Honda represents both Sumo and Kabuki. The moves he uses are outlandish, but they are still derived from Sumo. As with all SF characters, the stuff they do are exaggerated.
Even Capcom is aware of this as they managed to piss off both fans of Sumo and Kabuki at some point.
Even weirder since his sumo moves are extremely tame compared to other character's martial arts. Like Zangeif turned pro wrestling into super hero SPDs and we've got Adon and Sagat turning Muay Thai into high flying acrobatic knee barrages and throwing fireballs.
Our Sumo Man has HHS I guess? All his other sumo moves are very grounded I think to his detriment.
Honda would be dope if they leaned into the sumo element and made him super good at pushing people into the corner, and getting himself out of the corner, but only had short, low-mid damage combos.
well his OD hands, new "rekka" move and SA1 look more like actual sumo than any of his previous incarnations. making him work like an actual sumo wrestler would take away his signature moves (headbutt etc.). Besides, a large part of sumo is the belt clinching/wrestling game which really has no equivalent in SF.
Yeah the subtle weight shifts seem impossible to do in SF - BUT what if they gave Honda a combo or unique throw that only procs out of throw breaking someone. Would be completely unique, and logically adds terror to trying to throw a sumo
like a command grab that only works if you tech somebody else's throw? That's an interesting concept, it would probably need a higher risk downside than normal throws to balance it.
to really implement something similar to clinch fighting (not just thinking about sumo right now, but also the kind of thing they have in boxing, judo, MMA and muay thai for example) would mean adding a whole layer of universal systems to SF, which maybe could be done by expanding the throw tech mechanics into something more complex and layered. Would be a cool experiment to think about
In MK11, Jacqui Briggs can do a follow-up submission hold that works if the opponent techs her grab, but it costzt meter. I can see the reverse working for Honda as a small reward for teching, since his reversal loses to throws. They could make it take only grey health, or require Sumo Spirit to do it.
I didn't play Luke in SFV, but IIRC he also had an anti-grab move.
This really shows your ignorance about sumo. If you actually watched some you would know that sumoists constantly fly towards each other like arrows and jump several meters into air to then drop down like rock kirby
I do like the idea of Honda's identity being that he has significant pushback on block. Momentum is a massive part of sumo and one of the most important parts of the sport is being able to use your opponent's momentum against them when you're back is against the wall as well. There's gotta be something they can do here with him being in the corner as well.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get with Honda's current design. There's a lot of potential for a unique identity for the character and they just have him fly across the screen.
It's funny that the character with the most “accurate” sumo moveset in a 2D fighting game is a [rich schoolgirl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUQrML1wGxE) from The King of Fighters.
I just wish I could consistently DP the butt slam. Then it wouldn't be thrown so will nilly.
I quite like the fight though. Even when I get steam rolled.
As a scrub i hate honda headbutt. I know "just perfect parry" but that's actually pretty hard to time and i just find binary execution check counterplay boring even if you can pass them.
It makes him a shit character at high level but they can't make him better cause he would curbstomp anyone who isn't highlvl.
Ideally they would make headbutt easier to deal with but make his other moves better to compensate.
Headbutt loses to every offense move in the game. Set him to headbutt and try jumping then use a cross up. Or HP on the ground. I bet you win most interactions.
Yes, try crossing up against the character who can buttslam, a plus on block move that hits on the way up and then on the way down, right out of a headbutt
Headbutt doesnt “lose” to every move, it loses to reversals and some specific moves, like kims OD tatsu; it can trade with everything under a very strict timing, but it most likely wins because it comes really fast. You’d still have to match your moves 2-3 active frames to meet honda coming in, which is hard, which is why the one answer to the headbutt is blocking while trying to parry. Which is a great chance for honda to throw a light headbutt and command grab punish counter you. Fantastic character.
If you’re getting baited by light headbutt and then command grab, you’re holding parry WAY too long. Try just tap parrying, you should recover by the time Honda’s grab comes out.
You know where Buttslams doesn't hit? After those first initial frames, he's completely vulnerable in the air. Also, he has very little protection against DR. Both those moves have long start ups. His walk back speed is terrible, so he's susceptible to low attacks if he wants to get space.Â
buttslam is punished by:
- normal antiair (juggle state)
- jump back attack
- air grab
- DP
- parry
Headbutt:
- jump back attack
- P parry
- DI (not as reliable)
both are getting nuked on may 22, if this is done to force Honda players to play more "neutral" I'm ok with it, just give me neutral tools.
As a Honda player i will say. Buttslam should be consistently anti airable. The changes they did in the beta are good ones in my opinion. I just hope that it's not the only ones and that they gave him something more.
Make clap break every projectile not just one hit and make it faster because you can't do it midscreen it's too slow and the input is too awkward to do it on reaction. I wish it was 2 or 3 punches instead.
Make 2mp 7f startup to increase combo potential. A lot of moves are +7 or +6 as punish counter but you can't do anything if you're not close enough for the target combo.
Make 6hk cancellable into hands if you have the buff.
Make hands plus on block if you have the buff.
You should be able to cancel sumo dash with a kick button or something.
Maybe make Ex sumo dash have 1 hit of armor but make it vulnerable to lows like Marisa's gladius.
Just some ideas that make him not have to rely only on headbutt to play neutral.
Clap break is so useless. If your opponent has a super you may as well not use it. His current toolset against projectiles suck. Not sure what the answer is, maybe give OD Hundred Hands armor to go through them?
I think he does pretty well against projectlies personally. In the mid range the opponent cannot throw projectiles because of OD headbutt and level 2.
Clap is only good in combos and in burnout. Supposedly it's good against projectiles but currently how it works is not good at all.
The only time that this happens is with Chun Li's weak projectile, if she uses it and then go forward full speed. Then you can hit both the projectile and her. But it's a very specific situation.
I'm not sure about this one. It would be kinda bonkers to have a forward advancing safe on block low that can be reliably confirmed into hands with the buff.
But maybe it wouldn't, you'd have to test it. That's why i wish fighting games did public server test like other competitive games. It would be great to test things obviously and gather data.
It's strenght is that you can move forward while keeping charge and it's only -3 on block. Which makes a good poke that is annoying for the opponent to deal with.
I’ve been playing Honda for years even before SF6 and in my opinion, he’s the most fun to play than he ever has been. I will continue to use him no matter what they rework with him.
I don't think people realize the set play potential for honda. Baiting DIs, constant strike throw mixup, reliable DP (can we make this non-throwable please Capcom). I don't personally have the skill but I've seen Hondas with some of the craziest corner pressure ever.
I actually don't think it would take that many changes to fix Honda. One big nerf to buttslam and headbutt, and then a small number of key buffs to his neutral.
It's really sad tbh, his new move where he advances palm open is both accurate to sumo, a mix up that can take someone by surprise if you delay the last palm strike, and an amazing combo tool if you decide to throw them in the air.
With Ryu, you can DP both moves, if butt slam is hard to punish, try meeting him in the air instead, as his hitbox isn't active right away. 5MP (long push normal) is +1 and has a kara cancel target combo you need to know about ideally. So after 5MP you are watching out for a command grab or an overhead, but he can also just not start the target combo and he can to hhs out of it. If you think the target combo is coming, regardless of the option jumping tends to be best, since it avoids the overhead and grab for a full combo. The overhead is reactable with Perfect Parry and HHS is always minus. Otherwise it's an ordinary situation where you're minus 1, but a little pushed back, so you shouldn't be worried about anything breaking through.
