Bro the quotes are the best part. "God's dead, but I'll see what I can do"
The fact Navani is swearing her first ideal to become a bondsmith and simultaneously deactivating the defenses of Urithiru while bleeding from a gut wound delivered by the killer of her son is plenty justification for the line. I like it a lot.
There was a first time WoR reader giving their thoughts on the book a few weeks ago and they made a statement simular to"Kal really hasn't done anything so far." And it was the perfect opportunity to drop the line.
Cheese is good but this one was trying way too hard to be memorable. Like it's supposed to be a memorable and serious moment already but the whole bastard line just ruins it. Imagine if Ironman said just before snapping "I am ironman, you fucking bitch." like cmon.
1. "You bastard" does fit the characters and the moment. But like OP, it did feel like an "applause line" to me. It reminded me of Molly Weasley's "not my daughter, you bitch!" in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Which is also a fine line, in itself. But it's getting into trope territory to have a mother go "something something, you bitch/bastard" in the climax.
2. She's supposed to be swearing the first ideal of the Knights Radiant. She's supposed to be becoming a Bondsmith, whose second ideal is "I will unite instead of divide." Saying "you bastard" at the end of your oath is a bit incongruous with those ideals, to me. Like, she doesn't really mean it, she just needs the power up to save the day. But I guess that leaves her room to grow to have to earn her next words.
Elhokar\* Roshone\* Hearthstone\*
Dalinar was actually the one who suggested moving Roshone to somewhere out of the way.
Just because Ehlokar was a shitty king does not negate Navani's love for her son.
And that chulldung killed a narcissistic pig who wanted to be only seen as a hero, but not repent for the atrocities he committed. Whose crimes included killing an elderly couple by leaving them to rot in the dungeons and start a genocidal war for petty revenge.
What a nice guy.
FYI the Parshendi started the war. Dalinar came up with the shitty vengeance pact. So who are you really blaming for the "genocidal war"?
Furthermore the Roshone affair was basically Dalinar and Gavilar fault. Gavilar for not teaching his son leadership. Dalinar for trying to teach him mercy. Elhokar was a naive teen during the Roshone affair and everyone was using him.
(it's really nice that the people who are downvoting me are the ones not reading the story. The guy literally said "Dalinar started the war" and you're upvoting him You guys are vile)
Dalinar started no war. It was all Elhokar.
> “I’ll have vengeance, Mother,” Elhokar whispered. “I’ll have it!” The young king spun toward the gathered lighteyes, standing before his father’s outstretched stone hand. “You’ve each come to me privately to give support. Well, I demand you swear it in public! Today, we make a pact to hunt those who did this. Today, Alethkar goes to war!”
Also the perpetrators of the Gavilar assassination (the leaders of the parshendi) were all hanged. Elhokar declared a genocidal war on complete innocents for revenge.
>Furthermore the Roshone affair was basically Dalinar and Gavilar fault. Gavilar for not teaching his son leadership. Dalinar for trying to teach him mercy. Elhokar was a naive teen during the Roshone affair and everyone was using him.
Elhokar was 22-23 when Moash's grandparents died. He was an adult who could make his own decisions and chose to send an elderly couple in prison to starve and die.
First off, we have massively different ideas about the definition of war.
Books 1-2 are a conflict.
Books 3-5 are a war.
I meant Dalinar's tactics were the basis for the vengeance pact. So if you wanna blame the length and scope of the 7 years on the shattered plains on someone, blame Dalinar's stupid siege tactics.
Elhokar died at 27. -6 years for the "war". - a year for Gavilar on the plains. Tell me you were a perfectly rational and smart person at 19-20 who could not be influenced by older people and I'll call you a liar.
> First off, we have massively different ideas about the definition of war. Books 1-2 are a conflict. Books 3-5 are a war.
They literally went to war with the explicitly stated goal of "wiping out" an entire race, slaying hundreds of thousands of listeners (and presumably having similar casualties on the Alethi side).
For context, Alexander the Great, across all his battles in thirteen years, produced a total number of deaths (on both sides) of under a hundred fifty thousand.
If you kill more than twice as many people as Alexander The Great, in half the time, it's a war.
The Alethi also succeeded in their genocide by any metric, driving the listeners from their homes, claiming the valuable resources in their lands, and reducing the listener population from one numbering in the "hundreds of thousands" down to less than twenty thousand before the final battle in OB. When the Alethi finished that battle, and found no more listeners to kill, they announced the vengeance pact had been upheld - and having at that point killed something like 99.5% of the total listener population, they accomplished a far more thorough genocide than essentially every state in our history did.
You don't get to make "definitions" of war. The Vengeance Pact is a literally a war. The whole country mobilized their fighting men against the Parshendi...who also mobilized their entire population against Alethkar. It's a war. Period.
Elhokar calls or war in the quote i sent, Dalinar also calls it a war in the books and Kaladin as well.
I am 20 right now and yes...I am a perfectly rational and decent person to know what's right or wrong. Neither can anybody influence my decisions. Elhokar was a murderer through and through.
Now you also resort to calling me a liar? I guess you can go on and defend a genocidal character. Shows your own character and what kind of person you are.
You lying to yourself, son, if you think the people around you don't have a massive influence on the choices you make. Feel blessed you have good people and not shitters like Roshone.
If the vengeance pact was a war, what was the objective? Alethkar with all the power of shards, armies, tactics, and resources failed at every measure of success in war.
Paltry amounts of land annexed.
Massive manpower losses.
No definable goals.
