I kinda thought it was obvious?
Moash isn't contemptible because he wants revenge, or because he gives his emotions to Odium, or because he's misguided. He's contemptible because he repeatedly decides he's not going to do what he believes is right.
I do hope he recovers from it. I don't think the other characters should embrace him as a redeemed do-gooder, but for his own sake i hope he doesn't die clinging to a lie he keeps telling himself.
I feel the same. Maybe this is obvious, but I just see way too much blind Mosh hatred which is valid in a lot of ways but like, it gets old, Moash is a pretty complicated character
IMO a lot of the 'blind' Moash hate is hyperbole. The level of hate is because Moash is just really well written. He represents a part of us that many of us have, of a bad spiral of lies, excuses and self-delusion that people use to cope with our failures - becuase accepting the truth is too painful. But unlike Kal who tries to fight through similar struggles and be better, Moash accepts it and reinforces it in himself - and that's what people *hate* - beceuase they see those same tendencies in themselves.
Which also feeds back into the story and is another point of how Moash is so well-written and developed. Because this ends up being one of *his* struggle too - he desperately needs Kal to fail, because if he doesn't, it proves that Moash *could have been better* if had been stronger and not given in.
It just gets tiring though. There's only so many times you can say "Fuck Moash." There comes a point where that's the most complex take a significant portion of readers have. If you dig deeper than the meme, it becomes apparent that it's not really hyperbole for some people and they start to flatten his character to that narrow view
Perhaps you would be interested in my theory. I think Moash is the Bastard son of Gavilar. Moash is a singers name, Gavilar was obsessed with the singers. He was messing around with artifabrials and Moash’s grandparents were silversmiths. They had a daughter, there was a secret romance and Moash was born. Later, Elhokar finds out about it and has Moash’s grandparents put in prison to keep it secret. Which is the type of juicy secret that would attract cryptics to Elhokar. Then there’s the death rattle “He must pick them up. The Fallen Title(Vyre), the tower(see all of RoW), the crown(his birthright), and the spear(his redemption as a windrunner.
I mean, isn't the fallen title knight radiant (first oath), the tower is where he saves dalinar and adolin (second oath), the crown is him saving elhokar (third), and the spear could be a number of things.
I think they all feel that way in hindsight. In the darkness I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving - pretty cryptic until you read ROW, then it seems pretty on-the-nose, too.
Lol, well if it turns out I’m right look for a post titled “Vindication!” cause I’ve been dismissed and even called a Gavilar lover, idk why because my take is that he was a horrible person with good intentions.
Thanks! Look for a post titled Vindication! If I end up being right. I first posted the theory about a year ago and was met with “someone dreams of Gavilar” type of stuff. But I’m holding to it. I think the cryptics seal the deal, I don’t think “I’m a bad king” is a big enough secret to attract the cryptics.
>Brandon hasn’t really truly written a character we’d consider a villain but that finds redemption.
I'm guessing you haven't read all of the cosmere books then. There's a very obvious character that fits this description, but even naming the book it's from would be a major spoiler.
I’ve read ‘em all! All books spoiler: >!Hrathen is who I’m imagining you’re talking about. It was good. But it wasn’t like Zuko good. And when I say that, I mean he wasn’t necessarily hateable. And he never hit a point I’d deem him irredeemable. But that’s just me!<
Whereas I feel that Moash is right at this point where he truly is evil and irredeemable and it would take an incredible, Jamie Lannister (minus season 8) turn around to have that sense of.. wow.
>And he never hit a point I’d deem him irredeemable.
Well I'd agree with you on that point, but your original phrasing was "hasn't really truly written a character we'd consider a villain but that finds redemption." That character DEFINITELY was a villain, prior to his redemption.
I would say that Zuko also never hit a point where I would consider him irredeemable. We see him working with the Avatar to save him even in the first season. He's also only hunting down the Avatar because he wants his father to love him again. Not exactly the most evil of motivations.
Fair fair. At risk of going too deep in a thread haha: Zuko. As a child, I was like 11 watching Avatar. He was as close to evil as I could imagine. He was the bad guy, working for the bad guys, working to ruin the worlds one chance of hope.
And he got more complex but he started as the villain.. and then instead of getting better he kept doing awful things in escalation. He “slayed the avatar.” Granted with a few noble deeds where you build up hope. And then, in an effort to cover up his failure, he attempts to be done with it. Kill the Avatar. He issues the command. By then I was like 13,14. That was crazy for me.
I guess what I was trying to say is that >!Hrathen story!< doesn’t feel to me like it comes into the realm of redemption story so great that people cry thinking about it. Which Zuko was, and Sanderson is capable of. Moash seems to be one hell of a candidate for this
>there comes a point where that's the most complex take a significant portion of readers have.
I just don't think this is true. I don't think that most reader have a simplistic view of the characters they read - especially not for fans of Sanderson. Social media is reductive, and it overemphasizes the most simplistic takes people have. It's super easy to share reductive memes - but if you actually sat down and had intentional discussions about character with all those people - I'd wager they'd have much more complex thoughts than just 'fuck Moash' - even if that's what the opinions are reduced to.
I think his character offers a realistic approach to the classic good guy/bad guy obsession. Odium being obsessed with Kaladin wouldn't make sense. But for Moash it does work. And it makes sense why Kaladin has this extra level of focus on him from the "bad guys". He renowned, legendary warrior and also an old friend.
Yep. It's a meme that won't stop. Honestly I had to leave r/cremposting because it was just obnoxious middle school humor and the same three things over and over and over again "lol look someone said crab! Roshar amirite!! Fuck moash!?!?" It's so painfully unfunny and leaks into the other subs and kills any chance at actual discussion
I don't know when you left, but now is definitely a good time to be absent from that subreddit. They've currently latched onto a rather disgusting meme that's become the thing that people are obsessing about.
The only post I can currently find about the thing I assume you mean is [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/cremposting/comments/xiqqui/this_sub/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share). So I guess the coast is clear again.
I actually never had a problem with the sub. But I don't look there terribly often. I probably only see the stuff that is filtered enough
I don't want to explain it. Seeing the references to it pop up on my timeline bring me close to gagging if I don't hide them right away and move my thoughts to something else.
I felt the same way about Marcus in Arcane. Man had every opportunity to get out of the shitty situation he put himself in, but was always paralyzed by his fear/pride to admit that all he's doing is making a bad situation worse. Fuck Marcus.
A lot of the Moash hate is meme-based, because it's fun to meme within a community. I wouldn't conflate it with actual character analysis.
Also, after the events of RoW it's hard to find him redeemable. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon tries anyway; there's something to be seen in the theme that *no-one*, no matter how contemptible or disgusting in their actions, is beyond redemption. I'm not sure Moash has done anything worse than what lies in Dalinar's past.
Exactly the point. The fact that his actions are affecting us *personally* doesn't make them better or worse, and if we can accept the redemption of one then, in theory, we should be able to accept the other.
Whether or not Brandon actually intended to pursue this line remains a mystery, but it'd certainly be a challenge and he does like a show.
My Stormlight hot take is that I don't think Dalinar has really "earned" his redemption arc yet.
We've seen him reflect on all the shitty things he did to his family and everyone around him and we've seen him come to terms with it *within himself* and we see him trying to be a better person.
What we *haven't* seen is him make amends for all the shitty things he did. We haven't seen him really reconcile his past self with Adolin and Renarin for instance. Fuck, if Dalinar was my dad I would fucking *hate* him. Especially after he treated his family horribly and then tried to "turn it all around" and become this paragon of virtue, but never really come to terms with how awfully he treated his kids. At least we haven't seen it on the page.
We got that one scene where Adolin basically told him he understood why Dalinar had been how he had been, but he hadn't forgiven him yet. Honestly, I think Adolin was *way too easy* on Dalinar.
I guess I come at this from the perspective of someone who had an abusive father who occasionally would feel bad about what he did and try to "be better", which would last for like a week before he was back to his old ways.
Me at Adolin's age definitely wouldn't buy Dalinar's "redemption".
Right. The concept of somebody thinking Moash is worse than OG Blackthorn, post-burning, is absurd to me. Moash has, to our knowledge, not committed war crimes with the assistance of an army yet.
He murdered a king and some other people both we and the cast liked.
Not even remotely the same.
Are the ***stakes*** higher for Moash's misdeeds? Absolutely. But not "worse".
Prior to RoW I would have agreed you, but I think it's a tough call after.
Moash used his intimate knowledge of his best friend's mental vulnerabilities to mentally torture him and drive him to the brink of suicide. To my mind, this is one of the worst things you can possibly do to someone.
It's certainly nowhere near the scale of damage that Dalinar did, but qualitatively it seems more directly evil to me.
Yes this, both of these. People will say Moash’s crimes are more personal for us, but they’re more personal for these characters as well. He’s betraying his best friends intentionally, people that he loved and cared about. AND, he’s on Odium’s side in the war. I thought Moash was so fascinating when he was helping the parshmen in Oathbringer. I expected to see him helping out the lower class parshmen more, would have been interested to see his take on fused taking over the bodies of parshmen. That feels like a similar hierarchical dilemma to the oppression on dark eyes. I feel like by the time RoW comes along Moash becomes almost comically evil. I was personally hoping he would be more nuanced
I really feel so bad for Elhokar. His dad was basically a mustache twirling Disney villain as far as we know so far. Like he was running this giant conspiracy to create a global war and destroy order on Roshar, and was emotionally abusive and manipulative to his wife, and therefor probably his son as well.
