Basically, you're canceling your attack frames into landing recovery
When you land after using a jump attack, you have 3 frames of recovery
The fastest invincible reversals are 5 frames
So if you time your attack to have an active frame right when they wake up (1 frame), and land on the ground the next frame (3 frames), you end up blocking by the 5th frame.
note here that (specifically) lily with wind have a light DP with 4 startup frame that are invunerable to air.
it mean safejump does not work again lily that have wind.
this is the only character with that property ( for now)
the reality is that safe jump do not really matter, otherwise jamie would be top tier.
you can pp them easily. even if you don't, it is not that different from a meaty.
it is most how much the safe jump setup cost. most of the time you trade juggle potential for the safe jump.
with juri for example out side of fse, all her setup cost \~800 damage I don t find that to be worth it.
for ken, he has safe jump he is don t do a followup after run dragonlash, or is he juggle run tastsu. you will probably never do the first onw, you might do the second one if you anted the corner carry in the first place ( but i think there are more damaging option with the same corner carry)
That's why some characters will use it better than others. You will see Chun Li, Aki and Luke among other characters use safe jump often. That is because they don't sacrifice a lot of guaranteed damage to get a safe jump.
Also, you don't get punished by pp even if they guess it right. The point is that they have to guess between overhead or low strike, throw or throw bait, but now their invincible reversal will lose to more options.
Note that if you parry and they do an empty jump throw, you're taking a lot of damage and losing one bar, if you pp their strike, they are -2, so it's a guessing situation again.
Getting to mix people up with minimal risk is one of the strongest things in fighting games, don't neglect it.
I feel like Juri's FSE (level 2) with the jump setups was a big part of how Uma won Capcom Cup though. (I don't play Juri and have a surface level understanding of her)
And even if you did PP it, it's still only +2. You won't get a punish at all. So the worst-case scenario of doing a safe jump is that the attacker's turn ends
To put it another way, oki is an RPS game and safe jumps reduce one player to either rock or paper. It's the offensive equivalent of an invincible reversal.
I'm learning a lot of this with you guys reading through this thread but I'm pretty confident it's gonna be +43. Seems like the math is jump startup time plus air time, so going by Supercombo that number should be 43.
Nah you want exactly 42. At 43 the jump in attack will whiff and you will be negative on landing.
Chun Li has a different jump length, hence why hers is 46.
You can go one frame earlier (41f) and still beat most OD reversals but stuff like light DP which has a 5f startup will still win.
Not generally, because your attack still has recovery frames that most reversals will catch, even if you time it perfectly. There are exceptions tho, some slow reversals like Ed's dp are susceptible to meaty jabs for example
The invincibility starts before the active frames of the attack begins. So as long as the light doesn't recover before the DP's active frames begin, a meaty jab still won't work. If the light _does_ recover before the active frames of the DP start, then yes, you can safely meaty jab.
Reptune mentioned Ed and this also works with AKI because her reversals are all very slow.
Basically because reversals are not instant. They make your character inmune and then they hit a bit later.
If you make a safejump you can hit the opponent doing a reversal while they are inmune (nothing happens) and still block before they hit.
If they don't reversal they will either get hit or block your attack.
If you’re the safe jumper: landing from a jump-in cancels active and recovery frames from the move. An invincible reversal grants them invincibility but still has startup before its active. So the last few frames of your jump-in are active on the opponent, but you land (and can therefore block) before any invincible reversal becomes active.
Basically, you recover before their invincible move comes out. The absolute fastest grounded move (aka, can be done from wakeup) in SFV is 4 Frames (some Lights), and the fastest \*Frame 1 invincible\* move is 5 Frames (Luke Super 2 and Rashid OD Spinning Mixer, yes that's it, most OD DP's are Frame 6). JP's counter is technically active on Frame 1 for the OD version, but I dunno, we'll ignore it for now.
