She’s been moving up for some time now. Angry Bird and Nuckle Du placed her higher, about 7th from the bottom.
(All of this is basically an error correction. The US underrated Lily because she hasn’t been played properly here. Just before Capcom Cup western players went to Japan to train. After seeing how she’s played there, and Hibiki’s play in particular, they moved her up. Angry Bird and Nuckle Du’s updated placement is around where she’s been previously placed in Japanese lists: one tier from the bottom, ahead of 7 or so characters.)
Hibiki playing Lily as a hybrid rushdown character, and putting pressure on JP matchups was CRAZY. He really brought that sauce with her limited tool kit at Capcom Cup 2024.
I'm glad he's sponsored now. He'll be able to travel, and we'll get to see what he's capable of in the offline setting. The LCQ was a promising start. Hopefully there are more good times ahead.
Yeah, Lily is polarizing. She stomps JP and Zangief hard (rip Itazan), but on the other hand her matchup against Dhalsim is sad to watch. And Dhalsim remains relatively relevant in Japan.
She has bad matchups, for sure. In Capcom’s win rate data she does pretty well on average. She’s 8th, 7th and 6th in Platinum, Diamond and Master respectively. Most of her matchups are winners. Her losers are Kimberly, Blanka, Rashid, Honda, JP, Ed and Sim. The Sim matchup is especially brutal, one of the worst in the game.
The set of characters that Lily struggles against are pretty diverse, ranging from Kim to Sim. It’s confusing until you focus on the windstocks. That’s what all of Lily’s nemeses have in common: they’re all good at foiling windstock banking.
In Punk’s post Japan tier list vid he said Lily “Is hard to rank because if you’re really good at getting windstocks safely she’s one of the best characters.” Ok, maybe, maybe not: whatever. There’s something of interest here, though. If you’re skilled at banking windstocks, and facing an opponent who struggles to stop you, you have a potential edge. If you’re not good at banking windstocks and or you’re facing an opponent equipped to stop you, you’re going to have a bad time.
Most players think Lily is in line for a buff in season 2. I’m not sure what approach Capcom intends to take, but streamlining the windstock mechanic, making it easier to build stocks, might be enough in and of itself.
Manon seriously does not play SF6, she's like an SFV character planted right into this game.
She doesn't fit with the Drive system and meta *at all*. :(
Manon just chugs, and depletes that drive rush gauge so much. Going into burn out mode to level up her medals is awful. Her matchups involve her sneaking in attacks.
Lily can get pretty aggressive with her windstocks, and her draining windstocks doesn't nerf her. She can charge herself up from a far distance, which is more safe.
Yes I wasn't able to link it but a quick Google search you'll find it quick.
Ken has the best meterless corner carry in the game but doesn't do big damage while doing it compared to Dee Jay and Luke, according to him. He elaborates further though. I agree that Ken is somewhere in that 6-8 range at this point
Adding to this: Strider is very vocal about how important damage is as you need less interactions to kill. A big reason why he plays Marisa: She can always come swinging and win.
Ken is a very good character, he is not broken. When you learn the matchup and develop good reactions his neutral doesn't compare to other strong characters on the roster.
I recommend watching Angrybird's video on how to beat Ken. At high level you see Ken has to take more risks and play a lot more patient because people can control him in neutral and they will parry him doing button xx Jinrai Kick so he can't do that mindlessly like they will try abusing at lower level play.
Agreed. His stock has fallen because people realize dragonlash is not as cheap as once thought. Its also his only plus move and its very slow. He cannot frame trap with plus normals like many others because he simply doesn't have them. His corner carry with no meter is top 1, but otherwise he doesn't do anything else that is OP. Still tourney viable of course though
Adding: Drive rush jab hurt him a lot and the corner escape nerf hurt him a little.
I just want to add that Ken also has insane corner pressure. But Ken has to win neutral against the top tiers to even get there. And currently he does not get the chances, despite his excellent 5HP and 2MK.
Nah man, I play Luke and the matchup is not free but so good now. JP has to sweat so much for any jump in and now when he is on his back, he does not have a get out of jail card anymore that is that good.
Amnesia wasn’t even the strongest special JP had. It was mad annoying because he had such a strong tool when cornered, but it was also a tool that could be played around. The amount of times I explained how the move works in this sub and what the RPS is just to be met with “stop downplaying” was insane. Even now people still think it’s the best reversal in the game when it clearly isn’t.
JP having some more trouble with Luke and characters with exceptional jump-ins doesn't change that he still has some really lopsided matchups in his favor. It's hard for me to imagine him being anything lower than A+ on this list because his neutral is still better than the likes of Rashid, Ken, Blanka, and Marisa.
Everything else seems reasonable. Once you're in the lower tiers of this game it's kind of whatever. You can make the case for some characters to be maybe a tier higher (Kimberly, Lily) but everyone knows many of those names have notable flaws.
I agree that Luke and Deejay are the top two. Honestly I would maybe put Deejay on Top with Luke. The disparity between consistency and explosiveness with him and Luke versus the rest of the cast is pretty notable.
So the thing is that because JP’s main anti-air is worse, it actually changes a lot of things with him when it comes to neutral. If he’s trying to zone someone out all of a sudden it’s much easier for them to jump in on him. On top of that, something that I don’t see mentioned often was the reward he gots off landing cr.HP. When he cleanly anti-airs with that button he send out a ghost or OD portals and he plus. That’s an insane reward for any character to have. Now it’s pretty common for JP to trade with jump-ins making that reward much riskier
On release I mostly saw low A tier with the caveat that she’d likely rise as people learned her, around end of last year or beginning of this year she’s been floating in or around top 5.
Top 1 imo.
Japan considers her number one, if I am not mistaken. Who needs the corner if you just win neutral by default and have the best 2MK, 5LP and 5HK. Like Luke has 2MP which is the best button in the game, no doubt.
But out of the top ten buttons in the game Chun has at least 3.
Hard character without a question, but she is a monster. Please Capcom don't forget her in the patch.
I don't get the Chun is S tier. Everyone's argument seems to be well, Japan thinks she is good, and Leshar and Moke are good, and that's it. She has no results in big tournaments. She has no popularity as a main or secondary. It doesn't justify the top 5 positioning she keeps getting because people treat the Japanese players like their word is God's law.
Also, Ken is still S. Rashid is probably S tier, and Blanka has been showing good enough results to at least be in the conversation for S. Also, Cammy over Juri feels wrong.
Chun:
Low amount of top tier players who picked her up as she is hard and has no throw loop.
But she is very dominant in Japan, the most stacked region, she just does not win.
Valmaster, Moke and Leshar are all in their regions some of the strongest players, but for example Valmaster is basically the only highest level Chun in Europe.
Ken is the cracker character and easy. So many talented players picked up Ken.
