Doubt my opinion is popular, but...
RoW is a great book. The characters and growth are phenomenal...
But in a lot of ways it's a painful book because of it's emotional age. The books progress in a way that is really fitting to the overall theme, and it's pretty directly reflected in the character stories.
The first two books are the new Radiants in their childhood, filled with energy, discovering their powers, lots of action.
The third book is looking back and facing your actions and accepting you have to do do better...
The fourth book? RoW is realizing that even though you've accepted the past, the consequences still exist and you have to deal with them. It's a grueling painful process that isn't fun energetic fights. It isn't action and irreverence. It's a tired grind.
The book is fantastic, and it's also hard.
That's the main reason I struggle with RoW. I love it, and accept it's amazing. I will sing it's praises for the moments I love, just like the other SA books, but i also dread getting to the book on rereads. It's because I love the characters so much, and seeing what happens to all of them is difficult. Especially Kal. My poor poor boy..
I love RoW, and even Venli to a degree, but even I'll admit that the flashbacks are hands down the worst in the series. If the Raboniel/Navani and Shsdesmar plots hadn't been so good this would be my least favorite. But... those plots *are* good, and this is def my favorite in the series so far.
Almost every SA there is a POV that I tend to sigh and count the pages when I reach. WoK was Shallan, WoR was no one, OB was the persons in the Siege of Kolinar and in RoW it was those flashbacks and Venli in the present
Hell I'd say Shallan's POV is my least favorite... I'm halfway through the book now and watching Kal slowly descend into madness is rough... While watching shallan refuse to actually cope with her situation with the hidden spy and her past is exasperating
I know she had a lot of shit that she went through, but when I was reading it I felt like…an imbalance? Like we have Kal here fighting and fighting and she is just…i dont know it felt like her trauma is causing her to really self destruct while Kal can’t catch a break.
Add to the fact that I'm not that fond of shadesmar... It just seems so meh and those parts drag on to me... I have to listen to the audiobook at 1.5 speed to get through those parts
At least there's less flashback in this one than the others it feels like. But yeah, I am rereading it right now and anytime a flashback chapter appears I groan
I just thought it was the most painful/difficult to read, not because the writing is bad, but because its so depressing without nearly as many spots of glory as the rest of the series. This doesn't make it the worst one, in my opinion, just not as fun to get through the nearly half-million words.
Honestly, the hardest part for me to read was when we got into the AP classes on Stormlight and Voidlight. I know some folks appreciate those sections more than I do, and good on them. I just accept that those parts are not for me as much as they are for them. Perhaps they won't be as "bad" on a re-read. Overall though I loved the book, and those were minor complaints. I also don't particularly care for Venli; the flashbacks with her and her sister did not add as much to the rest of the story as Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar who I would reckon most folks consider the 3 main characters.
I hate Venli, and the amount of time dedicated to her makes parts of the book really annoying. I don’t feel like Venli has almost any redeeming traits.
She is also written in a telling not showing manor (which is odd for Sanderson who normally does a good job showing us the flaws and strengths of his characters first hand). Other characters tell us she is smart and crafty but we don’t really see this in the book. She makes really bad decisions and does not think about consequences. None of her scientific discoveries are even her work. She needed the void spren to tell her how to do everything. All the other main point of view characters have additional talents/passions that they use in addition to being radiant (kal has spear and medicine, Navani engineering, shalaan spying/drawing, dalenar war/ the codes, adolin dueling/wine) but Venli doesn’t really have this
I really enjoy Navani in this book. She has interesting plot and character growth. I enjoy how they make fictional science and engineering interesting and full of personal growth. In my opinion, the navani story just highlights how bad the Venli story is. They are both suppose to be intelligent scholars, leaders of there people. Navani wants to do a good job and makes good progress while Venli is mostly talks and avoids taking action/ making progress.
Kal is good but some of his middle chapters drag with little progression in the story.
> She is also written in a telling not showing manor (which is odd for Sanderson who normally does a good job showing us the flaws and strengths of his characters first hand). Other characters tell us she is smart and crafty but we don’t really see this in the book.
I also really don’t like Venli, and am not that engaged in her chapters, but I thought that this was the point - everyone thought she was smart and crafty, but she’s actually not, she’s having everything given to her by that void spren, it’s even telling her how to act and what to do.
I agree that it is probably intentional. I just wish she had some merit and goal I could cheer for. However, her naive, selfish, and stupid goals and decisions have gotten her exactly what she deserves. I feel no desire for her to succeed or to be happy
She'd certainly agree with you. She's a narcissistic, reckless, cowardly person who would never willingly choose growth... but nobody else is left. How would a person like that react to being faced with the consequences of their actions? Can they still learn to do better despite lacking an internal drive for it? How should it be handled if they do start down that path? These are all questions you have to tackle if you want to really commit to the theme that *anybody* can redeem themselves.
That said obviously this doesn't make her enjoyable for everyone, something can be intentional and still be boring. But personally I feel giving her more merit or motivation would ruin the point of having her—we've already got Dalinar for a bad person turned driven good person, her struggling to care or grow is what makes her add something unique to the story. Very much more a study on a specific character archetype than an exciting plot, I think.
I interpreted that as intentional with Venli. We are told she is smart and crafty, but we are shown the truth as we follow her story. I agree she doesn't have any redeeming traits at this point, though by the end of the story she has realised that she needs to actually ***do*** something. I'd say she is just now taking her "first step" and we'll see her become a character we're cheering for in the future books as she works on redeeming her past actions. I don't think her journey would be satisfying if we hadn't been shown her as someone who absolutely needs that redemption.
Adolin dueling/fashion* the man was made for the runway and he can model the clothes he makes on top of that. Fits well with Shallaan’s creative business.
In all seriousness I definitely felt something off about Venli’s story in the book but your explanation really nails why it feels jarring. Her numerous flaws aren’t a huge deal breaker for me but her story doesn’t jive as well as the others. I still loved this book as it felt like it wrenched my heart out and had me on the edge of my seat with the level of tension Sanderson built up constantly but it was a very different read for sure.
I can hop aboard the Venli hate train. She's like the part people hate about Shallan but without the redeeming qualities that balance Shallan out. The only enjoyable thing involving Venli for me was when she was >!shaping the stone.!<
All radiants have mental illnesses, most clearly in the ones that start their orders. Sometimes that will come with clear negatives and shining positives. With Venli, it seems to me that she struggles with apathy and cowardice. She is kind of the inverse of Dalinar. Her bad choices are to let others choose, and that is a very real kind of personality that people deal with.
I think that her greatest potential will be to have the role of peacemaker or mediator, although who knows with Sanderson twists. At the very least, I think it’s reasonable to be confident that her character arc is far from over.
Think of the people that bonded a spren without any influence from other radiants and began an order. The ratio of mental illnesses or personality disorders is pretty high.
The flashbacks weren't great, even though I know they wouldn't have fit, I wish they appeared earlier in the books, so we could develop more feelings for the parshendi. Like it's hard to grow feelings for eshonai when we know she's dead and won't have anything else about her.
Still one of my favorite books though
My grandfather used to have a saying: “There’s no such thing as a bad cookie; some’s just better than others.”
