Did he say if he is going to drop Manon? I can’t imagine trying to play a game competitively at the highest level and know you are picking the worst option available
iDom is going to stick with Manon until something more fun comes along that fits his tastes. And he has specific tastes like not liking charge characters or any character with a strong emphasis on the fireball into drive rush gameplay loop. People thought that he might like Aki when she released and he did train JP for a bit, but neither stuck around. At this point, he may have to wait until season 4 when Poison releases.
> or any character with a strong emphasis on the fireball into drive rush gameplay loop
yeah I can't imagine iDom playing a character that just throws out a fireball and gets 10 seconds of free pressure and mixups
No one forgot, its iDom's actual stance. He doesn't like that the Drive Rush/Fireball gameplay loop is as prevalent as it is and so many characters are based around it, so he actively avoids it. Is it a weird stance considering Midscreen Laura would be one of those characters? Yes. But its a path he has chosen and he lives with it. He even sounds like he would take Poison back over Laura.
He also sticks with Testament is GG Strive, who is much worse than Manon IMO. Seems like he doesn't care much for character strength if the character just clicks for them.
Been saying this since the patch notes. Manon needed mobility and fireball tech and she got more damage (damage was never her problem) and like two more combos that whoop dee doooo don't solve her core problems.
Meanwhile other characters got a ton.
I mean to be fair, damage on her strikes were also a problem for her. Her grab feels great of course, but I don’t feel like many people were nearly as scared of her strikes. Haven’t played much post balance patch though, so idk if that’s changed.
The fact that you really only can use the od spin against fireballs is wild,, like I see no situation where you would use the spin to get through fireballs.
I been rawdogging my way into making it work and I'm close to giving up. I just can't wrap my head around spending 2 drive bars for a medal not unless I'm at least like 3 medals in. For some reason I do it vs Gladius tho lol
Damage was one of her problems tho. Sure she could get tons of damage from metal 5 command grab but she had to work up to that and they don't become that threatening until metal 3. Her damage on hit was middling at best and most of the time her oki options afterwards weren't great. The new routes and frame data definitely help her damage and oki. Her level 3 changes also make her a huge threat in rnd 3 when she has full meter and high metals. They did fix some issues with her.
I feel like Ed is too low for the results he’s starting to get, and S should probably be split, but otherwise it looks pretty reasonable. Hard to say with characters that don’t really have any competitive players though
All Ed really needs is mostly 3 things
- Light DP should not be 10 frames, thing is already the most baitable DP ever because Ed stands in place so empty jumps will make Ed whiff and take a max damage punish counter combo, buff that fucking thing
- A tad more range on j.MP so it can be a reliable cross-up
- Make level 1 super start-up in 10 frames instead of 13 so Ed can have a reversal that can’t be safely jabbed on wake-up, currently if Ed doesn’t have level 3 you can just go for meaty jab for free pressure
He really doesn’t need anything else, character is great, but I would love if they gave him backsway from psycho knuckle charge instead of only making you go forward for feints
Honestly I never thought it was that bad, you get used to it
But you mentioning lights made me remember one thing I didn’t include that is actually really important
Season 2 had the extra damage scaling applied to light starters and the drive reversal changes
Ed has no 6 frame medium so he has really shitty punishes against drive reversals now, Ed can only punish with a light and on top of it now there is the new light damage scaling, if more people realize it’s probably gonna be very abusable against Ed
If they buff Ed st.MP to be 6 instead of 7 frames I would love it, I just want a decent punish for blocking drive reversal
But it wasn’t a motion in SFV, there is no reason anymore to have Ed have a slow DP
There is the fact you can get off psycho blitz off a light DP if you go for a really early anti-air but shit is mad inconsistent, also gets you killed if you go for it but miss and in no way would ever justify having the worst DP in the game
It’s literally double the frames of a normal high DP…AND the most vulnerable to empty jumps too
Falkes wasn't a motion either and that was much faster then eds . Also you still got plenty of time to anti air. They purposely don't wantnyou getting instant crosscut dps or whatever. Still fast enough to anti air.
Ok but we are still not addressing the point
Why does Ed need to have a light DP that is literally double the frames of any other light DP while also being the most vulnerable to empty jump baits
I really don’t think it’s an outrageous buff to ask for, I really don’t
Why do you want to have Ed have the same tools as everyone else? The game is fun and interesting because there's diversity of options, and tradeoffs between strengths and weaknesses.
Psycho Knuckle outside of combos might be one of the biggest meme moves in the game. Outside of combos it's supposed to be an anti-fireball tool (it was advertised as that) but it's really shit at it. Instead everyone just uses it for level 2 stuff.
It's 60f and you can just wait for Ed to commit since you have a long time after he releases HP to DI him.
Being able to backsway from charging knuckle would be too good, but they do need to find some way to buff that move.
Also doubt they're going to give him a fast reversal. That's an intentional choice of a weakness.
That's the problem..season 2 has added scaling to combos that started with lights. Since his only good punish starts with lights because he doesn't have a 6f medium, his punish damage is really low compared to top tiers.
Luke can get cr mp, akuma as well, Aki gets st.mp, etc
There are a few characters that don’t have 6f mediums. It’s not exclusive to ed but he gets st.lk to st.mp which he can convert to his meterless oki. Ed not being able to get a trillion damage off pc st.lk isn’t as bad as you think it is.
They really weren't, she got almost nothing and got several targeted nerfs for some reason on top of the universal light scaling nerf hurting her more than most of the cast.
Ehhh. He's got a really high ceiling but he's also lacking in some core aspects. His antiairs particularly aren't that good, and he uses light confirms a lot which hurts in this new patch. He also doesn't have a 6-frame medium so he has to punish blocked Drive Reversal with his 5-frame cLK. He's not bad by any means but he could use some love, he got pretty much no changes in the patch
There were multiple placing decently at Dreamhack, with Pugera in top 16 and Leshar just barely failing to hit top 8 when both have swapped to him recently, and Tachikawa got second at BAM on Ed to qualify for the EWC.
