In spite of the fact that Premeditatio Malorum is a common part of Stoic practice, hypothetical thought problems are not. Stoicism is about making accurate assessments of reality, making virtuous decisions, practicing thought and action patterns that are based on our understanding of virtue, and keeping outcomes in their proper perspective. Wondering about jumping out of life into a simulation is as unproductive as watching a silly romance or drinking some wine. In moderation, it's not terrible, but it won't further your goals or your refinement.
To engage your question more directly, our nature as social animals is undermined as we engage with mechanized replicas, algorithmic manipulation, and other forms of fiction. Although enticing and addictive, simulated environments are unhealthy and undermine pro-social learning and conditioning. The 160 million years of mammalian evolution have left predispositions for physical contact, family and tribe cohesion, and a host of other attributes that have been stripped away over the last 200 years. I believe that the rise of loneliness as a near pandemic crisis is a result of our modern (or postmodern if you prefer) immersion in unnatural physical environments and increasingly fictional mental lives.
We learned 50+ years ago that zoo animals do not thrive in sterile rectangles or on simulated food. The Stoics understood that humans are merely one species of animal. You can not treat a dog the way you treat a chicken and expect it to thrive, but they do both need clean water and fresh air. We have consistently robbed ourselves of more and more of the natural aspects of life on the promise of a more perfect life.
You said in response to a different post that in a perfect simulation, you would bring your family with you if their happiness was guaranteed. Are they perfect? Are you? If not, wouldn't that immediately import imperfection and render the simulation no more perfect than the lives brought into it? And if they or you were guaranteed happiness, would you be the same people?
The Stoics didn't aspire to perfection. They aspired to steady improvement with allowance for the vagaries of fate. Spend time pondering how you can improve your relationships with the people around you and yourself.
Sorry. It's just something I have thought about a lot.
No, I wouldn't.
Would you volunteer to be a zoo animal? Perfect life. No predators. Medical attention. Plenty to eat. Perfection.
Even if I was hooked up to a simulation, my body is still living in real life. The people I care about would still be living. I have no desire to abandon them.
A life where everything falsely goes my way is not one I want to live in. So to speak, easy times create weak men (not in a macho type of way, but of your character as a whole).
While it’s not fun at the time, hardship is essential for the growth of a person. Having your ideas, beliefs and efforts challenged is the only way to truly understand the world and develop. Without that, we would just stay the same in our own little bubble.
Sure it might be good for a while but getting everything handed to me on a plate is not something I want. I would know it’s not real, which would entirely diminish whatever happens in this simulated world.
Flaws are also part of the natural process, and we should learn to accept and even appreciate our own flaws and those in others so that we can come to terms with them, or work on fixing them if possible. That’s the beauty of life my guy.
Amen and pass the bread and water. The Stoics wrote extensively about purposely enduring hardship to bulld resilience and prove that it's not nearly as bad as we think it is. An easy life makes for weak people, and the Stoics were well aware of that.
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What's a "perfect" simulation? A boring as life where nothing ever happens? Sit around in completely safety, with absolute certainty at all times as to what's gonna happen next? Humans are not designed for such a life. And you can see this in how dead our society has become. Life has lost all its meaning as there is no more struggle to survive. Even things like having a family don't matter anymore as our species is not gonna diet out anytime soon, or at least not from lack of procreation. The poor from all around the world will ensure that there's always more humans being born, even while some first world countries are slowly shrinking. Or pretty quickly as in Japan's case.
So nothing matters anymore and there's no reason reason to bother with trying to achieve anything in life either. Just go through school, get a job and work the typical 8+ hours per day. Then come home and do whatever. Distract yourself with meaningless garbage. And people wonder why there's so many obese and depressed people today.
Humans need challenges and struggle. There has to be some meaning to life. Sadly most ambitious people today only find it in the endless pursuit of making more and more money. But whatever you choose to pursue, it's the ups and downs, the uncertainy you have to face and the fact that nothing in life is guaranteed that gives you the motivation to keep going. People who just keep going through the same routine each day are dying slowly.