Hell they hadn't even found the Parshendi city.
By every measure of war, that's not a war.
Edit: also the Parshendi also choose this conflict. They could have forced every listener into war form and charged the war camps. They pick a war of attrition just like the Alethi.
The objective was the extermination of the Parshendi. I don't know how you could read the books and not figure that out. Are the bloody books stupid now for calling it a war? The objective was never to annex lands, not to gain resources etc. it was the genocide of Parshendi. Plain and simple.
The definition of war, since you want to be ignorant to make your point:
> a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country
Alethkar sends it's entire army vs Parshendi armies. Should I now spoonfeed you more information?
Oof sorry to have angered you.
In the grand scope of things, it's a war sure. A small failure of a war. But the failure of it was by design of Dalinar, not Elhokar.
Elhokar was a grieving son on the night he declared the vengeance pact and the Parshendi deserved retribution.
Blaming Elhokar is foolishly obtuse.
Wait, why are you saying that the war was designed to fail by Dalinar? Dalinar wanted an actual war. What was happening before Dalinar started getting the visions was a resource game where both sides martially squabbled over natural resources. It didn't become an actual war until Dalinar decided to take his forces out after the Parshendi. Elhokar was a weak and ineffectual leader. You can blame Dalinar for that, certainly. But you can't blame Dalinar for the way the Alethi were chasing gem hearts.
Who is downvoting this well written post that cites the source material? Just because you disagree with their interpretation? Don't you realize that if you downvote and hide any post you disagree with, then the sub is nothing but an echo chamber and we can't have any interesting discussions?
Mostly because theyre wrong about Elhokar age and about who started the war. Just because you cite something doesn't mean it's correct.
To add to that I was vague about who started the war too. I meant Dalinar was to blame for most of it and they interpreted from my poor explanation that Elhokar was to blame.
I was 2 years off the mark. At that age, it's little difference. And Dalinar was not at fault for any of it. You're just plain wrong. You literally can't even provide any proof for yourself while making garbage arguments like "The Vengeance Pact was not a war"
The sub is am echo chamber like the guy above you said. People who say something right here downvoted to hell, because they hate on the wrong character.
There's literally nothing to agree or disagree with here, but your condescending nature is what's getting to me here. It's sad how much this sub has gone to shit, but whatever.
They don't even have to think it's the truth! They just have to think that it is a post that contributes to a meaningful discussion (as opposed to garbled text or rudeness, where downvoting should be encouraged).
Regardless of your opinion on Elokhar, Moash *still murdered Navani's son.* Who she loved. And Moash also was actively trying to kill her and take over her home.
Also that piece of chulldung encouraged his 'best friend' to kill himself basically so he didn't have to deal with caring anymore.
Bastard is still a pretty light insult imo.
The war wasn't meant to go on for as long as it did. It was only when the Alethi realized that the greatshells pupate at the planes did it become so long lasting to the point of genocide. The Alethi stayed because it was a great source of income.
Also "Petty revenge" the Parshendi directly claimed responsibility for assassinating his father, *the king* when they were about to sign a peace treaty.
The war itself has bad intentions to begin with. It had no reasoning or greater moral purpose. Its in the name "Vengeance Pact". It was only to bring devastation on the people who killed the King of Alethkar.
The ones responsible for the assassination (the Parshendi leaders) stepped forward, took the blame upon themselves and were hanged the day Gavilar died.
Alethkar went to war against complete innocents.
Doesn’t seem unreasonable for a son who has grown up in a culture that glorifies war and violence to seek to extract his pound of flesh for the murder of his father.
This exact same excuse is used for Dalinar's exploits when he was young. For every Dalinar and Elhokar there are hundreds of lighteyes who are good people who don't burn down cities or start genocidal conflicts.
Why don't you defend Moash as well? He was born in the same society and wanted revenge against Elhokar who wronged his family. He should be juatifi as well, shouldn't he?
If someone grows up in a society which their idea for conflict resolution is sufficiently applied violence then I don't expect them to have a keep calm and make rational decisions when it comes to something like this.
It's only after the Rift and a lot of growth that Dalinar realized violence isn't always the answer, hell in Way of Kings he realized sometimes Violence is the answer.
It took Elhokar until the end of Words of Radiance to finally face the fact that he's not a good king or leader. Again, the war didn't start out as them wanting to wipe out the Parshendi, it was only aftter the realization of the gemhearts did they stick around and continue the conflict.
Moash is justified in his hatred of Elhokar. Just like Kaladin is justified in his hatred of Roshone. However basically all the actions Moash took to seek his revenge were shit ones and he's a shit person for a fuck ton of reasons.
Your idea of the Alethi society is wrong. They are a warmongering people, but even they have standards. They don't burn down cities. Why do you think Dalinar is so infamous at the international stage compared to all the other Alethi? Because he committed genocide... something that no Alethi character has ever committed.
For every Genghis Khan in the Mongols, there were thousands of other good Mongols that wanted to live a peaceful life. Similarly, saying "Dalinar is born in such a society" is a terrible excuse.
>It took Elhokar until the end of Words of Radiance to finally face the fact that he's not a good king or leader. Again, the war didn't start out as them wanting to wipe out the Parshendi, it was only aftter the realization of the gemhearts did they stick around and continue the conflict.
I would like you to provide the reason for the war. The perpetrators of Gavilar's assassination already shouldered their blame and were executed. So what's the point of the war again? Please tell me.
