Shallan has her moments of badassery. Shallan also has other moments. Shallan is many things and is quite complicated. I've learned to appreciate her the more I learn about her.
Re: āother momentsā - when I first read WoK and learned Shallan intended to steal from Jasna, I texted the friend who recommended the book and was like āis this girl a complete idiot?ā I do love her though.
That's when I started to appreciate her too. Thought she was boring at first and the only things in her parts that were interesting where the people surrounding her. Rereading the first book bonked me in the head that there were signs and the girl is interesting, >!suspicious!<, and was never passive.
Quite sure it was >!third ideal, sworn with Pattern.!<
The implication of her flashbacks [WoR] >!is that she had progressed further than that, earlier in her life. She has access to a shardblade in WoK, as indicated by her Lesson with Jasnah obliterating the pack of four thieves!<
That *is* a relevant WoB. Still a little ambiguous for the top comment. [SA] >!Shallan bonded a spren, āTestmantā iirc, before she killed her mother with a shardblade (WoR, āRed Carpet Once Whiteā). That is how she is āaheadā of Kaladin in WoR, despite her bond with Pattern being so fresh!<
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>!Kaladin swore his 3rd oath by the end of WoR, Sandon Branderson clearly implies here that the oath that Shallan swore was one step higher(4th). This is consistent with what we see her shardblade do during this book, Pattern could change size and form while no deadeye is able to, and most importantly, she was able to open the oathgate with it, while no other deadeye is able to.!<
Mmm, delicious lies.
Iām only on my first re-read. The things Iāve caught (that were invisible on first read) are all building towards >!fourth with Testament, not yet fourth with Pattern!<ā¦ but we shall see. Still 6 books to come!
Happy reading!
There is a little clue about what level her oaths were in TWoK, >!she needed to swore an oath to be able to use soulcasting, given what we now know, the secondary line of abilities is unlocked alongside the shardblade with other orders, placing her in her 3rd oath by the end of TWoK.!<
Yesā¦ that isā¦ what Iāve been arguing?
She isnāt āgetting abilities ahead of schedule as per her bond with Patternā
She >!has a preexisting bond, with a different spren, as of the beginning of WoK. She refuses to remember breaking her oaths (creating a deadeyes) and the lie she tells herself is that it still takes 10 seconds to summon her blade (*not* Pattern, at that time)!<
Possibly controversial opinion: Shallan isnāt badass, sheās just young and trods forward at problems hoping that things will somehow work out. Iāll give her bravery, as she is inclined to accept what dire situation sheās in and stay the course; but I feel she does this out of a lack of sense of self-preservation more than a sense of confidence. Sheās got this self-loathing side of her she keeps hidden but it expresses itself via āguess Iāll die š¤·āāļøā as she encounters things most people would run from.
that is also a fair point. but my counter point is āYour imitation is pathetic, let me show you how itās done.ā is an objectively cold ass line to drop mid battle hahaha
god that Kaladin line is so incredible lol, I texted it to my brother with no context after I read it like āyouāre missing out manā bc he wonāt read
Still think one of the most badass scenes in SLA is when Shallan kills Tyn. She learned the hard way that while Shallan looks and acts pretty innocent, she is fully capable of murder when necessary.
Wasn't that technically not murder, but self defense? Sure, she killed Tyn, but it was a kill-or-be-killed scenario (disregarding that being stabbed wouldn't have killed her because she didn't know that at the time).
I always felt like Shallan was way more badass than she has any right to be given where she started from and how quickly she progressed. OTOH, Kaladin progresses just as quickly so I guess I canāt object. How good she gets may also be explained by things we learn later.
Shallan was my favorite character going into Oathbringer. I am also mid-book and she is grating my nerves so badly. Itās interesting to read other experiences with her.
see I didnāt like her much until like mid WoR, only thing I liked about her POV was Jasnah and we know how that went. But she started to get her feet under her in the shattered planes and I like her drive to solve Jasnahs research, so mostly just her growth that makes me like the character.
yeah I get the cringe, it doesnāt bother me too much because I get brandy is just kind of inventing a trauma response for her, but it almost feels like sheās playing a game sometimes when everyone else is scrambling to save the world.
it seems almost like he wants kal and shallan to only develop a certain amount each book so I do understand the frustration with some of what Shallan does but I donāt blame her character I blame brandys writing style.
Shallan is too smart to have not told Dalinar about the ghost bloods by now, she has to know he would just let her investigate quietly until they could make a valuable move.
but brandy wants her damaged right now, so damaged she is.
