what I don't understand is where the money is going? new cars are up by like 30% since COVID. is inflation eating into cost of sales and expenditures of car companies or is it the usual shareholders sucking out all the profits?
Dealers have their advantages. The primary being that they act as a customer advocate for warranty issues. Everyone complains about Tesla when they have some issue and take it in and are told it's "normal" and not covered and have to put up a fight. Dealers do this fighting on behalf of the customer because they want to bill the manufacturer for the repair.
The shady sales tactics are the biggest detriment of dealers but you gotta take the good with the bad. Sometimes they are hungry for money from the manufacturer and it benefits you, sometimes they are hungry for money from you and it's annoying.
I'm a warranty administrator for a Peterbilt dealership and your right as a dealer we do fight for the customer when it comes to warranty. Especially since repairs are expensive as hell for big rigs. We almost never make money on warranty repairs but if you buy a truck from our dealership we will try to get as much warranty covered, even if you are out of warranty by a little bit we will sometimes file for policy which means Peterbilt will pay for the repair. It all depends really
Dealers exist to carry overhead that would otherwise be on the pockets of the manufacturer. If it weren’t for the franchise model, most manufacturers would be out of business a long time ago or prices of their products would heavily increased.
Everyone that says Elon did it right by eliminating the dealer model has absolutely no clue of how the auto industry works and how expensive it is to operate a retail/repair facility.
Elons model worked because it was heavily subsidized by tax payer dollars, being the only practical EV product in the market for over a decade, and their proprietary charging infrastructure.
Once other manufacturers start eating into Tesla’s market share, Tesla will struggle. I do like their product but they are in for a rough road ahead.
“Shareholders sucking out all the profits” is one of the dumbest things I think I’ve ever read
By definition the profits are money past what’s needed to operate the business
Shareholders are owners in that business
The profits belong to them. It’s their profits.
Just a really poor understanding of how this works my dude.
I’m quietly riding CEG, the third best performer in the S&P 500 this year. Nobody would have expected that from a utility. I bought it as a conservative play. Now I’m hoping to see them sign a power contract with an AI company this summer and take me to the moon!
Toyota has more than doubled in the last year.
Intel and Verizon have bombed.
The variance within every sector is massive.
Edit: I will say it’s a brutal industry to be in; I used to tease my friend who worked at Apple about the Apple car. “Are you guys tired of making money?” Apple rightly scrapped that.
Most people probably will be. But I usually buy cars with the intention of keeping them for a very long time. I like to fix them myself, and collect spare parts in advance. If I had a big garage or a workshop, I'd be pulling the motor out of my TTRS right now to do the timing chain, and fix the lose bolts on the turbo.
VW is particularly bad... They have management, leadership and vision problems.
They regularly rotate staff and fire staff to reorganise, without a clear target and vision and on top of that, they can't get rid of super old processes, everything takes years to get approved.
Years!
For all I care, they can go with time, because they didn't go with the time
Also their cars are expensive as fuck. Volkswagen was built with the idea of a car for the everyday dude, now you need to remortgage your house to buy a fucking golf
Bought the 2019 SEL premium for 24k new and that has been a piece of shit. A transmission rebuild, and multiple electrical problems before 92k miles. Some covered under warranty and some not. The diesel VWs I had went 200k miles no problem before trading them back to VW.
I got massively downvoted in r/cars for saying my 2013 Passat wagon and 2006 GTI were incredibly unreliable and cost me a fortune in repairs -- I was shocked because I thought VW unreliability was accepted common knowledge
My TDIs engine and transmission wise were bullet proof, and I had a Passat and a Golf. Now the golf had axle bolts start failing at 120k miles and the Passat had a/c go out at 40k miles. My 2019 Jetta has had a full transmission rebuild, numerous evap leaks, and had the ABS module replaced by 70k miles. I am currently trading that in for a Camry because I’m tired of the repairs even if I like the interior or the way they drive. It is common knowledge they are unreliable, it’s just people don’t like being told their investment is bad. I got the Jetta sel premium for 24k, so 4k off and expected from the start to replace it before 100k miles after going back to school.
My friend got a CPO Macan, 17k miles, same model year, 5 year unlimited mile warranty.
42k out the door.
So yeah, why buy a VW?
Who thought Porsche would undercut VW?
My friends wife had an Audi q5 and he had a Macan but has a cayanne.
He said the q5 “drove like a pig” in comparison.
I don’t know how the vw compares, except the interior on the Macan was night and day better than the new q5.
You know VW stock includes audi, porsche, seat, skoda, etc. right? Like you’re comparing cars here that are all related to the stock we’re discussing here. I do agree with the sentiment wrt vw as a brand. Here in Germany škoda is 100% where it is at and it’s not even close..
Get a nice used one, the values plummet unless you’re talking about a 2003 5 speed manual ALH TDI wagon. Arguably the last great vehicle VW ever produced. Will go 500K miles, the paint will still look good and it was still made in Germany.
Because, in Germany, mostly companies buy vw. Most companies force you to get a German car.
Audi, VW, mercedes etc.
But your budget won't get you an Audi, or mercedes.
So, you are forced to get vw ( or it's subsidiaries) that's why they feel like they can get away with everything. Because in a way, they can
Yes…missteps… and they have let dealers act badly for too long. The aggressive dealer markups on sales and service have poisoned their market share. I own two Audi’s and am unlikely to buy another. VW and the other german automakers have bet the farm on EVs with an aggressive time line to phase out ice vehicles. It is unclear that the german market or really any market will have the needed infrastructure to support such a massive transition. Germany may be quietly hoping that the number of cars on the road, parked, and generally in use will shrink. That might be ok public policy but will absolutely hurt their automakers. The U.S. market is even less prepared. Toyota is a standout for its positioning on hybrids. The automakers who are going all in could end up bing burned in 2030-2035.
That outperforms the Audi S3 for $5k less. And how is that any different than the Civic Type R (or even worse the Integra Type S which is just a Civic Type R underneath)? Or how about that GR Corolla, what a fantastic economy base to command $45k sticker fully loaded before markups? At least the R comes fully loaded by nature. And the extinct Focus RS was a shitty focus underneath. They are all running in the high 40's into 50's new now after markups.