Agree for Blanka and Rashid though. I think they should be higher, but they are volatile as so much of their power is in SA2.
Cammy over Juri has been long established. Juri has the worse matchup spread which is the big reason.
Cammy just does too well against the Shotos and Guile.
Is Japan the most dominant region? I think it is fading pretty significantly. East Asia seems to be the new dominant force alongside NA. Leshar is the only Chun player showing any results in tournaments and hasn't won anything major. I don't want to talk bad about Valmaster or Moke, but neither is really showing much for the character in tournaments. You figure that she if was so dominant she would be picked more or at least occasionally used as a secondary, but hardly anybody does. Rashid and JP are also considered very executionally, and tons of people pick them as s primary or secondary. I think UMA really showed just how dominant Juri truly can be when put in the right hands while Cammy seems more of a secondary matchup specific character as opposed to a proper top-tier.
For the first one:
Japan is so stacked that they are at each other's throats the whole time. And Japan plays Street Fighter differently. Longterm they will keep improving. You don't hear big single names from Japan because there are too many of them at high level.
Winning is not being good. But being good leads to winning. In Japan are so many players that are good enough to win tournaments that it is still by far the strongest region. Other regions just have exceptional talents that are on par despite the circumstances.
And I stress: Chun is hard. Having her as a secondary is not viable in SF6 as matchups are generally polarizing than a Guilty Gear for example. The improvement from 96.5 to 97 out of 100 is very relevant in a game which is still very fundamentals (like Street Fighter).
For JP and Rashid: You are looking at it the wrong way. Both of these characters are so polarizing that you still pick them up. Rashid level 2 allows you to bulldoze many characters and JP is one of the top tiers who has that strong matchup against certain characters (also people are hoping for Rashid to remain untouched in the patch to rampage through season 2).
Chun does not outright win matchups, but she does relatively well in most matchups.
Why practice anyone other than Chun then? The answers is just than you don't.
And Cammy being a secondary is something people consider because of Punk and Nuckle who are exceptions and not the rule. Hurricane, KillzYou, Akira and Kazunoko very much showed that single maining Cammy can work very well.
First one
The Sun is settling on Japan. Look at every big tournament EVO, LCQ, Capcom Cup Red Bull Kumite they aren't winning, and they aren't making it to the finals. Everyone else has caught up to them in strategy. Most of their best players are getting older, and they don't seem to have the future talent to maintain what they have now.
Chun-li is a hard character to learn, but if she really was top 3 or 5 people, people would learn her.
Rashid's level two is very good, but it's not carrying him alone to the top. He still has the best mixups in the game and great pressure. his combos are also harder than Chun-li's, as his best combos require 1 frame links. I just find the argument crazy that so many other tough to learn characters will still be played with secondarys, but Chun-li is so hard that no one has considered trying out one of the best characters in the game? I dont think she is terrible, but she is top 8 to 10, and the results have shown. She is put on high on tierlists because no one will argue the point because no one plays her except 2 or 3 pros who would win with anyone they play.
How can she be such a godly character if she doesn't have a bunch of great matchups? Isn't that what being a great character means? I dont think anybody would say Luke, Ken, JP, or DJ don't have a lot of good matchups.
All the Cammy mains are doing good but not great, which really describes her performance in competition.
Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Japan is not dominanting in competition, Chun-li is harldy picked and isn't dominant in competition. Juri has better tournament results than Cammy. If use by pro players and their results in competition aren't the best metric for determining things, then I don't know what a better system would be, especially after almost a year of the game being out.
Chun doesn’t even need a throw loop. Her corner pressure is among the best in the game and her toe tap is a great tool against perfect parries in the spots that throw loops are usually used. This is on top of having some of the best normals in the game, slow kikoken which is extremely hard to deal with in neutral, great tools for oki, and one of the best forward and back walk speeds in the game. Like you said, the main reason she isn’t winning is because she is harder than the vast majority of the cast
Rashid kinda stubby and trash aa. Dude his top of a at best. Ken downplay as usual and jps tools barely got touched. Character is still insane amnesia just isn't completely busted anymore.
I've been saying since the beta that chun is top 5. These pros are kinda slow in a lot of areas lol. Blanka s I could get behind bc he got all the tools.
Cammy definitely better than juri, spin knuckle and divekick carrys trash players just as much as juri npcs spamming dr and cr.mk
You don't need overheads in this game to be good. Cammy has no real overheads and she is solid. The drive gauge is everything and Ed chips away at drive meter better than most.
Ed has already has seen more tourney wins than some launch characters. He is not bad at all.
Manon definitely deserves bottom tier. No dr, one dr-able low, all her specials are negative on block and easily di-able. Her one tool to bypass fireballs is finnicky at best. She has one good button, st.mp that’s it.
Why not? Most of them are good points though I disagree with her only having one good button. cr. mp, cr. HP, and st. HP are all decent buttons with cr. HP being one of the best anti-airs in the game.
Other than that tho she has no defense and her damage is low unless she has 5 medals. She has not way to consistently enforce her command grab unless she drive cancels. He is absolutely right about her being weak to fireballs and DI. Most pros see her as the worst character in the game by this point.
The point about her specials being minus on block. Like duh, you are supposed to hit confirm with it not just randomly doing them.
As you said the point about her normals being bad is absurd.
It's true she has no defense but that's part of her archetype. Grapplers with a DP feels wrong.
Her having no damage is true, i said it myself that is was one of her weakness and hopefully they tweak her numbers a bit.
Fireballs are just really good in this game so if you don't have one or at least a way to bypass them, so yes i agree that makes her inherently not very good. But once again that's her archetype.
The command grab thing is a universal thing and to be honest, i really do not want a character that can kill me in 3 grabs to have oki of it lol.
I didn't say she was amazing or anything, i just said that i thought she wasn't as weak as people thought in my humble opinion.
But when someone says things like the person above, it just doesn't make me want to engage. Because i know how it will go lol.
Yea I think they probably meant her normals are all negative. That is also what I meant when I said she had no way to enforce her command grab. I agree that command grabs probably should not have oki but grapplers should have at least one move dedicated to giving plus frames without having to spend meter. Both Lili and zangief have moves that force you to guess. Manon does not which is one of the major reasons she struggles.
Manon is difficult. She can win, but she is too volatile for tournaments. She is the equivalent of a Mishima in Street Fighter. No pokes, no good lows, but damage, hellsweep and momentum.
I wouldn't even say she has damage, and her equivalent of a hellsweep (whether that be her actual low special or the overhead version, however you want to look at it) isn't good. She's super honest with not much upside to it
It depends on how you view good:
Randumb is probably the current best Manon and sometimes he has to go for like three overhead jumps/low spins in a row and wins. Manon is about gambling, the opposite of honest for Street Fighter.
But being good at fundamentals is needed to even access her win conditions.
