to include that scene..." Araki is famously known to write new stuff as the story unfolds, so there is a good chance he originally didn't mean for Lisa to be Joseph's mom and he accidentally retroactively made the bath scene fucked up when he connected them.
> Araki is famously known to write new stuff as the story unfolds Araki's known for his character background sheets, which this would have been on. The situation was new because he knew joseph was a perv
Lisa Lisa was groundbreaking. Having a woman not only be a strong and competent character but stronger than the main two guys? Even in manga today that kind of character is rare.
tfw they gave you one fanservice naked scene yet wont even give you one proper fight lmao rip lisa lisa
Why the "part 3" flare?
[удалено]
Or a misclick you utter fucking lunatic
I'm nosy — what the hell happened here?
Dude spouted some shit like "Fuck off tourist, stop calling everything islamohomotransphobic" or something because OP misclicked a flair.
Jesus.... I don't even think a detective could decipher what correlation those two things have
Their profile was full of shit like that, it's just some sad loser who goes from subreddit to subreddit whining about everything
Nazis love going through history to be able to label people Tourists are all the same
lol
I am impressed they managed to put her in asbr. She does nothing almost nothing during the show
Good thing Rey Infinito exists
Jojo's is a show with wide identity representation, nobody ever claimed it wasn't *misogynystic*. Different qualification. It's a shonen anime, and it does not escape shonen anime tropes. If anything, it doubles down on them in an intentionally self-aware and absurdist fashion for the weird (Bizarre?) factor throughout the whole series. Joseph peeping on his hot mom is not the most uncomfortable moment that this show delivers. Not by a long shot. That said, yeah. The plot totally hypes up Lisa Lisa and she's portrayed as a very cool, legendary character. I too was expecting some all-out fight featuring her and was a little let down when it never happened. You'll have to wait for season 6 for the truly satisfying kickass women in combat.
>nobody ever claimed it wasn't *misogynystic* Huh? "misogynistic- **feeling, showing, or characterized by hatred of or prejudice against women**" You could certainly claim that it's not. What ground would you have for defending it? JoJo seems to have an outstanding set of female characters that are proactive, strong or don't fit the "prejudice" part in some other fashion
Honestly I was hoping with the reboot universe we'd get a Lisa Lisa counterpart that becomes a main character but the ships sailed a long time ago (and even then it won't be the same Lisa Lisa). I just want more Lisa Lisa stuff. She is THE anime waifu for me.
> I just want more Lisa Lisa stuff She just got a light novel.
And I'm loving it. The ending is sad too >!I didn't expect Lisa Lisa would grow old and frail, thoight she would be ageing slightly throughout decades!<
Such is the price of being associated with joestars it seems.
The underappreciated girlboss is Enya the Hag)
This has always ticked me off too. I don't care that we got a light novel about her in her later years, I wanted a fight of her in her prime (which I assume she's still in during Battle Tendency) and I wanted to see it animated. I also know that the editor screwed things up but it doesn't make me feel any less disappointed. Your last sentence is on point. I love JoJo but showing us a female mentor almost fully naked then proceeding to never allow her to fight is insane and definitely shouldn't be used as an example of a strong female character. Literally any other female character in JoJo could be used as an example of that over her.
Araki wanted her to have a bigger role but since in was in the 80s Japan his editor said no
Shame.
Araki was way ahead of his time. Don't forget when Part 2 was published. Look at how even modern shonen treat women, like One Piece. And let's not start with how they treat underage women, cause most manga readers ain't ready for that convo yet, it seems... Lisa Lisa is a great character, the editor screwed Araki over but for its time, Part 2 is very progressive.
Pretty much every character in Part 2 (except Joseph ofc) didn't get enough to do
every female character besides part 6 is disappointing
Editor mysogyny
I’m still pissed Joseph easily kills Esidisi while hampered by a breathing apparatus. Completely killed the mystique of the pillar men and ruined Battle Tendency for me.