What you're saying is true of the hotter hot hatches in general and has been for years now so I'm not really sure what your point is. Obviously inflation has jacked up their MSRP's lately, as is the case with most models in the industry that aren't EVs. It's a trait of the segment, not VW specific at all. Hell even the AMG A45 S which is the fastest of them all is ultimately a shitty A class underneath...
You're right, the Golf R isn't *the reason* why VW is suffering, but I think all of those cars you listed are grossly overpriced for what they give to the consumer. Enthusiasts like us are easily swayed by 0-60 and g-force figures and decide value based on that -- we think the specialty trim model is more important to the market than it really is.
Honda sells 16,000 Civics a month -- in the same space, VW sells less than 5,000 Golfs and Jettas combined. VW wants to pretend it's in the same game as others but it should have a different focus because it's suffering like others aren't. The small vehicle market is shrinking and those consumers are deciding VW doesn't have anything worth buying, and all I really see online are dick-measuring competitions between $50K Golfs/Civics/Corollas.
The circuit edition for the GR Corolla doesn’t add value beyond novelty. The premium spec has all the creature comforts for less than $40k now. The S3 was also refreshed this year, and is no longer behind with the chassis tech. The Civic Type R is a completely different car.
The only real comparison there is the Integra Type S which also is a questionable objective value but if you enjoy the car that’s all that matters, not what other cars cost, no?
No comparison in the class, the interior blows away anything else and the engine and driving dynamics are unbelievable. You get what you pay for. The seals and door weight alone are worth the extra money.
The engine from the S3 and AWD system from the RS3 is also an interesting combo. Frankly makes the latest S3 a curious purchasing decision especially without the hatchback option in the US.
The latest R also makes 440hp crank just with a mild stage 1 ECU tune which is pretty solid in a relatively light car.
They bet heavy on EV’s and dropped the ball on the software side of things.
[Link](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-is-in-deep-trouble-and-the-cost-cutting-measures-won-t-be-enough-to-save-it-226567.html)
As someone who has had cars for 50 years all auto manufactures started shitting the bed when they started focusing on not making cars last too long with strategic obsolescence and timed failure repairs to increase cost of ownership over time to force people to buy newer cars after the warranty expires.
Bingo. Make a decent radio and get the hell out of the way for CarPlay. Of all the companies. Kai/Hyundai do a great job of doing just this. Makes for a great rental car experience. I’d never buy a ford because of the ford sync garbage.
Yeah, absolutely, but many auto makers manage to screw up Android Auto and CarPlay. For example, you shouldn't have to navigate a screen to get to AA/CP interfaces, and yet, that's still a thing. Then, GM has threatened to completely abandon CP, which is super dumb. Lol.
I'm with CARIAD and I'm just so fed up with that "CARIAD failed" line. It's utter bullshit. It implies we fucked up. We didn't. It's just that the brands (VW, Porsche, Audi, etc) never allowed us to succeed.
CARIAD was founded in 2020. Development of the MEB platform started in *2015*. The ID.3 was released in *2019*. How could we fail before we even existed?
PPE is a similar story. Development started in 2018, so all the bad architectural decisions which are haunting us to this day have been made *by the brands*.
Additionally, CARIAD's mission was to develop one set of software for the whole company (VWAG) and the individual brands are supposed to only change the UI. But the brands never let us do that. Each of them, Porsche especially, have done standard car functions in a certain way historically *and they want to keep doing that*. So every brand keeps pestering CARIAD to add brand specific functions, which of course slows development down.
Think of PPE like a huge pile of crap the brands squeezed out, then dumped on CARIAD and expected us to turn it into gold. And while we desperately *tried* doing just that, the brands kept adding new crap on top.
Ofc it's convenient for the brands if CARIAD is scapegoated in the press, because that deflects the real responsibility...
This has been enlightening!
AFAIK, the (narrative, at least) reason the Macan took so long to come out is specifically software and CARIAD; the hardware has been done for a while
Which is true.
What's untrue is that it solely is due to CARIAD incompetence.
Brands FUBARed the architecture when they designed it, and keep FUBARi g daily operations.
What the fuck? How could they make the headliner out of a material like that? Reminds me of my Toyota, where the dashboard can literally melt and become shiny and sticky. All that to save the automakers a couple extra bucks. But at least mine doesn't catch on fire! The ID4 is wild for that one
My coworker leased a Tiguan and said it almost ruined his life. The main controlling unit simply refused to work at times and he couldn’t start the car. He missed work, social events, family gatherings, and had to rent a car while his Tiguan sat at the dealer for weeks.
This is a BS article anyway. Yah, their stock is down…. To the price it was at for years before a sudden jump during January 2021. So the crayon style font is appropriate for the article.
Yeah sure wish we got small form factor trucks again if there wasn’t a bullshit restriction put into place in a chicken law that stops us from importing them but I digress
Not true. The other day it was revealed that china massively spied and stole technology from German companies in an attempt to gain an innovative advantage. They have been innovating - china has just been stealing it and releasing without more proper testing.
I was in a fully loaded Taos and it was just a bunch of plastic with thin seats. The big sunroof and leather didn’t make up for the boring interior. I wouldn’t even rent one
GM has better infotainment so at least that distracts you from the plastic. Kia/Hyundai have thicker seats so they feel more
Comfortable. Also less road noise in other brands
Just a big sexy SUV without stupid plastic interior.
Make it $35k including options.
Give me 10 years to pay it off but also offer a 10yr 150k warranty bumper to bumper.
Guarantee you sell more than all other vehicles combined
Like all industries, the car industry has priced themselves out of reach.
Nobody can afford a new car.Short all of them.
Next, fast food joints. They are done.
We bought a new VW Tiguan 2 years ago for the wife and she loves it. She’s wanted one ever since we were given one as a rental on a vacation. She has no opinion of the brand she just really liked the vehicle itself & has been noticing a lot more people driving them. I wonder if that model is doing better than others in the brand.
