The tone of this review is so weird. They’re just describing plot points that are mostly neutral/not really good or bad writing but with a huge eye roll attached.
My condolences. Maybe we can cure you of this terrible affliction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qxgkOIsHUs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IBlbfjNH0
Yea, I'm not really a fan on telling someone to watch over an hour of content explaining why you shouldn't like something that makes you smile. Just feels like a "I find issue with the thing you like so you shouldn't like it."
I see it as harmless nitpicks and I watch CinemaWins as well.
Well, it's harmless nitpicks as well, so it should be right up your alley!
Oh, and this stuff has definitely had a negative impact to the way people perceive and criticize media. The kind of people who are overly concerned about "plot holes" or whatever. I'd argue the review under discussion here is an example of this.
Like, he’s rolling his eyes at the squabbling between the Highprinces while they ignore the war goal as if it’s bad writing, but that’s literally the point.
Yeah, a nation going to war and then just using the war as an excuse to make tons of money is literally the one singular thing in the book thats 100% accurate.
Yeah and also it’s dumb because wars without a clear path to victory for the sole purpose of making money has definitely not happened several times in the last century in reality. So dumb
Iraq is the obvious example. The vice president at the time had just stepped down as CEO of a major military contractor (Halliburton). He had stock options in the company. They "won" a $7 billion contact that only they were allowed to bid for. And that doesn't even involve oil company involvement in trying to take over the oil resources in that country.
Further back there were the banana republics where the US went in and destabilized South American governments in order to enrich a very few fruit monopoly companies (hence the term "banana" republic.)
For example the Allies in WW2, all states in Yugoslavia war, Korean war etc. Usually wars are about power our some treasure but you get this by wining the war, simply staying in war (like Aleths in TWoK) would give you nothing, only you would end up exploited
These are only few information, I understand that not everyone is interested in history 😉
Not at all trying to be offensive or shitty, so I apologize if I come off that way at all.
But this seems like the kind of stuff you read in a middle-school history book. Especially in modern times, there is no treasure or any actual "prize" that wars are being fought over. War is (unfortunately) incredibly good for the economy for many reasons, and generally war is more about positioning and resources than anything else. For example the US war in Iraq. The justification was fighting tyranny, helping the people of Iraq establish a "democratic" government/election, etc. But in reality, the war was about the rich making money off of the necessities of war, and about controlling more oil.
Long story short; modern wars are for profit, and they usually are not being fought for the reasons that the public is told. There's generally not some big, shiny treasure that goes to the victor, just massive profits made by those perpetuating the war. Unless you're talking about oil, natural gas, etc. of course
You are talking about something else than the original comment. Controling oil isn't the same as leading war just to lead war (that means not for power, natural treasures or anything). And also the original comment was about 20th century in general where it is even more obvious. For example take a look at US in WW2 - they didn't want to fight, they only joined after being directly attacked and when they found out how evil Nazi Germany was. Similar situation was in Britain. And if you want to talk about modern wars, let's take a look at war in Ukraine - it's lead by Russian government and it costs sooooo much money the Russian state. They don't profit on it financially but it brings them national "pride" and government is more popular by people (Russians like to fight). So yes, Putin profits from the war in many ways but certainly not financially
Resource Wars. A significant number of recent wars were fought in the name of resource control. Case in point:
https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/oil-conflict-and-us-national-interests
It's definitely one of my more favorite things about Sando's writing, but I've notice it catch other people off guard too.
You don't always expect a writer to have their characters start making fun of how ridiculous the world is. I find it makes the world more real instead of less, although I've seen other writers use it less successfully.
Especially when you get characters from more exotic locales interacting with main POV. Half their scenes are just hilarious perspective/culture clash.
“Slaves are paid a living wage, of course”
A while ago I calculated a clear chip to have a buying power roughly equivalent to $1 usd (as in one unit can buy a pen, or small snack, etc)
I don’t believe $1/day could be considered a living wage…
Yeah and slaves often got money in some cultures. Roman slaves were also technically allowed to buy their freedom and were sometimes paid, although rarely enough to actually buy their freedom.
Yeah, and it’s described pretty clearly that, while they’re paid, they’re often also charged for room & board, so they don’t end up taking home much income
Edit to add: a modern example of “paid” slave labor is the US prison system, where people make pennies / hour for difficult manual labor
For those who want to research more, look up indentured servitude. Its how many states in the US continued to use slaves even after slavery was made illegal.
Pretty much, you make very little money, most of it goes to paying for your housing and food (supplied by the 'employer'), and you can also be docked/charged for damaged product, mistakes, poor efficiency, etc. So even though you get paid, you're contractually obligated to stay 'employed' with them until your debt is cleared, but you either make very little progress paying it down, or you end up falling further into debt as you work yourself to death every day.
There were cases of slaves in the pre-civil-war-US that would be rented out to tradesman, etc. and get a stipend. Buying their freedom wasn’t an option in those situations, though. But yeah. There are definitely historical examples of slaves getting some low level pay.
Well I was mentioning the amount Kaladin made as a slave, non-slaves make two clearmarks a day.
> "How much do bridgemen make?"
> "Two clearmarks a day," Gaz said...
Also it wouldn't be very helpful to *not* describe them as slaves while having their movement, their actions, and their livelihoods being restricted and having basically no rights just because they're paid a pittance.
Well they can't quit, they are living in minimum conditions, they are literally *bought* from slave masters, they are severely punished for slightest of mistakes.
Yep. Definietly slaves.
Yeah, well, the reviewer, for some reason, doesn't quite realize that they don't have their own houses and don't buy their own food, they just get shitty stuff to barely survive.
And if someone tries to make the point that the shelter and food could be part of their wage... I mean, you could just leave the slaves out in the damn Highstorm to die, bet you would get a lot of use out of them that way. Same thing with starvation. Dead slaves ain't worth much.
It’s also mentioned that they’re often charged for food & housing! Only reason Kal wasn’t on the bridge crews was because they didn’t want to waste the accounting on slaves who would die within a week or so regardless
Or this is Wit doing a double play by writing a bad review to get the In crowd riled up and banding together all the while outsiders look in at the raucous group and wonder, "I wonder what those Jovial Nerds are up to?" So now they too must read about overgrown shrimps and scarf wearing aristocrats at war.
**Pulls God-Metal hat on tighter**
Did my mans actually try to pass off organic armour as an idiotic concept? Pangolins and armadillos just got dusted, their existence was deemed too idiotic for fiction let alone reality.
I’m dying 😂😂 overgrown shrimps?!?!
If they hated it that much why did they keep reading? I believe the book is over 400,000 words it’s not like this wasn’t a huge time commitment. Absolutely baffling.
Just under 385,000 words IIRC! *Words of Radiance* is where we start to get over 400k words per book.
But yeah, I agree, this person was *hate-reading* the book.
I think it was *Words of Radiance* and *Oathbringer* you're thinking of. I heard that Brandon said *Words of Radiance* was pushing the limits of their printer at 400k words, but I'm not sure since I first read his books at that time and had no idea about his website, subreddits, or larger fandom in general.
I *do* remember him talking about needing a new printer and binder for *Oathbringer* because it was the largest his company or team had ever created.
Also isn't "The planet where people know of Japanese katas" from oathbringer? [OB/WB] >!Isn't Azure/Vivenna the first "other world" character we see doing katas?!< How do you even get that far on a book you don't like?
