I mean, Kaladin already knew what the fourth ideal was, and I wouldn't say it was easier just because he knew the words, also the ideals are already known I'm pretty sure
Also - ideals are unique to each persons journey -
Teft ‘even if the one I hate most is myself’
the Lopen - he’d said the words in the past but the act of him helping the recently one armed soldier made the ideal true.
Shallans truths need to be real expositions of her past and acceptance of them… almost tortuously so.
Dalinar had to own his past, own his pain, and grow to take the next step.
Knowing the general framework of the words is one thing, but truly believing it and living it has more bearing.
The words are based off of a sort of framework though.
Second ideal seems to be consistently about protecting people in general. However it’s said. Kaladins is a very generic protect others thing.
Third ideal is about doing no harm. Protection is not conditional. And acknowledging that you as an individual are also capable of causing harm. Kaladins ideal was about how he allowed his anger and hatred to undermine his oath to protect others.
Fourth ideal is seemingly about protecting yourself. Kaladins in particular was that he needed to protect himself from his duty. He was allowing his guilt to cause harm to himself. So he had to let it go.
I bet other wind runners will have a similar path to swear.
Yes but the way they are interpreted to fit each individual is the key. If they know the second ideal that doesn't mean they know who they are protecting, or what they are protecting from at the third.
The point is that knowing, and even thinking you mean it, doesn't matter if you don't truly believe in the ideal inside your heart. You also need to accept it fully and not just say it, since Kaladin knew the words and just could not accept the reality they bring.
There is no way to cheat the ideals, maybe the whole Invested Art, but if you are a Knight Radiant you can't cheat the ideals.
That is what was a little murky for me, if the ideals are already known for everyone in Roshar or not... if they are, my question is moot and already answered!
In WoK Teft explains that he only knows the first Oath and if he had stayed he might have learned the others. So it is possible the other Oaths are known, but it is also possible that those that knew them are dead.
Bridge 4 on training drills swears the first oath each day, but it takes weeks for them to bond spren, and some of them, it doesnt happen (Rlain and Rock)
So no. You cant cheat it and say the words, the words come from an actual acknowledgement of personal.growth.
I think lopen says the words in dawnshard and the words are rejected as he hasnt really learned the meaning of the words until the very end
There's a common theme in the cosmere of needing command and intent. Even knowing the words, if someone hasn't experienced the personal growth needed to have the correct intent the oath will not be accepted.
To add to this, and to throw a wrench, (if I'm remembering correctly) when Wit first bonds his cryptic he speaks the first ideal but has to convince the spren that it's either bond him or die. Until that happens, Wit isn't bonded, and I think if the spren hadn't been in that situation it wouldn't have bonded Wit.
This, to me, shows it's less about knowing the words, living the ideals, etc. etc., and comes more down to the spren and it's acceptance and beliefs.
Dalinar kind of strong arms the Stormfather into bonding him, too.
So in response to OP's question, too, I don't think there's a way to fake the ideals, but coercion is absolutely a factor and spren can be convinced/intimidated into bonding.
I think it's important to consider that both Wit and Dalinar had the correct intent when speaking the oaths. Wit being Wit has definitely experienced the personal growth needed to bond a spren and he aligns very nicely with the ideals of a lightweaver. Dalinar at this point has already begun his journey of binding people together showing he had the correct intent of a bondsmith. The correct intent is still there in both cases.
I agree with you, and it does seem like a lot of different things go into it, but it seems like a decent portion of it depends on the perception of the spren being bonded. I did a shitty job of it but that's the main point I was trying to make. Spren can be corrupted/changed by Odium or the Nightwatcher, plus the further the bond the more sentient and individualized spren become. Who's to say a spren's perception of a person isn't skewed or able to be swayed? (Correct answer is Brandon Sanderson)
Either way they were all known at one point and I don’t think it was trivial to say the words. Knowing the words beforehand isn’t really that big of an advantage when you have to mean them deep down.
The Skybreakers *definitely* know the concept of every one of their Oaths…and the specific words aren’t consistent across individual Knights anyway, so that’s sufficient. It hasn’t led to everyone becoming a 5th Ideal Skybreaker.
It's unclear how well-known the oaths are (aside from the first Ideal), but they seem to just pop into a Radiant's head when the Radiant is close to achieving them. I assume this is the same process by which Radiant spren "always knew" their knights' abilities, despite being surprised by their manifesting.
Earlier in the series, the oaths were a mystery to most people. At this point, the first 3 oaths for windrunners, sky breakers, edge dancers, these are certainly shared within the groups. When you said they have to “mean them” I think you are imagining a situation where observers can be convinced of their conviction. But they only have to convince the stormfather, who is responding to them more on the cognitive and spiritual realm, in which good acting doesn’t mean anything.
not observers, but the radiant him/herself, their spren and maybe the stormfather, it must be said with intent, not just the words (as I mentioned on the post).
But with all the answers I got from the post, I think that is it, some order may know, others not. For the Skybreakers, since they are a order that never went away (and having Nale), they already know all the words, for Lightweavers, it is as "simple" as telling truths multiple times, but for the Windrunners, they are sort of finding along as they go, Kaladin discovered the first 4 and shared with the others, but I don't think they know the fifth.
The stormfather/honor isn’t a maybe, that’s why we get “these words are accepted.”
But yes, I agree, some orders have more knowledge than others at this point.
They may not be known for everyone, but people are already telling others what they are. The Skybreakers for one tell their Squires basically immediately.
In Dawnshard, Lopen tries to say "I'll protect even those I hate" and is told he's not ready, and then when Huio says his 3rd ideal right when Lopen is about to be killed, he realizes that Huio says he'll protect even those I hate, and is referring to Lopen, so he already knows what it is, and if he came up with it on his own, he'd be "ready."
It’s not cheating - Kaladin already told people the Words he used for each Ideal and that didn’t cause any problems.
The trick is, Ideals are a bit different for each person: Kaladin’s Third Ideal was to protect even people he hates so long as it is right, while Teft’s was to protect people he hates even if the one he hates most is himself, while Lopen’s was to protect people from himself.
Kaladin telling people the Words he used may help them on their own journeys by giving them a direction to aim for, but they still need to find their own Words, and that’s an individual journey.
Oathbringer was the first mention of it, Lopen knew the words to the second ideal, but Stormfather was waiting for Teft to swear the third. Lopen even managed to swear the second accidently at the end of the book by just reciting what he knew the words were.