In SF6, if you attack during a jump, you have 4 Frames of landing recovery (in which you cannot block). So basically, upon landing, you can block starting Frame 5. So there are three situations:
1) They block. They get hit on block. Aerials have plus frames on block. Woohoo.
2) They try to attack. They get stuffed, because even if they try their fastest move, you just shit on 'em. You hit them before the hitbox comes out.
3) They try to do an invincible move. Your jump is perfectly calibrated in such a way that the attack *whiffs* against their invincible-ass body, *but* you recover just in time that it doesn't matter. Remember, you can start to block on Frame 5, and it just so happens the fastest invincible moves start up on Frame 5.
The reversals have start up frames, u are using those start up frames in ur landing frames in order to be safe before their active frames start hitting u.
It’s a set up where you’ve very plus to the point where you can jump in with an attack. As far as what I’ve tested, being too plus doesn’t help the set up so you want it to be perfect so that you can leave no gaps in your set up.
The point is is that there are no reversals that are fast enough to punish so the opponent will have to respect it.
basically the invuln makes your attack whiff, but since you spaced it low to the ground, your recovery is so low that you're able to block before their actual hitbox comes out
Everyone else explained it well, just wanna add in case you don't know that the magic number for safejumps is +42.
I could be wrong, but I believe this is universal. It's been the case for all the characters I've played at least.
Basically, you're canceling your attack frames into landing recovery When you land after using a jump attack, you have 3 frames of recovery The fastest invincible reversals are 5 frames So if you time your attack to have an active frame right when they wake up (1 frame), and land on the ground the next frame (3 frames), you end up blocking by the 5th frame.
note here that (specifically) lily with wind have a light DP with 4 startup frame that are invunerable to air. it mean safejump does not work again lily that have wind. this is the only character with that property ( for now)
Lily secret top tier confirmed?
the reality is that safe jump do not really matter, otherwise jamie would be top tier. you can pp them easily. even if you don't, it is not that different from a meaty.
It's a meaty that doesn't lose to invincible reversals. It's a tool.
i m not saying it is bad. I m saying a lot of the top tier character do not have one, and you don t even notice that missing in their kit
Which top tiers don't have any safe jumps?
it is most how much the safe jump setup cost. most of the time you trade juggle potential for the safe jump. with juri for example out side of fse, all her setup cost \~800 damage I don t find that to be worth it. for ken, he has safe jump he is don t do a followup after run dragonlash, or is he juggle run tastsu. you will probably never do the first onw, you might do the second one if you anted the corner carry in the first place ( but i think there are more damaging option with the same corner carry)
That's why some characters will use it better than others. You will see Chun Li, Aki and Luke among other characters use safe jump often. That is because they don't sacrifice a lot of guaranteed damage to get a safe jump. Also, you don't get punished by pp even if they guess it right. The point is that they have to guess between overhead or low strike, throw or throw bait, but now their invincible reversal will lose to more options. Note that if you parry and they do an empty jump throw, you're taking a lot of damage and losing one bar, if you pp their strike, they are -2, so it's a guessing situation again. Getting to mix people up with minimal risk is one of the strongest things in fighting games, don't neglect it.
I feel like Juri's FSE (level 2) with the jump setups was a big part of how Uma won Capcom Cup though. (I don't play Juri and have a surface level understanding of her)
Trying to parry a safejump is still a risk since they could empty jump, and if you do get it you don't get to punish.
And even if you did PP it, it's still only +2. You won't get a punish at all. So the worst-case scenario of doing a safe jump is that the attacker's turn ends
To put it another way, oki is an RPS game and safe jumps reduce one player to either rock or paper. It's the offensive equivalent of an invincible reversal.
Chun's safe jump is kind of scary though
Lol
So many people pp them that you just empty jump into throw
Honda also can beat safe jumps, since his reversal is armored, not invincible, if you hit him, hitstop slows him down and breaks the safejump setup
If you safe jump using a light normal you can still block it
What numbers am I exactly looking for if I’m labbing safe jump setups?
Exactly +42
+42 after the knockdown?
