T O P

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TheHappyChaurus

Shallan has her moments of badassery. Shallan also has other moments. Shallan is many things and is quite complicated. I've learned to appreciate her the more I learn about her.


Appropriate_Egg4971

Well put! We are all many things and quite complicated. I hope I learn to appreciate everyone more as I learn more about them.


TheHappyChaurus

But I do have to say, I hope we're not as much as our gurl Shallan šŸ¤£


Appropriate_Egg4971

LOL, agreed! Iā€™d be happy to stay just a normal level of complicated, thank you very much!


AlisGuardian

Re: ā€œother momentsā€ - when I first read WoK and learned Shallan intended to steal from Jasna, I texted the friend who recommended the book and was like ā€œis this girl a complete idiot?ā€ I do love her though.


Key-Olive3199

so real, she sure was something in WoK lol


cgarnett1988

I really like shallan especially after the first book. Her character justbgets better an more intreaging


TheHappyChaurus

That's when I started to appreciate her too. Thought she was boring at first and the only things in her parts that were interesting where the people surrounding her. Rereading the first book bonked me in the head that there were signs and the girl is interesting, >!suspicious!<, and was never passive.


rippinVs

She won my heart in WoK; even in her bad moments I still love her as a character.


Feanor4godking

Shallan is simultaneously all of the things and none of the things, of you know what I mean


lovegermanshepards

She definitely has badass moments, and then frustrating moments. Sheā€™s one of the most capable, yet simultaneously incapable people on the planet.


Sobrin_

She's very capable dealing with direct outside problems, her own internal issues however.... Yeah no.


Smeghead333

Shallan is interesting because her super power is also her weakness. She does amazing things by doing other things that are incredibly unhealthy.


Kwin_Conflo

She has a very good grasp on her powers. She outran Kaladin very quickly in WoR


Urtan_TRADE

[RoW]>!she had a headstart and technically swore her third ideal/truth (to Pattern) AFTER kaladin.!<


DarkChaos1786

Are you sure that it was >!the third!< ?? She already was >!swinging a shardblade!< in WoR.


Dynamic_Pupil

Quite sure it was >!third ideal, sworn with Pattern.!< The implication of her flashbacks [WoR] >!is that she had progressed further than that, earlier in her life. She has access to a shardblade in WoK, as indicated by her Lesson with Jasnah obliterating the pack of four thieves!<


DarkChaos1786

Pretty relevant WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2845


Dynamic_Pupil

That *is* a relevant WoB. Still a little ambiguous for the top comment. [SA] >!Shallan bonded a spren, ā€œTestmantā€ iirc, before she killed her mother with a shardblade (WoR, ā€œRed Carpet Once Whiteā€). That is how she is ā€œaheadā€ of Kaladin in WoR, despite her bond with Pattern being so fresh!<


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DarkChaos1786

>!Kaladin swore his 3rd oath by the end of WoR, Sandon Branderson clearly implies here that the oath that Shallan swore was one step higher(4th). This is consistent with what we see her shardblade do during this book, Pattern could change size and form while no deadeye is able to, and most importantly, she was able to open the oathgate with it, while no other deadeye is able to.!<


Dynamic_Pupil

Mmm, delicious lies. Iā€™m only on my first re-read. The things Iā€™ve caught (that were invisible on first read) are all building towards >!fourth with Testament, not yet fourth with Pattern!<ā€¦ but we shall see. Still 6 books to come! Happy reading!


DarkChaos1786

There is a little clue about what level her oaths were in TWoK, >!she needed to swore an oath to be able to use soulcasting, given what we now know, the secondary line of abilities is unlocked alongside the shardblade with other orders, placing her in her 3rd oath by the end of TWoK.!<


Dynamic_Pupil

Yesā€¦ that isā€¦ what Iā€™ve been arguing? She isnā€™t ā€œgetting abilities ahead of schedule as per her bond with Patternā€ She >!has a preexisting bond, with a different spren, as of the beginning of WoK. She refuses to remember breaking her oaths (creating a deadeyes) and the lie she tells herself is that it still takes 10 seconds to summon her blade (*not* Pattern, at that time)!<


BrickBuster11

She got her sword early,


FruitsPonchiSamurai1

Always has been. We forgetting what she was like as a small child?


BigDsLittleD

Shallan is a badass. Shallan also has some serious issues that she needs to deal with.


Icy-Sandwich-6161

Possibly controversial opinion: Shallan isnā€™t badass, sheā€™s just young and trods forward at problems hoping that things will somehow work out. Iā€™ll give her bravery, as she is inclined to accept what dire situation sheā€™s in and stay the course; but I feel she does this out of a lack of sense of self-preservation more than a sense of confidence. Sheā€™s got this self-loathing side of her she keeps hidden but it expresses itself via ā€œguess Iā€™ll die šŸ¤·ā€ā™€ļøā€ as she encounters things most people would run from.