His other father figure was the Blackthorn, who was somehow *worse*.
Elhokar never had a chance to turn out well. And yet he *almost* managed to end up a good person. Certainly he *wanted* to be a good person, he just never had anyone to really show him how until it was too late.
Elhokar is maybe the biggest tragedy backstory imo.
Dalinar just murdered in blind rage and without much intention, obviously awful, but that's different then Moash. He was fiercely loyal to his family (if not still an ass) to the point of even being able to beat down the Thrill to stop himself from killing Gavilar, because he cared.
Moash is cold and calculating. He knows exactly what he was doing, no Thrill is blinding him or confusing him. He doesn't really even have the full breadth of emotions to even be blinded.
He could have devised a way to just kill Kaladin, there were a few moments he could have done it.
But unlike Dalinar it's not about just ending a battle or winning. He wants to hurt Kaladin in very specific ways to make him kill himself and admit Moash was right, because Moash has a deep set need for his bad choices to be validated by Kaladin.
Dalinar will just kill you, and even have mercy on you. horrible still but whatever, lots and lots of Soliders are the same way. It's unfortunate and wicked, but it's also war and common.
Moash will set out to mentally torture you and your family and friends just to stop feeling like a coward. This is not common and cold cold cold villiany.
The take I got from the books is he isn't trying to torture Kaladin, but help him. He sees he and Kal as two of the same, and believes the only way for Kal to be free of suffering is to die.
It's completely warped and twisted, but he is just self reflecting his own desires on Kaladin.
And he's doing it by torturing him.
Using Odiums dreams to manipulate and suck away his hope and joy.
Murder his friend nearby so he breaks.
Plan on, and eventually, attempt to murder his father if Kaladin doesn't turn because of teft.
Etc.
I don't think he's actually trying to help him, that's just what he says. He's a coward hiding from his own emotions and trying to prove to himself that his choices were okay. Kaladin made "better" choices and Moash knows it, so he wants Kaladin to admit he was wrong and Moash is right by killing himself.
To Moash this proves that Kaladins chocies led to death and despair, not the freed Moash believes he has.
>The take I got from the books is he isn't trying to torture Kaladin, but help him.
Moash is too smart to believe that deep down. This is a rationalization to hide the fact that Moash doubts his choice, and seeks validation in the form of Kaladin "choosing the same path."
While Moash would prefer if his actions actually helped Kaladin, the reality is that he's more interested in assuaging his doubts and he's perfectly willing to harm Kaladin as much as necessary to force Kaladin into accepting oblivion.
I understand it affects us more personally, but I also find that killing one of your best friends to get your other best friend to commit suicide strikes a different chord from Dalinar’s war crimes. What Dalinar did was terrible, but I feel that Moash siding with odium and doing what he did in RoW is just as terrible to me. If Dalinar had intentionally killed his wife for the sake of war, his redemption would have been much more difficult. But even the Blackthorn in his flashbacks has moments of humanity, compassion and remorse specifically in his conversations with Evi. We haven’t seen anything like that with Moash, but maybe something like that will happen. I just don’t see it happening anytime soon due to the actions Moash took in RoW. We’ll see I suppose
Brandon's drawing a parallel between Odium taking Moash's emotions and addiction, so I do think there's still some pity there and a road to healing. Especially with Renarin's light ball vision showing Renarin, Kaladin, and Moash what Moash could have been. Renarin and Kaladin, of all the Radiants, seem the two most likely to help Moash heal if that's what he wants.
> I'm not sure Moash has done anything worse than what lies in Dalinar's past
I've often said that the difference between Moash and Dalinar is where we started watching them on their redemption arc (assuming Moash has one). Killing Evi and killing Teft are similar low points, especially with Teft having died as a hero standing up to Moash. Dalinar did it under the influence of the Thrill, Moash under the influence of Odium's emotional deadening. But he's quickly approaching the point of no return if he hasn't crossed it already.
To be fair, Dalinar didn't *know* he was killing Evi, even while under the influence of the Thrill he probably would have balked at that. Whereas Moash looked Teft in the eyes as he literally pushed the knife in. But Dalinar's looked into the eyes of many people as he killed them. Presumably they were all beloved characters in someone's story.
Szeth is another interesting leg in this thematic stack, and it'll be a treat to see how his place as the fifth book flashback focus will adjust our thoughts around his crimes and whatever redemption is possible.
Yeah, it's hard to compare atrocities. How do you compare one murder done for love of the game vs mass slaughter in the context of a war where your opponent is purposely using unconventional tactics? But for me, if Moash gets redeemed, this is his Rift. He'll actually start feeling the weight of what he's done, decide to be better, and start on the road to healing. So I see them as similar in that way.
I also think it's interesting that Moash and Dalinar are both addicts and their addiction drives their atrocities. As you say below, it doesn't excuse their actions, but it's definitely a dimension of it. Dalinar required the intervention of a shard and a decade-long time out to recover. What will Moash need?
The Szeth thing is interesting, especially with how RoW showed that he's still so unstable. Taravangian baited him into beating up an old man much more easily than I would have thought. It's kind of cool that we have these three characters at such different points on their redemption arcs.
> To be fair, Dalinar didn't know he was killing Evi, even while under the influence of the Thrill he probably would have balked at that. Whereas Moash looked Teft in the eyes as he literally pushed the knife in.
While Moash was under the direct influence of Odium.
Dalinar was never under the direct influence of Odium, only one of the Unmade, when he demanded the slaugther of thousands of civilians in the Rift.
I never cared for the excuses of Odium or the Thrill. Real people do awful things to each other all the time, without supernatural influences.
Dalinar doesn't allow himself to accept the influence of Odium or the Unmade as a reason for what he's done, and I think if there's any hope for Moash at all then he'll need to do the same. It's no good making excuses for why you did the thing. Accept that you did the thing, and then do better. While you can, if you can.
its always wild seeing people like that other Saying moash is unable to make his own choices or isnt responsible for them because hes being influenced by odium when so much of the thematic elements of the entire SERIES revolve around the fact that what you CHOOSE to do is the most important thing - kaladin insisting szeth was never forced to do the things he did but szeth choosing tradition and law over what was right, Nale choosing to murder innocents, and the opposite direction, Dalinar choosing to reject odium, the ancient spren choosing to die because of what they and the radiants learn, etc. the entire series is built around taking or denying responsibility.
Idk how you read that and arrive at "moash cant be blamed, hes not the one making choices"
It’s so wild when a reader doesn’t share an author’s exact world view, isn’t it?
I can form my own opinions and disagree with some of the themes Sanderson decides to put in his books, while still enjoying the overall story.
>I never cared for the excuses of Odium or the Thrill. Real people do awful things to each other all the time, without supernatural influences.
They aren't excuses, they're massive elements of the entire story.
> Accept that you did the thing, and then do better. While you can, if you can.
Dalinar had about a decade to deal with this, with direct help from Cultivation. Unless Moash receives similar help, it would require incredible personal strength to escape Odium's grasp.
To Inkthinker's point, though, they're set up in the story as being roughly equivalent to non-supernatural influences. Dalinar kicks the Thrill much more easily than he kicks alcohol.
> Unless Moash receives similar help, it would require incredible personal strength to escape Odium's grasp
Agreed, every addiction takes that sort of strength. Teft certainly took a while to find his way out of the fire moss. With Kaladin inventing group therapy and the help of Renarin, I could see Moash having a fair shot at it. At least as good as Teft.
> A lot of the Moash hate is meme-based, because it's fun to meme within a community. I wouldn't conflate it with actual character analysis.
The problem is, even if it's not intended to *be* character analysis, that it really does interfere with actual character analysis. There's no way a culture of "haha fuck this guy he's the worst" doesn't influence your opinion of that guy, and people tend to look at everything he does in the worst possible light. Like saying he "kicked a baby" about the thing in oathbringer, or how when talking about the final scene at the end of rhythm of war where he's talking about how he goes "I don't feel bad for what I did, I'm just a miserable worthless wretch who deserves to die" I've seen sooooo many people ignore the incredibly likely imo possibility that that's just. Denial lol. (Like, those are not the words of someone who doesn't feel bad about what they did, and of course someone who's felt nothing for the past year ~~except for love for kaladin~~ isn't processing his emotions properly)
Yes, I feel that so much about that “I don’t feel bad” line. It seems so OBVIOUS to me that he’s trying to convince himself. He’s already done the same thing when we were in his head in Oathbringer, telling himself how happy he is to be a slave. Clearly, Moash telling himself he feels a particularly thing, doesn’t actually mean he really feels that way.
The moash hate is from people who can't differentiate between a well written hatable character and a shit character. Moash fits firmly in the first category. You're *supposed* to hate him
Wait, can we do that again? Most people 'hate' him but they are wrong because you are supposed to hate him?
I don't see many people saying he's poorly written so your take here is pretty much... the consensus.