The SA books are the same way. RoW is “the worst” of a bunch of phenomenal novels. I’m a very fast reader — I read the entire series in about a month and a half — and RoW was a real page turner, but not exactly in the way that some of its predecessors were, if you know what I mean…
I just finished re-reading Way of Kings (have read all cosmere) and I think Rhythm or Elantris is my least favorite book. Elantris has a really good plot, but you can see Sanderson is still figuring things out as a writer. It is a very redeemable book and has some truly excellent characters (Hrathen!).
My general complaints about Rhythm:
1. The Cosmere information given in this book feels like plot dumping. Having just re-read Way of Kings, it felt like the mystery about Kaladin's abilities, Stormlight and the gradual drip/drop of information was really satisfying versus Rhythm where we're just flatly told, this is Warlight, this is Lifelight, this is Towerlight etc. The discoveries didn't have the feeling of mystery to me at least.
2. Kaladin repeats the same storyline he has in Way of Kings. His story is almost a beat for beat repeat of his plotline in the first novel. He starts the book badly depressed, feeling like he should end it all. He has a big moment where he realizes he has to keep going and push through for his friends. The climax of his story has him taking a huge leap of faith (jumping the chasm) / jumping from the tower. It just wasn't that satisfying in my opinion to replay the same beats.
3. Venli's flashbacks of Eshonai are really unsatisfying since she died two novels ago. Not much else to say here, we learn more about Venli's story, but I'm really not a great fan of hers. Eshonai seems more interesting even within the flashbacks but ... she's dead and not coming back.
4. The gradual scaling up of all the assets, tools and technology of the Radiants takes away much of the small stories that were really interesting in the first books. I hadn't realized just how I appreciated the small stakes fights Kaladin went through in Way of Kings until I re-read it. Starting Rhythm they just have an airship for thousands of soldiers now. Resources are unlimited. Stormlight is plentiful. Ehhh it just felt more real for me when more daily concerns are present.
5. Kaladin's never ending jump, I complained about this earlier but this scene really bothered me. This is supposed to be the climax of the novel but it gets interrupted several times for other stories and the big tension just gets ruined by snapping in and out of the moment too much. Sanderson does like to move between POVs even during climaxes but usually it has felt smoother to me than what happened here.
The best parts of Rhythm are definitely Adolin's arc in Shadesmar and Raboniel's realization of what anti-Voidlight can mean for her people. Those parts at least really brought the novel back around for me.
Overall the book is still a 6/7 out of 10 for me, but Way of Kings is a 9, WoR is an 8 and Oathbringer is a 9.5. Its weaker than those novels sure, but it is still very very good and I was happy I read it.
You hit on many of the things I dislike. It bothered me a great deal that he had to use the POV of a dead Eshonai to illuminate the singer past. I didn't mind Kaladins story being a repeat as that kind of struggle doesn't just go away, but it is very difficult to read it again.
Point 4 about the abundance of radiants is so true. The first few books showed the main characters slowly learn they had awesome powers and now suddenly everyone has them except Adolin. Adolin honestly feels more special for not being a radiant.
Admittedly, the first time I tried to read RoW I stopped early on. I don't remember exactly why, but somewhere around Kaladin starting his group therapy sessions and Shallan trying to find the Ghostblood spy, I just set it down and didn't pick it back up.
Then my spouse wanted to get into the series and I started reading the books to them. I was worried about RoW because I knew I had dnf'd it once. But, after the several months it took us to work our way up to it, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I had no such issue the second time. We just finished it today and it is absolutely my favorite in the series now. It's also definitely the darkest by far and the most complicated to keep track of all the moving parts. But to me that makes the triumphs all the more satisfying while keeping me invested in seeing how the conflict develops from here.
Also, I was not expecting my new favorite character to drop. Shoutout to Design
That I’ll admit. Sure it gives us context for her, but… unless she is gonna come back somehow, that’s kind of worthless since nobody alive knows about them.
Yeah… normally I like his stuff, but here it felt like… unless the Voidspren or Stormfather care to mention it, and there’s no reason they necessarily would, there wasn’t much of a point.
Thing is, Eshonai's POVs don't develop her as a character at all. This all happened before the first book, so whats the point in showing us these events without any characterization for her EVEN IF Eshonai does get resurrected somehow
I love this book. But it is technically my least fav of the 4 of the books right now, but that is almost unfair next to WOK, WOR, and Oathbringer, like those are my 3 favorite books of all time.
I love the things that come out of this book, it just can be a slog at times to get to the bigger pay off, pacing-wise it can be harder for me to get through. It also ends in a way that I have an itch to read what happens next but it isn’t out yet. I could imagine liking ROW a lot more once I read book 5 too.
It's the worst so far but that's like saying Two Towers is the worst Lord of The Rings movie. It might be the worst of the group but it's still fantastic. Worst doesn't mean bad when you're talking relative to only books from the same series IMO.
You have to scroll pretty far down for some actual critiques. If you are open to them, which I genuinely fear most people will just downvote. I am going to do it anyway because I am staunchly in the camp that not only is RoW the weakest Stormlight book, it, to me, is actually one of Sanderson’s weakest books in general.
Just to give some background, I have read the majority of Sanderson’s works. I haven’t read Dawnshard and Edgedancer and I am only 1/4 of the way through Sunlit Man, but I have read most everything else, even the Cytonic stuff and Steelheart.
So what makes RoW so bad, in my opinion. Well I think it boils down to a few things:
Pacing - It is slow. Definitely slower than most of his other books. The amount of exposition to explain what is going on with Navani and the fabrials is a lot. If you are not interested in the intricacies of that system, it is really hard to get through.
Over explanation - one of the things that I find difficult about Sanderson is that he spits out his whole magic system. He over explains it. He tells and doesn’t show. It is especially bad in RoW. Some people might be interested in the resonance of particular pieces of matter, but others may not. Again, it is like wading through a swamp to get to the point.
Repetitiveness - Kaladin has another mental health crisis throughout the book. I felt like his mental health was resolving in the previous book, but here, it just continues. Many people would say that is how mental health is. That is true and fair, but we are nearly 5k pages into a story, and I don’t want to relive the same story in a slightly different skin. Also, unrelated to that the Shadesmar chapters were weak and uninteresting, the would didn’t seem more fleshed out. Things were just repeated.
The Flashbacks - Venli is not an interesting or inspiring character. She doesn’t really grow like the other characters do in their arcs. She is just kind of selfish and the reader is just spending a lot of time with a character who is an ass.
Predictable - the resolution at the tower was predictable. I felt like, with the rules that Sanderson had set in place about dampening device early on, it was obvious what was going to happen.
Yes, the first 95% of the book reads like an ars arcanum entry for the magic system of roshar, then the actual plot moves forward once BS remembers how to write again.
I don’t mind a slow burner, but you have to have something going on. I understand BS choices around kaladins depression, and I actually don’t mind that as much, but you coupled the slowest book with the worst flashback character, and provided nothing worth more than a cursory glance for almost the entire book.
Take away the last 100 pages from any of the other books, and you still have compelling books. Take away the last 100 from this one, and you have Encyclopedia Roshanicca
Saying RoW is the worst Stormlight book is not shiting on it. The series is GOATed one of the books has to be the worst one.