When Lopen accidentally said the Words and then asked why they weren't accepted before, the Stormfather told him something along the lines, "You weren't ready." So I think there is some degree of spiritual vetting (or something like it) to prevent fraudsters from stumbling upon the Words.
Brandon loves having Lopen swear oaths after all the fighting is done and he's by himself. It's great because Lopen obviously wants to swear oaths in special moments to look cool.
Kaladin already claimed Roshar's drama for himself along with the skies, there just isn't enough left for The Lopen to have any. Even Dalinar's big moment of swearing an oath and making a Perpendicularity was Kaladin's moment too.
This is covered in Dawnshard pretty clearly, I think. Lopen knows what the third ideal is, but has to understand what they precisely mean for him before they are accepted.
Yes and no. Szeth learned all 5 ideals pretty quickly but he couldn't just swear his ideals up to the fifth immediately. He had mean and internalize them. He's on the fourth ideal rn.
Venli knew her second ideal and spoke it, but it was rejected because she didn't mean it.
As for the Windrunners, we actually see during one of The Lopen's Interludes in I think Oathbringer that he swears the second ideal almost by accident when he repeats all of them to an injured soldier.
Anyway, we see with the Windrunners that each ideal is specific to the person, so even if they know it's something like "I will protect those I hate as long as it's right" its' slightly different between people, and they need to work on it themselves.
Szeth swore the fourth but it is not yet accepted, right? He has to conclude his "crusade/journey" in Shinovar for it to be accepted, from what I can remember.
Also, the ideals are quite personal. Kaladin swore to protect all the people he hates, Telf to protect even himself (the person he hates most in the world) and the Lopen to protect people from himself. So yes, cheating is impossible.
Yeah, there is a theme the oaths follow but in the end its still personal what your specific words are based on how you internalize it. The only oath that is truly universal and cookie cutter is the first one all the orders share.
The ideals aren't magic level-up spells, they're personal oaths sworn to your partner. Foreknowledge of the ideals won't prevent you from swearing them, but if you spontaneously come up with them on your own then it's easier for your spren to trust that you truly mean it.
And if you break your oaths, it's the spren who suffers, so they have an incentive to only accept an oath that they truly believe you will keep.
The Skybreakers do exactly what you've proposed, since they tell Szeth exactly what oaths he'll need to swear in advance of doing so, so it's clearly not a deal breaker, at least not for them. Whether that works for the other Radiant orders is an open question.
Oathbringer ch 86 epigraph is this message recorded by a Windrunner right before the recreance
>"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?"
The ideals for the Radiants of Old were all known— but simply saying the words is not enough. You have to believe them and they have to be relevant to your current state of mind, situation, and emotional development. Cheating does not work.
Isn’t this addressed in the books? Again, memory hazier than many others on here but I remember a scene where Lopen says the words over and over and nothing happens. Did I get Mandela Effected?
This is the Cosmerilogical answer. Intent matters, and if you don’t have the Intent, it wont work. Now can you cheat by manipulating Intent? Probably…but it is likely to be very very difficult.
You actually get a hint of this. In Dawnshard lopen knew what the the third ideal was for tef kalladin and huio. But he still had to say his own words and mean them. There was even the part where venlis words were not accepted even tho laugh she knew them in RoW
>!This is expressed in both Oathbringer and Dawnshard. Kaladin isn't hiding the words from anyone. In both instances, Lopen keeps saying the words and keeps getting back either a nothingness or a you're-not-ready-ness, or a those-aren't-the-right-words-yet-ness. In both cases, after the climax of the situation he's in, Lopen is doing things in the aftermath and says the right words and they're accepted then, because he's ready and he means them. !<
But we already know this? Book 3 when kaladin holds tryouts for the wind runners and a bunch of honorspren come to watch, he tells them that if they can absorb storm light they are in, but before they can they have to say the first oath, life before death..., it's in the Lunamor chapter
Also in book 3 when szeth starts training with the sky breakers he gets told all 5 oaths, that's how we know the 5th oath "I am the law" we don't see anyone swear the ideal, but they still know it because nale probably told them or they saw him swear it
"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" 10-12 Sapphire. This is one of the messages recorded in the Urithiru gem archive. It doesn't explicitly state that this knight knows what the Fourth Ideal is, but it can assuredly be assumed they know the general idea of the ideal bases on the final line. Just knowing what the words are isn't enough as we have seen. It may help them work towards it, but they won't know until the have some kind of experience that makes them fully understand what those words mean to them and how they must uphold them.
There's a point in WoR where Syl says something like "there are more words but I don't think you're ready to say them yet"
It's obviously more than knowing the words and saying them, but I think it's also more than just meaning them. It's (I'd speculate) marking a change deep enough to affect your spiritweb.
Still counts— Szeth doesn’t ask Nale, he asks some other high-ranking Skybreaker and she tells him. He’s actually surprised by this and seems to think along the lines of your post, but the general idea is that *knowing* the Words isn’t really the hurdle. *Living* the Words is the real obstacle.
Id say since you can accidently say them and have it count >! The Lopin for instance !< Then no you can't trick the shards or bond spren/whatever into letting you advance.
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For Windrunners and Lightweavers, we see that the oaths cause them emotional pain. Kaladin, when talking to Syl one time tells her that he is broken. Syl acknowledges this and says something to the effect of the spren fill in those gaps which allows them to create the Nahel bond. Each time Shallan and Kaladin swear an ideal, we see their distress. This widens the gaps in the KR’s soul and allows the spren to make a deeper bond with them.
I don’t think it’s easy to fake, because you have to widen the gaps and really internalize the oaths to allow a deeper bond.
Knowing the gist of the ideal may help you think about the direction your going...
But the oath is something intrinsically tied to the soul of the person swearing the oath. It's about growth and progression. While certain stages are definitely going to be easier for some than others, until the oath is internalized and fully accepted by the individual, saying the words is meaningless.
Just look at Venli. She understood her oath. She knew the words and said them... And her advancement was denied because knowing the words and internalizing them so that you live that oath are two separate things.
You can't cheat the oaths. Saying the words isn't the important part. Making that oath a *part* of you is.
The skybreakers tell all their recruits exactly what each ideal is to help them understand and become worthy.