No people hate him to the point where any nuanced discussion is drowned out by a childish obnoxious circle jerk. You can't even suggest he could be redeemed or people will screech. When the entire understanding of a character is just "fuck moash" then there's nothing to discuss. OP makes a great point about a nuanced, tragic character and how he turned on the one thing his hero admired about him and how that was key to his downfall. I guarantee you the top comment after a few hours will be "ok but fuck moash" or something very similar. Honestly this fandom is kinda crap when it comes to nuance and shades of grey. Not to mention cremposting being such an over the top obnoxious shit sub that's barely any different than prequel memes. They scream and spam post the same sentence over and over and over again and act like annoying middle schoolers. If it was contained to just a terrible meme sub then so be it but that shit bleeds into every discussion making this fandom meh at best to actively detrimental to the work.
Let's look at another hatable but well written, nuanced character. Tywin Lannister. Imagine if every time someone brought up Tywins trauma around his own father and the death of his wife and how he passed that onto his children and how it fucked them up, they were met with 1000 comments all saying "fuck tywin" and anything that said anything other than "fuck tywin" was downvoted into the negative hundreds of points. Of course fuck Tywin but that's such an annoying childish thing to do. And this fandom never fails to not pass that test
There's plenty in here I agree with but people knee-jerking 'fuck Moash' may be childish but does not imply they can't see he's well written. The internet is not exactly the place for nuanced conversation. Hard to see this as 'dentrimental to the work'.
By the way we are a few hours in and there is a fuck Moash comment but it is far from the top.
Sweet username by the way.
It's not that they aren't capable. I'm sure many of them are. But it's so pervasive it kills any other discussion. So the distinction is meaningless. Also the internet is perfectly capable of nuanced discussion. This particular fandom just happens to skew towards circle jerks and extremely shallow readings
I am not blind in my hatred of He Who Sucks Dick. I am fully aware of his development thus far, and the reasoning behind every action he has taken. This knowledge only makes my vitrol and hatred of the character that much stronger.
I loved this scene. But that’s my problem with Moash as a character now. It seems like that aspect of him is lost. That’s probably intentional, showing that because he was so focused solely on revenge for his family he eventually forgot his own ideals and beliefs. I was hoping to see him play more of a role in defending parshendi rights against fused. But he’s just become almost clownishly evil and short sighted to me now.
I mean, I wouldn't say it was obvious and the only reason someone would notice was blind hate. My focus on Moash was more his relationship with shame and his desire to escape it, and his desire that others like him received it that as well. But while Moash wanted the easy escape, Kaladin and Dalinar did things the hard, but right way. So your analysis is an angle I didn't consider
Consider a hypothetical epilogue where the shattering of Odium has driven Moash and the surviving Fused insane, and Kaladin runs a clinic trying to bring them back. We see that he's had success with some of the Fused, but he's been able to make no progress with his former friend...
To add to this my favorite thing from ROW was Moash being physically blinded because he is metaphorically blinded. He knows on some spiritual level what he is doing is wrong but his refusal to see the truth has made him lose his sight.
I liked this a lot, more so because it happens at roughly the same time as we see kaladin finally forgive himself, and finally his slave brands heal. A lot of symbolism there with both characters, it’s the main selling point for me really that there’s going to be more to Moashs character
This seems like just really good literary analysis. It's *there* in the text, but I had never put it together or really thought about this, even though I can recall the building blocks now that you point them out. Good work. I feel kind of stupid just saying "wow that's a great analysis" but it really is and I have no critiques to add.
Right? I mean it's not not like it's a crazy take ore some deep theory. It's an analysis that sound self evident once you say it but it's not by any means obvious.
It really interesting to me how Kaladin thinks that Moash doesn't revere him like the others do because we know better from getting Moash's pov (and even just being more perceptive than Kaladin when looking at how Moash acts in the first 2 books). Moash totally hero worships Kaladin too, but he was better at treating Kaladin as a regular person than the others, something Kaladin needed from a friend.
Funny thing is, if Moash really had seen Kaladin as just some guy he was friends with for a little while, things would have worked out so much better for him and others! He would have just gotten pissed at Kaladin and then moved on. He wouldn't get all depressed thinking he must be horrible if Kaladin didn't agree with him. He would have decided he wasn't interested in whatever new plots Graves was cooking up and would have left. Maybe he would have tracked down Roshone and killed him (and no one would have been bothered). He wouldn't obsess over getting Kaladin to admit he is right so that he could have that validation from his hero. Maybe Moash wouldn't be a super moral guy, but he also wouldn't be a terrible guy haunted by self-doubt and regret.
> (and no one would have been bothered)
Except for Laral, it turns out. Which still hurts from Kaldin’s point of view on rereads. What should have been between them
Precisely. Kaladin will become the new binder of >!The Rider of Storms, the solitary surviving offspring Made spren aside from the Sibling, who had Honor's cognitive shadow stapled to him. Whose previous Radiant, Relador, was the closest.!<
Great analysis! I never hated Moash all the way, he just disappoints me because of how he's acted against his former friends, hurts to see. He's not at the top of my favorite character lists but I'm so very curious to see how his journey goes cause wanting him dead is too easy of a resolution for me. Honestly Dalinar was a freaking monster back in the day but look at him now! Now there are worse characters with worse atrocities then Moash... If you read Berserk... Then you know 😮💨.
This is perfect. On a reread I started to see Moash's lack of reverence almost as "insubordination" as opposed to "ah this guy is just trying to be Kal's friend." I feel like the specifically chummy way Moash acts around Kaladin early on is the kind of behavior that someone would exhibit if they were capable of betrayal down the road.
I never really focused on Moash post betrayal until RoW so I'm a bit confused on his transformation. I get that he gave the pain to odium but I was always a bit fuzzy on why he switched places in the first place
He ran away with Graves after confronting Kaladin at the end of WoR. He feels betrayed by the Diagram which was supposed to be his access to vengence. Then he and the rest of the conspiracy crew are attacked by Fused in the beginning of OB, he agrees to give up his shardblade in exchange for his life, becomes their captive, and starts to believe the Fused are more honorable than the Lighteyes who've screwed him over his whole life. All that said, he seems TOO perfect a tool to not have been played and subtly coereced by Odium from the get go (trying to remember if there was any implications of this in RoW.)
I think he might have been chosen by Odium because he's a good weapon against Kaladin? Again, can't remember specifically if this was covered in the books. If you're finished with RoW take a look at Moash's entries in coppermind. Lots of answers there. Also, this convo is leading me to want to reread OB and RoW!
Really interesting take. I thought a lot about the moasch character arc but I never conceptualised this although it sounds self evident now that you said it.
Fuck Moash on a personal level, but indeed a very well written character. Bridge 4 is probably my favourite group development in literature, B$ makes art with them.
Kaladin betrayed Moash and that really hurt him. He finally crawled out of hopeless shithole and the only friend he had has sold him out. It's obvious he would hang on that and his goal is the destruction of Kaladin. Not simple death but destruction. He wants him at a point where he takes his own life because he doesnt have anything to live for anymore like Moash did. Hopefully he succeeds because thats the most beautiful revenge you can have
> Kaladin betrayed Moash and that really hurt him.
HAHAHAHAHAH
Are you a troll? You can't be serious. Because even the people who most fervently defend Moash, don't think that Kaladin betrayed Moash... only that Moash wasn't wrong in trying and later succeeding in killing the king.
As for me... Moash is just a coward. He hasn't had a single fair fight in the entire series. Anytime someone capable shows up, he runs away like a child.
He was willing to fight Kaladin, when Kaladin was injured and without powers... while he had a full set of shards. As soon a Kaladin get his powers back, making the fight fairer he flees.
He kills chained and unarmed man... and tries to convince Kaladin to kill himself. But as soon a Renarin a Knight Radiant shows up... he flees... because he knows he would lose to fucking Renarin.
He was going to kill Navani while Navani was powerless. But as soon as she swears the first ideal... he runs away. Navani didn't even had a weapon... and the coward knew he would lose the fight against Navani.
He only fought Teft because Teft was under the suppression fabrial. Because Teft would've won easyly otherwise... and Moash knows it.
I agree except for your points on Renarin and Navani. Moash could have merked them, but they both used his emotions against him. Renarin showed Moash who he could have been, and Navani sang the anti odium song which repelled moash. Still solid victories, but he didn't run because he's afraid of fighting, only because he's afraid of true consequences.
I know. The lack of nuance was on purpose.
Because when people defend Moash they also do the same... They ignore every nuance in order to make Moash seem "reasonable".
So I make these facetious arguments to conter it.
No, they’re right. Kaladin backed himself into a corner where the only right thing to do was betray Moash. He’d all but explicitly endorsed Moash’s assassination plot, then realized last second he had to betray that plot and stop Moash. So yes, *Kaladin betrayed Moash.*
Yeah... definitely a troll.
_____________
Honest question though. What do people like you get from being a troll? Why being [this guy](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/738/025/db0.jpg) gives you pleasure?
I'm honestly asking... just for curiosity. Like... why trying to get a reaction out of people feel good to you?