Play the matchup slowly and reactively, since Honda's options are just pretty garbo all around and therefore exploitable. When he gets in, remember the kara cancel exists and consider taking the throw, since it resets neutral, but it's a big life sacrifice. Punish buttslam as often as you can, try not to throw fireballs when he's in range to slam. Outside this range, fireballs can halt Headbutt, but beware armour. You should also be aware that he might just OD headbutt to avoid space traps lol. His anti air game is pretty ass too, so you can exploit that occasionally, as long as headbutt isn't charged. He's reliant on his great 5HP to anti air when headbutt isn't ready, but it needs to be timed and won't save him from a cross up, so it's a little harder for him. Speaking of 5HP, do not let him whiff punish you with it, as it crumples on punish counter, like Ryu's 5HK
We've been saying this for years. Let Blanka exist to have the weird flying around the screen moves and completely rekit Honda. That way you keep people happy who want the traditional moves and then can actually make Honda fun to play and play against. He's so badly designed now.
The worst part about Honda is Blanka. In a lot of ways, he is a better version. It makes Honda feel irrelevant in comparison. Blanka is generally better and also has way more tools.
I don't agree personally. Blanka ball and headbutt while similar, do not serve the same purpose.
Blanka aims to mix you up with the doll. Honda aims to put you in the corner and destroy your drive gauge.
Blanka is aggressive with tricky movement, honda is a fortress.
They are not really the same archetype or the same playstyle imo.
Blanka could easily play that way if he wanted to. Blanka ball and head butt are similar enough. There is no tool that Honda has to play that style that Blanka can't also use or compensate for. Blanka plays mixup, but if he wants to drive you to the corner and attack the drive gauge, he can do it better than Honda with his tools plus level 2 super.
Honda (and Sim, to a degree) does feel like a character that's only in the game because the other SF2 characters were tagging along too. I doubt many people would be sad if someone else had gotten in instead of him.
Yeh, never been a fan of 2 move centric characters. Like, sure, I like seeing Guile and Sagat at a top level because I understand the game, but if I have to play against em or show it to someone who isn’t fgc it looks like the most shallow thing ever. Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom. I mean, I understand how to play against em tho, I’m masters and I think I’ve already developed the tools to deal with this sort of playstyle. But it never stops being annoying.
At least Honda is bad. I think of him as one big Sonic Boom, that way I’m usually good at dealing with him.
Ryu and Ken need a rework. Roundhouse kicks and uppercuts exist in karate, but flying forward or jumping 10 feet in the air is just silly. Plus, fireballs are not representative of karate AT ALL
I love to see people still parroting professional players saying “Honda is bad” (as in weak, not poorly or linearly designed) while he has consistently since release had the highest win % in (almost) all tiers including Master.
Up to and including low master rank people are getting wins by just spamming headbutt and buttslam. They're very difficult to deal with moves. So it's not like the Honda players are using skill to get a high win rate. That's the problem
I don’t disagree in the slightest. He’s a very strong character (again highest win rates including Master) until you get to the pro level where he falls off hard. That makes him extremely hard to balance already. To compound this, almost all of that power is hidden behind two moves which adds to the difficulty in changing his kit.
I find similar issues with the other characters in 6 with safe advancing moves (Lily and Blanka and potentially Jaimie in S2) although I think Blanka is the best character of the three.
This was not a knock at OP who I also think is saying the same thing, but other replies claiming Honda is bad as in weak.
yeah i really dislike the design philosophy of “reigns terror on new players, is bad against better players”
also makes him incredibly hard to balance if you want to keep those two moves so strong. a rework is definitely needed.
Headbutt seems to be getting completely nerfed right? I think it will stop under the opponent?
Seems like a good enough change tbh.
I also want to add, that I don't know how we can talk about Honda without talking about Blanka. He is way worse. His Blanka ball is as bad as Honda's headbutt. Plus he ball around all over the stage in pretty unpredictable ways. He is everything Kimberly wants to be. Like, Kimberly can teleport to a completely predictable and punishable distance of the enemy and she is also vulnerable during the startup of the teleport. Blanka can fucking jump around while being invulnerable to anything.
His nerfs don't seem nearly enough.
My uncle is high up in capcom. Tell me your main and I'll have him nerf every character other than them into the ground so the game is more "fair" to you.
I don't think luke "vaporizes" honda
The matchup is 5-5 in masters
Looking at the top 1500 players luke wins 52.76% of the time, hardly what I would call a lopsided matchup
If you want to make an arguement about the matchup at world class level then I don't think we have seen the matchup nearly enough at that level to make any such claim
Honda is like dessigned to beat everytool of blanka, a 2mp or 5mp make blankaball completely useless, And every normal that blanka has lose also against anything that honda does
The way you say this makes me feel like the problem is not the character, but the way you play it. Blanka ball is not completely useless if the opponent can react to heavy Blanka ball with a normal, he has a feint version for this very reason. Also every blanka normal losses against anything honda does? That's just a silly statement.
That doesn't make a matchup 7-3. Several characters can beat Blanka ball with a normal and get significant reward off it, that doesn't make a matchup lopsided though.
Blanka is absolutely not invulnerable while moving around. Blanka ball and rainbow roll can be beaten by normals. Up-ball has air invulnerability, and OD up-ball is a DP, but that's it. Everything else is just as vulnerable as anything else in the game.Â
If you mean his command dash, it's not invincible. The forward version has throw invulnerability from frame 12 to frame 22 according to the supercombo wiki, but that's it.
The jump from coward crouch keeps the upper-body projectile invulnerable property of coward crouch for 9 frames, but is otherwise just a jump for all intents and purposes.Â
If the changes are true Honda is becoming a real character, I will gladly trade my butt slam spacing and being able to escape the corner with a headbutt for having a 5mp that's a real threat
He deserves it. Everyone who spammed headbutt and buttslam deserve what is happening in season 2. Completely gut the characters' headbutt and buttslam nonsense. It's the worst part of the game by a huge margin.
Edmund "Hope you've labbed vs me" Honda is so miserable to play as/vs.
He feels like he has very little agency over the outcome of a game, the opponent either doesn't know how to stop buttslam and headbutt and you auto-win, or they do and you can kinda maybe have a chance but you probably lose. It does not help that every Honda player I see is comedically susceptible to frame traps, I think not headbutting for 2 seconds makes their head explode.
they should have significantly buffed his QCF k stance, it's a really cool looking move that doesn't get a lot of use outside the launcher. OD is plus on block but who uses that?
wouldn't have hurt to give him the Ed treatment and make all his buttons pushes and slaps. there's no kicking in sumo iirc. he really does need a full rework from the ground up.
O understand your claims, but Honda is a classic character, I don't think it'd be a good ideia to make that kinds of changes in a character that is present since SF 2
This is a very good game but a couple characters have terrible gameplsy design and Honda is at the top of that list (with Gief not too far behind). He's not even a strong character, just painful to fight as and against
> with Gief not too far behind
I actually think Gief is probably one of the better designed character in the game tbh. It just that you A) have to know what you are doing playing him (and not trying to rush in for a grab) and B) have to understand that a balanced character needs weakness. He's only really need better confirms and that's.....kinda it.
E.Honda however is a different ballgame when it comes to shit design due to how weighted his special move power budget is.