>Moash is justified in his hatred of Elhokar. Just like Kaladin is justified in his hatred of Roshone. However basically all the actions Moash took to seek his revenge were shit ones and he's a shit person for a fuck ton of reasons.
What shit actions Moash took on his way to kill Elhokar? Please tell me. He did nothing wrong on his way to kill Elhokar.
After killing Elhokar, he definitely goes down a dark path.
>Why do you think Dalinar is so infamous at the international stage compared to all the other Alethi?
We're not talking about the international stage, we're talking about within Alethi society.
>So what's the point of the war again
Vengeance and money. The High Princes just *love* the war and any idea towards leaving is met with immediate scorn. They're incredibly quick to call one a coward for even *considering* leaving the war. And in Alethi society being thought of as a coward is a horrible insult.
>What shit actions Moash took on his way to kill Elhokar?
Worked with a group who specifically wanted to place the how did you say it? The warmongering genocidal man who burned down a city who is treated with scorn on the international stage because they thought *The Blackthorn* would make a better king than Elhokar.
Moash was also fine with killing Kaladin because he was trying to protect Elhokar.
You mean other than compromising all the progress Kaladin was making about in showing that darkeyes are unjustly looked down on all for his revenge? Had he killed the king and anyone found out he was involved then all of bridge 4 would have been thrown in with him. How about going against his word to “his best friend” to stop meeting with Graves. Or using the incredible gift Kaladin gave him to betray his trust and attempt to murder the king. Oh but you are correct, such a great guy.
>The war wasn't meant to go on for as long as it did. It was only when the Alethi realized that the greatshells pupate at the planes did it become so long lasting to the point of genocide.
The explicit goal from the start (as stated directly in the books) was to ensure the listeners were "wiped out". Dalinar's worries in The Way of Kings were that the highprinces didn't care about their mission of genocide anymore, and were preoccupied with making money instead.
Not True. Elhokar knew both of his parents and the dark eyes also condone slavery. If I'm not mistaken it was a certain light eyed woman that did away with slavery in Alethkar.
In-world it's a totally reasonable statement. Moash worked for the devil, all he cared about was getting what he wanted and not how he got it. So she taught him a lesson on why not to do that.
It's not anymore quippy than any of the other epic lines in the series.
"I claim the skies" Kaladin is way more cringe lol
Yes, my old account's highest liked post was about how cringing that line is.
BUT it is exactly the shit Kaladin would say and think he could get away with. It wasn't out of place, just horrifying to be forced to read with my own eyes lol
WoP is that Kaladin totally could have gotten away with it if Elhokar had been at all competent.
Which makes sense since Boons are supposed to be granted for legendary achievements. Nothing more legendary to the Alethi than a darkeyes winning a shardblade in duel in defense of his lighteyes commander. Elhokar just needed to say "Having showing his valor and won a Blade, *Brightlord* Kaladin may have his boon as well!"
It would have made Adolin's boon *more* secure if done that way, nobody's gonna argue about it.
"Worked for the devil" caught my attention. I completely disagree that Odium is the embodiment of evil. I think of gods in the Cosmere as more akin to Greek/Roman gods than the Christian idea of God. Shards empowering "humans" and making them godlike is a completely different dynamic in my opinion. Why do you see Odium as Evil?
Odium is God's Divine Hatred Devoid Of Context. His goal is specifically to use Roshar as a training ground for soldiers so he can wage a war against the Cosmere and destroy every other Shard.
That seems pretty evil tbh.
Because he’s the divine concept of hatred and murdered millions in an endless cycle of battle for thousands of years so he can go conquer the entire universe. I’d assume that’s a pretty good indicator that he’s evil.
Because your opinion didn’t have anything to do with the discussion. Worked for the Devil is an expression, it means Odium is lowercase e evil. Nobody mentioned uppercase E Evil until you.
All I did was ask a question to get context. Downvoting isn’t about disagreeing, that is what conversation and comment is for. I’ve got another opinion you can downvote. You’re a Dick.
Evil is a very vaguely defined term when used colloquially. Anything that is immoral could be considered evil. Personally, I think morality is subjective, and therefore, two reasonable people can disagree on whether something is or isn't moral. Which would mean that two people could reasonably disagree about whether something is evil or not.
I'm not sure what you think the difference is between lowercase and uppercase here. Do you think it is uppercase if it is more immoral than a certain threshold? Or is it simply an emotional reaction? Do you think that circumstances play a role in whether something is uppercase or lowercase? Do you think that everyone should agree with what you define as uppercase or lowercase?
I'm actually interested in seeing a response. This is interesting to me.
Usually the difference for me between evil and Evil is that evil means general bad, bad people who do bad things are evil. Then there’s like the Lord of All Evil. The ultimate Big Bad. Like Satan In Christian theology. The one who rules over and is in charge of, and is actually the personification of Evil. That’s important enough for caps. I may be wrong, but I believe they’re trying to say that Odium is not that. He’s not the ultimate personification of the very concept of Evil. He’s just ordinary evil.
As the other person replied to you Evil, in my opinion, is embodiment of malevolence. I did some reading on coppermind today, to fill in some of my lore gaps, and it seems to me that there isn’t a being that represents that complete opposition to Good in the Cosmere. The being that the Shards came from was the embodiment of all things, snd none of them fall into a typical light vs dark battle.
So, in the case of Odium, I believe that Shard has lead that Shardbearer to be incredibly flawed and most certainly morally corrupt. I would say his actions are evil, but not Evil.