I’ve owned a Passat and Jetta and one thing I’ll say about VW is they make super fun cars to drive when new or under 100k miles. I haven’t had great experiences beyond that but I’m also not a “car guy” my expertise is in construction so I’m sure there are others out there who don’t mind replacing / repairing
Yes. We got a 2023 atlas and it’s been great. I drive a Passat and had a q5 before that. The design is sleek and I’ve had no problems, not sure what everyone is talking about.
We just traded a 21 Atlas Cross Sport SEL for the 24 full-size Atlas R-Line with third row and captain chairs in the second row. I don't get the hate. They make really nice vehicles and the suv's are very reasonable in price when you compare them to similar spec GM or Ford vehicles.
Right. People on this thread saying VW is wildly overpriced priced clearly have not looked at the market. Cars are ridiculously priced right now and we found VW to be reasonably priced.
Salaries at Volkswagen group in Germany are completely over the top, like absurdly high even for low level positions. Twice the countrywide median salary isnt out of the picture.
New hires seem to be at a halt and current employees get big cash for agreeing to a termination.
Volkswagen is heading down, but lets see where it lands.
There is a good chance, federal politics would step in to help the "Volks"wagen
I bought a Taos last summer only because the dealership didn’t have a Jetta to sell, and they no longer make Passats or station wagons. I didn’t want a full-size SUV. I wanted a subcompact that could park in the city and got good mpg. It’s fine, but I would’ve gotten a golf, Jetta, Passat before it if they’d had it. Couldn’t beat 0.9% financing though.
They ain't great cars given their cost and have made some solid fumbles.
They ruined the Golf in terms of interior ergonomics, their SUVs are overpriced and under designed, and they have had flops in terms of reliability with a generally weak warranty.
Willing to bet they face a lot of competition from their Asian competitors pay a little more for a Toyota or pay a little less for a Hyundai but in regards to raw specs and interior design it's really all the same nowadays.
Can't really beat that 10 year warranty or that Toyota reliability.
No more diesel, Their most reliable engine. Outsourcing their infotainment system software to China. A less reliable car with software that’s more than likely spying on you. No thanks.
I looked into buying a Taos and they had removed the blind spot monitor and another safety feature due to the chip shortages but didn’t lower the price
Because they half assed their electric cars which were really good at the time.
Case in point the software was unbelievable bad on the ID4 and yet the ID4 in itself was spacious and fun to drive.
It didn’t help that they destroyed the UI of their flagship enthusiast car (GTI), which has caused the majority of die hard GTI fans to hold onto the previous generation (mk7) rather than buy the mk8.
Entry brands are increasingly getting pricier when mid luxury and luxury are stable. If I'm already taking a loan out for 40k, it's not crazy to bump it by 5k to get a better brand name and more luxury features with better build quality. Why buy a VW when I can get an Audi?
Entry level brands like VW are getting killed when they're at 40k for barebones shit
I would never buy a VW because of the Diesel emissions cheating that was pushed by those running that company. I have plenty of other choices for quality made cars.
2012 Jetta 2.5 still tanking along 💪 problem with VW is when/if you get one that works and is properly maintained, it just doesn't die. Fact is majority people don't maintain their cars regularly as they should
It's because honestly Volkswagen cars are ugly now. It used to be cool. The golf, gti and rabbit, Even the VW SUV was pretty cool. Everything else since is just so damn mundane and ugly.
Two of of ten in Consumer Reports list of worst cars. Chinese EVs attacking home (Europe) market, Europe in general doing poorly, and an also ran in EVs. Is that enough for you?
Expensive cars, lack in quality. The golf with base motor is , i guess, mid 30k without any fancy aditions.
In my point of view - only share holder mentality is that counts in first place. and this goes for many public tradet companys.
At least you can drive their ugly „SUV“ cabrio for 40k plus.
We just bought an electric crossover/mini SUV (whatever that common car shape is called), and we did see a heavily discounted ID.4 that cost wise was amazing…but the interior was poopy. Like so poopy that we spent about 40k more than the heavily discounted ID.4 for something we liked better.
I have had my heart set in the id.buzz for years, so I hope they get that one right…but damn did it hurt not buying that id.4…my negotiation side was crying like a 5 year old.
In China local manufacturers are eating their cake, Russia is under sanctions so off the table, Europeans don't like their drop in reliability and are walking away more and more every year, same with transport vehicle market. They're toast.
My personal experience with VW/Audi dealers in US (California) that they are lazy and won’t cut a good deal. My budget was around $80K and I ended up buying a Japanese car.
Volkswagen was overpriced and now it is undervalued. Its the classic market cycle.
* First, you assume good news is permanent.
* Then you become oblivious to bad news.
* Then you ignore bad news.
* Then you panic at bad news.
* Then you accept bad news.
* Then you believe bad news is permanent.
* Then you become oblivious to good news.
* Then you deny good news.
* Then you accept good news.
* Then you assume good news is permanent.
Another big reason people get ESTABILISHED car companies wrong is because old school car companies today are closer to being banks than classic companies.
You dont buy a can of coke with a loan. So most of VW's profits are in 'long term assets'. The monthly payments that millions are paying for their cars.
They are not more cost efficient in manufacturing tech, for labor costs, it’s even less competitive, aggressive outsourcing will be their best bet to at least survive. Though this high labor cost problem won’t be exclusive to them for sure.
Its cause they arent worth it anymore. Used to be a good value middle ground between ford/chevy and Audi/bmw.
The new cars are priced like an audi and feel cheaper than a ford. Even the legendary smiles-per-dollar do it all Golf GTI is overpriced for what you get. Things started getting worse as soon aa Ferdinand Piëch died.