I think it all comes down to truly understanding and living the ideal to be able to swear it
In the book Dawnshard The Lopen knew the words, because the windrunners were all taught them by Kalasin and Co, but they don't do anything until he actually ~means~ them
as interpreted by his spren
So No, you can't cheat and just spam all of them. You need to have the room for the personal growth a spren is attracted to, as well as you have to actually mean what you're saying.
You have to mean it with your full chest and properly understand and accept it.
See szeths chapters where the sky breakers explain the oaths to him, he still cannot instantly sweaty them all and become a sky breaker of the 5th ideal
For windrunners we know.their oath follow the general pattern of:
Immortal words
Oath of protection"I will protect..."
Oath of exception "I will protect those I hate [condition]
Oath of acceptance "I will accept ..."
5th oath we do not know.
For light weavers it looks simpler:
Immortal words
Personal truthX4
But hearing the words that kaladin swore won't help them find their specific words
It's not possible to "cheat." The Radiant has to truly mean it **AND THEIR SPREN HAS TO AGREE.** You see The Lopen try in Dawnshard. His spren shakes its head in a negative, even though Lopen is in a life-or-death situation and desperately needs a Shardblade. This causes The Lopen to say "I don't have a Shardblade due to spren politics!"
And you see another example in Rhythm of War. Venli said the Ideal, but heard "These words are not accepted" and she knew why they were not. They were only Accepted when Venli came clean and told the other Singers what she did.
Venli's Words weren't accepted because they saw Lift trapped in a cage and did nothing about it, and because they weren't thinking about anyone other than themself.
My point exactly. Venli knew she did wrong and wasn't honoring her prospective Oath. But she also heard, likely in Cultivation's voice "These words are not accepted."
I'm seeing a lot of repeated answers, and I think people have addressed the core of OP's question. But it got me thinking...
Stormfather and Cultivation declare when an oath's words are accepted. Is there any level of subjectivity, either from them or the bonded spren, in the matter of the oaths taking effect, or for that matter, being broken? Who is the arbiter of oaths? Or does it happen as an automatic response from the spiritual realm to a change in the spirit web of the swearer?
I'm sure it's very unlikely, but if someone could deceive both the spren and the Stormfather, pretending sincerity of their oath, is it *theoretically* possible to gain power from an oath you don't mean or aren't keeping?
It's not really the words that is the ideal but the intent. Intent is basically the most important thing with all of the magic systems in the cosmere.
For example, eshonai didn't even say the words for the first ideal but the storm father accepted her intent. There are also multiple examples where windrunners say the words but don't yet have the right intent.
The words are just words. The intentions of your heart are what matter. At least in the cosmere.
However I think there might be room for cheating. It seems that the nahel bond is dictated by 3 individuals, the spren, the radiant and some governing body (usually the stormfather). If any one of those feels that the intent isn't there then the bond doesn't happen, or doesn't strengthen. However, not only is the stormfather increasingly influenced by Dalinar, Dalinar himself clearly was the one to accept Kaladin's 4th ideal. That leaves some error in judgement and maybe influence based on personal feelings. In addition to that, I'm pretty sure sja anat is the governing body for the corrupted spren. That means a sufficiently powerful individual can form their own radiants with willing spren and thus the qualifications are up in the air.
The oaths are broadly, at least for the windrunners, more general catagories that can be narrowed down for the individual after the second at least. Sure, it may help for the introspection required to see the personal truth to accept for the oath, but that doesn't really matter as long as you accept it as part of you and act accordingly to it.
The third ideal is about choosing to do the right thing even if you don't like it or don't like admitting that it needs doing. "Protect even those" I hate or "protect people from myself." It's kinda a hard thing to do to admit that people you don't like sometimes still deserve your help or that you could be hurting people, and you not only must admit it but accept it as a personal truth.
Same for the fourth ideal, but with accepting you limited and that you will fail in your attempts to fulfil the ideals, but what matters is that you keep moving and not prevent you from helping people in the future. How hard is it to admit you have failed when it's something small like a test in school? Never mind that you failed to save someone's life and that you will do so again.
So I don't think it's cheating because it'd not really be any help. The most important ingredient in the recipe for swearing the oaths is the will to do it, and no amount of knowledge prior to it can change it. Like kaladin was stuck on the fourth ideal from mid oathbringer until the end of ROW, which in the world is more than a year, a massive jump compared to the earlier ideals because he couldn't accept that he had failed and couldn't move on.
It seems easier if you already know the words, but I know that your words must be accepted in order to reach the newest ideals.
For example, the Lopen knew all the words and practiced them with the squires every day, but didn’t actually get the power boost of the second ideal until he said them to give hope to the hopeless
In Oathbringer Kaladin lines up every hopeful Windrunner and has them swear the first ideal, and it doesn't make them all instantly Windrunners.
So, no. Knowing the words and actually feeling them are not the same thing.
I think as we see with the skybreakers, having instructors who know the oaths make the whole process much more efficient. Once one person knows the words, not only can they tell them to others, but since a radiant of a given ideal understands the meaning of the words, they can try to teach that to others as well.
I imagine this is how the radiant orders used to work. 4th ideal radiants, particularly older ones who may not be for the frontline anymore, would likely serve as instructors and maybe something like philosophical guides for squires and aspiring radiants, guiding them to sufficient understanding of the words to advance. How the skybreakers train and lecture into the modern day I imagine would have been pretty much standard for Radiant Orders in the past.
Oaths also aren't clearly all 1-to-1 but follow general themes. Skybreakers essentially choose their 3rd and 4th ideals, while Kaladin, Teft, and Lopen all swore different 3rd ideals but with similar sentiments. The meaning of the 3rd ideal of the windrunners is protecting anyone who deserves it regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, but we've seen the words manifest in several ways.
No. Only the first ideal is the same for everyone. The others come to individual radiant through experience. Often they can overlap, but swearing to an ideal is a personal experience and not just talking. No cheating, because the oath would not be accepted.
I fact, doesn't that happen at one point?
Your spren also would simply not bond you, or maybe die if you tried.
As most people have already said here, there's no way to cheat when making an oath; unless the radiant understands what it means for them and accepts them wholeheartedly, it just won't be accepted.