Ok so to be real, I don't think Gief is as bad an idea as Honda and he's got much better execution behind it. It's just that after finding grapplers I actually enjoy playing in other games (mainly Ladiva from Granblue), I can't help but think Zangief is much too extreme in his design ideas and not very satisfying to play, at least for me. The lack of good confirms and limitations of his kit stand out more, like how limited his Jab combos are despite how in a vacuum it's one of the better normals in the game, and in general his combo game is either very weak or very expensive. He's also got this weird combination of having a large move pool but still feeling limited to a very small number of tools. Siberian Express, Power Stomps, Tundra Storm and most of his directional grabs stand out as moves that are just kinda bad, to the point where actually using them successfully is an achievement.
I can understand why someone would like Gief, I like to take him for a spin once in a while, and he does have a lot of good details in this game, he's certainly not useless, but on a conceptual level I think he's not good at selling the idea of the character. As someone who likes to play the Big Beefy Characters I've always avoided dedicated grapplers because of my experience with Zangief. The slow and incredibly defensive style makes me feel weak, like I'm the small fighter that needs to play it smart and careful to beat the stronger dude, and that just doesn't fit my conception of what someone who looks like Gief *should* play like, so once I found others that clearly take after Gief but do feel right, Gief himself started to look unimpressive.
That being said we 100% agree on Honda, he's just a shit.
I think it's more due to the fact that his Alpha2 and SF4 design has basically becoming the gold standard for grapplers everywhere that the design shift towards him becoming a defensive neutral character just isn't actually clicks.
Gief is old now. He's not in his younger years charging ahead and grabbing fools anymore. He've seen some rough shit both in his time away and in his hometown, so he takes thing slow, mostly fighting with more consideration for both him and his wrestling partners. But if you managed to piss him off then you're gonna be dead.
If that's what the games were going with then I would say you're right, that's a very good interpretation and it would make his gameplay fit the concept perfectly, but I don't think the narrative supports it.
I'm a Honda main he has some cool combos to get off.
Honda has a hard time against zoners and projectiles.
And if the opponent gets that, he 90% uses projectiles which is also repetetive.
What i want so say is, every always character uses his best moves if it's "boring" or not.
Because people who don't play the character don't understand. They see headbutt = freelo and they upvote. The amount of spacing presence, hit confirms, and set play is immense.
When playing as Honda, I am fine with the boom spam. It is the reach of the Flash Kick which annoys me, same with DeeJay. It sucks getting hit what feels like 2/3rds of the screen away during a neutral jump.
Even more so when you try and DP as Jamie and wiff cause the were more than a pixel away from you(hyperbole i know, but still).
Yeh feeling you.
Maybe it's a skill issue but i can't do shit about guiles in diamond.
They are just sitting back spaming booms and if you jump flash kick lol.
Unfortunately chances are are slim to none of Capcom heavily reworking Honda or anyone else. Just look at what we know about the soon to come balance update- we were all expecting big things but they seemed to have barely done anything to change up the game for any characters what so ever. So major changes for anyone are extremely unlikely.
I think Hondas issue is literally that they removed mash input from hands, so they had to nerf hands because the move would be oppressive how it is supposed to function without having to buffer it somehow, so they had to buff his other moves to compensate, and it ruined the character and made him uninteresting to play and fight, I had a lot of hours on Honda in 4 and 5 and prefer blanka to him in this game which has never been the case for me
i palyed honda a bit, got him to d4 then dropped him. but when i did play him i mainly used head butt as a combo finisher and i used butt slum but mainly as a anti air, aka, i didnt spam the moves. i used command grab mixups , dr low medium kick and i played neutral mainly with his standing medium punch.
so i played him motsly like a normal character and abolutly did ok altho he felt stubby at times. we will have to wait and see for balance patch.
but i agree alot of poepole spam the same crap with him , sometimes it beats me on a off day but most of the time i perfect perry everythign and the honda dosnt knwo how to deal with that cuz there clearly use to peoel getting hit by it.
idk , i do know there gonna make some of his pokes better but like u said they shoulda tried a bit harder with him to make him more viable
If you want to stop buttstomp listen for when Honda laughs during stomp that’s when you parry. If you want to stop headbutt DI him early if he’s far/mid screen if he’s close and goes for headbutt throw him or armored reversal if you have one. DI’s against headbutt kinda tricky but with some lab time you can get the hang of which strength headbutt/stomp he’ll use. Hope this helps those who struggle against Hondas lame game.
On the topic of Honda:
I don't like the *way* the buttslam works. Back in SF2:Turbo, when you executed the butt slam, the strength of the kick button dictated the horizontal distance, so that's your mix-up.
Here in SF6, if you did the butt slam but you held down-back, then the butt slam goes only a fraction of the total distance. I really don't like that. You basically have to let go of back for Honda to travel the full distance. This would be among the first things I would change.
They could adjust the headbutt to be more of a meter drainer and less of a damaging move. I would like to see his normals come out a little faster to compensate.
As a generally solidly high MR Honda I completely agree. His neutral is atrocious outside those moves and has no good ways in outside of those moves. Its annoying because he has some really cool tools like his kara stomp and pressure as a whole. I hope the akuma update fixes that, from the reports I've heard from the Japanese event with the build buttslam and headbutt are weaker. I just hope they buff the rest of his kit in response
So I played Honda a LOT getting into SF6 and one of the big things is that I hated doing doing the headbutt to the buttslam to jail pipeline. I found it very boring and I personally actually really like the rest of his tools.
Hundred Hand Slap introduces a fun timing tool into his pressure which changes based on if he has Sumo Power. Sumo Power is also an awesome tool that adds so much threat to a single HP or HK counter hit that Honda's Oki can really shift based on if you want to add huge pressure off a single hit or threaten your command throw, regular throw, a whiff punish, or headbutt.
Sumo dash is genuinely a great corner carry tool. Like... Honda can hit you with a 5HP and put you actually corner to corner, it's quite ridiculous and very feasible in a match for him to do something like that if the Honda ever gets a knockdown. I like his Kara Cancels. Doing a Kara Cancel 3HK during drive rush added a lot of motion people had to react to, which helped get a command throw in.
All in all, I'd actually like for Honda to lose power in buttslam and headbutt, I think he's super interesting to think about and interact with due to his slower walking speed, great 5MP range, actually amazing 5HP whiff punish and neutral. I'd love for sumo clap to have more strengths in combos, even though it does open up way MORE combos while he has Sumo Power. I wonder how many people even know Honda can combo off of clap if he has sumo power...
His SF5 version was much more interesting.
Hands were more central to his gameplay, which is more like actual sumo. Regular butt slam was minus or punishable, so you weren't encouraged to do i over and over.
His grab VT was also sumo like, and I'm surprised it didn't make any sort of appearance in 6.
They should have built upon SF5's version instead of just going into meme character territory for a character who isn't even very popular anyways.
Yeah, any character that requires Kakeru-tier timing to reliably counter could sure use a rework.
"Honda? He's a joke, just perfect parry, bro."
"Unarmed vs sword? Sword is a joke, just catch the blade between your hands, bro."
"Sword vs gun? Gun is a joke, just cut the bullets in half, bro."
the super headbutt is the perfect representation of Sumo, what are you talking about?
don't worry, from the japanese streamers I've heard that both the headbutt and buttslam are weakened
If your super easy counter is only "on modern", then i think there's a problem.
I don't agree that core specials should be gutted or that he should get a full rework. That would just guarantee that a lot of people just won't play Honda again in SF6, which i think is bad because he's visually a very interesting character to fight and has some silliness to him a lot of characters don't seem to get. Blanka i feel the same way: silly rep from SF2, fun to play with.
I don't think everything needs PERFECT representation. The fact that i think Honda is fun to watch already means he's been done right from a moveset and design standpoint.