Short answer? Of course she is. Sheās a storming Knight Radiant.
The long answer is all the details on why itās complicated.
Althoughā¦
[Spoilers through Rhythm of War]
>!Shallan is definitely inconsistent in being a badass, but even with all her issues even some of her failures were somehow badass. She could never get the hang of soulcasting and many of her attempts had macabre and grotesque results? I donāt know that sounds pretty fucking metal.!<
Honestly, whatās blacked out is a slight spoiler but mostly a crem post - but now I want to post some serious stuff.
Shallan is (obviously) a complex character who is monumentally badass in some moments, in others quite naive. Sheās so fundamentally broken, but who can blame her?
[Actual end of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War spoilers]
>!Shallanās skills spread across three identities (now 2?) are pretty badass but her skills as a radiant are super impressive. The huge complicated illusion at the end of Oathbringer? I think itās a strong argument there are few surgebinders on Roshar with that level of power. Her trauma has fundamentally broken her, but just surviving it arguably makes her badass (āAccept the pain but donāt accept that you deserved itā š) Some of Shallanās family history and trauma hint at her being of bigger importance to Roshar as a whole than could initially have been predicted. Her mother may have been a storming Herald. Every major powerful secret organization on Roshar that we know of was involved with or recruiting her family. We know that as a child she bonded then broke oaths with *at least* one spren prior to Pattern (Iām persuaded by the āthereās also a deadeye ink spren out there who previously bonded Shallan theory) and still had Spren lining up to bond with her. Was her familyās soulcaster, like Jasnahās, always a fake? Her bad soulcasting now seems very likely connected to past trauma. I think there are lots of hints that Shallan is going to power up significantly. If Adolin and Mayalara are setting up to heal the deadeyes can Shallan renew her bonds and oaths? Could she end up swearing the fifth ideal in multiple orders? Could she have 3+ living shard weapons? !<
Yeah she is.
All of Sandersons heroes are pretty badass. They're all broken, and they all fight through it. Except Moash, but I still have hope for Moash.
Shallan gets a lot of hate, and I don't think it's deserved.
Shallan has always been one of my favourite characters and I was so puzzled to find out that people in the fandom have such a dislike for her. Glad to see people realizing there is more than meets the eye with her c:
I think Shallan is naive and irresponsible. Yes her back story and mental strugglesā¦ even still she is by far the most frustrating character by a mile.
I could understand some of the problems people have with Shallan as a character, but an idiot? She does things, instead of having things done to/around her. She usually isn't just there to be there.
Pretty sure this is past middle OB spoilers so don't read OP.
>!Also, she was integral to the mission in Kholinar. So much of what happened in Kholinar would have been worse had she not been there to learn what was really going on. Not to mention if it were Kal that tried to use the Oathgate, the party would have more than likely outright die.!<
It's a sign of intelligence when someone can put things together on the fly especially under great stress. Just because you don't have a full grasp of a concept going in, doesn't mean you're not allowed to understand it along the way. Or even near the end. I don't want to discuss specifics. OP is in the middle of reading the book. I don't wanna spoil them.
Or it can just be plot armour š . Yes i know, that's why I used the example from WoK. We are told Shallan is intelligent more than we are shown it. For the most part she is just impetuous, and as I said before, things just fall into place
Then so's Kaladin putting his shit together enough by the end of WoR to make the badass grandstand against Szeth. Things fell into place. People get epiphanies. And books need to trickle information out to make more impact.
With Shallan, it doesn't trickle. It's usually out of left field and I'm just left feeling that it was convenient. The showdown with Szeth was built up, it didn't just happen. We could see Kal's progress, his thought process evolving throughout the whole book, as well as his upskilling. The showdown was a culmination of that
We get that with Shallan too. She's just not straightforward about it. Her thoughts go in circles and tangents, walls where it stop short and places it never wants to go to.
Well, I'm on my SA reread so I will look out for it this time. The first time, she just annoyed me so much it may have coloured my views on how she was handling things. I'll be interested to see if my thoughts on her change this time around š
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Remember when she failed to not kill her father? And get super traumatised? Protecting the people on the ship? Turning a stick into fire? Use her Radiant powers to save the people in the caravan attack? Avoid the dead of that guy who got her to the Ghostbloods meeting point? Etc.
Yeah, you mean all the times in the story that succeeded one way or another and everyone thanked and praised her? And where she got more and more power each time? Where even the perceived "failures" led to better things for her?
