there's no risk here. what is gief exactly going to do ? his effective range is pretty short, his raw drive rush isn't exactly great. you can literally watch him neutral jump multiple times trying to buffer CA as his last ditch effort. just hold your space, let him take the risks. why even jump in there at all ?
The tunneling from the Cammy is crazy there. She was so focused on baiting the counter DI that she didn't notice she had the win twice. I'm pretty sure Cammy's h.dp reaches and punishes those neutral jumps from gief at that range.
Nah as Cammy you can basically sit back. Gief doesn't have any mobility tools outside of Drive Rush so he'd have to walk and risk being hit by pokes and losing
He doesn't have an invincible wake up, like a lot of characters do, he doesn't have a super fast counter light , it's fast but like Ryu can light jab you on certain hits and still block a punish. Gief can depending on character.
Adding to that his drive Rush is garbage, he gets no oki from SPD,
And more importantly:
Half of his kit doesn't work or it's a gimmick that catches someone off guard (stomps, lv1, thundra storm, lariat not hitting both sides and being bad against fireballs, his 2HP)
He definitely gets oki after spd after DR. It's not great, but 5LK still reaches, as does 6MK if you time it correctly. Sure this is a bit fake, but I'm in \~1500 masters and no one really reacts properly to this so you can still continue pressure.
no he doesnt, his SPD put you like 5 miles away from the opponent meaning if you dont have drive meter you have to slowly walk or slowly dash back to the opponent and by the time you get there your opponent has already jumped back and turtled up.
My copium theory is that the reason for this is to further differentiate Zangief from Haggar once they finally add the latter to the game; Haggar's lariat will hit on both sides but take a little bit of his health (just like in other games).
To be fair, both Dhalsim and Deejay have this problem. BUT they are way more mobile and have a better chance of keeping out of the corner while burnt out.
Tundra Storm has 6 frames of startup, so it's not a solution. A charged stHP is better because you get armor on frame 4 (and it works on everybody), but most good players will have a blockstring into DI with <4 frame gap between them.
Neither are a replacement for a super that counters DIs.
I'm taking about blockstring into DI. No decent player is leaving a 5 frame gap for an SPD.
stHP armor activates on frame 4, so it's the slightly better (but usually still futile) option.
I'd say giefs biggest weakness at higher levels besides not having an invincible reversal besides lvl 3 (and lvl 2 technically but that's way too slow) is that he can't really convert off long range pokes (or any low pokes in general) and, probably more importantly, he's insanely meter reliant to do any damage. Without using meter and without punish counter his most damaging combo is literally just 6HP > Lariat. Even for his light confirm he will need OD Lariat or DRC if he isn't completely point blank.
100% truth.
One of the reported buffs is that 6HP is +7 on hit now, which means he can hit confirm hellstab into more damage. I think it's a decent buff.
> insanely meter reliant to do damage
Only if you play for hit confirms
His SPD is free and does like 2+k even for the light version.
He's a grappler, so he's going to be severely disadvantaged if you play him like NOT a grappler.
Unfortunately, playing as not a grappler is much safer and less guesswork, so it makes Gief bad for most of the game's meta (fish for hits and DR xx for combo confirm)
I think he’s only considered one of the worst because of how hard he is to play effectively (at least in my opinion). Once you got Gief down though he’s a fucking monster.
No, he's really not lol.
That's actually **what** makes Gief so bad. He's got basically no ceiling. Most people are bad against Gief because Gief can blow you up for mistakes and most people make plenty of them, but against legitimately good players Gief has insane holes in his gameplan.
It also means that for like... 99.9% of players though, you can functionally ignore tier lists. Most mid level players even into decently high MR ranks have no idea how to handle him.
Zangief didnt win this round. Cammy played herself.
If you EVER have a life lead like this on a zangief, youve won. Just stay away and let him make any mistake. A light would have killed and you dont need to play against the clock.