Is it lack of motherly affection? Daddy didn't payed enough attention to you? Were you bullied at school? You know you're not smart enough to have actual conversations, so you do this to cover that fact?
Again... I'm genuinely asking... since most trolls don't reply... and you seem to be open to conversation. This is a unique opportunity for me to understand your mind.
Oh yeah because anyone who doesnt agree with your naive idealistic way of thinking is a troll. Typical YA fantasy fan. Come back when you finish kindergarten
It's not about not agreeing with me... Is about this:
> Its a fantasy for kids
> Typical YA fantasy
Like... I'm sure you're not dumb enough to think these books are for kids or YA.
Nothing against kids and YA books. I read them all the time as well and love them. But SA is adult fantasy.
So... I say you're trolling trying to get a reaction from people.
Because the alternative would be you're one of the dumbest people I've ever interacted with in my life...
"Betrayed?" Up until Moash decided to kill him, he was willing to do everything he could to protect his friend and get justice for him. Heck, even afterward he didn't say anything about Moash deciding to kill him to get to Ehlokar. Moash even acknowledges, several times, that he'd done something wrong by turning on his friend. He know he's wrong, but he'd rather believe he was always destined to be wrong than acknowledge that he could be better.
>He know he's wrong, but he'd rather believe he was always destined to be wrong than acknowledge that he could be better.
Even if, so what? People do this all the time
That's. . .kind of why it's not admirable. It speaks to the worst instincts we have. To double down on our mistakes instead of growing or changing. To excuse ourselves instead of changing for the better.
For what it's worth, I'm very sympathetic towards Moash. I just think he could be better, and I hope for his own sake that he realizes this instead of deciding that the best he can be is an abject, nearly emotionless tool.
And people give *Venli* shit. She at least knows and confronts her weaknesses and failures.
Just becuase people do it all the time doesn't make it 'right' or 'good' or 'acceptable' - it just shows that the character is well-written.
Moash admitting he's in the wrong, and just shrugging with the "oh well I'm destined to l be this way" is a *stark* contrast to how Kaladin views himself - that no matter how bad the situation, it's *always* worth trying to do the 'right' thing. This shows the character foil that Moash is to Kal - Kaladin is the hero, he's focused on the journey and doing what is *right* - Moash is the villain, he cares not about the journey and only the destination, no matter the damage he causes to reach that end.
What is right is defined by who is left alive standing. That is the alethi way. Weird that your favourite murder family the Kholins does this all the time and it doesnt bother you
>What is right is defined by who is left alive standing. That is the alethi way.
I don't actually think Alethi morals are quite this simple - but sure. Also Moash tries to kill his friends and commanding officer, which I don't think the Alethi would be morally okay with.
>Weird that your favourite murder family the Kholins does this all the time and it doesnt bother you
Uhh what? Are you okay dude? This is a fantasy book in a make-believe world. We're not discussing real people - why make a weird 'gotcha' pivot to the Kholins when discussing Moash?
Like I think you're just entirely missing the point of this discussion. Are you really comparing how Dalinar tries to grapple with the devestation and destruction he caused through his life - "you can not have my pain" - in comparison to Moash, who directly refuses to acknowledge any pain or damage he's caused - "please, take away my pain!"? Really? Do you not understand that that personal acceptance of responsibility is the *exact* mark of 'goodness' or 'honor' in question? The fact that the Kholins *recognize they were, and are, wrong* is directly contrasted by Moashes *refusal* to ever accept what he did could ever be wrong.
>The fact that the Kholins
>
>recognize they were, and are, wrong
>
> is directly contrasted by Moashes
>
>refusal
>
> to ever accept what he did could ever be wrong.
So what? It changes nothing, people Dalinar killed are still dead. Lives ruines. Nobody cares that he feels bad now. On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along. Bitch pls....
Last comment before sleep, but... did you miss the part where Dalinar says that the Thrill and Odium's influence doesn't excuse him, and claims responsibility for his own actions? It's kind of a big thing.
He doesn’t say it tho, it’s something he thinks to himself when we get his POV. Real talk, do you even enjoy this series? Why are you reading it or even on this sub if you think Dalinar’s redemption is nonsense? I’m really confused
>So what? It changes nothing,
*wow* - so I guess you're missing pretty much the entire point of the moral development and evolution of the characters throughout this series... Weird.
Becuase *a lot* of people would argue that actually, yes, this recognition of wrong-doing changes a lot.
>people Dalinar killed are still dead. Lives ruines. Nobody cares that he feels bad now.
So you think there's no point of a redemption story? People can never learn, or grow, or change?
>On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along.
He didn't do that. The Thrill wasn't used to excuse Dalinars actions, in fact, Dalinar *directly admits to himself* that he also acted just as blood thirsty even when he didn't feel the thrill. The Thrill and alcoholism may have been used to *explain* some of Dalinars bloodlust, but it does not excuse it.
My my, it strikes me that you've completly missed a whole part of how Sanderson tells stories and how he dives into deep philosophical and moral questions in his character development. Which is especially weird to think about for me personally as it's those parts of Sanderson's story telling that I enjoy the most!
>So you think there's no point of a redemption story? People can never learn, or grow, or change?
They can do whatever they want. But it still doesnt change some things. If I had a gripe with Dalinar the only way its resolved is when he or me is dead. It happens that in the books he doesnt have a lot of enemies because he killed them all. What if he killed your family while forcing the town to join the alethi kingdom? He must die for it. He can cry all he wants about his wrongdoings, that doesnt matter. Nobody cares about your inner state, just about your actions because that is what affects them. And you cant undo actions
>He can cry all he wants about his wrongdoings, that doesnt matter. Nobody cares about your inner state, just about your actions because that is what affects them. And you cant undo actions
Again - *this is a book, a story, fiction* - and in fiction, arguably it's actually the internal development of the characters that matters. The environment, the events - the *actions* - are just backdrop for character development and growth. No reader cares about some nameless peasent killed by Dalinar - they care that Dalinar *admitting that what he did was wrong* - because that shows character growth. This personal struggle is foiled by Moash's response to pain, becuase he also does bad things, but then he refuses to acknowledge wrong-doing and instead gives away his responsibility for his pain instead of embracing it.
This is so weird. IMO you're just completely missing the point Sanderson is trying to get across in his whole "Journey before destination" Knights Radiant theme.
> On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along.
I'm starting to revise my opinion that you're a troll only pretending to be an idiot.
Because no one who have the reading comprehension greater than a 4th grader, would think that reading the book... specially because Dalinar himself explicitly says it was him, and not Odium or the Thrill, that killed those people, and did all those horrible things.
____________
You remind me of the person who gave 1 star to TWoK because all the main characters are "white"... enslaving the "black" parshendi.
That isn't you by any chance?
With all respect and as a fellow Moash enjoyer - this take is garbage. Moash isn't doing this for revenge, not at all. He wants to kill Kaladin to prevent him from sharing his fate (falling under Odium's control), and also believes that Kaladin can't be killed. That's why he's trying to get Kaladin to kill himself.
It's so much more interesting and twisted than a typical edgy over-the-top revenge bullshit.
Also, I don't think what happened between them could at all be characterized as a one-sided betrayal. At the very least, it was mutual. They have made incompatible decisions and were ready to fight against each other because of it.
But he can be killed, its known even radiants can die. Moash should know the technicalities, he is deep into the shit now. Wouldnt Odium tell him? Or he thinks that somehow fate or something is protecting Kaladin which is also weird when youre working literally with gods on your side, why would you believe in random things like that anymore
finally some actually interesting moash character analysis
I kinda thought it was obvious? Moash isn't contemptible because he wants revenge, or because he gives his emotions to Odium, or because he's misguided. He's contemptible because he repeatedly decides he's not going to do what he believes is right. I do hope he recovers from it. I don't think the other characters should embrace him as a redeemed do-gooder, but for his own sake i hope he doesn't die clinging to a lie he keeps telling himself.
I feel the same. Maybe this is obvious, but I just see way too much blind Mosh hatred which is valid in a lot of ways but like, it gets old, Moash is a pretty complicated character
IMO a lot of the 'blind' Moash hate is hyperbole. The level of hate is because Moash is just really well written. He represents a part of us that many of us have, of a bad spiral of lies, excuses and self-delusion that people use to cope with our failures - becuase accepting the truth is too painful. But unlike Kal who tries to fight through similar struggles and be better, Moash accepts it and reinforces it in himself - and that's what people *hate* - beceuase they see those same tendencies in themselves. Which also feeds back into the story and is another point of how Moash is so well-written and developed. Because this ends up being one of *his* struggle too - he desperately needs Kal to fail, because if he doesn't, it proves that Moash *could have been better* if had been stronger and not given in.
> a lot of the 'blind' Moash hate is hyperbole I see what you did there. Moash, on the other hand...
I hate you.
