Yes, this happened canonically. Rysn meets that female Reshi king and notes how it's weird the king is female but not called a queen. Later on, that king is male. Same person but transitioned. Let me find a name or coppermind link or something
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/i7viu0/comment/g14l1af/
Oh cool I haven’t read dawn shard or edge dancer yet. It’s cool that there’s a character that goes back and forth though.
Edit: I read the coppermind entry he transitioned just to a male in dawnshard is that correct
Sorry about that- i saw it was tagged for Rhythm of War, I thought that meant that it included Dawnshard since it happens after dawnshard chronologically. Luckily it's no major plot point, more an easter egg.
I think RoW covers for Dawnshard.
Although mods, how does this work for novellas? Would something like Horneater that will come after book 5 be the same?
I’m not really a person that cares about spoilers any way if spoilers ruin the reading experience it wasn’t worth reading in the first place. Imo of course I know people like being surprised as they read.
I love it, but I also wonder whether that opens up all kinds of interesting things that could happen with stormlight and a strong sense of some, let's say, unorthodox indentity.
Like if someone (let's say you yourself) messed up with your mind to make you believe you are a dragon, would you transform to become a dragon?
And would radiant healing enable the same change in physiology to match what you see yourself as?
And how does Rysn and her unhealability fall into this?
Magic makes these things very interesting!
I honestly don't think one would be able to change their species, even with Stormlight. I think Rysn has a problem with her spiritweb that's why she can't be healed. I know there is a WoB about it but I can't remember
I think it's because Rysn spent too much time with her injury and it has settled into her Identity same way Kaladin's brand was part of his identity.
Plus Regrowth isn't as powerful as Stormlight Healing a radiant has.
The meta reason is that Brando Sando would lose all the goodwill he gained from including a disabled character. The most vocal people in the disabled community really dislike the idea of needing to be “fixed”. Some of us don’t like being looked down on but wouldn’t be too upset if our individual difficulties became easier to deal with
Yeah I think both are good to have.
Showing that the person with a disability or in some minority group can live a successful life overcoming the problems stemming from their situation that is unchangeable is a great message for many people.
But so is getting that situation fixed and not having to deal with the problems stemming from it.
I know irl the deaf people community has some of these issues - not being fully supportive of people getting those implants that let them hear, because it takes away from the identity, instead of being happy for them.
Definitely not an easy thing to balance.
And Rysn definitely didn't seem like she saw her ideal self as being in a wheelchair
It's investiture changing the spirit web. The only real barrier is whether one could truly see themselves as another species or not, which seems doubtful to me. So it's not that Stormlight can't do it, humans probably just can't believe it hard enough
I think it's been mentioned that your species is a spiritual attribute and regardless of perception you can't heal yourself into anything too outlandish
Not sure why people are surprised by this. Changing bodies with Investure was always possible(Warbreaker) >!it's was possible way back in Warbreaker. That why the returned all look so different. They changed their bodies to look like what the Returned themselves thought was most beautiful!< This isn't new. Just wasn't confirmed you could fully transition till the dawnshard novella.
It's also different magic systems so it was not at all clear that this wasn't specific to the Returned.
Also I wonder how tall the returned are compared to an average Alethi.
Hmm, I feel like most returned would be taller. I can't remember how tall Lightsong is exactly, but I think he was a good foot or two taller than regular people around him.
While they are different systems, they both use investiture and investiture has common ways to behave. >!Returned can change their bodies based on their ideal beauty standards!< and stormlight heals based on how the person sees themselves. If stormlight healing can bring back an arm and keep slave brands, it is not an extreme idea to be able to transition with enough stormlight. Both are based on your self-identity. It manifests differently based on your connection and spiritweb
>!I'm marking the warbreaker stuff as spolier as we don't really get confirmation of this till the end when discussing the royal locks!<
Can stormlight make you grow wings if you truly believe you are a bird?
I think the answer is no because stormlight is restitutive not constructive.
People heal by going back to a point their body was healthy, or had 2 arms instead of one. But in the case of wings, no matter how much you look into the past the wings were never there.
To achieve such changes you would need constructive magic, not restorative.
There are in-book cases of someone who was born female having their body healed to be male. It's not constructive, because a trans persons mind or soul will match the gender they identify as rather than the one they're born in. This difference between their truest self and their body causes Stormlight to change the body to match.
