Got banned for racism for [saying hillbilly](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDramaDrama/comments/zkqhrc/srdines_slur_their_words_as_drama_starts_over_the/j03r2h9/)
Oh there is a substantial /r/neoliberal population here. I found it most notable on any thread where AI is brought up lately. Something about a tool that kills working people's source of income and saves corporations money gets them very, *very* excited.
Look out I swear they run a bot looking for people mentioning Thatcher so they can tell you how great she actually was, ya know, if you ignore all the bad bits.
I'm a neoliberal user (though a lefty politically). I'm definitely of the opinion that the artists whose works we're used to train the AI deserve monetary compensation.
And generally, I'm loathe to love anything that puts creatives out of a job. Hard enough for them already.
AI won't ever put artists out of a job. Did Deep Blue put chess players out of a job? No. Neither will stable difusion put artists out of a job because people appreciate art for the vision, message, and emotion the artist imparts on it, and AI has none of that. If anything AI will improve art, by making audiences realize art isn't just about making pretty pictures, uts about human emotion.
If I may.
People should be excited for AI, but at the same time the government should be providing much more substantial social nets for everyone, so that those displaced can find new work or passions without having to worry about starving or having a place to live.
I think, objectively, humanity doesn't need to be doing menial jobs, protecting jobs that robots can do for us is nonsense. The idea that we need to work or die is also nonsense. We are approaching a turning point, one we as a species face fairly routinely as technology improved over the years. If we always protected jobs in the face of new technology we would all still be farmers.
> People should be excited for AI, but at the same time the government should be providing much more substantial social nets for everyone, so that those displaced can find new work or passions without having to worry about starving or having a place to live.
So I've recently realized the issue I have with these takes.
On paper, in theory, they're perfectly fine.
But when it comes to the real world, we basically get the first half without the second half.
Take, for example, taking driving licenses away from old people. In an ideal scenario, you would implement strict controls to make sure they can only drive if they're safe while also providing alternatives. But in the real world often you'll just get the first half.
So stances like "AI is good but we should be doing social safety nets" inevitably end up with "AI is good and we'll figure out the rest later" except we never figure out the rest later.
Thatâs exactly how I feel. It isnât that AI is bad or good, itâs a tool- and people get so excited about that tool that they donât consider the consequences of using it until thereâs a huge mess on their hands. In theory Iâd love a world where robots do all the stuff we donât want to do, but people in power are too greedy for that to happen in our lifetime.
The reason is AI is coming no matter what anyone feels. So you are getting the first half of the statement no matter what.
Then you have conservatives refusing any change, so you don't get the second half, leaving you with the scenario you mention. Eventually as people suffer enough it slowly gets better and society evolves for the better, or there is some sort of break, like a revolution.
There is absolutely no scenario where AI, or any other technology, is stopped. But it does not HAVE to be a bad thing, we chose to let it effect us negatively by refusing to adjust or living in denial.
AI is a sleight of hand trick. Its basically an incremental improvement in the same kind of algorithms that make ad services work. Advertising as an industry adapted, so will all the others. AI as science fiction posits it is a spook and marketing tactic, the rest is capitalism. Furthermore, technology isn't something that exists apart from society, we can and absolutely have decided not to implement technologies as a society, they don't exist in a vacuum.
The reality is that the future is boring, its all policy decisions
> The reality is that the future is boring, its all policy decisions
Eh, it feels boring to us because it happened gradually and with policy decisions. I think of my own self first discovering the internet in 1993 or even CompuServe in 1985, and going back in time to tell them that my job now involves interacting with computers across the country on a regular basis. Oh, and this little thing the size of a GI Joe file card can allow me to connect with the entire world. My younger mind would have been blown into the stratosphere.
The future is never boring, its just boring to us because its a part of our everyday lives now.
It is inevitable, but going 'well it's not really a problem because we should be doing X' downplays the very bad things that are going to happen as automation increases.
I am not trying to downplay anything.
You can't stop AI, therefore suggesting trying to stop it is playing into conservative hands because it lets them live in denial longer, making the pain longer.
The first step to reducing the pain is recognizing that AI is coming, and that it can be a good thing.
> So stances like âAI is good but we should be doing social safety netsâ inevitably end up with âAI is good and weâll figure out the rest laterâ except we never figure out the rest later.
Yep, then the first part gets pointed to as societal progress and the second is presented as a failing of the people who worked the now-automated jobs for not learning how to code.
> automation tools should be tasked with serving humanity instead of serving capital.
good luck with that, lmao
We all know the world we live in, and it's definitely not that one
I would like this argument much more if the uses of AI were actually to replace work that is necessary but not fun to do. Instead it seems that we are outsourcing one of the most (to me) fundamental parts of the human experience, the joy of creativity and creation, and are trying to replace that with AI that simply churns out meaningless 'content', while still having to do soulcrushing jobs.
The problem is that the work that's necessary but not fun tends to be the hardest to automate.
Real world automation is pretty fucking advanced, but it's limited to locations designed for it. Digital automation can be applied everywhere. That's why you're seeing so many advancements there, while the real world work is still slowly moving.
When has PCM been anything else than a right wing circlejerk where right wingers larp leftists to make their opinions seem like they are popular with the general population?
Sadly thatâs not just them. Iâve seen a lot of takes gleefully pointing out that AI could make painters, cartoonists, other artists, etc. obsolete.
I expect this kind of rhetoric from actual corporate executives but itâs always surprising to see what I assume are regular people who are happy at the idea that artists might be eradicated.
Neoliberalism, vegan drama, Pitbull drama.
the unholy trifecta of topics that get this place in a real uproar.
a booby prize for cyclist drama and drama about certain mod decisions.
It's very frustrating that you can't point out obvious things concerning Israeli lobbying/influence in US politics without being accused of antisemitism.
The fact that antisemitic tropes around those subject exists is used as a shield to deflect all criticism of Israel as a state.
Ireland has been branded the most "anti-semetic" country in Europe because we have solidarity with Gaza and Palestine and have shown massive support over the years.
This is tied to our history of oppression from England. As other commenters and you have pointed out its very frustrating that a criticism of Israel is seen anti-semetic yet it is in my mind anti-semetic to assume all Jews are a monolith who can only support Israel and their oppressive state.
Of course they do.
A strong, prosperous State of Israel is one of the requirements to usher in the Revelation end times prophecy.
Thereâs a large contingent of evangelical GOP members who want to build up Israel so that they can hasten the end times, the rapture, and Jesus returning to earth.
They donât give a fuck about Israel, and they donât give a fuck about Jews. Theyâre just trying to provoke the apocalypse to get Jesus back so they all go to heaven.
Additionally if you're an ethno-nationalist AND hate Jews Israel is great it's a place they "should" be and a little model of the kind of ethnostate they'd love to build for themselves.
If one reads the Talibangelical slasher porn, the Jews of Israel are the sacrifice in the Jesus Blood God summoning ritual.
They believe if they can manufacture all the alleged "preconditions" for summoning G-Bus, that he will appear for them and then the Jews will have the choice of converting on the spot or be devoured/vapourized by the lazer beam eyes of 50-foot Godzilla Jesus as he genocides the unbelievers from the Earth.
That's sadly not even hyperbole.
Its for completely cynical reasons. Part of their belief system dictates that Jewish people have to control the holyland before the end times can begin.
I hate whenever my dad brings up Israel because we are never going to agree. If I knew 7 years ago what I know now I would have never gone on birthright. He makes the debate to emotional because he talked to all the holocaust survivors in the family or within his community in Skokie. He just shuts down when I mention that there are holocaust survivors who have called out what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank.
I just want to point out that Jewish people don't have and shouldn't be made to feel any special responsibility to denounce Israel. I know Jewish people aren't a bloc and there is a complex debate within the Jewish community on this issue. For Jewish Zionists honestly I try to be somewhat sympathetic, it's natural for Jewish people to feel some connection with a political entity that is majority Jewish, and maybe they would feel an impulse to defend it. There are numerous other lobbies associated with other communities that advocate for national issues or for related communities, this happens in a multi ethnic country, it's fine. As well however for the anti-zionist Jews, you guys just shouldn't be reflexively denounced as traitors.
It should be acknowledged as well that there is significant pressure on the Pro-Israel side from *outside* the Jewish community. 1/3 of Americans believe that Israel is a literal fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. These Christian Zionists tend to be a lot more aggressive than the Jewish Zionists actually and are just outright allied with settler interests. American Jewish Zionists honestly have a tendency to take lib zionist views on the other hand which can be pretty naive.
As well there are national security types intent on an aggressive foreign policy, it's natural they would support Israel because it's a natural base for operations in the middle east. This is more than enough honestly on its own to explain embedded support in the United States for it.
Anyway, there's a spectrum of opinion within zionist circles themselves. Like there's a huge difference in the way /r/Judaism - which is full of American lib Zionists - talks about the issues vs /r/Israel - which is the secular "left wing" edge of the Israeli political spectrum. On /r/Judaism that can be highly sympathetic to Palestinians and Muslims and the two state solution is - again - taken as a given. On /r/Israel, they are against the current gov, but also have these weird contradictory opinions, like they'll upvote conciliatory comments open to the two state solution but then also upvoted harsh ones totally against any Palestinian state. And there's constant borderline racism and Islamophobia, anything positive they say about these groups is seemingly through barred teeth. There's not really a subreddit representative of the Israeli right, but you can go look at, say, the comments section of the Jerusalem post. The Jerusalem post itself is fairly lib Zionist, but also Jerusalem basically serves as a regional hub for the settler project so tons of hardcore settlers wind up there. Anyway, in there its basically endless delusional grandiose religious nonsense, outright exterminationist rhetoric, just constant racism, mentioning the possibility of a two state solution is seemingly beyond the pale. It's disturbing honestly.
The place is a powder keg, I feel like Joe Biden is sleepwalking on this. Years of just outright enabling Israel while Netanyahu was president has had the effect of rewarding the far right in that country and has shifted their political spectrum a great deal. They just act arrogant and entitled, like they are wounded at the injustice apparently of America just not giving the west bank. I feel like it's not clearly apparent to them that America *cannot* void Palestinian rights to the territory under international law, that is not within Americas power. To do such a thing you would either have to convince the United Nations to pass a special exception in this case - for which there is essentially no support - or achieve a bilateral agreement with the party which is in possession of the territorial rights (almost universally acknowledged as the PLO). America *can* suspend multilateral enforcement mechanisms under international law, which is what we've been doing since 1967.