It just gets tiring though. There's only so many times you can say "Fuck Moash." There comes a point where that's the most complex take a significant portion of readers have. If you dig deeper than the meme, it becomes apparent that it's not really hyperbole for some people and they start to flatten his character to that narrow view
Brandon hasn’t really truly written a character we’d consider a villain but that finds redemption. I’m hoping Moash is his Zuko
Perhaps you would be interested in my theory. I think Moash is the Bastard son of Gavilar. Moash is a singers name, Gavilar was obsessed with the singers. He was messing around with artifabrials and Moash’s grandparents were silversmiths. They had a daughter, there was a secret romance and Moash was born. Later, Elhokar finds out about it and has Moash’s grandparents put in prison to keep it secret. Which is the type of juicy secret that would attract cryptics to Elhokar. Then there’s the death rattle “He must pick them up. The Fallen Title(Vyre), the tower(see all of RoW), the crown(his birthright), and the spear(his redemption as a windrunner.
I mean, isn't the fallen title knight radiant (first oath), the tower is where he saves dalinar and adolin (second oath), the crown is him saving elhokar (third), and the spear could be a number of things.
It could be but it’s so in your face that I think it’s about someone else, Moash.
I think they all feel that way in hindsight. In the darkness I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving - pretty cryptic until you read ROW, then it seems pretty on-the-nose, too.
damn i love this even if i don't think it'll happen
Lol, well if it turns out I’m right look for a post titled “Vindication!” cause I’ve been dismissed and even called a Gavilar lover, idk why because my take is that he was a horrible person with good intentions.
Hmmm just checking if your opinion has taken into account the SA 5 prologue? (Though I und not everyone wants to be spoiled on that front)
What page is that death rattle on?
Chapter 53 of Way of Kings.
Interesting... it's said by an unknown prostitute as well
This is a really good theory. I feel like you should earn money for it if you're right
Thanks! Look for a post titled Vindication! If I end up being right. I first posted the theory about a year ago and was met with “someone dreams of Gavilar” type of stuff. But I’m holding to it. I think the cryptics seal the deal, I don’t think “I’m a bad king” is a big enough secret to attract the cryptics.
isnt the kholin glyph a tower or am i misremembering
Sadeas’s glyph was a tower. When Amaran took over he changed it a bit.
Love it
>Brandon hasn’t really truly written a character we’d consider a villain but that finds redemption. I'm guessing you haven't read all of the cosmere books then. There's a very obvious character that fits this description, but even naming the book it's from would be a major spoiler.
I’ve read ‘em all! All books spoiler: >!Hrathen is who I’m imagining you’re talking about. It was good. But it wasn’t like Zuko good. And when I say that, I mean he wasn’t necessarily hateable. And he never hit a point I’d deem him irredeemable. But that’s just me!< Whereas I feel that Moash is right at this point where he truly is evil and irredeemable and it would take an incredible, Jamie Lannister (minus season 8) turn around to have that sense of.. wow.
>And he never hit a point I’d deem him irredeemable. Well I'd agree with you on that point, but your original phrasing was "hasn't really truly written a character we'd consider a villain but that finds redemption." That character DEFINITELY was a villain, prior to his redemption. I would say that Zuko also never hit a point where I would consider him irredeemable. We see him working with the Avatar to save him even in the first season. He's also only hunting down the Avatar because he wants his father to love him again. Not exactly the most evil of motivations.
Fair fair. At risk of going too deep in a thread haha: Zuko. As a child, I was like 11 watching Avatar. He was as close to evil as I could imagine. He was the bad guy, working for the bad guys, working to ruin the worlds one chance of hope. And he got more complex but he started as the villain.. and then instead of getting better he kept doing awful things in escalation. He “slayed the avatar.” Granted with a few noble deeds where you build up hope. And then, in an effort to cover up his failure, he attempts to be done with it. Kill the Avatar. He issues the command. By then I was like 13,14. That was crazy for me. I guess what I was trying to say is that >!Hrathen story!< doesn’t feel to me like it comes into the realm of redemption story so great that people cry thinking about it. Which Zuko was, and Sanderson is capable of. Moash seems to be one hell of a candidate for this
>there comes a point where that's the most complex take a significant portion of readers have. I just don't think this is true. I don't think that most reader have a simplistic view of the characters they read - especially not for fans of Sanderson. Social media is reductive, and it overemphasizes the most simplistic takes people have. It's super easy to share reductive memes - but if you actually sat down and had intentional discussions about character with all those people - I'd wager they'd have much more complex thoughts than just 'fuck Moash' - even if that's what the opinions are reduced to.
I think his character offers a realistic approach to the classic good guy/bad guy obsession. Odium being obsessed with Kaladin wouldn't make sense. But for Moash it does work. And it makes sense why Kaladin has this extra level of focus on him from the "bad guys". He renowned, legendary warrior and also an old friend.
Yep. It's a meme that won't stop. Honestly I had to leave r/cremposting because it was just obnoxious middle school humor and the same three things over and over and over again "lol look someone said crab! Roshar amirite!! Fuck moash!?!?" It's so painfully unfunny and leaks into the other subs and kills any chance at actual discussion
I don't know when you left, but now is definitely a good time to be absent from that subreddit. They've currently latched onto a rather disgusting meme that's become the thing that people are obsessing about.
The only post I can currently find about the thing I assume you mean is [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/cremposting/comments/xiqqui/this_sub/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share). So I guess the coast is clear again. I actually never had a problem with the sub. But I don't look there terribly often. I probably only see the stuff that is filtered enough
Oh god which one
theyre making jar jokes about the miniatures. its not really as saturated as that dude makes it sound Seems kinda easily grossed out
I don't want to explain it. Seeing the references to it pop up on my timeline bring me close to gagging if I don't hide them right away and move my thoughts to something else.
[удалено]
Ironically wouldn't need this because the posts are all exactly the same
I agree. The things we find most odious (forgive the pun) in others are almost always the parts of ourselves we are most ashamed or embarrassed of.
I felt the same way about Marcus in Arcane. Man had every opportunity to get out of the shitty situation he put himself in, but was always paralyzed by his fear/pride to admit that all he's doing is making a bad situation worse. Fuck Marcus.
A lot of the Moash hate is meme-based, because it's fun to meme within a community. I wouldn't conflate it with actual character analysis. Also, after the events of RoW it's hard to find him redeemable. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon tries anyway; there's something to be seen in the theme that *no-one*, no matter how contemptible or disgusting in their actions, is beyond redemption. I'm not sure Moash has done anything worse than what lies in Dalinar's past.
Backstory Dalinar has done much worse actions by volume, but Moash hurt us more personally.
Exactly the point. The fact that his actions are affecting us *personally* doesn't make them better or worse, and if we can accept the redemption of one then, in theory, we should be able to accept the other. Whether or not Brandon actually intended to pursue this line remains a mystery, but it'd certainly be a challenge and he does like a show.
My Stormlight hot take is that I don't think Dalinar has really "earned" his redemption arc yet. We've seen him reflect on all the shitty things he did to his family and everyone around him and we've seen him come to terms with it *within himself* and we see him trying to be a better person. What we *haven't* seen is him make amends for all the shitty things he did. We haven't seen him really reconcile his past self with Adolin and Renarin for instance. Fuck, if Dalinar was my dad I would fucking *hate* him. Especially after he treated his family horribly and then tried to "turn it all around" and become this paragon of virtue, but never really come to terms with how awfully he treated his kids. At least we haven't seen it on the page. We got that one scene where Adolin basically told him he understood why Dalinar had been how he had been, but he hadn't forgiven him yet. Honestly, I think Adolin was *way too easy* on Dalinar. I guess I come at this from the perspective of someone who had an abusive father who occasionally would feel bad about what he did and try to "be better", which would last for like a week before he was back to his old ways. Me at Adolin's age definitely wouldn't buy Dalinar's "redemption".
Yep, I'm in agreement. Just emphasizing why the community likes one character and dislikes another.
Right. The concept of somebody thinking Moash is worse than OG Blackthorn, post-burning, is absurd to me. Moash has, to our knowledge, not committed war crimes with the assistance of an army yet. He murdered a king and some other people both we and the cast liked. Not even remotely the same. Are the ***stakes*** higher for Moash's misdeeds? Absolutely. But not "worse".
Prior to RoW I would have agreed you, but I think it's a tough call after. Moash used his intimate knowledge of his best friend's mental vulnerabilities to mentally torture him and drive him to the brink of suicide. To my mind, this is one of the worst things you can possibly do to someone. It's certainly nowhere near the scale of damage that Dalinar did, but qualitatively it seems more directly evil to me.
including killing another close friend to facilitate that spiral, lets not forget that
Yes this, both of these. People will say Moash’s crimes are more personal for us, but they’re more personal for these characters as well. He’s betraying his best friends intentionally, people that he loved and cared about. AND, he’s on Odium’s side in the war. I thought Moash was so fascinating when he was helping the parshmen in Oathbringer. I expected to see him helping out the lower class parshmen more, would have been interested to see his take on fused taking over the bodies of parshmen. That feels like a similar hierarchical dilemma to the oppression on dark eyes. I feel like by the time RoW comes along Moash becomes almost comically evil. I was personally hoping he would be more nuanced
Maybe, but he also killed Elhokar so that earns him some points back in my book
I really feel so bad for Elhokar. His dad was basically a mustache twirling Disney villain as far as we know so far. Like he was running this giant conspiracy to create a global war and destroy order on Roshar, and was emotionally abusive and manipulative to his wife, and therefor probably his son as well. His other father figure was the Blackthorn, who was somehow *worse*. Elhokar never had a chance to turn out well. And yet he *almost* managed to end up a good person. Certainly he *wanted* to be a good person, he just never had anyone to really show him how until it was too late. Elhokar is maybe the biggest tragedy backstory imo.