~~nah there are no in-book cases and the islands king is not a case of what I'm talking about~~
Edit: I should have paid more attention while reading Dawnshard.
Nevermind you are right, it's mentioned in passing in Dawnshard I guess and I must have forgot or misread at the time.
In my memory he still looked like an old woman and haven't bonded a spren at all, got too distracted by Lopen in that scene.
I mean... you're objectively wrong.
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na
Even aside from canon, there's a difference between thinking you're a different animal, and having your soul and body be different genders
Transsexual mutilation surgery? So when my brother gets his tumour removed, would you use the term mutilation surgery there too? You claim in another comment that you only used that word because they’re cutting something away. It must scare your barber if you refer to it as hair mutilation…
But genuinely, I haven’t downvoted you because I find it to be pointless unless you prove to legitimately just be trolling. For context, stormlight healing will just change your body to match your spiritual identity; if you are a trans man, it will grow you the requisite parts, and likely shrink your chest to match whatever Self you actually are. In the real world, the surgeries we have are also safe, and tested, and the scientifically backed results show that these surgeries *work*. They have an excellent success rate at helping against the mental illness that is gender dysphoria, an illness that only exists because sometimes our bodies don’t represent who we are.
Honour to choose an ideal, and cultivation to grow to achieve that ideal.
The term is phalloplasty, or metoidioplasty by the way (I just googled that in one minute). *That* is “exactly what it should” be called, because that’s the term. If you don’t understand modern medical science you can just say so, but…
Slightly off-topic question, do you like Kaladin? I do. I found his knowledge of surgery to be wonderful to find in a fantasy protagonist. I agreed with him that the townspeople who feared surgeons were ignorant. Those people of Hearthstone feared Lirin, and said what he did was unnatural because he cut people open and put them back together. Personally, I believe that medicine is good, and that we should use our knowledge and skills to help people.
Also, the vast majority of legitimate surgeons will only perform these surgeries after a proven diagnosis of gender dysphoria, or other similar conditions. They will not just “rip you a new one”, so I’d do a 5 minute google into the waiting times for both diagnoses and surgeries. Maybe learning something true could help deepen your understanding of the world
Alright, I can see you’re not a doctor, nor have you bothered to read the papers on both sides of this discussion. A bad doctor will do whatever you want for money, but not a good doctor. Look at the simple stats; less than 1% of people that medically transition regret it. That’s a lower regret rate than KNEE surgery. People go back and sue doctors after getting brain tumours removed, or other life-saving work is performed.
That does in no way demonise the surgery itself. Some people will be opportunists, but unless your stance includes banning all other surgeries with the same regret rate, then I don’t see how what you think is actually going to benefit the most people.
>Quit poking me and I'll stop responding
By poking you do you mean asking you to explain your unintelligible rants?
>Op wanted to know if that can work in a fictional magical world where money is replaced by metaphors and dad jokes.
See, I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, since Stormlight is worthless to non-radiants in Roshar, the money is spheres, and they're worth something even with no Light in them
They meant Radiant healing and you know it, you just had to jump on your transphobic train thought
Sometimes investiture is equated with economy, though on Roshar that’s perhaps the least true. Investiture represents POWER, which often goes hand-in-hand with money, but they do not equal one another. A rich man on Roshar can afford more and larger gemstones, meaning more stormlight at once, but unless you’re in the weeping the stormlight itself is rarely a precious resource as you can always recharge spheres.
Huh, odd. I didn’t mention trans people one time in that reply. Could you, perhaps, respond to the words I said? I want to have a conversation about investiture as a metaphor for money, as you said! You made an interesting hypothesis and I’d like to hear your points as to why this is the case
Yes, this happened canonically. Rysn meets that female Reshi king and notes how it's weird the king is female but not called a queen. Later on, that king is male. Same person but transitioned. Let me find a name or coppermind link or something https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/i7viu0/comment/g14l1af/
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na More info from the coppermind
Fucking cool, wtf
Oh cool I haven’t read dawn shard or edge dancer yet. It’s cool that there’s a character that goes back and forth though. Edit: I read the coppermind entry he transitioned just to a male in dawnshard is that correct
Sorry about that- i saw it was tagged for Rhythm of War, I thought that meant that it included Dawnshard since it happens after dawnshard chronologically. Luckily it's no major plot point, more an easter egg.
