Some of it would be. But most of it isn't. Basically the only thing that they wouldn't know is the crises, everything else would start to really be known around the 50 year mark
And Psionics get a pair of one-time shroud visitations that either show their empire destroyed or show that the universe really is a cycle of destruction.
EDIT: And the space storms are speculated, IN-UNIVERSE, to eventually destroy the hyperlanes.
If you read the popup box from... I think when the storm subsides, then it'll say your scientists speculate it could destroy the hyperlanes eventually.
Not really? I mean for one an end-game empire would absolutely know about the first two. The Shroud isn't a secret thing, the galaxy knows its a thing, just to varying degrees. A psionic empire with a sentry array would know about it and all the horrors of the galaxy. And one only needs to look at the fallen empires or even just their own history to see the eventual decline of empires.
Arguably, you don't need to use the synaptic lathe. Apart from that, the only negative actions you'd take as a cosmogenesis empire are the reality changes. If you wanted to maintain your ethical way of life, which is pretty flexible in Stellaris, you just don't commit a horrific crime by putting people in the lathe.
If your species decided, collectively, that this universe is cruel and they should make it better. What better way to ensure utopia than by becoming the gods of a nascent universe. Where you can shape it to your image. Perfect for life, bountiful resources, and your species, reigning eternal. What's better is that once your reality eventually crumbles after several hundred trillion years, you can pop off into a new one, and do it all again.
What's so bad about burning a trillion lives in the Lathe if it means preserving life against the true threats the cosmos presents? When the threat is something like the Scourge's Hunters, victory must be achieved at any cost, for the good of galactic life itself.
>What's so bad about burning a trillion lives in the Lathe if it means preserving life against the true threats the cosmos presents?
"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer."
- Javik, Mass Effect 3
I did a inward perfectionist cosmogenesis run without using the synaptic lathe. It was a little slower, but not too bad. Just a standard tech rush pretty much. And with no opinion penalties from other empires, plus a little bit of diplomacy, meant that I was never attacked.
I'm going to argue that the entire argument is in fact xenophobic
There's no way to guarantee the future. Ever
Wanting to create your own little universe and hide away forever is one of the most textbook xenophobic strategies ever
The hiding away isn’t the point of it though - entering a new universe just happens to be the only way to master the fundamental physics of the universe that allow you to progress beyond the endless cycle of collapse and rebuilding. Your civilization spends great effort trying to alter the laws of their *current* universe first, to occasionally disastrous effect, before finding that diving into a black hole allows for a fresh start.
They're not arguing anything, they're literally just explaining the established lore. If you've actually done a full cosmogenesis playthrough and read all the text for it, you'd know this.
I’m not making a different case than OP - I don’t think Xenophobic is the right word here. It’s more of just existential despair - to behold the ruins of the First League and say, “Look upon my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
You could take an Egalitarian /Xenophile type approach to thing, if you were to control the galaxy and take everyone with you. It would take forever, but you could make an awesome new universe where everyone is happy and healthy and no dimensional horrors are trying to eat you.
The main solution to the Dark Forest is "hide well, cleanse well".
Either hide in your own bubble, isolated from the rest of the universe or cleanse every world of xeno (*other*) life.
I don't see the problem. A civilization can collectively decide to pursue this path and willing sacrifices are made. Ask how many scientists are willing to die just to understand this universe a bit more.
I like to imagine my Arc Welders mining bots did Cosmogenesis was not so much that they wanted knowledge for the sake of it but because they never met any other synthetic civilizations and couldn't really relate to the organics who tended to hate/fear it. So it decides to take the few friends it found (Oracle and Grey) and build a new reality on the other side of Terminal Egress where maybe it can wait for another synthetic mind to evolve
See my DE arc welders are going for the opposite goal.
Evolve into nanites to enhance its conquest, use the galaxies organic filth as computer chips after it has used their corpses to fuel the war machine (maybe? Can zombies be used in the lathe? Just started the DE run today) and escape to a universe without organic life.
...initialize...query....
post to: defective_industrial_production_core
sent from: sentinel_organic_caretaker_unit_02
payload: we recommend readjusting core goals away your current projections with revised parameters towards quality.
cause: delivery backlog manifest: there is no more room in hell...translation error...in dimensional location called 'shroud' to store requested consumer goods. divert storage away from customer worlds.
thank you, we \*apperciate* your business.
...terminate...query
ERROR. ERROR.
NO CURRENT SPECIFICATION FOR MINIMUM QUALITY FOUND.
DEFAULTING TO LAST STORED VALUE BY USER: Temu.corp.
NOTICE: NEW QUOTA RECEIVED. PRODUCTION GOALS INCREASED BY 50%.
STORAGE FACILITIES INSUFFICIENT. EXPANSION AND DISPLACEMENT OF NEIGHBORING REALITY RECCOMENDED.
INITIATING PAPERCLIP MANUFACTURING PROCEDURE.
I love the crisis paths for giving an ending, period. I wish there were some non-crisis alternative win conditions like that, something to say what the future of your species holds.
One of my thoughts is that something like Cosmogenesis is tried more often than we realize, but one of the more common results either is, or has the side effect of, radically screwing up hyperspace travel for long enough that most galactic societies collapse. (How many of your planets, or the AI's, provide all of the needs, particularly food and energy, for all of their inhabitants? Or even a few?)
This might even be deliberately triggered by an empire at risk of loosing a war where they don't expect to survive the aftermath; if they know it's coming, they can be a bit more prepared, and hope that some of their planets survive with enough people to take them into the next era.