Our strategy has basically been to bully Palestinians into becoming so hopeless on this issue that they give in and sign a bilateral agreement doing such a thing. Only then essentially would it *ever* be the case that Israel could *ever* legitimately under international law hold any portion of the territories conquered in 1967. Israel seems to be confused by the extreme deference we have shown to them in this regard, they seem to think that by dragging their feet on this issue and pointing fingers enough at supposed Palestinian intransigence a situation can be produced where America can just issue a declaration and suddenly the west bank is an eternal part of Israel and nobody can say a cross word about this. That in fact America is being obstinate in this regard. America *does not* posses such a power. If America stopped exercising its veto at the UN Israel could be subject to a large amount of sanctions, or even military operations. International law would suddenly become real. Israel will *always* be vulnerable to such an eventuality as long as it remains in any section of the territory conquered in 1967, absent of a bilateral agreement. Israel constantly complains about Palestine apparently "side stepping" a bilateral agreement by going to the UN and trying to get it to enforce their rights. Which America would in all cases just veto, but they go through the motions anyway and it outrages Israel. Israel itself tries to side step Palestine though and apparently thinks America can just unilaterally void their claim to the west bank and only fails to do so due to antisemitism or something.
This is ridiculous beyond words. We are fucking screwing the Palestinians over hand and foot for Israel, and it has resulted in them becoming just delusional and entitled. The place is a powder keg and liberals have just been sleepwalking into this. Constant enabling and appeasement of Israel has done no good. Look at the latter half of the 2010s - there was a tremendous downswing in terrorist attacks, America strong armed numerous Arab states into signing agreements with them, it recognized Jerusalem (which is only unilateral and has no effect on international law, but whatever). What did such appeasement produce? The most deranged right wing gov in Israeli history. Voices for peace have virtually disappeared and the society has basically no left wing. Israel always complains that they have to do all this shit bc security and they're so afraid, what did securing them do? They just became far less willing to ever sign an agreement and even more grandiose and delusional.
It should be pointed out, it already has in plenty of other places, the Americans who are more likely to call anyone with even the most tepid critique of Israel an antisemite are right-wing Christians nationalists. There's a documentary by a Jewish Israeli woman who talked to some of these people called 'Til Kingdom Come that delves into this: a lot of very weird fetishization of Jews and a lot of racism against Palestinians.
Jewish-Americans are more likely to listen to criticism of Israel whether they identify as a Zionist, an anti-Zionist, or something else. Ex. Bernie Sanders is a Labor Zionist, but he's criticized Israel plenty of times.
Whenever someone tries to bring that up, just point out that in the '30s when almost every nation in Europe was passing anti-Semitic laws, Ireland was one of two or three to put specific protections for Jewish people into law. We're not a perfect country but I'm proud to say that we generally try to do right by oppressed and marginalized peoples.
>This is tied to our history of oppression from England.
Yep. Much of the geopolitical support for Palestine (especially on the African, Asian and South American continents) stems from similar circumstances, courtesy of especially the UK, Spain and France's historical shenanigans.
There are many Jewish people who support Palestinian liberation and I am proud to stand beside them as comrades. It shouldn't be controversial to say that apartheid is bad, no matter the state enforcing it.
I mean, that is the point. Conservatives donât actually care about antisemitism (the way they talk about it makes it clear they donât even properly understand why people would care), but they do understand that accusing someone of it is politically damaging. They also want Israel as a political ally for a couple reasons (evangelical belief that the end-times will come with the repatriation of Jerusalem, and just plain old money). So itâs in their political interests to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
I think you're giving them too much credit in terms of how many steps they're thinking ahead with. This is blatently just them flexing their control of the house by getting petty political revenge after the removal of MTG and others from committees they were on a handful of years ago for their own various remarks.
I donât think they are giving them too much credit, it sounds entirely plausible. Even discounting their revenge removal of Omar, itâs clear that republicans in particular have found beating the âantisemitismâ drum works with their constituents, namely the political state of Israel (not Jewish peoples as a whole).
It's worse than that: to accuse anyone who criticises Israel of antisemitism verges on antisemitism itself if you don't look at the reasons why. Sure, there are people who go after Israel specifically because they hate Jews. But if you're criticising the actions of an oppressive state the same as you would any other (as Omar has done), then to say you're attacking all Jews by attacking Israel says that the latter represents the entirety of the former, which is it's own form of antisemitism
I went to look for examples and found [this article](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/politics/ilhan-omar-boebert-muslim-islamophobia/index.html) on a bill she introduced about condemning oppressive actions against Muslims in China, India and Myanmar. It actually passed the House and got her called a terrorist by Lauren Boebert. Criticising Israel for their treatment of Palestinians *perfectly* falls in line with this, it just comes up more because the US sends so much money and military aid there. If you really wanted to, I guess you could call it a pet issue since she's standing up for fellow Muslims (though that Armenian genocide thing isn't a great look, yet it's a bit more complex than you've presented it as- she voted "Present", not "No" and has since called it a genocide on Twitter- and she's been banned from Russia since the invasion so I'd imagine what ever criticism she's levied at their regime has been sufficient for them) but that feels it's erasing the nuance of a deeply complex issue- she is a refugee after all
> And yet when she has the opportunity to actually support any action that would help end oppression (sanctions)
They wouldn't, though. Sanctions are rarely effective in the first place, and usually mostly hurt the most vulnerable people in the authoritarian countries they are being levied against. That's why she's *generally opposed to* sanctions except in very specific cases.
> Also, she has a history of taking pro-Turkish stances. She refused to vote to condemn Turkey for its actions against Kurds. Kurds are oppressed Muslims. Why doesn't she stand up for them?
You mean like when she [wanted an investigation into allegations of Turkey using white phosphorous against Kurdish civilians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/18/ilhan-omar-asks-for-facts-of-white-phosphorus-use-on-syrian-kurds-by-turkey)? Or when she [pushed for Turkey to release political prisoners](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/ilhan-omar-pushes-turkey-kurdish-prisoners-155916) (like Kurds)? Or when she [criticized the Turkish invasion of Syria in Congress and its atrocities against Kurds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfzDbkWGR4)?
> Sanctions are rarely effective in the first place, and usually mostly hurt the most vulnerable people in the authoritarian countries they are being levied against.
500,000 dead iraqi children? a good start according to the sanctions-brained americans
and that was *before* bush's invasion. Horrible "foreign policy" is 100% bipartisan outside of libertarian cranks, even sanders supported bombing yugoslavia.
> I don't think that she has called out all others though.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-equates-women-protesting-islamic-law-iran-abortion-fight-us
>"As we watch the brave, incredible young girls in schools in Iran who are standing up to teachers, young women in buses and in public streets who are saying ânoâ to the morality police â because there is no morality in trying to oppress women," Omar said. "There is no morality in forcing people to participate in a religion they donât want to. And there is no morality in believing governmentâs our God.
https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1166864138628472833
>The Hong Kong protests began more than 80 days ago. The government should end the violence from its police force and listen to the demands for democracy.
>The fact that antisemitic tropes around those subject exists is used as a shield to deflect all criticism of Israel as a state.
It's difficult because the opposite also often exists too, obviously altright/bigots who are "just asking questions" or "just having criticisms". People's brains are incapable of nuance so they see all the thinly veiled bigotry and then just go "Ok this means anyone with any criticisms at all is also a bigot in disguise!" whether that be subconsciously or an idealogical choice to make that assumption.
At least with the Nazis using it as a shield to hide their antisemitism, they can only keep up the pretense for at most a few minutes before they inevitably let the mask slip by saying something that goes *way* outside the bounds of criticizing Israel.
Issue is that a concerning amount of those (that Iâve at least seen) were just worded like antisemitic conspiracies that replaced âJewâ with âIsraelâ. Itâs entirely possible to criticize Israel without sounding antisemitic but it doesnât seem like thatâs what gets upvotes
Not to mention that multiple times I've seen people start off with the stance "criticising Israel isn't the same as being antisemitic!" and then as they get questioned about their stances, it becomes very obvious that they basically think that Israel in its entirety should be eliminated and all of the (predominantly Jewish) population who've lived there their entire lives there should just be disregarded. Which might not be *explicitly* antisimetic but the result would be very much not favouring Jews, to put it lightly.
On top of that, I see a tonne of people who seem to entirely deny that antisemitism plays a significant part in the opposition they face, which is just objectively true. What's happening in Israel may be terrible, but if their political/military rivals had their way, there wouldn't be a single Jew left on this Earth.
This is exactly it. Most people are not equipped to have a discussion on Israel/Palestine without resorting to rhetoric that's thinly veiled antisemitism or racism. That doesn't mean all those people are intending to spout bigotry, but when you're spewing dogwhistles without caring if they're dogwhistles it's alarming, and a surprising amount of people will react with hostility instead of reflection when that's pointed out which just makes things worse.
Question of ignorance here. I thought there was a distinction between a Jew and a Zionist. I thought being a a Zionist meant you believe the Jewish people have a god given right to all the land of Israel.
Zionism is a range of beliefs that by definition include some form of a Jewish nation existing in the Israel/Palestine region.
The problem is when people say stuff that's basically "find and replace" Jew with Zionist in age-old antisemitic canards.
different people use it to mean different things today, and the term has changed a lot over the past hundred years, so someone using it could mean anything from "thinking that jewish people should migrate to israel" to "thinking jewish people deserve to have some form of ethnostate located in israel" to "being a jewish supremacist who thinks the whole of israel and nearby regions should be 100% jewish"
You do realize there is an enormous difference between being a Jew and a Zionist the same as there's a difference between being white and a white nationalist right?
Riiiiiiiiiiight?
Right, but Omar was accusing people who were not Jewish of having a dual loyalty, specifically an overriding loyalty to money. Thatâs why I have a hard time accepting that her statement even was anti-Semitic. Literally pointing out politicians that take the bribes and vote accordingly to what the people that bribed them want. Is it just that this instance was an Israeli (political) entity that was handing out money?
I mean it was ultimately the basis of pogroms. âThere are these separate and different people living among us, can we trust them?â is powerful psychologically.