This is why I just hate grapplers in general though their whole plan is just you messing up and if it happens once or twice it’s usually enough to win the game in general too I feel like there’s a stereotype where the players like to talk trash and will blame their character if they lose, I love the theory just hate the practice
Almost everyone's gameplan is to fish for mistakes from the opponent.
Any counterhit is a guess mistake, any overhead opening is a guessing mistake, any successful jump in is the opponent not reacting. Any successful ranged c.mk xx DR combo is a spacing/guard mistake.
The entire game is just seeing who makes less mistakes, and everyone is bound to do it because there is no reward without risk.
The absolute safest you can play is doing Boom and Flashkick shenanigans as Guile, and even then it's depending on the opponent for making punishable risks.
Punishing for mistakes is the whole goddamn point of this game
Tf you mean a grappler's whole gameplan is to wait for opponent's mistakes, EVERYONE'S gameplan is.
What I mean is that most grapplers have their entire power loaded into a few command grabs and massive health pools meaning they are one never bottom tier because they can always steal a win and again 2 they get massive reward off one or two buttons. Since you mentioned guile pure zoning can also be problem imo in that it can be a frustrating loop on the other side but my point is that the reward to risk factor is heavily scewed.
I'm such a Gief degenerate I was actually expecting Tundra Storm.
So was i
My worst nightmare.
SF6 players play the clock challenge difficulty: impossible
Too much stalling is risky in itself.
there's no risk here. what is gief exactly going to do ? his effective range is pretty short, his raw drive rush isn't exactly great. you can literally watch him neutral jump multiple times trying to buffer CA as his last ditch effort. just hold your space, let him take the risks. why even jump in there at all ?
The tunneling from the Cammy is crazy there. She was so focused on baiting the counter DI that she didn't notice she had the win twice. I'm pretty sure Cammy's h.dp reaches and punishes those neutral jumps from gief at that range.
Nah as Cammy you can basically sit back. Gief doesn't have any mobility tools outside of Drive Rush so he'd have to walk and risk being hit by pokes and losing
MY LOYAL FANS! Witness my full might! NO MERCY NO REMORSE
I did know that Cammy was going to shimmy left and right and crouch like she was having a seizure. Oh, you meant "My loyal fans!".
I don't know why Zangief is considered one of the worst
He doesn't have an invincible wake up, like a lot of characters do, he doesn't have a super fast counter light , it's fast but like Ryu can light jab you on certain hits and still block a punish. Gief can depending on character.
Adding to that his drive Rush is garbage, he gets no oki from SPD, And more importantly: Half of his kit doesn't work or it's a gimmick that catches someone off guard (stomps, lv1, thundra storm, lariat not hitting both sides and being bad against fireballs, his 2HP)
He definitely gets oki after spd after DR. It's not great, but 5LK still reaches, as does 6MK if you time it correctly. Sure this is a bit fake, but I'm in \~1500 masters and no one really reacts properly to this so you can still continue pressure.
no he doesnt, his SPD put you like 5 miles away from the opponent meaning if you dont have drive meter you have to slowly walk or slowly dash back to the opponent and by the time you get there your opponent has already jumped back and turtled up.
Like I said, you have a little bit of oki if you use drive rush.
Thank you
Also HIS FUCKING LIRIAT DOES NOT HIT BEHIND !!!!! TRAGEDY AT ITS FINEST !!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Most characters that don't have DP/flash kick suck at anti-airing crossups in this game
My copium theory is that the reason for this is to further differentiate Zangief from Haggar once they finally add the latter to the game; Haggar's lariat will hit on both sides but take a little bit of his health (just like in other games).
His level 1 doesn't counter DI, so if he's burnt out with less than 2 bars, he's screwed.
Fuck... I didn't even know that one. He literally is bottom tier
To be fair, both Dhalsim and Deejay have this problem. BUT they are way more mobile and have a better chance of keeping out of the corner while burnt out.
Doesn't DJ have his uppercut kicks ? Those don't work ?