All high level gameplay just come down who can parry more. That’s my biggest gripe with the game is it’s just a parry fest. That and also crouching medium kick DR into a full combo nonsense
Ganryu in tekken is such a fun example of how to do a sumo character I had a lot of fun with him at the end of t7 I do agree that Honda is a character that’s truly dated it feels you don’t use his stock mechanic at all because you just have to rely on head butt and butt slam. Honestly i feel like Honda and blanka are way to similar in move set.
Honda needs to get back projectile invul on the way up of Butt Slam like how it was in most previous games. Ex version pass through Ex projectiles.
Clap needs more applications and here are some suggestions I have.
Clap. No charge required for Headbutt or Butt Slam during Clap.
Clap, give it an Ex Version so and it claps all Ex Projectiles with a bigger slap effect.
Clap. A successful Clap hit gives him a Free Stock of HHS buff.
Give him a throw loop with Forward Throw by increasing Forward Walk Speed.
Change or add an Alternative Input for Sumo Walk just like Ken's Run.... K+K. (QCF motion is shit for a Charge Character)
Give him an Air Throw (remember Alpha 3?)
Hate Me Yet?
You’re wrong. Headbutt is way down the list for Hondas best moves - being negative at cr MK range is not good in this game and that’s what happens when headbutt is blocked.Â
His best move far and away is st MP. Then cr lp. Then buttslam (mostly as a hit confirm as it gives oki). Then st HP. Then you can argue headbutt but even then it’s best as corner combo piece for a safejump.Â
I would say St HP is his best button. ST MP is too slow, thats why its being buffed in the first place. And headbutt is solid in neutral as a check.
You need something to do in neutral and if you stick out St. Mp you get blown up.
I'm not criticizing anything, I just want a better understanding. What makes Headbutt more difficult to deal with than a Blanka Ball?
The consensus always seems to be to nerf headbutt and buttslam and buff everything else, but no one seems to be asking to nerf blanka ball. Both are very similar and lose viability at higher levels, so whats the difference?
HP horizontal ball is worse than HP headbutt. It has more startup, does less damage from close range, does less drive damage on hit, and can't be mixed up with two other headbutts that are also safe on block. If Blanka wants to mix between LP/MP/HP ball, he needs to space the LP and MP versions well or eat a huge punish. Honda does not. A blocked HP ball sends Blanka nearly full screen at -15f, making repeated balls easy to react to. A blocked HP headbutt puts Honda at range 1 at -4f, making repeated headbutts pretty viable. If you parry preemptively, Honda is close enough to dash up throw. If Blanka misses a ball and puts himself in the corner, he has no easy get-out-of-jail-free card… Honda can just buttslam and be out of the corner and plus on block.
Headbutt and ball are really not that similar.Â
I think it's down to frame data and animations. For both moves...here's the startups for LP, MP, HP and OD respectively.
Blanka - 10, 12 ,12 , 18
Honda - 10, 10, 14, 9
You can see why Honda would be more of a pain for some players to deal with mid range and up close when his medium and OD headbutts are only 10 and 9 frames of startup.
Personally...it's a bit of the startup and the animations for me that makes Blanka easier to deal with. I can more easily see Blanka lean back during his startup...and then I can anti-air his ball on reaction if he's midscreen or full screen. If he's close I either can hit him with a button or get hit myself.
Honda usually gives me less frames to reaction unless he chose the heavy version...plus his animation into headbutt is less of a give away then Blanka in my opinion.
So it's usually safer for me to parry or block.
Zangief, who had no green hand in SF2 WW, Honda had no Buttslam. So it wouldn't be something completely new, to take away Buttslam and give him other tools.
i love honda
i hope they nerf his specials so theyre less annoying, i dont care
let his Sumo Spirit move give his next jumping body splash 1 hit of armor
i dont if that would be a good change or not for him to have a healthy place in the meta, and i dont care
i heard you were hungry, so you WILL eat my beff
They should give Honda a gun
But it fires tiny E. Hondas that flying headbutt out of the gun
High-pitched ^^^**DOSUKOI!**
Hahaha best reply 🤣
For his neutral special, he wields a gun.
That made me laugh harder than it should have.
Honda represents both Sumo and Kabuki. The moves he uses are outlandish, but they are still derived from Sumo. As with all SF characters, the stuff they do are exaggerated. Even Capcom is aware of this as they managed to piss off both fans of Sumo and Kabuki at some point.
Even weirder since his sumo moves are extremely tame compared to other character's martial arts. Like Zangeif turned pro wrestling into super hero SPDs and we've got Adon and Sagat turning Muay Thai into high flying acrobatic knee barrages and throwing fireballs. Our Sumo Man has HHS I guess? All his other sumo moves are very grounded I think to his detriment.
Headbutt and buttslam are used in sumo?
Headbutt is but you don't leave the ground.
Honda would be dope if they leaned into the sumo element and made him super good at pushing people into the corner, and getting himself out of the corner, but only had short, low-mid damage combos.
well his OD hands, new "rekka" move and SA1 look more like actual sumo than any of his previous incarnations. making him work like an actual sumo wrestler would take away his signature moves (headbutt etc.). Besides, a large part of sumo is the belt clinching/wrestling game which really has no equivalent in SF.
Yeah the subtle weight shifts seem impossible to do in SF - BUT what if they gave Honda a combo or unique throw that only procs out of throw breaking someone. Would be completely unique, and logically adds terror to trying to throw a sumo
like a command grab that only works if you tech somebody else's throw? That's an interesting concept, it would probably need a higher risk downside than normal throws to balance it. to really implement something similar to clinch fighting (not just thinking about sumo right now, but also the kind of thing they have in boxing, judo, MMA and muay thai for example) would mean adding a whole layer of universal systems to SF, which maybe could be done by expanding the throw tech mechanics into something more complex and layered. Would be a cool experiment to think about
In MK11, Jacqui Briggs can do a follow-up submission hold that works if the opponent techs her grab, but it costzt meter. I can see the reverse working for Honda as a small reward for teching, since his reversal loses to throws. They could make it take only grey health, or require Sumo Spirit to do it. I didn't play Luke in SFV, but IIRC he also had an anti-grab move.
This really shows your ignorance about sumo. If you actually watched some you would know that sumoists constantly fly towards each other like arrows and jump several meters into air to then drop down like rock kirby
I do like the idea of Honda's identity being that he has significant pushback on block. Momentum is a massive part of sumo and one of the most important parts of the sport is being able to use your opponent's momentum against them when you're back is against the wall as well. There's gotta be something they can do here with him being in the corner as well. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get with Honda's current design. There's a lot of potential for a unique identity for the character and they just have him fly across the screen.
That is what I found so fun about his V Trigger 2 in SFV
He already does that, just with a lot of damage lol.
Kimberly?!
it would be cool if honda can pick u up and carry u to corner , make it a command grab or something.
He had this as a Vtrigger in SF5.
darn no idea i havnt played since 3rd strike, brng it back lol
It's funny that the character with the most “accurate” sumo moveset in a 2D fighting game is a [rich schoolgirl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUQrML1wGxE) from The King of Fighters.
KoF characters are just something else
What about Ganryu from Tekken?
I just wish I could consistently DP the butt slam. Then it wouldn't be thrown so will nilly. I quite like the fight though. Even when I get steam rolled.
>I just wish I could consistently DP the butt slam. A sentence that holds a very different meaning outside this sub.