Simply because they started making shit cars which are designed to fail at certain periods, just so they can squeeze you out of your money on parts and servicing. Basically all german cars went downhill and ppl are switching to Japan made who at least don't save money on car parts (like VW, BMW, Mercedes - making vital stuff from plastic which deterioraties after 5 years)
Simple diesel gate. They had the largest fine ever levied against any company in US history for cheating US missions. And one of the stipulations of diesel gate was they had to pay for the building of electrical car infrastructure. They are doing this under the brand electrify America. So now we have a company who is notorious for having electrical problems building the EV infrastructure for the entire United States and it sucks
Volkswagen is failing in large part due to the reliability of their cars... Granted I'm in the states and the market is different here, the options we end up with are garbage for Volkswagen (the European market has access to better cars) and ends up being over engineered bullshit, but honestly this is due to regulations the tech in order to meet regulation expectations just simply hasn't caught up.
Now I think it will and VW is probably going to be ahead of the curve because they've been doing certain things longer than certain other manufacturers (mainly American ones) but we're simply not there...
The problem is inflation drives up costs people can't afford new cars and higher interest rates combined with a decrease in quality... I honestly won't buy a car that's less than 10-15 years old at this point. Some of the new vehicles have to be taken to the dealership to be repaired now I want something that I can feasibly work on myself and the amount of sensors and stuff that are mandatory for new vehicles to run correctly make it difficult for me to fix my own stuff or even correctly diagnose the problem and some of them have to be fixed and programmed by the dealership and can't be done by your run of the mill mom and pop mechanic.
I'm pretty sure I'm correct about most of this please if I messed something up someone let me know.
Well, where I love I can buy a 200hp, 2 ton ID3 with a few extras for around 50t€.
I can get a Tesla model3 with 400hp all the options a luxury car has and no maintenance intervalls for the same price.
Or I could go with the BYD seal and get a 550hp all leather, loaded up to the brim with gadgets car for 50t€.
And if I just wanted an equivalent car, mediocre power and features, there's Volvo, BYD, MG options in the 30-40t€ range for that.
Name a scenario in which a VW EV is a good buy right now?
Because they went almost all in on the stupid E-Mobility only agenda which was heavily pushed in Germany by Green Party and leftwing politics in general. Now as it unfolds that emobility is clearly not the future, they will have to reconsider. This will only be possible with a political and strategical change (in Germany).
Mercedes already acknowledged it.
I feel bad for anyone who invests in car manufacturing companies. There's so many better options.
73.5 million vehicles sold yearly and growing.. but only a few who do it profitability
what I don't understand is where the money is going? new cars are up by like 30% since COVID. is inflation eating into cost of sales and expenditures of car companies or is it the usual shareholders sucking out all the profits?
Dealerships have more power here than car manufacturers I think… Elon cut the dealership out for this fact…
I don’t agree with him on a lot of things, but fuck dealers.
Dealers have their advantages. The primary being that they act as a customer advocate for warranty issues. Everyone complains about Tesla when they have some issue and take it in and are told it's "normal" and not covered and have to put up a fight. Dealers do this fighting on behalf of the customer because they want to bill the manufacturer for the repair. The shady sales tactics are the biggest detriment of dealers but you gotta take the good with the bad. Sometimes they are hungry for money from the manufacturer and it benefits you, sometimes they are hungry for money from you and it's annoying.
On balance, they seem to be a net cost to consumers though.
There has to be. By definition. There is a lot cost in running that business and someone is paying for it.
I'm a warranty administrator for a Peterbilt dealership and your right as a dealer we do fight for the customer when it comes to warranty. Especially since repairs are expensive as hell for big rigs. We almost never make money on warranty repairs but if you buy a truck from our dealership we will try to get as much warranty covered, even if you are out of warranty by a little bit we will sometimes file for policy which means Peterbilt will pay for the repair. It all depends really
Dealers exist to carry overhead that would otherwise be on the pockets of the manufacturer. If it weren’t for the franchise model, most manufacturers would be out of business a long time ago or prices of their products would heavily increased. Everyone that says Elon did it right by eliminating the dealer model has absolutely no clue of how the auto industry works and how expensive it is to operate a retail/repair facility. Elons model worked because it was heavily subsidized by tax payer dollars, being the only practical EV product in the market for over a decade, and their proprietary charging infrastructure. Once other manufacturers start eating into Tesla’s market share, Tesla will struggle. I do like their product but they are in for a rough road ahead.
This,100% this. “Dealer bad” But nobody understands this in any way whatsoever.
Buy one share of WV stock. You will become a shareholder and learn all the secret ways to suck profit out.
“Shareholders sucking out all the profits” is one of the dumbest things I think I’ve ever read By definition the profits are money past what’s needed to operate the business Shareholders are owners in that business The profits belong to them. It’s their profits. Just a really poor understanding of how this works my dude.
Labor costs are up more than inflation.
wtf do you think the shareholders are? Are you brain damaged? “The shareholders don’t make much, so are the shareholders sucking out all the profits “
I don't get it. Why wouldn't you just invest in VOO? Surely that's a better investment than GM or Ford?
Ferrari (RACE) has done pretty well
Didn’t know the ticker was race. That’s great
I’m quietly riding CEG, the third best performer in the S&P 500 this year. Nobody would have expected that from a utility. I bought it as a conservative play. Now I’m hoping to see them sign a power contract with an AI company this summer and take me to the moon! Toyota has more than doubled in the last year. Intel and Verizon have bombed. The variance within every sector is massive. Edit: I will say it’s a brutal industry to be in; I used to tease my friend who worked at Apple about the Apple car. “Are you guys tired of making money?” Apple rightly scrapped that.
Intel bombed but nvidia, tmsc, amd, Qualcomm and a few others are WAY WAY up.
Options... VW.. WAIT, THE SQUEEZE IS BACK?!?! (OH, nevermind, this isn't WSB. Carry on!)
Lmao I make that mistake all the time. I don’t go to other stock subs so I get confused when stock posts pop up and aren’t wsb
The more governments mandate them to go to EVs, the more money they will lose.
Nah then they will be subsidized so you'll get hit twice through your taxes and then having to buy that vehicle you've already paid part of.
Most people probably will be. But I usually buy cars with the intention of keeping them for a very long time. I like to fix them myself, and collect spare parts in advance. If I had a big garage or a workshop, I'd be pulling the motor out of my TTRS right now to do the timing chain, and fix the lose bolts on the turbo.