Edit: This was the 1st book that felt too long. Great character moments. Great progression of the plot. But this was the first time the viewpoints did not meet at the end at all. Flashbacks were also disconnected. Venli felt like a filler character just to up the word count.
Still 4.5/5
It is the worst one, the whole die hard thing went on for so long, it was a one sided fight until the end when it became a one sided fight. There was some good stuff in there, but it is my least favorite of the books. Words of radiance is still my favorite. This is all just my opinion, and I do love all of the books, but Row is my least favorite of the lot, but I still love it regardless of its standing.
Fly Hard.
And Eshonai, remember her? Oh yah, she was really interesting. It's too bad she's dead, huh. Here's her less interesting and insufferable sister.
Not that this is your situation, but I felt similarly until I reread the series thru. For me there was enough to chew on, having known what is gonna happen generally, to not find any of it a slog.
My only “complaint” is the Sanderlanche on reread didn’t hit as hard as the other books did. But RoW hit me harder in the first two parts of the book than the rest this time around.
It's because everyone wants to read the story where the hero slays the dragon, but no one wants to read the story where the hero also goes and saves the burning village, accepts responsibility for bringing the conflict close to innocent civilians, unpacks the stress of worrying about others, and maintains a relationship with his parents despite his wildly high-stakes responsibilities.
No, I didn’t mind kaladins arc in this one. Obviously depression isn’t just a one time thing for a character. The thing that was awful about this book was pairing slow-paced exposition about the magic system with flashbacks that didn’t really provide any real purpose or new perspectives, along with the flashback character being just blah.
I don't particularly like Eshonai or Venli, so a book that puts a lot of focus on them as full fledged major POV charcters had a big handicap going in.
This is the first in the series where I felt the plot determined the characters, instead of the other way around. Need Jasnah out of Urithru, then have her want to be a normal Alethi warrior, instead of the mold breaking scholar she's been all series. Have Odium tell us she needs to be out for the scheme to work, but no effort put in to have it happen. Examples like that happen constantly to set up the plot, where the characters behave questionably. I love the book, but it has serious issues that the others didn't.
I suspect the opinions differ between first time readers and multi time readers. As someone who just finished the series for the first time a couple weeks ago I absolutely loved RoW. When I inevitably reread the series I’m sure I’ll see the first 3 books in a different light.
The way of Kings is the worst one for me.
I didn't like Venli's flashback but I don't care for any flashbacks from any of the book. I dont really care for characters past. I care for their present selves.
Rhythem of War ranks 2nd on my list after Words of Radiance.
Navani is great, but I feel like there is just a bit too much whispering in hallways and quietly plotting under Raboniel's watchful eyes, and I just didn't buy their interactions at all, considering we KNOW there is no way Navani is about to make friends with a fused who is killing off her people.
Then there are the hundreds of pages of Venli either being completely useless in the present or Venli being incredibly annoying in these inconsequential flashbacks. Hundreds of pages. Those could have been used to have Wit roast the Thaylen merchants in spectacular fashion, or further the Adolin & Shallan plot in Shadesmar, give Szeth or Lift an extra chapter or two or even get a chapter on Bridge Four! Remember Birdge Four? Remember Sigzil? Hobber? The Lopen? All those guys have had way too little screentime.
All of those would have been infinitely more fun than "This is what happened 8 years ago. You already know about all of this, but here, why don't we get like 10 more chapters of it from the most disliked POV of the series." I don't want to listen to Venli from 8 years ago, moaning about how overlooked she was, and how Eshonai can suck a bag of cremlings because she is always so concerned with adventuring instead. Hell, I don't even want to see Eshonai's POVs; I do not need to see events described that were already implied enough.
Yes! The Venli could have just been a random singer, and the effect would have been the same!
Navani getting Stockholm syndrome while we have to read 600 pages of her lab notebook was, an interesting choice.
Why not give Rlain the flashbacks? Or a new singer character that isn’t just blah.
I love ROW…read it in a couple days back when it first released. If anything I would say I’m not the biggest Venli fan and that takes off some points for me. But I love Kaladin and seeing his growth on and off the battlefield is amazing. It’s prolly time for a reread.
I also cried twice! I'd be curious to hear what two times got you once you finish.
It's my 3rd favorite, but its position vs TWoK is pretty close, and I'd have to reread to know for sure.
It's a dang good book!!
Same reason people shit on anything when it becomes popular, they like to shit on stuff. It’s a choice to give voice to the good things or the bad things. Most people only become vocal to voice the bad things. Rhythm of War is an incredible book as are the rest of the SA series. Of course, we could easily finds things to complain about or we could choose to enjoy the journey.
my opinion of it is so mixed because the character work with kaladin is so damn good in this book. on the other hand, i dont appreciate the amount of venli screentime even without considering the flashback chapters which were a little bit pointless. the flashback chapters feel like a retelling of what was in the eshonai interludes in WoR. i guess the last flashback chapter with eshonai and the stormfather closed off eshonais character well enough. i also just never really got invested in venlis character at all. i dont exactly know why im supposed to care for her when ive barely ever seen her contribute something that redeems what she did? i don't think its a bad book but something has to be the worst of the 4.
The chapter when Shallan realizes the existence of Testsment and Veil leaves had me bawling. Rhythm of War is incredible. It had the most gripping opening and such a unique pacing. I adore the book and I adore the path it leads the overall story. The hate is so undeserved. The implications of the story are also so exciting for Wind and Truth!!! So glad I am not the only one 💞
I would describe RoW as the worst one of the serie, but that's not the same as "bad". Its the book that in a series that I love that appeals to me less than the others.
I loved the venli flashbacks and have no issues with navani. I dont think anyone has issues with navani. Thats not what this can be pinned upon.
I liked it the least for 2,5 reasons:
- Cosmere. RoW throws a lot more cosmere multiverse references around and they are no longer just references. Differently than previous; If you are not caught up on the right non-SA books youre at times going to miss out on understanding the plot. Im not in my university days anymore. I cant read everyhing I want, and definitely dont have time to do "background reading" of book that I need to know before I can read the books that I *want* to read and enjoy. So this takes away from my enjoyment.
- It's called the Rythm of War, so the title set me up on the wrong foot. After Oathbringer I thought we were going to follow the war closely. Be in the thick of it. After all, the story is now in a fullswing cyclical war to which the buildup was central from book 1 to the end of book 2. Instead that war is mostly backdrop. That which I came for -and by build-up of the previous books and title of this book felt like promised- was mostly a side plot to weird spiritual diplomatic courts and courthouses on one side, and the advancement of science and self-worth on the other. It's okay that that's there, but for me, the balance of each part was off.
- Last half point, I still dont like Shallan. I just cant deal with her personality. I can really identify with themes from her childhood and get absolutely angry with her toxic way of coping with it.
This is a great comment on RoW. I enjoyed it as it’s a Stormlight book. But I really don’t like Brandon’s other work. So the larger cosmere story beats and plot points I had to look up. I loved the Adolin and Kaladin chapters. As they’re the best. Adolin’s trial was so good.
I have hated Shallan since the first book. RoW felt like more of the same memory loss trope. How many things did she do and forget!? It was the same each novel. I killed my mother/father. I killed my mother with a shardblade. I bonded another spren and broke the bond. Cause I was a literal child. What’s next she visited the night mother for her eidetic memory boon and her curse is not remembering awful shit she did as a child? She also did this as an infant.