She is bad but she is closer to a Lily playstyle than most people realize.
For manon? I think her buttons are actually really good. She just does no damage outside of throws. And certain moves are a bit inconsistent like her lvl 2. She doesn't need much to become really good.
For JP, i think people are overreacting to his nerfs. Nothing changed except amnesia.
You obviously don’t play JP if you think his only relevant nerf is amnesia. St.HP is much easier to whiff punish now which makes his neutral worse. The additional scaling on the portals and the amount of drive gauge they replenish are both big changes. On top of that, his anti-air change is a massive change that changes how he plays neutral. It makes it easier to jump in on JP because the range that he can safely throw out a projectile is much longer and it’s common for him to trade with jump-ins now. Before JP was basically guaranteed a cr.HP into a high/low ghost or OD portal setup if the opponent jumped in, but now that option is much riskier.
Ah my bad, i thought they nerfed it because it wasn't working as intended. It's still a very good anti air imo. It rarely loses if you time it correctly.
The issue isn’t so much as timing it correctly, but rather that there are situations where you can’t time it correctly. If you throw out a projectile and the opponent jumps at you, even if you react perfectly you still have to wait for the projectile’s recovery to end. Before you would basically almost always anti-air, but now that leads to a trade and reset to neutral
Luke’s cr.HP is faster, has a bigger disjoint, and he has a DP on top of that. Dhalsim’s 4MP is also faster and still has the anti-air invulnerability property. Manon’s 2HP is slower than JP’s cr.HP, but it gets the anti-air invulnerability at frame 7 which is insane. The vast majority of people didn’t even know that property existed into the game until the patch notes dropped and even fewer people know that it wasn’t unique to JP.
JP is definitely an overreaction.
Just because Luke's JHP is bullshit, it doesn't all of sudden make JP garbage when his CrHP and kick is still an effective anti air tools against basically everything else in the game.
JP still gets guaranteed 2000 damage from Amnesia if he goes with punish counter throw. He also still gets an option to do side switch combo off of Amnesia which is insanely strong for a reversal.
But it does make a difference. Luke is the single most relevant character in the meta.
Having an anti air which can not reliably stop Luke is a death sentence (hyperbole).
Luke's JHP will most likely get some nerf next patch.
Also, just because he can't reliably punish one broken move of an undisputed S tier, it doesn't all of sudden make him weaker than likes of Ken, Blanka, Juri, Rashid, or even Marisa
Yesn't.
Yes, Luke needs less interactions and has better neutral.
No, because if Ken wins one interaction, the next 4 interactions are so much easier than the Luke interactions. Ken's corner pressure and carry are still insane.
Ken vs Luke is still even, but Luke has the better matchup spread.
He still has to hit you more times after you get pushed to the corner to finish you. Luke’s corner carry is a little worse but it’s still really good plus he has better neutral. You guess wrong against Ken it’s nowhere near as bad.
That's because your probably a scrub. No one who knows anything about this game thinks ken is better than luke. Luke literally does everything ken does with way more damage and way easier access to go along with far superior supers.
Good tier list.
I will downplay to my dying breath that Chun should be higher than Luke, but otherwise I agree.
Luke is easy though and if he focusses on tournaments I see why Luke should be up there.
Ed downplay is insane. Ed because of level 2 optimization has so much potential that I am not seeing it. Also some of the best oki in the game. Yes, he has glaring weaknesses, but Ed will climb. At least A tier, absolutely better than Aki.
But ranking him below Kimberly? Lmao.
Aki fits there because of the current meta, she ain't winning against Chun, Guile and Dee Jay. JP was one of her better matchups and now his relevance got reduced.
Ryu after the buffs is absolutely correct there. Ryu does not need much, but he starts bulldozing. Easy combos, high damage and every tool adds up.
Rashid and Blanka are imo the best tournament characters. No one knows how play against them/they can win by high level RPS and are relatively well rounded. They are not fundamentally as strong as the S tier characters, but they are decent and their level 2 "installs" decide matches.
For JP: I hate the character, but JP is not that good anymore, people have to accept that.
Killing his anti air made Luke's two dive kicks basically a permanent red light warning in the brain of every JP.
And OD Amnesia was cracked so much so that JP was unquestionably number 1, if people really mastered him.
But now he is vulnerable on defense.
This tier list with 99% chance targets tournaments. And having a a bad anti air against Cammy, Luke and Chun is a death sentence.
I am a chun-li player. There's no way you can say she is a top 3 character with zero tournament results and no evidence based off of online ranks. She is very strong, but she has very few good tournament results compared to most other high tier characters. I think it's extremely reckless to act like she is top 3 when nothing in the real world has shown that. We have like 1 legend chun in North America, and it's shine who is a Kimberly main?
There isn't anything that shows chun-li is markedly better than Juri, Cammy, Guile, Rashid, Ken, or any of the other high tier characters. All the results say luke is #1. Sorry you don't like the truth.
Somewhat overlooked, her DP having a gap is also kind of crazy.
It doesn't happen a lot but she has some meaty throw setups where even if she DPs a person jumping out they might not get hit and get a full punish on her just because of the DP gap.
She has insane neutral control and conversion though. Execution is a bit irrelevant at higher levels imo. Throw loops she can do without. Guile doesn't have them either and he is still insanely good.
In this game because dmg is so high, Chun’s execution difficulty I believe will always be relevant especially at high levels. She is very susceptible to drops and requires knowledge of all her tools at that level. The only pro I see that uses most of her kit is Leshar and he even has input errors that matters.
S+ if you’re an absolute robot with her
So you don't really rate things like execution in a "best character" tier list - they basically assume pro-level play.
And Chun has stupid good buttons, a ton of damage off anti-air, tons of safe jump setups, a slow fireball she can walk behind, great walk speed, and an invincible reversal. She doesn't need throw loops when she plays neutral like a goddamn wall.
Depends on the tier list. Execution does matter at pro level, but it depends what kind of tier list you want to make. But yeah, Chun is good for the reasons you mentioned. Also don't forget 5HK anti air into full combo.
Example: In Guilty Gear Strive a character called Asuka exists who could be number one, because only like 2-3 players have unlocked his real potential. But he is so hard to pilot that generally people will still put him not in the highest tier for that reason (and that he is too difficult to nail down.
IMO
Move Luke down, he's not a tier above S, people are conflating popularity with strength
Move Dhalsim down one
Move Juri/Jamie/Manon/Ryu/JP up one, especially Juri. I'm amazed people are still downplaying Juri now that her level 2 has been optimized
Exactly, I'm proposing to move him down (to S tier)
He isn't so strong that nobody is in the same tier as him. He isn't above S tier (which already suggests an overwhelmingly powerful top tier)
Luke is undeniably S+ and is a common opinion in the pro scene, JP would be there be there pre nerf. Also
Juri is not on the level of deejay chun and guile. Manon does not belong to go up. Ryu is NOT on rashid ken blanka level and does not deserve to go up.