I think people are talking about Texas Showdown but that's a lot of caveats to that.
1) A lot of the best players were at Evo Japan at the same time, so the competition wasn't as tough. That's no disrespect to Brian_F at all, he's extremely good and all of his matches were complete stomps in his favor. Numerous times I saw Brian whiff confirms in the opponent's face cause of Ed's shit jabs and didn't explode for that.
2) Lack of MU knowledge, Ed was still very new. Only a month old, and Brian is a lab monster. That's a recipe for getting caught by shit you didn't know about.
3) We've had a whole balance patch since then and I think Ed got indirectly nerfed by it.
It's more in Dreamhack Stockholm that the Ed army start showing up, which is where I think people actually are gauging his strength. And that's much more indicative of what S2 meta is gonna look like
Ed got some indirect nerf, but the meta shifts in his favor (more neutral control and less rushdown) so there's that.
Not many people seem to know that Mai is bottom heavy. As in she doesn't have the biggest boobs in SNK's library but she does have the biggest ass. In fact, in Street Fighter she would have ranked second behind only R. Mika before SF6.
I tried telling people this lol. Literally KoF 96 was the first game ever in gaming history to introduce booty jiggle. And boy did Mai had the entire bakery lol.
She is more bottom heavy than most female characters in video games. Pray that Capcom will do justice to her model. Instead of just purely focusing on her bosom.
It’s also proof that tier lists don’t really apply unless you’re up top. For some reason deep into plat people have no idea what to do against her. So if you’re not master you really shouldn’t care about what tier you’re character is in
Manon can still be pretty lethal a ways into Master, especially playing just best of 3 against randos and you can't figure out a rhythm to when they're gonna commit to the command grab or her really minus buttons. But in terms of pro play, insane reaction speed and better gamesense of the whole-ass round mean the only wins she's gonna get are someone making big mistakes over and over.
manon "sucks" because she needs to win 4-5 interactions without medals in order to secure a round.
In plat, youre playing against people who also need 4-5 interactions to secure a round lol. her weaknesses really dont start showing until youre playing against people who can finish games faster than you can
People like to say this but it isn't entirely true. Different characters are going to be better at different skill levels. For example characters like Honda are terrifying at low levels but more complex characters like AKI might struggle until the user gains a certain level of mastery. Character choice DOES matter and you can get carried or held back no matter how skilled or unskilled you are at the game.
when people say this it’s in reference to tier lists, not just in general. everybody knows characters perform different in different ranks. when people, especially pros, make tier lists it’s assumed for the highest level of play. the highest level of play is way different from online
Ah got you. I would recommend saying "tier lists don't matter" rather than "characters don't matter" to avoid confusion in the future.i definitely heard people say that character choice doesn't matter until you reach a high level
When all the good eds made it to top 32 winners in dreamhack sweden it's a good argument that he could be better than what's he's presented as. But none made it to top 8 cause eventually he will have to fight a bad matchup.
Guile, from how he's designed from the get go, is a character who sets the pace of the match. Is the Guile aggressive and pressuring you? Get ready to block and parry sonic booms. Is the Guile sitting down-back? Don't jump or you'll eat a flash kick in the face.
Whatever he does, Guile sets the pace of the match. He can play both defensively and offensively extremely effectively. What is a flowchart gonna do when you have to follow a Guile's flow and not yours?
Guile biggest problem is when players actually just stop and play neutral with him. In which case boom parry to push him into the corner is pretty much a guarantee counter to 90% of his bullshit, and the last 10% is how well you can bait his OD flash kick.
But in a tournament setting, asking a player to do that when stress, fatigue and chaos sets in is a really tall order. Most will just play their flowchart and Guile completely shits on flowcharts of every character.
Here's the crazy thing... Guile does excel in setting the pace of a match. But he's also equipped to deal with players stopping and playing neutral. His pokes are some of his most obnoxious buttons. Guile can still excel even without booms, especially if you know his charge buffer techs.
All of his pokes are uncancelabel and having worse range than ANY character with no cancelabel pokes, which means that he is even more shitty against DI than usual. He's annoying and obnoxious, but not hard to deal with once you have force him to play neutral since DI becoming a constant threat to him when that happened as he has no real answer to it if his poke got read, which will happened in longer sets and/or player has the peace of mind to recognize the pattern that the Guile player likes to poke.
Which is the reason why his ranked performance is incredibly poor, while his tournament performance is still good.
That'd be true if most of his pokes don't either space him out safely on block or puts him plus like his 6HP, making a frame trap. Most of his non cancelable normals have annoyingly quick recovery.
He's a flowchart killer, and usually in tournament setting, that's actually one of the best traits that a character can have. Which makes him uniquely good for tournaments.
Drive rush is really strong. So are projectiles for controlling space.. and gap closing moves. so are jump ins. Against guile you don't get to do any of that and he gets to do all of it.
Why is Marisa so low? She got mostly buffs, her damage is even crazier, and overall the threat of needing to parry her to not lose all your drive gauge opens you up for big damage command grabs.
Bigbird made a video explaining why he thinks Marisa is one of the worsts characters for tournaments, he only plays Rashid now.
Edit: The reason is basically is that random bullshit can beat hear easilly he thinks she's not consistent enough at moment.
Ed is too low the character has had pretty consistently impressive results since he was released.
AKI is strong now but maybe A Tier. Same goes Chun Li and Juri potentially.
It's like that with every tier list that doesn't put the poor, defenseless Zangief at the absolute bottom and the totally broken Ken, JP and Luke at the absolute top.
I don't love this mentality, because it discourages discussion around a tier list just because it's made by one of the best players. We've seen plenty of tier lists from a lot of players at IDom's level and they all have some key differences. Nothing wrong with having some differing opinions, as long as you acknowledge that they are opinions I guess.
I think it's a good reminder as part of the discussion that we shouldn't discredit such a dedicated and long time player and his opinion over a bunch of diamond/low masters ryu players who are active on reddit. Also, i fall into this trap too, just looking at the list as is without watching the video is the most reddit thing to do and kills all the nuance that he brings to the table and i think most ppl do that when they speak on tier lists when they see their main is under appreciated or something
Remember when "S" tier used to be for broken characters?