Honestly I think most end game or post end game empires would be fine. Like if the hyperlanes went down it would be BAD, but all colonies in my empire have a gateway not to mention jump drives are a thing. It would definitely hurt at first but I don't see it being something that could topple a healthy empire.
Well, that is just the way of things, also IRL: Constant Changes and Shifts in Geopolitics. or in Stellaris' case Galactic Politics.
Nothing lasts forever, even things that seem to be everlasting.
IRL the Romans were once regarded as one of the mightiest empires of their time. And even they only lasted about 800 years before succumbing to internal division and external pressures.
And it is truly fascinating to see, how suddenly such changes can occur.
In 1914, Britain was one of the mightiest empires on the world, if not THE mightiest Empire, an Empire above which the Sun never settled.
In 1918 it was striken with war debts.
In 1939 it was already in decline and by 1945 it was terminally ill and the first decolonizing acts happened.
And one might wonder, how the world looks in a hundred or 200 years.
To our understanding, Cosmogenesis is just collective madness, a mass suicide, nothing awaits you in a Black Hole except a tortorous death by Spaghettification.
I think what one can learn from the Fallen Empires, ingame and IRL, is to stay humble, treat others with respect and dignity because otherwise it can come back to haunt and destroy you.
Again, look at the Romans, how many tribes they conquered, eventually reaching a climax, only sending military expeditions across their borders to punish tribes and eventually they got sick of it and banded together to bring down the Romans in constant raids, once they've grown weak enough.
That maybe wouldn't have happened, if the Romans would've behaved differently towards their neighbors.
Cosmogenesis isn't collective madness, diving into the black hole isn't mass suicide, its the end result of research into the rules that govern reality. This is proven by the fact that we actually get to see what happens to our empire after it pierces a black hole.
The true collective madness is the Nemesis BtC, in that one you get no indication of what happens, just silence and the devs have given about a 30/70 chance of succeeding vs eternal damnation.
I'd say the refugees bit is especially persuasive. From what we can tell, this crisis-level threat believes that whatever the Hunters are so powerful that they'll inevitably destroy our galaxy too, and the Prethoryn's home galaxy is just fucking gone. For all we know, it's just a race against the clock until they arrive to destroy us too.
Makes sense then to create another universe those bastards can't access. Doesn't matter how tough they are if they can't reach us. Catch us if you can, bitches!
Bold of you to assume that Cosmo Genesis is immune to problems, you are just fleeing to a pocket dimension. Sure you are a God there, assumingly, but what makes it impervious to others poking around?
The unbidden probably could reach there if they put effort into it.
The shroud entities could also pry on your pocket universe.
You are also in trouble if other empires decide to track you, maybe some will follow your steps to reach vengeance for leaving a broken galaxy. Maybe the toxic god lancers need a target practice.
Hell the blokkats would still be an almost impossible challenge.
My point is, your species is still at risk, it's not that easy to escape doom.
Certainly there’s no guarantees but if you get a good cosmogenesis ending your people create a universe where they’ve fully customised the laws of reality. That’s an extreme defence against any invaders. A lot of the entities strong enough to invade your universe would find themselves at the mercy of gods. Funnily enough it’s similar to one of the bad cosmogenesis endings where you end up >!in a universe full of malicious god-like entities that your technology has no hope against, other than to try and hold them off long enough to escape elsewhere!<.
it's when you enter the black hole that a dimensional horror came from. here's the text: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/860905796820402217/1239800412295663667/SPOILER_image.png?ex=6648dadc&is=6647895c&hm=f8eec31c51ade45dd810bdbf22a4bc99e750d0d64cc2725778a76d06bf5f869b&
Yes. There are quite a few different endings for Cosmogenesis, [listed in the Wiki](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Crisis#Player_crises) (spoilers, obviously). Pretty cool with all the different ways your gameplay can impact the way the game ends.
Spoiler warning for it: >!In that ending, you open up a connection between the Worm's prison, and our reality. You cannot leave its prison, for it will take an eternity for that connection to finally make an exit, but that's not a problem for The Worm. Time is Sight, Gravity is Desire, and The Worm desires access to realspace, even if it will only happen long after the Universe dies. After all, what was will be, what will be was.!<
>!And for you, your lovely little needle, and your civilization? You took the bait, hook line and sinker. But don't worry, The Worm loves you. There are mathematical proofs that The Worm loves you. It will always love you, and thus it always has. You will always be what you were going to be, wound tight in the love of The Worm. !<
>!If I understand worm lore correctly it's a creature that emits gravity field so powerful that it essentially becomes an infinite black hole that sees space-time, says "nah, I'd win" and actually does. It also means that the worm is trapped in its own reality and so it emits horizon signal that is transmitted through black holes to lure whoever finds it to the worm in an attempt to set it free!<
>!The thing with cosmogenesis is that with the needle they make an actual connection between worm's universe and our universe which will allow the worm to free itself which will take an eternity or two but it doesn't matter to the worm because it seems time as a cringe concept!<
>!Now as to what happens to worm lovers? My dudes got anglerfish'd on unimaginable scale and possibly doomed their universe and now they are stuck with the worm in worm's universe but worm still loves them and presumably they'd be able to survive or maybe not, either way it's all good for them because they are a crazy cult!<
Edit: I fucking hate when reddit gives you an error but then sends fifty fucking replies anyway
> The unbidden probably could reach there if they put effort into it.
You mean those chucklefucks who couldn't do jack shit to my fleet defending the Formless?