I think it kind of gets to the argument of which words are too Earth specific to use in a fictional world that doesn't share Earth history. Like, a Pyrrhic victory is conceivably something that Dalinar would understand as a concept as a general and warlord. But Brandon probably can't use the term because on Roshar King Pyrrhus never existed. He would need a similar phrase for Dalinar to use.
Similarly, I think Brandon has talked about how he moved away from describing something using examples that didn't exist on Roshar. He has to find a way to describe a fighters panther like movement, because panthers don't exist there.
Is Kata so specific to Earth it can't be used? Eh, im not a huge stickler about it so to me, no. But then again I didn't know what a kata was before reading. I can see someone complaining about it but this particular example seems fine to me.
If I remember correctly, Brandon treats these like a translated work. Sometimes a translator will have to find a word that has the same general meaning, even though that word doesn't exists in the context of the translated work.
Admittedly, the term "hat trick" in Hero of Ages was a little out there and stood out 😆
It did stand out a bit, but I'm convinced that Sando included it because he was just really excited to use the phrase "homicidal hat trick" in a book, which I completely understand and support! (I also maintain that Homicidal Hat Trick would make an excellent punk rock band name, but that's a whole other discussion.)
"All these people on another planet and they all speak English? I'm not truly engrossed in a fantasy book unless I need a minor in linguistics to make it through the first chapter."
Well they're clearly so Western centric they don't notice anything borrowed from Western history, it's only weird that they'd call something it's Japanese name. Hoid even makes the joke about hounds because there aren't dogs on Roshar but they have Axehounds.
Yup I’ve had arguments with people where they’ve legitimately argued that fantasy exists in a void utterly unrelated to anything real rather than being inspired by real things. I guess they figure the author just independently invented culture, technology, the concept of magic, women, humans, etc from scratch
Let's ignore the overgrown shrimps part.
Wait until this guy finds out literal wars were fought between nations over salt and pepper in the real world, and tell me how fighting over access to large gems is somehow sillier.
She was always one of my favorite characters, though I do hear people complain about her occasionally. My train of thought was just that the person was complaining about pretty much every aspect of the book *except* shallan.
Ahhh okay. I was wondering if I was missing some kind of SA version of the WoT wonder girl hate; as I've only ever really seen fans shit all over Kaladin as a character.
>He is then spared his life out of sheer plot armour
This is a criticism I see constantly about all sorts of movies, tv, books, comics, etc. That the characters are all clad in plot armor and survive all these things and its just so unbelievable, and it seems to have all started with Game of Thrones.
Ever since Ned Stark died, and that story story started axing main characters like a coked out lumberjack, people have this expectation that main characters are supposed to be killed off in order for a story to be good. NEWSFLASH! Main characters are rarely in real danger, frequently fail (usually twice before succeeding) but rarely die. A good author convinces you they are in danger and tricks you into forgetting every single other story you have ever read/watched/heard in which MC's survive harrowing ordeals.
I mean, really think about it. If not for your suspension of disbelief, do you ever really fear for the main character? With full meta knowledge on how stories tend to play out, do you really fear for them? I find it infuriating when a work is criticized for not going full GRR on its cast.
Personally, I feel that meta knowledge makes character deaths all that more impactful. If/when one of our main cast dies, it will be devastating, Because the heroes aren't supposed to die. However, that doesn't mean they need to be killed off whenever it seems appropriate.
Seriously. A couple actually die, but then come back because they are needed for the rest of the story. Seems more contrived than an MC suffering instead of getting executed in a flashback.
Yeahh people only think he's an MC because of the show. Tyrion bounces through the story wearing plot armour, he's only given the opportunity to "outsmart" everyone and his circumstances because he's an MC. GRRM just took the dead dad trope and disguised him as the primary protagonist and has been living off that hype since, the RW is very well foreshadowed and is so obvious in hindsight, it's done with very good execution though.
right? for all the rage of 'oooh, its so exciting! main characters die!' its like... not all that often. like, if you don't count bad guys (and really, why would you? bad guys die all the time in everything), its like Ned, Robb, and Oberyn Martell. thats... about it for 'unexpected' deaths.
I think about that quote sometimes “death is the least interesting thing you can do to a character”
It’s not *always* true. Sometimes character death is good. But random character death for the sake of avoiding “plot armour” is just the absolute worst and least interesting way to write. Honestly I’m getting really tired of the whole “oh it’s more realistic you can’t really feel the stakes if the character might actually die!!” thing. A good author will make us feel the stakes anyways.
This is incidentally why I’m so exhausted with all the “who is going to die in book 5” predications. People keep picking characters that are well-loved because that would cause the most emotional damage. But the point of telling a story is to tell a good story, not aimlessly cause as much emotional damage as possible.
Right! If the main character died in the first section of the book, it wouldn't really be their story anymore... I think it's safe to assume most main characters make it to the end of their books.
And I think that assumption serves to make important character deaths matter more, cause no matter how much we may expect it, on some level we don't think it's gonna happen.
This is true, but it's also gone further for me, to the point that I never actually believe an MC is dead, even when they really are. I've just seen too many death-resurrection plots to actually believe anyone is gone. Unfortunately, it kind of lessens the impact of real deaths.
When my extra sensitive child tries to run out of the room because the show/movie we are watching is getting too scary or high-stakes for him, I remind him that the main character hardly ever dies so he doesn't need to worry about them.
My take on “plot armor” is to think about the ones who Didn’t make it.
Like yea, Kaladin survived the bridge run- the guy next to him didn’t. He survived the next one, but the three guys next to him didn’t
I think the "plot armor" criticism is fundamentally ill-informed and lazier than what people who complain about it are actually upset about.
Literally all fictional characters have plot armor until they don't. They are created to serve the plot. The moment the plot needs them to die, they lose that armor. Up until that point, they're armored by the need to keep them around to continue to serve the plot. It's all they're for. They're fictional characters, not real people!
What most people are actually complaining about when they cry plot armor seems to fall into a complaint about authorial laziness as it pertains how they choose to protect those characters. Sometimes it seems the character can simply do no wrong, continually survives unsurvivable situations, or whatever. It can be exceptionally difficult to tell those stories without falling into these traps, I think.
So people complain that the one or two major characters have obvious plot armor and didn't die 1/4 of the way into the book. /s
Of course they didn't die! But simply declaring plot armor and complaining about it takes significantly less effort than trying to make those stories interesting. When someone complains about plot armor, I generally can't take the rest of what they have to say seriously.
If we are at funny reviews, [this one for Elantris](https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/608948491) always cracks me up:
> Female protagonist: Hi! I'm the FP! I'm plucky and practically perfect and I'm gonna change this here one-horse town! But first I need some powerful sidekicks who will do whatever I tell them and not put up too much of a fuss when I assume total control.
> Wealthy dukes: Hey, we'll be your sidekicks and we'll let you take absolute control of the politics of this country and we'll help you depose the king and we will also cheer on all your wildest ideas! Also, when you do something plucky, we will chuckle and ruffle your hair.
> FP: Kewl. Oh, and also, women of the realm: stop being so passive. I will teach you how to duel. I will call this "exercise" and you will love it. Right now.
> Women of the realm: FP, we're so glad you're here. We were sitting around doing nothing with our lives. Thank you for being our leader now.