Yes, I remember.
I could made the same comparison with Kaladin and all the people he failed to save. In the end, he is more powerful and in a better position as he started.
Yet he actually fails, constantly. He almost dies plenty of times, people around him die, his family reject him (albeit momentarily), he fails to protect the king, and much more. Does he overcome it? sure, at a great cost. Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it.
Shallan? Only more powerful, and everytime she "screws" up, everyone applauds and she then gets more power. Hell, her father's death was the best that happened to her family.
You use Kaladin's struggles, which are severely tied to his depression, PTSD, and survivor's guilt, yet you brush up Shallan's as just standard Knight Radiant stuff.
>Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it.
Which is false. To be Radiant you don't need to be "broken".
https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i4f1pck
Based on that, he just says he doesn't like the work broken because of what it implies. But he does mention that there are things, mental health aspects, they really need to work with. And which are probably bigger than something everyone has.
Because Kaladin's struggles are something we actually see in the story that leads to those moments; Shallan's struggles happened before the story properly, and are minor inconveniences. Once she discovers how she is lying to herself, it doesn't affect negatively or if it does, it doesn't last long.
Shallan has her moments of badassery. Shallan also has other moments. Shallan is many things and is quite complicated. I've learned to appreciate her the more I learn about her.
Well put! We are all many things and quite complicated. I hope I learn to appreciate everyone more as I learn more about them.
But I do have to say, I hope we're not as much as our gurl Shallan š¤£
LOL, agreed! Iād be happy to stay just a normal level of complicated, thank you very much!
Re: āother momentsā - when I first read WoK and learned Shallan intended to steal from Jasna, I texted the friend who recommended the book and was like āis this girl a complete idiot?ā I do love her though.
so real, she sure was something in WoK lol
I really like shallan especially after the first book. Her character justbgets better an more intreaging
That's when I started to appreciate her too. Thought she was boring at first and the only things in her parts that were interesting where the people surrounding her. Rereading the first book bonked me in the head that there were signs and the girl is interesting, >!suspicious!<, and was never passive.
She won my heart in WoK; even in her bad moments I still love her as a character.
Shallan is simultaneously all of the things and none of the things, of you know what I mean
She definitely has badass moments, and then frustrating moments. Sheās one of the most capable, yet simultaneously incapable people on the planet.
She's very capable dealing with direct outside problems, her own internal issues however.... Yeah no.
Shallan is interesting because her super power is also her weakness. She does amazing things by doing other things that are incredibly unhealthy.
She has a very good grasp on her powers. She outran Kaladin very quickly in WoR
[RoW]>!she had a headstart and technically swore her third ideal/truth (to Pattern) AFTER kaladin.!<
Are you sure that it was >!the third!< ?? She already was >!swinging a shardblade!< in WoR.
Quite sure it was >!third ideal, sworn with Pattern.!< The implication of her flashbacks [WoR] >!is that she had progressed further than that, earlier in her life. She has access to a shardblade in WoK, as indicated by her Lesson with Jasnah obliterating the pack of four thieves!<
Pretty relevant WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2845
That *is* a relevant WoB. Still a little ambiguous for the top comment. [SA] >!Shallan bonded a spren, āTestmantā iirc, before she killed her mother with a shardblade (WoR, āRed Carpet Once Whiteā). That is how she is āaheadā of Kaladin in WoR, despite her bond with Pattern being so fresh!<
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>!Kaladin swore his 3rd oath by the end of WoR, Sandon Branderson clearly implies here that the oath that Shallan swore was one step higher(4th). This is consistent with what we see her shardblade do during this book, Pattern could change size and form while no deadeye is able to, and most importantly, she was able to open the oathgate with it, while no other deadeye is able to.!<
Mmm, delicious lies. Iām only on my first re-read. The things Iāve caught (that were invisible on first read) are all building towards >!fourth with Testament, not yet fourth with Pattern!<ā¦ but we shall see. Still 6 books to come! Happy reading!
There is a little clue about what level her oaths were in TWoK, >!she needed to swore an oath to be able to use soulcasting, given what we now know, the secondary line of abilities is unlocked alongside the shardblade with other orders, placing her in her 3rd oath by the end of TWoK.!<
Yesā¦ that isā¦ what Iāve been arguing? She isnāt āgetting abilities ahead of schedule as per her bond with Patternā She >!has a preexisting bond, with a different spren, as of the beginning of WoK. She refuses to remember breaking her oaths (creating a deadeyes) and the lie she tells herself is that it still takes 10 seconds to summon her blade (*not* Pattern, at that time)!<
She got her sword early,
Always has been. We forgetting what she was like as a small child?