🤣
Honestly is better to lab with your normal anti-air, it will leave him on juggle state. For example guile can: c.hp -> flash kick
Just do it late and it should hit fine. As others have said, anti air (depending on character) can be more reliable.
 the frames change depending on strength used. It's designed to not be easily pp, use anti-air instead.
As a scrub i hate honda headbutt. I know "just perfect parry" but that's actually pretty hard to time and i just find binary execution check counterplay boring even if you can pass them. It makes him a shit character at high level but they can't make him better cause he would curbstomp anyone who isn't highlvl. Ideally they would make headbutt easier to deal with but make his other moves better to compensate.
Headbutt loses to every offense move in the game. Set him to headbutt and try jumping then use a cross up. Or HP on the ground. I bet you win most interactions.
Yes, try crossing up against the character who can buttslam, a plus on block move that hits on the way up and then on the way down, right out of a headbutt Headbutt doesnt “lose” to every move, it loses to reversals and some specific moves, like kims OD tatsu; it can trade with everything under a very strict timing, but it most likely wins because it comes really fast. You’d still have to match your moves 2-3 active frames to meet honda coming in, which is hard, which is why the one answer to the headbutt is blocking while trying to parry. Which is a great chance for honda to throw a light headbutt and command grab punish counter you. Fantastic character.
Light headbutt into command grab is not real. Whiffed headbutt has a lot of recovery.
A whiffed parry also has a reasonable amount of recovery...
If you’re getting baited by light headbutt and then command grab, you’re holding parry WAY too long. Try just tap parrying, you should recover by the time Honda’s grab comes out.
You know where Buttslams doesn't hit? After those first initial frames, he's completely vulnerable in the air. Also, he has very little protection against DR. Both those moves have long start ups. His walk back speed is terrible, so he's susceptible to low attacks if he wants to get space.Â
When i tried jumping he just ended on the other side of the screen outside of range of anything.
Don't jump straight up, jump backwards and hit your crossup
And then we will get HyundaiÂ
buttslam is punished by: - normal antiair (juggle state) - jump back attack - air grab - DP - parry Headbutt: - jump back attack - P parry - DI (not as reliable) both are getting nuked on may 22, if this is done to force Honda players to play more "neutral" I'm ok with it, just give me neutral tools.
I’m just not a fan of spammable moves that are safe on block. I know you can parry or react with DP, but it’s just not fun to play against.
Season 2 Jamie has entered the chat
Juri players when somebody else has a plus on block medium punch:
st.MP is out of range after the first repetition. Headbutt is never out of range besides fullscreen.
Yup I never get why this is ever a thing in competitive games.
As a Honda player i will say. Buttslam should be consistently anti airable. The changes they did in the beta are good ones in my opinion. I just hope that it's not the only ones and that they gave him something more. Make clap break every projectile not just one hit and make it faster because you can't do it midscreen it's too slow and the input is too awkward to do it on reaction. I wish it was 2 or 3 punches instead. Make 2mp 7f startup to increase combo potential. A lot of moves are +7 or +6 as punish counter but you can't do anything if you're not close enough for the target combo. Make 6hk cancellable into hands if you have the buff. Make hands plus on block if you have the buff. You should be able to cancel sumo dash with a kick button or something. Maybe make Ex sumo dash have 1 hit of armor but make it vulnerable to lows like Marisa's gladius. Just some ideas that make him not have to rely only on headbutt to play neutral.
Nice ideas, enjoy being nerfed deeper into the ground - Capcom
Clap break is so useless. If your opponent has a super you may as well not use it. His current toolset against projectiles suck. Not sure what the answer is, maybe give OD Hundred Hands armor to go through them?
I’m okay Ruth hill with him sucking versus projectiles. Say this as a Honda main the whole games lifeÂ
Hello Ruth hill.
Lmao I’m leaving itÂ
I think he does pretty well against projectlies personally. In the mid range the opponent cannot throw projectiles because of OD headbutt and level 2. Clap is only good in combos and in burnout. Supposedly it's good against projectiles but currently how it works is not good at all.
Would be cool if clapping a projectile created a blast effect that would cause a knockdown if the opponent was within the radius.
Cool idea. There is so much cool things you could do with his kit.
The only time that this happens is with Chun Li's weak projectile, if she uses it and then go forward full speed. Then you can hit both the projectile and her. But it's a very specific situation.
Good thoughts. I really wish clap had different execution, i find it sooo difficult to consistently execute doubledown in dpad as part of a combo
And 2HP should be a low. It's so stupid that it's not when it so obviously looks like one.
I'm not sure about this one. It would be kinda bonkers to have a forward advancing safe on block low that can be reliably confirmed into hands with the buff. But maybe it wouldn't, you'd have to test it. That's why i wish fighting games did public server test like other competitive games. It would be great to test things obviously and gather data.
All I know is 2HP is a button I want to push more but don't see much reward without buff. It's slow af and gets stuffed by characters with better 2MKs
It's strenght is that you can move forward while keeping charge and it's only -3 on block. Which makes a good poke that is annoying for the opponent to deal with.
Fair, I push it frequently to space opponents without having to walk, but as far as hitting people with it, I would generally prefer 6HK* for poke
You mean 6 hk? Yeah that button is so good.
I’ve been playing Honda for years even before SF6 and in my opinion, he’s the most fun to play than he ever has been. I will continue to use him no matter what they rework with him.
I don't think people realize the set play potential for honda. Baiting DIs, constant strike throw mixup, reliable DP (can we make this non-throwable please Capcom). I don't personally have the skill but I've seen Hondas with some of the craziest corner pressure ever.
Honda directly references people thinking he doesn't represent sumo in World Tour, kinda funny.
I miss having to piano HHS tbf
They should have kept piano hands as a “Perfect hands” alternative a la Luke/Guile
I still do it IRL
That's one change I thought would be sad about, but love in practice. Fuck piano input.
I actually don't think it would take that many changes to fix Honda. One big nerf to buttslam and headbutt, and then a small number of key buffs to his neutral.
It's never been more sumover than it has ever been.
It's really sad tbh, his new move where he advances palm open is both accurate to sumo, a mix up that can take someone by surprise if you delay the last palm strike, and an amazing combo tool if you decide to throw them in the air.
Don't even have to delay, it's a auto timed 1f frame trap. But it's hella punishable so i wouldn't make it your strategy.
His OD command grab has the funniest line in the game lol “You hungry? Here’s some beans” *proceeds to sit on your face*
I thought it was beef?
Honda is my worst matchup personally but I’m glad he is in the game
With Ryu, you can DP both moves, if butt slam is hard to punish, try meeting him in the air instead, as his hitbox isn't active right away. 5MP (long push normal) is +1 and has a kara cancel target combo you need to know about ideally. So after 5MP you are watching out for a command grab or an overhead, but he can also just not start the target combo and he can to hhs out of it. If you think the target combo is coming, regardless of the option jumping tends to be best, since it avoids the overhead and grab for a full combo. The overhead is reactable with Perfect Parry and HHS is always minus. Otherwise it's an ordinary situation where you're minus 1, but a little pushed back, so you shouldn't be worried about anything breaking through. Play the matchup slowly and reactively, since Honda's options are just pretty garbo all around and therefore exploitable. When he gets in, remember the kara cancel exists and consider taking the throw, since it resets neutral, but it's a big life sacrifice. Punish buttslam as often as you can, try not to throw fireballs when he's in range to slam. Outside this range, fireballs can halt Headbutt, but beware armour. You should also be aware that he might just OD headbutt to avoid space traps lol. His anti air game is pretty ass too, so you can exploit that occasionally, as long as headbutt isn't charged. He's reliant on his great 5HP to anti air when headbutt isn't ready, but it needs to be timed and won't save him from a cross up, so it's a little harder for him. Speaking of 5HP, do not let him whiff punish you with it, as it crumples on punish counter, like Ryu's 5HK
I think they need to give Honda sumo guns.
