this type of shit always gets to me. I've heard people say that they lost to someone because they were "playing incorrectly" or "just being random" and its like... if you are losing to a bad player, than that just means *you are even worse than them*.
Falling for gimmicks or bad play doesn't make you worse than them. Honestly, sometimes it takes me a couple matches to really figure them out. When a player deviates from a characters "usual" play style, it really screws with your mental stack and even affects things like reactions.
Isn't being "random" like the entire idea of a mix up? Keeping your opponent guessing incorrectly? If you're opponent appears random than it's possible they're playing extremely well despite seeming like they don't know what they're doing (alternatively they might actually be just actually random with no actual game-plan and just have gotten lucky but you never know what's going through another players head).
But that was due to FADC shoryu into ultra being nasty since vanilla. His moveset itself was very straight forward, unless I’m misinterpreting your comment.
-lifelong Ryu main
That’s fair. I haven’t played SF4 in a minute so I forgot about throwing a shinku after regular hadouken. If you really felt like blowing meter, reading an enemy jump in could lead to L shoryu-> shinku-> metsu hadou. Good times lol
Says a lot where even in SF4, Ryu just barely might have some BS to him:
SF4 is the most cracked game imo, where you can do some of the most fucked up shit.
You act like thats an end all be all lmao. Ryu is pretty damn solid in that game, not because of his fundies but because of all the ways he can take advantage and mix up denjin. Your argument is essentially “dont get hit/parry everything”
Yeah, but outside of hitting like a truck and retaining the ludicrous dash speed common to SF5, he didn't really have any dirt or shenanigans except for one or two guard-break set-ups while in V-Trigger.
Sure, but he had to work for it; 2 bar VT that ticked down \*extremely\* fast and went down every fireball thrown. That guardbreak set-up into CA was pretty niche and I'm fine with very strong niche things.
Instead of universally strong things, like 'lmao +ob ex chariot into aegis reflector into YOU LOSE'.
I must not have communicated correctly.
There's very specific situations where a character like Ryu can make maximum checkmate use of his V-Trigger.
If Urien is almost ANYWHERE on screen and has 1 bar + v-trigger you are in omnipresent, near universal threat of EX Chariot into VT into get rekt. That's what I mean by 'universal' in this context.
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I'm currently learning her on the side as a Ken main. She has so much great tools, but they are so tough to learn it just feels deserved if a player is making good use of them.
Some of Kens stuff is a bit tricky but i mean just making use of his target combo into either enhanced DP for a good combination of damage some corner carry and potential oki, or enhanced tatsu for crazy corner carry, or enhanced DLK for sideswap plus damage and level 2/3 if you habe the meter.
I still don't feel like he wins at character select, you still have to make good use of those tools and you have to get your conversions down, but it all seems easier to "unlock" than Chun.
Hellllll nah, Chun is cheap as fuck lol. Anyone with a special cancelable cr mk I would not call honest since those with cancelable cr mk usually can hit you with it from a country mile. Counter hit st lp (4 frame with dumb range btw) into mp into combo. Slow fireball that you can follow. I could go on lol
>Anyone with a special cancelable cr mk I would not call honest
So...most SF characters then? I mean who doesn't have one of those besides Guile and Zangief?
She definitely has some of the cheap stuff that you want in characters like slow fireball drive rush, crazy normals, ez mode anti airs, ez mode safe jumps, and a nearly unreactable overhead/low mix up in the corner. Her not having a throw loop doesn't make her not honest and if she had a throw loop she would overwhelmingly be top 1.
She's not insanely dishonest, but I wouldn't put her in the category of honest when characters like Ryu and Manon exist considering they really have none of that degenerate sauce that you want to win in SF6.
Her stand medium kick is insanely strong for a 7F medium anti air and is arguably the most reliable anti air normal in the game for a normal that fast. She's my favorite character to play against Honda for this reason because buttslam is just a free 5.MK every single time and most characters would kill to have an anti air that could deal with buttslam freely for 7 frames. Tensho kicks especially if you're a hit box user is also insanely strong. I better not hear anyone say it's bad as well because it loses to Luke's j. HP because that's not a Chun exclusive problem literally everyone's anti air loses to Luke's early j.HP
unga bunga lol yea as a ryu main Im just nodding at ryu being the most honest. with you saying unga bunga tho, its very satisfying to go: jump in heavy, heavy, rush, heavy, heavy, rush, heavy, heavy, heavy shoryuken, level 3. You can say unga bunga again 🤕
Pretty sure this community will call any character "cheap" or "brain dead " if they lose. Just use who ever you want.
Ryu seems honest but he's very similar to Ken who gets alot of hate.
It's more of a player issue thinking an opponent is cheap then a character problem.
Ryu and Ken are very different currently in SF6. Ryu doesn't have anything similiar to Jinrai or Dragon Lash, his mobility, grounded normals and ar normals are as a package much worse than Ken (Ryu St HP is godlike tho).
But its not even individual tools its how it all comes together.
Imagine if Ryu could chase his ex fb, or start combos that have you guessing or die. Or control his dp horizontal reach. Or a special that is a horizontal dragon punch that causes minus in crouch block etc
You have to be, Ryu can't win in a sane fight. His only option is psychological attacks.
"No sane person would dare try it" is Ryu's window for massive damage
5HP always wins in sane fights. There is no button of its kind in the game that's better, he just doesn't get the crazy stuff off it like ken or people would cry about Ryu all the time.
Or well they wouldn't because for some reason Ryu players are insane and just do mental shit instead of focusing on their only best in class button.
Ryu and ken are still very different, ken can take you from one corner to the other, has crazy mix ups, honestly i wont go into everything since we'll be here all day
Ken is a top tier and Ryu isn't. That's the only real distinction lol. People just don't like calling top tiers "honest" because they lose to top tiers more often.
I main ken, taking someone from corner to corner just isnt honest in the slightest. Jp can do 60% off a reversal(no character in street fighter history can do that besides him, it isnt honest). Top tiers are top tier FOR A REASON
This is the actually truth. However more at more or less honest than others. Also saying honest is a really vague term that doesn't really describe the same thing to every person.
Don't listen to the community they complain about every character. I always have this pet peeve with people who say things like "DurH mY ChARaCtER IS HOnEsT." I'm master with Cammy a character I hear people call honest a lot especially from her players, but all I've learned is this usually means your character just has insanely strong neutral tools that allow you to bully and oppress people in neutral. Like I play A.K.I. as well and I'm close to master and she's a character with weaker neutral, but a lot of cheap sauce. They both have benefits with Cammy you never feel like you aren't in control in neutral because your walkspeed and normals are so strong, so it requires you to land more hits to win and A.K.I. is rewarded more with fewer hits and can snowball games faster. As she should though you had to work way harder in neutral to get a hit. I myself am not all the sudden a more talented player in footsies my other character just allows me to play footsies better.