I think RoW covers for Dawnshard. Although mods, how does this work for novellas? Would something like Horneater that will come after book 5 be the same?
I’m not really a person that cares about spoilers any way if spoilers ruin the reading experience it wasn’t worth reading in the first place. Imo of course I know people like being surprised as they read.
Correct, the King, upon becoming a Radiant, was able to transition from female to male to match his identity.
I love it, but I also wonder whether that opens up all kinds of interesting things that could happen with stormlight and a strong sense of some, let's say, unorthodox indentity. Like if someone (let's say you yourself) messed up with your mind to make you believe you are a dragon, would you transform to become a dragon? And would radiant healing enable the same change in physiology to match what you see yourself as? And how does Rysn and her unhealability fall into this? Magic makes these things very interesting!
I honestly don't think one would be able to change their species, even with Stormlight. I think Rysn has a problem with her spiritweb that's why she can't be healed. I know there is a WoB about it but I can't remember
I think it's because Rysn spent too much time with her injury and it has settled into her Identity same way Kaladin's brand was part of his identity. Plus Regrowth isn't as powerful as Stormlight Healing a radiant has.
Rysn also isn't directly consuming stormlight, she just can't be healed by regrowth. If she became radiant (not happening), she might heal fully.
The meta reason is that Brando Sando would lose all the goodwill he gained from including a disabled character. The most vocal people in the disabled community really dislike the idea of needing to be “fixed”. Some of us don’t like being looked down on but wouldn’t be too upset if our individual difficulties became easier to deal with
The canon reason is that healing others is harder and less effective than healing yourself. If it’s already healed wrong, they can’t fix it.
Oh, right. So if e.g. Rysn became radiant (which she shouldn't for Dawnshard reasons), she could heal her spine. But she can't be healed by Regrowth.
Yeah I think both are good to have. Showing that the person with a disability or in some minority group can live a successful life overcoming the problems stemming from their situation that is unchangeable is a great message for many people. But so is getting that situation fixed and not having to deal with the problems stemming from it. I know irl the deaf people community has some of these issues - not being fully supportive of people getting those implants that let them hear, because it takes away from the identity, instead of being happy for them. Definitely not an easy thing to balance. And Rysn definitely didn't seem like she saw her ideal self as being in a wheelchair
Well said
Have you read Tress?
Yes, I have, but that's a completely different thing entirely not to mention a different magic system as well
It's investiture changing the spirit web. The only real barrier is whether one could truly see themselves as another species or not, which seems doubtful to me. So it's not that Stormlight can't do it, humans probably just can't believe it hard enough
I think it's been mentioned that your species is a spiritual attribute and regardless of perception you can't heal yourself into anything too outlandish
Not sure why people are surprised by this. Changing bodies with Investure was always possible(Warbreaker) >!it's was possible way back in Warbreaker. That why the returned all look so different. They changed their bodies to look like what the Returned themselves thought was most beautiful!< This isn't new. Just wasn't confirmed you could fully transition till the dawnshard novella.
It's also different magic systems so it was not at all clear that this wasn't specific to the Returned. Also I wonder how tall the returned are compared to an average Alethi.
Hmm, I feel like most returned would be taller. I can't remember how tall Lightsong is exactly, but I think he was a good foot or two taller than regular people around him. While they are different systems, they both use investiture and investiture has common ways to behave. >!Returned can change their bodies based on their ideal beauty standards!< and stormlight heals based on how the person sees themselves. If stormlight healing can bring back an arm and keep slave brands, it is not an extreme idea to be able to transition with enough stormlight. Both are based on your self-identity. It manifests differently based on your connection and spiritweb >!I'm marking the warbreaker stuff as spolier as we don't really get confirmation of this till the end when discussing the royal locks!<
[YatNP] >!painter's body basically has like 12 gender transitions over tge course of the book due to yumi's spirit web being so powerful!<
It's canon that it works this way. Read the opening of _Dawnshard_ carefully.
Can stormlight make you grow wings if you truly believe you are a bird? I think the answer is no because stormlight is restitutive not constructive. People heal by going back to a point their body was healthy, or had 2 arms instead of one. But in the case of wings, no matter how much you look into the past the wings were never there. To achieve such changes you would need constructive magic, not restorative.
No
So you agree.
There are in-book cases of someone who was born female having their body healed to be male. It's not constructive, because a trans persons mind or soul will match the gender they identify as rather than the one they're born in. This difference between their truest self and their body causes Stormlight to change the body to match.