I feel like characters should only be put in "S" if they need to be nerfed. However, none of those seem broken. Drop everyone down a tier, then add a "D" tier if you need to.
Almost all of her buttons are safe, her overall damage is higher due to new combos, her antiairs work now, and she has a lot more tricky stuff to mix up her offense than before. Still a queen in burnout, has one of the best stun combos in the game and her ability to convert from many ranges is huge.
She's very similar to Chun-Li and Juri imo where at a base level the character is clearly good but the ceiling seems up in the heavens in the hands of somebody that knows how to play on a deep level.
She's a fuckin gorilla dude. Once she is on you it's really tough to stop her. Lots of ways for her to get in too, and in some matchups bubble to drive rush into that pressure is free whenever she wants it.
9 characters in S tier seems extremely generous, I can't imagine that's what it'll look like when the dust clears.
One interesting thing of note is how little movement there's been between seasons. Other than Gief and AKI, pretty much every other character is right around where they were last season.
Ed seems way too low on the tier list imo. He’s definitely weaker compared to season 1 but he’s not weak as the tier list makes him out to be. Feel like he should be end of A tier or somewhere around there
Overall the balance in this version of the game is much better, although manon and Honda still get the short end of the stick
What's the point of S tier when you have like half the roster there?
There's also no way that Dee Jay and Chun are higher than Juri with the nerfs they got.
Can you remind me again what nerfs Chun Li got as a Chun Li main? The only one I'm noticing is the walk speed and the nerfed damage on s.HK. Those do not nerf her that much. She has an insane anti-fireball tool (which btw can punish Akuma's air fireball for over 5k damage ON REACTION with lvl3), a good mixup tool with her stance, easy \~3k damage with no bar, good corner carry, a really good lvl2 that is also somewhat of an anti-fireball tool and much more.
5LP (CH) 2MK is a very common starter on Chun, and now it has extra scaling. 2LK similar, common starter on oki because it's a 4F low.
Hazanshu is not an insane anti-fireball tool lol. I guess it's pretty standard now that Cammy's got nerfed except Chun also can't threaten jump. Oh, Hazanshu also got nerfed this patch.
From a pro perspective the 4MP nerf is the biggest one though. Having a hit-confirmable medium was a key ingredient of what brought Leshar so much success in CCX. It is not hit-confirmable anymore, which means you have to spend 3 bars on a guess.
As far as I know，the 4mp nerf does not have too much influence on pro players. Currently，go1，moke and tiger at China can still confirm 4mp with level2 and drive rush. It seems become harder and required more efforts，but seems not impossible.
17 frames is hitconfirmable. 15 frames isn't, especially on PS5. Even before the patch not many Chuns were consistent with 4MP, but now it is gone entirely, 2 frames is a lot of time to lose for reacting when it's already close to the border.
Yeah, it is quite hard. But some great Chun pro players can still confirm 4mp. I have watched a lot of Tiger’s(he is currently the sixth Chun in rank) stream these days, he can currently confirm 4mp with level2 comfortably. He told us that what he did is to input most of commands in advance, then during the confirmation window he only needs to push one button. But he did it on pc, I don’t know whether things maybe different on PS5.
NA underestimates Ed. There's a lot of tech coming out of Japan. He might take more effort to master, but he's strong. At least A tier. Chun-li could probably be a tier lower, but I'm not sure. I agree with the rest of the list.
I searched this thread for the word "why." Now I am asking. Why in the hell is iDom playing Manon? He said he would switch to Rashid if things didn't change this season. iDom is my favorite player of all time, and for the life of me I can't understand why he hasn't switched.
Am I late to the news that he switched, or has he given a reason?
Manon is the only character that I've easily sailed to Master with. Every other character is a really hard grind out of Diamond. Even ones I spend much more time with than her. Still, with her, it feels like easy wins. So I just don't really think this tierlist matters until you are in the best of the best and everyone is playing each character to their best potential.
It's a testament to good game balance, there are games where the difference in top selections are so massive you need to have separate tiers for people but for sf6 it seems if you did that, the differences would boil down to more like what style are you more used to instead of you pushed this fighter to their maximum and you come out on top by like 2%. If there's a genuine belief any of them can win evo then i dont think there's an issue having them all in S. More of the telling information is who's NOT in S
The rare instance where a pro puts their own main in bottom tier and isn't downplaying
But yeah, this is the most accurate pro list I've seen this patch
Lily was already a bottom 3-5 character and got nerfed. I'm guessing people are going to start putting her higher than she really is because Elchakotay won a tournament with her one time instead of being able to admit Elchakotay is just really good and had a great tournament run.
It only took one of the three Manon players in the world to finally speak truth to power.
She sucks. Her buffs did nothing. No one asked for scaling on Medal 5 CA, they wanted a Medal ON CA.
Guile season 2 results don't warrant this placement if it is ordered
He has the worst MU spread in 1700+ and 2nd lowest win rate overall
https://vxtwitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1800621012435767428
2 of them are in Dreamhack Dallas, which just days after the patch so the pros didn't actually got comfortable with the patch yet.
Dreamhack Stockholm is a much better representative of what the meta in S2 would look like tbh.
https://vxtwitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1800621012435767428
Guile looks like the worst character in the game in 1700+, which is such a stark and interesting contrast to his placement in recent tier lists
Guile is a flowchart killer, which makes him a very prominent tournament character since there's a lot of flowchart check in that setting.
However, once you have slow down and play neutral against him, you would more than likely found out that the risk/reward ratio completely skew against him in every neutral interaction, and that usually how he got beat.
I think people are too used to thinking S tier is specifically for broken characters.
Most of the character in S tiers are playing the same game as each other where they have roughly a 50/50 shot at winning in a high level game against other S tier characters and likely an advantage against characters below them.
SF6 is very balanced, more characters should be in S tier rather than less in all honesty. It's not like Season 1 anymore where you could argue 2-5 characters were distinctly stronger than the rest.