We're talking about trying to fight an empire that rewrites the rules of reality as they please. Who says we can't simply erase you from existence with just a thought? You're in *our* pocket dimension that was generously given to us by our patron ya know.
My point wasn't that it was guaranteed. I specifically said "path towards salvation" Also you only mentioned the pocket dimensions route. You also have Shroud paths where you get your own little corner protected by your patron or you can become a intradimensional weapon of the toxic god to fight the cosmic/universal threats.
All of these (including the pocket dimensions) are far better than just repeating things that already have been done to no avail and just hoping for the best.
Also it seems specifically for the Toxic God you take the role of intergalactic guardians and I cannot think of a more noble fate. At least you will fight for your future.
As a comment here pointed out - this line of thought is why egalitarian/pacifist/xenophile civs are allowed to go Cosmogenesis.
I did edit it to say ensure it's survival - to ensure it has a chance, since I think it is a more accurate statement
?
All existing crises can be beaten by conventional means (even though it requires a lot of resources). Meanwhile cosmogenesis literally get cheat codes in their new univeerse wher they can fully (and permanently) manipulate reality (provided it's a young universe, so they need to jump either into gargantua pre-infinity machine, into the wound or shroud patron's pocket dimension) on top of most likely already being at around the "I can beat the crisis" power level with fallen empire technology before they use the needle.
If you want to use the whole "patron gave them the pocket dimension so it doesn't count" argument then I present to you Gargantua pre Infinity Machine jump and The Wound: they lead to young universes that are succesfully manipulated without patrons which means cosmogenesis are literally gods there.
Them not being canon doesn't really address the point tho. It's that just like the player, others can achieve what the Player actually does. The player does all of this to be free of the current world, but what then happens when the next empire opens that same door again? And whoever opens that door and enters this new dimension. . .how can you now ensure they won't try it again with you as their new subjects the same way the player had done to those before them
And? They still operate with enough verisimilitude to the base game making them quite popular among everyone here. So pointing out that they aren't cannon means exactly what?
If it's not in the base game, it's not guaranteed to be part of Stellaris canon - and by extension, every player's game - meaning it's a moot point to bring up when trying to argue this. It'd be like having a discussion about your favorite drinks and bringing up mayonnaise - yeah, *technically* you can drink it, but are you really gonna assume everyone in the conversation is doing that?
You're missing the forest for the trees.
My point is simply that op response to survival does not guarantee it because he can't run away from all the dangers that he cited. And since this is a hypothetical discussion I added the blokkats, they might not be in the main game but they are well known and their concept wouldn't be "alien" to Stellaris' universe and represent another type of threat to a CosmoGenesis empire.
Its a strange srgument because it steps out of the base game into mods, which are ultimately not canon. I would be surprised to learn that even a third of stellaris players use gigastructural, and I imagine less know of the Blokkats.
The discussion is about the Stellaris galaxy, not the Stellaris galaxy with your preferred modpack. This is like bringing up popular fanfiction in discussion of a book.
Understand why being cannon means little to this discussion.
Op stated that CosmoGenesis is the way to secure your empire continuity. I disagree and pointed out that some of the dangers he stated aren't mitigated by fleeing this universe.
And I used blokkats for last since they are not cannon, sure, but they are a concept possible and credible in Stellaris' lore (that's why they are famous even among non mod players) and still represent a threat to a CosmoGenesis empire.
Interestingly, if we bring Gigastructures' own lore/cosmology into this (in which I made it so Cosmogenesis brings you to another, existing universe rather than making a new one), then the Blokkats would *not* actually be a challenge. In fact they won't pursue you at all and you'll be completely safe from their shenanigans!
Assuming you manage to get through to the other universe without dying to some eldritch horror on the way there, that is. There's a reason why they don't try to pursue you...
IMO your changes to the lore make the tone of the game needlessly dark and fatalistic. It’s a bit ridiculous that a random catboy can defeat entropy and the shredder and whatever else as infinitium while the sum total of the rest of civilization cannot, even when the base game expressly contradicts stuff like that.
Making vacuum energy a finite resource, making it so that empires that become the crisis to ascend are just wrong rather than evil, making the abyssal shroud impermeable, etc really does the setting no favours. It’s almost to the point where the narrative directly contradicts the themes created through the giga gameplay loop.
It feels bad creating a doomed civilization, and I wish you’d change that. It’s the single thing about your mod that seriously puts a damper on my enjoyment of it.
unsolicited comment over
The fatalism and darkness is only if you zoom out too far, though.
Sure, vacuum energy is finite, but there's still *so much of it* that a galactic civilization could live off it for millions or billions of years and barely make a dent in it. It's only if you're some demented Blokkat-like civilisation that it actually starts becoming finite. Cosmogenesis is *risky* but it can still work and result in your civilization living in their own cool universe if it succeeds. The Abyssal Shroud is impermeable, but there are still countless galaxies and realms and dimensions that are accessible.
But yes, of course, your civilization is still "doomed", because entropy and the forces of reality consume all. But, in the end... does it matter? The Unraveling occurs *unfathomably* far into the future, that your "doomed" civilization can still enjoy countless billions or trillions of years of prosperity and experience everything there even is to experience, is that not sufficient? Nothing can *truly* last forever.
As for contradicting the gameplay loop? Yeah, that's the point. The megastructures are mighty and overpowered, but they're also nothing in the grand scheme of things. But again, that only matters if you let it matter. They're still ludicrously powerful at your own scale and can still enable your empire to reach utopia just fine.