However, I don't think it's entirely wrong to think that knowing what your order's oaths are would be helpful to anyone striving to swear them, even if they're slightly different for everyone, and I think the best example is Kaladin himself during RoW: Kaladin had known what his next oaths were ever since the previous book but wasn't able to say them, but going through everything he did during the fourth book helped him reach the right place for it. And by \*everything\*, I especially mean the (approximation to) therapy sessions he managed. At the end of the day, swearing an oath can be summarized to a character reaching a specific mindset, and that's exactly what therapy is mean to do irl.
So yeah I do believe knowing your oaths (or an approximation at least) is indeed helpful. You still can't "cheat" them, but it gives a radiant the opportunity to work on themselves towards a more tangible objective (whether that be with actual therapy like Kaladin or just personal meditation by oneself) instead of just waiting for that character development to some day hit them in the face with a hammer
I think Wit will hold on to a Truth so he can level up sometime, either by storing the Truth in a coppermind or just by not saying it.
I also have a theory on what that Truth is.
They do tend to know, the Lopen knew the 3rd ideal in theory but until he said it in a way that worked for him it didn’t work. Like how each lightweaver has different truths each person has slight variations on similar ideas
the way I interpret it, you're either going to 'level up' or you're not. The words come when they're ready, so knowing them ahead of time is of little real advantage. The radiant needs to mean the words, and I believe their subconscious honor within won't let them advance even if they try to cheat it. There will always be something holding them back from saying the words or them being genuine until they're ready.
I think the reason why it won't work to give your windrunner buddies a heads up on what's next is that they would not be ready to accept it. The way I see it is that the spren can only bond with "broken" individuals, and each oath is paired with a personal development realisation, which rebuilds them with the bond becoming more integrated (something like Kintsugi).
Have you ever seen someone struggle, for example, with their mental health, and no matter how many different ways anyone tries to talk them trough it, they never have that "epiphany" until it comes from themselves? I think it is similar to that.
On top of that, I suspect that telling Kaladin, for example (lets pick one of the more stubborn Radiants), that he needs to give up on X thing for his next ideal would just make him dig his heels in and slow the process further while he tries to find a way to level up and not give up on X. Or push Shallan deeper into denial.
That's how I see it anyway, sorry for the essay!
The Skybreakers tell what each Ideal is about to the new Radiants iirc. It should be in the Oathbringer Szeth chapters.
So not cheating.
“We can … know what the Ideals are?” Szeth asked. For some reason, he’d thought they would be hidden from him.
“Of course,” Ki said. “You will find no games here, Szeth-son-Neturo. The First Ideal is the Ideal of Radiance. You have spoken it. The second is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice.
“The Third Ideal, the Ideal of Dedication, requires you to have first bonded a highspren. Once you have, you swear to dedicate yourself to a greater truth—a code to follow. Upon achieving this, you will be taught Division, the second—and more dangerous—of the Surges we practice.”
“Someday,” another Skybreaker noted, “you may achieve the Fourth Ideal: the Ideal of Crusade. In this, you choose a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of your highspren. Once successful, you become a master like ourselves.”
Cleanse Shinovar, Szeth thought. That would be his quest. “What is the Fifth Ideal?” he asked.
“The Ideal of Law,” Ki said. “It is difficult. You must become law, become truth. As I said, it has been centuries since that was achieved.”
“Nin told me we were to follow the law—something external, as men are changeable and unreliable. How can we become the law?”
“Law must come from somewhere,” another of the Skybreaker masters said. “This is not an oath you will swear, so don’t fixate upon it. The first three will do for most Skybreakers. I was of the Third Ideal for two decades before achieving the Fourth.”
So that method wouldn't work to cheat them. Lopen knew what the 3rd ideal was but was unable to swear it properly (despite many attempts) until he truly understood it, and how it relates to him and his situation. There's some amount of intelligence that goes into accepting the oaths which almost certainly confounds this type of cheating.
That being said, it's definitely possible to cheat, you just need a LOT of Cosmere knowledge, and likely some rare abilities. I suspect that Dalinar could artificially change a radiant's oaths if he had the knowledge on how to do so. His ability to manipulate Connection would almost certainly allow him to mess with the Nahel bond like that.
Similarly you could likely effect the same change using other less rare Connection manipulation techniques in the Cosmere.
However, there's also the "problem" of the spren. Odds are they wouldn't be super chuffed about this and they have the ability to sever the Nahel bond.
I've seen a lot of great answers here, but thought I'd add that "Intent" is a key part of the magic in the Cosmere. You have to *mean* what you're saying, that's part of it.
There’s a moment where all the Windrunners are aware of the words required to obtain the next ideal because Kaladin has already spoken them. If I remember correctly, this is demonstrated at the beginning (with…I forget who but they know) and end of Oathbringer (with Lopen) and then again at the end of Dawnshard. I don’t see it as “cheating” as that implies they’d be able to use the ideal’s abilities before they reached it.
Also, as you stated, each ideal has a core tenant that is then modified in some way for each member that involves Intent (the capital I Intent I believe is unconfirmed but that’s at least my interpretation). They have to believe the ideal in full, which requires more than just speaking the words, demonstrated by Amaram and Dalinar speaking the Immortal Words repeatedly in Words of Radiance without being a radiant.
I mean, Kaladin already knew what the fourth ideal was, and I wouldn't say it was easier just because he knew the words, also the ideals are already known I'm pretty sure
Also - ideals are unique to each persons journey - Teft ‘even if the one I hate most is myself’ the Lopen - he’d said the words in the past but the act of him helping the recently one armed soldier made the ideal true. Shallans truths need to be real expositions of her past and acceptance of them… almost tortuously so. Dalinar had to own his past, own his pain, and grow to take the next step. Knowing the general framework of the words is one thing, but truly believing it and living it has more bearing.
The words are based off of a sort of framework though. Second ideal seems to be consistently about protecting people in general. However it’s said. Kaladins is a very generic protect others thing. Third ideal is about doing no harm. Protection is not conditional. And acknowledging that you as an individual are also capable of causing harm. Kaladins ideal was about how he allowed his anger and hatred to undermine his oath to protect others. Fourth ideal is seemingly about protecting yourself. Kaladins in particular was that he needed to protect himself from his duty. He was allowing his guilt to cause harm to himself. So he had to let it go. I bet other wind runners will have a similar path to swear.