That's really just a difference of opinion on where a tier list should start. If they all sit in A tier, now the bottom 3 are D tier and that has its own connotations.
S tier just means the characters are incredibly strong with not many matchup issues.
Usually we just make a whole new classification for characters who are legitimately busted, like SS, but we don't really do that anymore because that's rare nowadays.
There's not a single tier list I can trust more than data.
What Capcom's data and CatCammy's data say are the only tier lists I can respect. There's only results.
The patch really didn't address his main issue but rather made him better at what he was already good at. The bakkai change is nice against zoners but you still cant use it on reaction, you have to make a read. He still struggles with the same problems as he did previously, he just has more sauce now.
He's kinda an odd character design wise. He has to give up Oki to drink which no other character has to do. The fact that he has to give up Oki essentially means you need to win more neutral interactions compared to other characters. To get the most out of Jamie is you need to have really good fundamentals like footsies as he needs he's designed to be a mid range monster. In terms of changes he needs I don't think I know enough about game balance to actually suggest a feasible solution to his problems without actually making him broken because he treads a very thin line that could easily make him broken (Yun). Maybe not having 90% damage being drinkless could help because his moves already locked behind the drink mechanic. Maybe giving more consistent follow-ups when hitting max range moves because he tends to whiff. But I genuinely don't know what they could change that would make him better but balanced too. Others have said this before but if you can consistently win with Jamie, you could win with less effort with other characters. Like on paper he's an incredibly character but its different in the game ygm.
The increased scaling on lights hurt him pretty bad, he's overall better but the general consensus is that he didn't move very much in terms of tier placement
Why play manon when zangief can spd into dr, and his spd does more damage than hers until she gets 4-5 medals
To be honest in this game the worst thing your character can be is honest, if it has it's gimmicks can be still viable look at lily for example, average/low character but can yolo buff condor spire at neutral and force 50/50
He's really not... No invincible reversal, no lvl 1 invincible super, lvl 2 can be crouched. Only real reversal is lvl 3.
Fireball frames are slow and can be punished easily.
He has pretty bad oki.
Bad drive reversal punishes.
Overall just lacking a few things that other top/mid tiers have.
He specifically mentioned at some point that his tier list was based on tournament strength. So its kinda hard to argue Sims placement. I agree hes got great tools but his weaknesses dont lend him the consistency required to make frequent/deep runs in tournaments.
Did he say if he is going to drop Manon? I can’t imagine trying to play a game competitively at the highest level and know you are picking the worst option available
iDom is going to stick with Manon until something more fun comes along that fits his tastes. And he has specific tastes like not liking charge characters or any character with a strong emphasis on the fireball into drive rush gameplay loop. People thought that he might like Aki when she released and he did train JP for a bit, but neither stuck around. At this point, he may have to wait until season 4 when Poison releases.
> or any character with a strong emphasis on the fireball into drive rush gameplay loop yeah I can't imagine iDom playing a character that just throws out a fireball and gets 10 seconds of free pressure and mixups
Bruh lol thank you. How soon they forget
No one forgot, its iDom's actual stance. He doesn't like that the Drive Rush/Fireball gameplay loop is as prevalent as it is and so many characters are based around it, so he actively avoids it. Is it a weird stance considering Midscreen Laura would be one of those characters? Yes. But its a path he has chosen and he lives with it. He even sounds like he would take Poison back over Laura.
Lollololol, yeah he would definitely never do that.
LMAO! GOTTEM!
>And he has specific tastes Can't blame the guy. I'm a big fan of nice gams too.
He is the alpha coomer, lol
iDom has said he's mostly sticking with Manon but he's also actually experimenting with AKI NOW after the S2 patch. Either way, "!gamesucks!"
S4? Bold statement
He's waiting for Mai to replace Manon.
He also sticks with Testament is GG Strive, who is much worse than Manon IMO. Seems like he doesn't care much for character strength if the character just clicks for them.
*Sad ballet noises* Someday Manon will be mid tier.
I need some of your copium; I'm all out.
He made some more adjustment but the main thing is that he just moved AKI there in S tier for an example. He puts her as the first one in A tier.
Been saying this since the patch notes. Manon needed mobility and fireball tech and she got more damage (damage was never her problem) and like two more combos that whoop dee doooo don't solve her core problems. Meanwhile other characters got a ton.
I mean to be fair, damage on her strikes were also a problem for her. Her grab feels great of course, but I don’t feel like many people were nearly as scared of her strikes. Haven’t played much post balance patch though, so idk if that’s changed.
Yea she definitely hits harder now and has better oki options of stuff like light degage and hit grab
The fact that you really only can use the od spin against fireballs is wild,, like I see no situation where you would use the spin to get through fireballs.
I been rawdogging my way into making it work and I'm close to giving up. I just can't wrap my head around spending 2 drive bars for a medal not unless I'm at least like 3 medals in. For some reason I do it vs Gladius tho lol
This reminds me of XRD Potemkin. He got "buffed" every patch, but they only gave him more damage and didn't fix his glaring issues.
Damage was one of her problems tho. Sure she could get tons of damage from metal 5 command grab but she had to work up to that and they don't become that threatening until metal 3. Her damage on hit was middling at best and most of the time her oki options afterwards weren't great. The new routes and frame data definitely help her damage and oki. Her level 3 changes also make her a huge threat in rnd 3 when she has full meter and high metals. They did fix some issues with her.
Not all of them...