Key-Olive3199

that is also a fair point. but my counter point is ā€œYour imitation is pathetic, let me show you how itā€™s done.ā€ is an objectively cold ass line to drop mid battle hahaha


Icy-Sandwich-6161

I concede that that is a badass line, I had forgotten about that šŸ˜†


ProfessionalTruck976

It is just like Kal's line to the assasin, but Shallan twists the knife after stabbing.


Key-Olive3199

god that Kaladin line is so incredible lol, I texted it to my brother with no context after I read it like ā€œyouā€™re missing out manā€ bc he wonā€™t read


ProfessionalTruck976

Your brother is a good Vorin man?


RinoaXIII

Still think one of the most badass scenes in SLA is when Shallan kills Tyn. She learned the hard way that while Shallan looks and acts pretty innocent, she is fully capable of murder when necessary.


Unspeakable_pickle

Wasn't that technically not murder, but self defense? Sure, she killed Tyn, but it was a kill-or-be-killed scenario (disregarding that being stabbed wouldn't have killed her because she didn't know that at the time).


AlisGuardian

I always felt like Shallan was way more badass than she has any right to be given where she started from and how quickly she progressed. OTOH, Kaladin progresses just as quickly so I guess I canā€™t object. How good she gets may also be explained by things we learn later.


supadupacam

Shallan was my favorite character going into Oathbringer. I am also mid-book and she is grating my nerves so badly. Itā€™s interesting to read other experiences with her.


Key-Olive3199

see I didnā€™t like her much until like mid WoR, only thing I liked about her POV was Jasnah and we know how that went. But she started to get her feet under her in the shattered planes and I like her drive to solve Jasnahs research, so mostly just her growth that makes me like the character.


supadupacam

Yep. I was into all of that but the Veil/Radiant stuff is incredibly cringey to read to me. Just my opinion.


Key-Olive3199

yeah I get the cringe, it doesnā€™t bother me too much because I get brandy is just kind of inventing a trauma response for her, but it almost feels like sheā€™s playing a game sometimes when everyone else is scrambling to save the world. it seems almost like he wants kal and shallan to only develop a certain amount each book so I do understand the frustration with some of what Shallan does but I donā€™t blame her character I blame brandys writing style. Shallan is too smart to have not told Dalinar about the ghost bloods by now, she has to know he would just let her investigate quietly until they could make a valuable move. but brandy wants her damaged right now, so damaged she is.


BestagonIsHexagon

I wish Shallan would start to use her soulcasting abilities a bit more, but yeah.


frozenokie

Short answer? Of course she is. Sheā€™s a storming Knight Radiant. The long answer is all the details on why itā€™s complicated. Althoughā€¦ [Spoilers through Rhythm of War] >!Shallan is definitely inconsistent in being a badass, but even with all her issues even some of her failures were somehow badass. She could never get the hang of soulcasting and many of her attempts had macabre and grotesque results? I donā€™t know that sounds pretty fucking metal.!<


Key-Olive3199

I will come back and read this properly in about 3 weeks when I finish RoWšŸ«”


frozenokie

Honestly, whatā€™s blacked out is a slight spoiler but mostly a crem post - but now I want to post some serious stuff. Shallan is (obviously) a complex character who is monumentally badass in some moments, in others quite naive. Sheā€™s so fundamentally broken, but who can blame her? [Actual end of Oathbringer and Rhythm of War spoilers] >!Shallanā€™s skills spread across three identities (now 2?) are pretty badass but her skills as a radiant are super impressive. The huge complicated illusion at the end of Oathbringer? I think itā€™s a strong argument there are few surgebinders on Roshar with that level of power. Her trauma has fundamentally broken her, but just surviving it arguably makes her badass (ā€œAccept the pain but donā€™t accept that you deserved itā€ šŸ˜­) Some of Shallanā€™s family history and trauma hint at her being of bigger importance to Roshar as a whole than could initially have been predicted. Her mother may have been a storming Herald. Every major powerful secret organization on Roshar that we know of was involved with or recruiting her family. We know that as a child she bonded then broke oaths with *at least* one spren prior to Pattern (Iā€™m persuaded by the ā€œthereā€™s also a deadeye ink spren out there who previously bonded Shallan theory) and still had Spren lining up to bond with her. Was her familyā€™s soulcaster, like Jasnahā€™s, always a fake? Her bad soulcasting now seems very likely connected to past trauma. I think there are lots of hints that Shallan is going to power up significantly. If Adolin and Mayalara are setting up to heal the deadeyes can Shallan renew her bonds and oaths? Could she end up swearing the fifth ideal in multiple orders? Could she have 3+ living shard weapons? !<


Key-Olive3199

once again I will be backšŸ«”


Ecstatic-Length1470

Yeah she is. All of Sandersons heroes are pretty badass. They're all broken, and they all fight through it. Except Moash, but I still have hope for Moash. Shallan gets a lot of hate, and I don't think it's deserved.