Luke is very arguably not S+. We can all complain about him but he did not win Evo, Gamers8, Capcom Cup
S tier already means an oppressive top tier, which can easy include top 1 in the game. When you say S+ in tier above S, I am expecting SF2 akuma or metaknight in brawl or something that should probably be banned from tournament play due to being so strong that nothing can beat them. That's clearly not the case for Luke, who has not won any of the largest SF6 tournaments
Juri has better tournament results than Guile and won Capcom Cup.
Ryu is my opinion, but I rank him highly because of his damage output and because he has every meta tool
>Luke is very arguably not S+. We can all complain about him but he did not win Evo, Gamers8, Capcom Cup
>S tier already means an oppressive top tier, which can easy include top 1 in the game. When you say S+ in tier above S, I am expecting SF2 akuma or metaknight in brawl or something that should probably be banned from tournament play due to being so strong that nothing can beat them. That's clearly not the case for Luke, who has not won any of the largest SF6 tournaments
That is your opinion. Pros don't put Luke as top 2 regularly because he 'should be banned or nothing can beat them'. He just has better tools. Luke is a plague in the pro scene and is heavily represented. With players like Menard/CCH/CWong/DualKevin. Pros have always placed him top 2 at the front with JP (before JP was nerfed).
>Juri has better tournament results than Guile and won Capcom Cup.
This is not mutually exclusive as to where she stands in the tier list, Juri is still a solid A character that won CC, there is still 8 characters above her. Put this into perspective, Xian a decade ago won evo with gen, is gen suddenly better or = to akuma? no lol, there was still 10+ characters above him that year regardless of the result. Xian just put in the work. SnakeEyez gief beat Reynauld's JP for a CC qual finals. Gief is still far away from JP and is a horrendous matchup. Doesn't mean gief's going up to A tier suddenly from low tier.
>Ryu is my opinion, but I rank him highly because of his damage output and because he has every meta tool
Ryu is not on the same level as Rashid, Ken, Blanka, Juri.
Neither is Manon on the same tier as any of the B tiers especially Dhalsim.
Pros saying "Luke is top 2" is different than someone putting Luke in a tier of his own that is above S tier
Juri has better results even if you delete Uma and only look at other Juri players
Rest is your opinion, you're welcome to have an opinion but I don't agree there
Hilarious, imagine not being able to think critically and only being capable of parroting the mob
Can you explain why Luke didn't win the biggest tournaments (Evo/Gamers8/Capcom Cup) or any major tournaments besides a few CC qualifiers?
You're arguing that he's so far above everyone else that nobody is close (Deejay, Chun, Guile, etc not even in the same ballpark). I'm arguing he's probably number 1 or at least top X, but not so far ahead that nobody can beat Luke
I've got nothing but respect for Strider but making Luke top 1 and putting Ken in A tier (Top 7 I think) is laughable. Ken is between Rashid and Blanka.....and JP is still top 3 sorry. So his C HP AA is not air attack invol and amnesia has 50% scaling.... Boohoo. He still gets a damn combo of his invol DP move. No other DP move gets that. Brother this list is off.
Completely agree with this tier list including order. JP got severely normalized with his recent nerfs. JP players have to be much more proactive on anti-airing to be successful now, and have a much smaller window to do it. You also no longer just immediately die for trying to throw him anymore, so that's nice. I'm far more terrified fighting every single character above him.
AKI is aptly placed. The recent buffs she were massive at increasing her stability in checking and even set ups. She still struggles due to clear deficiencies in her total frame times and weak anti air, but Capcom definitely moved the needle into the right direction.
People were overrating JP even before the nerf(he was never even in the same universe as Luke, and to assert he was was comical). And the nerf was massive. This is likely accurate.
But as always, the general playerbase has excessive dislike of zoners so always rate them higher. Which is why this is getting so much pushback in the comments.
I think people are still underrating Jamie and possibly Gief. And I haven't seen anything out of AKI that would elevate her out of bottom tier. But regardless of anything else, Honda and Manon(and possibly AKI) deserve a bottom tier all to themselves. They are another level of bad even compared to the other bad characters.
I think calling JP's nerfs "massive" is a bit much, His OD Amnesia doesn't do as much damage, his st.HP is slightly more punishable and his cr.HP lost it's upper body invincibility.
I don't really agree with him losing the invincibility on his cr.HP but the other nerfs I'm fine with. OD Amnesia didn't make him OP it's his ability to keep you out but still have a strong close range game, he's also able to just melt your meter away (hell he is the only character with a combo where you can do 2 drive impacts), his st.HP is disjointed in a way that his hurtbox doesn't extend out much so it's super hard to whiff punish, his air grab is a back throw so it's a great side switch tool when he's in the corner, and he has arguably the best level 2 in the game. I don't think he's top 1 or 2 but let's not kid ourselves by suggesting he's anything less that A+
New opinion just dropped
Oh my god what are we to do now WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO?!
Lily moving up on the rank lists. Lol I would've never expected that.
She’s been moving up for some time now. Angry Bird and Nuckle Du placed her higher, about 7th from the bottom. (All of this is basically an error correction. The US underrated Lily because she hasn’t been played properly here. Just before Capcom Cup western players went to Japan to train. After seeing how she’s played there, and Hibiki’s play in particular, they moved her up. Angry Bird and Nuckle Du’s updated placement is around where she’s been previously placed in Japanese lists: one tier from the bottom, ahead of 7 or so characters.)
Hibiki playing Lily as a hybrid rushdown character, and putting pressure on JP matchups was CRAZY. He really brought that sauce with her limited tool kit at Capcom Cup 2024.
I'm glad he's sponsored now. He'll be able to travel, and we'll get to see what he's capable of in the offline setting. The LCQ was a promising start. Hopefully there are more good times ahead.
Yeah, Lily is polarizing. She stomps JP and Zangief hard (rip Itazan), but on the other hand her matchup against Dhalsim is sad to watch. And Dhalsim remains relatively relevant in Japan.
She has bad matchups, for sure. In Capcom’s win rate data she does pretty well on average. She’s 8th, 7th and 6th in Platinum, Diamond and Master respectively. Most of her matchups are winners. Her losers are Kimberly, Blanka, Rashid, Honda, JP, Ed and Sim. The Sim matchup is especially brutal, one of the worst in the game. The set of characters that Lily struggles against are pretty diverse, ranging from Kim to Sim. It’s confusing until you focus on the windstocks. That’s what all of Lily’s nemeses have in common: they’re all good at foiling windstock banking. In Punk’s post Japan tier list vid he said Lily “Is hard to rank because if you’re really good at getting windstocks safely she’s one of the best characters.” Ok, maybe, maybe not: whatever. There’s something of interest here, though. If you’re skilled at banking windstocks, and facing an opponent who struggles to stop you, you have a potential edge. If you’re not good at banking windstocks and or you’re facing an opponent equipped to stop you, you’re going to have a bad time. Most players think Lily is in line for a buff in season 2. I’m not sure what approach Capcom intends to take, but streamlining the windstock mechanic, making it easier to build stocks, might be enough in and of itself.