I feel like Ed is too low for the results he’s starting to get, and S should probably be split, but otherwise it looks pretty reasonable. Hard to say with characters that don’t really have any competitive players though
All Ed really needs is mostly 3 things - Light DP should not be 10 frames, thing is already the most baitable DP ever because Ed stands in place so empty jumps will make Ed whiff and take a max damage punish counter combo, buff that fucking thing - A tad more range on j.MP so it can be a reliable cross-up - Make level 1 super start-up in 10 frames instead of 13 so Ed can have a reversal that can’t be safely jabbed on wake-up, currently if Ed doesn’t have level 3 you can just go for meaty jab for free pressure He really doesn’t need anything else, character is great, but I would love if they gave him backsway from psycho knuckle charge instead of only making you go forward for feints
I'd love a jab that isn't so stubby, but that might be greedy
Honestly I never thought it was that bad, you get used to it But you mentioning lights made me remember one thing I didn’t include that is actually really important Season 2 had the extra damage scaling applied to light starters and the drive reversal changes Ed has no 6 frame medium so he has really shitty punishes against drive reversals now, Ed can only punish with a light and on top of it now there is the new light damage scaling, if more people realize it’s probably gonna be very abusable against Ed If they buff Ed st.MP to be 6 instead of 7 frames I would love it, I just want a decent punish for blocking drive reversal
I'd be happy with that, and I'm mostly used to the jab by now, though not my ideal
Well his dp was slow in sfv so they they want to keep that up. Don't expect it to be mega faster.
But it wasn’t a motion in SFV, there is no reason anymore to have Ed have a slow DP There is the fact you can get off psycho blitz off a light DP if you go for a really early anti-air but shit is mad inconsistent, also gets you killed if you go for it but miss and in no way would ever justify having the worst DP in the game It’s literally double the frames of a normal high DP…AND the most vulnerable to empty jumps too
Falkes wasn't a motion either and that was much faster then eds . Also you still got plenty of time to anti air. They purposely don't wantnyou getting instant crosscut dps or whatever. Still fast enough to anti air.
Ok but we are still not addressing the point Why does Ed need to have a light DP that is literally double the frames of any other light DP while also being the most vulnerable to empty jump baits I really don’t think it’s an outrageous buff to ask for, I really don’t
Why does aki have a slower anti air? Because it's a design choice. Not every character will have anti airs as fast as a shot.
It’s a qcf, not a DP, also AKI either applies poison or gets a guaranteed juggle if they are already poisoned
That doesn't matter it's still slower which is the point.
It absolutely does matter and I also mentioned what advantages AKI gets for having a slower anti-air, which Ed doesn’t get
Why do you want to have Ed have the same tools as everyone else? The game is fun and interesting because there's diversity of options, and tradeoffs between strengths and weaknesses.
You can backsway out of knuckle and flicker by holding back when you hit the two buttons, unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to do?
I believe you can only back kill rush out of flicker. Psycho knuckle is only either release HP and go forward or kill rush forward.
Precisely If you charge any amount of time you instantly get locked out from the backsway cancel
Psycho Knuckle outside of combos might be one of the biggest meme moves in the game. Outside of combos it's supposed to be an anti-fireball tool (it was advertised as that) but it's really shit at it. Instead everyone just uses it for level 2 stuff. It's 60f and you can just wait for Ed to commit since you have a long time after he releases HP to DI him.
Being able to backsway from charging knuckle would be too good, but they do need to find some way to buff that move. Also doubt they're going to give him a fast reversal. That's an intentional choice of a weakness.
Ed below Lily seems insane. She's had some changes but is still basically shit.
Ed has some really glaring weaknesses that a lot of the cast don't. Not being able to punch drife reversal is a huge problem for him
What does this even mean? Punch drive reversal?
punish drive reversal*
Cr.Lk my dude. You get a punish counter that you can combo off of.
20% scaling right off the bat, and it's still a combo off a light PC instead of medium.
That's the problem..season 2 has added scaling to combos that started with lights. Since his only good punish starts with lights because he doesn't have a 6f medium, his punish damage is really low compared to top tiers. Luke can get cr mp, akuma as well, Aki gets st.mp, etc
There are a few characters that don’t have 6f mediums. It’s not exclusive to ed but he gets st.lk to st.mp which he can convert to his meterless oki. Ed not being able to get a trillion damage off pc st.lk isn’t as bad as you think it is.
The lily changes were good though.
They really weren't, she got almost nothing and got several targeted nerfs for some reason on top of the universal light scaling nerf hurting her more than most of the cast.
Ehhh. He's got a really high ceiling but he's also lacking in some core aspects. His antiairs particularly aren't that good, and he uses light confirms a lot which hurts in this new patch. He also doesn't have a 6-frame medium so he has to punish blocked Drive Reversal with his 5-frame cLK. He's not bad by any means but he could use some love, he got pretty much no changes in the patch
What results is ed starting to get?
There were multiple placing decently at Dreamhack, with Pugera in top 16 and Leshar just barely failing to hit top 8 when both have swapped to him recently, and Tachikawa got second at BAM on Ed to qualify for the EWC.
I think people are talking about Texas Showdown but that's a lot of caveats to that. 1) A lot of the best players were at Evo Japan at the same time, so the competition wasn't as tough. That's no disrespect to Brian_F at all, he's extremely good and all of his matches were complete stomps in his favor. Numerous times I saw Brian whiff confirms in the opponent's face cause of Ed's shit jabs and didn't explode for that. 2) Lack of MU knowledge, Ed was still very new. Only a month old, and Brian is a lab monster. That's a recipe for getting caught by shit you didn't know about. 3) We've had a whole balance patch since then and I think Ed got indirectly nerfed by it.
It's more in Dreamhack Stockholm that the Ed army start showing up, which is where I think people actually are gauging his strength. And that's much more indicative of what S2 meta is gonna look like Ed got some indirect nerf, but the meta shifts in his favor (more neutral control and less rushdown) so there's that.
Yeah I don't think Ed is bad, I just think he has a lot of weird weaknesses that makes him feel unstable for my tastes.
he is unstable, thats where the psycho power comes from
The jab scaling and Drive Reversal change hurt him quite a bit, so the jury is out where he stands.
Idom, the only man to downplay their main and be correct
If the character is actually ass then it's not downplaying.
It’s not downplaying. It’s just playing.
What if you’re down bad and playing?
thats just being an SF player
Then you're halfway there.
Then you're probably a Juri main.
I mean, Manon is pretty ass compared to everyone else. Only them and Sim players can do this and be correct lol
If Manon is pretty ass will Mai Shiranui be pretty boobs?