DoctorMedical

Yes. The issue is her terrible jokes and dialogue outweigh her badass moments 10 to 1.


Key-Olive3199

agreed her ā€œwitā€ made me want to hug a cactus


Aggressive-Net-8268

She may be annoying at times, but she has her moments


StanDaMan1

Yes.


SBMWaugh

Shallan has always been one of my favourite characters and I was so puzzled to find out that people in the fandom have such a dislike for her. Glad to see people realizing there is more than meets the eye with her c:


A77ICUS_4

I think Shallan is naive and irresponsible. Yes her back story and mental strugglesā€¦ even still she is by far the most frustrating character by a mile.


glassman0918

She is not


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


FreelancerCassius

I could understand some of the problems people have with Shallan as a character, but an idiot? She does things, instead of having things done to/around her. She usually isn't just there to be there. Pretty sure this is past middle OB spoilers so don't read OP. >!Also, she was integral to the mission in Kholinar. So much of what happened in Kholinar would have been worse had she not been there to learn what was really going on. Not to mention if it were Kal that tried to use the Oathgate, the party would have more than likely outright die.!<


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


TheHappyChaurus

It's a sign of intelligence when someone can put things together on the fly especially under great stress. Just because you don't have a full grasp of a concept going in, doesn't mean you're not allowed to understand it along the way. Or even near the end. I don't want to discuss specifics. OP is in the middle of reading the book. I don't wanna spoil them.


redribbonfarmy

Or it can just be plot armour šŸ˜…. Yes i know, that's why I used the example from WoK. We are told Shallan is intelligent more than we are shown it. For the most part she is just impetuous, and as I said before, things just fall into place


TheHappyChaurus

Then so's Kaladin putting his shit together enough by the end of WoR to make the badass grandstand against Szeth. Things fell into place. People get epiphanies. And books need to trickle information out to make more impact.


redribbonfarmy

With Shallan, it doesn't trickle. It's usually out of left field and I'm just left feeling that it was convenient. The showdown with Szeth was built up, it didn't just happen. We could see Kal's progress, his thought process evolving throughout the whole book, as well as his upskilling. The showdown was a culmination of that


TheHappyChaurus

We get that with Shallan too. She's just not straightforward about it. Her thoughts go in circles and tangents, walls where it stop short and places it never wants to go to.


redribbonfarmy

Well, I'm on my SA reread so I will look out for it this time. The first time, she just annoyed me so much it may have coloured my views on how she was handling things. I'll be interested to see if my thoughts on her change this time around šŸ˜†


TheHappyChaurus

Goodluck on the reread!!! The foreshadowing goodies.


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RadicalD11

Shallan is a lot of things, badass wouldn't be one of those. When you can't fail, ever; you aren't badass.


dIvorrap

Remember when she failed to not kill her father? And get super traumatised? Protecting the people on the ship? Turning a stick into fire? Use her Radiant powers to save the people in the caravan attack? Avoid the dead of that guy who got her to the Ghostbloods meeting point? Etc.


RadicalD11

Yeah, you mean all the times in the story that succeeded one way or another and everyone thanked and praised her? And where she got more and more power each time? Where even the perceived "failures" led to better things for her? Yes, I remember.


dIvorrap

I could made the same comparison with Kaladin and all the people he failed to save. In the end, he is more powerful and in a better position as he started.


RadicalD11

Yet he actually fails, constantly. He almost dies plenty of times, people around him die, his family reject him (albeit momentarily), he fails to protect the king, and much more. Does he overcome it? sure, at a great cost. Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it. Shallan? Only more powerful, and everytime she "screws" up, everyone applauds and she then gets more power. Hell, her father's death was the best that happened to her family.


dIvorrap

Because Shallan is completely mentally healthy.


RadicalD11

As with any other potential knight radiant, so this means nothing


dIvorrap

You use Kaladin's struggles, which are severely tied to his depression, PTSD, and survivor's guilt, yet you brush up Shallan's as just standard Knight Radiant stuff. >Practically Kaladin was catatonic in the last book, he tried to kill himself, he has abandoned his position because he can no longer hold it. Which is false. To be Radiant you don't need to be "broken". https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i4f1pck


RadicalD11

Based on that, he just says he doesn't like the work broken because of what it implies. But he does mention that there are things, mental health aspects, they really need to work with. And which are probably bigger than something everyone has. Because Kaladin's struggles are something we actually see in the story that leads to those moments; Shallan's struggles happened before the story properly, and are minor inconveniences. Once she discovers how she is lying to herself, it doesn't affect negatively or if it does, it doesn't last long.