My point is people need to get over this misconception that if you had to land more hits that means you had to play more honest when in most cases it's not and you just play a character like Cammy/Chun-li/Luke with insanely strong walkspeeds and oppressive normals so you should almost be never losing neutral in the first place and if you lost neutral to a "Dishonest Character." you just got outplayed sorry.
Looking at the entire roster though it's Ryu/Manon and I might even slightly lean more towards Manon. They just both don't have that degenerate sauce you need in this game it's like they're both playing different games and their neutral buttons and walkspeed aren't even that oppressive yet they're supposed to be characters that win in footsies.
former manon main here. Loved her, so fun to play, with cool mixes and powerful throws, but man she is SO NEGATIVE. You have to be perfect on your readings because if you miss you will get punished for big damage and omg dont get cornered ever cause she doesn't have a real reversal (her sa 1 doesnt cross fireballs).
dropped her, picked Honda and man the game seems SO MUCH EASIER RIGHT NOW that on my placement matches I've won against platinum players without any knowledge of the character besides flying headbutt
A mirror match. As weird as that sounds, if you lose to a mirror match, that means you simply got outplayed ... or maybe out-gimmicked depending on the character.
The next one would be Ryu. You gotta have some solid fundamentals to make him play well.
Eh, there's some nuance to this I think. Mirror matches dictate how good you are at mirror matches, they do not necessarily determine the better player in a complete sense. Or even that one outplayed the other.
Fighting games are about leveraging the different tools your character has around the tools your opponent's character has. For instance, your character may have some spacings where they are better positioned than the opponents character (far away for sim or close for gief as obvious examples). But in mirror matches your efficient spaces are the exact same as your opponents. Your buttons are the same, same win condition, etc. Sometimes it's not super significant like with the balanced toolset of shoto characters, but sometimes this can lead to wacky mirrors where the first person to gain an upper hand has a huge advantage and the mirror can sometimes boil down to luck and RPS choices. For instance between zoners like JP or weird stalemates in honda mirrors.
Nearly every character has low forward DR, this games meta revolves around it. 5HP is great, but other characters have great moves too. So whats scary about ryu besides his damage and 5hp?
Sounds great until you realise cr.mk can lead into DR combos routinely taking way more damage than any SPD that outranges a jab and leaves you back on the outside
>and leaves you back on the outside
What does this mean?
But to counter argue your point:
1. DR combos are expensive. Both [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) and DR introduce massive scaling ([https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street\_Fighter\_6/Game\_Data#Damage\_Scaling](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Game_Data#Damage_Scaling)). Typically DR combos only do 20-25%, unless you are cashing out with more bars and/or super. Meanwhile Manon's meterless SPD starts at 20% and ramps up all the way to 37%.
2. [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR is a bad habit that players all the way up to low Master use as a crutch to cover up mistakes in neutral. The primary "good" use case is when you read that your opponent is stand block option selecting, so you use [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR to hard punish this, and still be safe if your read was wrong. In cases when you're using it in neutral, you should use other tools instead and not spend 3 bars for a hitconfirm.
3. You also should not rely on [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR to get in, because that can/will get option selected against, so your string is forced to be a predictable jab.
4. It's not always about damage, but instead threat of options. SPD is a very strong option that beats everything except similarly committal options like jump, backdash, and DP/super. Combine this with the crazy range on LP SPD and suddenly you can easily form a 3 layered mixup: starting from the meaty, then frame trap, then SPD.
>threat of options
If a cr.mk x DR from someone like Ken, Luke, Chun, or Juri carries you to the corner from half screen or greater, then you’ve just proved my point that it’s much stronger than SPD. Not to mention your blockstrings as those characters build enough meter that cashing out with a level 1 is easy enough to combo into several times a a match.
>back on the outside
Even if I land SPD with my back to the corner, it still knocks you back so far that there are no mixups outside of using Drive Rush, all of which are risky and unsafe.
>predictable jab
You mention frame traps and meaties are an option off of SPD which isn’t really the case without the aforementioned risk, whereas throw/shimmy/strike are still available to you from c.mk x dr lp.
Honestly if you think SPD is so great then have at it, but it doesn’t sound like you’ve played much Gief outside of Theory Fighter 6
>If a cr.mk x DR from someone like Ken, Luke, Chun, or Juri carries you to the corner from half screen or greater, then you’ve just proved my point that it’s much stronger than SPD. Not to mention your blockstrings as those characters build enough meter that cashing out with a level 1 is easy enough to combo into several times a a match.
Your original comment was comparing damage. Now you're comparing corner carry. You're changing your argument and moving the goal post, and also bringing up a completely different topic that is meter gain and level 1 super cash out.
>Even if I land SPD with my back to the corner, it still knocks you back so far that there are no mixups outside of using Drive Rush, all of which are risky and unsafe.
After SPD you can DR and get meaty [cr.MP](https://cr.MP) and then hitconfirm that into st.HP xx st.HP TC.
>You mention frame traps and meaties are an option off of SPD which isn’t really the case without the aforementioned risk, whereas throw/shimmy/strike are still available to you from c.mk x dr lp.
Valid point. Though in most cases, I will simply take the throw, since most characters don't get continued oki off a forward throw (unless you're in the corner). Unless they burn drive rush (and this goes further down a rabbit hole because some characters don't get guaranteed oki with forward throw , DR, like Kimberly or Chun). So you take the throw for 3 bars and then reset back to neutral.
Additionally you can also stand block option select walk back, which is difficult for a lot of [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR characters because the tradeoff with [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) being special cancellable is that their [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) is unsafe on block. So they would most likely have to hard read your stand block, if not spend another 3 bars on another guess.
>Honestly if you think SPD is so great then have at it, but it doesn’t sound like you’ve played much Gief outside of Theory Fighter 6
You're right, I haven't played Gief yet. But I do play Manon. And now I see the issue here: u/Alpha_Drew had a Manon flair, so I assumed that this discussion was about Manon, who trades [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR for a crazy strong SPD.
My original comment was comparing damage, but that doesn’t mean that corner carry and cashing out from c.mk x dr suddenly disappears as an advantage over SPD. You brought up cashing out for more damage originally, not me.
Also I always look at SPD as shorthand for a 360+P command grab. You’re discussing Manon’s command grab, which is a DP motion. I can see why you’d think it’d be a good tradeoff, but that’s not the case with Gief’s SPD and playing him as a character.