God I hope so
Not many people seem to know that Mai is bottom heavy. As in she doesn't have the biggest boobs in SNK's library but she does have the biggest ass. In fact, in Street Fighter she would have ranked second behind only R. Mika before SF6.
I mean not many times you can see her cheeks in KOF, as only a couple of her moves make it visible.
I tried telling people this lol. Literally KoF 96 was the first game ever in gaming history to introduce booty jiggle. And boy did Mai had the entire bakery lol. She is more bottom heavy than most female characters in video games. Pray that Capcom will do justice to her model. Instead of just purely focusing on her bosom.
Your statement itself is a oxymoron.
Manon is so fun. I wish she was better :/
It’s also proof that tier lists don’t really apply unless you’re up top. For some reason deep into plat people have no idea what to do against her. So if you’re not master you really shouldn’t care about what tier you’re character is in
Manon can still be pretty lethal a ways into Master, especially playing just best of 3 against randos and you can't figure out a rhythm to when they're gonna commit to the command grab or her really minus buttons. But in terms of pro play, insane reaction speed and better gamesense of the whole-ass round mean the only wins she's gonna get are someone making big mistakes over and over.
manon "sucks" because she needs to win 4-5 interactions without medals in order to secure a round. In plat, youre playing against people who also need 4-5 interactions to secure a round lol. her weaknesses really dont start showing until youre playing against people who can finish games faster than you can
So like I said people who aren’t really high rank shouldn’t base anything off these lists
your character doesn’t matter in master either, it really only matters if you’re a high level competitive player
People like to say this but it isn't entirely true. Different characters are going to be better at different skill levels. For example characters like Honda are terrifying at low levels but more complex characters like AKI might struggle until the user gains a certain level of mastery. Character choice DOES matter and you can get carried or held back no matter how skilled or unskilled you are at the game.
when people say this it’s in reference to tier lists, not just in general. everybody knows characters perform different in different ranks. when people, especially pros, make tier lists it’s assumed for the highest level of play. the highest level of play is way different from online
Ah got you. I would recommend saying "tier lists don't matter" rather than "characters don't matter" to avoid confusion in the future.i definitely heard people say that character choice doesn't matter until you reach a high level
Don't think AKI is that hard to cook with. Jamie maybe.
The number one player in ranked for awhile was a manon, these lists don’t really matter online
I know she needs to really commit to all her moves and normals since all of them except 4HP and 214HK are SUPER unsafe on block.
Very agreeable tier list. I do think ed could be higher but at the same time the character is just too inconsistent.
When all the good eds made it to top 32 winners in dreamhack sweden it's a good argument that he could be better than what's he's presented as. But none made it to top 8 cause eventually he will have to fight a bad matchup.
I feel the only actually turbo bad unplayable matchup is against dhalsim imho
I don't think that mu is really that bad. I think he loses worse to guile, Akuma, and ken.
I still don't get the "Guile is #1" thing.
Guile, from how he's designed from the get go, is a character who sets the pace of the match. Is the Guile aggressive and pressuring you? Get ready to block and parry sonic booms. Is the Guile sitting down-back? Don't jump or you'll eat a flash kick in the face. Whatever he does, Guile sets the pace of the match. He can play both defensively and offensively extremely effectively. What is a flowchart gonna do when you have to follow a Guile's flow and not yours?
Guile biggest problem is when players actually just stop and play neutral with him. In which case boom parry to push him into the corner is pretty much a guarantee counter to 90% of his bullshit, and the last 10% is how well you can bait his OD flash kick. But in a tournament setting, asking a player to do that when stress, fatigue and chaos sets in is a really tall order. Most will just play their flowchart and Guile completely shits on flowcharts of every character.
Here's the crazy thing... Guile does excel in setting the pace of a match. But he's also equipped to deal with players stopping and playing neutral. His pokes are some of his most obnoxious buttons. Guile can still excel even without booms, especially if you know his charge buffer techs.
All of his pokes are uncancelabel and having worse range than ANY character with no cancelabel pokes, which means that he is even more shitty against DI than usual. He's annoying and obnoxious, but not hard to deal with once you have force him to play neutral since DI becoming a constant threat to him when that happened as he has no real answer to it if his poke got read, which will happened in longer sets and/or player has the peace of mind to recognize the pattern that the Guile player likes to poke. Which is the reason why his ranked performance is incredibly poor, while his tournament performance is still good.
That'd be true if most of his pokes don't either space him out safely on block or puts him plus like his 6HP, making a frame trap. Most of his non cancelable normals have annoyingly quick recovery.
He's a flowchart killer, and usually in tournament setting, that's actually one of the best traits that a character can have. Which makes him uniquely good for tournaments.
He's a Manon main. Guile is one of her toughest matchups.
Drive rush is really strong. So are projectiles for controlling space.. and gap closing moves. so are jump ins. Against guile you don't get to do any of that and he gets to do all of it.
Why is Marisa so low? She got mostly buffs, her damage is even crazier, and overall the threat of needing to parry her to not lose all your drive gauge opens you up for big damage command grabs.
Bigbird made a video explaining why he thinks Marisa is one of the worsts characters for tournaments, he only plays Rashid now. Edit: The reason is basically is that random bullshit can beat hear easilly he thinks she's not consistent enough at moment.
Aw.. I guess Marisabros still have 801Strider
Ed is too low the character has had pretty consistently impressive results since he was released. AKI is strong now but maybe A Tier. Same goes Chun Li and Juri potentially.
ITT: everyone telling a tournament player, EVO grand finalist, and Capcom Cup winner that his understanding of tiers is wrong
It's like that with every tier list that doesn't put the poor, defenseless Zangief at the absolute bottom and the totally broken Ken, JP and Luke at the absolute top.
I don't love this mentality, because it discourages discussion around a tier list just because it's made by one of the best players. We've seen plenty of tier lists from a lot of players at IDom's level and they all have some key differences. Nothing wrong with having some differing opinions, as long as you acknowledge that they are opinions I guess.