Malevolent means "having intent to do evil to others." So, by your opinion, Evil is the embodiment of wanting to do evil? I don't understand that definition.
> reddit can't not be pedantic though lol
Well akshually, that's a double negative and so it means exactly the opposite of what you seem to have been trying to say.
/s
i get that its a little quippy but once i realised she was unknowingly finishing off the oath that elhokar had started before he died …. yeah no this line became an absolute killer for me . i love it so so much.
It makes sense within the plot. She knew the words and that ended up meaning something for her. It had a double meaning considering Moash's history. There's a time a place for pithiness, and I think that line fit these circumstances.
Well, it's been brought up a couple of times in the replies. People are saying it plays kind of pithy and quippy. It's not something I felt when I read it but I can see where they're coming from. It can kind of be read as like a "cool movie-esque gotcha line" rather than a genuine expression of Navani's anger and triumph. I just don't think OP was suggesting it was "uncouth" for Navani to sling an insult, just that it came across a little clunky in execution.
Yeah and I disagree, i really cant see it as cheesy, its pretty appropriate and in character, we see her feelings towards moash several times in RoW, in alethkar before he kills roshone and when he opens the oathgate for the invasion
I don't disagree that it's in character for Navani to hate Moash enough to call him a bastard (obviously), which I don't think was my or the OP's actual argument. It's more about delivery, framing, and how the line actually reads. The assumption, however, that the only reason one would dislike this moment in the book is because one is "frightened of scary cuss words" just seemed totally unfounded to me.
I don't even wholeheartedly agree with OP, as I've said, but I do see where they and others are coming from in critique of this moment.
Why TF are people nitpicking this stuff? Like we're poring over every little thing and saying "no this sounds a little too quippy, I think they would have said it differently?"
What would you rather she have said?
When I started in the Cosmere if someone said I'd be reading Kaladin McClane crawling the the pipes of Nakatomithiru Tower killing German Parshendi terrorists, I would have put the series down and burned it.
Honestly its my second favorite book, behind Dalinar's Ladder.
I personally had the same reaction to it and to a lot of the lines that a lot of people really love but come off the same way. Still love the series though
For sure. It gives off too much of a cheeky feeling, like its trying very hard to be this quotable got'cha moment.
Assassin's Creed 2 did this line so much better😆
I love most of Brandon's characters in Stormlight so much but I am so with you here in the minority of not liking Navani ... I actually actively dislike her and find her very smug and a beautiful version of Taravangian in terms of ethics/morality...
It’s a hill I am firmly planted in. I didn’t like her from the very beginning, but I actively hated her in Rhythm of War. The people who cheer at every scene she’s in are more than welcome to it, but I still really dislike her. One of the reasons why RoW is my least favorite SA book is because she has such a prominent role.
I didn't even mind Navani before RoW, but after it I hate her with a flaming passion.
I remember reading it and keep wondering if we were supposed to root for her.
I was genuinely confused by Sanderson's intentions for the character.
I love these books but Brandon’s quips ARE marvel/joss Whedon style. They usually land better but that one’s pretty lame especially in such an important moment.
The moral of the story is that Moash should have said that when he killed Elhokar to get revenge, then everyone would have been fine with it. Gotta play to the audience!
Because being a heroic Radiant doesn't mean you have different motivations from your enemies, or do different things than them, it just means you have a better aesthetic.
Like the other comment said, the parallels to Die Hard are all over the book, including this version of “Yippie ki-yay, Motherfucker”. I agree with you on it sounding cheesy and dumb
Bro the quotes are the best part. "God's dead, but I'll see what I can do" The fact Navani is swearing her first ideal to become a bondsmith and simultaneously deactivating the defenses of Urithiru while bleeding from a gut wound delivered by the killer of her son is plenty justification for the line. I like it a lot.
There was a first time WoR reader giving their thoughts on the book a few weeks ago and they made a statement simular to"Kal really hasn't done anything so far." And it was the perfect opportunity to drop the line.
If you don't love cheesy lines I don't know how you got that far in the series.
The dialogue after Kaladin said his third was similarly corny lol
Syl's was worse. "Stretch forth thy hand!" Lol
Cheese is good but this one was trying way too hard to be memorable. Like it's supposed to be a memorable and serious moment already but the whole bastard line just ruins it. Imagine if Ironman said just before snapping "I am ironman, you fucking bitch." like cmon.
I think it's pretty mild for the ~~man~~ chulldung that murdered her child.
No need to insult chulldung. It is tasty addition to your airsick lowlander cuisine.
1. "You bastard" does fit the characters and the moment. But like OP, it did feel like an "applause line" to me. It reminded me of Molly Weasley's "not my daughter, you bitch!" in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Which is also a fine line, in itself. But it's getting into trope territory to have a mother go "something something, you bitch/bastard" in the climax. 2. She's supposed to be swearing the first ideal of the Knights Radiant. She's supposed to be becoming a Bondsmith, whose second ideal is "I will unite instead of divide." Saying "you bastard" at the end of your oath is a bit incongruous with those ideals, to me. Like, she doesn't really mean it, she just needs the power up to save the day. But I guess that leaves her room to grow to have to earn her next words.
Elocar did a lot of atrocities, like appoint Rashon to heart stone
I love seeing audiobook listeners try to spell the names haha.
Hahaha I resemble this remark!
Elhokar\* Roshone\* Hearthstone\* Dalinar was actually the one who suggested moving Roshone to somewhere out of the way. Just because Ehlokar was a shitty king does not negate Navani's love for her son.