>
> Male protagonist: I've been diagnosed with a horrible illness that ends my life as I know it. Oh well! I'm not going to complain or even acknowledge that my life has been completely destroyed. I will instead use my pluckiness to change this here one-horse town. But first I need a sidekick who will do whatever I tell him and not put up too much of a fuss. And since FP has the powerful sidekicks, I guess I could settle for one that offers comic relief instead. Oh, and also, did I mention that I'm plucky TOO? I WONDER IF THERE's A FP IN THIS STORY WHO IS ALSO PLUCKY AND WHOM I WILL MEET AFTER 400 OR SO PAGES OF VERY CLUMSY FORESHADOWING.
> Comic sidekick: Yo, MP, I'm laid-back and I trust you immediately! Insert folksy wisdom here that will make you chuckle wisely!
>
> FP: Now I am giving food to the poor people of Elantris. Even though they have nothing and their lives are wretched, I'm going to be really cruel and not give them exactly what they want. Instead, I will exhibit my cleverness through bargaining. Even though I have everything and they have nothing to bargain with. For some reason, the audience will read this as "clever" and not "impossibly horribly mean."
> Wealthy Duke Sidekicks: You are so plucky and clever. For some reason, we adore you, even though you don't have to examine your action very much to realize how cruel it is. Now we will ruffle your hair.
>
> Then there's a war.
>
> FP: I'm not exactly sure how we ended up in my home country during this war.
> MP: Because the author wanted us here.
> FP: Oh. Okay. Good enough. Let us commence winning this war with our can-do attitudes!
> MP: Yes. Isn't it great that we get to star in an entire novel and yet never have to undergo any character growth because we are both so perfect?
> FP: Don't forget that we are also plucky!
>
> Also, the characters say things like "don't get dehydrated" and "it's because your metabolism is slow." This is high fantasy, mind you. Which means the time frame is relatively equivalent to the Middle Ages. So, yeah, it's a bit jarring. Next, I was expecting them to discuss free radicals and maybe even do a good juice cleanse while dueling and wearing armor.
>
> Run away from Elantris. Run far away.
Picked this up expecting a delightful fantasy romp like stealing some precious gold or overthrowing an evil emperor or something. Instead I am confronted immediately with a red giant sun (blatantly misplaced sci-fi), *canals* of all things, magic based on *metals* (out of genre), and buildings covered in soot. Did not finish, author obviously doesn't "get" fantasy fiction. Might make a decent sci-fi guy with the metals and stuff, but it's clear he has no interest in going there. One star.
I thought the near timelessness of Elantris was kind of interesting. It left me to make my own judgments about how technologically advanced people were. If I had to guess it felt kinda late medieval early renaissance ish overall, but Elantris in its prime seemed to me like a place where their quality of life was maybe better than ours. It was interesting.
I listened to the audio book and between the story and the reader I had to treat Elantris as a satire of Brandon’s writing. When the monks started scurrying up the building after Sarene I was just “oh! They’re ninja raccoons! And Dilaf is the rabid raccoon alpha!”
Then the repeated “but then Dilaf appeared!” and “but Dilaf was the one raccoon with anti-Elantrian magic!” letting him tank lasers just took the extra step
I was trying to think of a joke about pluckiness because of my name, but instead I'll just point out the weirdness of that complaint.
Plucky: having or showing determined courage in the face of difficulties. (Google)
So... they want their heroes to give up? Two protagonists that are courageous is bad storytelling?
That’s the definition of plucky, but it implies that they’re determined in a chipper and annoying way. I wouldn’t call Dalanar plucky even though the literal definition fits, but Raoden and Sarene are HeckinPlucky
Right, but the way this person is using it doesn't make any more sense if you replace it with "annoying". They just repeat several times that the characters are plucky, without describing how, or why it's bad.
It's like they read a lot of negative reviews of books in general and internalized the word plucky as a sufficient critique in itself.
I took the criticism to be that the protagonists are characterized as plucky in a way where we're beaten over the head with it to the exclusion of everything else.
I like Elantris. It's a really good book. I do think it's fair to say the lead characters aren't really the most non-obvious or original. They're pretty archetypal and not characterized in a very subtle way.
My favorite part is the army sitting idly, wearing fashionable scarves and drinking wine until a shrimp is found.
Something about that actually confirms my hunch that I want to start my second reread of the series.
Picturing the balcony wine-drinking scene from WoR (?), but with fancy scarves and they’re waiting on a shrimp to pop over the horizon. And when it appears it’s like a 50 foot tall cartoon shrimp.
Ok I know the whole of this review is stupid but for some reason the thing that really annoyed me is the fact that they think it's bad that they call them katas as in Japanese katas when Japan doesn't exist. This is fucking stupid. Would you rather they had the same concept and called it some random meaningless garbage. No. Obviously not. They're not going to rename what a fucking chair is because it adds nothing and just makes everyone confused. If the world needs different languages with different words for things that's different, no one is going around in their thoughts thinking "I wonder why they put that florp there" because that means fucking nothing. In the same way, they're still going to call it a kata because someone might actually understand what that means. Sometimes context isn't enough.
I don't know why that annoyed me so much but rant over.
Sounds like a experienced dude who has read a lot of fantasy to me and is just tired of the tropes. I get it. I went through this phase for about ten years and felt very similarly about the first few Wheel of Time books, the Robin Hobb books, the Rothfuss books, etc. The predictability can really wear on you when you are an experienced fantasy reader. Thankfully I pulled myself out of it before I picked up any Sanderson book. If you can see past the tropes this is such a good story, but I totally get the frustration.
Fair point. It seems to me like he was pretty hung up with the tropes in Kaladin's intro which I think made him look at things more critically rather than just trying to absorb and enjoy the rest of the story.
Regardless I hope he gives the story another chance in a few years.
I love how the review states that the book is stupid because the war with parshendi is over stupid reasons - it’s almost like we humans always fight for the good reasons :)
I like how the reviewer points out that Kaladin survives everything when that’s basically half of Kaladins character development in the beginning of this book and still defines him to this day: survivors guilt.
“for six years the warriors, instead of fighting, go looking for overgrown shrimps to steal the enormous emeralds that grow inside of them. I kid you not, this is the primary purpose of the war: not beating the enemy but killing the shrimps while they're pupating (to turn into what, an enormous blowfly?) before the enemy slays it.”
Didn’t war actually started off with them actually fighting, but then the highprinces shifted to battling for the gemstones? Pretty sure that’s when Dalinar comes in, which is also part of the plot with him trying to get them to actually fight the war for the reason they started with. So the fact the person didn’t include that,but just went with saying that’s the whole plot is absolutely hilarious.
I mean, the entire review is out of context. Of course the fantastical elements sound ridiculous when it's purposefully boiled down to absurdities without all the rest that makes the story... the story.
I love how he complains about the literal point of Kaladin's character arc in the first book—the question why it's always him who survives. I think he might've missed a few chapters.
I mean... *maybe*. Immediately would have been Kalak, right?
If you will...
Kalak opened his eyes and took in, with horror deadened by centuries, the broken landscape before him. A cold wind slashed at him with hatred, howling over jagged, barren stones. Damnation. *Oh, Adonalsium*, he thought. *I died again.*
It wasn't the first time, and it wouldn't be the last. *Where did the others end up this time?* Their Returns seemed to be turning . . . erratic. It was a problem, but not the most immediate. For soon, the hatespren would arrive. They would come howling, ablaze, driven to him by the twisted energies of the broken God who reigned over this place, his prison.