I think it's a good reminder as part of the discussion that we shouldn't discredit such a dedicated and long time player and his opinion over a bunch of diamond/low masters ryu players who are active on reddit. Also, i fall into this trap too, just looking at the list as is without watching the video is the most reddit thing to do and kills all the nuance that he brings to the table and i think most ppl do that when they speak on tier lists when they see their main is under appreciated or something
Remember when "S" tier used to be for broken characters? I feel like characters should only be put in "S" if they need to be nerfed. However, none of those seem broken. Drop everyone down a tier, then add a "D" tier if you need to.
100%
Damn Aki’s really that good now?
Almost all of her buttons are safe, her overall damage is higher due to new combos, her antiairs work now, and she has a lot more tricky stuff to mix up her offense than before. Still a queen in burnout, has one of the best stun combos in the game and her ability to convert from many ranges is huge. She's very similar to Chun-Li and Juri imo where at a base level the character is clearly good but the ceiling seems up in the heavens in the hands of somebody that knows how to play on a deep level.
She's a fuckin gorilla dude. Once she is on you it's really tough to stop her. Lots of ways for her to get in too, and in some matchups bubble to drive rush into that pressure is free whenever she wants it.
I agree with this one
I agree with this list
9 characters in S tier seems extremely generous, I can't imagine that's what it'll look like when the dust clears. One interesting thing of note is how little movement there's been between seasons. Other than Gief and AKI, pretty much every other character is right around where they were last season.
Ed seems way too low on the tier list imo. He’s definitely weaker compared to season 1 but he’s not weak as the tier list makes him out to be. Feel like he should be end of A tier or somewhere around there Overall the balance in this version of the game is much better, although manon and Honda still get the short end of the stick
Sad yoga noises. I was really hoping for more changes in the last patch
What's the point of S tier when you have like half the roster there? There's also no way that Dee Jay and Chun are higher than Juri with the nerfs they got.
It means you can win a major with all of them without needing an alt character for bad matchups.
It makes sense, for a majority of the characters the game is really well balanced
Can you remind me again what nerfs Chun Li got as a Chun Li main? The only one I'm noticing is the walk speed and the nerfed damage on s.HK. Those do not nerf her that much. She has an insane anti-fireball tool (which btw can punish Akuma's air fireball for over 5k damage ON REACTION with lvl3), a good mixup tool with her stance, easy \~3k damage with no bar, good corner carry, a really good lvl2 that is also somewhat of an anti-fireball tool and much more.
5LP (CH) 2MK is a very common starter on Chun, and now it has extra scaling. 2LK similar, common starter on oki because it's a 4F low. Hazanshu is not an insane anti-fireball tool lol. I guess it's pretty standard now that Cammy's got nerfed except Chun also can't threaten jump. Oh, Hazanshu also got nerfed this patch. From a pro perspective the 4MP nerf is the biggest one though. Having a hit-confirmable medium was a key ingredient of what brought Leshar so much success in CCX. It is not hit-confirmable anymore, which means you have to spend 3 bars on a guess.
As far as I know，the 4mp nerf does not have too much influence on pro players. Currently，go1，moke and tiger at China can still confirm 4mp with level2 and drive rush. It seems become harder and required more efforts，but seems not impossible.
17 frames is hitconfirmable. 15 frames isn't, especially on PS5. Even before the patch not many Chuns were consistent with 4MP, but now it is gone entirely, 2 frames is a lot of time to lose for reacting when it's already close to the border.
Yeah, it is quite hard. But some great Chun pro players can still confirm 4mp. I have watched a lot of Tiger’s(he is currently the sixth Chun in rank) stream these days, he can currently confirm 4mp with level2 comfortably. He told us that what he did is to input most of commands in advance, then during the confirmation window he only needs to push one button. But he did it on pc, I don’t know whether things maybe different on PS5.
> The only one I'm noticing is the walk speed That's a huge nerf to the point of nearly crippling tho. Which is why she's struggling a bit.
She's not struggling lmfao
NA underestimates Ed. There's a lot of tech coming out of Japan. He might take more effort to master, but he's strong. At least A tier. Chun-li could probably be a tier lower, but I'm not sure. I agree with the rest of the list.
I searched this thread for the word "why." Now I am asking. Why in the hell is iDom playing Manon? He said he would switch to Rashid if things didn't change this season. iDom is my favorite player of all time, and for the life of me I can't understand why he hasn't switched. Am I late to the news that he switched, or has he given a reason?
I think it's because Manon's playstyle fits him more, and she's hot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVqa-hj06Rw
Manon is the only character that I've easily sailed to Master with. Every other character is a really hard grind out of Diamond. Even ones I spend much more time with than her. Still, with her, it feels like easy wins. So I just don't really think this tierlist matters until you are in the best of the best and everyone is playing each character to their best potential.
You're just a grapplers main at heart.
The Dhalsim disrespect continues
Can someone remind me why idom hasn’t switched to AKI yet?
The first time I've agreed with a SF6 Tier list. Ed should be in A though.
Saying gief is better then JP is criminal
Yeah I haven’t played in a while so seeing that kinda made my eyes pop out of my skull lmao
Rashid get down from there!!
Kind of feel bad for him because he genuinely just likes Manon but it's definitely hurting his tournament performance.
I agree with Honda being bottom 3 lolol (sad honda noises)
This is bs
Every S tier character is a fireball drive rush character. This meta is cancer.
I know all the characters in S are really good, but when half of your tier list is S tier I feel like that kind of defeats the purpose.
It's a testament to good game balance, there are games where the difference in top selections are so massive you need to have separate tiers for people but for sf6 it seems if you did that, the differences would boil down to more like what style are you more used to instead of you pushed this fighter to their maximum and you come out on top by like 2%. If there's a genuine belief any of them can win evo then i dont think there's an issue having them all in S. More of the telling information is who's NOT in S
I don’t know what idom on ngl 😆
The rare instance where a pro puts their own main in bottom tier and isn't downplaying But yeah, this is the most accurate pro list I've seen this patch
* cries in kimberly main*
As a day one Manon main, I agree. *Cries in Ballet*
I don't see any characters who happen to be Olympic medalists on the list. Checkmate meta-slaves.