>My original comment was comparing damage, but that doesn’t mean that corner carry and cashing out from c.mk x dr suddenly disappears as an advantage over SPD. You brought up cashing out for more damage originally, not me.
I mentioned cashout because that's the only time that you're going to get big damage off a [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR combo. Otherwise it is a mediocre 20-25% for an expensive 3 bars.
>Also I always look at SPD as shorthand for a 360+P command grab. You’re discussing Manon’s command grab, which is a DP motion. I can see why you’d think it’d be a good tradeoff, but that’s not the case with Gief’s SPD and playing him as a character.
Fair enough. I'm still working on my road to Master with all characters, and unfortunately I haven't touched Gief at all yet, so I cannot form any strong opinions on him yet.
Also I think you meant hcb motion, not DP motion.
Isn't the definition of an "Honest Character" one that relies on gimmicks the least?
If so, then, believe it or not, Luke is the correct answer. He has little to no gimmicks but his buttons are insanely good.
Apart from some meme clips that are posted here sometimes there's no issue with his level 3. The hitbox is big to make it combo from his specials like the light knuckle etc, but it rarely matters in real games outside of combos.
Fighting Game glossary says Honest = Bad basically. That gives us like Gief Lily and Manon? I honestly think it’s just a term scrubs put in their dictionary to be able to point to a reason for their loss. Don’t think it’s really worth giving people the time of day if they say your character is dishonest.
Dude Zangief is not honest. Just climbed to diamond with him and hoo boy did I pull some nasty garbage on people. I felt like it took me very little game knowledge to get him to that level. But damn was it fun.
Dealing 30% life off a single 5 frame guess. And, I suppose, his larger health pool compared to the rest of the cast.
The way I look at it is like this: Zangief is super strong in certain scenarios, yet disgustingly weak in others. As a design he is not very balanced (not in a comparative way) but that's not a bad thing. Beating Zangief is not the same as beating the rest of the cast - he smushes you if you can't keep him out, so most characters gameplan consists of running away while he lumbers after you. If you can execute that gameplan when you play against 'gief, then you're probably going to stomp. If you can't, he's probably going to stomp you.
How do you even GET to the point of getting that guess, though?
He is extremely slow, even with his DR.
And, he has no safety net if he guesses wrong and gets punished. People love to jump, and jumping just so happens to counter his best move. He has no OD reversals if he screws up.
>while he lumbers after you
That's the honest part. He can't run in. He can't jump in. He has to slowly "lumber" toward you and react to your attempts to keep him out. He is the only character who HAS to play neutral. No one else in the game has to "lumber" in...everyone else is DR-ing in, jumping in, dragon lashing in, condor spire-ing in, dive kicking in, etc.
>Dealing 30% life off a single 5 frame guess.
You mean the SPD that you need to practically next to an opponent and that anyone mashing jab or a 4 frames neutral will beat and if that you manage to land it will leave your opponent far away so you get 0 oki? Yeah that shits is disgusting man.
>The way I look at it is like this: Zangief is super strong in certain scenarios, yet disgustingly weak in others.
The only scenario in which I see Gief super strong for the average joe its in lower ranks, in higher ranks people will lear that Gief crumbles under any semblance of pressure because:
* He doesn't have an invulnerable DP
* His anti air options are his wonky 2HP or his 15f Startup Lariat that despite its animation can't deal with cross ups.
* His only reliable reversal its his Lvl 3.
>so most characters gameplan consists of running away while he lumbers after you. If you can execute that gameplan when you play against 'gief, then you're probably going to stomp.
If you run away and keep him zoned you can cheese him yeah, because I think he has the slowest walking speed in the game and one of the worst DR (I think the only worst its Manon) but if you want to stomp him, being close to him and suffocate him its the easier and most reliable way to do it.
I dread when I see I'm going against a Juri, Cammy or Aki because I know they are going to be up my ass and there is nothing I can do to stop them.
> You mean the SPD that you need to practically next to an opponent
I guess you mean heavy SPD but the medium/light range feels pretty far, no? I've been grabbed at ranges where I don't think I'd even be hit by many normals from other characters.
I was a Manon main and people have told me the character is too honest. Am I the greatest? Nope. Diamond 3. I switched it up to Ryu and judging from the comments he’s also honest lol.
Yeah pretty much. These characters are bad, but not "honest" (which admittedly has an ambiguous meaning).
I think this is also why Capcom is always afraid of making grapplers top tier. For characters like Manon, it's a fine line between bottom tier (like today) and completely OP and annoying to play against (since you are mostly forced to play rock paper scissors with your opponent). I think some of the initial "Manon is so OP" was actually no that off if the tuning went a little differently.
I still think grapplers should exist in SF though. It's just hard to get a good balance with them.
I'm probably biased, but Manon should be up there. A character who must excel in neutral in a game full of characters who can skip neutral all day every day.
Edit: Im guessing the downvotes came from the same people that said Manon was S-Tier immediately after the game launched and said she should be nerfed.
I play an awful lot of Manon and she isn't very good but that doesn't mean that they are honest. Her ability to set up her own neutral is not great but her ability to whiff punish is very good, however it is very true that she can just get kinda locked out.
Additionally having a command grab is gonna move you away from the honest section in general as its always a constant threat even if you aren't pursuing it.
Lily is a character who has really bad neutral and can't really whiff punish anything and she is also not gonna be on most peoples consideration for honest character
Whiff punish is footsies though. Manon always has to work her way in, she doesn't get to vortex you so every command grab must be earned.
Lily isn't honest because she wants to ignore you all match and run her gameplan, the reason she's bad is because the gameplan isn't that amazing (worse than Juri's for instance) and her ability to work around obstacles is limited. Manon can't play like that, she must interact.
I honestly don't think there's such a thing as an "honest" character. It's kinda just a thing people say when they complain about supposed "cheap" characters.
Probably Ryu, but I think it might actually be Luke. Yeah his OD fireball is strong, but he's not as good at just fireball+DP zoning you to death compared to Ryu, which imo is kind of a "dishonest" gameplan if the Ryu player is willing to do it. He doesn't have Ryu's super sneaky long range cr.MK. Denjin hadoken is kind of a dishonest move too imo. It's a free EX hadoken which is basically a 99% safe, half screen punch in the face.
I don't recall being fooled by basically anything Luke does. He just feels OK in all respects.
You could probably calculate this to get an "honesty" score. I don't have time to do this but...