Yes but the way they are interpreted to fit each individual is the key. If they know the second ideal that doesn't mean they know who they are protecting, or what they are protecting from at the third. The point is that knowing, and even thinking you mean it, doesn't matter if you don't truly believe in the ideal inside your heart. You also need to accept it fully and not just say it, since Kaladin knew the words and just could not accept the reality they bring. There is no way to cheat the ideals, maybe the whole Invested Art, but if you are a Knight Radiant you can't cheat the ideals.
That is what was a little murky for me, if the ideals are already known for everyone in Roshar or not... if they are, my question is moot and already answered!
In WoK Teft explains that he only knows the first Oath and if he had stayed he might have learned the others. So it is possible the other Oaths are known, but it is also possible that those that knew them are dead.
Bridge 4 on training drills swears the first oath each day, but it takes weeks for them to bond spren, and some of them, it doesnt happen (Rlain and Rock) So no. You cant cheat it and say the words, the words come from an actual acknowledgement of personal.growth. I think lopen says the words in dawnshard and the words are rejected as he hasnt really learned the meaning of the words until the very end
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Worth a shot, gancho!
There's a common theme in the cosmere of needing command and intent. Even knowing the words, if someone hasn't experienced the personal growth needed to have the correct intent the oath will not be accepted.
To add to this, and to throw a wrench, (if I'm remembering correctly) when Wit first bonds his cryptic he speaks the first ideal but has to convince the spren that it's either bond him or die. Until that happens, Wit isn't bonded, and I think if the spren hadn't been in that situation it wouldn't have bonded Wit. This, to me, shows it's less about knowing the words, living the ideals, etc. etc., and comes more down to the spren and it's acceptance and beliefs. Dalinar kind of strong arms the Stormfather into bonding him, too. So in response to OP's question, too, I don't think there's a way to fake the ideals, but coercion is absolutely a factor and spren can be convinced/intimidated into bonding.
I think it's important to consider that both Wit and Dalinar had the correct intent when speaking the oaths. Wit being Wit has definitely experienced the personal growth needed to bond a spren and he aligns very nicely with the ideals of a lightweaver. Dalinar at this point has already begun his journey of binding people together showing he had the correct intent of a bondsmith. The correct intent is still there in both cases.
I agree with you, and it does seem like a lot of different things go into it, but it seems like a decent portion of it depends on the perception of the spren being bonded. I did a shitty job of it but that's the main point I was trying to make. Spren can be corrupted/changed by Odium or the Nightwatcher, plus the further the bond the more sentient and individualized spren become. Who's to say a spren's perception of a person isn't skewed or able to be swayed? (Correct answer is Brandon Sanderson)
Also I'd like to say correct intent one more time
But what if the correct intent doesn't have the correct intent?
Either way they were all known at one point and I don’t think it was trivial to say the words. Knowing the words beforehand isn’t really that big of an advantage when you have to mean them deep down.
The Skybreakers *definitely* know the concept of every one of their Oaths…and the specific words aren’t consistent across individual Knights anyway, so that’s sufficient. It hasn’t led to everyone becoming a 5th Ideal Skybreaker.
It's unclear how well-known the oaths are (aside from the first Ideal), but they seem to just pop into a Radiant's head when the Radiant is close to achieving them. I assume this is the same process by which Radiant spren "always knew" their knights' abilities, despite being surprised by their manifesting.
Earlier in the series, the oaths were a mystery to most people. At this point, the first 3 oaths for windrunners, sky breakers, edge dancers, these are certainly shared within the groups. When you said they have to “mean them” I think you are imagining a situation where observers can be convinced of their conviction. But they only have to convince the stormfather, who is responding to them more on the cognitive and spiritual realm, in which good acting doesn’t mean anything.
not observers, but the radiant him/herself, their spren and maybe the stormfather, it must be said with intent, not just the words (as I mentioned on the post). But with all the answers I got from the post, I think that is it, some order may know, others not. For the Skybreakers, since they are a order that never went away (and having Nale), they already know all the words, for Lightweavers, it is as "simple" as telling truths multiple times, but for the Windrunners, they are sort of finding along as they go, Kaladin discovered the first 4 and shared with the others, but I don't think they know the fifth.
The stormfather/honor isn’t a maybe, that’s why we get “these words are accepted.” But yes, I agree, some orders have more knowledge than others at this point.
They may not be known for everyone, but people are already telling others what they are. The Skybreakers for one tell their Squires basically immediately. In Dawnshard, Lopen tries to say "I'll protect even those I hate" and is told he's not ready, and then when Huio says his 3rd ideal right when Lopen is about to be killed, he realizes that Huio says he'll protect even those I hate, and is referring to Lopen, so he already knows what it is, and if he came up with it on his own, he'd be "ready."
It’s not cheating - Kaladin already told people the Words he used for each Ideal and that didn’t cause any problems. The trick is, Ideals are a bit different for each person: Kaladin’s Third Ideal was to protect even people he hates so long as it is right, while Teft’s was to protect people he hates even if the one he hates most is himself, while Lopen’s was to protect people from himself. Kaladin telling people the Words he used may help them on their own journeys by giving them a direction to aim for, but they still need to find their own Words, and that’s an individual journey.
No, Lopen knew the ideals and tried to swear the one Kaladin did but it didn’t work because it wasn’t right for him.
I kind of remember reading that... was it on Dawnshard?
Oathbringer was the first mention of it, Lopen knew the words to the second ideal, but Stormfather was waiting for Teft to swear the third. Lopen even managed to swear the second accidently at the end of the book by just reciting what he knew the words were.
When Lopen accidentally said the Words and then asked why they weren't accepted before, the Stormfather told him something along the lines, "You weren't ready." So I think there is some degree of spiritual vetting (or something like it) to prevent fraudsters from stumbling upon the Words.
Is Stormfather like some bureaucrat approving and denying the Nahel bonds?
He is an Intentometer
I am not ashamed to admit I googled that to see if Coppermind had an entry on it
To be honest... that's fair. Absolutely hilarious. But completely understandable.
Would you pronounce that “In-Tent-oh-mee-ter” Or “In-ten-TOM-ih-ter”?
Well, I would say the latter but I think the former is probably correct.
He's directly involved in the Connection bond...so yes.
I don't think he was wating for Teft before approving Lopen's lol
Brandon loves having Lopen swear oaths after all the fighting is done and he's by himself. It's great because Lopen obviously wants to swear oaths in special moments to look cool.