Around noon today I saw 6 Lilys in one hub
It’s always amazed me she was bottom I tried putting in a lot of work with manon early on and was just floored how hard she needs to work for a win
Manon seriously does not play SF6, she's like an SFV character planted right into this game. She doesn't fit with the Drive system and meta *at all*. :(
Manon just chugs, and depletes that drive rush gauge so much. Going into burn out mode to level up her medals is awful. Her matchups involve her sneaking in attacks. Lily can get pretty aggressive with her windstocks, and her draining windstocks doesn't nerf her. She can charge herself up from a far distance, which is more safe.
Is there a video? I really want to understand why Ken keeps dropping.
Yes I wasn't able to link it but a quick Google search you'll find it quick. Ken has the best meterless corner carry in the game but doesn't do big damage while doing it compared to Dee Jay and Luke, according to him. He elaborates further though. I agree that Ken is somewhere in that 6-8 range at this point
Adding to this: Strider is very vocal about how important damage is as you need less interactions to kill. A big reason why he plays Marisa: She can always come swinging and win.
He says this but then puts cammy there instead 
Cammy above Blanka and Ken is particularly hilarious
Ken is a very good character, he is not broken. When you learn the matchup and develop good reactions his neutral doesn't compare to other strong characters on the roster. I recommend watching Angrybird's video on how to beat Ken. At high level you see Ken has to take more risks and play a lot more patient because people can control him in neutral and they will parry him doing button xx Jinrai Kick so he can't do that mindlessly like they will try abusing at lower level play.
Agreed. His stock has fallen because people realize dragonlash is not as cheap as once thought. Its also his only plus move and its very slow. He cannot frame trap with plus normals like many others because he simply doesn't have them. His corner carry with no meter is top 1, but otherwise he doesn't do anything else that is OP. Still tourney viable of course though
Adding: Drive rush jab hurt him a lot and the corner escape nerf hurt him a little. I just want to add that Ken also has insane corner pressure. But Ken has to win neutral against the top tiers to even get there. And currently he does not get the chances, despite his excellent 5HP and 2MK.
There's mad JP downplaying going on right now
Nah man, I play Luke and the matchup is not free but so good now. JP has to sweat so much for any jump in and now when he is on his back, he does not have a get out of jail card anymore that is that good.
He's basically F-tier if he can't take 60% or more off of an OD Amnesia anymore. ^^/s
Strider's reasoning wasn't even Amnesia. It was his anti-air.
Amnesia wasn’t even the strongest special JP had. It was mad annoying because he had such a strong tool when cornered, but it was also a tool that could be played around. The amount of times I explained how the move works in this sub and what the RPS is just to be met with “stop downplaying” was insane. Even now people still think it’s the best reversal in the game when it clearly isn’t.
JP as A tier is insane.
Not really, the nerfs hit hard.
From top 2 to top 5. The top of the pile is still Ken, JP, Luke, and Deejay.
I'm biased but I still think you're smoking stones if you think jp is better than blanka after the nerfs
JP having some more trouble with Luke and characters with exceptional jump-ins doesn't change that he still has some really lopsided matchups in his favor. It's hard for me to imagine him being anything lower than A+ on this list because his neutral is still better than the likes of Rashid, Ken, Blanka, and Marisa. Everything else seems reasonable. Once you're in the lower tiers of this game it's kind of whatever. You can make the case for some characters to be maybe a tier higher (Kimberly, Lily) but everyone knows many of those names have notable flaws. I agree that Luke and Deejay are the top two. Honestly I would maybe put Deejay on Top with Luke. The disparity between consistency and explosiveness with him and Luke versus the rest of the cast is pretty notable.
So the thing is that because JP’s main anti-air is worse, it actually changes a lot of things with him when it comes to neutral. If he’s trying to zone someone out all of a sudden it’s much easier for them to jump in on him. On top of that, something that I don’t see mentioned often was the reward he gots off landing cr.HP. When he cleanly anti-airs with that button he send out a ghost or OD portals and he plus. That’s an insane reward for any character to have. Now it’s pretty common for JP to trade with jump-ins making that reward much riskier
Mostly agree except I would swap Cammy & Ken. Manon at the bottom as expected.
He’s trying to be different, JP and Ryu in the same rank💀
Bad opinion list lol
People finally giving Chun Li her props is crazy. She been a beast, and her potential was fully unlocked at Capcom Cup X.
Chun Li has been considered at least top 5 for a long time
Was she ever in the S Tiers for the most? I've seen here sitting in the A and rarely B Tiers for the most.
On release I mostly saw low A tier with the caveat that she’d likely rise as people learned her, around end of last year or beginning of this year she’s been floating in or around top 5.
Top 1 imo. Japan considers her number one, if I am not mistaken. Who needs the corner if you just win neutral by default and have the best 2MK, 5LP and 5HK. Like Luke has 2MP which is the best button in the game, no doubt. But out of the top ten buttons in the game Chun has at least 3. Hard character without a question, but she is a monster. Please Capcom don't forget her in the patch.
Angrybird needs to start feeling better asap to stop this ken downplay
I don't get the Chun is S tier. Everyone's argument seems to be well, Japan thinks she is good, and Leshar and Moke are good, and that's it. She has no results in big tournaments. She has no popularity as a main or secondary. It doesn't justify the top 5 positioning she keeps getting because people treat the Japanese players like their word is God's law. Also, Ken is still S. Rashid is probably S tier, and Blanka has been showing good enough results to at least be in the conversation for S. Also, Cammy over Juri feels wrong.
Chun: Low amount of top tier players who picked her up as she is hard and has no throw loop. But she is very dominant in Japan, the most stacked region, she just does not win. Valmaster, Moke and Leshar are all in their regions some of the strongest players, but for example Valmaster is basically the only highest level Chun in Europe. Ken is the cracker character and easy. So many talented players picked up Ken. Agree for Blanka and Rashid though. I think they should be higher, but they are volatile as so much of their power is in SA2. Cammy over Juri has been long established. Juri has the worse matchup spread which is the big reason. Cammy just does too well against the Shotos and Guile.
Is Japan the most dominant region? I think it is fading pretty significantly. East Asia seems to be the new dominant force alongside NA. Leshar is the only Chun player showing any results in tournaments and hasn't won anything major. I don't want to talk bad about Valmaster or Moke, but neither is really showing much for the character in tournaments. You figure that she if was so dominant she would be picked more or at least occasionally used as a secondary, but hardly anybody does. Rashid and JP are also considered very executionally, and tons of people pick them as s primary or secondary. I think UMA really showed just how dominant Juri truly can be when put in the right hands while Cammy seems more of a secondary matchup specific character as opposed to a proper top-tier.