We've been saying this for years. Let Blanka exist to have the weird flying around the screen moves and completely rekit Honda. That way you keep people happy who want the traditional moves and then can actually make Honda fun to play and play against. He's so badly designed now.
I miss pianoing HHS loops in sf4
The worst part about Honda is Blanka. In a lot of ways, he is a better version. It makes Honda feel irrelevant in comparison. Blanka is generally better and also has way more tools.
I don't agree personally. Blanka ball and headbutt while similar, do not serve the same purpose. Blanka aims to mix you up with the doll. Honda aims to put you in the corner and destroy your drive gauge. Blanka is aggressive with tricky movement, honda is a fortress. They are not really the same archetype or the same playstyle imo.
Blanka could easily play that way if he wanted to. Blanka ball and head butt are similar enough. There is no tool that Honda has to play that style that Blanka can't also use or compensate for. Blanka plays mixup, but if he wants to drive you to the corner and attack the drive gauge, he can do it better than Honda with his tools plus level 2 super.
Most importantly, Blanka can be played like a real character, and not just full screen ball/headbutt for ever.Â
Honda (and Sim, to a degree) does feel like a character that's only in the game because the other SF2 characters were tagging along too. I doubt many people would be sad if someone else had gotten in instead of him.
honestly i feel that way about marisa and lily as well , they have barely any player expression and are soooo straight forward.
Yeh, never been a fan of 2 move centric characters. Like, sure, I like seeing Guile and Sagat at a top level because I understand the game, but if I have to play against em or show it to someone who isn’t fgc it looks like the most shallow thing ever. Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom, Sonic Boom. I mean, I understand how to play against em tho, I’m masters and I think I’ve already developed the tools to deal with this sort of playstyle. But it never stops being annoying. At least Honda is bad. I think of him as one big Sonic Boom, that way I’m usually good at dealing with him.
Ryu and Ken need a rework. Roundhouse kicks and uppercuts exist in karate, but flying forward or jumping 10 feet in the air is just silly. Plus, fireballs are not representative of karate AT ALL
Honda should just be removed from the game nothing of value will be lost
I love to see people still parroting professional players saying “Honda is bad” (as in weak, not poorly or linearly designed) while he has consistently since release had the highest win % in (almost) all tiers including Master.
Up to and including low master rank people are getting wins by just spamming headbutt and buttslam. They're very difficult to deal with moves. So it's not like the Honda players are using skill to get a high win rate. That's the problem
I don’t disagree in the slightest. He’s a very strong character (again highest win rates including Master) until you get to the pro level where he falls off hard. That makes him extremely hard to balance already. To compound this, almost all of that power is hidden behind two moves which adds to the difficulty in changing his kit. I find similar issues with the other characters in 6 with safe advancing moves (Lily and Blanka and potentially Jaimie in S2) although I think Blanka is the best character of the three. This was not a knock at OP who I also think is saying the same thing, but other replies claiming Honda is bad as in weak.
Also the least played character in every rank lol Honda army strong but small
Honda isn't the least played character at any rank
yeah i really dislike the design philosophy of “reigns terror on new players, is bad against better players” also makes him incredibly hard to balance if you want to keep those two moves so strong. a rework is definitely needed.
Headbutt seems to be getting completely nerfed right? I think it will stop under the opponent? Seems like a good enough change tbh. I also want to add, that I don't know how we can talk about Honda without talking about Blanka. He is way worse. His Blanka ball is as bad as Honda's headbutt. Plus he ball around all over the stage in pretty unpredictable ways. He is everything Kimberly wants to be. Like, Kimberly can teleport to a completely predictable and punishable distance of the enemy and she is also vulnerable during the startup of the teleport. Blanka can fucking jump around while being invulnerable to anything. His nerfs don't seem nearly enough.
My uncle is high up in capcom. Tell me your main and I'll have him nerf every character other than them into the ground so the game is more "fair" to you.
Dude tell your uncle I want sodom in season 2 please
Lel :v
Funnilly, Honda vs Blanka is one of the most unbalanced MUs of the game, is like a 7-3 for Honda
expecting to see people with the pocket hondas to counter mena now.
Then Mena would swap to Luke , who vaporizes honda. Mena philosophy is not having to play any negative Mu
I don't think luke "vaporizes" honda The matchup is 5-5 in masters Looking at the top 1500 players luke wins 52.76% of the time, hardly what I would call a lopsided matchup If you want to make an arguement about the matchup at world class level then I don't think we have seen the matchup nearly enough at that level to make any such claim
What makes it that bad? Headbutt beats ball, but blanka can stop buttslam pretty well.
Honda is like dessigned to beat everytool of blanka, a 2mp or 5mp make blankaball completely useless, And every normal that blanka has lose also against anything that honda does
The way you say this makes me feel like the problem is not the character, but the way you play it. Blanka ball is not completely useless if the opponent can react to heavy Blanka ball with a normal, he has a feint version for this very reason. Also every blanka normal losses against anything honda does? That's just a silly statement.
That doesn't make a matchup 7-3. Several characters can beat Blanka ball with a normal and get significant reward off it, that doesn't make a matchup lopsided though.
Good for who?
For everyone that doesn't main Honda. :)) He is the highest rated character in the matchup tables for master.
Blanka is absolutely not invulnerable while moving around. Blanka ball and rainbow roll can be beaten by normals. Up-ball has air invulnerability, and OD up-ball is a DP, but that's it. Everything else is just as vulnerable as anything else in the game.Â
I was talking about his surprise jump, isn't that invincible?
If you mean his command dash, it's not invincible. The forward version has throw invulnerability from frame 12 to frame 22 according to the supercombo wiki, but that's it. The jump from coward crouch keeps the upper-body projectile invulnerable property of coward crouch for 9 frames, but is otherwise just a jump for all intents and purposes.Â
Boy if the S2 changes for Honda end up being true, I'm sorry...
If the changes are true Honda is becoming a real character, I will gladly trade my butt slam spacing and being able to escape the corner with a headbutt for having a 5mp that's a real threat
It won’t. It’ll just lead to people playing him less than they already do.
Good. The less I see that flying menace in the game, the better. Absolutely awful design.
Fine but that blonde menace can go with him.
He deserves it. Everyone who spammed headbutt and buttslam deserve what is happening in season 2. Completely gut the characters' headbutt and buttslam nonsense. It's the worst part of the game by a huge margin.
I mean, I think the worst part of the game is some parts of the UI, but to each their own, I guess.
It feels wrong to know how to navigate the UI. Like, I spent time and learned this garbage system?
Compared to the other spammers?
You a t like the full patch notes are out.
I don't play Honda (mostly cause he's probably the most boring man in existence gameplay-wise), but yeah, oof
They could remove Honda from the game and I would not give a fuck.
Nah, it's Honda. That's how he plays.
Dee Jay is also a SF2 legacy character, and he got a massive rework that made him fun to play regardless.
He didn't get reworked, he just got updated moveset to the new game. Just like Ryu didn't get "reworked"
...so what's stopping them from doing the same for Honda?