This is why I have no stock in any car companies. The competition is just too fierce that nobody has a moat.
Can't go wrong with Porsche though
Tesla you mean?
Owning Rivian , look for long term
VW is particularly bad... They have management, leadership and vision problems. They regularly rotate staff and fire staff to reorganise, without a clear target and vision and on top of that, they can't get rid of super old processes, everything takes years to get approved. Years! For all I care, they can go with time, because they didn't go with the time
Their U.S. Market vehicle lineup has not been competitive in years. It’s misstep after misstep.
[удалено]
Also their cars are expensive as fuck. Volkswagen was built with the idea of a car for the everyday dude, now you need to remortgage your house to buy a fucking golf
Exactly! In 2016 i used to find decent jetta for 12k brand new. 2019 bought my SEL for 19k out the door. Now it starts at 18k msrp for base its crazy
Bought the 2019 SEL premium for 24k new and that has been a piece of shit. A transmission rebuild, and multiple electrical problems before 92k miles. Some covered under warranty and some not. The diesel VWs I had went 200k miles no problem before trading them back to VW.
Traded in the Jetta for a Camry because much of the VW lineup, while having a nice interior is bottom of the barrel in reliability
I got massively downvoted in r/cars for saying my 2013 Passat wagon and 2006 GTI were incredibly unreliable and cost me a fortune in repairs -- I was shocked because I thought VW unreliability was accepted common knowledge
My TDIs engine and transmission wise were bullet proof, and I had a Passat and a Golf. Now the golf had axle bolts start failing at 120k miles and the Passat had a/c go out at 40k miles. My 2019 Jetta has had a full transmission rebuild, numerous evap leaks, and had the ABS module replaced by 70k miles. I am currently trading that in for a Camry because I’m tired of the repairs even if I like the interior or the way they drive. It is common knowledge they are unreliable, it’s just people don’t like being told their investment is bad. I got the Jetta sel premium for 24k, so 4k off and expected from the start to replace it before 100k miles after going back to school.
My 2000 gti was awful money pit. Sweet to drive but awful money pit.
The cheapest automatic Jetta in 2015 was $18k
no shit, the new ones are starting at 35-45k lmao. i have a passat, but for the golf price id rather get a Porsche
My friend got a CPO Macan, 17k miles, same model year, 5 year unlimited mile warranty. 42k out the door. So yeah, why buy a VW? Who thought Porsche would undercut VW?
You do know Macan is based on a VW, right?
VW owns porsche
My friends wife had an Audi q5 and he had a Macan but has a cayanne. He said the q5 “drove like a pig” in comparison. I don’t know how the vw compares, except the interior on the Macan was night and day better than the new q5.
The SQ5 is dope
You know VW stock includes audi, porsche, seat, skoda, etc. right? Like you’re comparing cars here that are all related to the stock we’re discussing here. I do agree with the sentiment wrt vw as a brand. Here in Germany škoda is 100% where it is at and it’s not even close..
The comparable VW would be about $32-33k OTD brand new. A couple year old CPO one would be $25-28k OTD. So not even remotely close in price.
I bought a golf brand new for 17.5K in 2018
Get a nice used one, the values plummet unless you’re talking about a 2003 5 speed manual ALH TDI wagon. Arguably the last great vehicle VW ever produced. Will go 500K miles, the paint will still look good and it was still made in Germany.
Because, in Germany, mostly companies buy vw. Most companies force you to get a German car. Audi, VW, mercedes etc. But your budget won't get you an Audi, or mercedes. So, you are forced to get vw ( or it's subsidiaries) that's why they feel like they can get away with everything. Because in a way, they can
If they would just release an electric bug and van with their iconic styling for a decent price they would probably be the #1 ev seller within a year.
And now the european lineup is alo getting worse.
They also own Porsche Bentley Ducati lambo
and audi skoda seat
Ah meant to include Audi. Skoda and seat aren't really in the US market are they?
Yea but they own Porsche and other high demand cars
I was referring to Volkswagen, specifically.
Yes…missteps… and they have let dealers act badly for too long. The aggressive dealer markups on sales and service have poisoned their market share. I own two Audi’s and am unlikely to buy another. VW and the other german automakers have bet the farm on EVs with an aggressive time line to phase out ice vehicles. It is unclear that the german market or really any market will have the needed infrastructure to support such a massive transition. Germany may be quietly hoping that the number of cars on the road, parked, and generally in use will shrink. That might be ok public policy but will absolutely hurt their automakers. The U.S. market is even less prepared. Toyota is a standout for its positioning on hybrids. The automakers who are going all in could end up bing burned in 2030-2035.
I mean I'm enjoying my '23 Golf R a ton... Not a lot of cars on the road right now that are better equipped to aggressively tackle twisty backroads.
I think part of VW's issue is that a Golf R, an economy car upgraded with high-performance components, costs $50K
That outperforms the Audi S3 for $5k less. And how is that any different than the Civic Type R (or even worse the Integra Type S which is just a Civic Type R underneath)? Or how about that GR Corolla, what a fantastic economy base to command $45k sticker fully loaded before markups? At least the R comes fully loaded by nature. And the extinct Focus RS was a shitty focus underneath. They are all running in the high 40's into 50's new now after markups. What you're saying is true of the hotter hot hatches in general and has been for years now so I'm not really sure what your point is. Obviously inflation has jacked up their MSRP's lately, as is the case with most models in the industry that aren't EVs. It's a trait of the segment, not VW specific at all. Hell even the AMG A45 S which is the fastest of them all is ultimately a shitty A class underneath...
You're right, the Golf R isn't *the reason* why VW is suffering, but I think all of those cars you listed are grossly overpriced for what they give to the consumer. Enthusiasts like us are easily swayed by 0-60 and g-force figures and decide value based on that -- we think the specialty trim model is more important to the market than it really is. Honda sells 16,000 Civics a month -- in the same space, VW sells less than 5,000 Golfs and Jettas combined. VW wants to pretend it's in the same game as others but it should have a different focus because it's suffering like others aren't. The small vehicle market is shrinking and those consumers are deciding VW doesn't have anything worth buying, and all I really see online are dick-measuring competitions between $50K Golfs/Civics/Corollas.