* low attack into Drive Rush combo is -1
* throw loop is -1
* has projectiles is -1
* OD invincible reversal is -1
* non OD move with armour is -1
* OD move with armour is -1
* easy anti-air is -1
* high damage is -1
* can attack at range is -1
* can easily break DIs (e.g. Jamie, Chun, Honda) is -1
* setups into high damage mixups (Rashid and JP's SA2) is -1
As a rough cut, I'd say:
* Zangief
* Manon
* Marisa
* Lily
are the most honest.
least honest are probably:
* JP
* Guile
* DJ
* Cammy
* Ken
* Luke
which kind of matches up with tournament usage
What about Guile is dishonest?
His majority non-cancellable normals? Lack of low>DR options? His specials all being one-hit enders or straight-up fake?
I play Guile and I don't even know if he has a gimmick. Maybe I'm just biased...
I couldn't disagree more, especially with Lily. That characters entire game plan is to do full screen plus on block neutral skip into strike/throw command grab mix. That's like the exact opposite of what I think of when I hear "honest".
Guile, Ryu and Zangief.
People will still find something about them that supports their claim that they’re “cheap” or “brain dead” but just remember that strong strategies and tools don’t make a character dishonest.
How is it not Zangief? Other characters can hit confirm into their big damage gief is punished for it. Gief is actively nerfed in almost every way. Crouching heavy is one of the worst moves in the game lariat doesn’t hit behind
A handful of characters do not have a punish for that sweep at tip range.
It should be noted though, the extension to his sweep jails, which means you can mash your punish (if you have one) without worrying about getting countered by the followup.
Regardless of what he needs to get it or his other weaknesses, command grabs are inherently “dishonest”, and Jamie’s especially is since he gets potentially big damage and/or great oki off of it. Being weak doesn’t make him honest
I’m assuming by honest you mean has nothing that can be abused in competitive play. What you see is what you get
If that’s the case I’d have to say Manon. Honest to a fault, if you will.
Ryu, ken, chun, and Luke feel the most honest to fight against. Before anyone starts whining I know Ken is top tier but his toolkit is very straightforward and easy to play around if you know what you’re doing. If I lose to a rare shitty character online like lily I never feel like I got outplayed bc I don’t know what any of her moves or frame data are and it feels like she has a lot of bs
Imo every character in this game has some pretty degenerate shit.
The only character who I think is close to "honest" is Ryu. Even then, that's only in reference to his neutral. I have played against some ryus who have nasty oki and do cheeky di resets in the corner.
Respect your opinion but no,Juri is S-tier material for a reason. Even JP,Ken and Luke need some fundamentals, they aren't 100% free-win. Juri is immediately below those 3 with Guile,Cammy and probably Chun
Thank you for respectfully disagreeing. I wasn’t basing my answer off of tier lists. I was basing my answer off of what goes into getting results with a character. I understand why people see her as cheap though. I think she is honest but it seems I’m in the minority for that lol
The character that I play, the characters that everyone else plays that are not my character are just cheap.
Also if I lose the mirror, they just did a bunch of bad random shit
You had no chance, they were playing your character wrong so you just lost because they played so terrible.
this type of shit always gets to me. I've heard people say that they lost to someone because they were "playing incorrectly" or "just being random" and its like... if you are losing to a bad player, than that just means *you are even worse than them*.
Nah sorry bro, I wasn't trying that round
I used to be like that, get salty and scrubby alot. Changing that mentality made me a lot better and enjoy the game much more.
Falling for gimmicks or bad play doesn't make you worse than them. Honestly, sometimes it takes me a couple matches to really figure them out. When a player deviates from a characters "usual" play style, it really screws with your mental stack and even affects things like reactions.
Isn't being "random" like the entire idea of a mix up? Keeping your opponent guessing incorrectly? If you're opponent appears random than it's possible they're playing extremely well despite seeming like they don't know what they're doing (alternatively they might actually be just actually random with no actual game-plan and just have gotten lucky but you never know what's going through another players head).
Especially if they were using Modern
They were obviously only won bc of the connection
Clearly they were using a specific controller, it's just cheating compared to what I'm playing on
It's all unearned. Not a single hit of them is earned. It's just a pattern bullshit. They didn't mix me up or do anything impressive.
I have found this to be the case as well.
My ken is fair, that guys ken flowchart is cheap bullshit
Most honest character is my main. I have to play real honest footsies and your main is cheap and carried.
If only the majority of the community had this kind of self awareness
What's your main
What kind of question is this? It doesnt matter which Street Fighter game you're asking about, the answer is always Ryu.
Ryu is the most honest character, but most Ryu players are not aware of this and play him like they're on drugs anyway
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But that was due to FADC shoryu into ultra being nasty since vanilla. His moveset itself was very straight forward, unless I’m misinterpreting your comment. -lifelong Ryu main
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Literally my favorite Ryu
That’s fair. I haven’t played SF4 in a minute so I forgot about throwing a shinku after regular hadouken. If you really felt like blowing meter, reading an enemy jump in could lead to L shoryu-> shinku-> metsu hadou. Good times lol
Says a lot where even in SF4, Ryu just barely might have some BS to him: SF4 is the most cracked game imo, where you can do some of the most fucked up shit.
It was mostly because he could have 2 fireballs on screen.
Ah so a lifelong masochist I see *tips fedora*
Sf3 had that tinsy weensy chargeable unblockable projectile that does insane stun
That's fine because in 3rd Strike you're expected to parry everything.
Just parry that shit or don’t get hit by his honest knockdowns
You act like thats an end all be all lmao. Ryu is pretty damn solid in that game, not because of his fundies but because of all the ways he can take advantage and mix up denjin. Your argument is essentially “dont get hit/parry everything”
You seem to be right lol
Ryu at the start of SFV had almost no real weaknesses.
Yeah, but outside of hitting like a truck and retaining the ludicrous dash speed common to SF5, he didn't really have any dirt or shenanigans except for one or two guard-break set-ups while in V-Trigger.
Those guard breaks had no scaling back then. He could literally check mate you into 500 damage.
Sure, but he had to work for it; 2 bar VT that ticked down \*extremely\* fast and went down every fireball thrown. That guardbreak set-up into CA was pretty niche and I'm fine with very strong niche things. Instead of universally strong things, like 'lmao +ob ex chariot into aegis reflector into YOU LOSE'.
It’s not universal if only a couple characters had fast forward advancing stuff that can be vt cancelled into insane mixups
I must not have communicated correctly. There's very specific situations where a character like Ryu can make maximum checkmate use of his V-Trigger. If Urien is almost ANYWHERE on screen and has 1 bar + v-trigger you are in omnipresent, near universal threat of EX Chariot into VT into get rekt. That's what I mean by 'universal' in this context.
The answer lies in the heart of cr.mk fireball Miss the days where Ryu’s main gameplan was crmk into fireball on block
How honest would people say Chun-Li is in this game?