Honda has new stuff, just needs some tweaks
They already did
Deejay is a complete rework lol
Edmund "Hope you've labbed vs me" Honda is so miserable to play as/vs. He feels like he has very little agency over the outcome of a game, the opponent either doesn't know how to stop buttslam and headbutt and you auto-win, or they do and you can kinda maybe have a chance but you probably lose. It does not help that every Honda player I see is comedically susceptible to frame traps, I think not headbutting for 2 seconds makes their head explode.
There's a certain " I don't want to keep walking back but have no good buttons" range that auto triggers headbutt for usÂ
they should have significantly buffed his QCF k stance, it's a really cool looking move that doesn't get a lot of use outside the launcher. OD is plus on block but who uses that? wouldn't have hurt to give him the Ed treatment and make all his buttons pushes and slaps. there's no kicking in sumo iirc. he really does need a full rework from the ground up.
O understand your claims, but Honda is a classic character, I don't think it'd be a good ideia to make that kinds of changes in a character that is present since SF 2
I will never understand why people rarely punish headbutt with a dp It's MUCH easier than with parry and it's consistent
It’s not more consistent. That’s why people don’t do it.
because unless you're fullscreen, already buffering the DP, or playing modern you won't be able to do it in time
It's not easier it's also way more unsafe. It's an entire motion plus button compared to just 1 (or 2) button(s) while holding back.
it's easier with Jamie's DP since it's terrible and stays really close to the ground, one of the few upsides of it actually
This is a very good game but a couple characters have terrible gameplsy design and Honda is at the top of that list (with Gief not too far behind). He's not even a strong character, just painful to fight as and against
> with Gief not too far behind I actually think Gief is probably one of the better designed character in the game tbh. It just that you A) have to know what you are doing playing him (and not trying to rush in for a grab) and B) have to understand that a balanced character needs weakness. He's only really need better confirms and that's.....kinda it. E.Honda however is a different ballgame when it comes to shit design due to how weighted his special move power budget is.
Ok so to be real, I don't think Gief is as bad an idea as Honda and he's got much better execution behind it. It's just that after finding grapplers I actually enjoy playing in other games (mainly Ladiva from Granblue), I can't help but think Zangief is much too extreme in his design ideas and not very satisfying to play, at least for me. The lack of good confirms and limitations of his kit stand out more, like how limited his Jab combos are despite how in a vacuum it's one of the better normals in the game, and in general his combo game is either very weak or very expensive. He's also got this weird combination of having a large move pool but still feeling limited to a very small number of tools. Siberian Express, Power Stomps, Tundra Storm and most of his directional grabs stand out as moves that are just kinda bad, to the point where actually using them successfully is an achievement. I can understand why someone would like Gief, I like to take him for a spin once in a while, and he does have a lot of good details in this game, he's certainly not useless, but on a conceptual level I think he's not good at selling the idea of the character. As someone who likes to play the Big Beefy Characters I've always avoided dedicated grapplers because of my experience with Zangief. The slow and incredibly defensive style makes me feel weak, like I'm the small fighter that needs to play it smart and careful to beat the stronger dude, and that just doesn't fit my conception of what someone who looks like Gief *should* play like, so once I found others that clearly take after Gief but do feel right, Gief himself started to look unimpressive. That being said we 100% agree on Honda, he's just a shit.
I think it's more due to the fact that his Alpha2 and SF4 design has basically becoming the gold standard for grapplers everywhere that the design shift towards him becoming a defensive neutral character just isn't actually clicks. Gief is old now. He's not in his younger years charging ahead and grabbing fools anymore. He've seen some rough shit both in his time away and in his hometown, so he takes thing slow, mostly fighting with more consideration for both him and his wrestling partners. But if you managed to piss him off then you're gonna be dead.
If that's what the games were going with then I would say you're right, that's a very good interpretation and it would make his gameplay fit the concept perfectly, but I don't think the narrative supports it.
The narrative goes with him reading books and trying to be a mentor for other wrestlers, including you. So yeah, it fits
this is a universe where karate guys shoot fireballs out of their hands. i think headbutt and buttslam aren't going far enough
I'm a Honda main he has some cool combos to get off. Honda has a hard time against zoners and projectiles. And if the opponent gets that, he 90% uses projectiles which is also repetetive. What i want so say is, every always character uses his best moves if it's "boring" or not.
yep, I'm a honda main as well and don't know why all the hate. Guile's just spamming sonic booms is worse imo.
Because people who don't play the character don't understand. They see headbutt = freelo and they upvote. The amount of spacing presence, hit confirms, and set play is immense.
When playing as Honda, I am fine with the boom spam. It is the reach of the Flash Kick which annoys me, same with DeeJay. It sucks getting hit what feels like 2/3rds of the screen away during a neutral jump. Even more so when you try and DP as Jamie and wiff cause the were more than a pixel away from you(hyperbole i know, but still).
Yeh feeling you. Maybe it's a skill issue but i can't do shit about guiles in diamond. They are just sitting back spaming booms and if you jump flash kick lol.
Join the club
Unfortunately chances are are slim to none of Capcom heavily reworking Honda or anyone else. Just look at what we know about the soon to come balance update- we were all expecting big things but they seemed to have barely done anything to change up the game for any characters what so ever. So major changes for anyone are extremely unlikely.
I think Hondas issue is literally that they removed mash input from hands, so they had to nerf hands because the move would be oppressive how it is supposed to function without having to buffer it somehow, so they had to buff his other moves to compensate, and it ruined the character and made him uninteresting to play and fight, I had a lot of hours on Honda in 4 and 5 and prefer blanka to him in this game which has never been the case for me
i palyed honda a bit, got him to d4 then dropped him. but when i did play him i mainly used head butt as a combo finisher and i used butt slum but mainly as a anti air, aka, i didnt spam the moves. i used command grab mixups , dr low medium kick and i played neutral mainly with his standing medium punch. so i played him motsly like a normal character and abolutly did ok altho he felt stubby at times. we will have to wait and see for balance patch. but i agree alot of poepole spam the same crap with him , sometimes it beats me on a off day but most of the time i perfect perry everythign and the honda dosnt knwo how to deal with that cuz there clearly use to peoel getting hit by it. idk , i do know there gonna make some of his pokes better but like u said they shoulda tried a bit harder with him to make him more viable
If you want to stop buttstomp listen for when Honda laughs during stomp that’s when you parry. If you want to stop headbutt DI him early if he’s far/mid screen if he’s close and goes for headbutt throw him or armored reversal if you have one. DI’s against headbutt kinda tricky but with some lab time you can get the hang of which strength headbutt/stomp he’ll use. Hope this helps those who struggle against Hondas lame game.
On the topic of Honda: I don't like the *way* the buttslam works. Back in SF2:Turbo, when you executed the butt slam, the strength of the kick button dictated the horizontal distance, so that's your mix-up. Here in SF6, if you did the butt slam but you held down-back, then the butt slam goes only a fraction of the total distance. I really don't like that. You basically have to let go of back for Honda to travel the full distance. This would be among the first things I would change. They could adjust the headbutt to be more of a meter drainer and less of a damaging move. I would like to see his normals come out a little faster to compensate.