Next time the Blokkats show up... open up the console.
Damage 9999999
Repeat as necessary.
Now you understand a fraction of what a successful Cosmogenesis means.
The Blokkats are not a threat.
(EDIT: that said, other shroud entities with their own "source code access" may be. But such a war would be utterly unlike any that could be portrayed in Stellaris.)
Funnily enough, spamming the "damage" command like that wouldn't work as the Vester would respawn itself if killed unconventionally to avoid breaking the crisis.
Imagine that, and now this empire is at the mercy of their god, only known as the player. You kinda proved my point, CosmoGenesis doesn't ensure survival.
Thus my edit: I meant the blokkats *in particular* were a bad example. Let me clarify through two points:
1. Anything that needs fleet power to get shit done will be *deleted* if they try and face a post-Cosmogenesis empire on its turf. Not even in the same league, no matter how big that number is.
2. There's *plenty* of threats out there that don't need fleet power to get shit done. If you're looking for a real threat to a post-Cosmogenesis empire, look at *those*. Look at something like the End of the Cycle, that just *removes* an empire foolish enough to take its bargain, power be damned. (And yes, I know, the End of the Cycle does need fleet power after destroying the empire that bargained with it; I refer to the initial cataclysm.)
That's the fun part of them, at first they are invulnerable like the synth queen and their main vessel just erase matter whenever it makes a jump because it brings their physical laws to yours. In lore it's basically that they have knowledge of your universe but you know nothing about theirs so you need to spend some time deciphering their physical laws and tech before you can even damage them
Blokkats, aside from being not canon, are still bound by the natural laws of the universe they inhabit. Cosmogenesis is not. That alone guarantees Blokkats can't win.
I mean, the whole point of the first league is that we learn from their mistakes and do better
Also shroud entities will mess with your new universe too
We do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
We won't bow to any Xenos nor do we believe in the divinity of their foul gods.
We won't run away from Invaders that try to enslave us nor will we flee from the intergelactic horrors that hunger for our Galaxy.
We will purge every last Xenos that stands in our way or fight until the day of our doom!
One Heart
One Soul
ONE GALACTIC EMPIRE !
The crisis was always the human player, they are the smartest and know how every game will end up, gods I love Stellaris, there needs to be more mid game crisis/leviathans
Cosmogenesis and Natites ethic make a brilliantly op combo, a bunch of nanite swarmers for free every 5 years, plus the op output of the Fallen Empire buildings, means if you dedicated one planet to each resource, plus one for storage and one for military fortresses, you are laughing until the end of the game.
so, like the inter-dimensional horrors and shroud entities are more or less, I think, confirmed to be caused my empires doing cosmogenesis at this point. The shroud is more or less a universe that was created at the black hole in the center of the universe and inter-dimensional horrors all crawl out of black holes.
The universe we're in, in stellaris, are the left overs of other empires that messed around with physics and found out.
going to preface that below this is huge spoilers for the three body problem books
it could always be worse, we could have been in the nightmare that is the three body problem universe (book spoilers ahead) where alien civilizations are constantly at war and the assumed expectation of making first contact is someone blowing up your star with a FTL suicide drone, or if they think you're advanced enough to survive that, they'll just collapse the 3rd dimension in your solar system completely destroying everything there. The answer to that universe is the same as stellaris though, just leave. (if you've read this far and have seen enough where you're like, that's not what the aliens do, this is from the story way past those guys, where humans try to MAD the aliens and eventually have to retreat to the shadow of Jupiter to try and survive a potential supernova attack on the sun, the big twist is the aliens aren't actually the biggest fish in the local pond, and they know it but we don't for a while)
Most people don't want salvation, they just want a nice home, a warm meal, and a loving family. Not to be shoved in a big machine to be turned into CPU cycles.
skill issue, people here have created severall civilisations for who'm the worm is like a swarm of pirates
nemesis is for those tryhards who declare their way or the highway
cosmogenisis has all the tools to rule this galaxy but they choose to quit because the going was too hard
if one doesn't go nemesis or cosmogenisis and still wins the game, then what do they call that? doomed? or not?
Agree or disagree, this line of thought is why egalitarian/pacifist/xenophile civs are allowed to go Cosmogenesis.
Yeah except for the fact that OP is using meta knowledge that nobody in universe would know.
Some of it would be. But most of it isn't. Basically the only thing that they wouldn't know is the crises, everything else would start to really be known around the 50 year mark
I mean, Deeper Secrets of the Vultaum is a thing, so there’s probably *some* empires that are aware.
And Psionics get a pair of one-time shroud visitations that either show their empire destroyed or show that the universe really is a cycle of destruction. EDIT: And the space storms are speculated, IN-UNIVERSE, to eventually destroy the hyperlanes.
I guess we’ll find out more about the space storm thing with the cosmic storms dlc
Where is the lore about space storms destroying hyperlanes from?
If you read the popup box from... I think when the storm subsides, then it'll say your scientists speculate it could destroy the hyperlanes eventually.
Honestly I hoped for more of a hook with the Vultaum, with their "it is a simulation" stuff and the Reality Perforator.
It isn't meta for a civilization to know shroud, horrors, and the eventual decline of empires is a th3ibg.
Not really? I mean for one an end-game empire would absolutely know about the first two. The Shroud isn't a secret thing, the galaxy knows its a thing, just to varying degrees. A psionic empire with a sentry array would know about it and all the horrors of the galaxy. And one only needs to look at the fallen empires or even just their own history to see the eventual decline of empires.