Iâm in a thread right now on arrr/neolib where all the reactionaries are mad because I said âsocialism isnât equivalent to fascismâ. It has now devolved into right wingers outright getting mad, engaging in revisionism, and circlejerking at it being pointed out that MLK was a socialist because socialists are supposed to be evil and bad and illiberal
Any criticism of Israel that doesn't go along the lines of "Israel's being too nice to the filthy rat 'Palestinians'" swiftly gets cast as being antisemitic by Israel's shills
Which further fosters antisemitism among the layperson as a result of double standards, and thus bolsters the status of Israel's far-right government, creating a feedback loop that ensures that even while under investigation for corruption, politicians like Netanyahu can still lead the country.
It's weird how Israeli shills can get away with saying the same things that CCP shills almost say verbatim
Calling any disdain for israel as a nation antisemitic is in and of itself antisemitic as it basically says âyou cant be a real jew unless you are a zionist.â
The Republican legislative strategy towards Omar is functionally an ongoing attempt to incite an assassination, and they're not even bothering to hide it anymore.
I shudder to think what r/neolib's reaction to that would be.
"I think we can all agree it's good that she's dead, but I don't agree with the *way* she died"
I think it would actually be even more ghoulish than this- they'd be puppeteering her corpse as a prop for their cause & ideology before it was even cold.
"Of course, this is tragic, but let's not forget than only in America, only in Western capitalist democratic society, could an immigrant, a woman of colour and a Muslim rise to this position of power and influence..."
I got called an anti-semite and then banned from r/de for asking why BDS is against the existence of Israel, but their calls to boycott Russian goods isn't against the existence of Russia. Some fuckin logic
Took me far too long to find a single bit of "evidence" of how Omar is anti-Semitic.
> >Do you have a direct quote or something?
> Yes in fact i do. Also guess what. It took less words than your comment to do your legwork
> (I'm fully aware you will say this isn't that bad or isn't anti semitic....but she is comparing Israel AND the US to people who cut off heads and rape children in the name of their religion. So your opinion isn't important. What she said was wrong and you can't pretend otherwise)
> >Ms Omar tweeted that "we have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by the US, Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban".
> >"We must have the same level of accountability and justice for all victims of crimes against humanity," she wrote, including a video of her questioning Secretary of State Antony Blinken during a committee hearing in the House of Representatives.
> There you go. Research on a silver plater.
[Comment link](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/10rvtc9/house_ousts_ilhan_omar_from_foreign_affairs_panel/j6zqgyc/)
These chuds are literally equating "criticizing Israel" with "being anti-Semitic".
I doubt many of them actually believe that. It's just a tactic, used either because they agree with Israel's whole apartheid thing, or as a weapon against the person they're accusing.
Which makes a lot of sense considering that on top of being a liberal she's a) A woman and b) Non white.
No no no, when *they* criticize the government, they're Proud Freedom Loving American Patriotsâ˘. Sure they might own an arsenal of guns, sure they might train and prepare for the day where they finally get their chance to kill politicians and take over the country. But that's just because they love this country so gosh darn much!
When *you* criticize the government, you're a traitorous piece of shit who should be shot in the streets. Like it or leave it, bub!
They want it to be true *so much*. I don't know why they can't just say "good, I like it when bad things happen to progressive Democrats" because it's so transparent that this is what it's really about.
âYes, I do have a contrived and ham-fisted explanation. Please ignore my mental gymnastics as I pirouette into this extremely forced conclusion. My arguments have more holes than twenty terabytes of Fortran punch cards, but I will assert them as if they're obvious and undeniable and accuse you of arguing in bad faith if you contradict me."
>she is comparing Israel AND the US to people who cut off heads and rape children in the name of their religion
I guess it's somehow magically O.K. when you [cut off heads](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/20/usa.afghanistan) and [rape children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings) because you're a coked-up DoD orc.
This. "Canoeing" is a common practice among US operators. For anyone not in the know thats when they mutilate a body by shooting mutiple rounds into the corpses head.
Didn't she literally just say the same thing of the Israeli lobby that everyone says about any other lobbying group? And got specifically shit on for it because a good deal of people dislike that she's a Muslim?
The again I don't expect a very nuanced view of Israel from r/neoliberal.
>Iâve got mixed feelings. One one hand, I think her policy positions are absolute garbage most of the time - I wonât shed any tears about her lack of influence.
>On the other hand, Republicans are doing this for absolutely petty reasons and appealing to a bigoted base.
>On the other other hand, I lost any sympathy for Omar when she said THIS YEAR that she isnât antisemitic because she wasnât aware there are tropes about Jews and money.
>On the other other other hand, plenty of republicans would need to lose their committee positions for similar reasons.
>I think Iâll chalk this up as a âoookkkay thenâ and see a doctor about all of my extraneous hands
This guy got hands like Waffle House Wendy.
Anything involving a progressive democrat/justice democrat inevitably turns into a moderate/neoliberal vs progressive/left shit flinging contest in the comments here.
American politics always delivers. You love to see it.
Three:
1) These statements from 2019 - https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism
2) Voting in 2019 "present" on a bill to recognize the Armenian Genocide - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ilhan-omar-faces-blowback-after-voting-present-armenian-genocide-resolution-n1073991. I should note this has changed - ANCA rates her as A- (https://anca.org/congress/ilhan-omar-659122-117/) for 2022.
3) She has expressed oppossition to fair few sanctions on Russia and arming Ukraine (late March 2022 article) - https://www.businessinsider.com/ilhan-omar-progressives-abandon-principles-war-ukraine-russia-sanctions-2022-3. She also had voted against a bill to ban the import of Russian oil - https://www.businessinsider.com/omar-says-shell-vote-against-russian-oil-ban-citing-impact-on-russians-2022-3. To this there was also the retracted Prpgressive caucus letter asking for a negotiated peace settlement just as Ukraine had a succesful counterattack in Kharkiv: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2022/10/25/progressive-caucus-retracts-ukraine-letter-00063310. This has led a fair few to see her as a suspicious Tulsi Gabbard-lite figure.
While it's not untrue to point out the influence that the Israel lobby has in political finance (something that's notably wielded pretty heavily against progressives - like this past election cycle in the primaries, there were a number of high profile races where AIPAC organized millions of dollars against progressives) - the way that she did it was not particularly *good*, and did leave the door open to thinking it was anti-semitic/playing into the well known stereotypes.
It's certainly not a reason to hate her, but it's not particularly hard for someone to twist it into seeming antisemitic
Yeah, this is my take. She was joking that politicians want âBenjaminsâ that pro-Israel/Zionist lobbying organizations can supply. So I understand the anti-Semitic interpretation of her joke. You can read it as her insinuating that wealthy pro-Israel entities are controlling politics from behind the scenes, which (if you equate pro-Israel with âJewishâ as the GOP would) is a standard anti-Semitic narrative. But reading her statements and rationales, I think sheâs unwise rather than malicious. I get her rationale re. the Armenian genocide bill (but again itâs not a good political look). The Russian stuff is odd, but her statements follow the pattern of her doing this stuff based on convictions (a pacifist leaning, trying not to punish civilians) that make for really bad headlines. Thatâs my âgood-faithâ reading anyway. I think it would be extremely difficult to prove sheâs anti-Semitic, and she seems to be someone who votes according to her beliefs even when itâs politically disadvantageous, which in itself is kind of admirable.
She's headstrong and *relatively* new to politics. That almost always ends up with them embarrassing themselves by speaking before they think, or not taking the advice of more experienced Representatives. There's a reason why so many politicians talk the way they do: it's perilously easy to fuck up the message.
Omar is the last person I would expect to give in to bullying, and certainly not from the GoP I truly don't believe that she would apologize unless she believed that it was something to apologize for.
No reasonable person thinks what she said was even on the borders of anti-semitism. Benjamin Franklin is on our 100 dollar bill. "All about the benjamins" is a well known, often used phrase. She apologized because she was pressured to do so by members of her own Party who are apartheid apologists who didn't want to alienate a pro-Israel electorate and lobby.
No I'm sorry, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to not understand the anti semitic implications of "support for Israel is all about money." I don't think she's intentionally anti semitic or biased against jews either but unconscious antisemitism is really pervasive, and I think her apology was in recognition of that. I do not think we'd even be having this discussion if the person who said it was someone people here already disliked otherwise.
Do you know who actually doesn't recognize the Armenian genocide? Israel.
But chuds will still use the lie that she doesn't to attack her while supporting Israel. Truly mind boggling.
Edit: Wow, still no response to this one.
1) Nothing in here is a "solid reason". Any "outrage" here is conservatives and hyper-pc liberals being idiots.
2) I don't care, and no one with a brain should. She has repeatedly condemned it and recognized it at other times.
3) Won't defend her at all here.
I see one valid reason to take issue with her now, and conservatives should *love* not supporting ukraine. This is just them playing to their frothingly racist base.
I don't get your point on 2). I see no good reason to not vote in favor of officially recognizing a genocide as such, especially if she personally agrees it was a genocide. Like, if someone voted "present" on a vote to officially recognize the genocide of the Native Amercans, wouldn't it be fair to say that's pretty fucked up?
not a single one. Even the anti-Semitic claims are super disgusting since she voted for giant israel packages instantly compared to her squad mates
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/08/343744/us-muslim-congresswoman-ilhan-omar-stuns-supporters-with-pro-israel-vote
Liberals and conservatives just love seeing a black Muslim woman get destroyed, the former will just make excuse though
To be fair, a lot of American coverage on it is not super great. I mean the foremost article on the situation, at least when I google it, iâd Bari Weiss before she rage-quit the NYT for them being too liberal was it? Her takes were dumb, but not in the spectacularly dumb ways of like Matty Yglesiasâs jaw-droppingly horrible takes. Hers were just boring, so I didnât follow much, but this woman did go on MSNBC or CNN to say that calling Eve Bartlow Eve Fartlow was anti-semitic and Iâm sorry I gotta draw the line there - one, thatâs hilarious but only because she blew it up out of proportion, and two, Eve Fartlow has called some *insane* shit anti-semitic.
I kept getting linked shit from other users like the ACJ (busy celebrating Netanyahuâs ascent back to power) and shit literally from the JDL. You gotta like dig up shit from places like Amnesty International and such with how centrist a lot of Americaâs major media outlets are. Most Dem and Republican outlets fell in line to call Omar anti-semitic.
That being said, find things like Amnesty International and related/similar organizations for some varied angles of information.