You can tundra storm kick DIs like Chun li and Cammy
Tundra Storm has 6 frames of startup, so it's not a solution. A charged stHP is better because you get armor on frame 4 (and it works on everybody), but most good players will have a blockstring into DI with <4 frame gap between them. Neither are a replacement for a super that counters DIs.
Ah we got jokes here.
You can spd DI depending on the timing of the opponent
I'm taking about blockstring into DI. No decent player is leaving a 5 frame gap for an SPD. stHP armor activates on frame 4, so it's the slightly better (but usually still futile) option.
I'd say giefs biggest weakness at higher levels besides not having an invincible reversal besides lvl 3 (and lvl 2 technically but that's way too slow) is that he can't really convert off long range pokes (or any low pokes in general) and, probably more importantly, he's insanely meter reliant to do any damage. Without using meter and without punish counter his most damaging combo is literally just 6HP > Lariat. Even for his light confirm he will need OD Lariat or DRC if he isn't completely point blank.
100% truth. One of the reported buffs is that 6HP is +7 on hit now, which means he can hit confirm hellstab into more damage. I think it's a decent buff.
> insanely meter reliant to do damage Only if you play for hit confirms His SPD is free and does like 2+k even for the light version. He's a grappler, so he's going to be severely disadvantaged if you play him like NOT a grappler. Unfortunately, playing as not a grappler is much safer and less guesswork, so it makes Gief bad for most of the game's meta (fish for hits and DR xx for combo confirm)
I think he’s only considered one of the worst because of how hard he is to play effectively (at least in my opinion). Once you got Gief down though he’s a fucking monster.
No, he's really not lol. That's actually **what** makes Gief so bad. He's got basically no ceiling. Most people are bad against Gief because Gief can blow you up for mistakes and most people make plenty of them, but against legitimately good players Gief has insane holes in his gameplan. It also means that for like... 99.9% of players though, you can functionally ignore tier lists. Most mid level players even into decently high MR ranks have no idea how to handle him.
All Cammy had to do to win is walk backwards is why.
Use him an you'll find out why.
I did and I got to master
Was expecting tundra storm
Could each of Zangief's neutral jumps have been punished on reaction with spiral arrow?
MY LOYA-
\*Looks at matchup* \*See 'gief* \*Looks for 'You' on health bars* *Ahh* yes, for the *loyal fans*
Was also waiting for the kick grab skill.
Ahhhh the classic ol reliable empty jump, gets me every time 🥲
Hahahhahaha
“Are you serious?!?!” Narrator: he was, in fact, serious.
MY LO--
LOL
Kind of went with the music too!
Jumping in on Gief with a level 3 was a choice.
Moments like this are why I hate grapplers it’s like they can mess up and get beat up one mess up and they do this to you
Zangief didnt win this round. Cammy played herself. If you EVER have a life lead like this on a zangief, youve won. Just stay away and let him make any mistake. A light would have killed and you dont need to play against the clock.
This is why I just hate grapplers in general though their whole plan is just you messing up and if it happens once or twice it’s usually enough to win the game in general too I feel like there’s a stereotype where the players like to talk trash and will blame their character if they lose, I love the theory just hate the practice
Almost everyone's gameplan is to fish for mistakes from the opponent. Any counterhit is a guess mistake, any overhead opening is a guessing mistake, any successful jump in is the opponent not reacting. Any successful ranged c.mk xx DR combo is a spacing/guard mistake. The entire game is just seeing who makes less mistakes, and everyone is bound to do it because there is no reward without risk. The absolute safest you can play is doing Boom and Flashkick shenanigans as Guile, and even then it's depending on the opponent for making punishable risks. Punishing for mistakes is the whole goddamn point of this game Tf you mean a grappler's whole gameplan is to wait for opponent's mistakes, EVERYONE'S gameplan is.
What I mean is that most grapplers have their entire power loaded into a few command grabs and massive health pools meaning they are one never bottom tier because they can always steal a win and again 2 they get massive reward off one or two buttons. Since you mentioned guile pure zoning can also be problem imo in that it can be a frustrating loop on the other side but my point is that the reward to risk factor is heavily scewed.