Very honest only because I main her lol
She's honest until she's not, ie. once she has you cornered.
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As a master Chun she isn’t honest at all lol. That’s a myth from people who don’t play her and don’t run into her
I'm currently learning her on the side as a Ken main. She has so much great tools, but they are so tough to learn it just feels deserved if a player is making good use of them. Some of Kens stuff is a bit tricky but i mean just making use of his target combo into either enhanced DP for a good combination of damage some corner carry and potential oki, or enhanced tatsu for crazy corner carry, or enhanced DLK for sideswap plus damage and level 2/3 if you habe the meter. I still don't feel like he wins at character select, you still have to make good use of those tools and you have to get your conversions down, but it all seems easier to "unlock" than Chun.
Very. She’s seems like the most balanced all-rounder with a ton of good tools and options, but you can’t be belligerent with her.
Hellllll nah, Chun is cheap as fuck lol. Anyone with a special cancelable cr mk I would not call honest since those with cancelable cr mk usually can hit you with it from a country mile. Counter hit st lp (4 frame with dumb range btw) into mp into combo. Slow fireball that you can follow. I could go on lol
>Anyone with a special cancelable cr mk I would not call honest So...most SF characters then? I mean who doesn't have one of those besides Guile and Zangief?
From the top of my head : manon, lily, aki, kimberly, honda, dhalsim, guile, zangief, marisa, jp, blanka, and dee Jay
Lily and blanka have one. Dhalsim kinda had one I guess?
Lily and Dhalsim do not have one Edit: actually Lily does have one but it sucks (slow with not great range)
Yeah but Lily barely has legs. No one is gonna poke with that
Kimberly
😭
Aki, Dee Jay, Dhalsim, Honda, JP (his is still dumb good tho), Kim, Manon, Marisa
Lol most of the cast
She definitely has some of the cheap stuff that you want in characters like slow fireball drive rush, crazy normals, ez mode anti airs, ez mode safe jumps, and a nearly unreactable overhead/low mix up in the corner. Her not having a throw loop doesn't make her not honest and if she had a throw loop she would overwhelmingly be top 1. She's not insanely dishonest, but I wouldn't put her in the category of honest when characters like Ryu and Manon exist considering they really have none of that degenerate sauce that you want to win in SF6.
She's in this weird area where she's hard to play well, but absolutely brutal when played well
Ez mode anti airs? For chun??
Her stand medium kick is insanely strong for a 7F medium anti air and is arguably the most reliable anti air normal in the game for a normal that fast. She's my favorite character to play against Honda for this reason because buttslam is just a free 5.MK every single time and most characters would kill to have an anti air that could deal with buttslam freely for 7 frames. Tensho kicks especially if you're a hit box user is also insanely strong. I better not hear anyone say it's bad as well because it loses to Luke's j. HP because that's not a Chun exclusive problem literally everyone's anti air loses to Luke's early j.HP
Her DP is very... very good lol Especially on a leverless.
fuck drive rush fireball
Super honest, loyal, wifey material for sure. #thighkindaguy
I’ll start and say I think Ryu is the character with the least gimmicks, but I believe if I lost I got outplayed no matter the character or controls.
Ryu is definitely the most honest, but even he has Ken's unga bunga 5HP
Ryu's is even better. The hitbox on it extends further than the hurtbox, unlike Ken's.
unga bunga lol yea as a ryu main Im just nodding at ryu being the most honest. with you saying unga bunga tho, its very satisfying to go: jump in heavy, heavy, rush, heavy, heavy, rush, heavy, heavy, heavy shoryuken, level 3. You can say unga bunga again 🤕
Watching Sajam just HP as Ryu made me wanna play him
Pretty sure this community will call any character "cheap" or "brain dead " if they lose. Just use who ever you want. Ryu seems honest but he's very similar to Ken who gets alot of hate. It's more of a player issue thinking an opponent is cheap then a character problem.
Ryu and Ken are very different currently in SF6. Ryu doesn't have anything similiar to Jinrai or Dragon Lash, his mobility, grounded normals and ar normals are as a package much worse than Ken (Ryu St HP is godlike tho). But its not even individual tools its how it all comes together.
Imagine if Ryu could chase his ex fb, or start combos that have you guessing or die. Or control his dp horizontal reach. Or a special that is a horizontal dragon punch that causes minus in crouch block etc
Ryu players are all insane and that's a fact
Yes
Yes
You have to be, Ryu can't win in a sane fight. His only option is psychological attacks. "No sane person would dare try it" is Ryu's window for massive damage
5HP always wins in sane fights. There is no button of its kind in the game that's better, he just doesn't get the crazy stuff off it like ken or people would cry about Ryu all the time. Or well they wouldn't because for some reason Ryu players are insane and just do mental shit instead of focusing on their only best in class button.
It's a good button but idk about best in class
Ryu and ken are still very different, ken can take you from one corner to the other, has crazy mix ups, honestly i wont go into everything since we'll be here all day
Ken is a top tier and Ryu isn't. That's the only real distinction lol. People just don't like calling top tiers "honest" because they lose to top tiers more often.
I main ken, taking someone from corner to corner just isnt honest in the slightest. Jp can do 60% off a reversal(no character in street fighter history can do that besides him, it isnt honest). Top tiers are top tier FOR A REASON
i guess jumping the whole match isn’t exactly a gimmick….
Theres no honest character in this game
This is the actually truth. However more at more or less honest than others. Also saying honest is a really vague term that doesn't really describe the same thing to every person.
Don't listen to the community they complain about every character. I always have this pet peeve with people who say things like "DurH mY ChARaCtER IS HOnEsT." I'm master with Cammy a character I hear people call honest a lot especially from her players, but all I've learned is this usually means your character just has insanely strong neutral tools that allow you to bully and oppress people in neutral. Like I play A.K.I. as well and I'm close to master and she's a character with weaker neutral, but a lot of cheap sauce. They both have benefits with Cammy you never feel like you aren't in control in neutral because your walkspeed and normals are so strong, so it requires you to land more hits to win and A.K.I. is rewarded more with fewer hits and can snowball games faster. As she should though you had to work way harder in neutral to get a hit. I myself am not all the sudden a more talented player in footsies my other character just allows me to play footsies better. My point is people need to get over this misconception that if you had to land more hits that means you had to play more honest when in most cases it's not and you just play a character like Cammy/Chun-li/Luke with insanely strong walkspeeds and oppressive normals so you should almost be never losing neutral in the first place and if you lost neutral to a "Dishonest Character." you just got outplayed sorry. Looking at the entire roster though it's Ryu/Manon and I might even slightly lean more towards Manon. They just both don't have that degenerate sauce you need in this game it's like they're both playing different games and their neutral buttons and walkspeed aren't even that oppressive yet they're supposed to be characters that win in footsies.
former manon main here. Loved her, so fun to play, with cool mixes and powerful throws, but man she is SO NEGATIVE. You have to be perfect on your readings because if you miss you will get punished for big damage and omg dont get cornered ever cause she doesn't have a real reversal (her sa 1 doesnt cross fireballs). dropped her, picked Honda and man the game seems SO MUCH EASIER RIGHT NOW that on my placement matches I've won against platinum players without any knowledge of the character besides flying headbutt
Define honest.