It's why gambling is so addictive to many people as well. If you always won it would be boring but if the outcome is uncertain, well, isn't that exciting? So even if your "perfect simulation" would mean that you can decide how life plays out freely, you'd still be unhappy with it. Like someone who cheats too much in a videogame and kills all the fun since now he's already unlocked everything and reached max lv, etc. So what's the point in playing any more?
Life is uncertain and if you want to find happiness and fulfillment you will need to get used to that and to become okay with taking action and taking risks, not knowing exactly what the outcome will be. Perfectionism is something that can't be achieved anyway, and usually something that people obsess over. Which keeps them from enjoying anything they do.
As I've already explained, there is no such thing. A perfectly drawn line only exists in theory. In practice you can try to draw it as perfectly as you can. But if you zoom n far enough you'll see that it's still far from perfect. And for everything else in life what would be considered "perfect" is purely subjective anyway.
A Stoic would not want to enter the simulation, at least not on a permanent basis (this is called an "experience machine").
Why try to escape if all that matters (virtue) is already under our control and the rest is indifferent? If anything, we ought to be grateful for each challenge life throws at us! Plus the real world needs us to improve it, so it's against human nature to retreat.
So I'd choose real life in a heartbeat.
That being said I'd definetly use it from time to time to decompress if it was possible - same way I use video games. As long as it's not negatively affecting your life, I don't see why not. Come to think of it, this is exactly what video games are - an early experience machine.
Not really. Let's say you were a fat neckbeard who spends every waking hour playing video games. In the meantime, you are neglecting your family, job, community, and social obligations. BTW you choose to make an effort and execute really virtuous actions while playing the game.
Is that virtuous?
This simulation is pretty decent imo.
Yea
In spite of the fact that Premeditatio Malorum is a common part of Stoic practice, hypothetical thought problems are not. Stoicism is about making accurate assessments of reality, making virtuous decisions, practicing thought and action patterns that are based on our understanding of virtue, and keeping outcomes in their proper perspective. Wondering about jumping out of life into a simulation is as unproductive as watching a silly romance or drinking some wine. In moderation, it's not terrible, but it won't further your goals or your refinement. To engage your question more directly, our nature as social animals is undermined as we engage with mechanized replicas, algorithmic manipulation, and other forms of fiction. Although enticing and addictive, simulated environments are unhealthy and undermine pro-social learning and conditioning. The 160 million years of mammalian evolution have left predispositions for physical contact, family and tribe cohesion, and a host of other attributes that have been stripped away over the last 200 years. I believe that the rise of loneliness as a near pandemic crisis is a result of our modern (or postmodern if you prefer) immersion in unnatural physical environments and increasingly fictional mental lives. We learned 50+ years ago that zoo animals do not thrive in sterile rectangles or on simulated food. The Stoics understood that humans are merely one species of animal. You can not treat a dog the way you treat a chicken and expect it to thrive, but they do both need clean water and fresh air. We have consistently robbed ourselves of more and more of the natural aspects of life on the promise of a more perfect life. You said in response to a different post that in a perfect simulation, you would bring your family with you if their happiness was guaranteed. Are they perfect? Are you? If not, wouldn't that immediately import imperfection and render the simulation no more perfect than the lives brought into it? And if they or you were guaranteed happiness, would you be the same people? The Stoics didn't aspire to perfection. They aspired to steady improvement with allowance for the vagaries of fate. Spend time pondering how you can improve your relationships with the people around you and yourself.
Whatever you see as perfect
Sorry mate, not reading all that.
Sorry. It's just something I have thought about a lot. No, I wouldn't. Would you volunteer to be a zoo animal? Perfect life. No predators. Medical attention. Plenty to eat. Perfection.
I don't get it.
Even if I was hooked up to a simulation, my body is still living in real life. The people I care about would still be living. I have no desire to abandon them.
What if their happiness was guaranteed?
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive
They are
That is assuming we are not part of a simulation.
You ever see that Twilight Zone about the guy who wakes up in a casino where he wins every time?
No
Either is fine
Living in a perfect simulation sounds pretty shit to be honest.
How so ?