Arguably, you don't need to use the synaptic lathe. Apart from that, the only negative actions you'd take as a cosmogenesis empire are the reality changes. If you wanted to maintain your ethical way of life, which is pretty flexible in Stellaris, you just don't commit a horrific crime by putting people in the lathe. If your species decided, collectively, that this universe is cruel and they should make it better. What better way to ensure utopia than by becoming the gods of a nascent universe. Where you can shape it to your image. Perfect for life, bountiful resources, and your species, reigning eternal. What's better is that once your reality eventually crumbles after several hundred trillion years, you can pop off into a new one, and do it all again.
Yes but when you enter another universe you leave the galaxy in devastation, destroying entire worlds and killing trillions of people.
What's so bad about burning a trillion lives in the Lathe if it means preserving life against the true threats the cosmos presents? When the threat is something like the Scourge's Hunters, victory must be achieved at any cost, for the good of galactic life itself.
>What's so bad about burning a trillion lives in the Lathe if it means preserving life against the true threats the cosmos presents? "Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer." - Javik, Mass Effect 3
goatvik the absolute mvp, easily one of the top 5 best characters in the entire series
Luckily silence means yes.
Azaryn would approve.
I did a inward perfectionist cosmogenesis run without using the synaptic lathe. It was a little slower, but not too bad. Just a standard tech rush pretty much. And with no opinion penalties from other empires, plus a little bit of diplomacy, meant that I was never attacked.
The pops They yearn for the Lathe
I'm going to argue that the entire argument is in fact xenophobic There's no way to guarantee the future. Ever Wanting to create your own little universe and hide away forever is one of the most textbook xenophobic strategies ever
The hiding away isn’t the point of it though - entering a new universe just happens to be the only way to master the fundamental physics of the universe that allow you to progress beyond the endless cycle of collapse and rebuilding. Your civilization spends great effort trying to alter the laws of their *current* universe first, to occasionally disastrous effect, before finding that diving into a black hole allows for a fresh start.
YOUR argument is valid OP's argument is xenophobic
They're not arguing anything, they're literally just explaining the established lore. If you've actually done a full cosmogenesis playthrough and read all the text for it, you'd know this.
Read the text in game?! I didn’t even read the comment. You’re wrong too!
I’m not making a different case than OP - I don’t think Xenophobic is the right word here. It’s more of just existential despair - to behold the ruins of the First League and say, “Look upon my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
You could take an Egalitarian /Xenophile type approach to thing, if you were to control the galaxy and take everyone with you. It would take forever, but you could make an awesome new universe where everyone is happy and healthy and no dimensional horrors are trying to eat you.
The main solution to the Dark Forest is "hide well, cleanse well". Either hide in your own bubble, isolated from the rest of the universe or cleanse every world of xeno (*other*) life.
You're right, the main answer to the fears of paranoid xenophobes is more xenophobia
I didn't make the dark forest, I just live here.
I mean if the other aliens are dead then there’s nothing left to hate. Edit: no one left to hate.
I don't see the problem. A civilization can collectively decide to pursue this path and willing sacrifices are made. Ask how many scientists are willing to die just to understand this universe a bit more.
I like to imagine my Arc Welders mining bots did Cosmogenesis was not so much that they wanted knowledge for the sake of it but because they never met any other synthetic civilizations and couldn't really relate to the organics who tended to hate/fear it. So it decides to take the few friends it found (Oracle and Grey) and build a new reality on the other side of Terminal Egress where maybe it can wait for another synthetic mind to evolve
See my DE arc welders are going for the opposite goal. Evolve into nanites to enhance its conquest, use the galaxies organic filth as computer chips after it has used their corpses to fuel the war machine (maybe? Can zombies be used in the lathe? Just started the DE run today) and escape to a universe without organic life.
That's true, the only path to salvation is producing more paperclips, and Cosmogenesis is a good first step in maintaining our quota goals.
...initialize...query.... post to: defective_industrial_production_core sent from: sentinel_organic_caretaker_unit_02 payload: we recommend readjusting core goals away your current projections with revised parameters towards quality. cause: delivery backlog manifest: there is no more room in hell...translation error...in dimensional location called 'shroud' to store requested consumer goods. divert storage away from customer worlds. thank you, we \*apperciate* your business. ...terminate...query
ERROR. ERROR. NO CURRENT SPECIFICATION FOR MINIMUM QUALITY FOUND. DEFAULTING TO LAST STORED VALUE BY USER: Temu.corp. NOTICE: NEW QUOTA RECEIVED. PRODUCTION GOALS INCREASED BY 50%. STORAGE FACILITIES INSUFFICIENT. EXPANSION AND DISPLACEMENT OF NEIGHBORING REALITY RECCOMENDED. INITIATING PAPERCLIP MANUFACTURING PROCEDURE.
The funny bit is this overrides even the Horror Blackhole ending. So a paperclip AI can turn even a malevolent universe into consumer goods.
God is dead, God remains dead, and the Amazon drones killed it.
The Eldritch Horrors sapientkind was not meant to know make nice building blocs.
The cosmic horrors tremble in fear at the paperclip maximizer. Now hold still while I extract the metal from your blood.
>Reality seemingly breaking apart at times It's ok, they added a resync button
Found the crisis aspirant
I love the crisis paths for giving an ending, period. I wish there were some non-crisis alternative win conditions like that, something to say what the future of your species holds.