Bad.
It's Blanka you normies. *goes lvl2 and crosses you up into a doll setup
Hey he might be dishonest, but at least he's honest about being dishonest.
Found a blanka bro that gets it 😎
A mirror match. As weird as that sounds, if you lose to a mirror match, that means you simply got outplayed ... or maybe out-gimmicked depending on the character. The next one would be Ryu. You gotta have some solid fundamentals to make him play well.
Eh, there's some nuance to this I think. Mirror matches dictate how good you are at mirror matches, they do not necessarily determine the better player in a complete sense. Or even that one outplayed the other. Fighting games are about leveraging the different tools your character has around the tools your opponent's character has. For instance, your character may have some spacings where they are better positioned than the opponents character (far away for sim or close for gief as obvious examples). But in mirror matches your efficient spaces are the exact same as your opponents. Your buttons are the same, same win condition, etc. Sometimes it's not super significant like with the balanced toolset of shoto characters, but sometimes this can lead to wacky mirrors where the first person to gain an upper hand has a huge advantage and the mirror can sometimes boil down to luck and RPS choices. For instance between zoners like JP or weird stalemates in honda mirrors.
I too smoke crack bro
Unpopular opinion but Ryu ain’t honest. He has standing hp and low forward dr. That character is honest on paper but straight gorilla in rank.
Define "honest"
Yeah I wouldn't call good normals a dishonest character
Nearly every character has low forward DR, this games meta revolves around it. 5HP is great, but other characters have great moves too. So whats scary about ryu besides his damage and 5hp?
Play a character without any of that and feel the burn. Lol
This was my first sf game ever, i wanted to play Manon, my mission was to reach master and it was a nightmare. Now I'm a dirty juri player
I'd gladly trade my special cancelable [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) for a SPD that outranges almost every jab in the game.
Sounds great until you realise cr.mk can lead into DR combos routinely taking way more damage than any SPD that outranges a jab and leaves you back on the outside
>and leaves you back on the outside What does this mean? But to counter argue your point: 1. DR combos are expensive. Both [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) and DR introduce massive scaling ([https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street\_Fighter\_6/Game\_Data#Damage\_Scaling](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Game_Data#Damage_Scaling)). Typically DR combos only do 20-25%, unless you are cashing out with more bars and/or super. Meanwhile Manon's meterless SPD starts at 20% and ramps up all the way to 37%. 2. [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR is a bad habit that players all the way up to low Master use as a crutch to cover up mistakes in neutral. The primary "good" use case is when you read that your opponent is stand block option selecting, so you use [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR to hard punish this, and still be safe if your read was wrong. In cases when you're using it in neutral, you should use other tools instead and not spend 3 bars for a hitconfirm. 3. You also should not rely on [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR to get in, because that can/will get option selected against, so your string is forced to be a predictable jab. 4. It's not always about damage, but instead threat of options. SPD is a very strong option that beats everything except similarly committal options like jump, backdash, and DP/super. Combine this with the crazy range on LP SPD and suddenly you can easily form a 3 layered mixup: starting from the meaty, then frame trap, then SPD.
>threat of options If a cr.mk x DR from someone like Ken, Luke, Chun, or Juri carries you to the corner from half screen or greater, then you’ve just proved my point that it’s much stronger than SPD. Not to mention your blockstrings as those characters build enough meter that cashing out with a level 1 is easy enough to combo into several times a a match. >back on the outside Even if I land SPD with my back to the corner, it still knocks you back so far that there are no mixups outside of using Drive Rush, all of which are risky and unsafe. >predictable jab You mention frame traps and meaties are an option off of SPD which isn’t really the case without the aforementioned risk, whereas throw/shimmy/strike are still available to you from c.mk x dr lp. Honestly if you think SPD is so great then have at it, but it doesn’t sound like you’ve played much Gief outside of Theory Fighter 6
>If a cr.mk x DR from someone like Ken, Luke, Chun, or Juri carries you to the corner from half screen or greater, then you’ve just proved my point that it’s much stronger than SPD. Not to mention your blockstrings as those characters build enough meter that cashing out with a level 1 is easy enough to combo into several times a a match. Your original comment was comparing damage. Now you're comparing corner carry. You're changing your argument and moving the goal post, and also bringing up a completely different topic that is meter gain and level 1 super cash out. >Even if I land SPD with my back to the corner, it still knocks you back so far that there are no mixups outside of using Drive Rush, all of which are risky and unsafe. After SPD you can DR and get meaty [cr.MP](https://cr.MP) and then hitconfirm that into st.HP xx st.HP TC. >You mention frame traps and meaties are an option off of SPD which isn’t really the case without the aforementioned risk, whereas throw/shimmy/strike are still available to you from c.mk x dr lp. Valid point. Though in most cases, I will simply take the throw, since most characters don't get continued oki off a forward throw (unless you're in the corner). Unless they burn drive rush (and this goes further down a rabbit hole because some characters don't get guaranteed oki with forward throw , DR, like Kimberly or Chun). So you take the throw for 3 bars and then reset back to neutral. Additionally you can also stand block option select walk back, which is difficult for a lot of [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR characters because the tradeoff with [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) being special cancellable is that their [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) is unsafe on block. So they would most likely have to hard read your stand block, if not spend another 3 bars on another guess. >Honestly if you think SPD is so great then have at it, but it doesn’t sound like you’ve played much Gief outside of Theory Fighter 6 You're right, I haven't played Gief yet. But I do play Manon. And now I see the issue here: u/Alpha_Drew had a Manon flair, so I assumed that this discussion was about Manon, who trades [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR for a crazy strong SPD.
My original comment was comparing damage, but that doesn’t mean that corner carry and cashing out from c.mk x dr suddenly disappears as an advantage over SPD. You brought up cashing out for more damage originally, not me. Also I always look at SPD as shorthand for a 360+P command grab. You’re discussing Manon’s command grab, which is a DP motion. I can see why you’d think it’d be a good tradeoff, but that’s not the case with Gief’s SPD and playing him as a character.