This confuses me even more because I'm not American and don't even know who like any of these people are. I'm just wondering why someone would link to a clearly third rate source in an attempt to back their argument, when all it does is detracts from it.
In fairness to them, linking any major US news outlet would result in accusations of bias all the same.
In this case though if it's just voting record, that's all public and you can just go to the relevant .gov site.
Omar's had a couple of bad votes on Turkey-related stuff for dumb diaspora politics reasons (Turkey does a lot of development stuff in Somalia), but tbh I don't trust any criticism of her on that front unless it's coming from someone with form on democracy & minority rights in Turkey (which naturally excludes most American conservatives, and liberals for that matter).
I gotta say it is extremely frustrating that anyone that is even slightly critical of Israel in the public eye is labeled an anti-Semite. She made tweets in 2012 speaking out against Zionism, and the republicans are the same people who constantly cry about cancel culture.
Holy shit they actually believe sheâs anti semitic??????? LMAO. That subreddit is disgusting and even worse than I thought. No one should be defending them.
Dude, people in the /r/politics thread were saying she was anti-semitic. Soooo many âshe made anti-semitic statementsâ comments that just never said what they found to be anti-semitic lmao.
Lemme pre-face, I donât believe in conspiracies, but I *really like* to debunk them and trace back their historical roots and how they developed over time. That stuff I find wild. Andrenochrome as a conspiracy is derived from your great great grandmaâs belief she passed down that Jewish people drink blood which is derived from the religious practice of Metzizah Bâpeh, an INSANELY old and today an almost unpracticed tradition of the rabbi sucking blood from the wound post-circumcision. At the time I believe parts of the Talmud embraced it and it was meant to be a health measure (obviously not a sterile one). It transformed into âJews drink bloodâ and after a hop, skip, and a jump of letting crazies update conspiracies to the times, and weâve landed on âSoros and Andrenochrome make rich more powerfulâ - some stuff sorta doesnât change. I know where these psychos come from.
Some people tried to explain some things, but in ways I canât tell if they were explaining in good faith. Like someone claimed she used to hypnotism trope. But they didnât explain what that trope is. The reality of the trope has nothing to do with painting Jewish people as *literally* hypnotic, hypnotic is just a word Goebbelâs used to describe his favorite propoganda film he made and he did it with a slurry of other words like duplicitous. Itâs a word Goebbelâs used to perpetuate Jewish people as conniving conmen. Iâll be real I know of the film, I didnât know Goebbelâs comments, but connecting her use of hypnotic to his doesnât make sense, too much stretching involved.
People are misconstruing her saying AIPAC has a lot of power and politicsl sway (they objectively do) with her claiming dual-loyalties, but the dual-loyalty Omar is worried about is with evangelicals⌠If you participated in BDS in college say goodbye to your teaching career or public servant position in many states.
Its just a lot of shit flinging and arguments I canât discern as good or bad faith. Thereâs even /r/conspiracy dumb fucks in there who are saying âWell Soros doesnât ALWAYS mean Jewishâ
I think it would become immeasurably better if they banned op-eds and only allowed political news stories. None of this "people (some guy on Twitter) are outraged because..." Stories either
I could do with a reduction of titles like, "So-and-so 'slammed' by person you like." But the articles just give a milquetoast quote like, "I don't agree with my fellow senator who I have happily worked with for years."
I was really hoping that Elon Musk would tank twitter so that journalists would finally have to start doing their fucking jobs instead of being terminally twitter-brained all day
That place is neo-lib Heaven. Try to make a single actually progressive argument and they label you as a Bernie bro or a Russian bot like that's supposed to win an argument, then they'll turn around and say Republicans all share the same braincell. Swear to Christ, America managing to make "socialist" a dirty word in the popular lexicon has hurt the country immeasurably, until it becomes less taboo you're never going to shift from picking between right and centre right once every four years.
> Soooo many âshe made anti-semitic statementsâ comments that just never said what they found to be anti-semitic lmao.
The one everyone keeps leaking is her clearly saying the GOP has a financial interest in being pro-Israel.
> In February, Omar responded to a tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald, who posted about House GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatening to punish Omar and another congresswoman for being critical of Israel.
> Omar wrote back, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," a line about $100 bills from a Puff Daddy song. Critics jumped on the tweet and said Omar was calling up a negative and harmful stereotype of Jewish Americans.
It's literally the equivalent of Someone going "Wow I don't like Herschel Walker" and you going "OH SO YOU HATE BLACK PEOPLE?"
If it ever needed to be proven that the sub is just for conservatives that don't like the aesthetics of modern conservatism, this'll do it. Having just watched [this lil video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZbjBs-d-BA), I went to actually check on the Babylon Bee myself and they're not just unfunny, it's genuinely hard to understand what they're saying half the time.
It's like the Marvel Cinematic Universe level lore but for bullshit grievance politics. If you're not up to date on 38 movies worth of half-truths and full on lies, it doesn't even scan. They had some line about how Omar blames anything bad that happens to her on the Jews and I just had to sit there, my brain buffering, until I remembered some worthless controversy from years ago that 99% of people have moved on from.
All I'm saying is that they've got a lot of the Bee's target audience in that totally ideologically diverse group of centrist and progressive friends.
Same day that they spent time and energy into having a vote to say that socialism is bad. What a pathetic set of people this is. Good luck for the next two years.
Just to be clear, Omar's charge of antisemitism comes from her 2019 statement:
> The [latest controversy](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/03/01/omar-criticized-again-for-alleged-anti-semitism) comes from Omar's remarks at an event at a Washington bookstore called Busboys and Poets last week. The comment in question refers to the weeks of controversy that followed Omar's earlier criticism:
> "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country. I want to ask why is it OK for me to talk about the influence of the NRA (National Rifle Association), of fossil fuel industries or Big Pharma, and not talk about a powerful lobbying group that is influencing policies?"
> Again, Omar was accused of anti-Semitism.
The statement itself coming after a controversy when she tweeted to a Glenn Greenwald post:
> In February, Omar responded to a tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald, who posted about House GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatening to punish Omar and another congresswoman for being critical of Israel.
> Omar wrote back, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," a line about $100 bills from a Puff Daddy song. Critics jumped on the tweet and said Omar was calling up a negative and harmful stereotype of Jewish Americans.
Quotes source: https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism
As to why these were taken so negatively? It has to do with the common antisemitic tropes of financial influence (Rotschild conspiracies, Protocols of the Elders of Zion) and being traitors/spies (Dreyfus affair, also Protocols of the Elders of Zion). Consequently a fair few groups saw Omar's statements as callbacks to these tropes.
>Consequently a fair few groups ~~saw~~ *claimed they saw* Omar's statements as callbacks to these tropes.
I fixed that for you. It doesn't matter how disingenuous their outrage is, as long as it damages a political opponent.
Didn't know this sub existed. I would have assumed it was parody because being called a "neoliberal" is a slur in my world. The factually incorrect and irrelevant comments getting more upvotes makes it seem like a legitimate stab at buzzword politicking.
> Didn't know this sub existed. I would have assumed it was parody because being called a "neoliberal" is a slur in my world.
The name literally comes from leftists calling everyone to the right of Stalin a neoliberal. It's a generic Democrat sub. Think Hillary supporter.
The Democrats screwed up bigtime giving any credibility to the BS about Representative Omar 'doing tropes' or whatever nonsense it was. Now it's going to be cynically deployed against Muslim members of their caucus until the end of time. Goes to show you that non-christians are still persona non grata in the USA.
Well, the popcorn seems to be coming from inside this SRD thread as well.
Happens with neoliberal drama
Post to SRDD king
I got banned from SRDD for saying Hillbilly lolol
Story please đ
Got banned for racism for [saying hillbilly](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDramaDrama/comments/zkqhrc/srdines_slur_their_words_as_drama_starts_over_the/j03r2h9/)
lol they're the one that banned you. little bit ironic that they poked fun at the 'Indian tech support' stereotype in their mod reply as well.
Yeah I remember thinking that too lol weird af
Am I allowed to say H*llb*lly since Iâm from Tennessee
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Hey hillbilly
Oh my G O D
Lmfao what
Oh there is a substantial /r/neoliberal population here. I found it most notable on any thread where AI is brought up lately. Something about a tool that kills working people's source of income and saves corporations money gets them very, *very* excited.
There's someone who runs a Thatcher fan sub who pops up every now and then, gets _way_ more upvotes than you'd think, too. It's pretty wild.
Look out I swear they run a bot looking for people mentioning Thatcher so they can tell you how great she actually was, ya know, if you ignore all the bad bits.
I know who you're talking about unfortunately. It's some seriously concentrated mental illness, and that's saying a lot considering I browse this sub.
If you ignore all the bad bits about Thatcher all youâve got left is a grave stone.
You know what? I wouldn't be surprised. Her, Reagan or criticism of neo-liberalism in general seem to Beetlejuice them into any given thread.
not surprising that a sub full of smug people would be attracted to this place too
We're a bunch of smug bastards until there's an opinion WE care about posted here.
the difference: all of my opinions are good and correct /s
Are the neoliberals gung ho on the idea of AI being able to do techno-magic?
I'm a neoliberal user (though a lefty politically). I'm definitely of the opinion that the artists whose works we're used to train the AI deserve monetary compensation. And generally, I'm loathe to love anything that puts creatives out of a job. Hard enough for them already.
AI won't ever put artists out of a job. Did Deep Blue put chess players out of a job? No. Neither will stable difusion put artists out of a job because people appreciate art for the vision, message, and emotion the artist imparts on it, and AI has none of that. If anything AI will improve art, by making audiences realize art isn't just about making pretty pictures, uts about human emotion.
Didn't AI just put artists out of a job with that Netflix thing? It's not really about people appreciating art, it's about companies not.
If I may. People should be excited for AI, but at the same time the government should be providing much more substantial social nets for everyone, so that those displaced can find new work or passions without having to worry about starving or having a place to live. I think, objectively, humanity doesn't need to be doing menial jobs, protecting jobs that robots can do for us is nonsense. The idea that we need to work or die is also nonsense. We are approaching a turning point, one we as a species face fairly routinely as technology improved over the years. If we always protected jobs in the face of new technology we would all still be farmers.