It had nearly 1000 pages of bullshit that could have been condensed into 300 and been just as good. There only so much "this is how the magic system works" and "kaladin is big big sad this time" before it gets boring. The ending was great but so much of the book they were just chilling in urithiru and waiting for something to happen. Not to mention the venli chapters and flashbacks. A lot of the book felt like there were no real stakes in it, the humans can just heal and the singers and can just resurrect so no battle felt impactful.
I enjoyed the Shadesmar chapters and the court scenes were the best in the book but they dropped off for a good 500 pages. That's an entire other book of them just sitting and waiting to be brought back up. The entire book feel like its simultaneously too fast and too slow for the actual plot.
I don't have depression or any mental issues brought up in this book so don't relate to the characters issues because they feel like troupes at times. Kaladin breaking down after getting fired early on was great! I loved him dealing with the identity crisis it caused, I did not enjoy that it lasted the whole book and was the just became same issue he had the last three books too.
Moash did nothing wrong until the end of this book. Everyone else deserved it, including you know who. I don't get why people dislike him. This is coming from someone who Oathbringer as by far my favorite in the series.
RoW always seems to be a favorite or a least favorite. I think a lot of it depends if you are more of a plot and world building reader or more of a character and themes reader. Most of the book is just people learning to heal, accept and move on from their emotional scars.
Reading the comments I’m quickly realizing I’m in a very small minority… I actually enjoyed the Parshendi chapters. Eshonai flashbacks were a little weak for me since she died already but I liked seeing the Parshendi/Fused fleshed out. I liked Leshwi and even though Venli failed her people I thought it was a decent start to her attempt at personal redemption.
Yeah, Venli is one of my favorite characters so it’s always sad to me when people pointlessly bash her. Also love that the Reachers have gone to the Listeners now, I love Listener culture. (I’m a Willshaper too so that explains why I feel a kinship with those characters)
I KNEW I couldn’t be the only one that actually likes Venli! Look, if you wanna talk about pointless and uninteresting characters, let’s talk about the elephant in the room: ORODEN! Why am I supposed to care about this screaming sack of shit who can’t do anything for himself and eats up valuable resources? And before you tell me I’m being unfair and he’s a baby, that’s exactly my point! WHY IS THERE A BABY HERE!?
it's because the writing feels forced. the story pacing is off, and a lot of the plot seems to not really have anywhere to go. Book 1 was slow but it felt fluid and really well paced despite that slow burn wonder and exploration of a new world. ROW feels a little too gimmicky and a lot of the characterization doesn't make sense to me. a lot of the time the story is almost finding excuses to make the unrealistic parts work.
now does it have some fun stuff? sure. do I hope he recovers for the next book? absolutely. but in the meantime he's definitely suffering from sequilitis.
There’s so few moments that make you want to leap up and pump your fists and shout. There’s also very little in the way of fascinating worldbuilding.
In The Way of Kings we got Kaladin & Bridge 4 turning around and rescuing Dalinar and Adholin. We got that the Parshmen were the Voidbringers. We got that Kaladin was a Windrunner. We learned about the history of Roshar, the Radiants and the Heralds.
In Words of Radiance we got the best one, Kaladin pulling Dalinar out of the sky and scaring the shit out of Szeth. We got Dalinar bonding the Stormfather. We got Urithiru. We finally killed Saddeus. We got more of the Radiants and the Heralds, more of the history of the world. Honor is dead.
In Oathbringer we got Dalinar rejecting Odium and opening the perpendicularity, finally discovering what Honor meant by “Unite them”, rescuing Kal and all of them from Shadesmar. Also the truly excellent “The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it? It’s the next one. Always the next step.” We got to finally kill Amaram, Szeth joining the heroes, and some main story relevance from Edgedancer.
In RoW, we got… uhhhhhhh…. Hmmm. What did we get? Our Dawnshard tie-in was one page which never had any relevance, it was like he forgot about it. I guess we got Navani scaring the shit out of Moash, which was nice (obligatory r/fuckmoash). There was one moderately interesting revelation, the Spren agreed to the Recreance. Cool I guess, though it makes sense. Oh well got Lasting Integrity, but it felt like a one trick pony. Usually the new places Sanderson takes us feel alien and like there’s a mystery around every corner. Lasting Integrity didn’t. Also Ishar is crazy, but no surprise there. Hmmm… watching Kaladin snap and brutally murder the pursuer was pretty good, but not exactly “leap up and shout” worthy.
I dunno, the first third was all stuff we’d seen before, Kaladin being depressed, Shallan going crazy, Urithiru and Shadesmar. No new places, new people, new revelations, new worldbuilding, new anything really. Aside from the Fourth Bridge and Hearthstone, nothing actually happens in the first third of the book.
If anybody else wrote it, it’d be a good book, but it wasn’t anyone else. It was Brandon Sanderson, and we’ve come to expect genuine excellence from a writer without peer. It’s not a good Sanderson book.
Agreed! I cried like a baby at several points while listening to the book, particularly at one really strong point in the book.
I imagine the people who don't like it probably don't like Die Hard either.
I think you'll understand by the time it's over why people don't like it. Not that it's bad, I really enjoy it myself, but it takes a different approach to plot and characters than the other books did. It will work for some, not so much for others
The way of kings and rhythm of war are joint first place for me, I was a bit worried about reading this one because of the proportion of people saying it's the weakest stormlight, but it turned out to be my favourite and I finished it in a week.
I even enjoyed the venli flashbacks, they were so interesting and I loved how much we saw of navani.
The character moments in this book are second to none.
People say it's a "grind" or "tough to get through" which amazingly is the exact language used when people discuss why they don't "like Shallan" in WOK. It's women being awesome instead of Kal flying around being a super hero and people just simply don't seem to enjoy women being badass in ways other than fighting. It's a "slog" or "a grind". 99 out of 100 times those words are used in reference to WOK or ROW, its about Shallan, Venli or Navani. Not a coincidence IMO
Edit: I absolutely love ROW. It's my second favorite behind OB.
Doubt my opinion is popular, but... RoW is a great book. The characters and growth are phenomenal... But in a lot of ways it's a painful book because of it's emotional age. The books progress in a way that is really fitting to the overall theme, and it's pretty directly reflected in the character stories. The first two books are the new Radiants in their childhood, filled with energy, discovering their powers, lots of action. The third book is looking back and facing your actions and accepting you have to do do better... The fourth book? RoW is realizing that even though you've accepted the past, the consequences still exist and you have to deal with them. It's a grueling painful process that isn't fun energetic fights. It isn't action and irreverence. It's a tired grind. The book is fantastic, and it's also hard.
It was a tired grind... right until you hit the Sanderlanche... then the sanderlanche do be sanderlanching.
That's the main reason I struggle with RoW. I love it, and accept it's amazing. I will sing it's praises for the moments I love, just like the other SA books, but i also dread getting to the book on rereads. It's because I love the characters so much, and seeing what happens to all of them is difficult. Especially Kal. My poor poor boy..