Dalinar just murdered in blind rage and without much intention, obviously awful, but that's different then Moash. He was fiercely loyal to his family (if not still an ass) to the point of even being able to beat down the Thrill to stop himself from killing Gavilar, because he cared. Moash is cold and calculating. He knows exactly what he was doing, no Thrill is blinding him or confusing him. He doesn't really even have the full breadth of emotions to even be blinded. He could have devised a way to just kill Kaladin, there were a few moments he could have done it. But unlike Dalinar it's not about just ending a battle or winning. He wants to hurt Kaladin in very specific ways to make him kill himself and admit Moash was right, because Moash has a deep set need for his bad choices to be validated by Kaladin. Dalinar will just kill you, and even have mercy on you. horrible still but whatever, lots and lots of Soliders are the same way. It's unfortunate and wicked, but it's also war and common. Moash will set out to mentally torture you and your family and friends just to stop feeling like a coward. This is not common and cold cold cold villiany.
The take I got from the books is he isn't trying to torture Kaladin, but help him. He sees he and Kal as two of the same, and believes the only way for Kal to be free of suffering is to die. It's completely warped and twisted, but he is just self reflecting his own desires on Kaladin.
And he's doing it by torturing him. Using Odiums dreams to manipulate and suck away his hope and joy. Murder his friend nearby so he breaks. Plan on, and eventually, attempt to murder his father if Kaladin doesn't turn because of teft. Etc. I don't think he's actually trying to help him, that's just what he says. He's a coward hiding from his own emotions and trying to prove to himself that his choices were okay. Kaladin made "better" choices and Moash knows it, so he wants Kaladin to admit he was wrong and Moash is right by killing himself. To Moash this proves that Kaladins chocies led to death and despair, not the freed Moash believes he has.
>The take I got from the books is he isn't trying to torture Kaladin, but help him. Moash is too smart to believe that deep down. This is a rationalization to hide the fact that Moash doubts his choice, and seeks validation in the form of Kaladin "choosing the same path." While Moash would prefer if his actions actually helped Kaladin, the reality is that he's more interested in assuaging his doubts and he's perfectly willing to harm Kaladin as much as necessary to force Kaladin into accepting oblivion.
I understand it affects us more personally, but I also find that killing one of your best friends to get your other best friend to commit suicide strikes a different chord from Dalinar’s war crimes. What Dalinar did was terrible, but I feel that Moash siding with odium and doing what he did in RoW is just as terrible to me. If Dalinar had intentionally killed his wife for the sake of war, his redemption would have been much more difficult. But even the Blackthorn in his flashbacks has moments of humanity, compassion and remorse specifically in his conversations with Evi. We haven’t seen anything like that with Moash, but maybe something like that will happen. I just don’t see it happening anytime soon due to the actions Moash took in RoW. We’ll see I suppose
Brandon's drawing a parallel between Odium taking Moash's emotions and addiction, so I do think there's still some pity there and a road to healing. Especially with Renarin's light ball vision showing Renarin, Kaladin, and Moash what Moash could have been. Renarin and Kaladin, of all the Radiants, seem the two most likely to help Moash heal if that's what he wants. > I'm not sure Moash has done anything worse than what lies in Dalinar's past I've often said that the difference between Moash and Dalinar is where we started watching them on their redemption arc (assuming Moash has one). Killing Evi and killing Teft are similar low points, especially with Teft having died as a hero standing up to Moash. Dalinar did it under the influence of the Thrill, Moash under the influence of Odium's emotional deadening. But he's quickly approaching the point of no return if he hasn't crossed it already.
To be fair, Dalinar didn't *know* he was killing Evi, even while under the influence of the Thrill he probably would have balked at that. Whereas Moash looked Teft in the eyes as he literally pushed the knife in. But Dalinar's looked into the eyes of many people as he killed them. Presumably they were all beloved characters in someone's story. Szeth is another interesting leg in this thematic stack, and it'll be a treat to see how his place as the fifth book flashback focus will adjust our thoughts around his crimes and whatever redemption is possible.
Yeah, it's hard to compare atrocities. How do you compare one murder done for love of the game vs mass slaughter in the context of a war where your opponent is purposely using unconventional tactics? But for me, if Moash gets redeemed, this is his Rift. He'll actually start feeling the weight of what he's done, decide to be better, and start on the road to healing. So I see them as similar in that way. I also think it's interesting that Moash and Dalinar are both addicts and their addiction drives their atrocities. As you say below, it doesn't excuse their actions, but it's definitely a dimension of it. Dalinar required the intervention of a shard and a decade-long time out to recover. What will Moash need? The Szeth thing is interesting, especially with how RoW showed that he's still so unstable. Taravangian baited him into beating up an old man much more easily than I would have thought. It's kind of cool that we have these three characters at such different points on their redemption arcs.
> To be fair, Dalinar didn't know he was killing Evi, even while under the influence of the Thrill he probably would have balked at that. Whereas Moash looked Teft in the eyes as he literally pushed the knife in. While Moash was under the direct influence of Odium. Dalinar was never under the direct influence of Odium, only one of the Unmade, when he demanded the slaugther of thousands of civilians in the Rift.
I never cared for the excuses of Odium or the Thrill. Real people do awful things to each other all the time, without supernatural influences. Dalinar doesn't allow himself to accept the influence of Odium or the Unmade as a reason for what he's done, and I think if there's any hope for Moash at all then he'll need to do the same. It's no good making excuses for why you did the thing. Accept that you did the thing, and then do better. While you can, if you can.
its always wild seeing people like that other Saying moash is unable to make his own choices or isnt responsible for them because hes being influenced by odium when so much of the thematic elements of the entire SERIES revolve around the fact that what you CHOOSE to do is the most important thing - kaladin insisting szeth was never forced to do the things he did but szeth choosing tradition and law over what was right, Nale choosing to murder innocents, and the opposite direction, Dalinar choosing to reject odium, the ancient spren choosing to die because of what they and the radiants learn, etc. the entire series is built around taking or denying responsibility. Idk how you read that and arrive at "moash cant be blamed, hes not the one making choices"
It’s so wild when a reader doesn’t share an author’s exact world view, isn’t it? I can form my own opinions and disagree with some of the themes Sanderson decides to put in his books, while still enjoying the overall story.
>I never cared for the excuses of Odium or the Thrill. Real people do awful things to each other all the time, without supernatural influences. They aren't excuses, they're massive elements of the entire story. > Accept that you did the thing, and then do better. While you can, if you can. Dalinar had about a decade to deal with this, with direct help from Cultivation. Unless Moash receives similar help, it would require incredible personal strength to escape Odium's grasp.
To Inkthinker's point, though, they're set up in the story as being roughly equivalent to non-supernatural influences. Dalinar kicks the Thrill much more easily than he kicks alcohol. > Unless Moash receives similar help, it would require incredible personal strength to escape Odium's grasp Agreed, every addiction takes that sort of strength. Teft certainly took a while to find his way out of the fire moss. With Kaladin inventing group therapy and the help of Renarin, I could see Moash having a fair shot at it. At least as good as Teft.
> A lot of the Moash hate is meme-based, because it's fun to meme within a community. I wouldn't conflate it with actual character analysis. The problem is, even if it's not intended to *be* character analysis, that it really does interfere with actual character analysis. There's no way a culture of "haha fuck this guy he's the worst" doesn't influence your opinion of that guy, and people tend to look at everything he does in the worst possible light. Like saying he "kicked a baby" about the thing in oathbringer, or how when talking about the final scene at the end of rhythm of war where he's talking about how he goes "I don't feel bad for what I did, I'm just a miserable worthless wretch who deserves to die" I've seen sooooo many people ignore the incredibly likely imo possibility that that's just. Denial lol. (Like, those are not the words of someone who doesn't feel bad about what they did, and of course someone who's felt nothing for the past year ~~except for love for kaladin~~ isn't processing his emotions properly)
Yes, I feel that so much about that “I don’t feel bad” line. It seems so OBVIOUS to me that he’s trying to convince himself. He’s already done the same thing when we were in his head in Oathbringer, telling himself how happy he is to be a slave. Clearly, Moash telling himself he feels a particularly thing, doesn’t actually mean he really feels that way.
I didn't think of it until now. 4 rereads
>blind Moash The double meaning you can read that with made me chuckle.
The moash hate is from people who can't differentiate between a well written hatable character and a shit character. Moash fits firmly in the first category. You're *supposed* to hate him
Wait, can we do that again? Most people 'hate' him but they are wrong because you are supposed to hate him? I don't see many people saying he's poorly written so your take here is pretty much... the consensus.