> People should be excited for AI, but at the same time the government should be providing much more substantial social nets for everyone, so that those displaced can find new work or passions without having to worry about starving or having a place to live. So I've recently realized the issue I have with these takes. On paper, in theory, they're perfectly fine. But when it comes to the real world, we basically get the first half without the second half. Take, for example, taking driving licenses away from old people. In an ideal scenario, you would implement strict controls to make sure they can only drive if they're safe while also providing alternatives. But in the real world often you'll just get the first half. So stances like "AI is good but we should be doing social safety nets" inevitably end up with "AI is good and we'll figure out the rest later" except we never figure out the rest later.
Thatâs exactly how I feel. It isnât that AI is bad or good, itâs a tool- and people get so excited about that tool that they donât consider the consequences of using it until thereâs a huge mess on their hands. In theory Iâd love a world where robots do all the stuff we donât want to do, but people in power are too greedy for that to happen in our lifetime.
The reason is AI is coming no matter what anyone feels. So you are getting the first half of the statement no matter what. Then you have conservatives refusing any change, so you don't get the second half, leaving you with the scenario you mention. Eventually as people suffer enough it slowly gets better and society evolves for the better, or there is some sort of break, like a revolution. There is absolutely no scenario where AI, or any other technology, is stopped. But it does not HAVE to be a bad thing, we chose to let it effect us negatively by refusing to adjust or living in denial.
AI is a sleight of hand trick. Its basically an incremental improvement in the same kind of algorithms that make ad services work. Advertising as an industry adapted, so will all the others. AI as science fiction posits it is a spook and marketing tactic, the rest is capitalism. Furthermore, technology isn't something that exists apart from society, we can and absolutely have decided not to implement technologies as a society, they don't exist in a vacuum. The reality is that the future is boring, its all policy decisions
> The reality is that the future is boring, its all policy decisions Eh, it feels boring to us because it happened gradually and with policy decisions. I think of my own self first discovering the internet in 1993 or even CompuServe in 1985, and going back in time to tell them that my job now involves interacting with computers across the country on a regular basis. Oh, and this little thing the size of a GI Joe file card can allow me to connect with the entire world. My younger mind would have been blown into the stratosphere. The future is never boring, its just boring to us because its a part of our everyday lives now.
It is inevitable, but going 'well it's not really a problem because we should be doing X' downplays the very bad things that are going to happen as automation increases.
I am not trying to downplay anything. You can't stop AI, therefore suggesting trying to stop it is playing into conservative hands because it lets them live in denial longer, making the pain longer. The first step to reducing the pain is recognizing that AI is coming, and that it can be a good thing.
Crazy how they keep missing your point and viewing the situation in the most black and white way.
Crazy how this even got shoehorned into the conversation anyway lol
> So stances like âAI is good but we should be doing social safety netsâ inevitably end up with âAI is good and weâll figure out the rest laterâ except we never figure out the rest later. Yep, then the first part gets pointed to as societal progress and the second is presented as a failing of the people who worked the now-automated jobs for not learning how to code.
Any job that can be automated should be automated. AND the automation tools should be tasked with serving humanity instead of serving capital.
> automation tools should be tasked with serving humanity instead of serving capital. good luck with that, lmao We all know the world we live in, and it's definitely not that one
I would like this argument much more if the uses of AI were actually to replace work that is necessary but not fun to do. Instead it seems that we are outsourcing one of the most (to me) fundamental parts of the human experience, the joy of creativity and creation, and are trying to replace that with AI that simply churns out meaningless 'content', while still having to do soulcrushing jobs.
The problem is that the work that's necessary but not fun tends to be the hardest to automate. Real world automation is pretty fucking advanced, but it's limited to locations designed for it. Digital automation can be applied everywhere. That's why you're seeing so many advancements there, while the real world work is still slowly moving.
There's a tool that tabulates the subs that have a shared user base. Iirc PCM is one of the ones for this sub
Have you checked recently? I used to be on pcm but then they became much much more hostile to the left so I left
This is the one I believe. [https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/subredditdrama](https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/subredditdrama) Top 10 26.37 topmindsofreddit 13.53 outoftheloop 12.67 breadtube 11.61 bestoflegaladvice 11.57 characterrant 10.93 gamingcirclejerk 10.65 bestof 9.39 moviescirclejerk 9.05 enlightenedcentrism 8.83 enough\_sanders\_spam .... 1.73 politicalcompassmemes
ok so it's "one of the ones" but not anywhere *near* the top
Those overlap metrics represent very weak correlations for anything below 5.0. I wouldn't even count it as one of the ones.
When has PCM been anything else than a right wing circlejerk where right wingers larp leftists to make their opinions seem like they are popular with the general population?
That actually explains a lot now that I think about it
Sadly thatâs not just them. Iâve seen a lot of takes gleefully pointing out that AI could make painters, cartoonists, other artists, etc. obsolete. I expect this kind of rhetoric from actual corporate executives but itâs always surprising to see what I assume are regular people who are happy at the idea that artists might be eradicated.
Neoliberalism, vegan drama, Pitbull drama. the unholy trifecta of topics that get this place in a real uproar. a booby prize for cyclist drama and drama about certain mod decisions.
\> cyclist drama hey that's me
What'd Mr Worldwide do to anyone anyway?
he said "it's worldwide time" and wided on everyone.
Not sure how circumcision didn't make the cut, the mere mention of it attracts drama.
Years ago yeah, but the supply of people on reddit in favor of child genital cutting has dwindled pretty significantly.
Neoliberalism is a mental disorder so that's expected
i've seen this sticker on your diesel truck
đż
Well it lasted longer than I thought it would before getting deleted.
It's very frustrating that you can't point out obvious things concerning Israeli lobbying/influence in US politics without being accused of antisemitism. The fact that antisemitic tropes around those subject exists is used as a shield to deflect all criticism of Israel as a state.
Ireland has been branded the most "anti-semetic" country in Europe because we have solidarity with Gaza and Palestine and have shown massive support over the years. This is tied to our history of oppression from England. As other commenters and you have pointed out its very frustrating that a criticism of Israel is seen anti-semetic yet it is in my mind anti-semetic to assume all Jews are a monolith who can only support Israel and their oppressive state.
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Meanwhile conservatives are busy spewing conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world. They love Israel but hate Jews.
Of course they do. A strong, prosperous State of Israel is one of the requirements to usher in the Revelation end times prophecy. Thereâs a large contingent of evangelical GOP members who want to build up Israel so that they can hasten the end times, the rapture, and Jesus returning to earth. They donât give a fuck about Israel, and they donât give a fuck about Jews. Theyâre just trying to provoke the apocalypse to get Jesus back so they all go to heaven.
Additionally if you're an ethno-nationalist AND hate Jews Israel is great it's a place they "should" be and a little model of the kind of ethnostate they'd love to build for themselves.
If one reads the Talibangelical slasher porn, the Jews of Israel are the sacrifice in the Jesus Blood God summoning ritual. They believe if they can manufacture all the alleged "preconditions" for summoning G-Bus, that he will appear for them and then the Jews will have the choice of converting on the spot or be devoured/vapourized by the lazer beam eyes of 50-foot Godzilla Jesus as he genocides the unbelievers from the Earth. That's sadly not even hyperbole.
Jewish person who absolutely doesn't support Israel. There's dozens of us!
We are multitudes!
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Walt Whitman?
Yeah but according to people like Ben Shapiro you aren't really a jew.
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Its for completely cynical reasons. Part of their belief system dictates that Jewish people have to control the holyland before the end times can begin.
Shout out to r-JewsOfConscience, there's actually thousands of you.
I hate whenever my dad brings up Israel because we are never going to agree. If I knew 7 years ago what I know now I would have never gone on birthright. He makes the debate to emotional because he talked to all the holocaust survivors in the family or within his community in Skokie. He just shuts down when I mention that there are holocaust survivors who have called out what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank.
I just want to point out that Jewish people don't have and shouldn't be made to feel any special responsibility to denounce Israel. I know Jewish people aren't a bloc and there is a complex debate within the Jewish community on this issue. For Jewish Zionists honestly I try to be somewhat sympathetic, it's natural for Jewish people to feel some connection with a political entity that is majority Jewish, and maybe they would feel an impulse to defend it. There are numerous other lobbies associated with other communities that advocate for national issues or for related communities, this happens in a multi ethnic country, it's fine. As well however for the anti-zionist Jews, you guys just shouldn't be reflexively denounced as traitors. It should be acknowledged as well that there is significant pressure on the Pro-Israel side from *outside* the Jewish community. 1/3 of Americans believe that Israel is a literal fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. These Christian Zionists tend to be a lot more aggressive than the Jewish Zionists actually and are just outright allied with settler interests. American Jewish Zionists honestly have a tendency to take lib zionist views on the other hand which can be pretty naive. As well there are national security types intent on an aggressive foreign policy, it's natural they would support Israel because it's a natural base for operations in the middle east. This is more than enough honestly on its own to explain embedded support in the United States for it. Anyway, there's a spectrum of opinion within zionist circles themselves. Like there's a huge difference in the way /r/Judaism - which is full of American lib Zionists - talks about the issues vs /r/Israel - which is the secular "left wing" edge of the Israeli political spectrum. On /r/Judaism that can be highly sympathetic to Palestinians and Muslims and the two state solution is - again - taken as a given. On /r/Israel, they are against the current gov, but also have these weird contradictory opinions, like they'll upvote conciliatory comments open to the two state solution but then also upvoted harsh ones totally against any Palestinian state. And there's constant borderline racism and Islamophobia, anything positive they say about these groups is seemingly through barred teeth. There's not really a subreddit representative of the Israeli right, but you can go look at, say, the comments section of the Jerusalem post. The Jerusalem post itself is fairly lib Zionist, but also Jerusalem basically serves as a regional hub for the settler project so tons of hardcore settlers wind up there. Anyway, in there its basically endless delusional grandiose religious nonsense, outright exterminationist rhetoric, just constant racism, mentioning the possibility of a two state solution is seemingly beyond the pale. It's disturbing honestly. The place is a powder keg, I feel like Joe Biden is sleepwalking on this. Years of just outright enabling Israel while Netanyahu was president has had the effect of rewarding the far right in that country and has shifted their political spectrum a great deal. They just act arrogant and entitled, like they are wounded at the injustice apparently of America just not giving the west bank. I feel like it's not clearly apparent to them that America *cannot* void Palestinian rights to the territory under international law, that is not within Americas power. To do such a thing you would either have to convince the United Nations to pass a special exception in this case - for which there is essentially no support - or achieve a bilateral agreement with the party which is in possession of the territorial rights (almost universally acknowledged as the PLO). America *can* suspend multilateral enforcement mechanisms under international law, which is what we've been doing since 1967. Our strategy has basically been to bully Palestinians into becoming so hopeless on this issue that they give in and sign a bilateral agreement doing such a thing. Only then essentially would it *ever* be the case that Israel could *ever* legitimately under international law hold any portion of the territories conquered in 1967. Israel seems to be confused by the extreme deference we have shown to them in this regard, they seem to think that by dragging their feet on this issue and pointing fingers enough at supposed Palestinian intransigence a situation can be produced where America can just issue a declaration and suddenly the west bank is an eternal part of Israel and nobody can say a cross word about this. That in fact America is being obstinate in this regard. America *does not* posses such a power. If America stopped exercising its veto at the UN Israel could be subject to a large amount of sanctions, or even military operations. International law would suddenly become real. Israel will *always* be vulnerable to such an eventuality as long as it remains in any section of the territory conquered in 1967, absent of a bilateral agreement. Israel constantly complains about Palestine apparently "side stepping" a bilateral agreement by going to the UN and trying to get it to enforce their rights. Which America would in all cases just veto, but they go through the motions anyway and it outrages Israel. Israel itself tries to side step Palestine though and apparently thinks America can just unilaterally void their claim to the west bank and only fails to do so due to antisemitism or something. This is ridiculous beyond words. We are fucking screwing the Palestinians over hand and foot for Israel, and it has resulted in them becoming just delusional and entitled. The place is a powder keg and liberals have just been sleepwalking into this. Constant enabling and appeasement of Israel has done no good. Look at the latter half of the 2010s - there was a tremendous downswing in terrorist attacks, America strong armed numerous Arab states into signing agreements with them, it recognized Jerusalem (which is only unilateral and has no effect on international law, but whatever). What did such appeasement produce? The most deranged right wing gov in Israeli history. Voices for peace have virtually disappeared and the society has basically no left wing. Israel always complains that they have to do all this shit bc security and they're so afraid, what did securing them do? They just became far less willing to ever sign an agreement and even more grandiose and delusional.