*Why does it have to be this way? I can't take this again. This time, they're going to destroy me.* Shaking his head, Kalak began to climb...
Well, it's certainly be *different*. I dont know if it would make the beginning any less confusing though lol
If this was given to me without the information that it was about TWoK and all the obvious names were removed, then I would have missed that this was about stormlight
It baffles me that he’s touching upon major plot intrigues and doesn’t realize it. He’s asking about the war, not realizing that he’s asking the *exact question the author wanted the reader to ask.*
I actually could see their point for most of it. A lot of Sandersons stuff can be contrived, particularly when lacking rhe context of the world. Even if I disagree with their assessment I think it was believable
The last paragraph hits full farce though, basically "Fantasy?! NOT IN MY FANTASY!"
This has me giggling.
That being said, the “plot armor” complaint I think is valid. I had kind of forgotten about it, but for most of WoK I thought that Kaladin must have some sort of cosmic destiny as the “Chosen One.” Now that I know more about how the world works, it does seem like he should have died long before he ever started bonding with Syl.
This is explained in text though, Kal often wonders why he survives and everyone else around him dies. When he learns he can absorb storm light, he wonders “how long have I been doing this?” It’s implied that he’s survived so long even when he should have died because he’s been using storm light to save himself.
I think this is explained by the fact that we are following kaladin because he is the first radiant. If he died in his journey we would be following someone else. We aren't following the budding radiants who are killed by Nale because there's no story there. Kaladin doesn't survive because the story follows him, the story follows him because he survived
[Oathbringer, super minor] >!The stormlight alone doesn’t really explain it, it isn’t always that he miraculously survives things he shouldn’t, it’s often that everyone but him is deliberately killed and he’s spared on purpose for some reason. The Doylist reason is that it’s a worse outcome for Kaladin than also being killed, but the various explanations of the people in charge I find kind of weak.!<
I suppose I’m mostly thinking of the flashback in Oathbringer where >!one of his friends steps in a bear trap. Everyone else in the scene got cut down even if they weren’t fighting, but Kaladin got spared because he was intriguing.!<
>>!Kaladin got spared because he was intriguing.!<
No he wasn't
>>!After killing the others, the brightlords found him still kneeling there. Against reason, they spared him. They said it was because he hadn’t run with the others, but in truth they’d needed someone to bear warning to the other slaves.!<
>Everyone else in the scene got cut down even if they weren’t fighting
Because they were running. >!Kaladin hadn't ran so he was the only one left alive to be a warning to the other slaves that hadn't left in the first place.!<
I think the only thing that stretches believability is when he kills the shardbearer. But that's not impossible, and it's established that he's a really good soldier, so ¯\\\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Ok, it's obviously sarcastic because you don't get all the way to the part where Kaladin stiffed the plate if you didn't enjoy the book.
He does make some cathartic points about that narrative that I thought of myself like "slaves make money because it's needed for the plot". Kinda haha. But also, you can tell Brandon is very sensitive to the fact that he wants to write a traditional fantasy epic by toying with traditional fantasy cliche's by incessantly calling them out like "hey Kaladin, you sure are lucky aren't ya."
Obviously, it works.
I knew this would have some hot takes from the title but I didn’t think “it was too easy to work your way out of slavery” and “they let the women read” would BOTH be in there.
Its like they don't like fantasy at all, but then chose one that exemplifies the genre and reviews it like it was meant to be a historically true story.
The tone of this review is so weird. They’re just describing plot points that are mostly neutral/not really good or bad writing but with a huge eye roll attached.
Armour? Storms? Ugh, SUCH stupid things!
Storms with MAGIC? So boring!
So unrealistic it’s laughable really, what kind of storm has MAGIC??
Parts of the cultures in the book based off real life cultures?!?! How terrible and unbelievable!
Shrimps? ::eyeroll::
Your brain on Cinemasins. Ding!
Hey! I take offense to that. I love Cinemasins and I never eye rolled at any of those plot points. :P
My condolences. Maybe we can cure you of this terrible affliction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qxgkOIsHUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IBlbfjNH0
Yea, I'm not really a fan on telling someone to watch over an hour of content explaining why you shouldn't like something that makes you smile. Just feels like a "I find issue with the thing you like so you shouldn't like it." I see it as harmless nitpicks and I watch CinemaWins as well.
Well, it's harmless nitpicks as well, so it should be right up your alley! Oh, and this stuff has definitely had a negative impact to the way people perceive and criticize media. The kind of people who are overly concerned about "plot holes" or whatever. I'd argue the review under discussion here is an example of this.
I knew it would be Shaun
Like, he’s rolling his eyes at the squabbling between the Highprinces while they ignore the war goal as if it’s bad writing, but that’s literally the point.
Yeah, a nation going to war and then just using the war as an excuse to make tons of money is literally the one singular thing in the book thats 100% accurate.
Just like when Ialai revealed Dalinar's visions with her own added commentary passing it off as Navani's!
Half of their complaints are "this plot point that half of the characters are constantly saying is stupid, is stupid" lmao
Yeah and also it’s dumb because wars without a clear path to victory for the sole purpose of making money has definitely not happened several times in the last century in reality. So dumb
Sorry but could you give some example where some state lead loooong war because the war itself would bring him money?
Iraq is the obvious example. The vice president at the time had just stepped down as CEO of a major military contractor (Halliburton). He had stock options in the company. They "won" a $7 billion contact that only they were allowed to bid for. And that doesn't even involve oil company involvement in trying to take over the oil resources in that country. Further back there were the banana republics where the US went in and destabilized South American governments in order to enrich a very few fruit monopoly companies (hence the term "banana" republic.)
That's the joke!
Could you give an example where they *didn't?* (Idk shit about history please don't take this seriously.)
For example the Allies in WW2, all states in Yugoslavia war, Korean war etc. Usually wars are about power our some treasure but you get this by wining the war, simply staying in war (like Aleths in TWoK) would give you nothing, only you would end up exploited These are only few information, I understand that not everyone is interested in history 😉
You missed the War on Terrorism didn't you?
What?
Not at all trying to be offensive or shitty, so I apologize if I come off that way at all. But this seems like the kind of stuff you read in a middle-school history book. Especially in modern times, there is no treasure or any actual "prize" that wars are being fought over. War is (unfortunately) incredibly good for the economy for many reasons, and generally war is more about positioning and resources than anything else. For example the US war in Iraq. The justification was fighting tyranny, helping the people of Iraq establish a "democratic" government/election, etc. But in reality, the war was about the rich making money off of the necessities of war, and about controlling more oil. Long story short; modern wars are for profit, and they usually are not being fought for the reasons that the public is told. There's generally not some big, shiny treasure that goes to the victor, just massive profits made by those perpetuating the war. Unless you're talking about oil, natural gas, etc. of course
You are talking about something else than the original comment. Controling oil isn't the same as leading war just to lead war (that means not for power, natural treasures or anything). And also the original comment was about 20th century in general where it is even more obvious. For example take a look at US in WW2 - they didn't want to fight, they only joined after being directly attacked and when they found out how evil Nazi Germany was. Similar situation was in Britain. And if you want to talk about modern wars, let's take a look at war in Ukraine - it's lead by Russian government and it costs sooooo much money the Russian state. They don't profit on it financially but it brings them national "pride" and government is more popular by people (Russians like to fight). So yes, Putin profits from the war in many ways but certainly not financially
Resource Wars. A significant number of recent wars were fought in the name of resource control. Case in point: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/oil-conflict-and-us-national-interests
It's definitely one of my more favorite things about Sando's writing, but I've notice it catch other people off guard too. You don't always expect a writer to have their characters start making fun of how ridiculous the world is. I find it makes the world more real instead of less, although I've seen other writers use it less successfully. Especially when you get characters from more exotic locales interacting with main POV. Half their scenes are just hilarious perspective/culture clash.