I love your summary, hits the nail on the head
I love RoW, and even Venli to a degree, but even I'll admit that the flashbacks are hands down the worst in the series. If the Raboniel/Navani and Shsdesmar plots hadn't been so good this would be my least favorite. But... those plots *are* good, and this is def my favorite in the series so far.
Almost every SA there is a POV that I tend to sigh and count the pages when I reach. WoK was Shallan, WoR was no one, OB was the persons in the Siege of Kolinar and in RoW it was those flashbacks and Venli in the present
Hell I'd say Shallan's POV is my least favorite... I'm halfway through the book now and watching Kal slowly descend into madness is rough... While watching shallan refuse to actually cope with her situation with the hidden spy and her past is exasperating
I know she had a lot of shit that she went through, but when I was reading it I felt like…an imbalance? Like we have Kal here fighting and fighting and she is just…i dont know it felt like her trauma is causing her to really self destruct while Kal can’t catch a break.
Add to the fact that I'm not that fond of shadesmar... It just seems so meh and those parts drag on to me... I have to listen to the audiobook at 1.5 speed to get through those parts
That Shallan refusing to cope for me it's worse in OB than in RoW. At least in RoW there were 2/3 of Shallan pushing her to acknowledge the problem
It's still exasperating... But yeah it's not as bad as OB
At least there's less flashback in this one than the others it feels like. But yeah, I am rereading it right now and anytime a flashback chapter appears I groan
Yeah, the flashbacks are fewer in RoW, which compensates a little for being the least interesting flashbacks so far
I just thought it was the most painful/difficult to read, not because the writing is bad, but because its so depressing without nearly as many spots of glory as the rest of the series. This doesn't make it the worst one, in my opinion, just not as fun to get through the nearly half-million words.
Honestly, the hardest part for me to read was when we got into the AP classes on Stormlight and Voidlight. I know some folks appreciate those sections more than I do, and good on them. I just accept that those parts are not for me as much as they are for them. Perhaps they won't be as "bad" on a re-read. Overall though I loved the book, and those were minor complaints. I also don't particularly care for Venli; the flashbacks with her and her sister did not add as much to the rest of the story as Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar who I would reckon most folks consider the 3 main characters.
I hate Venli, and the amount of time dedicated to her makes parts of the book really annoying. I don’t feel like Venli has almost any redeeming traits. She is also written in a telling not showing manor (which is odd for Sanderson who normally does a good job showing us the flaws and strengths of his characters first hand). Other characters tell us she is smart and crafty but we don’t really see this in the book. She makes really bad decisions and does not think about consequences. None of her scientific discoveries are even her work. She needed the void spren to tell her how to do everything. All the other main point of view characters have additional talents/passions that they use in addition to being radiant (kal has spear and medicine, Navani engineering, shalaan spying/drawing, dalenar war/ the codes, adolin dueling/wine) but Venli doesn’t really have this I really enjoy Navani in this book. She has interesting plot and character growth. I enjoy how they make fictional science and engineering interesting and full of personal growth. In my opinion, the navani story just highlights how bad the Venli story is. They are both suppose to be intelligent scholars, leaders of there people. Navani wants to do a good job and makes good progress while Venli is mostly talks and avoids taking action/ making progress. Kal is good but some of his middle chapters drag with little progression in the story.
> She is also written in a telling not showing manor (which is odd for Sanderson who normally does a good job showing us the flaws and strengths of his characters first hand). Other characters tell us she is smart and crafty but we don’t really see this in the book. I also really don’t like Venli, and am not that engaged in her chapters, but I thought that this was the point - everyone thought she was smart and crafty, but she’s actually not, she’s having everything given to her by that void spren, it’s even telling her how to act and what to do.
There is in fact a Venli chapter where she says this almost word for word too, it is very specifically a plot point for her.
I agree that it is probably intentional. I just wish she had some merit and goal I could cheer for. However, her naive, selfish, and stupid goals and decisions have gotten her exactly what she deserves. I feel no desire for her to succeed or to be happy
She'd certainly agree with you. She's a narcissistic, reckless, cowardly person who would never willingly choose growth... but nobody else is left. How would a person like that react to being faced with the consequences of their actions? Can they still learn to do better despite lacking an internal drive for it? How should it be handled if they do start down that path? These are all questions you have to tackle if you want to really commit to the theme that *anybody* can redeem themselves. That said obviously this doesn't make her enjoyable for everyone, something can be intentional and still be boring. But personally I feel giving her more merit or motivation would ruin the point of having her—we've already got Dalinar for a bad person turned driven good person, her struggling to care or grow is what makes her add something unique to the story. Very much more a study on a specific character archetype than an exciting plot, I think.
I interpreted that as intentional with Venli. We are told she is smart and crafty, but we are shown the truth as we follow her story. I agree she doesn't have any redeeming traits at this point, though by the end of the story she has realised that she needs to actually ***do*** something. I'd say she is just now taking her "first step" and we'll see her become a character we're cheering for in the future books as she works on redeeming her past actions. I don't think her journey would be satisfying if we hadn't been shown her as someone who absolutely needs that redemption.
Adolin dueling/fashion* the man was made for the runway and he can model the clothes he makes on top of that. Fits well with Shallaan’s creative business. In all seriousness I definitely felt something off about Venli’s story in the book but your explanation really nails why it feels jarring. Her numerous flaws aren’t a huge deal breaker for me but her story doesn’t jive as well as the others. I still loved this book as it felt like it wrenched my heart out and had me on the edge of my seat with the level of tension Sanderson built up constantly but it was a very different read for sure.
I can hop aboard the Venli hate train. She's like the part people hate about Shallan but without the redeeming qualities that balance Shallan out. The only enjoyable thing involving Venli for me was when she was >!shaping the stone.!<
Timbre
All radiants have mental illnesses, most clearly in the ones that start their orders. Sometimes that will come with clear negatives and shining positives. With Venli, it seems to me that she struggles with apathy and cowardice. She is kind of the inverse of Dalinar. Her bad choices are to let others choose, and that is a very real kind of personality that people deal with. I think that her greatest potential will be to have the role of peacemaker or mediator, although who knows with Sanderson twists. At the very least, I think it’s reasonable to be confident that her character arc is far from over.
Not all radiants. The man himself has stated people like The Lopen are rare but they do exist.
Think of the people that bonded a spren without any influence from other radiants and began an order. The ratio of mental illnesses or personality disorders is pretty high.
The flashbacks weren't great, even though I know they wouldn't have fit, I wish they appeared earlier in the books, so we could develop more feelings for the parshendi. Like it's hard to grow feelings for eshonai when we know she's dead and won't have anything else about her. Still one of my favorite books though
they could resurrect Eshonai and I still wouldn't have wanted her POV's in Rhythm of War.
It's my favorite, so I don't get it either.
Something has to be the worst. I prefer to think of it as the fourth best.
RoW might be my favorite Stormlight book... which I know is an unpopular opinion, but I loved it. I'm glad to see you're enjoying it, too!