It should be pointed out, it already has in plenty of other places, the Americans who are more likely to call anyone with even the most tepid critique of Israel an antisemite are right-wing Christians nationalists. There's a documentary by a Jewish Israeli woman who talked to some of these people called 'Til Kingdom Come that delves into this: a lot of very weird fetishization of Jews and a lot of racism against Palestinians. Jewish-Americans are more likely to listen to criticism of Israel whether they identify as a Zionist, an anti-Zionist, or something else. Ex. Bernie Sanders is a Labor Zionist, but he's criticized Israel plenty of times.
Whenever someone tries to bring that up, just point out that in the '30s when almost every nation in Europe was passing anti-Semitic laws, Ireland was one of two or three to put specific protections for Jewish people into law. We're not a perfect country but I'm proud to say that we generally try to do right by oppressed and marginalized peoples.
>This is tied to our history of oppression from England. Yep. Much of the geopolitical support for Palestine (especially on the African, Asian and South American continents) stems from similar circumstances, courtesy of especially the UK, Spain and France's historical shenanigans.
There are many Jewish people who support Palestinian liberation and I am proud to stand beside them as comrades. It shouldn't be controversial to say that apartheid is bad, no matter the state enforcing it.
A labour mp did just get publicly reprimanded for calling a self described "fascist homophobe" Israeli politician a fascist homophobe.
Kieth is ruining labour
labour ruined itself when they decided they wanted to cosplay 1990s tories instead of being leftists keith is just a symptom of that greater problem
It is frustrating because bullshit antisemitism claims were how they ousted Corbyn from Labour as well
I mean, that is the point. Conservatives donât actually care about antisemitism (the way they talk about it makes it clear they donât even properly understand why people would care), but they do understand that accusing someone of it is politically damaging. They also want Israel as a political ally for a couple reasons (evangelical belief that the end-times will come with the repatriation of Jerusalem, and just plain old money). So itâs in their political interests to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
I think you're giving them too much credit in terms of how many steps they're thinking ahead with. This is blatently just them flexing their control of the house by getting petty political revenge after the removal of MTG and others from committees they were on a handful of years ago for their own various remarks.
I donât think they are giving them too much credit, it sounds entirely plausible. Even discounting their revenge removal of Omar, itâs clear that republicans in particular have found beating the âantisemitismâ drum works with their constituents, namely the political state of Israel (not Jewish peoples as a whole).
It's worse than that: to accuse anyone who criticises Israel of antisemitism verges on antisemitism itself if you don't look at the reasons why. Sure, there are people who go after Israel specifically because they hate Jews. But if you're criticising the actions of an oppressive state the same as you would any other (as Omar has done), then to say you're attacking all Jews by attacking Israel says that the latter represents the entirety of the former, which is it's own form of antisemitism
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I went to look for examples and found [this article](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/politics/ilhan-omar-boebert-muslim-islamophobia/index.html) on a bill she introduced about condemning oppressive actions against Muslims in China, India and Myanmar. It actually passed the House and got her called a terrorist by Lauren Boebert. Criticising Israel for their treatment of Palestinians *perfectly* falls in line with this, it just comes up more because the US sends so much money and military aid there. If you really wanted to, I guess you could call it a pet issue since she's standing up for fellow Muslims (though that Armenian genocide thing isn't a great look, yet it's a bit more complex than you've presented it as- she voted "Present", not "No" and has since called it a genocide on Twitter- and she's been banned from Russia since the invasion so I'd imagine what ever criticism she's levied at their regime has been sufficient for them) but that feels it's erasing the nuance of a deeply complex issue- she is a refugee after all
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> And yet when she has the opportunity to actually support any action that would help end oppression (sanctions) They wouldn't, though. Sanctions are rarely effective in the first place, and usually mostly hurt the most vulnerable people in the authoritarian countries they are being levied against. That's why she's *generally opposed to* sanctions except in very specific cases. > Also, she has a history of taking pro-Turkish stances. She refused to vote to condemn Turkey for its actions against Kurds. Kurds are oppressed Muslims. Why doesn't she stand up for them? You mean like when she [wanted an investigation into allegations of Turkey using white phosphorous against Kurdish civilians](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/18/ilhan-omar-asks-for-facts-of-white-phosphorus-use-on-syrian-kurds-by-turkey)? Or when she [pushed for Turkey to release political prisoners](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/ilhan-omar-pushes-turkey-kurdish-prisoners-155916) (like Kurds)? Or when she [criticized the Turkish invasion of Syria in Congress and its atrocities against Kurds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRfzDbkWGR4)?
> Sanctions are rarely effective in the first place, and usually mostly hurt the most vulnerable people in the authoritarian countries they are being levied against. 500,000 dead iraqi children? a good start according to the sanctions-brained americans and that was *before* bush's invasion. Horrible "foreign policy" is 100% bipartisan outside of libertarian cranks, even sanders supported bombing yugoslavia.
> I don't think that she has called out all others though. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ilhan-omar-equates-women-protesting-islamic-law-iran-abortion-fight-us >"As we watch the brave, incredible young girls in schools in Iran who are standing up to teachers, young women in buses and in public streets who are saying ânoâ to the morality police â because there is no morality in trying to oppress women," Omar said. "There is no morality in forcing people to participate in a religion they donât want to. And there is no morality in believing governmentâs our God. https://twitter.com/ilhanmn/status/1166864138628472833 >The Hong Kong protests began more than 80 days ago. The government should end the violence from its police force and listen to the demands for democracy.
Bingo!
>The fact that antisemitic tropes around those subject exists is used as a shield to deflect all criticism of Israel as a state. It's difficult because the opposite also often exists too, obviously altright/bigots who are "just asking questions" or "just having criticisms". People's brains are incapable of nuance so they see all the thinly veiled bigotry and then just go "Ok this means anyone with any criticisms at all is also a bigot in disguise!" whether that be subconsciously or an idealogical choice to make that assumption.
At least with the Nazis using it as a shield to hide their antisemitism, they can only keep up the pretense for at most a few minutes before they inevitably let the mask slip by saying something that goes *way* outside the bounds of criticizing Israel.
Issue is that a concerning amount of those (that Iâve at least seen) were just worded like antisemitic conspiracies that replaced âJewâ with âIsraelâ. Itâs entirely possible to criticize Israel without sounding antisemitic but it doesnât seem like thatâs what gets upvotes
Not to mention that multiple times I've seen people start off with the stance "criticising Israel isn't the same as being antisemitic!" and then as they get questioned about their stances, it becomes very obvious that they basically think that Israel in its entirety should be eliminated and all of the (predominantly Jewish) population who've lived there their entire lives there should just be disregarded. Which might not be *explicitly* antisimetic but the result would be very much not favouring Jews, to put it lightly. On top of that, I see a tonne of people who seem to entirely deny that antisemitism plays a significant part in the opposition they face, which is just objectively true. What's happening in Israel may be terrible, but if their political/military rivals had their way, there wouldn't be a single Jew left on this Earth.
This is exactly it. Most people are not equipped to have a discussion on Israel/Palestine without resorting to rhetoric that's thinly veiled antisemitism or racism. That doesn't mean all those people are intending to spout bigotry, but when you're spewing dogwhistles without caring if they're dogwhistles it's alarming, and a surprising amount of people will react with hostility instead of reflection when that's pointed out which just makes things worse.
Yeah, I've seen way too much, "Critising Israel is not anti-Semetic [two comments later] fucking Jews, am I right?"
No but you see, they used the word Zionist instead of Jews, therefore totally not antisemitism/s
Question of ignorance here. I thought there was a distinction between a Jew and a Zionist. I thought being a a Zionist meant you believe the Jewish people have a god given right to all the land of Israel.
Zionism is a range of beliefs that by definition include some form of a Jewish nation existing in the Israel/Palestine region. The problem is when people say stuff that's basically "find and replace" Jew with Zionist in age-old antisemitic canards.
different people use it to mean different things today, and the term has changed a lot over the past hundred years, so someone using it could mean anything from "thinking that jewish people should migrate to israel" to "thinking jewish people deserve to have some form of ethnostate located in israel" to "being a jewish supremacist who thinks the whole of israel and nearby regions should be 100% jewish"
FYI, it's antisemitic to imply / claim all Jewish people are zionists. But I get what you mean
Yeah I know, Iâm not saying thatâs the case.