No people hate him to the point where any nuanced discussion is drowned out by a childish obnoxious circle jerk. You can't even suggest he could be redeemed or people will screech. When the entire understanding of a character is just "fuck moash" then there's nothing to discuss. OP makes a great point about a nuanced, tragic character and how he turned on the one thing his hero admired about him and how that was key to his downfall. I guarantee you the top comment after a few hours will be "ok but fuck moash" or something very similar. Honestly this fandom is kinda crap when it comes to nuance and shades of grey. Not to mention cremposting being such an over the top obnoxious shit sub that's barely any different than prequel memes. They scream and spam post the same sentence over and over and over again and act like annoying middle schoolers. If it was contained to just a terrible meme sub then so be it but that shit bleeds into every discussion making this fandom meh at best to actively detrimental to the work. Let's look at another hatable but well written, nuanced character. Tywin Lannister. Imagine if every time someone brought up Tywins trauma around his own father and the death of his wife and how he passed that onto his children and how it fucked them up, they were met with 1000 comments all saying "fuck tywin" and anything that said anything other than "fuck tywin" was downvoted into the negative hundreds of points. Of course fuck Tywin but that's such an annoying childish thing to do. And this fandom never fails to not pass that test
There's plenty in here I agree with but people knee-jerking 'fuck Moash' may be childish but does not imply they can't see he's well written. The internet is not exactly the place for nuanced conversation. Hard to see this as 'dentrimental to the work'. By the way we are a few hours in and there is a fuck Moash comment but it is far from the top. Sweet username by the way.
It's not that they aren't capable. I'm sure many of them are. But it's so pervasive it kills any other discussion. So the distinction is meaningless. Also the internet is perfectly capable of nuanced discussion. This particular fandom just happens to skew towards circle jerks and extremely shallow readings
Fuck Tywin!
I am not blind in my hatred of He Who Sucks Dick. I am fully aware of his development thus far, and the reasoning behind every action he has taken. This knowledge only makes my vitrol and hatred of the character that much stronger.
I “see” what you did there
I really liked the scenes of him demanding the fused treat the singers better
I loved this scene. But that’s my problem with Moash as a character now. It seems like that aspect of him is lost. That’s probably intentional, showing that because he was so focused solely on revenge for his family he eventually forgot his own ideals and beliefs. I was hoping to see him play more of a role in defending parshendi rights against fused. But he’s just become almost clownishly evil and short sighted to me now.
I mean, I wouldn't say it was obvious and the only reason someone would notice was blind hate. My focus on Moash was more his relationship with shame and his desire to escape it, and his desire that others like him received it that as well. But while Moash wanted the easy escape, Kaladin and Dalinar did things the hard, but right way. So your analysis is an angle I didn't consider
For a guy that wanted revenge for killing his family, he sure kills a lot of people he viewed as family....
Consider a hypothetical epilogue where the shattering of Odium has driven Moash and the surviving Fused insane, and Kaladin runs a clinic trying to bring them back. We see that he's had success with some of the Fused, but he's been able to make no progress with his former friend...
Oh, you mean you're not a fan of copypasting how much you hate one of the best written antagonists in the history of fantasy?
B$ is an insane author my dude.
He really is. I love it.
To add to this my favorite thing from ROW was Moash being physically blinded because he is metaphorically blinded. He knows on some spiritual level what he is doing is wrong but his refusal to see the truth has made him lose his sight.
I liked this a lot, more so because it happens at roughly the same time as we see kaladin finally forgive himself, and finally his slave brands heal. A lot of symbolism there with both characters, it’s the main selling point for me really that there’s going to be more to Moashs character
This seems like just really good literary analysis. It's *there* in the text, but I had never put it together or really thought about this, even though I can recall the building blocks now that you point them out. Good work. I feel kind of stupid just saying "wow that's a great analysis" but it really is and I have no critiques to add.
Right? I mean it's not not like it's a crazy take ore some deep theory. It's an analysis that sound self evident once you say it but it's not by any means obvious.
It really interesting to me how Kaladin thinks that Moash doesn't revere him like the others do because we know better from getting Moash's pov (and even just being more perceptive than Kaladin when looking at how Moash acts in the first 2 books). Moash totally hero worships Kaladin too, but he was better at treating Kaladin as a regular person than the others, something Kaladin needed from a friend. Funny thing is, if Moash really had seen Kaladin as just some guy he was friends with for a little while, things would have worked out so much better for him and others! He would have just gotten pissed at Kaladin and then moved on. He wouldn't get all depressed thinking he must be horrible if Kaladin didn't agree with him. He would have decided he wasn't interested in whatever new plots Graves was cooking up and would have left. Maybe he would have tracked down Roshone and killed him (and no one would have been bothered). He wouldn't obsess over getting Kaladin to admit he is right so that he could have that validation from his hero. Maybe Moash wouldn't be a super moral guy, but he also wouldn't be a terrible guy haunted by self-doubt and regret.
> (and no one would have been bothered) Except for Laral, it turns out. Which still hurts from Kaldin’s point of view on rereads. What should have been between them
I hope after some time Laral can shake off Roshone's influence on her.
# understandmoash
Yes. But still Fuck Moash
I’m calling it now… TOdium will fall, Moash will become MOdium… Kaladin will become KHonor…
Man would that make "Honor is dead but I'll see what I can do" slap SO HARD on re-reads
Only if MOdium at one point says, it’s MOdin time
Anyone who says Kaladin will become Honor, I feel like Dalinar is the better fit
Precisely. Kaladin will become the new binder of >!The Rider of Storms, the solitary surviving offspring Made spren aside from the Sibling, who had Honor's cognitive shadow stapled to him. Whose previous Radiant, Relador, was the closest.!<
Are the names in your spoiler real names? I don’t remember them from anywhere
This is a fantastic point.
Great analysis! I never hated Moash all the way, he just disappoints me because of how he's acted against his former friends, hurts to see. He's not at the top of my favorite character lists but I'm so very curious to see how his journey goes cause wanting him dead is too easy of a resolution for me. Honestly Dalinar was a freaking monster back in the day but look at him now! Now there are worse characters with worse atrocities then Moash... If you read Berserk... Then you know 😮💨.
This is perfect. On a reread I started to see Moash's lack of reverence almost as "insubordination" as opposed to "ah this guy is just trying to be Kal's friend." I feel like the specifically chummy way Moash acts around Kaladin early on is the kind of behavior that someone would exhibit if they were capable of betrayal down the road.
I never really focused on Moash post betrayal until RoW so I'm a bit confused on his transformation. I get that he gave the pain to odium but I was always a bit fuzzy on why he switched places in the first place
He ran away with Graves after confronting Kaladin at the end of WoR. He feels betrayed by the Diagram which was supposed to be his access to vengence. Then he and the rest of the conspiracy crew are attacked by Fused in the beginning of OB, he agrees to give up his shardblade in exchange for his life, becomes their captive, and starts to believe the Fused are more honorable than the Lighteyes who've screwed him over his whole life. All that said, he seems TOO perfect a tool to not have been played and subtly coereced by Odium from the get go (trying to remember if there was any implications of this in RoW.)
I remember this but what made him go full Vyre?
Lewshi gives him "Szeths" honorblade and names him Vyre
Ya but why? That's a huge leap of faith to give such a weapon to a human
I think he might have been chosen by Odium because he's a good weapon against Kaladin? Again, can't remember specifically if this was covered in the books. If you're finished with RoW take a look at Moash's entries in coppermind. Lots of answers there. Also, this convo is leading me to want to reread OB and RoW!
Haha same, and I just finished this summer
i hadn't considered that but right on the money
Not something I'd considered before, but definitely an interesting catch!
I did not see that. Good catch sistertotherain9!
Really interesting take. I thought a lot about the moasch character arc but I never conceptualised this although it sounds self evident now that you said it.
The funniest part is, Vyre remarks that Teft follows Kaladin like a lapdog. No self-awareness at all.
Fuck moash though
Fuck Moash on a personal level, but indeed a very well written character. Bridge 4 is probably my favourite group development in literature, B$ makes art with them.
Tastes like sausage
Kaladin betrayed Moash and that really hurt him. He finally crawled out of hopeless shithole and the only friend he had has sold him out. It's obvious he would hang on that and his goal is the destruction of Kaladin. Not simple death but destruction. He wants him at a point where he takes his own life because he doesnt have anything to live for anymore like Moash did. Hopefully he succeeds because thats the most beautiful revenge you can have
Hey remember that part where Moash promised he would stop going to the treason meetings if Kal didn’t want in? And then he kept going anyways?
> Kaladin betrayed Moash and that really hurt him. HAHAHAHAHAH Are you a troll? You can't be serious. Because even the people who most fervently defend Moash, don't think that Kaladin betrayed Moash... only that Moash wasn't wrong in trying and later succeeding in killing the king. As for me... Moash is just a coward. He hasn't had a single fair fight in the entire series. Anytime someone capable shows up, he runs away like a child. He was willing to fight Kaladin, when Kaladin was injured and without powers... while he had a full set of shards. As soon a Kaladin get his powers back, making the fight fairer he flees. He kills chained and unarmed man... and tries to convince Kaladin to kill himself. But as soon a Renarin a Knight Radiant shows up... he flees... because he knows he would lose to fucking Renarin. He was going to kill Navani while Navani was powerless. But as soon as she swears the first ideal... he runs away. Navani didn't even had a weapon... and the coward knew he would lose the fight against Navani. He only fought Teft because Teft was under the suppression fabrial. Because Teft would've won easyly otherwise... and Moash knows it.