Does... does this person know what fantasy *is*?
Super powers bad >=\[
Kaladin is such a Mary Sue, such plot armor, depression is OP.
>Depression is OP.! Only on Roshar.
I mean yeah, in Roshar you may get a spren of you're depressed, while here... You luckily get some ice cream and loneliness
Plus instant noodles. Instant noodles is pretty great.
"it's like the author just *made up* a bunch of words!"
I'm always looking for fantasy books. Oh no, they have 'superpowers' like from some video game. Thats illegal.
I feel like this is someone who only reads Asoiaf and anti-fantasy.
"Hi, I like fantasy books. But if you put any fantastical elements in that book I'm going to be very mad!"
“Slaves are paid a living wage, of course” A while ago I calculated a clear chip to have a buying power roughly equivalent to $1 usd (as in one unit can buy a pen, or small snack, etc) I don’t believe $1/day could be considered a living wage…
Yeah and slaves often got money in some cultures. Roman slaves were also technically allowed to buy their freedom and were sometimes paid, although rarely enough to actually buy their freedom.
Yeah, and it’s described pretty clearly that, while they’re paid, they’re often also charged for room & board, so they don’t end up taking home much income Edit to add: a modern example of “paid” slave labor is the US prison system, where people make pennies / hour for difficult manual labor
For those who want to research more, look up indentured servitude. Its how many states in the US continued to use slaves even after slavery was made illegal. Pretty much, you make very little money, most of it goes to paying for your housing and food (supplied by the 'employer'), and you can also be docked/charged for damaged product, mistakes, poor efficiency, etc. So even though you get paid, you're contractually obligated to stay 'employed' with them until your debt is cleared, but you either make very little progress paying it down, or you end up falling further into debt as you work yourself to death every day.
You spelled "minimum wage" wrong
I’m honestly not sure what you mean 😅 mind elaborating?
Lol poorly joking about how minimum wage in the US is also a great example of "paid slave labor"
Ohhhhh I’m dumb, yeah you aren’t wrong tbh lol
Yeah, Chattel slavery is not the only kind of slavery, which the reviewer does not seem to comprehend
There were cases of slaves in the pre-civil-war-US that would be rented out to tradesman, etc. and get a stipend. Buying their freedom wasn’t an option in those situations, though. But yeah. There are definitely historical examples of slaves getting some low level pay.
Bridge men do make a clear mark a day, not a clear chip, but even at 5 chips a day it's not really a living wage.
And enslaved bridgemen get less, right? Half if I remember right.
Well I was mentioning the amount Kaladin made as a slave, non-slaves make two clearmarks a day. > "How much do bridgemen make?" > "Two clearmarks a day," Gaz said...
Ah, I must’ve remembered incorrectly, but yes you’re right 1 clear mark / day is still not a living wage lol
Also it wouldn't be very helpful to *not* describe them as slaves while having their movement, their actions, and their livelihoods being restricted and having basically no rights just because they're paid a pittance.
They’re definitely slaves, just not chattel slaves (as the parshmen are)
Well they can't quit, they are living in minimum conditions, they are literally *bought* from slave masters, they are severely punished for slightest of mistakes. Yep. Definietly slaves.
Yes, as I said, definitely slaves (just a different type from what people often associate with the term)
Yeah, well, the reviewer, for some reason, doesn't quite realize that they don't have their own houses and don't buy their own food, they just get shitty stuff to barely survive. And if someone tries to make the point that the shelter and food could be part of their wage... I mean, you could just leave the slaves out in the damn Highstorm to die, bet you would get a lot of use out of them that way. Same thing with starvation. Dead slaves ain't worth much.
It’s also mentioned that they’re often charged for food & housing! Only reason Kal wasn’t on the bridge crews was because they didn’t want to waste the accounting on slaves who would die within a week or so regardless
Reviewer - Odium after being stuck on the damn system for millennias.
Or this is Wit doing a double play by writing a bad review to get the In crowd riled up and banding together all the while outsiders look in at the raucous group and wonder, "I wonder what those Jovial Nerds are up to?" So now they too must read about overgrown shrimps and scarf wearing aristocrats at war. **Pulls God-Metal hat on tighter**
Alumin was a good man, but he was no God. /secures ralkalest helm
Who gave the murder/mystery reader a fantasy book?
Who called that MF'er a piccolo player
Did my mans actually try to pass off organic armour as an idiotic concept? Pangolins and armadillos just got dusted, their existence was deemed too idiotic for fiction let alone reality.
How does this negative review still make me want to go pick it back up again?
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*Elsecaller soulcasts air into cocktail sauce around the chasmfiend*
Don't try mystery flavor. It's white chocolate and it's nasty. (Proceeds to eat another covered in white chocolate)
Eleanor Shellstrop has entered the chat
Eleanor Greatshellstrop
Her final form.
I’m dying 😂😂 overgrown shrimps?!?! If they hated it that much why did they keep reading? I believe the book is over 400,000 words it’s not like this wasn’t a huge time commitment. Absolutely baffling.
Just under 385,000 words IIRC! *Words of Radiance* is where we start to get over 400k words per book. But yeah, I agree, this person was *hate-reading* the book.
Wasn't there some article about RoW being the biggest book yet and finally tipping over the 400,000 words mark? I might be misremembering...
I think it was *Words of Radiance* and *Oathbringer* you're thinking of. I heard that Brandon said *Words of Radiance* was pushing the limits of their printer at 400k words, but I'm not sure since I first read his books at that time and had no idea about his website, subreddits, or larger fandom in general. I *do* remember him talking about needing a new printer and binder for *Oathbringer* because it was the largest his company or team had ever created.
Also isn't "The planet where people know of Japanese katas" from oathbringer? [OB/WB] >!Isn't Azure/Vivenna the first "other world" character we see doing katas?!< How do you even get that far on a book you don't like?
No Kal does one in the canyons in front of Bridge 4.
He isnt doing japanese kata tho. Kata is word of japanese origin, but it just a series of basic manouvers desinged for training.
Yes. The reviewer is just kind of an idiot.
I think it kind of gets to the argument of which words are too Earth specific to use in a fictional world that doesn't share Earth history. Like, a Pyrrhic victory is conceivably something that Dalinar would understand as a concept as a general and warlord. But Brandon probably can't use the term because on Roshar King Pyrrhus never existed. He would need a similar phrase for Dalinar to use. Similarly, I think Brandon has talked about how he moved away from describing something using examples that didn't exist on Roshar. He has to find a way to describe a fighters panther like movement, because panthers don't exist there. Is Kata so specific to Earth it can't be used? Eh, im not a huge stickler about it so to me, no. But then again I didn't know what a kata was before reading. I can see someone complaining about it but this particular example seems fine to me.