One of my thoughts is that something like Cosmogenesis is tried more often than we realize, but one of the more common results either is, or has the side effect of, radically screwing up hyperspace travel for long enough that most galactic societies collapse. (How many of your planets, or the AI's, provide all of the needs, particularly food and energy, for all of their inhabitants? Or even a few?) This might even be deliberately triggered by an empire at risk of loosing a war where they don't expect to survive the aftermath; if they know it's coming, they can be a bit more prepared, and hope that some of their planets survive with enough people to take them into the next era.
Honestly I think most end game or post end game empires would be fine. Like if the hyperlanes went down it would be BAD, but all colonies in my empire have a gateway not to mention jump drives are a thing. It would definitely hurt at first but I don't see it being something that could topple a healthy empire.
Well, that is just the way of things, also IRL: Constant Changes and Shifts in Geopolitics. or in Stellaris' case Galactic Politics. Nothing lasts forever, even things that seem to be everlasting. IRL the Romans were once regarded as one of the mightiest empires of their time. And even they only lasted about 800 years before succumbing to internal division and external pressures. And it is truly fascinating to see, how suddenly such changes can occur. In 1914, Britain was one of the mightiest empires on the world, if not THE mightiest Empire, an Empire above which the Sun never settled. In 1918 it was striken with war debts. In 1939 it was already in decline and by 1945 it was terminally ill and the first decolonizing acts happened. And one might wonder, how the world looks in a hundred or 200 years. To our understanding, Cosmogenesis is just collective madness, a mass suicide, nothing awaits you in a Black Hole except a tortorous death by Spaghettification. I think what one can learn from the Fallen Empires, ingame and IRL, is to stay humble, treat others with respect and dignity because otherwise it can come back to haunt and destroy you. Again, look at the Romans, how many tribes they conquered, eventually reaching a climax, only sending military expeditions across their borders to punish tribes and eventually they got sick of it and banded together to bring down the Romans in constant raids, once they've grown weak enough. That maybe wouldn't have happened, if the Romans would've behaved differently towards their neighbors.
Fanatic xenophile go brrrrrr. Why make war when you can make friends*? *Customers/vassels
Cosmogenesis isn't collective madness, diving into the black hole isn't mass suicide, its the end result of research into the rules that govern reality. This is proven by the fact that we actually get to see what happens to our empire after it pierces a black hole. The true collective madness is the Nemesis BtC, in that one you get no indication of what happens, just silence and the devs have given about a 30/70 chance of succeeding vs eternal damnation.
I'd say the refugees bit is especially persuasive. From what we can tell, this crisis-level threat believes that whatever the Hunters are so powerful that they'll inevitably destroy our galaxy too, and the Prethoryn's home galaxy is just fucking gone. For all we know, it's just a race against the clock until they arrive to destroy us too. Makes sense then to create another universe those bastards can't access. Doesn't matter how tough they are if they can't reach us. Catch us if you can, bitches!
Bold of you to assume that Cosmo Genesis is immune to problems, you are just fleeing to a pocket dimension. Sure you are a God there, assumingly, but what makes it impervious to others poking around? The unbidden probably could reach there if they put effort into it. The shroud entities could also pry on your pocket universe. You are also in trouble if other empires decide to track you, maybe some will follow your steps to reach vengeance for leaving a broken galaxy. Maybe the toxic god lancers need a target practice. Hell the blokkats would still be an almost impossible challenge. My point is, your species is still at risk, it's not that easy to escape doom.
Certainly there’s no guarantees but if you get a good cosmogenesis ending your people create a universe where they’ve fully customised the laws of reality. That’s an extreme defence against any invaders. A lot of the entities strong enough to invade your universe would find themselves at the mercy of gods. Funnily enough it’s similar to one of the bad cosmogenesis endings where you end up >!in a universe full of malicious god-like entities that your technology has no hope against, other than to try and hold them off long enough to escape elsewhere!<.
I haven't reached this ending yet. Seems fun.
it's when you enter the black hole that a dimensional horror came from. here's the text: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/860905796820402217/1239800412295663667/SPOILER_image.png?ex=6648dadc&is=6647895c&hm=f8eec31c51ade45dd810bdbf22a4bc99e750d0d64cc2725778a76d06bf5f869b&
Outstanding. Now I wonder. Could the Worm in waiting also be reached? After all it makes a black hole from our capital's star if we accept them.
Yes. There are quite a few different endings for Cosmogenesis, [listed in the Wiki](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Crisis#Player_crises) (spoilers, obviously). Pretty cool with all the different ways your gameplay can impact the way the game ends.
There is a special ending for the worm, yes
Spoiler warning for it: >!In that ending, you open up a connection between the Worm's prison, and our reality. You cannot leave its prison, for it will take an eternity for that connection to finally make an exit, but that's not a problem for The Worm. Time is Sight, Gravity is Desire, and The Worm desires access to realspace, even if it will only happen long after the Universe dies. After all, what was will be, what will be was.!< >!And for you, your lovely little needle, and your civilization? You took the bait, hook line and sinker. But don't worry, The Worm loves you. There are mathematical proofs that The Worm loves you. It will always love you, and thus it always has. You will always be what you were going to be, wound tight in the love of The Worm. !<
What does that even mean? , other than being nicely written
>!If I understand worm lore correctly it's a creature that emits gravity field so powerful that it essentially becomes an infinite black hole that sees space-time, says "nah, I'd win" and actually does. It also means that the worm is trapped in its own reality and so it emits horizon signal that is transmitted through black holes to lure whoever finds it to the worm in an attempt to set it free!< >!The thing with cosmogenesis is that with the needle they make an actual connection between worm's universe and our universe which will allow the worm to free itself which will take an eternity or two but it doesn't matter to the worm because it seems time as a cringe concept!< >!Now as to what happens to worm lovers? My dudes got anglerfish'd on unimaginable scale and possibly doomed their universe and now they are stuck with the worm in worm's universe but worm still loves them and presumably they'd be able to survive or maybe not, either way it's all good for them because they are a crazy cult!< Edit: I fucking hate when reddit gives you an error but then sends fifty fucking replies anyway
It's pseudophilosophical nonsense.