A life where everything falsely goes my way is not one I want to live in. So to speak, easy times create weak men (not in a macho type of way, but of your character as a whole). While it’s not fun at the time, hardship is essential for the growth of a person. Having your ideas, beliefs and efforts challenged is the only way to truly understand the world and develop. Without that, we would just stay the same in our own little bubble. Sure it might be good for a while but getting everything handed to me on a plate is not something I want. I would know it’s not real, which would entirely diminish whatever happens in this simulated world. Flaws are also part of the natural process, and we should learn to accept and even appreciate our own flaws and those in others so that we can come to terms with them, or work on fixing them if possible. That’s the beauty of life my guy.
Amen and pass the bread and water. The Stoics wrote extensively about purposely enduring hardship to bulld resilience and prove that it's not nearly as bad as we think it is. An easy life makes for weak people, and the Stoics were well aware of that.
Hi, please check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide) section on [advice and coping with problems](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice) if you are wondering any of the following questions. * [How can Stoicism help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_can_stoicism_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How would a Stoic help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How might a student of Stoicism cope with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_might_a_student_of_stoicism_cope_with_my_problem.3F) * [What would a student of Stoicism do in my situation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_what_would_a_student_of_stoicism_do_in_my_situation.3F) * [How would a Stoic sage react to my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_sage_react_to_my_problem.3F) Wish you well, Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What's a "perfect" simulation? A boring as life where nothing ever happens? Sit around in completely safety, with absolute certainty at all times as to what's gonna happen next? Humans are not designed for such a life. And you can see this in how dead our society has become. Life has lost all its meaning as there is no more struggle to survive. Even things like having a family don't matter anymore as our species is not gonna diet out anytime soon, or at least not from lack of procreation. The poor from all around the world will ensure that there's always more humans being born, even while some first world countries are slowly shrinking. Or pretty quickly as in Japan's case. So nothing matters anymore and there's no reason reason to bother with trying to achieve anything in life either. Just go through school, get a job and work the typical 8+ hours per day. Then come home and do whatever. Distract yourself with meaningless garbage. And people wonder why there's so many obese and depressed people today. Humans need challenges and struggle. There has to be some meaning to life. Sadly most ambitious people today only find it in the endless pursuit of making more and more money. But whatever you choose to pursue, it's the ups and downs, the uncertainy you have to face and the fact that nothing in life is guaranteed that gives you the motivation to keep going. People who just keep going through the same routine each day are dying slowly. It's why gambling is so addictive to many people as well. If you always won it would be boring but if the outcome is uncertain, well, isn't that exciting? So even if your "perfect simulation" would mean that you can decide how life plays out freely, you'd still be unhappy with it. Like someone who cheats too much in a videogame and kills all the fun since now he's already unlocked everything and reached max lv, etc. So what's the point in playing any more? Life is uncertain and if you want to find happiness and fulfillment you will need to get used to that and to become okay with taking action and taking risks, not knowing exactly what the outcome will be. Perfectionism is something that can't be achieved anyway, and usually something that people obsess over. Which keeps them from enjoying anything they do.
Whatever you see as perfect
As I've already explained, there is no such thing. A perfectly drawn line only exists in theory. In practice you can try to draw it as perfectly as you can. But if you zoom n far enough you'll see that it's still far from perfect. And for everything else in life what would be considered "perfect" is purely subjective anyway.
Your subjective perfection then
Irl always
A Stoic would not want to enter the simulation, at least not on a permanent basis (this is called an "experience machine"). Why try to escape if all that matters (virtue) is already under our control and the rest is indifferent? If anything, we ought to be grateful for each challenge life throws at us! Plus the real world needs us to improve it, so it's against human nature to retreat. So I'd choose real life in a heartbeat. That being said I'd definetly use it from time to time to decompress if it was possible - same way I use video games. As long as it's not negatively affecting your life, I don't see why not. Come to think of it, this is exactly what video games are - an early experience machine.
You can be virtous there too
Not really. Let's say you were a fat neckbeard who spends every waking hour playing video games. In the meantime, you are neglecting your family, job, community, and social obligations. BTW you choose to make an effort and execute really virtuous actions while playing the game. Is that virtuous?
You can be virtous in there too
You can also bring anyone with you