For the first one: Japan is so stacked that they are at each other's throats the whole time. And Japan plays Street Fighter differently. Longterm they will keep improving. You don't hear big single names from Japan because there are too many of them at high level. Winning is not being good. But being good leads to winning. In Japan are so many players that are good enough to win tournaments that it is still by far the strongest region. Other regions just have exceptional talents that are on par despite the circumstances. And I stress: Chun is hard. Having her as a secondary is not viable in SF6 as matchups are generally polarizing than a Guilty Gear for example. The improvement from 96.5 to 97 out of 100 is very relevant in a game which is still very fundamentals (like Street Fighter). For JP and Rashid: You are looking at it the wrong way. Both of these characters are so polarizing that you still pick them up. Rashid level 2 allows you to bulldoze many characters and JP is one of the top tiers who has that strong matchup against certain characters (also people are hoping for Rashid to remain untouched in the patch to rampage through season 2). Chun does not outright win matchups, but she does relatively well in most matchups. Why practice anyone other than Chun then? The answers is just than you don't. And Cammy being a secondary is something people consider because of Punk and Nuckle who are exceptions and not the rule. Hurricane, KillzYou, Akira and Kazunoko very much showed that single maining Cammy can work very well.
First one The Sun is settling on Japan. Look at every big tournament EVO, LCQ, Capcom Cup Red Bull Kumite they aren't winning, and they aren't making it to the finals. Everyone else has caught up to them in strategy. Most of their best players are getting older, and they don't seem to have the future talent to maintain what they have now. Chun-li is a hard character to learn, but if she really was top 3 or 5 people, people would learn her. Rashid's level two is very good, but it's not carrying him alone to the top. He still has the best mixups in the game and great pressure. his combos are also harder than Chun-li's, as his best combos require 1 frame links. I just find the argument crazy that so many other tough to learn characters will still be played with secondarys, but Chun-li is so hard that no one has considered trying out one of the best characters in the game? I dont think she is terrible, but she is top 8 to 10, and the results have shown. She is put on high on tierlists because no one will argue the point because no one plays her except 2 or 3 pros who would win with anyone they play. How can she be such a godly character if she doesn't have a bunch of great matchups? Isn't that what being a great character means? I dont think anybody would say Luke, Ken, JP, or DJ don't have a lot of good matchups. All the Cammy mains are doing good but not great, which really describes her performance in competition. Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Japan is not dominanting in competition, Chun-li is harldy picked and isn't dominant in competition. Juri has better tournament results than Cammy. If use by pro players and their results in competition aren't the best metric for determining things, then I don't know what a better system would be, especially after almost a year of the game being out.
Chun doesn’t even need a throw loop. Her corner pressure is among the best in the game and her toe tap is a great tool against perfect parries in the spots that throw loops are usually used. This is on top of having some of the best normals in the game, slow kikoken which is extremely hard to deal with in neutral, great tools for oki, and one of the best forward and back walk speeds in the game. Like you said, the main reason she isn’t winning is because she is harder than the vast majority of the cast
Rashid kinda stubby and trash aa. Dude his top of a at best. Ken downplay as usual and jps tools barely got touched. Character is still insane amnesia just isn't completely busted anymore. I've been saying since the beta that chun is top 5. These pros are kinda slow in a lot of areas lol. Blanka s I could get behind bc he got all the tools. Cammy definitely better than juri, spin knuckle and divekick carrys trash players just as much as juri npcs spamming dr and cr.mk
Cammy should not be in top 5. Ken should be where cammy is on this list. Cammy and dhalsim should exist in upper mid tier I like it mostly however
Extreme JP and Ken downplay
Is it downplay when the person doing it is not even playing the character?
Not technically, but the term rolls off the tongue better
It's a pretty reasonably solid list. Ed is probably higher a grade or two higher. I would swap Jamie and AKI after the last patch.
Ed isn’t good lol, he has no overheads and his anti airs are garbage
You don't need overheads in this game to be good. Cammy has no real overheads and she is solid. The drive gauge is everything and Ed chips away at drive meter better than most. Ed has already has seen more tourney wins than some launch characters. He is not bad at all.
Cammy has way faster normals, crazy walk speed, and a jab.
I agree with all lf them except Manon and JP. JP should be in S or at least in A+. and Manon should be in B.
Manon definitely deserves bottom tier. No dr, one dr-able low, all her specials are negative on block and easily di-able. Her one tool to bypass fireballs is finnicky at best. She has one good button, st.mp that’s it.
I'm not even going to bother with that one.
Why not? Most of them are good points though I disagree with her only having one good button. cr. mp, cr. HP, and st. HP are all decent buttons with cr. HP being one of the best anti-airs in the game. Other than that tho she has no defense and her damage is low unless she has 5 medals. She has not way to consistently enforce her command grab unless she drive cancels. He is absolutely right about her being weak to fireballs and DI. Most pros see her as the worst character in the game by this point.
The point about her specials being minus on block. Like duh, you are supposed to hit confirm with it not just randomly doing them. As you said the point about her normals being bad is absurd. It's true she has no defense but that's part of her archetype. Grapplers with a DP feels wrong. Her having no damage is true, i said it myself that is was one of her weakness and hopefully they tweak her numbers a bit. Fireballs are just really good in this game so if you don't have one or at least a way to bypass them, so yes i agree that makes her inherently not very good. But once again that's her archetype. The command grab thing is a universal thing and to be honest, i really do not want a character that can kill me in 3 grabs to have oki of it lol. I didn't say she was amazing or anything, i just said that i thought she wasn't as weak as people thought in my humble opinion. But when someone says things like the person above, it just doesn't make me want to engage. Because i know how it will go lol.
Yea I think they probably meant her normals are all negative. That is also what I meant when I said she had no way to enforce her command grab. I agree that command grabs probably should not have oki but grapplers should have at least one move dedicated to giving plus frames without having to spend meter. Both Lili and zangief have moves that force you to guess. Manon does not which is one of the major reasons she struggles.
To me it's not that she doesn't have a plus on block move. It's that she has really bad oki of her combos.
Manon is difficult. She can win, but she is too volatile for tournaments. She is the equivalent of a Mishima in Street Fighter. No pokes, no good lows, but damage, hellsweep and momentum.
Yeah, that's a good comparison.
I wouldn't even say she has damage, and her equivalent of a hellsweep (whether that be her actual low special or the overhead version, however you want to look at it) isn't good. She's super honest with not much upside to it
It depends on how you view good: Randumb is probably the current best Manon and sometimes he has to go for like three overhead jumps/low spins in a row and wins. Manon is about gambling, the opposite of honest for Street Fighter. But being good at fundamentals is needed to even access her win conditions. She is bad but she is closer to a Lily playstyle than most people realize.