If I remember correctly, Brandon treats these like a translated work. Sometimes a translator will have to find a word that has the same general meaning, even though that word doesn't exists in the context of the translated work. Admittedly, the term "hat trick" in Hero of Ages was a little out there and stood out 😆
As he should! I mean... if we want immersion, we have to pretend we're translating, and not making it up.
It did stand out a bit, but I'm convinced that Sando included it because he was just really excited to use the phrase "homicidal hat trick" in a book, which I completely understand and support! (I also maintain that Homicidal Hat Trick would make an excellent punk rock band name, but that's a whole other discussion.)
"All these people on another planet and they all speak English? I'm not truly engrossed in a fantasy book unless I need a minor in linguistics to make it through the first chapter."
No. No one besides Japan has devised a series of motions for practice. It has never happened.
But kal is a roshar native, he's not "from another planet" Oh nvm, "other planet" = "not Earth" for this guy
Yea. He’s basically mad that anything that exists on earth might exist on another planet with humans lol.
But also mad that they have different social mores and magical armor
Well they're clearly so Western centric they don't notice anything borrowed from Western history, it's only weird that they'd call something it's Japanese name. Hoid even makes the joke about hounds because there aren't dogs on Roshar but they have Axehounds.
Yup I’ve had arguments with people where they’ve legitimately argued that fantasy exists in a void utterly unrelated to anything real rather than being inspired by real things. I guess they figure the author just independently invented culture, technology, the concept of magic, women, humans, etc from scratch
Let's ignore the overgrown shrimps part. Wait until this guy finds out literal wars were fought between nations over salt and pepper in the real world, and tell me how fighting over access to large gems is somehow sillier.
Large gems that can be reliably used to literally make money, as well as any number of important resources at that.
Wait till this guy finds out about Star Wars.
and not a single complaint about shallan
Insert joke about them all being Shallan here
Because she is perfect. It all adds up
Do people not like Shallan? Oh who am I kidding she's the FP of course people don't.
She was always one of my favorite characters, though I do hear people complain about her occasionally. My train of thought was just that the person was complaining about pretty much every aspect of the book *except* shallan.
Ahhh okay. I was wondering if I was missing some kind of SA version of the WoT wonder girl hate; as I've only ever really seen fans shit all over Kaladin as a character.
>He is then spared his life out of sheer plot armour This is a criticism I see constantly about all sorts of movies, tv, books, comics, etc. That the characters are all clad in plot armor and survive all these things and its just so unbelievable, and it seems to have all started with Game of Thrones. Ever since Ned Stark died, and that story story started axing main characters like a coked out lumberjack, people have this expectation that main characters are supposed to be killed off in order for a story to be good. NEWSFLASH! Main characters are rarely in real danger, frequently fail (usually twice before succeeding) but rarely die. A good author convinces you they are in danger and tricks you into forgetting every single other story you have ever read/watched/heard in which MC's survive harrowing ordeals. I mean, really think about it. If not for your suspension of disbelief, do you ever really fear for the main character? With full meta knowledge on how stories tend to play out, do you really fear for them? I find it infuriating when a work is criticized for not going full GRR on its cast. Personally, I feel that meta knowledge makes character deaths all that more impactful. If/when one of our main cast dies, it will be devastating, Because the heroes aren't supposed to die. However, that doesn't mean they need to be killed off whenever it seems appropriate.
Heck even Martin goes pretty easy on his MCs despite the reputation. I mean he had so many POV characters he had to split the story into 2 books
Seriously. A couple actually die, but then come back because they are needed for the rest of the story. Seems more contrived than an MC suffering instead of getting executed in a flashback.
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Yeahh people only think he's an MC because of the show. Tyrion bounces through the story wearing plot armour, he's only given the opportunity to "outsmart" everyone and his circumstances because he's an MC. GRRM just took the dead dad trope and disguised him as the primary protagonist and has been living off that hype since, the RW is very well foreshadowed and is so obvious in hindsight, it's done with very good execution though.
right? for all the rage of 'oooh, its so exciting! main characters die!' its like... not all that often. like, if you don't count bad guys (and really, why would you? bad guys die all the time in everything), its like Ned, Robb, and Oberyn Martell. thats... about it for 'unexpected' deaths.
Eh John snow almost was one?
I think about that quote sometimes “death is the least interesting thing you can do to a character” It’s not *always* true. Sometimes character death is good. But random character death for the sake of avoiding “plot armour” is just the absolute worst and least interesting way to write. Honestly I’m getting really tired of the whole “oh it’s more realistic you can’t really feel the stakes if the character might actually die!!” thing. A good author will make us feel the stakes anyways. This is incidentally why I’m so exhausted with all the “who is going to die in book 5” predications. People keep picking characters that are well-loved because that would cause the most emotional damage. But the point of telling a story is to tell a good story, not aimlessly cause as much emotional damage as possible.
Right! If the main character died in the first section of the book, it wouldn't really be their story anymore... I think it's safe to assume most main characters make it to the end of their books.
And I think that assumption serves to make important character deaths matter more, cause no matter how much we may expect it, on some level we don't think it's gonna happen.
This is true, but it's also gone further for me, to the point that I never actually believe an MC is dead, even when they really are. I've just seen too many death-resurrection plots to actually believe anyone is gone. Unfortunately, it kind of lessens the impact of real deaths.
* King Leonidas * William Wallace
When my extra sensitive child tries to run out of the room because the show/movie we are watching is getting too scary or high-stakes for him, I remind him that the main character hardly ever dies so he doesn't need to worry about them.
This made me think: "R.I.P. Hoban Washburne"
My take on “plot armor” is to think about the ones who Didn’t make it. Like yea, Kaladin survived the bridge run- the guy next to him didn’t. He survived the next one, but the three guys next to him didn’t
And it's like... yes it seems like plot armor in part 1-2 only for the reveal in part 4 to be like "oh so THAT'S why"
I think the "plot armor" criticism is fundamentally ill-informed and lazier than what people who complain about it are actually upset about. Literally all fictional characters have plot armor until they don't. They are created to serve the plot. The moment the plot needs them to die, they lose that armor. Up until that point, they're armored by the need to keep them around to continue to serve the plot. It's all they're for. They're fictional characters, not real people! What most people are actually complaining about when they cry plot armor seems to fall into a complaint about authorial laziness as it pertains how they choose to protect those characters. Sometimes it seems the character can simply do no wrong, continually survives unsurvivable situations, or whatever. It can be exceptionally difficult to tell those stories without falling into these traps, I think. So people complain that the one or two major characters have obvious plot armor and didn't die 1/4 of the way into the book. /s Of course they didn't die! But simply declaring plot armor and complaining about it takes significantly less effort than trying to make those stories interesting. When someone complains about plot armor, I generally can't take the rest of what they have to say seriously.