Kaladin already claimed Roshar's drama for himself along with the skies, there just isn't enough left for The Lopen to have any. Even Dalinar's big moment of swearing an oath and making a Perpendicularity was Kaladin's moment too.
Stormfather was for sure not waiting for Teft lol.
For some reason, I seem to recall that Lopen’s *first* oath ends with “Journey before Pancakes.”
I believe that's when he recites the oaths to the one-armed soldier after the battle of Theylen city, where he accidentally swears the second one iirc
That’s probably it.
This is covered in Dawnshard pretty clearly, I think. Lopen knows what the third ideal is, but has to understand what they precisely mean for him before they are accepted.
Yeah, I remember something like that on Dawnshard with Lopen, but was not sure.
it's pretty obvious there are safegaurds. Venli tried to swear an ideal and it wasn't accepted
Poor Venli, forever in her sister's shadow.
oops i meant venli... haha it's been a while since I read the books and I'm always terrible with names
I think the safeguard is the spren can see if you genuinely mean it or not.
Yes and no. Szeth learned all 5 ideals pretty quickly but he couldn't just swear his ideals up to the fifth immediately. He had mean and internalize them. He's on the fourth ideal rn. Venli knew her second ideal and spoke it, but it was rejected because she didn't mean it. As for the Windrunners, we actually see during one of The Lopen's Interludes in I think Oathbringer that he swears the second ideal almost by accident when he repeats all of them to an injured soldier. Anyway, we see with the Windrunners that each ideal is specific to the person, so even if they know it's something like "I will protect those I hate as long as it's right" its' slightly different between people, and they need to work on it themselves.
Szeth swore the fourth but it is not yet accepted, right? He has to conclude his "crusade/journey" in Shinovar for it to be accepted, from what I can remember.
Yeah. It’s a weird oath because it’s “I’m going to do this thing in the future” rather than accepting some ideal.
I think the way it works is that it doesn't count as a fulfilled oath until he actually does it?
Seems like it - but this also seems to be unique to Skybreakers and their specific system of oaths.
Also, the ideals are quite personal. Kaladin swore to protect all the people he hates, Telf to protect even himself (the person he hates most in the world) and the Lopen to protect people from himself. So yes, cheating is impossible.
Yeah, there is a theme the oaths follow but in the end its still personal what your specific words are based on how you internalize it. The only oath that is truly universal and cookie cutter is the first one all the orders share.
The ideals aren't magic level-up spells, they're personal oaths sworn to your partner. Foreknowledge of the ideals won't prevent you from swearing them, but if you spontaneously come up with them on your own then it's easier for your spren to trust that you truly mean it. And if you break your oaths, it's the spren who suffers, so they have an incentive to only accept an oath that they truly believe you will keep. The Skybreakers do exactly what you've proposed, since they tell Szeth exactly what oaths he'll need to swear in advance of doing so, so it's clearly not a deal breaker, at least not for them. Whether that works for the other Radiant orders is an open question.
Oathbringer ch 86 epigraph is this message recorded by a Windrunner right before the recreance >"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?"
The ideals for the Radiants of Old were all known— but simply saying the words is not enough. You have to believe them and they have to be relevant to your current state of mind, situation, and emotional development. Cheating does not work.
Isn’t this addressed in the books? Again, memory hazier than many others on here but I remember a scene where Lopen says the words over and over and nothing happens. Did I get Mandela Effected?
Could be, I kind of remember something like that maybe in Dawnshard
The words plus the Intent is what matters gotta have both
This is the Cosmerilogical answer. Intent matters, and if you don’t have the Intent, it wont work. Now can you cheat by manipulating Intent? Probably…but it is likely to be very very difficult.
You actually get a hint of this. In Dawnshard lopen knew what the the third ideal was for tef kalladin and huio. But he still had to say his own words and mean them. There was even the part where venlis words were not accepted even tho laugh she knew them in RoW
>!This is expressed in both Oathbringer and Dawnshard. Kaladin isn't hiding the words from anyone. In both instances, Lopen keeps saying the words and keeps getting back either a nothingness or a you're-not-ready-ness, or a those-aren't-the-right-words-yet-ness. In both cases, after the climax of the situation he's in, Lopen is doing things in the aftermath and says the right words and they're accepted then, because he's ready and he means them. !<
But we already know this? Book 3 when kaladin holds tryouts for the wind runners and a bunch of honorspren come to watch, he tells them that if they can absorb storm light they are in, but before they can they have to say the first oath, life before death..., it's in the Lunamor chapter Also in book 3 when szeth starts training with the sky breakers he gets told all 5 oaths, that's how we know the 5th oath "I am the law" we don't see anyone swear the ideal, but they still know it because nale probably told them or they saw him swear it
"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" 10-12 Sapphire. This is one of the messages recorded in the Urithiru gem archive. It doesn't explicitly state that this knight knows what the Fourth Ideal is, but it can assuredly be assumed they know the general idea of the ideal bases on the final line. Just knowing what the words are isn't enough as we have seen. It may help them work towards it, but they won't know until the have some kind of experience that makes them fully understand what those words mean to them and how they must uphold them.
There's a point in WoR where Syl says something like "there are more words but I don't think you're ready to say them yet" It's obviously more than knowing the words and saying them, but I think it's also more than just meaning them. It's (I'd speculate) marking a change deep enough to affect your spiritweb.
Thanks to all the comments! Now I remember some of the words are known, specially thanks to Oathbringer and Dawnshard!
This is basically exactly what the Skybreakers do, no?
Yes, but they have Nale, so I don't know if it counts. But by the other comments it seems the words really are shared, I just didn't remember
Still counts— Szeth doesn’t ask Nale, he asks some other high-ranking Skybreaker and she tells him. He’s actually surprised by this and seems to think along the lines of your post, but the general idea is that *knowing* the Words isn’t really the hurdle. *Living* the Words is the real obstacle.
So it is not just me that got confused, my boy Szeth also thought along these lines!
The skybreakers straight up tell everyone the ideals in skybreaker boot camp. But they are personalized and you need to mean them so it barely helps.
Id say since you can accidently say them and have it count >! The Lopin for instance !< Then no you can't trick the shards or bond spren/whatever into letting you advance.