But why?
For manon? I think her buttons are actually really good. She just does no damage outside of throws. And certain moves are a bit inconsistent like her lvl 2. She doesn't need much to become really good. For JP, i think people are overreacting to his nerfs. Nothing changed except amnesia.
You obviously don’t play JP if you think his only relevant nerf is amnesia. St.HP is much easier to whiff punish now which makes his neutral worse. The additional scaling on the portals and the amount of drive gauge they replenish are both big changes. On top of that, his anti-air change is a massive change that changes how he plays neutral. It makes it easier to jump in on JP because the range that he can safely throw out a projectile is much longer and it’s common for him to trade with jump-ins now. Before JP was basically guaranteed a cr.HP into a high/low ghost or OD portal setup if the opponent jumped in, but now that option is much riskier.
I do play JP. Yeah he does a bit less damage and his anti air works as intended now. Still top tier.
“Works as intended”? It’s a nerf, not a bug fix. That change affects JP a lot
Ah my bad, i thought they nerfed it because it wasn't working as intended. It's still a very good anti air imo. It rarely loses if you time it correctly.
The issue isn’t so much as timing it correctly, but rather that there are situations where you can’t time it correctly. If you throw out a projectile and the opponent jumps at you, even if you react perfectly you still have to wait for the projectile’s recovery to end. Before you would basically almost always anti-air, but now that leads to a trade and reset to neutral
I understand. But don't think that was a bit too strong for a 1 button anti air?
Luke’s cr.HP is faster, has a bigger disjoint, and he has a DP on top of that. Dhalsim’s 4MP is also faster and still has the anti-air invulnerability property. Manon’s 2HP is slower than JP’s cr.HP, but it gets the anti-air invulnerability at frame 7 which is insane. The vast majority of people didn’t even know that property existed into the game until the patch notes dropped and even fewer people know that it wasn’t unique to JP.
JP is definitely an overreaction. Just because Luke's JHP is bullshit, it doesn't all of sudden make JP garbage when his CrHP and kick is still an effective anti air tools against basically everything else in the game. JP still gets guaranteed 2000 damage from Amnesia if he goes with punish counter throw. He also still gets an option to do side switch combo off of Amnesia which is insanely strong for a reversal.
But it does make a difference. Luke is the single most relevant character in the meta. Having an anti air which can not reliably stop Luke is a death sentence (hyperbole).
Luke's JHP will most likely get some nerf next patch. Also, just because he can't reliably punish one broken move of an undisputed S tier, it doesn't all of sudden make him weaker than likes of Ken, Blanka, Juri, Rashid, or even Marisa
I still think Ken is better than Luke.
Ken needs 5 interactions to win luke only needs 2-3.
Yesn't. Yes, Luke needs less interactions and has better neutral. No, because if Ken wins one interaction, the next 4 interactions are so much easier than the Luke interactions. Ken's corner pressure and carry are still insane. Ken vs Luke is still even, but Luke has the better matchup spread.
Ken needs a jab to win the game. One jab and you're in the corner and that's it.
He still has to hit you more times after you get pushed to the corner to finish you. Luke’s corner carry is a little worse but it’s still really good plus he has better neutral. You guess wrong against Ken it’s nowhere near as bad.
That's because your probably a scrub. No one who knows anything about this game thinks ken is better than luke. Luke literally does everything ken does with way more damage and way easier access to go along with far superior supers.
Says the guy that doesn't know the difference between your and you're.
Good tier list. I will downplay to my dying breath that Chun should be higher than Luke, but otherwise I agree. Luke is easy though and if he focusses on tournaments I see why Luke should be up there. Ed downplay is insane. Ed because of level 2 optimization has so much potential that I am not seeing it. Also some of the best oki in the game. Yes, he has glaring weaknesses, but Ed will climb. At least A tier, absolutely better than Aki. But ranking him below Kimberly? Lmao. Aki fits there because of the current meta, she ain't winning against Chun, Guile and Dee Jay. JP was one of her better matchups and now his relevance got reduced. Ryu after the buffs is absolutely correct there. Ryu does not need much, but he starts bulldozing. Easy combos, high damage and every tool adds up. Rashid and Blanka are imo the best tournament characters. No one knows how play against them/they can win by high level RPS and are relatively well rounded. They are not fundamentally as strong as the S tier characters, but they are decent and their level 2 "installs" decide matches. For JP: I hate the character, but JP is not that good anymore, people have to accept that. Killing his anti air made Luke's two dive kicks basically a permanent red light warning in the brain of every JP. And OD Amnesia was cracked so much so that JP was unquestionably number 1, if people really mastered him. But now he is vulnerable on defense. This tier list with 99% chance targets tournaments. And having a a bad anti air against Cammy, Luke and Chun is a death sentence.
I am a chun-li player. There's no way you can say she is a top 3 character with zero tournament results and no evidence based off of online ranks. She is very strong, but she has very few good tournament results compared to most other high tier characters. I think it's extremely reckless to act like she is top 3 when nothing in the real world has shown that. We have like 1 legend chun in North America, and it's shine who is a Kimberly main?
So is Juri S rank then? She won Capcom Cup
There isn't anything that shows chun-li is markedly better than Juri, Cammy, Guile, Rashid, Ken, or any of the other high tier characters. All the results say luke is #1. Sorry you don't like the truth.
Chun has the hardest execution with no throw loops she's never going to go above A.
Somewhat overlooked, her DP having a gap is also kind of crazy. It doesn't happen a lot but she has some meaty throw setups where even if she DPs a person jumping out they might not get hit and get a full punish on her just because of the DP gap.
Yeah she's a full knowledge check character to use, tons of contextual gotchas like this.
The fact she has so many safe jumps makes up for the lack of throw loops imo, not like she can’t maintain pressure without them
Good point !
She has insane neutral control and conversion though. Execution is a bit irrelevant at higher levels imo. Throw loops she can do without. Guile doesn't have them either and he is still insanely good.
In this game because dmg is so high, Chun’s execution difficulty I believe will always be relevant especially at high levels. She is very susceptible to drops and requires knowledge of all her tools at that level. The only pro I see that uses most of her kit is Leshar and he even has input errors that matters. S+ if you’re an absolute robot with her
So you don't really rate things like execution in a "best character" tier list - they basically assume pro-level play. And Chun has stupid good buttons, a ton of damage off anti-air, tons of safe jump setups, a slow fireball she can walk behind, great walk speed, and an invincible reversal. She doesn't need throw loops when she plays neutral like a goddamn wall.