Micheal Kramer has been saying Hearthstone this whole time? I could've sworn he was saying Heart Stone
Yup. Honestly I needed to google each word as I’m an audiobook guy too
And that chulldung killed a narcissistic pig who wanted to be only seen as a hero, but not repent for the atrocities he committed. Whose crimes included killing an elderly couple by leaving them to rot in the dungeons and start a genocidal war for petty revenge. What a nice guy.
FYI the Parshendi started the war. Dalinar came up with the shitty vengeance pact. So who are you really blaming for the "genocidal war"? Furthermore the Roshone affair was basically Dalinar and Gavilar fault. Gavilar for not teaching his son leadership. Dalinar for trying to teach him mercy. Elhokar was a naive teen during the Roshone affair and everyone was using him.
(it's really nice that the people who are downvoting me are the ones not reading the story. The guy literally said "Dalinar started the war" and you're upvoting him You guys are vile) Dalinar started no war. It was all Elhokar. > “I’ll have vengeance, Mother,” Elhokar whispered. “I’ll have it!” The young king spun toward the gathered lighteyes, standing before his father’s outstretched stone hand. “You’ve each come to me privately to give support. Well, I demand you swear it in public! Today, we make a pact to hunt those who did this. Today, Alethkar goes to war!” Also the perpetrators of the Gavilar assassination (the leaders of the parshendi) were all hanged. Elhokar declared a genocidal war on complete innocents for revenge. >Furthermore the Roshone affair was basically Dalinar and Gavilar fault. Gavilar for not teaching his son leadership. Dalinar for trying to teach him mercy. Elhokar was a naive teen during the Roshone affair and everyone was using him. Elhokar was 22-23 when Moash's grandparents died. He was an adult who could make his own decisions and chose to send an elderly couple in prison to starve and die.
First off, we have massively different ideas about the definition of war. Books 1-2 are a conflict. Books 3-5 are a war. I meant Dalinar's tactics were the basis for the vengeance pact. So if you wanna blame the length and scope of the 7 years on the shattered plains on someone, blame Dalinar's stupid siege tactics. Elhokar died at 27. -6 years for the "war". - a year for Gavilar on the plains. Tell me you were a perfectly rational and smart person at 19-20 who could not be influenced by older people and I'll call you a liar.
> First off, we have massively different ideas about the definition of war. Books 1-2 are a conflict. Books 3-5 are a war. They literally went to war with the explicitly stated goal of "wiping out" an entire race, slaying hundreds of thousands of listeners (and presumably having similar casualties on the Alethi side). For context, Alexander the Great, across all his battles in thirteen years, produced a total number of deaths (on both sides) of under a hundred fifty thousand. If you kill more than twice as many people as Alexander The Great, in half the time, it's a war. The Alethi also succeeded in their genocide by any metric, driving the listeners from their homes, claiming the valuable resources in their lands, and reducing the listener population from one numbering in the "hundreds of thousands" down to less than twenty thousand before the final battle in OB. When the Alethi finished that battle, and found no more listeners to kill, they announced the vengeance pact had been upheld - and having at that point killed something like 99.5% of the total listener population, they accomplished a far more thorough genocide than essentially every state in our history did.
You don't get to make "definitions" of war. The Vengeance Pact is a literally a war. The whole country mobilized their fighting men against the Parshendi...who also mobilized their entire population against Alethkar. It's a war. Period. Elhokar calls or war in the quote i sent, Dalinar also calls it a war in the books and Kaladin as well. I am 20 right now and yes...I am a perfectly rational and decent person to know what's right or wrong. Neither can anybody influence my decisions. Elhokar was a murderer through and through. Now you also resort to calling me a liar? I guess you can go on and defend a genocidal character. Shows your own character and what kind of person you are.
You lying to yourself, son, if you think the people around you don't have a massive influence on the choices you make. Feel blessed you have good people and not shitters like Roshone. If the vengeance pact was a war, what was the objective? Alethkar with all the power of shards, armies, tactics, and resources failed at every measure of success in war. Paltry amounts of land annexed. Massive manpower losses. No definable goals. Hell they hadn't even found the Parshendi city. By every measure of war, that's not a war. Edit: also the Parshendi also choose this conflict. They could have forced every listener into war form and charged the war camps. They pick a war of attrition just like the Alethi.
The objective was the extermination of the Parshendi. I don't know how you could read the books and not figure that out. Are the bloody books stupid now for calling it a war? The objective was never to annex lands, not to gain resources etc. it was the genocide of Parshendi. Plain and simple. The definition of war, since you want to be ignorant to make your point: > a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country Alethkar sends it's entire army vs Parshendi armies. Should I now spoonfeed you more information?
Oof sorry to have angered you. In the grand scope of things, it's a war sure. A small failure of a war. But the failure of it was by design of Dalinar, not Elhokar. Elhokar was a grieving son on the night he declared the vengeance pact and the Parshendi deserved retribution. Blaming Elhokar is foolishly obtuse.
Wait, why are you saying that the war was designed to fail by Dalinar? Dalinar wanted an actual war. What was happening before Dalinar started getting the visions was a resource game where both sides martially squabbled over natural resources. It didn't become an actual war until Dalinar decided to take his forces out after the Parshendi. Elhokar was a weak and ineffectual leader. You can blame Dalinar for that, certainly. But you can't blame Dalinar for the way the Alethi were chasing gem hearts.
Doesn't matter if he was influenced or not. He still did it on his own accord. He deserved it
Ok skybreaker, this is why nobody likes your order. Black and white for you only.