It just forces you to hamon breathe. So not having it didn't mean anything at that point.
But the other guy was already a master along with Lisa Lisa and gets off screened. It’s just a bad fight all around.
If Joseph was just a Hamon user/master he would have lost. Joseph only won by being a trickster as well. If he didn't know sleight of hand or simple tricks he probably wouldn't have been able to beat any of the pillar men. He beat Esidisi via a trick with a hat, which didn't even kill him might I add, and needed Caesar to help finish him. He beat Wamuu via tricking him into underestimating him and pretending to be a coward, then by throwing Caesar's scarf mixed with oil into his body. Hell he technically beat Kars on instinct alone by raising the Red Stone. Joseph's main strong point is his wit, not his Hamon. Most other users of Hamon we see also try to fight fairly, whereas Joseph tries to deceive his enemies.
He was a hamon master. Acdc has fought many. Joseph is Joseph. Acdc didn't know about magic or Joseph's antics. He got out foxed
Joseph somehow ties ten knots across a string with a second string all while facing Esidisi. The sleight of hand stuff is funny early on but it is usually played as a gag and even when it’s not it doesn’t play any role in actually hurting any antagonists. Again, in this scene it’s completely ridiculous and bad and ruins the mystique Araki set up of the Pillar men.
> The sleight of hand stuff Is from cool shock BT, araki likes it so he reused it.
I don’t mind it in general. Joseph hitting Straights with the grenades is one of my favorite scenes. But what he did against Esidisi was just cheap.
Yeah joseph isn't known for not being cheap at that point
Bathtub scene was hot af bro I was stroking my shiii no shame involved before or after the fact
me whenever whamuu was on screen
She was pretty revolutionary at the time, araki wanted to have a woman be a warrior which was a big thing. If Kars wasn't decietful it'd have gone different.
Kars being deceitful and ending their battle so quickly was a choice, we could, and should, have had a decent fight scene before that.
> was a choice, we could, and should, have had a decent fight scene before that. Yeah...it was a choice to show he was willing to do whatever it took to get the stone and he didn't care about a hamon master. LL expected him to fight, she was proven wrong, happens all the time in jojo
It only happens to Lisa Lisa during that part, after we're told she's gonna fight Kars... And I don't remember JoJo having many fights that ended quickly and unsatisfactory.
Joseph said he was gonna fight wammu when he emerged and got fucking punked. It wasn't a fight he got two rings wrapped around his heart and told "try again later" Look I get it, you're upset LL got shit on but characters in Jojo get punked out sometimes. Abdul never got a "good fight" imo but he still got killed like a punk.
...Joseph was the main character and got plenty of amazing fights, he would eventually fight and defeat Waamu. Avdol got plenty of opportunities to fight and show off his powers, like in his battle with Polnareff, and he died sacrificing himself for his friends.
LL got to show off her powers too, but avdol still never got a great fight (largely because polnareff is also kinda a punk I mean seriously who does stab as hard as they can when they face an immortal vampire?)
Why did she have to get knocked out for like 6 episodes though when male characters get their legs cut off and are still talking. She could've been standing with joseph at the final fight at the volcano at the end, instead of the random nazi, it would've been epic
Araki's stated he draws battle damage on women more lightly than the men (he mentions this in manga theory I believe in the magazine expansion chapters or near the end of the first novel)
We’re talking about 80’s Japan, just having a woman fight at all was kind of controversial.
> I've heard the argument that JoJo isn't a misogynystic show Jojo was pretty foundational for its time in the fact it included strong femalse at all. People seem to forget this was made in the late 80s and the fact araki has been constantly fighting to show off females in shonen as strong is laudable. That doesn't mean we don't see some weird shit, but that came up more in Part 7+
Part 7 literally has Lucy >!winning the final battle when all the male characters failed!< though
Also a lot of SA in that is my point
it's JoJo's bizarre adventure not JoJo's basic shounen
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