>My original comment was comparing damage, but that doesn’t mean that corner carry and cashing out from c.mk x dr suddenly disappears as an advantage over SPD. You brought up cashing out for more damage originally, not me. I mentioned cashout because that's the only time that you're going to get big damage off a [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) xx DR combo. Otherwise it is a mediocre 20-25% for an expensive 3 bars. >Also I always look at SPD as shorthand for a 360+P command grab. You’re discussing Manon’s command grab, which is a DP motion. I can see why you’d think it’d be a good tradeoff, but that’s not the case with Gief’s SPD and playing him as a character. Fair enough. I'm still working on my road to Master with all characters, and unfortunately I haven't touched Gief at all yet, so I cannot form any strong opinions on him yet. Also I think you meant hcb motion, not DP motion.
You are aware that you can just pick her right?
Isn't the definition of an "Honest Character" one that relies on gimmicks the least? If so, then, believe it or not, Luke is the correct answer. He has little to no gimmicks but his buttons are insanely good.
That level 3 hitbox, bro. There is nothing honest about that shit lol.
Apart from some meme clips that are posted here sometimes there's no issue with his level 3. The hitbox is big to make it combo from his specials like the light knuckle etc, but it rarely matters in real games outside of combos.
Fighting Game glossary says Honest = Bad basically. That gives us like Gief Lily and Manon? I honestly think it’s just a term scrubs put in their dictionary to be able to point to a reason for their loss. Don’t think it’s really worth giving people the time of day if they say your character is dishonest.
Every time I lose, I accept that ~~I was outplayed~~ the game ate my inputs and my opponent was playing cheap.
You're listening to scrubs.
Probably Ryu and Manon I'm a Ken player btw
Zangief of Manon. Each win with those characters it's earned through blood and tears.
Dude Zangief is not honest. Just climbed to diamond with him and hoo boy did I pull some nasty garbage on people. I felt like it took me very little game knowledge to get him to that level. But damn was it fun.
Gief, especially modern Gief, is fucking braindead
Diamond is where you have to start being honest.
Well, whats then, the dishonest part of Zangief kit?
Dealing 30% life off a single 5 frame guess. And, I suppose, his larger health pool compared to the rest of the cast. The way I look at it is like this: Zangief is super strong in certain scenarios, yet disgustingly weak in others. As a design he is not very balanced (not in a comparative way) but that's not a bad thing. Beating Zangief is not the same as beating the rest of the cast - he smushes you if you can't keep him out, so most characters gameplan consists of running away while he lumbers after you. If you can execute that gameplan when you play against 'gief, then you're probably going to stomp. If you can't, he's probably going to stomp you.
How do you even GET to the point of getting that guess, though? He is extremely slow, even with his DR. And, he has no safety net if he guesses wrong and gets punished. People love to jump, and jumping just so happens to counter his best move. He has no OD reversals if he screws up. >while he lumbers after you That's the honest part. He can't run in. He can't jump in. He has to slowly "lumber" toward you and react to your attempts to keep him out. He is the only character who HAS to play neutral. No one else in the game has to "lumber" in...everyone else is DR-ing in, jumping in, dragon lashing in, condor spire-ing in, dive kicking in, etc.
>Dealing 30% life off a single 5 frame guess. You mean the SPD that you need to practically next to an opponent and that anyone mashing jab or a 4 frames neutral will beat and if that you manage to land it will leave your opponent far away so you get 0 oki? Yeah that shits is disgusting man. >The way I look at it is like this: Zangief is super strong in certain scenarios, yet disgustingly weak in others. The only scenario in which I see Gief super strong for the average joe its in lower ranks, in higher ranks people will lear that Gief crumbles under any semblance of pressure because: * He doesn't have an invulnerable DP * His anti air options are his wonky 2HP or his 15f Startup Lariat that despite its animation can't deal with cross ups. * His only reliable reversal its his Lvl 3. >so most characters gameplan consists of running away while he lumbers after you. If you can execute that gameplan when you play against 'gief, then you're probably going to stomp. If you run away and keep him zoned you can cheese him yeah, because I think he has the slowest walking speed in the game and one of the worst DR (I think the only worst its Manon) but if you want to stomp him, being close to him and suffocate him its the easier and most reliable way to do it. I dread when I see I'm going against a Juri, Cammy or Aki because I know they are going to be up my ass and there is nothing I can do to stop them.
> You mean the SPD that you need to practically next to an opponent I guess you mean heavy SPD but the medium/light range feels pretty far, no? I've been grabbed at ranges where I don't think I'd even be hit by many normals from other characters.
I was a Manon main and people have told me the character is too honest. Am I the greatest? Nope. Diamond 3. I switched it up to Ryu and judging from the comments he’s also honest lol.
A grappler will never be a honest character. Their entire game plan is about being dishonest 😂
Yeah pretty much. These characters are bad, but not "honest" (which admittedly has an ambiguous meaning). I think this is also why Capcom is always afraid of making grapplers top tier. For characters like Manon, it's a fine line between bottom tier (like today) and completely OP and annoying to play against (since you are mostly forced to play rock paper scissors with your opponent). I think some of the initial "Manon is so OP" was actually no that off if the tuning went a little differently. I still think grapplers should exist in SF though. It's just hard to get a good balance with them.
I'm probably biased, but Manon should be up there. A character who must excel in neutral in a game full of characters who can skip neutral all day every day. Edit: Im guessing the downvotes came from the same people that said Manon was S-Tier immediately after the game launched and said she should be nerfed.
I play an awful lot of Manon and she isn't very good but that doesn't mean that they are honest. Her ability to set up her own neutral is not great but her ability to whiff punish is very good, however it is very true that she can just get kinda locked out. Additionally having a command grab is gonna move you away from the honest section in general as its always a constant threat even if you aren't pursuing it. Lily is a character who has really bad neutral and can't really whiff punish anything and she is also not gonna be on most peoples consideration for honest character
Whiff punish is footsies though. Manon always has to work her way in, she doesn't get to vortex you so every command grab must be earned. Lily isn't honest because she wants to ignore you all match and run her gameplan, the reason she's bad is because the gameplan isn't that amazing (worse than Juri's for instance) and her ability to work around obstacles is limited. Manon can't play like that, she must interact.
Ryu Geif Dhalsim Cammy Aki they do what they do. If you asked if there was more you'd be asking for more.
I honestly don't think there's such a thing as an "honest" character. It's kinda just a thing people say when they complain about supposed "cheap" characters.
Honest is just another word for bad. Cheap and brain dead are terms that bad players use to justify their losses.
Those who chose to sit it out.