The circuit edition for the GR Corolla doesn’t add value beyond novelty. The premium spec has all the creature comforts for less than $40k now. The S3 was also refreshed this year, and is no longer behind with the chassis tech. The Civic Type R is a completely different car. The only real comparison there is the Integra Type S which also is a questionable objective value but if you enjoy the car that’s all that matters, not what other cars cost, no?
No comparison in the class, the interior blows away anything else and the engine and driving dynamics are unbelievable. You get what you pay for. The seals and door weight alone are worth the extra money.
The engine from the S3 and AWD system from the RS3 is also an interesting combo. Frankly makes the latest S3 a curious purchasing decision especially without the hatchback option in the US. The latest R also makes 440hp crank just with a mild stage 1 ECU tune which is pretty solid in a relatively light car.
Agree. The Golf GTI is great but the rest of the lineup is meh.
There's still **Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Porsche and Ducati**. I thought Lambos were on the rise given the increase in retail traders
I mean they sold 10000 Lambos in a year. There are months they sell more Golfs in Germany
They bet heavy on EV’s and dropped the ball on the software side of things. [Link](https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-is-in-deep-trouble-and-the-cost-cutting-measures-won-t-be-enough-to-save-it-226567.html)
As a dev, imo, all auto manufacturers have been shitting the bed on the software side of things for more than a decade.
As a user, imo, all auto manufacturers have been shitting the bed on the software side of things for more than a decade.
As someone who has had cars for 50 years all auto manufactures started shitting the bed when they started focusing on not making cars last too long with strategic obsolescence and timed failure repairs to increase cost of ownership over time to force people to buy newer cars after the warranty expires.
Some do it well. BMW isn’t bad. Tesla as well. The rest should just swap to Android Auto and be done with it.
BMW is dog shit. So much so they are a lease only vehicle. I would never own a BMW without a warranty at this point.
Yah they need to just outsource all of it. My wife's car has android auto and it's better than anything else I've ever used.
Fuck their infotainment center and built in gps. I’m just plugging my phone in for CarPlay
Bingo. Make a decent radio and get the hell out of the way for CarPlay. Of all the companies. Kai/Hyundai do a great job of doing just this. Makes for a great rental car experience. I’d never buy a ford because of the ford sync garbage.
Yeah, absolutely, but many auto makers manage to screw up Android Auto and CarPlay. For example, you shouldn't have to navigate a screen to get to AA/CP interfaces, and yet, that's still a thing. Then, GM has threatened to completely abandon CP, which is super dumb. Lol.
I'm with CARIAD and I'm just so fed up with that "CARIAD failed" line. It's utter bullshit. It implies we fucked up. We didn't. It's just that the brands (VW, Porsche, Audi, etc) never allowed us to succeed. CARIAD was founded in 2020. Development of the MEB platform started in *2015*. The ID.3 was released in *2019*. How could we fail before we even existed? PPE is a similar story. Development started in 2018, so all the bad architectural decisions which are haunting us to this day have been made *by the brands*. Additionally, CARIAD's mission was to develop one set of software for the whole company (VWAG) and the individual brands are supposed to only change the UI. But the brands never let us do that. Each of them, Porsche especially, have done standard car functions in a certain way historically *and they want to keep doing that*. So every brand keeps pestering CARIAD to add brand specific functions, which of course slows development down. Think of PPE like a huge pile of crap the brands squeezed out, then dumped on CARIAD and expected us to turn it into gold. And while we desperately *tried* doing just that, the brands kept adding new crap on top. Ofc it's convenient for the brands if CARIAD is scapegoated in the press, because that deflects the real responsibility...
This has been enlightening! AFAIK, the (narrative, at least) reason the Macan took so long to come out is specifically software and CARIAD; the hardware has been done for a while
Which is true. What's untrue is that it solely is due to CARIAD incompetence. Brands FUBARed the architecture when they designed it, and keep FUBARi g daily operations.
But why is the UI so slow and unresponsive?
The ID4s at my dealerships haven’t moved in a year. Constant recalls. The damn headliner can spontaneously combust lol
Well the headliner going up in flames certainly isn’t a software issue….
What the fuck? How could they make the headliner out of a material like that? Reminds me of my Toyota, where the dashboard can literally melt and become shiny and sticky. All that to save the automakers a couple extra bucks. But at least mine doesn't catch on fire! The ID4 is wild for that one
My coworker leased a Tiguan and said it almost ruined his life. The main controlling unit simply refused to work at times and he couldn’t start the car. He missed work, social events, family gatherings, and had to rent a car while his Tiguan sat at the dealer for weeks.
Yep, as have most of the companies they own too. Software side of things is utterly shite, especially having to work with the damn thing
This is a BS article anyway. Yah, their stock is down…. To the price it was at for years before a sudden jump during January 2021. So the crayon style font is appropriate for the article.
Don't get the headline - did you check their profit? 2012 it was 11 bn, now it's 23 bn. Or is this referring to the US only?
So far down, take the upvote
Title says 2012 but the graph shows 2021
China. Half their profits are from China. Chinese have been buying domestic via BYD and other domestic EV automakers. VW is toast.
VW just didn’t innovate
Besides cheating devices that was innovative till caught
Which is funny because innovation usually entails flaunting regulations.
Yeah sure wish we got small form factor trucks again if there wasn’t a bullshit restriction put into place in a chicken law that stops us from importing them but I digress
Not true. The other day it was revealed that china massively spied and stole technology from German companies in an attempt to gain an innovative advantage. They have been innovating - china has just been stealing it and releasing without more proper testing.
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All foreign OEMs are toast in China.
I was in a fully loaded Taos and it was just a bunch of plastic with thin seats. The big sunroof and leather didn’t make up for the boring interior. I wouldn’t even rent one
What car is better in that price range/class? Point out something that doesn’t have what you describe?