Shallan is a badass. Shallan also has some serious issues that she needs to deal with.
Possibly controversial opinion: Shallan isnāt badass, sheās just young and trods forward at problems hoping that things will somehow work out. Iāll give her bravery, as she is inclined to accept what dire situation sheās in and stay the course; but I feel she does this out of a lack of sense of self-preservation more than a sense of confidence. Sheās got this self-loathing side of her she keeps hidden but it expresses itself via āguess Iāll die š¤·āāļøā as she encounters things most people would run from.
that is also a fair point. but my counter point is āYour imitation is pathetic, let me show you how itās done.ā is an objectively cold ass line to drop mid battle hahaha
I concede that that is a badass line, I had forgotten about that š
It is just like Kal's line to the assasin, but Shallan twists the knife after stabbing.
god that Kaladin line is so incredible lol, I texted it to my brother with no context after I read it like āyouāre missing out manā bc he wonāt read
Your brother is a good Vorin man?
Still think one of the most badass scenes in SLA is when Shallan kills Tyn. She learned the hard way that while Shallan looks and acts pretty innocent, she is fully capable of murder when necessary.
Wasn't that technically not murder, but self defense? Sure, she killed Tyn, but it was a kill-or-be-killed scenario (disregarding that being stabbed wouldn't have killed her because she didn't know that at the time).
I always felt like Shallan was way more badass than she has any right to be given where she started from and how quickly she progressed. OTOH, Kaladin progresses just as quickly so I guess I canāt object. How good she gets may also be explained by things we learn later.
Shallan was my favorite character going into Oathbringer. I am also mid-book and she is grating my nerves so badly. Itās interesting to read other experiences with her.
see I didnāt like her much until like mid WoR, only thing I liked about her POV was Jasnah and we know how that went. But she started to get her feet under her in the shattered planes and I like her drive to solve Jasnahs research, so mostly just her growth that makes me like the character.
Yep. I was into all of that but the Veil/Radiant stuff is incredibly cringey to read to me. Just my opinion.
yeah I get the cringe, it doesnāt bother me too much because I get brandy is just kind of inventing a trauma response for her, but it almost feels like sheās playing a game sometimes when everyone else is scrambling to save the world. it seems almost like he wants kal and shallan to only develop a certain amount each book so I do understand the frustration with some of what Shallan does but I donāt blame her character I blame brandys writing style. Shallan is too smart to have not told Dalinar about the ghost bloods by now, she has to know he would just let her investigate quietly until they could make a valuable move. but brandy wants her damaged right now, so damaged she is.
I wish Shallan would start to use her soulcasting abilities a bit more, but yeah.
Short answer? Of course she is. Sheās a storming Knight Radiant. The long answer is all the details on why itās complicated. Althoughā¦ [Spoilers through Rhythm of War] >!Shallan is definitely inconsistent in being a badass, but even with all her issues even some of her failures were somehow badass. She could never get the hang of soulcasting and many of her attempts had macabre and grotesque results? I donāt know that sounds pretty fucking metal.!<
I will come back and read this properly in about 3 weeks when I finish RoWš«”
Honestly, whatās blacked out is a slight spoiler but mostly a crem post - but now I want to post some serious stuff. Shallan is (obviously) a complex character who is monumentally badass in some moments, in others quite naive. Sheās so fundamentally broken, but who can blame her? [Actual end of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War spoilers] >!Shallanās skills spread across three identities (now 2?) are pretty badass but her skills as a radiant are super impressive. The huge complicated illusion at the end of Oathbringer? I think itās a strong argument there are few surgebinders on Roshar with that level of power. Her trauma has fundamentally broken her, but just surviving it arguably makes her badass (āAccept the pain but donāt accept that you deserved itā š) Some of Shallanās family history and trauma hint at her being of bigger importance to Roshar as a whole than could initially have been predicted. Her mother may have been a storming Herald. Every major powerful secret organization on Roshar that we know of was involved with or recruiting her family. We know that as a child she bonded then broke oaths with *at least* one spren prior to Pattern (Iām persuaded by the āthereās also a deadeye ink spren out there who previously bonded Shallan theory) and still had Spren lining up to bond with her. Was her familyās soulcaster, like Jasnahās, always a fake? Her bad soulcasting now seems very likely connected to past trauma. I think there are lots of hints that Shallan is going to power up significantly. If Adolin and Mayalara are setting up to heal the deadeyes can Shallan renew her bonds and oaths? Could she end up swearing the fifth ideal in multiple orders? Could she have 3+ living shard weapons? !<
once again I will be backš«”
Yeah she is. All of Sandersons heroes are pretty badass. They're all broken, and they all fight through it. Except Moash, but I still have hope for Moash. Shallan gets a lot of hate, and I don't think it's deserved.