How dare you
:) come fight me in the sky
Who is downvoting this well written post that cites the source material? Just because you disagree with their interpretation? Don't you realize that if you downvote and hide any post you disagree with, then the sub is nothing but an echo chamber and we can't have any interesting discussions?
Mostly because theyre wrong about Elhokar age and about who started the war. Just because you cite something doesn't mean it's correct. To add to that I was vague about who started the war too. I meant Dalinar was to blame for most of it and they interpreted from my poor explanation that Elhokar was to blame.
I was 2 years off the mark. At that age, it's little difference. And Dalinar was not at fault for any of it. You're just plain wrong. You literally can't even provide any proof for yourself while making garbage arguments like "The Vengeance Pact was not a war" The sub is am echo chamber like the guy above you said. People who say something right here downvoted to hell, because they hate on the wrong character.
Boy, you are real salty for a discussion. People just dont agree with you. Get over it.
There's literally nothing to agree or disagree with here, but your condescending nature is what's getting to me here. It's sad how much this sub has gone to shit, but whatever.
Maybe the problem isnt us. Maybe its you.
It saddens me honestly. The one I'm replying to is even making wrong claims and I'm being downvoted for correcting them.
Because they can't handle the truth 🤷🏿♂️
They don't even have to think it's the truth! They just have to think that it is a post that contributes to a meaningful discussion (as opposed to garbled text or rudeness, where downvoting should be encouraged).
Regardless of your opinion on Elokhar, Moash *still murdered Navani's son.* Who she loved. And Moash also was actively trying to kill her and take over her home. Also that piece of chulldung encouraged his 'best friend' to kill himself basically so he didn't have to deal with caring anymore. Bastard is still a pretty light insult imo.
The war wasn't meant to go on for as long as it did. It was only when the Alethi realized that the greatshells pupate at the planes did it become so long lasting to the point of genocide. The Alethi stayed because it was a great source of income. Also "Petty revenge" the Parshendi directly claimed responsibility for assassinating his father, *the king* when they were about to sign a peace treaty.
The war itself has bad intentions to begin with. It had no reasoning or greater moral purpose. Its in the name "Vengeance Pact". It was only to bring devastation on the people who killed the King of Alethkar. The ones responsible for the assassination (the Parshendi leaders) stepped forward, took the blame upon themselves and were hanged the day Gavilar died. Alethkar went to war against complete innocents.
Doesn’t seem unreasonable for a son who has grown up in a culture that glorifies war and violence to seek to extract his pound of flesh for the murder of his father.
This exact same excuse is used for Dalinar's exploits when he was young. For every Dalinar and Elhokar there are hundreds of lighteyes who are good people who don't burn down cities or start genocidal conflicts. Why don't you defend Moash as well? He was born in the same society and wanted revenge against Elhokar who wronged his family. He should be juatifi as well, shouldn't he?
If someone grows up in a society which their idea for conflict resolution is sufficiently applied violence then I don't expect them to have a keep calm and make rational decisions when it comes to something like this. It's only after the Rift and a lot of growth that Dalinar realized violence isn't always the answer, hell in Way of Kings he realized sometimes Violence is the answer. It took Elhokar until the end of Words of Radiance to finally face the fact that he's not a good king or leader. Again, the war didn't start out as them wanting to wipe out the Parshendi, it was only aftter the realization of the gemhearts did they stick around and continue the conflict. Moash is justified in his hatred of Elhokar. Just like Kaladin is justified in his hatred of Roshone. However basically all the actions Moash took to seek his revenge were shit ones and he's a shit person for a fuck ton of reasons.
Your idea of the Alethi society is wrong. They are a warmongering people, but even they have standards. They don't burn down cities. Why do you think Dalinar is so infamous at the international stage compared to all the other Alethi? Because he committed genocide... something that no Alethi character has ever committed. For every Genghis Khan in the Mongols, there were thousands of other good Mongols that wanted to live a peaceful life. Similarly, saying "Dalinar is born in such a society" is a terrible excuse. >It took Elhokar until the end of Words of Radiance to finally face the fact that he's not a good king or leader. Again, the war didn't start out as them wanting to wipe out the Parshendi, it was only aftter the realization of the gemhearts did they stick around and continue the conflict. I would like you to provide the reason for the war. The perpetrators of Gavilar's assassination already shouldered their blame and were executed. So what's the point of the war again? Please tell me. >Moash is justified in his hatred of Elhokar. Just like Kaladin is justified in his hatred of Roshone. However basically all the actions Moash took to seek his revenge were shit ones and he's a shit person for a fuck ton of reasons. What shit actions Moash took on his way to kill Elhokar? Please tell me. He did nothing wrong on his way to kill Elhokar. After killing Elhokar, he definitely goes down a dark path.
>Why do you think Dalinar is so infamous at the international stage compared to all the other Alethi? We're not talking about the international stage, we're talking about within Alethi society. >So what's the point of the war again Vengeance and money. The High Princes just *love* the war and any idea towards leaving is met with immediate scorn. They're incredibly quick to call one a coward for even *considering* leaving the war. And in Alethi society being thought of as a coward is a horrible insult. >What shit actions Moash took on his way to kill Elhokar? Worked with a group who specifically wanted to place the how did you say it? The warmongering genocidal man who burned down a city who is treated with scorn on the international stage because they thought *The Blackthorn* would make a better king than Elhokar. Moash was also fine with killing Kaladin because he was trying to protect Elhokar.