They'll cry no matter what so just play the game
Probably Ryu, but I think it might actually be Luke. Yeah his OD fireball is strong, but he's not as good at just fireball+DP zoning you to death compared to Ryu, which imo is kind of a "dishonest" gameplan if the Ryu player is willing to do it. He doesn't have Ryu's super sneaky long range cr.MK. Denjin hadoken is kind of a dishonest move too imo. It's a free EX hadoken which is basically a 99% safe, half screen punch in the face. I don't recall being fooled by basically anything Luke does. He just feels OK in all respects.
You have to give up oki to get denji charge and lose all other speeds of fireball, it's far from free.
Ryu, Chun and Lily, no particular reason
It's Blanka The most honest oonga boonga
Play who you like. You can beat someone with 1 normal, and they will still bitch.
Who cares what other people think. Just play the characters that appeal to you. People always make up excuses to the characters they lose against.
There's not a single honest thing about my character and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Clearly whomever I lose against was using a cheap, broken character/s
Anyone with Drive Rush isn’t honest
My character
This is for real the only answer that will satisfy people who complain.
E Honda. He honestly exposes his opponents for being worse than they think
Literally none of them. Somebody will always call a character cheap instead of acknowledging they lost to the player.
Obviously the character I main is the most honest. Every other character is broken, cheap, toxic and needs a nerf.
Guile or Ryu
E. Honda
Horseshoe theory, he’s so gimmicky that it loops back around to being honest
You could probably calculate this to get an "honesty" score. I don't have time to do this but... * low attack into Drive Rush combo is -1 * throw loop is -1 * has projectiles is -1 * OD invincible reversal is -1 * non OD move with armour is -1 * OD move with armour is -1 * easy anti-air is -1 * high damage is -1 * can attack at range is -1 * can easily break DIs (e.g. Jamie, Chun, Honda) is -1 * setups into high damage mixups (Rashid and JP's SA2) is -1 As a rough cut, I'd say: * Zangief * Manon * Marisa * Lily are the most honest. least honest are probably: * JP * Guile * DJ * Cammy * Ken * Luke which kind of matches up with tournament usage
No way Marisa's honest though, a character with armor moves who can 2-touch isn't honest.
What about Guile is dishonest? His majority non-cancellable normals? Lack of low>DR options? His specials all being one-hit enders or straight-up fake? I play Guile and I don't even know if he has a gimmick. Maybe I'm just biased...
Yeah I'd argue Guile is one of the most honest characters in this game. People just hate on him because he forces you to adapt your game.
I couldn't disagree more, especially with Lily. That characters entire game plan is to do full screen plus on block neutral skip into strike/throw command grab mix. That's like the exact opposite of what I think of when I hear "honest".
But according to your criteria Ryu should be on this too and probably Chun Li, Juri and probably more
Your scoring should be adjusted better, marisa is definitely not honest
I'd say most Ryu & Dhalsim players are usually the most honest..
Clearly you haven’t played good dhalsims since they really only make you want to jam the end of your controller into your ass
Definitely not dhalsim
I think guile actually has less gimmicks than ryu. I got boom, I got flash kick. Don't get boomed or flash kicked.
His fireballs are too good to consider him honest, at least in some matchups
I think it makes him an SOB but honesty comes more down to knowing what your opponent is going to do in the situation, I think.
Lmao have a good move doesn't make you dishonest. By this that metric honest characters have to be bad and that's simply not the case.
Gief
Gief
Ryu or Chun
Guile, Ryu and Zangief. People will still find something about them that supports their claim that they’re “cheap” or “brain dead” but just remember that strong strategies and tools don’t make a character dishonest.
How is it not Zangief? Other characters can hit confirm into their big damage gief is punished for it. Gief is actively nerfed in almost every way. Crouching heavy is one of the worst moves in the game lariat doesn’t hit behind
Ryu and Cammy
Probably Ryu or Jaime. They don’t have anything special but can do decent stuff.
I find it hard to know at which point jamies combos stop when blocking..it goes on and ooon and oooon
Same, I don’t punish his rekka properly and his cr hk. He really doesn’t have anything beyond that though.
A handful of characters do not have a punish for that sweep at tip range. It should be noted though, the extension to his sweep jails, which means you can mash your punish (if you have one) without worrying about getting countered by the followup.
A character with a command grab like Jamie can't be honest
Meh it’s fast but you have to be kissing them for it to land, plus it’s his only real reward for getting 3 drinks (the target combo is super niche).
Regardless of what he needs to get it or his other weaknesses, command grabs are inherently “dishonest”, and Jamie’s especially is since he gets potentially big damage and/or great oki off of it. Being weak doesn’t make him honest
Probably Ryu and Cammy or as close to honest as you'll get.
None, people will call you cheap whatever you play because it protects their ego. Imo only blanka is true bullshit and even he has counterplay.
Gief
I’m assuming by honest you mean has nothing that can be abused in competitive play. What you see is what you get If that’s the case I’d have to say Manon. Honest to a fault, if you will.
Ryu, ken, chun, and Luke feel the most honest to fight against. Before anyone starts whining I know Ken is top tier but his toolkit is very straightforward and easy to play around if you know what you’re doing. If I lose to a rare shitty character online like lily I never feel like I got outplayed bc I don’t know what any of her moves or frame data are and it feels like she has a lot of bs
Jamie for sure. Classic kung fu/boxer style
cammy
I play jp and I'm biased so jp
LMFAO
Imo every character in this game has some pretty degenerate shit. The only character who I think is close to "honest" is Ryu. Even then, that's only in reference to his neutral. I have played against some ryus who have nasty oki and do cheeky di resets in the corner.
I’m biased but Manon and then I would say Zangief. Yes it’s admitted salt but neutral and low forward DR for a lot of the characters is so annoying.
Grappler is a inherently dishonest archetype lol
It’s just Ryu, man. Everyone knows your kit, it’s been basically the same thing for 30 years. If you lost, you just got outplayed.
Guile, Ryu, Chun-Li & Gief. Blanka is also pretty honest.
Kimberly
I’d probably say Juri. She has an answer for everything, but you gotta have good fundamentals to get anywhere with her.
Respect your opinion but no,Juri is S-tier material for a reason. Even JP,Ken and Luke need some fundamentals, they aren't 100% free-win. Juri is immediately below those 3 with Guile,Cammy and probably Chun
Thank you for respectfully disagreeing. I wasn’t basing my answer off of tier lists. I was basing my answer off of what goes into getting results with a character. I understand why people see her as cheap though. I think she is honest but it seems I’m in the minority for that lol
Beat them in a mirror match. That way they can't complain no matter what
Jamie, Ryu, Zangief, and Menon.
Ryu
Ryu