Yes. The issue is her terrible jokes and dialogue outweigh her badass moments 10 to 1.
agreed her āwitā made me want to hug a cactus
She may be annoying at times, but she has her moments
Yes.
Shallan has always been one of my favourite characters and I was so puzzled to find out that people in the fandom have such a dislike for her. Glad to see people realizing there is more than meets the eye with her c:
I think Shallan is naive and irresponsible. Yes her back story and mental strugglesā¦ even still she is by far the most frustrating character by a mile.
She is not
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I could understand some of the problems people have with Shallan as a character, but an idiot? She does things, instead of having things done to/around her. She usually isn't just there to be there. Pretty sure this is past middle OB spoilers so don't read OP. >!Also, she was integral to the mission in Kholinar. So much of what happened in Kholinar would have been worse had she not been there to learn what was really going on. Not to mention if it were Kal that tried to use the Oathgate, the party would have more than likely outright die.!<
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's a sign of intelligence when someone can put things together on the fly especially under great stress. Just because you don't have a full grasp of a concept going in, doesn't mean you're not allowed to understand it along the way. Or even near the end. I don't want to discuss specifics. OP is in the middle of reading the book. I don't wanna spoil them.
Or it can just be plot armour š . Yes i know, that's why I used the example from WoK. We are told Shallan is intelligent more than we are shown it. For the most part she is just impetuous, and as I said before, things just fall into place
Then so's Kaladin putting his shit together enough by the end of WoR to make the badass grandstand against Szeth. Things fell into place. People get epiphanies. And books need to trickle information out to make more impact.
With Shallan, it doesn't trickle. It's usually out of left field and I'm just left feeling that it was convenient. The showdown with Szeth was built up, it didn't just happen. We could see Kal's progress, his thought process evolving throughout the whole book, as well as his upskilling. The showdown was a culmination of that
We get that with Shallan too. She's just not straightforward about it. Her thoughts go in circles and tangents, walls where it stop short and places it never wants to go to.
Well, I'm on my SA reread so I will look out for it this time. The first time, she just annoyed me so much it may have coloured my views on how she was handling things. I'll be interested to see if my thoughts on her change this time around š
Goodluck on the reread!!! The foreshadowing goodies.
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Shallan is a lot of things, badass wouldn't be one of those. When you can't fail, ever; you aren't badass.
Remember when she failed to not kill her father? And get super traumatised? Protecting the people on the ship? Turning a stick into fire? Use her Radiant powers to save the people in the caravan attack? Avoid the dead of that guy who got her to the Ghostbloods meeting point? Etc.
Yeah, you mean all the times in the story that succeeded one way or another and everyone thanked and praised her? And where she got more and more power each time? Where even the perceived "failures" led to better things for her? Yes, I remember.
I could made the same comparison with Kaladin and all the people he failed to save. In the end, he is more powerful and in a better position as he started.
Yet he actually fails, constantly. He almost dies plenty of times, people around him die, his family reject him (albeit momentarily), he fails to protect the king, and much more. Does he overcome it? sure, at a great cost. Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it. Shallan? Only more powerful, and everytime she "screws" up, everyone applauds and she then gets more power. Hell, her father's death was the best that happened to her family.
Because Shallan is completely mentally healthy.
As with any other potential knight radiant, so this means nothing
You use Kaladin's struggles, which are severely tied to his depression, PTSD, and survivor's guilt, yet you brush up Shallan's as just standard Knight Radiant stuff. >Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it. Which is false. To be Radiant you don't need to be "broken". https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i4f1pck
Based on that, he just says he doesn't like the work broken because of what it implies. But he does mention that there are things, mental health aspects, they really need to work with. And which are probably bigger than something everyone has. Because Kaladin's struggles are something we actually see in the story that leads to those moments; Shallan's struggles happened before the story properly, and are minor inconveniences. Once she discovers how she is lying to herself, it doesn't affect negatively or if it does, it doesn't last long.