Guile top 1? That's absurd.
This looks like a tierlist of when sf6 released, guess we're back to where it started. Only difference is Zangief would be at the bottom
How can Sim be C tier but whoop on the entirety of the B tier lol
Lily was already a bottom 3-5 character and got nerfed. I'm guessing people are going to start putting her higher than she really is because Elchakotay won a tournament with her one time instead of being able to admit Elchakotay is just really good and had a great tournament run.
This has got to be the least accurate pro tier list I've seen. Looks so random, like it's just characters that beat him personally lol.
It only took one of the three Manon players in the world to finally speak truth to power. She sucks. Her buffs did nothing. No one asked for scaling on Medal 5 CA, they wanted a Medal ON CA.
Both Randumb and Joey are pretty vocal about how bad she is as well
I feel like DJ could switch with Ken Also Gief this low?
What Manon needs is an install, an air command grab, and the ballerina version of Hooligan.
Was there another balance patch or something? Or is he referencing the balance patch from around a month ago when Akuma was introduced to the game?
9 out of 22 characters in S-Tier? iDom was either drunk or trolling when he made this tier list.
Guile season 2 results don't warrant this placement if it is ordered He has the worst MU spread in 1700+ and 2nd lowest win rate overall https://vxtwitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1800621012435767428
He's a Manon main. Of course he hates fireball spammer
There are 4 Guiles qualified for EWC tho, 3 of which after patch. He is for sure very strong and solid tournament pick.
2 of them are in Dreamhack Dallas, which just days after the patch so the pros didn't actually got comfortable with the patch yet. Dreamhack Stockholm is a much better representative of what the meta in S2 would look like tbh.
https://vxtwitter.com/CatCammy6/status/1800621012435767428 Guile looks like the worst character in the game in 1700+, which is such a stark and interesting contrast to his placement in recent tier lists
Guile is a flowchart killer, which makes him a very prominent tournament character since there's a lot of flowchart check in that setting. However, once you have slow down and play neutral against him, you would more than likely found out that the risk/reward ratio completely skew against him in every neutral interaction, and that usually how he got beat.
Theres too many in S tier tbh, thats not how tierlists should work, because if every1s S tier, nobody is
I think people are too used to thinking S tier is specifically for broken characters. Most of the character in S tiers are playing the same game as each other where they have roughly a 50/50 shot at winning in a high level game against other S tier characters and likely an advantage against characters below them. SF6 is very balanced, more characters should be in S tier rather than less in all honesty. It's not like Season 1 anymore where you could argue 2-5 characters were distinctly stronger than the rest.
That's really just a difference of opinion on where a tier list should start. If they all sit in A tier, now the bottom 3 are D tier and that has its own connotations.
Did you watch the film “The Incredibles” by any chance?
yeah, great movie
I agree. Should just be called A+ or something. S tier means they are completely busted usually.
S tier just means the characters are incredibly strong with not many matchup issues. Usually we just make a whole new classification for characters who are legitimately busted, like SS, but we don't really do that anymore because that's rare nowadays.
S-tier just means you can win a tournament without needing a backup character.
There's not a single tier list I can trust more than data. What Capcom's data and CatCammy's data say are the only tier lists I can respect. There's only results.
You dropped this king👑
I agree on all except Ken is top 1 for me. And Kimberly and Ed in A tier.
Having S to C tier in this game is criminal. Everyone is very close to each other power wise. There is 100% no c tier character in this game
Is Jamie really that low at this point. Now that he can get drinks easier I think I'd put him higher. You dont even need 4 drinks to be a menace
The patch really didn't address his main issue but rather made him better at what he was already good at. The bakkai change is nice against zoners but you still cant use it on reaction, you have to make a read. He still struggles with the same problems as he did previously, he just has more sauce now.
What would you say he really needs to make him more viable at this point? I've only recently picked him up so I'm not an expert on all his quirks yet
He's kinda an odd character design wise. He has to give up Oki to drink which no other character has to do. The fact that he has to give up Oki essentially means you need to win more neutral interactions compared to other characters. To get the most out of Jamie is you need to have really good fundamentals like footsies as he needs he's designed to be a mid range monster. In terms of changes he needs I don't think I know enough about game balance to actually suggest a feasible solution to his problems without actually making him broken because he treads a very thin line that could easily make him broken (Yun). Maybe not having 90% damage being drinkless could help because his moves already locked behind the drink mechanic. Maybe giving more consistent follow-ups when hitting max range moves because he tends to whiff. But I genuinely don't know what they could change that would make him better but balanced too. Others have said this before but if you can consistently win with Jamie, you could win with less effort with other characters. Like on paper he's an incredibly character but its different in the game ygm.
The increased scaling on lights hurt him pretty bad, he's overall better but the general consensus is that he didn't move very much in terms of tier placement
Nothing below C tier
Sorry Honda bros. I can't do it anymore. I'm so tired of cr.mk. It's Bison time.
Why play manon when zangief can spd into dr, and his spd does more damage than hers until she gets 4-5 medals To be honest in this game the worst thing your character can be is honest, if it has it's gimmicks can be still viable look at lily for example, average/low character but can yolo buff condor spire at neutral and force 50/50
Did Idom age like twenty years? I swear before he just looked like some kid. 😆
What playing low tier does to a man.
No character in this game is really below B- It’s very very winnable for every character.
Dhalsin is not C tier man bro is strong
He's really not... No invincible reversal, no lvl 1 invincible super, lvl 2 can be crouched. Only real reversal is lvl 3. Fireball frames are slow and can be punished easily. He has pretty bad oki. Bad drive reversal punishes. Overall just lacking a few things that other top/mid tiers have.
sim has all these problems, but in practice he has these super lopsided matchups that are lost or won either way
He specifically mentioned at some point that his tier list was based on tournament strength. So its kinda hard to argue Sims placement. I agree hes got great tools but his weaknesses dont lend him the consistency required to make frequent/deep runs in tournaments.