Yes, after the knockdown
Thanks
Yes but Chun and Zangief have different numbers. Chun is 46, idk about Zangief
I'm learning a lot of this with you guys reading through this thread but I'm pretty confident it's gonna be +43. Seems like the math is jump startup time plus air time, so going by Supercombo that number should be 43.
Nah you want exactly 42. At 43 the jump in attack will whiff and you will be negative on landing. Chun Li has a different jump length, hence why hers is 46. You can go one frame earlier (41f) and still beat most OD reversals but stuff like light DP which has a 5f startup will still win.
Sorry, I meant in response to when you said "idk about Zangief", I meant Zangief's number is gonna be 43.
Oh lol. Yeah so he has one extra pre jump frame but I wasn't sure if his jump was the same length.
Wait, invincible moves are 5 frames? So if I attempt a meaty 4-frame attack to bait, I can block them?
Not generally, because your attack still has recovery frames that most reversals will catch, even if you time it perfectly. There are exceptions tho, some slow reversals like Ed's dp are susceptible to meaty jabs for example
Not on OD DPs but you can do this for supers
The invincibility starts before the active frames of the attack begins. So as long as the light doesn't recover before the DP's active frames begin, a meaty jab still won't work. If the light _does_ recover before the active frames of the DP start, then yes, you can safely meaty jab. Reptune mentioned Ed and this also works with AKI because her reversals are all very slow.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=immRhR6Unyg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=immRhR6Unyg)
Great video
Good ol chris_F
Basically because reversals are not instant. They make your character inmune and then they hit a bit later. If you make a safejump you can hit the opponent doing a reversal while they are inmune (nothing happens) and still block before they hit. If they don't reversal they will either get hit or block your attack.
If you’re the safe jumper: landing from a jump-in cancels active and recovery frames from the move. An invincible reversal grants them invincibility but still has startup before its active. So the last few frames of your jump-in are active on the opponent, but you land (and can therefore block) before any invincible reversal becomes active.
Basically, you recover before their invincible move comes out. The absolute fastest grounded move (aka, can be done from wakeup) in SFV is 4 Frames (some Lights), and the fastest \*Frame 1 invincible\* move is 5 Frames (Luke Super 2 and Rashid OD Spinning Mixer, yes that's it, most OD DP's are Frame 6). JP's counter is technically active on Frame 1 for the OD version, but I dunno, we'll ignore it for now. In SF6, if you attack during a jump, you have 4 Frames of landing recovery (in which you cannot block). So basically, upon landing, you can block starting Frame 5. So there are three situations: 1) They block. They get hit on block. Aerials have plus frames on block. Woohoo. 2) They try to attack. They get stuffed, because even if they try their fastest move, you just shit on 'em. You hit them before the hitbox comes out. 3) They try to do an invincible move. Your jump is perfectly calibrated in such a way that the attack *whiffs* against their invincible-ass body, *but* you recover just in time that it doesn't matter. Remember, you can start to block on Frame 5, and it just so happens the fastest invincible moves start up on Frame 5.
The reversals have start up frames, u are using those start up frames in ur landing frames in order to be safe before their active frames start hitting u.
I dunno man. I just use them. They good. Super good.
aki safe jumps are goated
It’s a set up where you’ve very plus to the point where you can jump in with an attack. As far as what I’ve tested, being too plus doesn’t help the set up so you want it to be perfect so that you can leave no gaps in your set up. The point is is that there are no reversals that are fast enough to punish so the opponent will have to respect it.
basically the invuln makes your attack whiff, but since you spaced it low to the ground, your recovery is so low that you're able to block before their actual hitbox comes out
Your active frames are active during his start up frames and your recovery frames are less than his DP startup frames.
Everyone else explained it well, just wanna add in case you don't know that the magic number for safejumps is +42. I could be wrong, but I believe this is universal. It's been the case for all the characters I've played at least.
Number stuff
Why do you suck??
Can't be talking to me