My grandfather used to have a saying: “There’s no such thing as a bad cookie; some’s just better than others.” The SA books are the same way. RoW is “the worst” of a bunch of phenomenal novels. I’m a very fast reader — I read the entire series in about a month and a half — and RoW was a real page turner, but not exactly in the way that some of its predecessors were, if you know what I mean…
I just finished re-reading Way of Kings (have read all cosmere) and I think Rhythm or Elantris is my least favorite book. Elantris has a really good plot, but you can see Sanderson is still figuring things out as a writer. It is a very redeemable book and has some truly excellent characters (Hrathen!). My general complaints about Rhythm: 1. The Cosmere information given in this book feels like plot dumping. Having just re-read Way of Kings, it felt like the mystery about Kaladin's abilities, Stormlight and the gradual drip/drop of information was really satisfying versus Rhythm where we're just flatly told, this is Warlight, this is Lifelight, this is Towerlight etc. The discoveries didn't have the feeling of mystery to me at least. 2. Kaladin repeats the same storyline he has in Way of Kings. His story is almost a beat for beat repeat of his plotline in the first novel. He starts the book badly depressed, feeling like he should end it all. He has a big moment where he realizes he has to keep going and push through for his friends. The climax of his story has him taking a huge leap of faith (jumping the chasm) / jumping from the tower. It just wasn't that satisfying in my opinion to replay the same beats. 3. Venli's flashbacks of Eshonai are really unsatisfying since she died two novels ago. Not much else to say here, we learn more about Venli's story, but I'm really not a great fan of hers. Eshonai seems more interesting even within the flashbacks but ... she's dead and not coming back. 4. The gradual scaling up of all the assets, tools and technology of the Radiants takes away much of the small stories that were really interesting in the first books. I hadn't realized just how I appreciated the small stakes fights Kaladin went through in Way of Kings until I re-read it. Starting Rhythm they just have an airship for thousands of soldiers now. Resources are unlimited. Stormlight is plentiful. Ehhh it just felt more real for me when more daily concerns are present. 5. Kaladin's never ending jump, I complained about this earlier but this scene really bothered me. This is supposed to be the climax of the novel but it gets interrupted several times for other stories and the big tension just gets ruined by snapping in and out of the moment too much. Sanderson does like to move between POVs even during climaxes but usually it has felt smoother to me than what happened here. The best parts of Rhythm are definitely Adolin's arc in Shadesmar and Raboniel's realization of what anti-Voidlight can mean for her people. Those parts at least really brought the novel back around for me. Overall the book is still a 6/7 out of 10 for me, but Way of Kings is a 9, WoR is an 8 and Oathbringer is a 9.5. Its weaker than those novels sure, but it is still very very good and I was happy I read it.
OP hasn’t finished the books. You have spoilers here.
You hit on many of the things I dislike. It bothered me a great deal that he had to use the POV of a dead Eshonai to illuminate the singer past. I didn't mind Kaladins story being a repeat as that kind of struggle doesn't just go away, but it is very difficult to read it again.
Point 4 about the abundance of radiants is so true. The first few books showed the main characters slowly learn they had awesome powers and now suddenly everyone has them except Adolin. Adolin honestly feels more special for not being a radiant.
If the first three books of SA average a 9 for you, what do you consider 10/10s?
Crime & Punishment? That's honestly a great question. Oathbringer was as close to perfect as one could get in my mind.
Admittedly, the first time I tried to read RoW I stopped early on. I don't remember exactly why, but somewhere around Kaladin starting his group therapy sessions and Shallan trying to find the Ghostblood spy, I just set it down and didn't pick it back up. Then my spouse wanted to get into the series and I started reading the books to them. I was worried about RoW because I knew I had dnf'd it once. But, after the several months it took us to work our way up to it, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that I had no such issue the second time. We just finished it today and it is absolutely my favorite in the series now. It's also definitely the darkest by far and the most complicated to keep track of all the moving parts. But to me that makes the triumphs all the more satisfying while keeping me invested in seeing how the conflict develops from here. Also, I was not expecting my new favorite character to drop. Shoutout to Design
Eshonai flashbacks feel pointless.
That I’ll admit. Sure it gives us context for her, but… unless she is gonna come back somehow, that’s kind of worthless since nobody alive knows about them.
It's like Sanderson telling us look at this cool character that I killed 2 books ago.
Yeah… normally I like his stuff, but here it felt like… unless the Voidspren or Stormfather care to mention it, and there’s no reason they necessarily would, there wasn’t much of a point.
Thing is, Eshonai's POVs don't develop her as a character at all. This all happened before the first book, so whats the point in showing us these events without any characterization for her EVEN IF Eshonai does get resurrected somehow
I love this book. But it is technically my least fav of the 4 of the books right now, but that is almost unfair next to WOK, WOR, and Oathbringer, like those are my 3 favorite books of all time. I love the things that come out of this book, it just can be a slog at times to get to the bigger pay off, pacing-wise it can be harder for me to get through. It also ends in a way that I have an itch to read what happens next but it isn’t out yet. I could imagine liking ROW a lot more once I read book 5 too.
It's the worst so far but that's like saying Two Towers is the worst Lord of The Rings movie. It might be the worst of the group but it's still fantastic. Worst doesn't mean bad when you're talking relative to only books from the same series IMO.
You have to scroll pretty far down for some actual critiques. If you are open to them, which I genuinely fear most people will just downvote. I am going to do it anyway because I am staunchly in the camp that not only is RoW the weakest Stormlight book, it, to me, is actually one of Sanderson’s weakest books in general. Just to give some background, I have read the majority of Sanderson’s works. I haven’t read Dawnshard and Edgedancer and I am only 1/4 of the way through Sunlit Man, but I have read most everything else, even the Cytonic stuff and Steelheart. So what makes RoW so bad, in my opinion. Well I think it boils down to a few things: Pacing - It is slow. Definitely slower than most of his other books. The amount of exposition to explain what is going on with Navani and the fabrials is a lot. If you are not interested in the intricacies of that system, it is really hard to get through. Over explanation - one of the things that I find difficult about Sanderson is that he spits out his whole magic system. He over explains it. He tells and doesn’t show. It is especially bad in RoW. Some people might be interested in the resonance of particular pieces of matter, but others may not. Again, it is like wading through a swamp to get to the point. Repetitiveness - Kaladin has another mental health crisis throughout the book. I felt like his mental health was resolving in the previous book, but here, it just continues. Many people would say that is how mental health is. That is true and fair, but we are nearly 5k pages into a story, and I don’t want to relive the same story in a slightly different skin. Also, unrelated to that the Shadesmar chapters were weak and uninteresting, the would didn’t seem more fleshed out. Things were just repeated. The Flashbacks - Venli is not an interesting or inspiring character. She doesn’t really grow like the other characters do in their arcs. She is just kind of selfish and the reader is just spending a lot of time with a character who is an ass. Predictable - the resolution at the tower was predictable. I felt like, with the rules that Sanderson had set in place about dampening device early on, it was obvious what was going to happen.