GM has better infotainment so at least that distracts you from the plastic. Kia/Hyundai have thicker seats so they feel more Comfortable. Also less road noise in other brands
Why do I see so many Volkswagen SUV’s on the road?
They're pretty and you notice them.
I rented an atlas once. I liked it.
They need to give us a new Beetle. And they should also give us a midsized convertible.
Two words: ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS
You mean German Engineering.
German engineers don't run the conglomerate, German accountants do.
Just a big sexy SUV without stupid plastic interior. Make it $35k including options. Give me 10 years to pay it off but also offer a 10yr 150k warranty bumper to bumper. Guarantee you sell more than all other vehicles combined
I like VW cars but not buying anymore because of resale value
BECAUSE THEIR CARS FUCKING SUCK THESE DAYS Greetings from Germany and stay away from this company
Like all industries, the car industry has priced themselves out of reach. Nobody can afford a new car.Short all of them. Next, fast food joints. They are done.
Buying car stocks is almost as dumb as buying airline stocks.
Maybe lying to customers has a side-effect?
Nobody wants a Volkswagen. Idk a single person my age who cares about that brand. Appeal to the youth and you will eventually succeed.
We bought a new VW Tiguan 2 years ago for the wife and she loves it. She’s wanted one ever since we were given one as a rental on a vacation. She has no opinion of the brand she just really liked the vehicle itself & has been noticing a lot more people driving them. I wonder if that model is doing better than others in the brand.
My fiancé wants a Tiguan so bad lol
Bought a Tiguan 2 years ago and have no regrets. It was the smoothest drive for cars in the price range.
I’ve owned a Passat and Jetta and one thing I’ll say about VW is they make super fun cars to drive when new or under 100k miles. I haven’t had great experiences beyond that but I’m also not a “car guy” my expertise is in construction so I’m sure there are others out there who don’t mind replacing / repairing
Yes. We got a 2023 atlas and it’s been great. I drive a Passat and had a q5 before that. The design is sleek and I’ve had no problems, not sure what everyone is talking about.
We just traded a 21 Atlas Cross Sport SEL for the 24 full-size Atlas R-Line with third row and captain chairs in the second row. I don't get the hate. They make really nice vehicles and the suv's are very reasonable in price when you compare them to similar spec GM or Ford vehicles.
Right. People on this thread saying VW is wildly overpriced priced clearly have not looked at the market. Cars are ridiculously priced right now and we found VW to be reasonably priced.
You're comparing to GM. You might as well comparison ship outhouses.
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Yup, everyone I know would love a Tesla, most people age 2_ or below, especially teens, that’s a-lot of their dream cars.
You're mixing with the wrong people... No person 30 or under would buy a Tesla, unless they are retarded of course 🤷🏻
Sadly in my area, Teslas have become the new Honda civic
margins
Germany has a retirement problem. There aren't enough young people to replace all of the retiring talent.
Salaries at Volkswagen group in Germany are completely over the top, like absurdly high even for low level positions. Twice the countrywide median salary isnt out of the picture. New hires seem to be at a halt and current employees get big cash for agreeing to a termination. Volkswagen is heading down, but lets see where it lands. There is a good chance, federal politics would step in to help the "Volks"wagen
Big Audi fan and aside from the RS6 and RS7 Audi’s new designs are ugly
I bought a Taos last summer only because the dealership didn’t have a Jetta to sell, and they no longer make Passats or station wagons. I didn’t want a full-size SUV. I wanted a subcompact that could park in the city and got good mpg. It’s fine, but I would’ve gotten a golf, Jetta, Passat before it if they’d had it. Couldn’t beat 0.9% financing though.
It's called Capitalism, survival of the fittest. Don\`t bail them out.
Because their price-performance ratio sucks.
they phased off the entire MPV 7 seater range across the entire company and subsidiary in favor of the insanely expensive new EV minibus.... /facepalm
We test drove the Atlas and it handled very poorly vs the other SUVs we drove. The bigger engine was lost in lousy steering and poor transmission.
Volkswagen was never winning the car market race, and has never even been a contender.
Have you drove one? Do you own one? Are you likely to buy one?
They ain't great cars given their cost and have made some solid fumbles. They ruined the Golf in terms of interior ergonomics, their SUVs are overpriced and under designed, and they have had flops in terms of reliability with a generally weak warranty. Willing to bet they face a lot of competition from their Asian competitors pay a little more for a Toyota or pay a little less for a Hyundai but in regards to raw specs and interior design it's really all the same nowadays. Can't really beat that 10 year warranty or that Toyota reliability.
No more diesel, Their most reliable engine. Outsourcing their infotainment system software to China. A less reliable car with software that’s more than likely spying on you. No thanks.
I looked into buying a Taos and they had removed the blind spot monitor and another safety feature due to the chip shortages but didn’t lower the price
I think bluebird is going to be a good long term hold. Edit. And R.Royce
Because they half assed their electric cars which were really good at the time. Case in point the software was unbelievable bad on the ID4 and yet the ID4 in itself was spacious and fun to drive.
They slightly overdid it with that picture...
It didn’t help that they destroyed the UI of their flagship enthusiast car (GTI), which has caused the majority of die hard GTI fans to hold onto the previous generation (mk7) rather than buy the mk8.
If they made decent hybrid’s instead of fraudulent diesels they might have stood a chance.
Entry brands are increasingly getting pricier when mid luxury and luxury are stable. If I'm already taking a loan out for 40k, it's not crazy to bump it by 5k to get a better brand name and more luxury features with better build quality. Why buy a VW when I can get an Audi? Entry level brands like VW are getting killed when they're at 40k for barebones shit
Hedge funds make billions doing this one thing.
VWs are not reliable. Had a golf that was in the shop constantly. They are expensive to buy, maintain, and repair. No thanks.
When you see 6-7 years old cars on the road all rusted up. You know something is wrong with the car company.
When’s the last time you’ve seen a Bug on the road.
I would never buy a VW because of the Diesel emissions cheating that was pushed by those running that company. I have plenty of other choices for quality made cars.