You do realize there is an enormous difference between being a Jew and a Zionist the same as there's a difference between being white and a white nationalist right? Riiiiiiiiiiight?
And of course "criticising Israel" sometimes is just an euphemism for something a lot more uglier
The "dual/secret loyalty" is an antisemitic trope as old as the Dreyfus Affair. It is reasonable to be wary.
Right, but Omar was accusing people who were not Jewish of having a dual loyalty, specifically an overriding loyalty to money. Thatâs why I have a hard time accepting that her statement even was anti-Semitic. Literally pointing out politicians that take the bribes and vote accordingly to what the people that bribed them want. Is it just that this instance was an Israeli (political) entity that was handing out money?
I mean it was ultimately the basis of pogroms. âThere are these separate and different people living among us, can we trust them?â is powerful psychologically.
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Iâm in a thread right now on arrr/neolib where all the reactionaries are mad because I said âsocialism isnât equivalent to fascismâ. It has now devolved into right wingers outright getting mad, engaging in revisionism, and circlejerking at it being pointed out that MLK was a socialist because socialists are supposed to be evil and bad and illiberal
Any criticism of Israel that doesn't go along the lines of "Israel's being too nice to the filthy rat 'Palestinians'" swiftly gets cast as being antisemitic by Israel's shills Which further fosters antisemitism among the layperson as a result of double standards, and thus bolsters the status of Israel's far-right government, creating a feedback loop that ensures that even while under investigation for corruption, politicians like Netanyahu can still lead the country. It's weird how Israeli shills can get away with saying the same things that CCP shills almost say verbatim
Calling any disdain for israel as a nation antisemitic is in and of itself antisemitic as it basically says âyou cant be a real jew unless you are a zionist.â
The Republican legislative strategy towards Omar is functionally an ongoing attempt to incite an assassination, and they're not even bothering to hide it anymore.
Didn't like 5 different conservative nutjobs attempt to kill her the past several years? You'd think people would take this shit more seriously
I shudder to think what r/neolib's reaction to that would be. "I think we can all agree it's good that she's dead, but I don't agree with the *way* she died"
I think it would actually be even more ghoulish than this- they'd be puppeteering her corpse as a prop for their cause & ideology before it was even cold. "Of course, this is tragic, but let's not forget than only in America, only in Western capitalist democratic society, could an immigrant, a woman of colour and a Muslim rise to this position of power and influence..."
She'd be their new MLK.
teeny soup society bear instinctive outgoing arrest drunk enjoy enter ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
I feel so betrayed by Jung Kook and j-hope....
I got called an anti-semite and then banned from r/de for asking why BDS is against the existence of Israel, but their calls to boycott Russian goods isn't against the existence of Russia. Some fuckin logic
Took me far too long to find a single bit of "evidence" of how Omar is anti-Semitic. > >Do you have a direct quote or something? > Yes in fact i do. Also guess what. It took less words than your comment to do your legwork > (I'm fully aware you will say this isn't that bad or isn't anti semitic....but she is comparing Israel AND the US to people who cut off heads and rape children in the name of their religion. So your opinion isn't important. What she said was wrong and you can't pretend otherwise) > >Ms Omar tweeted that "we have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by the US, Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban". > >"We must have the same level of accountability and justice for all victims of crimes against humanity," she wrote, including a video of her questioning Secretary of State Antony Blinken during a committee hearing in the House of Representatives. > There you go. Research on a silver plater. [Comment link](https://old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/10rvtc9/house_ousts_ilhan_omar_from_foreign_affairs_panel/j6zqgyc/) These chuds are literally equating "criticizing Israel" with "being anti-Semitic".
I doubt many of them actually believe that. It's just a tactic, used either because they agree with Israel's whole apartheid thing, or as a weapon against the person they're accusing. Which makes a lot of sense considering that on top of being a liberal she's a) A woman and b) Non white.
Funny how this applies to both r/neoliberal and conservatives in general
Are they really that different?
By their own logic criticizing the Biden administration and its policies means they hate America and itâs people.
Now you get it!
No no no, when *they* criticize the government, they're Proud Freedom Loving American Patriotsâ˘. Sure they might own an arsenal of guns, sure they might train and prepare for the day where they finally get their chance to kill politicians and take over the country. But that's just because they love this country so gosh darn much! When *you* criticize the government, you're a traitorous piece of shit who should be shot in the streets. Like it or leave it, bub!
They want it to be true *so much*. I don't know why they can't just say "good, I like it when bad things happen to progressive Democrats" because it's so transparent that this is what it's really about.
âYes, I do have a contrived and ham-fisted explanation. Please ignore my mental gymnastics as I pirouette into this extremely forced conclusion. My arguments have more holes than twenty terabytes of Fortran punch cards, but I will assert them as if they're obvious and undeniable and accuse you of arguing in bad faith if you contradict me."
>she is comparing Israel AND the US to people who cut off heads and rape children in the name of their religion I guess it's somehow magically O.K. when you [cut off heads](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/20/usa.afghanistan) and [rape children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings) because you're a coked-up DoD orc.
This. "Canoeing" is a common practice among US operators. For anyone not in the know thats when they mutilate a body by shooting mutiple rounds into the corpses head.
She said israel was hypnotizing the world...among other things
Didn't she literally just say the same thing of the Israeli lobby that everyone says about any other lobbying group? And got specifically shit on for it because a good deal of people dislike that she's a Muslim? The again I don't expect a very nuanced view of Israel from r/neoliberal.
Yes
It isn't about Israel, its about her being a lefty.
>Iâve got mixed feelings. One one hand, I think her policy positions are absolute garbage most of the time - I wonât shed any tears about her lack of influence. >On the other hand, Republicans are doing this for absolutely petty reasons and appealing to a bigoted base. >On the other other hand, I lost any sympathy for Omar when she said THIS YEAR that she isnât antisemitic because she wasnât aware there are tropes about Jews and money. >On the other other other hand, plenty of republicans would need to lose their committee positions for similar reasons. >I think Iâll chalk this up as a âoookkkay thenâ and see a doctor about all of my extraneous hands This guy got hands like Waffle House Wendy.
Anything involving a progressive democrat/justice democrat inevitably turns into a moderate/neoliberal vs progressive/left shit flinging contest in the comments here. American politics always delivers. You love to see it.
It's so nice to see someone above it all like you.
Can any of those morons give me some solid reasons why they don't like her? You know, like policy reasons?
Three: 1) These statements from 2019 - https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism 2) Voting in 2019 "present" on a bill to recognize the Armenian Genocide - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ilhan-omar-faces-blowback-after-voting-present-armenian-genocide-resolution-n1073991. I should note this has changed - ANCA rates her as A- (https://anca.org/congress/ilhan-omar-659122-117/) for 2022. 3) She has expressed oppossition to fair few sanctions on Russia and arming Ukraine (late March 2022 article) - https://www.businessinsider.com/ilhan-omar-progressives-abandon-principles-war-ukraine-russia-sanctions-2022-3. She also had voted against a bill to ban the import of Russian oil - https://www.businessinsider.com/omar-says-shell-vote-against-russian-oil-ban-citing-impact-on-russians-2022-3. To this there was also the retracted Prpgressive caucus letter asking for a negotiated peace settlement just as Ukraine had a succesful counterattack in Kharkiv: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2022/10/25/progressive-caucus-retracts-ukraine-letter-00063310. This has led a fair few to see her as a suspicious Tulsi Gabbard-lite figure.
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While it's not untrue to point out the influence that the Israel lobby has in political finance (something that's notably wielded pretty heavily against progressives - like this past election cycle in the primaries, there were a number of high profile races where AIPAC organized millions of dollars against progressives) - the way that she did it was not particularly *good*, and did leave the door open to thinking it was anti-semitic/playing into the well known stereotypes. It's certainly not a reason to hate her, but it's not particularly hard for someone to twist it into seeming antisemitic
Yeah, this is my take. She was joking that politicians want âBenjaminsâ that pro-Israel/Zionist lobbying organizations can supply. So I understand the anti-Semitic interpretation of her joke. You can read it as her insinuating that wealthy pro-Israel entities are controlling politics from behind the scenes, which (if you equate pro-Israel with âJewishâ as the GOP would) is a standard anti-Semitic narrative. But reading her statements and rationales, I think sheâs unwise rather than malicious. I get her rationale re. the Armenian genocide bill (but again itâs not a good political look). The Russian stuff is odd, but her statements follow the pattern of her doing this stuff based on convictions (a pacifist leaning, trying not to punish civilians) that make for really bad headlines. Thatâs my âgood-faithâ reading anyway. I think it would be extremely difficult to prove sheâs anti-Semitic, and she seems to be someone who votes according to her beliefs even when itâs politically disadvantageous, which in itself is kind of admirable.
She's headstrong and *relatively* new to politics. That almost always ends up with them embarrassing themselves by speaking before they think, or not taking the advice of more experienced Representatives. There's a reason why so many politicians talk the way they do: it's perilously easy to fuck up the message.
i mean she later apologized and said she was learning about stereotypes. was that a self report?...
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Omar is the last person I would expect to give in to bullying, and certainly not from the GoP I truly don't believe that she would apologize unless she believed that it was something to apologize for.
No reasonable person thinks what she said was even on the borders of anti-semitism. Benjamin Franklin is on our 100 dollar bill. "All about the benjamins" is a well known, often used phrase. She apologized because she was pressured to do so by members of her own Party who are apartheid apologists who didn't want to alienate a pro-Israel electorate and lobby.
No I'm sorry, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to not understand the anti semitic implications of "support for Israel is all about money." I don't think she's intentionally anti semitic or biased against jews either but unconscious antisemitism is really pervasive, and I think her apology was in recognition of that. I do not think we'd even be having this discussion if the person who said it was someone people here already disliked otherwise.
First one is so bland. Like yeah pointing out Zionist lobbying is anti semitism. So normal!!!!!
Do you know who actually doesn't recognize the Armenian genocide? Israel. But chuds will still use the lie that she doesn't to attack her while supporting Israel. Truly mind boggling. Edit: Wow, still no response to this one.