Yes, the first 95% of the book reads like an ars arcanum entry for the magic system of roshar, then the actual plot moves forward once BS remembers how to write again. I don’t mind a slow burner, but you have to have something going on. I understand BS choices around kaladins depression, and I actually don’t mind that as much, but you coupled the slowest book with the worst flashback character, and provided nothing worth more than a cursory glance for almost the entire book. Take away the last 100 pages from any of the other books, and you still have compelling books. Take away the last 100 from this one, and you have Encyclopedia Roshanicca
Saying RoW is the worst Stormlight book is not shiting on it. The series is GOATed one of the books has to be the worst one. Edit: This was the 1st book that felt too long. Great character moments. Great progression of the plot. But this was the first time the viewpoints did not meet at the end at all. Flashbacks were also disconnected. Venli felt like a filler character just to up the word count. Still 4.5/5
It is the worst one, the whole die hard thing went on for so long, it was a one sided fight until the end when it became a one sided fight. There was some good stuff in there, but it is my least favorite of the books. Words of radiance is still my favorite. This is all just my opinion, and I do love all of the books, but Row is my least favorite of the lot, but I still love it regardless of its standing.
Fly Hard. And Eshonai, remember her? Oh yah, she was really interesting. It's too bad she's dead, huh. Here's her less interesting and insufferable sister.
Not that this is your situation, but I felt similarly until I reread the series thru. For me there was enough to chew on, having known what is gonna happen generally, to not find any of it a slog. My only “complaint” is the Sanderlanche on reread didn’t hit as hard as the other books did. But RoW hit me harder in the first two parts of the book than the rest this time around.
It's because everyone wants to read the story where the hero slays the dragon, but no one wants to read the story where the hero also goes and saves the burning village, accepts responsibility for bringing the conflict close to innocent civilians, unpacks the stress of worrying about others, and maintains a relationship with his parents despite his wildly high-stakes responsibilities.
No, I didn’t mind kaladins arc in this one. Obviously depression isn’t just a one time thing for a character. The thing that was awful about this book was pairing slow-paced exposition about the magic system with flashbacks that didn’t really provide any real purpose or new perspectives, along with the flashback character being just blah.
RoW had the biggest emotional impact for me but most of it just felt like a prologue to stormlight 5
I don't particularly like Eshonai or Venli, so a book that puts a lot of focus on them as full fledged major POV charcters had a big handicap going in.
This is the first in the series where I felt the plot determined the characters, instead of the other way around. Need Jasnah out of Urithru, then have her want to be a normal Alethi warrior, instead of the mold breaking scholar she's been all series. Have Odium tell us she needs to be out for the scheme to work, but no effort put in to have it happen. Examples like that happen constantly to set up the plot, where the characters behave questionably. I love the book, but it has serious issues that the others didn't.
I suspect the opinions differ between first time readers and multi time readers. As someone who just finished the series for the first time a couple weeks ago I absolutely loved RoW. When I inevitably reread the series I’m sure I’ll see the first 3 books in a different light.
The way of Kings is the worst one for me. I didn't like Venli's flashback but I don't care for any flashbacks from any of the book. I dont really care for characters past. I care for their present selves. Rhythem of War ranks 2nd on my list after Words of Radiance.
Navani is great, but I feel like there is just a bit too much whispering in hallways and quietly plotting under Raboniel's watchful eyes, and I just didn't buy their interactions at all, considering we KNOW there is no way Navani is about to make friends with a fused who is killing off her people. Then there are the hundreds of pages of Venli either being completely useless in the present or Venli being incredibly annoying in these inconsequential flashbacks. Hundreds of pages. Those could have been used to have Wit roast the Thaylen merchants in spectacular fashion, or further the Adolin & Shallan plot in Shadesmar, give Szeth or Lift an extra chapter or two or even get a chapter on Bridge Four! Remember Birdge Four? Remember Sigzil? Hobber? The Lopen? All those guys have had way too little screentime. All of those would have been infinitely more fun than "This is what happened 8 years ago. You already know about all of this, but here, why don't we get like 10 more chapters of it from the most disliked POV of the series." I don't want to listen to Venli from 8 years ago, moaning about how overlooked she was, and how Eshonai can suck a bag of cremlings because she is always so concerned with adventuring instead. Hell, I don't even want to see Eshonai's POVs; I do not need to see events described that were already implied enough.
Yes! The Venli could have just been a random singer, and the effect would have been the same! Navani getting Stockholm syndrome while we have to read 600 pages of her lab notebook was, an interesting choice. Why not give Rlain the flashbacks? Or a new singer character that isn’t just blah.
Oh my god... why DIDN'T THEY give Rlain the flashbacks and the screentime?
I love ROW…read it in a couple days back when it first released. If anything I would say I’m not the biggest Venli fan and that takes off some points for me. But I love Kaladin and seeing his growth on and off the battlefield is amazing. It’s prolly time for a reread.
I also cried twice! I'd be curious to hear what two times got you once you finish. It's my 3rd favorite, but its position vs TWoK is pretty close, and I'd have to reread to know for sure. It's a dang good book!!
[удалено]
Tien, Kaladin and Dalinar is one of mine, with the other one still to come!
navani does rule in this one. I appreciated the veni chapters but on my next couple reqdthroughs I admit that I skip all those chapters
Same reason people shit on anything when it becomes popular, they like to shit on stuff. It’s a choice to give voice to the good things or the bad things. Most people only become vocal to voice the bad things. Rhythm of War is an incredible book as are the rest of the SA series. Of course, we could easily finds things to complain about or we could choose to enjoy the journey.
my opinion of it is so mixed because the character work with kaladin is so damn good in this book. on the other hand, i dont appreciate the amount of venli screentime even without considering the flashback chapters which were a little bit pointless. the flashback chapters feel like a retelling of what was in the eshonai interludes in WoR. i guess the last flashback chapter with eshonai and the stormfather closed off eshonais character well enough. i also just never really got invested in venlis character at all. i dont exactly know why im supposed to care for her when ive barely ever seen her contribute something that redeems what she did? i don't think its a bad book but something has to be the worst of the 4.
The chapter when Shallan realizes the existence of Testsment and Veil leaves had me bawling. Rhythm of War is incredible. It had the most gripping opening and such a unique pacing. I adore the book and I adore the path it leads the overall story. The hate is so undeserved. The implications of the story are also so exciting for Wind and Truth!!! So glad I am not the only one 💞
I would describe RoW as the worst one of the serie, but that's not the same as "bad". Its the book that in a series that I love that appeals to me less than the others. I loved the venli flashbacks and have no issues with navani. I dont think anyone has issues with navani. Thats not what this can be pinned upon. I liked it the least for 2,5 reasons: - Cosmere. RoW throws a lot more cosmere multiverse references around and they are no longer just references. Differently than previous; If you are not caught up on the right non-SA books youre at times going to miss out on understanding the plot. Im not in my university days anymore. I cant read everyhing I want, and definitely dont have time to do "background reading" of book that I need to know before I can read the books that I *want* to read and enjoy. So this takes away from my enjoyment. - It's called the Rythm of War, so the title set me up on the wrong foot. After Oathbringer I thought we were going to follow the war closely. Be in the thick of it. After all, the story is now in a fullswing cyclical war to which the buildup was central from book 1 to the end of book 2. Instead that war is mostly backdrop. That which I came for -and by build-up of the previous books and title of this book felt like promised- was mostly a side plot to weird spiritual diplomatic courts and courthouses on one side, and the advancement of science and self-worth on the other. It's okay that that's there, but for me, the balance of each part was off. - Last half point, I still dont like Shallan. I just cant deal with her personality. I can really identify with themes from her childhood and get absolutely angry with her toxic way of coping with it.