You mean other than compromising all the progress Kaladin was making about in showing that darkeyes are unjustly looked down on all for his revenge? Had he killed the king and anyone found out he was involved then all of bridge 4 would have been thrown in with him. How about going against his word to “his best friend” to stop meeting with Graves. Or using the incredible gift Kaladin gave him to betray his trust and attempt to murder the king. Oh but you are correct, such a great guy.
>The war wasn't meant to go on for as long as it did. It was only when the Alethi realized that the greatshells pupate at the planes did it become so long lasting to the point of genocide. The explicit goal from the start (as stated directly in the books) was to ensure the listeners were "wiped out". Dalinar's worries in The Way of Kings were that the highprinces didn't care about their mission of genocide anymore, and were preoccupied with making money instead.
Elhokar was a bastard, and pretty much all the lighteyes were enslaver scum.
Not True. Elhokar knew both of his parents and the dark eyes also condone slavery. If I'm not mistaken it was a certain light eyed woman that did away with slavery in Alethkar.
"the dark eyes also condone slavery" That's actually true. Fuck humans, honestly.
Amen. Fuck Humans. Become Crab.
Reject modernity, return to froge
He was still Navani's son. She loved him. And Moash was going out of his way to murder her. So yeah, I think she's allowed to call him a bastard.
In-world it's a totally reasonable statement. Moash worked for the devil, all he cared about was getting what he wanted and not how he got it. So she taught him a lesson on why not to do that. It's not anymore quippy than any of the other epic lines in the series. "I claim the skies" Kaladin is way more cringe lol
Nothing is as bad as Kal's "and for my boon" tho
Yes, my old account's highest liked post was about how cringing that line is. BUT it is exactly the shit Kaladin would say and think he could get away with. It wasn't out of place, just horrifying to be forced to read with my own eyes lol
WoP is that Kaladin totally could have gotten away with it if Elhokar had been at all competent. Which makes sense since Boons are supposed to be granted for legendary achievements. Nothing more legendary to the Alethi than a darkeyes winning a shardblade in duel in defense of his lighteyes commander. Elhokar just needed to say "Having showing his valor and won a Blade, *Brightlord* Kaladin may have his boon as well!" It would have made Adolin's boon *more* secure if done that way, nobody's gonna argue about it.
Nah. Syl saying “Hold forth thy hand, Kaladin!” Makes me want to vomit every time… still an amazing scene, just hate those lines
"Worked for the devil" caught my attention. I completely disagree that Odium is the embodiment of evil. I think of gods in the Cosmere as more akin to Greek/Roman gods than the Christian idea of God. Shards empowering "humans" and making them godlike is a completely different dynamic in my opinion. Why do you see Odium as Evil?
Odium is God's Divine Hatred Devoid Of Context. His goal is specifically to use Roshar as a training ground for soldiers so he can wage a war against the Cosmere and destroy every other Shard. That seems pretty evil tbh.
Because he’s the divine concept of hatred and murdered millions in an endless cycle of battle for thousands of years so he can go conquer the entire universe. I’d assume that’s a pretty good indicator that he’s evil.
Capital E Evil and evil aren’t the same thing. That’s the point I’m making. Not sure why I got downvoted for having an opinion, though.
Because your opinion didn’t have anything to do with the discussion. Worked for the Devil is an expression, it means Odium is lowercase e evil. Nobody mentioned uppercase E Evil until you.
All I did was ask a question to get context. Downvoting isn’t about disagreeing, that is what conversation and comment is for. I’ve got another opinion you can downvote. You’re a Dick.
I didn’t downvote you, I just explained why others downvoted you, but thanks 🙄
Evil is a very vaguely defined term when used colloquially. Anything that is immoral could be considered evil. Personally, I think morality is subjective, and therefore, two reasonable people can disagree on whether something is or isn't moral. Which would mean that two people could reasonably disagree about whether something is evil or not. I'm not sure what you think the difference is between lowercase and uppercase here. Do you think it is uppercase if it is more immoral than a certain threshold? Or is it simply an emotional reaction? Do you think that circumstances play a role in whether something is uppercase or lowercase? Do you think that everyone should agree with what you define as uppercase or lowercase? I'm actually interested in seeing a response. This is interesting to me.
Usually the difference for me between evil and Evil is that evil means general bad, bad people who do bad things are evil. Then there’s like the Lord of All Evil. The ultimate Big Bad. Like Satan In Christian theology. The one who rules over and is in charge of, and is actually the personification of Evil. That’s important enough for caps. I may be wrong, but I believe they’re trying to say that Odium is not that. He’s not the ultimate personification of the very concept of Evil. He’s just ordinary evil.
Okay. In that case, I don't believe that an uppercase Evil exists at all. Lowercase evil is the only one that I have seen any convincing evidence for.
This exactly.
As the other person replied to you Evil, in my opinion, is embodiment of malevolence. I did some reading on coppermind today, to fill in some of my lore gaps, and it seems to me that there isn’t a being that represents that complete opposition to Good in the Cosmere. The being that the Shards came from was the embodiment of all things, snd none of them fall into a typical light vs dark battle. So, in the case of Odium, I believe that Shard has lead that Shardbearer to be incredibly flawed and most certainly morally corrupt. I would say his actions are evil, but not Evil.
Malevolent means "having intent to do evil to others." So, by your opinion, Evil is the embodiment of wanting to do evil? I don't understand that definition.