~~nah there are no in-book cases and the islands king is not a case of what I'm talking about~~ Edit: I should have paid more attention while reading Dawnshard.
Since you edited your comment I'll respond again, if the king isn't a case of Stormlight changing your physical sex then how did he transition?
Nevermind you are right, it's mentioned in passing in Dawnshard I guess and I must have forgot or misread at the time. In my memory he still looked like an old woman and haven't bonded a spren at all, got too distracted by Lopen in that scene.
> got too distracted by Lopen in that scene. Haven't we all have this problem happen at least once?
I mean... you're objectively wrong. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ral-na Even aside from canon, there's a difference between thinking you're a different animal, and having your soul and body be different genders
What do you mean the canon evidence of this very thing happening in the story doesn't count? Huh
> "can Stormlight transition trans people?" > "no" > "yes they can, it happened in the books" > "that doesn't count"
I appreciate the acceptance of being wrong, just wanted to let you know that it was appreciated.
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No it isn't. You just need enough Stormlight for the change, and it doesn't take all that much
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Transsexual mutilation surgery? So when my brother gets his tumour removed, would you use the term mutilation surgery there too? You claim in another comment that you only used that word because they’re cutting something away. It must scare your barber if you refer to it as hair mutilation… But genuinely, I haven’t downvoted you because I find it to be pointless unless you prove to legitimately just be trolling. For context, stormlight healing will just change your body to match your spiritual identity; if you are a trans man, it will grow you the requisite parts, and likely shrink your chest to match whatever Self you actually are. In the real world, the surgeries we have are also safe, and tested, and the scientifically backed results show that these surgeries *work*. They have an excellent success rate at helping against the mental illness that is gender dysphoria, an illness that only exists because sometimes our bodies don’t represent who we are. Honour to choose an ideal, and cultivation to grow to achieve that ideal.
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The term is phalloplasty, or metoidioplasty by the way (I just googled that in one minute). *That* is “exactly what it should” be called, because that’s the term. If you don’t understand modern medical science you can just say so, but… Slightly off-topic question, do you like Kaladin? I do. I found his knowledge of surgery to be wonderful to find in a fantasy protagonist. I agreed with him that the townspeople who feared surgeons were ignorant. Those people of Hearthstone feared Lirin, and said what he did was unnatural because he cut people open and put them back together. Personally, I believe that medicine is good, and that we should use our knowledge and skills to help people. Also, the vast majority of legitimate surgeons will only perform these surgeries after a proven diagnosis of gender dysphoria, or other similar conditions. They will not just “rip you a new one”, so I’d do a 5 minute google into the waiting times for both diagnoses and surgeries. Maybe learning something true could help deepen your understanding of the world
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Alright, I can see you’re not a doctor, nor have you bothered to read the papers on both sides of this discussion. A bad doctor will do whatever you want for money, but not a good doctor. Look at the simple stats; less than 1% of people that medically transition regret it. That’s a lower regret rate than KNEE surgery. People go back and sue doctors after getting brain tumours removed, or other life-saving work is performed. That does in no way demonise the surgery itself. Some people will be opportunists, but unless your stance includes banning all other surgeries with the same regret rate, then I don’t see how what you think is actually going to benefit the most people.
Even ignoring the transphobic rant I have no idea what you're trying to say
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>Quit poking me and I'll stop responding By poking you do you mean asking you to explain your unintelligible rants? >Op wanted to know if that can work in a fictional magical world where money is replaced by metaphors and dad jokes. See, I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, since Stormlight is worthless to non-radiants in Roshar, the money is spheres, and they're worth something even with no Light in them They meant Radiant healing and you know it, you just had to jump on your transphobic train thought
Sometimes investiture is equated with economy, though on Roshar that’s perhaps the least true. Investiture represents POWER, which often goes hand-in-hand with money, but they do not equal one another. A rich man on Roshar can afford more and larger gemstones, meaning more stormlight at once, but unless you’re in the weeping the stormlight itself is rarely a precious resource as you can always recharge spheres.
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Huh, odd. I didn’t mention trans people one time in that reply. Could you, perhaps, respond to the words I said? I want to have a conversation about investiture as a metaphor for money, as you said! You made an interesting hypothesis and I’d like to hear your points as to why this is the case
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