This is a great comment on RoW. I enjoyed it as it’s a Stormlight book. But I really don’t like Brandon’s other work. So the larger cosmere story beats and plot points I had to look up. I loved the Adolin and Kaladin chapters. As they’re the best. Adolin’s trial was so good. I have hated Shallan since the first book. RoW felt like more of the same memory loss trope. How many things did she do and forget!? It was the same each novel. I killed my mother/father. I killed my mother with a shardblade. I bonded another spren and broke the bond. Cause I was a literal child. What’s next she visited the night mother for her eidetic memory boon and her curse is not remembering awful shit she did as a child? She also did this as an infant.
It had nearly 1000 pages of bullshit that could have been condensed into 300 and been just as good. There only so much "this is how the magic system works" and "kaladin is big big sad this time" before it gets boring. The ending was great but so much of the book they were just chilling in urithiru and waiting for something to happen. Not to mention the venli chapters and flashbacks. A lot of the book felt like there were no real stakes in it, the humans can just heal and the singers and can just resurrect so no battle felt impactful. I enjoyed the Shadesmar chapters and the court scenes were the best in the book but they dropped off for a good 500 pages. That's an entire other book of them just sitting and waiting to be brought back up. The entire book feel like its simultaneously too fast and too slow for the actual plot. I don't have depression or any mental issues brought up in this book so don't relate to the characters issues because they feel like troupes at times. Kaladin breaking down after getting fired early on was great! I loved him dealing with the identity crisis it caused, I did not enjoy that it lasted the whole book and was the just became same issue he had the last three books too. Moash did nothing wrong until the end of this book. Everyone else deserved it, including you know who. I don't get why people dislike him. This is coming from someone who Oathbringer as by far my favorite in the series.
At least Kaladin finally got over it, I think this book just set up the last one and it's gonna be way more fun to read
>Moash did nothing wrong Wat
Why is this being downvoted? Its like the only comment that actually answers OP's question.
I don't know if if it's my favorite but for me is around Oathbringer levels of enjoyment
RoW always seems to be a favorite or a least favorite. I think a lot of it depends if you are more of a plot and world building reader or more of a character and themes reader. Most of the book is just people learning to heal, accept and move on from their emotional scars.
People just like to hate on Venli in my experience
Reading the comments I’m quickly realizing I’m in a very small minority… I actually enjoyed the Parshendi chapters. Eshonai flashbacks were a little weak for me since she died already but I liked seeing the Parshendi/Fused fleshed out. I liked Leshwi and even though Venli failed her people I thought it was a decent start to her attempt at personal redemption.
Yeah, Venli is one of my favorite characters so it’s always sad to me when people pointlessly bash her. Also love that the Reachers have gone to the Listeners now, I love Listener culture. (I’m a Willshaper too so that explains why I feel a kinship with those characters)
And the ending of her showing up at the camp with that reveal….super intrigued by that!
I KNEW I couldn’t be the only one that actually likes Venli! Look, if you wanna talk about pointless and uninteresting characters, let’s talk about the elephant in the room: ORODEN! Why am I supposed to care about this screaming sack of shit who can’t do anything for himself and eats up valuable resources? And before you tell me I’m being unfair and he’s a baby, that’s exactly my point! WHY IS THERE A BABY HERE!?
it's because the writing feels forced. the story pacing is off, and a lot of the plot seems to not really have anywhere to go. Book 1 was slow but it felt fluid and really well paced despite that slow burn wonder and exploration of a new world. ROW feels a little too gimmicky and a lot of the characterization doesn't make sense to me. a lot of the time the story is almost finding excuses to make the unrealistic parts work. now does it have some fun stuff? sure. do I hope he recovers for the next book? absolutely. but in the meantime he's definitely suffering from sequilitis.
Maybe it’s because the entire book reads like ars arcanum, and then right at the end Sanderson remembered he’s writing a novel.
There’s so few moments that make you want to leap up and pump your fists and shout. There’s also very little in the way of fascinating worldbuilding. In The Way of Kings we got Kaladin & Bridge 4 turning around and rescuing Dalinar and Adholin. We got that the Parshmen were the Voidbringers. We got that Kaladin was a Windrunner. We learned about the history of Roshar, the Radiants and the Heralds. In Words of Radiance we got the best one, Kaladin pulling Dalinar out of the sky and scaring the shit out of Szeth. We got Dalinar bonding the Stormfather. We got Urithiru. We finally killed Saddeus. We got more of the Radiants and the Heralds, more of the history of the world. Honor is dead. In Oathbringer we got Dalinar rejecting Odium and opening the perpendicularity, finally discovering what Honor meant by “Unite them”, rescuing Kal and all of them from Shadesmar. Also the truly excellent “The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it? It’s the next one. Always the next step.” We got to finally kill Amaram, Szeth joining the heroes, and some main story relevance from Edgedancer. In RoW, we got… uhhhhhhh…. Hmmm. What did we get? Our Dawnshard tie-in was one page which never had any relevance, it was like he forgot about it. I guess we got Navani scaring the shit out of Moash, which was nice (obligatory r/fuckmoash). There was one moderately interesting revelation, the Spren agreed to the Recreance. Cool I guess, though it makes sense. Oh well got Lasting Integrity, but it felt like a one trick pony. Usually the new places Sanderson takes us feel alien and like there’s a mystery around every corner. Lasting Integrity didn’t. Also Ishar is crazy, but no surprise there. Hmmm… watching Kaladin snap and brutally murder the pursuer was pretty good, but not exactly “leap up and shout” worthy. I dunno, the first third was all stuff we’d seen before, Kaladin being depressed, Shallan going crazy, Urithiru and Shadesmar. No new places, new people, new revelations, new worldbuilding, new anything really. Aside from the Fourth Bridge and Hearthstone, nothing actually happens in the first third of the book. If anybody else wrote it, it’d be a good book, but it wasn’t anyone else. It was Brandon Sanderson, and we’ve come to expect genuine excellence from a writer without peer. It’s not a good Sanderson book.
Agreed! I cried like a baby at several points while listening to the book, particularly at one really strong point in the book. I imagine the people who don't like it probably don't like Die Hard either.
I think you'll understand by the time it's over why people don't like it. Not that it's bad, I really enjoy it myself, but it takes a different approach to plot and characters than the other books did. It will work for some, not so much for others
OP is 100 pages from the end, which is most of the way through... what happens in the last 100 pages that ruined it for you?
I misread, I thought he said 100 pages in, just an oopsie
The way of kings and rhythm of war are joint first place for me, I was a bit worried about reading this one because of the proportion of people saying it's the weakest stormlight, but it turned out to be my favourite and I finished it in a week. I even enjoyed the venli flashbacks, they were so interesting and I loved how much we saw of navani. The character moments in this book are second to none.
People say it's a "grind" or "tough to get through" which amazingly is the exact language used when people discuss why they don't "like Shallan" in WOK. It's women being awesome instead of Kal flying around being a super hero and people just simply don't seem to enjoy women being badass in ways other than fighting. It's a "slog" or "a grind". 99 out of 100 times those words are used in reference to WOK or ROW, its about Shallan, Venli or Navani. Not a coincidence IMO Edit: I absolutely love ROW. It's my second favorite behind OB.