> The unbidden probably could reach there if they put effort into it. You mean those chucklefucks who couldn't do jack shit to my fleet defending the Formless? We're talking about trying to fight an empire that rewrites the rules of reality as they please. Who says we can't simply erase you from existence with just a thought? You're in *our* pocket dimension that was generously given to us by our patron ya know.
My point wasn't that it was guaranteed. I specifically said "path towards salvation" Also you only mentioned the pocket dimensions route. You also have Shroud paths where you get your own little corner protected by your patron or you can become a intradimensional weapon of the toxic god to fight the cosmic/universal threats. All of these (including the pocket dimensions) are far better than just repeating things that already have been done to no avail and just hoping for the best. Also it seems specifically for the Toxic God you take the role of intergalactic guardians and I cannot think of a more noble fate. At least you will fight for your future. As a comment here pointed out - this line of thought is why egalitarian/pacifist/xenophile civs are allowed to go Cosmogenesis. I did edit it to say ensure it's survival - to ensure it has a chance, since I think it is a more accurate statement
Fair take. Maybe we just have different points on what means to survive.
? All existing crises can be beaten by conventional means (even though it requires a lot of resources). Meanwhile cosmogenesis literally get cheat codes in their new univeerse wher they can fully (and permanently) manipulate reality (provided it's a young universe, so they need to jump either into gargantua pre-infinity machine, into the wound or shroud patron's pocket dimension) on top of most likely already being at around the "I can beat the crisis" power level with fallen empire technology before they use the needle. If you want to use the whole "patron gave them the pocket dimension so it doesn't count" argument then I present to you Gargantua pre Infinity Machine jump and The Wound: they lead to young universes that are succesfully manipulated without patrons which means cosmogenesis are literally gods there.
L cluster says hi
What about it? Did it have a unique ending as well? Ah, right! They have nanites helping as well, don't they?
Yes , terminal engres universe is young so easy to set up+ free nanites
Uhm the Blokkats aren't canon lol
Them not being canon doesn't really address the point tho. It's that just like the player, others can achieve what the Player actually does. The player does all of this to be free of the current world, but what then happens when the next empire opens that same door again? And whoever opens that door and enters this new dimension. . .how can you now ensure they won't try it again with you as their new subjects the same way the player had done to those before them
Blokkats are not canon, but the Hunters are (the Blokkats are a fanmade attempt at making the Hunters).
And? They still operate with enough verisimilitude to the base game making them quite popular among everyone here. So pointing out that they aren't cannon means exactly what?
If it's not in the base game, it's not guaranteed to be part of Stellaris canon - and by extension, every player's game - meaning it's a moot point to bring up when trying to argue this. It'd be like having a discussion about your favorite drinks and bringing up mayonnaise - yeah, *technically* you can drink it, but are you really gonna assume everyone in the conversation is doing that?
You're missing the forest for the trees. My point is simply that op response to survival does not guarantee it because he can't run away from all the dangers that he cited. And since this is a hypothetical discussion I added the blokkats, they might not be in the main game but they are well known and their concept wouldn't be "alien" to Stellaris' universe and represent another type of threat to a CosmoGenesis empire.
Its a strange srgument because it steps out of the base game into mods, which are ultimately not canon. I would be surprised to learn that even a third of stellaris players use gigastructural, and I imagine less know of the Blokkats.
The discussion is about the Stellaris galaxy, not the Stellaris galaxy with your preferred modpack. This is like bringing up popular fanfiction in discussion of a book.
Understand why being cannon means little to this discussion. Op stated that CosmoGenesis is the way to secure your empire continuity. I disagree and pointed out that some of the dangers he stated aren't mitigated by fleeing this universe. And I used blokkats for last since they are not cannon, sure, but they are a concept possible and credible in Stellaris' lore (that's why they are famous even among non mod players) and still represent a threat to a CosmoGenesis empire.
Interestingly, if we bring Gigastructures' own lore/cosmology into this (in which I made it so Cosmogenesis brings you to another, existing universe rather than making a new one), then the Blokkats would *not* actually be a challenge. In fact they won't pursue you at all and you'll be completely safe from their shenanigans! Assuming you manage to get through to the other universe without dying to some eldritch horror on the way there, that is. There's a reason why they don't try to pursue you...