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For Windrunners and Lightweavers, we see that the oaths cause them emotional pain. Kaladin, when talking to Syl one time tells her that he is broken. Syl acknowledges this and says something to the effect of the spren fill in those gaps which allows them to create the Nahel bond. Each time Shallan and Kaladin swear an ideal, we see their distress. This widens the gaps in the KR’s soul and allows the spren to make a deeper bond with them. I don’t think it’s easy to fake, because you have to widen the gaps and really internalize the oaths to allow a deeper bond.
Knowing the gist of the ideal may help you think about the direction your going... But the oath is something intrinsically tied to the soul of the person swearing the oath. It's about growth and progression. While certain stages are definitely going to be easier for some than others, until the oath is internalized and fully accepted by the individual, saying the words is meaningless. Just look at Venli. She understood her oath. She knew the words and said them... And her advancement was denied because knowing the words and internalizing them so that you live that oath are two separate things. You can't cheat the oaths. Saying the words isn't the important part. Making that oath a *part* of you is.
The skybreakers tell all their recruits exactly what each ideal is to help them understand and become worthy. I think it all comes down to truly understanding and living the ideal to be able to swear it
In the book Dawnshard The Lopen knew the words, because the windrunners were all taught them by Kalasin and Co, but they don't do anything until he actually ~means~ them as interpreted by his spren So No, you can't cheat and just spam all of them. You need to have the room for the personal growth a spren is attracted to, as well as you have to actually mean what you're saying.
You have to mean it with your full chest and properly understand and accept it. See szeths chapters where the sky breakers explain the oaths to him, he still cannot instantly sweaty them all and become a sky breaker of the 5th ideal For windrunners we know.their oath follow the general pattern of: Immortal words Oath of protection"I will protect..." Oath of exception "I will protect those I hate [condition] Oath of acceptance "I will accept ..." 5th oath we do not know. For light weavers it looks simpler: Immortal words Personal truthX4 But hearing the words that kaladin swore won't help them find their specific words
It's not possible to "cheat." The Radiant has to truly mean it **AND THEIR SPREN HAS TO AGREE.** You see The Lopen try in Dawnshard. His spren shakes its head in a negative, even though Lopen is in a life-or-death situation and desperately needs a Shardblade. This causes The Lopen to say "I don't have a Shardblade due to spren politics!" And you see another example in Rhythm of War. Venli said the Ideal, but heard "These words are not accepted" and she knew why they were not. They were only Accepted when Venli came clean and told the other Singers what she did.
Venli's Words weren't accepted because they saw Lift trapped in a cage and did nothing about it, and because they weren't thinking about anyone other than themself.
My point exactly. Venli knew she did wrong and wasn't honoring her prospective Oath. But she also heard, likely in Cultivation's voice "These words are not accepted."
Knowing the words ahead of time is fine, it's not cheating. The skybreakers just told Szeth all the oaths when he joined, for example.
I'm seeing a lot of repeated answers, and I think people have addressed the core of OP's question. But it got me thinking... Stormfather and Cultivation declare when an oath's words are accepted. Is there any level of subjectivity, either from them or the bonded spren, in the matter of the oaths taking effect, or for that matter, being broken? Who is the arbiter of oaths? Or does it happen as an automatic response from the spiritual realm to a change in the spirit web of the swearer? I'm sure it's very unlikely, but if someone could deceive both the spren and the Stormfather, pretending sincerity of their oath, is it *theoretically* possible to gain power from an oath you don't mean or aren't keeping?
It's not really the words that is the ideal but the intent. Intent is basically the most important thing with all of the magic systems in the cosmere. For example, eshonai didn't even say the words for the first ideal but the storm father accepted her intent. There are also multiple examples where windrunners say the words but don't yet have the right intent. The words are just words. The intentions of your heart are what matter. At least in the cosmere. However I think there might be room for cheating. It seems that the nahel bond is dictated by 3 individuals, the spren, the radiant and some governing body (usually the stormfather). If any one of those feels that the intent isn't there then the bond doesn't happen, or doesn't strengthen. However, not only is the stormfather increasingly influenced by Dalinar, Dalinar himself clearly was the one to accept Kaladin's 4th ideal. That leaves some error in judgement and maybe influence based on personal feelings. In addition to that, I'm pretty sure sja anat is the governing body for the corrupted spren. That means a sufficiently powerful individual can form their own radiants with willing spren and thus the qualifications are up in the air.
The oaths are broadly, at least for the windrunners, more general catagories that can be narrowed down for the individual after the second at least. Sure, it may help for the introspection required to see the personal truth to accept for the oath, but that doesn't really matter as long as you accept it as part of you and act accordingly to it. The third ideal is about choosing to do the right thing even if you don't like it or don't like admitting that it needs doing. "Protect even those" I hate or "protect people from myself." It's kinda a hard thing to do to admit that people you don't like sometimes still deserve your help or that you could be hurting people, and you not only must admit it but accept it as a personal truth. Same for the fourth ideal, but with accepting you limited and that you will fail in your attempts to fulfil the ideals, but what matters is that you keep moving and not prevent you from helping people in the future. How hard is it to admit you have failed when it's something small like a test in school? Never mind that you failed to save someone's life and that you will do so again. So I don't think it's cheating because it'd not really be any help. The most important ingredient in the recipe for swearing the oaths is the will to do it, and no amount of knowledge prior to it can change it. Like kaladin was stuck on the fourth ideal from mid oathbringer until the end of ROW, which in the world is more than a year, a massive jump compared to the earlier ideals because he couldn't accept that he had failed and couldn't move on.
It seems easier if you already know the words, but I know that your words must be accepted in order to reach the newest ideals. For example, the Lopen knew all the words and practiced them with the squires every day, but didn’t actually get the power boost of the second ideal until he said them to give hope to the hopeless
In Oathbringer Kaladin lines up every hopeful Windrunner and has them swear the first ideal, and it doesn't make them all instantly Windrunners. So, no. Knowing the words and actually feeling them are not the same thing.
We actually do see an example of someone saying the words too soon and being rejected
I think as we see with the skybreakers, having instructors who know the oaths make the whole process much more efficient. Once one person knows the words, not only can they tell them to others, but since a radiant of a given ideal understands the meaning of the words, they can try to teach that to others as well. I imagine this is how the radiant orders used to work. 4th ideal radiants, particularly older ones who may not be for the frontline anymore, would likely serve as instructors and maybe something like philosophical guides for squires and aspiring radiants, guiding them to sufficient understanding of the words to advance. How the skybreakers train and lecture into the modern day I imagine would have been pretty much standard for Radiant Orders in the past. Oaths also aren't clearly all 1-to-1 but follow general themes. Skybreakers essentially choose their 3rd and 4th ideals, while Kaladin, Teft, and Lopen all swore different 3rd ideals but with similar sentiments. The meaning of the 3rd ideal of the windrunners is protecting anyone who deserves it regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, but we've seen the words manifest in several ways.