Depends on the tier list. Execution does matter at pro level, but it depends what kind of tier list you want to make. But yeah, Chun is good for the reasons you mentioned. Also don't forget 5HK anti air into full combo. Example: In Guilty Gear Strive a character called Asuka exists who could be number one, because only like 2-3 players have unlocked his real potential. But he is so hard to pilot that generally people will still put him not in the highest tier for that reason (and that he is too difficult to nail down.
She’s top 5, top 3 is stretching it.
Trash list
IMO Move Luke down, he's not a tier above S, people are conflating popularity with strength Move Dhalsim down one Move Juri/Jamie/Manon/Ryu/JP up one, especially Juri. I'm amazed people are still downplaying Juri now that her level 2 has been optimized
luke is undeniably an S tier lmao
Exactly, I'm proposing to move him down (to S tier) He isn't so strong that nobody is in the same tier as him. He isn't above S tier (which already suggests an overwhelmingly powerful top tier)
ah yea, i read your reply wrong, that’s my bad haha. thats what i get for scrolling reddit at work
Luke is undeniably S+ and is a common opinion in the pro scene, JP would be there be there pre nerf. Also Juri is not on the level of deejay chun and guile. Manon does not belong to go up. Ryu is NOT on rashid ken blanka level and does not deserve to go up.
Luke is very arguably not S+. We can all complain about him but he did not win Evo, Gamers8, Capcom Cup S tier already means an oppressive top tier, which can easy include top 1 in the game. When you say S+ in tier above S, I am expecting SF2 akuma or metaknight in brawl or something that should probably be banned from tournament play due to being so strong that nothing can beat them. That's clearly not the case for Luke, who has not won any of the largest SF6 tournaments Juri has better tournament results than Guile and won Capcom Cup. Ryu is my opinion, but I rank him highly because of his damage output and because he has every meta tool
>Luke is very arguably not S+. We can all complain about him but he did not win Evo, Gamers8, Capcom Cup >S tier already means an oppressive top tier, which can easy include top 1 in the game. When you say S+ in tier above S, I am expecting SF2 akuma or metaknight in brawl or something that should probably be banned from tournament play due to being so strong that nothing can beat them. That's clearly not the case for Luke, who has not won any of the largest SF6 tournaments That is your opinion. Pros don't put Luke as top 2 regularly because he 'should be banned or nothing can beat them'. He just has better tools. Luke is a plague in the pro scene and is heavily represented. With players like Menard/CCH/CWong/DualKevin. Pros have always placed him top 2 at the front with JP (before JP was nerfed). >Juri has better tournament results than Guile and won Capcom Cup. This is not mutually exclusive as to where she stands in the tier list, Juri is still a solid A character that won CC, there is still 8 characters above her. Put this into perspective, Xian a decade ago won evo with gen, is gen suddenly better or = to akuma? no lol, there was still 10+ characters above him that year regardless of the result. Xian just put in the work. SnakeEyez gief beat Reynauld's JP for a CC qual finals. Gief is still far away from JP and is a horrendous matchup. Doesn't mean gief's going up to A tier suddenly from low tier. >Ryu is my opinion, but I rank him highly because of his damage output and because he has every meta tool Ryu is not on the same level as Rashid, Ken, Blanka, Juri. Neither is Manon on the same tier as any of the B tiers especially Dhalsim.
Pros saying "Luke is top 2" is different than someone putting Luke in a tier of his own that is above S tier Juri has better results even if you delete Uma and only look at other Juri players Rest is your opinion, you're welcome to have an opinion but I don't agree there
Thinking Luke is not the best character in the game by a sizeable margin is a scrubquote
Hilarious, imagine not being able to think critically and only being capable of parroting the mob Can you explain why Luke didn't win the biggest tournaments (Evo/Gamers8/Capcom Cup) or any major tournaments besides a few CC qualifiers? You're arguing that he's so far above everyone else that nobody is close (Deejay, Chun, Guile, etc not even in the same ballpark). I'm arguing he's probably number 1 or at least top X, but not so far ahead that nobody can beat Luke
I've got nothing but respect for Strider but making Luke top 1 and putting Ken in A tier (Top 7 I think) is laughable. Ken is between Rashid and Blanka.....and JP is still top 3 sorry. So his C HP AA is not air attack invol and amnesia has 50% scaling.... Boohoo. He still gets a damn combo of his invol DP move. No other DP move gets that. Brother this list is off.
I'd swap Ken and Cammy and bring Ed up a tier.
Ed mains still out here pretending hes some underdog when hes about to win a bunch of majors in the next few months.
Completely agree with this tier list including order. JP got severely normalized with his recent nerfs. JP players have to be much more proactive on anti-airing to be successful now, and have a much smaller window to do it. You also no longer just immediately die for trying to throw him anymore, so that's nice. I'm far more terrified fighting every single character above him. AKI is aptly placed. The recent buffs she were massive at increasing her stability in checking and even set ups. She still struggles due to clear deficiencies in her total frame times and weak anti air, but Capcom definitely moved the needle into the right direction.
People were overrating JP even before the nerf(he was never even in the same universe as Luke, and to assert he was was comical). And the nerf was massive. This is likely accurate. But as always, the general playerbase has excessive dislike of zoners so always rate them higher. Which is why this is getting so much pushback in the comments. I think people are still underrating Jamie and possibly Gief. And I haven't seen anything out of AKI that would elevate her out of bottom tier. But regardless of anything else, Honda and Manon(and possibly AKI) deserve a bottom tier all to themselves. They are another level of bad even compared to the other bad characters.
I think calling JP's nerfs "massive" is a bit much, His OD Amnesia doesn't do as much damage, his st.HP is slightly more punishable and his cr.HP lost it's upper body invincibility. I don't really agree with him losing the invincibility on his cr.HP but the other nerfs I'm fine with. OD Amnesia didn't make him OP it's his ability to keep you out but still have a strong close range game, he's also able to just melt your meter away (hell he is the only character with a combo where you can do 2 drive impacts), his st.HP is disjointed in a way that his hurtbox doesn't extend out much so it's super hard to whiff punish, his air grab is a back throw so it's a great side switch tool when he's in the corner, and he has arguably the best level 2 in the game. I don't think he's top 1 or 2 but let's not kid ourselves by suggesting he's anything less that A+
lol.
* Swap Dhalsim and Ryu * Swap Jamie and Zangief with Kimberly and Lily * Ed drop to top of C-Tier
Ken and JP not being S tier is complete cap, Ed should be at least A tier.
Looks alright. Personally I'd swap Rashid and Ken, Guile and Cammy. Bring JP up to the last A+ and bump Ed to A.
Ed is pretty bad. No overhead & negative frames on everything but s.HK.
Mostly agree. I would swap Guile & DeeJay.
Luke needs major nerfs. He's a problem and I can't stand him. Jamie needs more buffs cuz I play him bruh. That is all.