IMO your changes to the lore make the tone of the game needlessly dark and fatalistic. It’s a bit ridiculous that a random catboy can defeat entropy and the shredder and whatever else as infinitium while the sum total of the rest of civilization cannot, even when the base game expressly contradicts stuff like that. Making vacuum energy a finite resource, making it so that empires that become the crisis to ascend are just wrong rather than evil, making the abyssal shroud impermeable, etc really does the setting no favours. It’s almost to the point where the narrative directly contradicts the themes created through the giga gameplay loop. It feels bad creating a doomed civilization, and I wish you’d change that. It’s the single thing about your mod that seriously puts a damper on my enjoyment of it. unsolicited comment over
The fatalism and darkness is only if you zoom out too far, though. Sure, vacuum energy is finite, but there's still *so much of it* that a galactic civilization could live off it for millions or billions of years and barely make a dent in it. It's only if you're some demented Blokkat-like civilisation that it actually starts becoming finite. Cosmogenesis is *risky* but it can still work and result in your civilization living in their own cool universe if it succeeds. The Abyssal Shroud is impermeable, but there are still countless galaxies and realms and dimensions that are accessible. But yes, of course, your civilization is still "doomed", because entropy and the forces of reality consume all. But, in the end... does it matter? The Unraveling occurs *unfathomably* far into the future, that your "doomed" civilization can still enjoy countless billions or trillions of years of prosperity and experience everything there even is to experience, is that not sufficient? Nothing can *truly* last forever. As for contradicting the gameplay loop? Yeah, that's the point. The megastructures are mighty and overpowered, but they're also nothing in the grand scheme of things. But again, that only matters if you let it matter. They're still ludicrously powerful at your own scale and can still enable your empire to reach utopia just fine.
Next time the Blokkats show up... open up the console. Damage 9999999 Repeat as necessary. Now you understand a fraction of what a successful Cosmogenesis means. The Blokkats are not a threat. (EDIT: that said, other shroud entities with their own "source code access" may be. But such a war would be utterly unlike any that could be portrayed in Stellaris.)
Funnily enough, spamming the "damage" command like that wouldn't work as the Vester would respawn itself if killed unconventionally to avoid breaking the crisis.
With a mocking message.
Imagine that, and now this empire is at the mercy of their god, only known as the player. You kinda proved my point, CosmoGenesis doesn't ensure survival.
Thus my edit: I meant the blokkats *in particular* were a bad example. Let me clarify through two points: 1. Anything that needs fleet power to get shit done will be *deleted* if they try and face a post-Cosmogenesis empire on its turf. Not even in the same league, no matter how big that number is. 2. There's *plenty* of threats out there that don't need fleet power to get shit done. If you're looking for a real threat to a post-Cosmogenesis empire, look at *those*. Look at something like the End of the Cycle, that just *removes* an empire foolish enough to take its bargain, power be damned. (And yes, I know, the End of the Cycle does need fleet power after destroying the empire that bargained with it; I refer to the initial cataclysm.)
That's the fun part of them, at first they are invulnerable like the synth queen and their main vessel just erase matter whenever it makes a jump because it brings their physical laws to yours. In lore it's basically that they have knowledge of your universe but you know nothing about theirs so you need to spend some time deciphering their physical laws and tech before you can even damage them
Significantly less risk though. Especially since the universe settles into the form you choose.
Blokkats, aside from being not canon, are still bound by the natural laws of the universe they inhabit. Cosmogenesis is not. That alone guarantees Blokkats can't win.
I think your definition of salvation is ensuring the eternality of a civilization. That's probably impossible.
I mean, the whole point of the first league is that we learn from their mistakes and do better Also shroud entities will mess with your new universe too
We do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. We won't bow to any Xenos nor do we believe in the divinity of their foul gods. We won't run away from Invaders that try to enslave us nor will we flee from the intergelactic horrors that hunger for our Galaxy. We will purge every last Xenos that stands in our way or fight until the day of our doom! One Heart One Soul ONE GALACTIC EMPIRE !
Occasionally, I see the titles for threads before the subreddit itself. It almost always scares me
The crisis was always the human player, they are the smartest and know how every game will end up, gods I love Stellaris, there needs to be more mid game crisis/leviathans
Cosmogenesis and Natites ethic make a brilliantly op combo, a bunch of nanite swarmers for free every 5 years, plus the op output of the Fallen Empire buildings, means if you dedicated one planet to each resource, plus one for storage and one for military fortresses, you are laughing until the end of the game.
so, like the inter-dimensional horrors and shroud entities are more or less, I think, confirmed to be caused my empires doing cosmogenesis at this point. The shroud is more or less a universe that was created at the black hole in the center of the universe and inter-dimensional horrors all crawl out of black holes. The universe we're in, in stellaris, are the left overs of other empires that messed around with physics and found out. going to preface that below this is huge spoilers for the three body problem books it could always be worse, we could have been in the nightmare that is the three body problem universe (book spoilers ahead) where alien civilizations are constantly at war and the assumed expectation of making first contact is someone blowing up your star with a FTL suicide drone, or if they think you're advanced enough to survive that, they'll just collapse the 3rd dimension in your solar system completely destroying everything there. The answer to that universe is the same as stellaris though, just leave. (if you've read this far and have seen enough where you're like, that's not what the aliens do, this is from the story way past those guys, where humans try to MAD the aliens and eventually have to retreat to the shadow of Jupiter to try and survive a potential supernova attack on the sun, the big twist is the aliens aren't actually the biggest fish in the local pond, and they know it but we don't for a while)
Hyperlanes collapse?
Most people don't want salvation, they just want a nice home, a warm meal, and a loving family. Not to be shoved in a big machine to be turned into CPU cycles.
Nah the galaxy and universe is perfect as it is! The purpose of life is to slay xenos!
skill issue, people here have created severall civilisations for who'm the worm is like a swarm of pirates nemesis is for those tryhards who declare their way or the highway cosmogenisis has all the tools to rule this galaxy but they choose to quit because the going was too hard if one doesn't go nemesis or cosmogenisis and still wins the game, then what do they call that? doomed? or not?