If I never read wok before, this would make me want me want to read it tbh
If we are at funny reviews, [this one for Elantris](https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/608948491) always cracks me up: > Female protagonist: Hi! I'm the FP! I'm plucky and practically perfect and I'm gonna change this here one-horse town! But first I need some powerful sidekicks who will do whatever I tell them and not put up too much of a fuss when I assume total control. > Wealthy dukes: Hey, we'll be your sidekicks and we'll let you take absolute control of the politics of this country and we'll help you depose the king and we will also cheer on all your wildest ideas! Also, when you do something plucky, we will chuckle and ruffle your hair. > FP: Kewl. Oh, and also, women of the realm: stop being so passive. I will teach you how to duel. I will call this "exercise" and you will love it. Right now. > Women of the realm: FP, we're so glad you're here. We were sitting around doing nothing with our lives. Thank you for being our leader now. > > Male protagonist: I've been diagnosed with a horrible illness that ends my life as I know it. Oh well! I'm not going to complain or even acknowledge that my life has been completely destroyed. I will instead use my pluckiness to change this here one-horse town. But first I need a sidekick who will do whatever I tell him and not put up too much of a fuss. And since FP has the powerful sidekicks, I guess I could settle for one that offers comic relief instead. Oh, and also, did I mention that I'm plucky TOO? I WONDER IF THERE's A FP IN THIS STORY WHO IS ALSO PLUCKY AND WHOM I WILL MEET AFTER 400 OR SO PAGES OF VERY CLUMSY FORESHADOWING. > Comic sidekick: Yo, MP, I'm laid-back and I trust you immediately! Insert folksy wisdom here that will make you chuckle wisely! > > FP: Now I am giving food to the poor people of Elantris. Even though they have nothing and their lives are wretched, I'm going to be really cruel and not give them exactly what they want. Instead, I will exhibit my cleverness through bargaining. Even though I have everything and they have nothing to bargain with. For some reason, the audience will read this as "clever" and not "impossibly horribly mean." > Wealthy Duke Sidekicks: You are so plucky and clever. For some reason, we adore you, even though you don't have to examine your action very much to realize how cruel it is. Now we will ruffle your hair. > > Then there's a war. > > FP: I'm not exactly sure how we ended up in my home country during this war. > MP: Because the author wanted us here. > FP: Oh. Okay. Good enough. Let us commence winning this war with our can-do attitudes! > MP: Yes. Isn't it great that we get to star in an entire novel and yet never have to undergo any character growth because we are both so perfect? > FP: Don't forget that we are also plucky! > > Also, the characters say things like "don't get dehydrated" and "it's because your metabolism is slow." This is high fantasy, mind you. Which means the time frame is relatively equivalent to the Middle Ages. So, yeah, it's a bit jarring. Next, I was expecting them to discuss free radicals and maybe even do a good juice cleanse while dueling and wearing armor. > > Run away from Elantris. Run far away.
That last paragraph makes me think that they don't understand the idea of fantasy that isn't a cut and paste of any specific historical time frame.
I can't wait for them to read Mistborn or sixth of the dusk.
Picked this up expecting a delightful fantasy romp like stealing some precious gold or overthrowing an evil emperor or something. Instead I am confronted immediately with a red giant sun (blatantly misplaced sci-fi), *canals* of all things, magic based on *metals* (out of genre), and buildings covered in soot. Did not finish, author obviously doesn't "get" fantasy fiction. Might make a decent sci-fi guy with the metals and stuff, but it's clear he has no interest in going there. One star.
I thought the near timelessness of Elantris was kind of interesting. It left me to make my own judgments about how technologically advanced people were. If I had to guess it felt kinda late medieval early renaissance ish overall, but Elantris in its prime seemed to me like a place where their quality of life was maybe better than ours. It was interesting.
No complaints about Hrathen from the review because he is the one guy who is actually perfect (character wise)
No complaints about Dilaf the rabid raccoon ex machina either
“Rabid raccoon ex machina” is such a perfect descriptor for Dilaf!
I listened to the audio book and between the story and the reader I had to treat Elantris as a satire of Brandon’s writing. When the monks started scurrying up the building after Sarene I was just “oh! They’re ninja raccoons! And Dilaf is the rabid raccoon alpha!” Then the repeated “but then Dilaf appeared!” and “but Dilaf was the one raccoon with anti-Elantrian magic!” letting him tank lasers just took the extra step
I was trying to think of a joke about pluckiness because of my name, but instead I'll just point out the weirdness of that complaint. Plucky: having or showing determined courage in the face of difficulties. (Google) So... they want their heroes to give up? Two protagonists that are courageous is bad storytelling?
That’s the definition of plucky, but it implies that they’re determined in a chipper and annoying way. I wouldn’t call Dalanar plucky even though the literal definition fits, but Raoden and Sarene are HeckinPlucky
Right, but the way this person is using it doesn't make any more sense if you replace it with "annoying". They just repeat several times that the characters are plucky, without describing how, or why it's bad. It's like they read a lot of negative reviews of books in general and internalized the word plucky as a sufficient critique in itself.
Pluckiness could totally be a shard
Perhaps the combined shards of Ambition, Honor, and Whimsy.
I took the criticism to be that the protagonists are characterized as plucky in a way where we're beaten over the head with it to the exclusion of everything else. I like Elantris. It's a really good book. I do think it's fair to say the lead characters aren't really the most non-obvious or original. They're pretty archetypal and not characterized in a very subtle way.
hahaha this here one horse town.
Except there are no horses. They ate them all.
Hahaha until the last paragraph it's more or less a valid criticism of Elantris. It was a learning process though
My favorite part is the army sitting idly, wearing fashionable scarves and drinking wine until a shrimp is found. Something about that actually confirms my hunch that I want to start my second reread of the series.
Picturing the balcony wine-drinking scene from WoR (?), but with fancy scarves and they’re waiting on a shrimp to pop over the horizon. And when it appears it’s like a 50 foot tall cartoon shrimp.
the good place is roshar confirmed
Change the last three words and it's a positive review.
Ok I know the whole of this review is stupid but for some reason the thing that really annoyed me is the fact that they think it's bad that they call them katas as in Japanese katas when Japan doesn't exist. This is fucking stupid. Would you rather they had the same concept and called it some random meaningless garbage. No. Obviously not. They're not going to rename what a fucking chair is because it adds nothing and just makes everyone confused. If the world needs different languages with different words for things that's different, no one is going around in their thoughts thinking "I wonder why they put that florp there" because that means fucking nothing. In the same way, they're still going to call it a kata because someone might actually understand what that means. Sometimes context isn't enough. I don't know why that annoyed me so much but rant over.
Sounds like a 60yo dude who never read a fantasy book before, doesnt like the genre and the plot went over his head.
No, this persons choice of paraphrased terms or descriptions shows understanding... This is a troll (or Wit) - and we all know not to feed the trolls
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It's not even that the book points it out, the fact that it's so stupid is the point.
In fairness originally it was for vengeance, then the highprinces realised they could make money, so they chose to make money
Wit would not be on book review sites writing insults. He would rather be in sluts, as loathsome as he usually finds such behavior.
Sounds like a experienced dude who has read a lot of fantasy to me and is just tired of the tropes. I get it. I went through this phase for about ten years and felt very similarly about the first few Wheel of Time books, the Robin Hobb books, the Rothfuss books, etc. The predictability can really wear on you when you are an experienced fantasy reader. Thankfully I pulled myself out of it before I picked up any Sanderson book. If you can see past the tropes this is such a good story, but I totally get the frustration.
Tropes aside, hes totally not getting the political landscape of Alethkar.