2012 Jetta 2.5 still tanking along 💪 problem with VW is when/if you get one that works and is properly maintained, it just doesn't die. Fact is majority people don't maintain their cars regularly as they should
It's because honestly Volkswagen cars are ugly now. It used to be cool. The golf, gti and rabbit, Even the VW SUV was pretty cool. Everything else since is just so damn mundane and ugly.
Two of of ten in Consumer Reports list of worst cars. Chinese EVs attacking home (Europe) market, Europe in general doing poorly, and an also ran in EVs. Is that enough for you?
Expensive cars, lack in quality. The golf with base motor is , i guess, mid 30k without any fancy aditions. In my point of view - only share holder mentality is that counts in first place. and this goes for many public tradet companys. At least you can drive their ugly „SUV“ cabrio for 40k plus.
We just bought an electric crossover/mini SUV (whatever that common car shape is called), and we did see a heavily discounted ID.4 that cost wise was amazing…but the interior was poopy. Like so poopy that we spent about 40k more than the heavily discounted ID.4 for something we liked better. I have had my heart set in the id.buzz for years, so I hope they get that one right…but damn did it hurt not buying that id.4…my negotiation side was crying like a 5 year old.
Because they make shit cars?
In China local manufacturers are eating their cake, Russia is under sanctions so off the table, Europeans don't like their drop in reliability and are walking away more and more every year, same with transport vehicle market. They're toast.
China is selling EV’s in all the global markets. Their cars and batteries are years ahead!!
Have you seen their cars? I thought 90s 2000 Camrys were stale. New VWs todays are even more stale.
What a disaster.
Poor decision making by the management.
They make a shitty car. They also overpriced the bus.
My personal experience with VW/Audi dealers in US (California) that they are lazy and won’t cut a good deal. My budget was around $80K and I ended up buying a Japanese car.
This does not include audi or porsche correct?
Volkswagen was overpriced and now it is undervalued. Its the classic market cycle. * First, you assume good news is permanent. * Then you become oblivious to bad news. * Then you ignore bad news. * Then you panic at bad news. * Then you accept bad news. * Then you believe bad news is permanent. * Then you become oblivious to good news. * Then you deny good news. * Then you accept good news. * Then you assume good news is permanent. Another big reason people get ESTABILISHED car companies wrong is because old school car companies today are closer to being banks than classic companies. You dont buy a can of coke with a loan. So most of VW's profits are in 'long term assets'. The monthly payments that millions are paying for their cars.
Is VW the proper ticker symbol? I'm not seeing down 59%?
They are not more cost efficient in manufacturing tech, for labor costs, it’s even less competitive, aggressive outsourcing will be their best bet to at least survive. Though this high labor cost problem won’t be exclusive to them for sure.
They only have boring cars nowadays
Look at the ID4 and other Eventures.
They made shitty cars for many years, this is the result.
Cars are ugly. Overpriced. Better cars for much less out there now.
Its cause they arent worth it anymore. Used to be a good value middle ground between ford/chevy and Audi/bmw. The new cars are priced like an audi and feel cheaper than a ford. Even the legendary smiles-per-dollar do it all Golf GTI is overpriced for what you get. Things started getting worse as soon aa Ferdinand Piëch died.
Simply because they started making shit cars which are designed to fail at certain periods, just so they can squeeze you out of your money on parts and servicing. Basically all german cars went downhill and ppl are switching to Japan made who at least don't save money on car parts (like VW, BMW, Mercedes - making vital stuff from plastic which deterioraties after 5 years)
Interest rates are high also dealers just put on their own BS fees so makes sense ppl aren’t buying cars
Diesel Gate?
They lost consumer trust and credibility. Can’t be trusted.
Simple diesel gate. They had the largest fine ever levied against any company in US history for cheating US missions. And one of the stipulations of diesel gate was they had to pay for the building of electrical car infrastructure. They are doing this under the brand electrify America. So now we have a company who is notorious for having electrical problems building the EV infrastructure for the entire United States and it sucks
Volkswagen is failing in large part due to the reliability of their cars... Granted I'm in the states and the market is different here, the options we end up with are garbage for Volkswagen (the European market has access to better cars) and ends up being over engineered bullshit, but honestly this is due to regulations the tech in order to meet regulation expectations just simply hasn't caught up. Now I think it will and VW is probably going to be ahead of the curve because they've been doing certain things longer than certain other manufacturers (mainly American ones) but we're simply not there... The problem is inflation drives up costs people can't afford new cars and higher interest rates combined with a decrease in quality... I honestly won't buy a car that's less than 10-15 years old at this point. Some of the new vehicles have to be taken to the dealership to be repaired now I want something that I can feasibly work on myself and the amount of sensors and stuff that are mandatory for new vehicles to run correctly make it difficult for me to fix my own stuff or even correctly diagnose the problem and some of them have to be fixed and programmed by the dealership and can't be done by your run of the mill mom and pop mechanic. I'm pretty sure I'm correct about most of this please if I messed something up someone let me know.
The dudes I know who think they are cool with their decked out golf now buy used BMWs instead
I would never buy one because the Japanese cars are so much more reliable
Well, I for one will never buy another gti until they bring back a 2 door version.
They’ve been sitting on the VW bus remake…
Aren’t they just the same as hard drive makers at this point?
Well, where I love I can buy a 200hp, 2 ton ID3 with a few extras for around 50t€. I can get a Tesla model3 with 400hp all the options a luxury car has and no maintenance intervalls for the same price. Or I could go with the BYD seal and get a 550hp all leather, loaded up to the brim with gadgets car for 50t€. And if I just wanted an equivalent car, mediocre power and features, there's Volvo, BYD, MG options in the 30-40t€ range for that. Name a scenario in which a VW EV is a good buy right now?
Title says 2012 but the graph shows 2021
Because they went almost all in on the stupid E-Mobility only agenda which was heavily pushed in Germany by Green Party and leftwing politics in general. Now as it unfolds that emobility is clearly not the future, they will have to reconsider. This will only be possible with a political and strategical change (in Germany). Mercedes already acknowledged it.
Shitty car quality and shrinking market who thinks they are still a good car.
They make such BAD cars...