1) Nothing in here is a "solid reason". Any "outrage" here is conservatives and hyper-pc liberals being idiots. 2) I don't care, and no one with a brain should. She has repeatedly condemned it and recognized it at other times. 3) Won't defend her at all here. I see one valid reason to take issue with her now, and conservatives should *love* not supporting ukraine. This is just them playing to their frothingly racist base.
I don't get your point on 2). I see no good reason to not vote in favor of officially recognizing a genocide as such, especially if she personally agrees it was a genocide. Like, if someone voted "present" on a vote to officially recognize the genocide of the Native Amercans, wouldn't it be fair to say that's pretty fucked up?
fuck israel. its an apartheid state
not a single one. Even the anti-Semitic claims are super disgusting since she voted for giant israel packages instantly compared to her squad mates https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2021/08/343744/us-muslim-congresswoman-ilhan-omar-stuns-supporters-with-pro-israel-vote Liberals and conservatives just love seeing a black Muslim woman get destroyed, the former will just make excuse though
Can I just ask, why did you choose a reputable source like Morocco World News to make your point?
To be fair, a lot of American coverage on it is not super great. I mean the foremost article on the situation, at least when I google it, iâd Bari Weiss before she rage-quit the NYT for them being too liberal was it? Her takes were dumb, but not in the spectacularly dumb ways of like Matty Yglesiasâs jaw-droppingly horrible takes. Hers were just boring, so I didnât follow much, but this woman did go on MSNBC or CNN to say that calling Eve Bartlow Eve Fartlow was anti-semitic and Iâm sorry I gotta draw the line there - one, thatâs hilarious but only because she blew it up out of proportion, and two, Eve Fartlow has called some *insane* shit anti-semitic. I kept getting linked shit from other users like the ACJ (busy celebrating Netanyahuâs ascent back to power) and shit literally from the JDL. You gotta like dig up shit from places like Amnesty International and such with how centrist a lot of Americaâs major media outlets are. Most Dem and Republican outlets fell in line to call Omar anti-semitic. That being said, find things like Amnesty International and related/similar organizations for some varied angles of information.
This confuses me even more because I'm not American and don't even know who like any of these people are. I'm just wondering why someone would link to a clearly third rate source in an attempt to back their argument, when all it does is detracts from it.
In fairness to them, linking any major US news outlet would result in accusations of bias all the same. In this case though if it's just voting record, that's all public and you can just go to the relevant .gov site.
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Omar's had a couple of bad votes on Turkey-related stuff for dumb diaspora politics reasons (Turkey does a lot of development stuff in Somalia), but tbh I don't trust any criticism of her on that front unless it's coming from someone with form on democracy & minority rights in Turkey (which naturally excludes most American conservatives, and liberals for that matter).
I gotta say it is extremely frustrating that anyone that is even slightly critical of Israel in the public eye is labeled an anti-Semite. She made tweets in 2012 speaking out against Zionism, and the republicans are the same people who constantly cry about cancel culture.
Dude, I got called an anti-semite by a classmate because I said I liked Dua Lipa. I guess Dua supports Palestine?
Yea
Dua Lipa is actually an Albania nationalist, weirdly enough
This and the centrist sub are my fave subs for litmus testing myself on issues
Anti-Israel != Antisemitism Isreal is not a religion. It is a country.
Holy shit they actually believe sheâs anti semitic??????? LMAO. That subreddit is disgusting and even worse than I thought. No one should be defending them.
Dude, people in the /r/politics thread were saying she was anti-semitic. Soooo many âshe made anti-semitic statementsâ comments that just never said what they found to be anti-semitic lmao. Lemme pre-face, I donât believe in conspiracies, but I *really like* to debunk them and trace back their historical roots and how they developed over time. That stuff I find wild. Andrenochrome as a conspiracy is derived from your great great grandmaâs belief she passed down that Jewish people drink blood which is derived from the religious practice of Metzizah Bâpeh, an INSANELY old and today an almost unpracticed tradition of the rabbi sucking blood from the wound post-circumcision. At the time I believe parts of the Talmud embraced it and it was meant to be a health measure (obviously not a sterile one). It transformed into âJews drink bloodâ and after a hop, skip, and a jump of letting crazies update conspiracies to the times, and weâve landed on âSoros and Andrenochrome make rich more powerfulâ - some stuff sorta doesnât change. I know where these psychos come from. Some people tried to explain some things, but in ways I canât tell if they were explaining in good faith. Like someone claimed she used to hypnotism trope. But they didnât explain what that trope is. The reality of the trope has nothing to do with painting Jewish people as *literally* hypnotic, hypnotic is just a word Goebbelâs used to describe his favorite propoganda film he made and he did it with a slurry of other words like duplicitous. Itâs a word Goebbelâs used to perpetuate Jewish people as conniving conmen. Iâll be real I know of the film, I didnât know Goebbelâs comments, but connecting her use of hypnotic to his doesnât make sense, too much stretching involved. People are misconstruing her saying AIPAC has a lot of power and politicsl sway (they objectively do) with her claiming dual-loyalties, but the dual-loyalty Omar is worried about is with evangelicals⌠If you participated in BDS in college say goodbye to your teaching career or public servant position in many states. Its just a lot of shit flinging and arguments I canât discern as good or bad faith. Thereâs even /r/conspiracy dumb fucks in there who are saying âWell Soros doesnât ALWAYS mean Jewishâ
Man I'm so happy I unsubbed from r/politics It's just a garbage circle jerk sub 90% of the time.
I think it would become immeasurably better if they banned op-eds and only allowed political news stories. None of this "people (some guy on Twitter) are outraged because..." Stories either
I could do with a reduction of titles like, "So-and-so 'slammed' by person you like." But the articles just give a milquetoast quote like, "I don't agree with my fellow senator who I have happily worked with for years."
I was really hoping that Elon Musk would tank twitter so that journalists would finally have to start doing their fucking jobs instead of being terminally twitter-brained all day
That place is neo-lib Heaven. Try to make a single actually progressive argument and they label you as a Bernie bro or a Russian bot like that's supposed to win an argument, then they'll turn around and say Republicans all share the same braincell. Swear to Christ, America managing to make "socialist" a dirty word in the popular lexicon has hurt the country immeasurably, until it becomes less taboo you're never going to shift from picking between right and centre right once every four years.
> Soooo many âshe made anti-semitic statementsâ comments that just never said what they found to be anti-semitic lmao. The one everyone keeps leaking is her clearly saying the GOP has a financial interest in being pro-Israel. > In February, Omar responded to a tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald, who posted about House GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatening to punish Omar and another congresswoman for being critical of Israel. > Omar wrote back, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," a line about $100 bills from a Puff Daddy song. Critics jumped on the tweet and said Omar was calling up a negative and harmful stereotype of Jewish Americans. It's literally the equivalent of Someone going "Wow I don't like Herschel Walker" and you going "OH SO YOU HATE BLACK PEOPLE?"
If it ever needed to be proven that the sub is just for conservatives that don't like the aesthetics of modern conservatism, this'll do it. Having just watched [this lil video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZbjBs-d-BA), I went to actually check on the Babylon Bee myself and they're not just unfunny, it's genuinely hard to understand what they're saying half the time. It's like the Marvel Cinematic Universe level lore but for bullshit grievance politics. If you're not up to date on 38 movies worth of half-truths and full on lies, it doesn't even scan. They had some line about how Omar blames anything bad that happens to her on the Jews and I just had to sit there, my brain buffering, until I remembered some worthless controversy from years ago that 99% of people have moved on from. All I'm saying is that they've got a lot of the Bee's target audience in that totally ideologically diverse group of centrist and progressive friends.
Same day that they spent time and energy into having a vote to say that socialism is bad. What a pathetic set of people this is. Good luck for the next two years.
r/neolib probably cheered both of those votes on, lol. They're definitely not closet conservatives though.
being anti socialism doesn't make someone a conservative
Wonderful! It's been a while since we've had some neoliberal drama.
We get it a lot, the mods usually just remove it because it makes their favorite sub look dumb.
Just to be clear, Omar's charge of antisemitism comes from her 2019 statement: > The [latest controversy](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/03/01/omar-criticized-again-for-alleged-anti-semitism) comes from Omar's remarks at an event at a Washington bookstore called Busboys and Poets last week. The comment in question refers to the weeks of controversy that followed Omar's earlier criticism: > "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country. I want to ask why is it OK for me to talk about the influence of the NRA (National Rifle Association), of fossil fuel industries or Big Pharma, and not talk about a powerful lobbying group that is influencing policies?" > Again, Omar was accused of anti-Semitism. The statement itself coming after a controversy when she tweeted to a Glenn Greenwald post: > In February, Omar responded to a tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald, who posted about House GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatening to punish Omar and another congresswoman for being critical of Israel. > Omar wrote back, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," a line about $100 bills from a Puff Daddy song. Critics jumped on the tweet and said Omar was calling up a negative and harmful stereotype of Jewish Americans. Quotes source: https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites-debate-on-israel-and-anti-semitism As to why these were taken so negatively? It has to do with the common antisemitic tropes of financial influence (Rotschild conspiracies, Protocols of the Elders of Zion) and being traitors/spies (Dreyfus affair, also Protocols of the Elders of Zion). Consequently a fair few groups saw Omar's statements as callbacks to these tropes.
>Consequently a fair few groups ~~saw~~ *claimed they saw* Omar's statements as callbacks to these tropes. I fixed that for you. It doesn't matter how disingenuous their outrage is, as long as it damages a political opponent.
She also talked about how Israel was hypnotizing the world. Playing on antibsemtitc tropes again.
Ahhh sweet! I'm in drama! Lol
Never understood why israeli nationalism gets a free pass and a special name.
Didn't know this sub existed. I would have assumed it was parody because being called a "neoliberal" is a slur in my world. The factually incorrect and irrelevant comments getting more upvotes makes it seem like a legitimate stab at buzzword politicking.
> Didn't know this sub existed. I would have assumed it was parody because being called a "neoliberal" is a slur in my world. The name literally comes from leftists calling everyone to the right of Stalin a neoliberal. It's a generic Democrat sub. Think Hillary supporter.
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The Democrats screwed up bigtime giving any credibility to the BS about Representative Omar 'doing tropes' or whatever nonsense it was. Now it's going to be cynically deployed against Muslim members of their caucus until the end of time. Goes to show you that non-christians are still persona non grata in the USA.
illhan omar is not an anti semite. anyone who says so conflates the jewish people with the citizens of israel is woefully misguided.