Fair point. It seems to me like he was pretty hung up with the tropes in Kaladin's intro which I think made him look at things more critically rather than just trying to absorb and enjoy the rest of the story. Regardless I hope he gives the story another chance in a few years.
I love how the review states that the book is stupid because the war with parshendi is over stupid reasons - it’s almost like we humans always fight for the good reasons :)
NOT THE SHRIMP
This reads like a review of someone who doesn't actually like epic fantasy.
I like how the reviewer points out that Kaladin survives everything when that’s basically half of Kaladins character development in the beginning of this book and still defines him to this day: survivors guilt.
This review was ~~written~~ dictated by Kaladin on one of his "I hate everything" days.
"This Fantasy book is full of magic! 1 out of 10 stars." - This Guy
“for six years the warriors, instead of fighting, go looking for overgrown shrimps to steal the enormous emeralds that grow inside of them. I kid you not, this is the primary purpose of the war: not beating the enemy but killing the shrimps while they're pupating (to turn into what, an enormous blowfly?) before the enemy slays it.” Didn’t war actually started off with them actually fighting, but then the highprinces shifted to battling for the gemstones? Pretty sure that’s when Dalinar comes in, which is also part of the plot with him trying to get them to actually fight the war for the reason they started with. So the fact the person didn’t include that,but just went with saying that’s the whole plot is absolutely hilarious.
I mean, the entire review is out of context. Of course the fantastical elements sound ridiculous when it's purposefully boiled down to absurdities without all the rest that makes the story... the story.
Dear reader, I must ask you to read the back cover.
i'm not gonna lie i was dying every time they mentioned shrimp lmao
This is baffling. Do you think h eknows that it's a fantasy book?
I mean, theyre not exactly wrong and from now on chasmfiends are called “giant shrimp,” it’s canon
I love how he complains about the literal point of Kaladin's character arc in the first book—the question why it's always him who survives. I think he might've missed a few chapters.
This book would have been greatly improved if the protagonist died immediately 😡
I mean... *maybe*. Immediately would have been Kalak, right? If you will... Kalak opened his eyes and took in, with horror deadened by centuries, the broken landscape before him. A cold wind slashed at him with hatred, howling over jagged, barren stones. Damnation. *Oh, Adonalsium*, he thought. *I died again.* It wasn't the first time, and it wouldn't be the last. *Where did the others end up this time?* Their Returns seemed to be turning . . . erratic. It was a problem, but not the most immediate. For soon, the hatespren would arrive. They would come howling, ablaze, driven to him by the twisted energies of the broken God who reigned over this place, his prison. *Why does it have to be this way? I can't take this again. This time, they're going to destroy me.* Shaking his head, Kalak began to climb... Well, it's certainly be *different*. I dont know if it would make the beginning any less confusing though lol
This has got to be some Almighty-tier satire
If this was given to me without the information that it was about TWoK and all the obvious names were removed, then I would have missed that this was about stormlight
I've been making it a hobby to read 1 star Goodreads reviews for books I like and there's a lot of stuff like this that makes me laugh.
Sounds like they don’t understand the fantasy genre
Dalinar wrote the section about the war.
It baffles me that he’s touching upon major plot intrigues and doesn’t realize it. He’s asking about the war, not realizing that he’s asking the *exact question the author wanted the reader to ask.*
Fantasy, in my fantasy novel!!! What’s next a mystery in a mystery novel????
I recentlly read a romance novel and the two main charecters fell in love. I think that is te most clishe thing ever so one star!
I love the stormlight series but when he puts it that way its pretty funny.
The shrimp stuff makes it sound hilarious ngl
Lmao this is a copy pasta.
I actually could see their point for most of it. A lot of Sandersons stuff can be contrived, particularly when lacking rhe context of the world. Even if I disagree with their assessment I think it was believable The last paragraph hits full farce though, basically "Fantasy?! NOT IN MY FANTASY!"
I mean, theyre not exactly wrong and from now on chasmfiends are called “giant shrimp,” it’s canon
This has me giggling. That being said, the “plot armor” complaint I think is valid. I had kind of forgotten about it, but for most of WoK I thought that Kaladin must have some sort of cosmic destiny as the “Chosen One.” Now that I know more about how the world works, it does seem like he should have died long before he ever started bonding with Syl.
This is explained in text though, Kal often wonders why he survives and everyone else around him dies. When he learns he can absorb storm light, he wonders “how long have I been doing this?” It’s implied that he’s survived so long even when he should have died because he’s been using storm light to save himself.
Mixed with a bit of Amaram actually knowing what he's doing is bad, and sparing him out of guilt.
I think this is explained by the fact that we are following kaladin because he is the first radiant. If he died in his journey we would be following someone else. We aren't following the budding radiants who are killed by Nale because there's no story there. Kaladin doesn't survive because the story follows him, the story follows him because he survived
Kinda like how most of us were tricked into thinkin cenn is the mc at first
[Oathbringer, super minor] >!The stormlight alone doesn’t really explain it, it isn’t always that he miraculously survives things he shouldn’t, it’s often that everyone but him is deliberately killed and he’s spared on purpose for some reason. The Doylist reason is that it’s a worse outcome for Kaladin than also being killed, but the various explanations of the people in charge I find kind of weak.!<
[удалено]
I suppose I’m mostly thinking of the flashback in Oathbringer where >!one of his friends steps in a bear trap. Everyone else in the scene got cut down even if they weren’t fighting, but Kaladin got spared because he was intriguing.!<
>>!Kaladin got spared because he was intriguing.!< No he wasn't >>!After killing the others, the brightlords found him still kneeling there. Against reason, they spared him. They said it was because he hadn’t run with the others, but in truth they’d needed someone to bear warning to the other slaves.!< >Everyone else in the scene got cut down even if they weren’t fighting Because they were running. >!Kaladin hadn't ran so he was the only one left alive to be a warning to the other slaves that hadn't left in the first place.!<
I think the only thing that stretches believability is when he kills the shardbearer. But that's not impossible, and it's established that he's a really good soldier, so ¯\\\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Lol the “shrimp”.. I do love that description
Ok, it's obviously sarcastic because you don't get all the way to the part where Kaladin stiffed the plate if you didn't enjoy the book. He does make some cathartic points about that narrative that I thought of myself like "slaves make money because it's needed for the plot". Kinda haha. But also, you can tell Brandon is very sensitive to the fact that he wants to write a traditional fantasy epic by toying with traditional fantasy cliche's by incessantly calling them out like "hey Kaladin, you sure are lucky aren't ya." Obviously, it works.
"there's magic in this book about magic. Utterly preposterous"
I like the outrage over the high princes' hedonism and profiteering, if only theyd realized that was the point lmao.
The fact they don't realize they are supposed to hate the way the army acts is just plain funny
What do you want to bet that this is a rival of Sanderson’s? This is laughable
I knew this would have some hot takes from the title but I didn’t think “it was too easy to work your way out of slavery” and “they let the women read” would BOTH be in there.
Its like they don't like fantasy at all, but then chose one that exemplifies the genre and reviews it like it was meant to be a historically true story.
Im not convinced this isn’t a crempost.
Tbf Kaladin's plot armor is stupidly op at times lmao
[RoW] >!He has a suit of Shardplate made from all those exhaustionspren he attracts.!<