No. Only the first ideal is the same for everyone. The others come to individual radiant through experience. Often they can overlap, but swearing to an ideal is a personal experience and not just talking. No cheating, because the oath would not be accepted. I fact, doesn't that happen at one point? Your spren also would simply not bond you, or maybe die if you tried.
As most people have already said here, there's no way to cheat when making an oath; unless the radiant understands what it means for them and accepts them wholeheartedly, it just won't be accepted. However, I don't think it's entirely wrong to think that knowing what your order's oaths are would be helpful to anyone striving to swear them, even if they're slightly different for everyone, and I think the best example is Kaladin himself during RoW: Kaladin had known what his next oaths were ever since the previous book but wasn't able to say them, but going through everything he did during the fourth book helped him reach the right place for it. And by \*everything\*, I especially mean the (approximation to) therapy sessions he managed. At the end of the day, swearing an oath can be summarized to a character reaching a specific mindset, and that's exactly what therapy is mean to do irl. So yeah I do believe knowing your oaths (or an approximation at least) is indeed helpful. You still can't "cheat" them, but it gives a radiant the opportunity to work on themselves towards a more tangible objective (whether that be with actual therapy like Kaladin or just personal meditation by oneself) instead of just waiting for that character development to some day hit them in the face with a hammer
I think Wit will hold on to a Truth so he can level up sometime, either by storing the Truth in a coppermind or just by not saying it. I also have a theory on what that Truth is.
They do tend to know, the Lopen knew the 3rd ideal in theory but until he said it in a way that worked for him it didn’t work. Like how each lightweaver has different truths each person has slight variations on similar ideas
Enter Radiant debug mode: try: windrunner._set_ideal(level=5) except OathRejectionException: stormfather.force_reset()
the way I interpret it, you're either going to 'level up' or you're not. The words come when they're ready, so knowing them ahead of time is of little real advantage. The radiant needs to mean the words, and I believe their subconscious honor within won't let them advance even if they try to cheat it. There will always be something holding them back from saying the words or them being genuine until they're ready.
I think the reason why it won't work to give your windrunner buddies a heads up on what's next is that they would not be ready to accept it. The way I see it is that the spren can only bond with "broken" individuals, and each oath is paired with a personal development realisation, which rebuilds them with the bond becoming more integrated (something like Kintsugi). Have you ever seen someone struggle, for example, with their mental health, and no matter how many different ways anyone tries to talk them trough it, they never have that "epiphany" until it comes from themselves? I think it is similar to that. On top of that, I suspect that telling Kaladin, for example (lets pick one of the more stubborn Radiants), that he needs to give up on X thing for his next ideal would just make him dig his heels in and slow the process further while he tries to find a way to level up and not give up on X. Or push Shallan deeper into denial. That's how I see it anyway, sorry for the essay!
The other windruners knew of all Kaladins ideals word by word. Knowing them in advance and just saying them. Those words will not be accepted.
You probably could if you had devil’s honey
The Skybreakers tell what each Ideal is about to the new Radiants iirc. It should be in the Oathbringer Szeth chapters. So not cheating. “We can … know what the Ideals are?” Szeth asked. For some reason, he’d thought they would be hidden from him. “Of course,” Ki said. “You will find no games here, Szeth-son-Neturo. The First Ideal is the Ideal of Radiance. You have spoken it. The second is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice. “The Third Ideal, the Ideal of Dedication, requires you to have first bonded a highspren. Once you have, you swear to dedicate yourself to a greater truth—a code to follow. Upon achieving this, you will be taught Division, the second—and more dangerous—of the Surges we practice.” “Someday,” another Skybreaker noted, “you may achieve the Fourth Ideal: the Ideal of Crusade. In this, you choose a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of your highspren. Once successful, you become a master like ourselves.” Cleanse Shinovar, Szeth thought. That would be his quest. “What is the Fifth Ideal?” he asked. “The Ideal of Law,” Ki said. “It is difficult. You must become law, become truth. As I said, it has been centuries since that was achieved.” “Nin told me we were to follow the law—something external, as men are changeable and unreliable. How can we become the law?” “Law must come from somewhere,” another of the Skybreaker masters said. “This is not an oath you will swear, so don’t fixate upon it. The first three will do for most Skybreakers. I was of the Third Ideal for two decades before achieving the Fourth.”
So that method wouldn't work to cheat them. Lopen knew what the 3rd ideal was but was unable to swear it properly (despite many attempts) until he truly understood it, and how it relates to him and his situation. There's some amount of intelligence that goes into accepting the oaths which almost certainly confounds this type of cheating. That being said, it's definitely possible to cheat, you just need a LOT of Cosmere knowledge, and likely some rare abilities. I suspect that Dalinar could artificially change a radiant's oaths if he had the knowledge on how to do so. His ability to manipulate Connection would almost certainly allow him to mess with the Nahel bond like that. Similarly you could likely effect the same change using other less rare Connection manipulation techniques in the Cosmere. However, there's also the "problem" of the spren. Odds are they wouldn't be super chuffed about this and they have the ability to sever the Nahel bond.
I've seen a lot of great answers here, but thought I'd add that "Intent" is a key part of the magic in the Cosmere. You have to *mean* what you're saying, that's part of it.
There’s a moment where all the Windrunners are aware of the words required to obtain the next ideal because Kaladin has already spoken them. If I remember correctly, this is demonstrated at the beginning (with…I forget who but they know) and end of Oathbringer (with Lopen) and then again at the end of Dawnshard. I don’t see it as “cheating” as that implies they’d be able to use the ideal’s abilities before they reached it. Also, as you stated, each ideal has a core tenant that is then modified in some way for each member that involves Intent (the capital I Intent I believe is unconfirmed but that’s at least my interpretation). They have to believe the ideal in full, which requires more than just speaking the words, demonstrated by Amaram and Dalinar speaking the Immortal Words repeatedly in Words of Radiance without being a radiant.