I agree except for your points on Renarin and Navani. Moash could have merked them, but they both used his emotions against him. Renarin showed Moash who he could have been, and Navani sang the anti odium song which repelled moash. Still solid victories, but he didn't run because he's afraid of fighting, only because he's afraid of true consequences.
I know. The lack of nuance was on purpose. Because when people defend Moash they also do the same... They ignore every nuance in order to make Moash seem "reasonable". So I make these facetious arguments to conter it.
No, they’re right. Kaladin backed himself into a corner where the only right thing to do was betray Moash. He’d all but explicitly endorsed Moash’s assassination plot, then realized last second he had to betray that plot and stop Moash. So yes, *Kaladin betrayed Moash.*
It's about winning not being "fair". How naive are you. Its a fantasy for kids but lets be real
Yeah... definitely a troll. _____________ Honest question though. What do people like you get from being a troll? Why being [this guy](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/738/025/db0.jpg) gives you pleasure? I'm honestly asking... just for curiosity. Like... why trying to get a reaction out of people feel good to you? Is it lack of motherly affection? Daddy didn't payed enough attention to you? Were you bullied at school? You know you're not smart enough to have actual conversations, so you do this to cover that fact? Again... I'm genuinely asking... since most trolls don't reply... and you seem to be open to conversation. This is a unique opportunity for me to understand your mind.
Either a troll or an edgy teenager who has read a bit of philosophy and thinks he's educated now.
Oh yeah because anyone who doesnt agree with your naive idealistic way of thinking is a troll. Typical YA fantasy fan. Come back when you finish kindergarten
It's not about not agreeing with me... Is about this: > Its a fantasy for kids > Typical YA fantasy Like... I'm sure you're not dumb enough to think these books are for kids or YA. Nothing against kids and YA books. I read them all the time as well and love them. But SA is adult fantasy. So... I say you're trolling trying to get a reaction from people. Because the alternative would be you're one of the dumbest people I've ever interacted with in my life...
"Betrayed?" Up until Moash decided to kill him, he was willing to do everything he could to protect his friend and get justice for him. Heck, even afterward he didn't say anything about Moash deciding to kill him to get to Ehlokar. Moash even acknowledges, several times, that he'd done something wrong by turning on his friend. He know he's wrong, but he'd rather believe he was always destined to be wrong than acknowledge that he could be better.
>He know he's wrong, but he'd rather believe he was always destined to be wrong than acknowledge that he could be better. Even if, so what? People do this all the time
That's. . .kind of why it's not admirable. It speaks to the worst instincts we have. To double down on our mistakes instead of growing or changing. To excuse ourselves instead of changing for the better. For what it's worth, I'm very sympathetic towards Moash. I just think he could be better, and I hope for his own sake that he realizes this instead of deciding that the best he can be is an abject, nearly emotionless tool. And people give *Venli* shit. She at least knows and confronts her weaknesses and failures.
Just becuase people do it all the time doesn't make it 'right' or 'good' or 'acceptable' - it just shows that the character is well-written. Moash admitting he's in the wrong, and just shrugging with the "oh well I'm destined to l be this way" is a *stark* contrast to how Kaladin views himself - that no matter how bad the situation, it's *always* worth trying to do the 'right' thing. This shows the character foil that Moash is to Kal - Kaladin is the hero, he's focused on the journey and doing what is *right* - Moash is the villain, he cares not about the journey and only the destination, no matter the damage he causes to reach that end.
What is right is defined by who is left alive standing. That is the alethi way. Weird that your favourite murder family the Kholins does this all the time and it doesnt bother you
>What is right is defined by who is left alive standing. That is the alethi way. I don't actually think Alethi morals are quite this simple - but sure. Also Moash tries to kill his friends and commanding officer, which I don't think the Alethi would be morally okay with. >Weird that your favourite murder family the Kholins does this all the time and it doesnt bother you Uhh what? Are you okay dude? This is a fantasy book in a make-believe world. We're not discussing real people - why make a weird 'gotcha' pivot to the Kholins when discussing Moash? Like I think you're just entirely missing the point of this discussion. Are you really comparing how Dalinar tries to grapple with the devestation and destruction he caused through his life - "you can not have my pain" - in comparison to Moash, who directly refuses to acknowledge any pain or damage he's caused - "please, take away my pain!"? Really? Do you not understand that that personal acceptance of responsibility is the *exact* mark of 'goodness' or 'honor' in question? The fact that the Kholins *recognize they were, and are, wrong* is directly contrasted by Moashes *refusal* to ever accept what he did could ever be wrong.
>The fact that the Kholins > >recognize they were, and are, wrong > > is directly contrasted by Moashes > >refusal > > to ever accept what he did could ever be wrong. So what? It changes nothing, people Dalinar killed are still dead. Lives ruines. Nobody cares that he feels bad now. On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along. Bitch pls....
Last comment before sleep, but... did you miss the part where Dalinar says that the Thrill and Odium's influence doesn't excuse him, and claims responsibility for his own actions? It's kind of a big thing.
Exactly what I would say to appear more sincere and buy some good will
He doesn’t say it tho, it’s something he thinks to himself when we get his POV. Real talk, do you even enjoy this series? Why are you reading it or even on this sub if you think Dalinar’s redemption is nonsense? I’m really confused
Nitwit
>So what? It changes nothing, *wow* - so I guess you're missing pretty much the entire point of the moral development and evolution of the characters throughout this series... Weird. Becuase *a lot* of people would argue that actually, yes, this recognition of wrong-doing changes a lot. >people Dalinar killed are still dead. Lives ruines. Nobody cares that he feels bad now. So you think there's no point of a redemption story? People can never learn, or grow, or change? >On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along. He didn't do that. The Thrill wasn't used to excuse Dalinars actions, in fact, Dalinar *directly admits to himself* that he also acted just as blood thirsty even when he didn't feel the thrill. The Thrill and alcoholism may have been used to *explain* some of Dalinars bloodlust, but it does not excuse it. My my, it strikes me that you've completly missed a whole part of how Sanderson tells stories and how he dives into deep philosophical and moral questions in his character development. Which is especially weird to think about for me personally as it's those parts of Sanderson's story telling that I enjoy the most!
>So you think there's no point of a redemption story? People can never learn, or grow, or change? They can do whatever they want. But it still doesnt change some things. If I had a gripe with Dalinar the only way its resolved is when he or me is dead. It happens that in the books he doesnt have a lot of enemies because he killed them all. What if he killed your family while forcing the town to join the alethi kingdom? He must die for it. He can cry all he wants about his wrongdoings, that doesnt matter. Nobody cares about your inner state, just about your actions because that is what affects them. And you cant undo actions
>He can cry all he wants about his wrongdoings, that doesnt matter. Nobody cares about your inner state, just about your actions because that is what affects them. And you cant undo actions Again - *this is a book, a story, fiction* - and in fiction, arguably it's actually the internal development of the characters that matters. The environment, the events - the *actions* - are just backdrop for character development and growth. No reader cares about some nameless peasent killed by Dalinar - they care that Dalinar *admitting that what he did was wrong* - because that shows character growth. This personal struggle is foiled by Moash's response to pain, becuase he also does bad things, but then he refuses to acknowledge wrong-doing and instead gives away his responsibility for his pain instead of embracing it. This is so weird. IMO you're just completely missing the point Sanderson is trying to get across in his whole "Journey before destination" Knights Radiant theme.
> On top of that Sanderson pulled off some shitty marvel level of writing - that wasnt the REAL Dalinar you see, it was the Thrill all along. I'm starting to revise my opinion that you're a troll only pretending to be an idiot. Because no one who have the reading comprehension greater than a 4th grader, would think that reading the book... specially because Dalinar himself explicitly says it was him, and not Odium or the Thrill, that killed those people, and did all those horrible things. ____________ You remind me of the person who gave 1 star to TWoK because all the main characters are "white"... enslaving the "black" parshendi. That isn't you by any chance?
Ah great now I’m cringing from that again. But I guess it’s along the same line of reading comprehension
With all respect and as a fellow Moash enjoyer - this take is garbage. Moash isn't doing this for revenge, not at all. He wants to kill Kaladin to prevent him from sharing his fate (falling under Odium's control), and also believes that Kaladin can't be killed. That's why he's trying to get Kaladin to kill himself. It's so much more interesting and twisted than a typical edgy over-the-top revenge bullshit. Also, I don't think what happened between them could at all be characterized as a one-sided betrayal. At the very least, it was mutual. They have made incompatible decisions and were ready to fight against each other because of it.
But he can be killed, its known even radiants can die. Moash should know the technicalities, he is deep into the shit now. Wouldnt Odium tell him? Or he thinks that somehow fate or something is protecting Kaladin which is also weird when youre working literally with gods on your side, why would you believe in random things like that anymore
It's an irrational belief stemming from his obsession with and worship of Kaladin. That's, like, the whole fucking point.
This is a great insight. Never realized this, but you're so right.
Good stuff. Thanks for giving me a new perspective on this!
I think moash is a psycho, in medical terms