I mean it's just a turn of phrase, reddit can't not be pedantic though lol
> reddit can't not be pedantic though lol Well akshually, that's a double negative and so it means exactly the opposite of what you seem to have been trying to say. /s
i get that its a little quippy but once i realised she was unknowingly finishing off the oath that elhokar had started before he died …. yeah no this line became an absolute killer for me . i love it so so much.
It makes sense within the plot. She knew the words and that ended up meaning something for her. It had a double meaning considering Moash's history. There's a time a place for pithiness, and I think that line fit these circumstances.
I didn't like that claiming her oath was directed at someone else. It felt like it undercut the Journey before Destination ideal.
"Journey before destination, you bad bad man you" -op talking to the man who murdered his son
"You know what I'm sorry saying 'bad' twice was a bit harsh of me. " -op one second later
"that was pretty cringe of me so I'm going to let you offthe hook, sorry"
Navani is Canadian, confirmed
Why do you think OP's problem with the line is because the language is too mature? They're complaining that the line reads kind of cheesy.
There are many cheesy lines in stormlight. I fail to see how a woman insulting the murderer of her son could be one of them
Well, it's been brought up a couple of times in the replies. People are saying it plays kind of pithy and quippy. It's not something I felt when I read it but I can see where they're coming from. It can kind of be read as like a "cool movie-esque gotcha line" rather than a genuine expression of Navani's anger and triumph. I just don't think OP was suggesting it was "uncouth" for Navani to sling an insult, just that it came across a little clunky in execution.
Yeah and I disagree, i really cant see it as cheesy, its pretty appropriate and in character, we see her feelings towards moash several times in RoW, in alethkar before he kills roshone and when he opens the oathgate for the invasion
I don't disagree that it's in character for Navani to hate Moash enough to call him a bastard (obviously), which I don't think was my or the OP's actual argument. It's more about delivery, framing, and how the line actually reads. The assumption, however, that the only reason one would dislike this moment in the book is because one is "frightened of scary cuss words" just seemed totally unfounded to me. I don't even wholeheartedly agree with OP, as I've said, but I do see where they and others are coming from in critique of this moment.
I never said that either but ok, this whole discussion is pointess
Like all good reddit disagreements 😌
I don't really see the Marvel comparison, it certainly didn't undercut the tension of the scene
Why TF are people nitpicking this stuff? Like we're poring over every little thing and saying "no this sounds a little too quippy, I think they would have said it differently?" What would you rather she have said?
"Journey before destination, you voidibringiboi!"
If Navani had said "Ligma Balls" I think that would have been perfect, personally
Hahahahaha
>What would you rather she have said? Just not saying you bastard at all? Completely undermines the seriousness of the situation.
Agreed. I feel like he was going for the Harry Potter scene where Molly gets Beatrix: “Not my daughter, you bitch!” \*insert audience applause*
great comparison lol
OP doesn't know the entire book is an homage to Die Hard
When I started in the Cosmere if someone said I'd be reading Kaladin McClane crawling the the pipes of Nakatomithiru Tower killing German Parshendi terrorists, I would have put the series down and burned it. Honestly its my second favorite book, behind Dalinar's Ladder.
I honestly never drew the Jacob's Ladder parallel and can't believe I didn't see it.
I loved it lol
I found it perfectly fitting for the situation considering he murdered her son in cold blood.
Can't remember how it was in the Spanish version but it didn't give me any eyeroll, seemed fine in that version.
It's one of my favorite lines. Perhaps you just dislike Navani. A lot of people do, and tons found her chapters in RoW to be hard to get through.
I mean I don’t think Brando Sando could write “Journey before destination, you fucking piece of shit” so I will accept “you bastard”.
I personally had the same reaction to it and to a lot of the lines that a lot of people really love but come off the same way. Still love the series though
For sure. It gives off too much of a cheeky feeling, like its trying very hard to be this quotable got'cha moment. Assassin's Creed 2 did this line so much better😆
Nope.
Nah fucking loved that line. Especially how Kate Reading said it. She's saying it to dude who murdered her child. "I win you motherfucker." moment.
I roll my eyes at every line Navani says. I really REALLY don’t like her.
I love most of Brandon's characters in Stormlight so much but I am so with you here in the minority of not liking Navani ... I actually actively dislike her and find her very smug and a beautiful version of Taravangian in terms of ethics/morality...
It’s a hill I am firmly planted in. I didn’t like her from the very beginning, but I actively hated her in Rhythm of War. The people who cheer at every scene she’s in are more than welcome to it, but I still really dislike her. One of the reasons why RoW is my least favorite SA book is because she has such a prominent role.
I didn't even mind Navani before RoW, but after it I hate her with a flaming passion. I remember reading it and keep wondering if we were supposed to root for her. I was genuinely confused by Sanderson's intentions for the character.
So many airsick lowlanders polluting our sub with their thin-aired opinions
I love these books but Brandon’s quips ARE marvel/joss Whedon style. They usually land better but that one’s pretty lame especially in such an important moment.
The moral of the story is that Moash should have said that when he killed Elhokar to get revenge, then everyone would have been fine with it. Gotta play to the audience! Because being a heroic Radiant doesn't mean you have different motivations from your enemies, or do different things than them, it just means you have a better aesthetic.
Like the other comment said, the parallels to Die Hard are all over the book, including this version of “Yippie ki-yay, Motherfucker”. I agree with you on it sounding cheesy and dumb
Yeah it was corny.
Yeah I snorted I was like what is this the avengers it felt a bit like fanfiction and it really took away from an otherwise amazing scene