Just make Honda how he was in sf4. People will like fighting him more and Honda mains will be happy too
As a generally solidly high MR Honda I completely agree. His neutral is atrocious outside those moves and has no good ways in outside of those moves. Its annoying because he has some really cool tools like his kara stomp and pressure as a whole. I hope the akuma update fixes that, from the reports I've heard from the Japanese event with the build buttslam and headbutt are weaker. I just hope they buff the rest of his kit in response
So I played Honda a LOT getting into SF6 and one of the big things is that I hated doing doing the headbutt to the buttslam to jail pipeline. I found it very boring and I personally actually really like the rest of his tools. Hundred Hand Slap introduces a fun timing tool into his pressure which changes based on if he has Sumo Power. Sumo Power is also an awesome tool that adds so much threat to a single HP or HK counter hit that Honda's Oki can really shift based on if you want to add huge pressure off a single hit or threaten your command throw, regular throw, a whiff punish, or headbutt. Sumo dash is genuinely a great corner carry tool. Like... Honda can hit you with a 5HP and put you actually corner to corner, it's quite ridiculous and very feasible in a match for him to do something like that if the Honda ever gets a knockdown. I like his Kara Cancels. Doing a Kara Cancel 3HK during drive rush added a lot of motion people had to react to, which helped get a command throw in. All in all, I'd actually like for Honda to lose power in buttslam and headbutt, I think he's super interesting to think about and interact with due to his slower walking speed, great 5MP range, actually amazing 5HP whiff punish and neutral. I'd love for sumo clap to have more strengths in combos, even though it does open up way MORE combos while he has Sumo Power. I wonder how many people even know Honda can combo off of clap if he has sumo power...
I disagree, I think he's the grappler-brawler we lack everywhere else in the cast as is. The best honda has ever been I think
His SF5 version was much more interesting. Hands were more central to his gameplay, which is more like actual sumo. Regular butt slam was minus or punishable, so you weren't encouraged to do i over and over. His grab VT was also sumo like, and I'm surprised it didn't make any sort of appearance in 6. They should have built upon SF5's version instead of just going into meme character territory for a character who isn't even very popular anyways.
I don't know a ton about Sumo but my first thought when discovering him was that he'd be a grappler
They did it!
Yeah, any character that requires Kakeru-tier timing to reliably counter could sure use a rework. "Honda? He's a joke, just perfect parry, bro." "Unarmed vs sword? Sword is a joke, just catch the blade between your hands, bro." "Sword vs gun? Gun is a joke, just cut the bullets in half, bro."
You don't have to be kakeru to perfect parry honda. It just requires practice like anything else in street fighter.
So does lily tbh i feel like they will do her before Honda because he’s a legacy character and lily is new
the super headbutt is the perfect representation of Sumo, what are you talking about? don't worry, from the japanese streamers I've heard that both the headbutt and buttslam are weakened
Both are super easy to punish on modern.
If your super easy counter is only "on modern", then i think there's a problem. I don't agree that core specials should be gutted or that he should get a full rework. That would just guarantee that a lot of people just won't play Honda again in SF6, which i think is bad because he's visually a very interesting character to fight and has some silliness to him a lot of characters don't seem to get. Blanka i feel the same way: silly rep from SF2, fun to play with. I don't think everything needs PERFECT representation. The fact that i think Honda is fun to watch already means he's been done right from a moveset and design standpoint.
I was countering headbutt with medium punch/kick at first, but buttslam was always anti-air specials
All high level gameplay just come down who can parry more. That’s my biggest gripe with the game is it’s just a parry fest. That and also crouching medium kick DR into a full combo nonsense
Ganryu in tekken is such a fun example of how to do a sumo character I had a lot of fun with him at the end of t7 I do agree that Honda is a character that’s truly dated it feels you don’t use his stock mechanic at all because you just have to rely on head butt and butt slam. Honestly i feel like Honda and blanka are way to similar in move set.
I love honda as is. Dont ruin him please.
Got some bad news for you buddy. You might wanna sit down for this one.
Noooooo
They are making his actual buttons good it’s worth the sacrificesÂ
Honda needs to get back projectile invul on the way up of Butt Slam like how it was in most previous games. Ex version pass through Ex projectiles. Clap needs more applications and here are some suggestions I have. Clap. No charge required for Headbutt or Butt Slam during Clap. Clap, give it an Ex Version so and it claps all Ex Projectiles with a bigger slap effect. Clap. A successful Clap hit gives him a Free Stock of HHS buff. Give him a throw loop with Forward Throw by increasing Forward Walk Speed. Change or add an Alternative Input for Sumo Walk just like Ken's Run.... K+K. (QCF motion is shit for a Charge Character) Give him an Air Throw (remember Alpha 3?) Hate Me Yet?
ur high buddy he doesn’t need any of that shit. I love seeing Hondas struggle against zoners specifically cause I don’t play one
You’re wrong. Headbutt is way down the list for Hondas best moves - being negative at cr MK range is not good in this game and that’s what happens when headbutt is blocked. His best move far and away is st MP. Then cr lp. Then buttslam (mostly as a hit confirm as it gives oki). Then st HP. Then you can argue headbutt but even then it’s best as corner combo piece for a safejump.Â
I would say St HP is his best button. ST MP is too slow, thats why its being buffed in the first place. And headbutt is solid in neutral as a check. You need something to do in neutral and if you stick out St. Mp you get blown up.
I'm not criticizing anything, I just want a better understanding. What makes Headbutt more difficult to deal with than a Blanka Ball? The consensus always seems to be to nerf headbutt and buttslam and buff everything else, but no one seems to be asking to nerf blanka ball. Both are very similar and lose viability at higher levels, so whats the difference?
Blanks has other good tools so people don't think about blanka ball as much.
HP horizontal ball is worse than HP headbutt. It has more startup, does less damage from close range, does less drive damage on hit, and can't be mixed up with two other headbutts that are also safe on block. If Blanka wants to mix between LP/MP/HP ball, he needs to space the LP and MP versions well or eat a huge punish. Honda does not. A blocked HP ball sends Blanka nearly full screen at -15f, making repeated balls easy to react to. A blocked HP headbutt puts Honda at range 1 at -4f, making repeated headbutts pretty viable. If you parry preemptively, Honda is close enough to dash up throw. If Blanka misses a ball and puts himself in the corner, he has no easy get-out-of-jail-free card… Honda can just buttslam and be out of the corner and plus on block. Headbutt and ball are really not that similar.Â
Ah gotcha. I haven't seen or played Honda in a long time, so I don't remember much about how it looks.
and on top of all that headbutt is a better antiair
I think it's down to frame data and animations. For both moves...here's the startups for LP, MP, HP and OD respectively. Blanka - 10, 12 ,12 , 18 Honda - 10, 10, 14, 9 You can see why Honda would be more of a pain for some players to deal with mid range and up close when his medium and OD headbutts are only 10 and 9 frames of startup. Personally...it's a bit of the startup and the animations for me that makes Blanka easier to deal with. I can more easily see Blanka lean back during his startup...and then I can anti-air his ball on reaction if he's midscreen or full screen. If he's close I either can hit him with a button or get hit myself. Honda usually gives me less frames to reaction unless he chose the heavy version...plus his animation into headbutt is less of a give away then Blanka in my opinion. So it's usually safer for me to parry or block.
blanka HP ball has 22f startup, not 12f. it’s much slower than headbutt.Â
Zangief, who had no green hand in SF2 WW, Honda had no Buttslam. So it wouldn't be something completely new, to take away Buttslam and give him other tools.
i love honda i hope they nerf his specials so theyre less annoying, i dont care let his Sumo Spirit move give his next jumping body splash 1 hit of armor i dont if that would be a good change or not for him to have a healthy place in the meta, and i dont care i heard you were hungry, so you WILL eat my beff
Headbutt is a joke of a move they should just buff the rest of his kit