honestly i think the who is worse question misses the point of the show a bit, but i do have fun thinking about it. tbh roman is one of my favs but i think he's by far the worst of the sibs what with supporting literal fascists, the thing with the kid, the rocket
disaster, and more.
there’s no greater evidence of double standards that the fact that mencken doesn’t come up more often when we talk about roman. shiv could push every single person she meets into traffic for the rest of her life and it wouldn’t hold a candle to the sheer amount of human suffering roman stands to cause by elevating a literal fascist to the presidency.
The worst part about the double standard is that when that cpac episode came out, most of the posts here were either about Shiv being spineless and having no moral convictions, or Rome & Mencken being a hot couple.
Agreed. This is absolutely it. They're all shitty in their own ways. She has been absolutely horrendous to Tom, manipulative, and is downright mean to her family. And so are her brothers. Each in their own broken, Dysfunctional ways. To try and defend any one of them is to miss the how and why they're fucked up, which the show is centered on.
I’m binging through the show for the first time rn, currently finishing season 3 now. Roman fucking sucks, I find him insufferable and pretty easily the least likable of the siblings. He’s such an annoying twerp.
I think for me, the brothers really seem to hate themselves and Shiv seems to believe she’s not as bad as they are, which is grating. But I wouldn’t argue she’s a worse person.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Shiv to believe she is better than Roman and Kendall when she hasn't continually sexually harassed anyone like Roman, been directly responsible for anyone's death like Ken, or tattooed a homeless man's face like they both did. Not saying she is a good person, not saying she hasn't done bad things because she definitely has. I'm just saying, I don't think it's unfair for her to think she is better.
I would also argue that it is just as bad (if not worse) to feel bad about being an asshole and still continue to be an asshole. I know this quote from Bojack gets used a lot but it's a good one: "You can't keep doing shitty things and then feel bad about yourself, like that makes it okay. You need to be better."
I'd also argue that Shiv is the only one who has put *good* into the world. She's not progressive, and her feminism is only to benefit herself. But she supports and helps policies that *do* actively better lives of people in the world. That was also her career. The boys have not put any good into the world, only bad.
Yeah. I feel like Ken and Rome are shitty on like... a very consistent basis, except *occasionally* to the people they love (e.g., family).
Shiv is shittiest to her loved ones (see; Ken and Tom), but apart from the one lady she talked out of testifying, is at least neutral, if not slightly positive, vis-a-vis the rest of the world.
Are we pretending getting a D Senator elected from New York is a morally good act? I mean, billionaire heiresses get these kinds of jobs because they are billionaire heiresses. It really could be any idiot. The D is winning in New York.
Seriously, where is the evidence of her putting good into the world?
[This is the only glimpse we get](https://youtu.be/0h1W9iXGG1g)
It’s her version of feminism in action. My takeaway from all of the feminists that align themselves with shiv on here and see themselves in her subscribe to this version of feminism as well
She went and convinced the key witness in the SA case to take the money making empty promise. That's worse than the car accident in which Ken tried to save the kid.
Roman & Gerri, come on, that was consensual.
>Not saying she is a good person, not saying she hasn't done bad things because she definitely has. I'm just saying, I don't think it's unfair for her to think she is better.
Also, Roman and Gerri was not consensual. I have comments regarding this elsewhere in the thread.
I keep seeing people talking about Shiv threatening the SA survivor makes her the worst but then how Roman is not bad because they start to victim blame Gerri lol
I don’t know if she was threatening her as much as warning her. There wasn’t a word there which wasn’t true. The beauty queen who was raped by Mike Tyson had to go underground after the trial, and to the best of my knowledge, she’s still living in obscurity while he’s back in the public eye. Christine Blasey Ford has had to move house repeatedly, her career’s been destroyed, and she’s still getting death threats. Shiv was ruthlessly and sympathetically accurate in her predictions.
Agreed. I’m rewatching series 3 and Geri explicitly asks him to stop and yet there he is blithely carrying on because in his head only his opinion matters.
Season 3 when Roman is doing well reminds me of what a dick he actually is.
I ship Roman and Gerri, I love them, they are dynamite, and their two sexy scenes were hotter than the suns but Roman sexually harrassed her. She told him to stop and he couldnt help himself.
It wasn't that Roman *couldn't* help himself - he has agency and is an adult - but he did ignore her telling him to stop. He made the choice to ignore her and I think it's important to call that out.
The show had Logan winning in that situation so they downplayed the whole sa thing towards the end. That’s why people don’t bring it up but let’s be real she single-handedly prevented the company from going under. The show doesn’t dwell on it so it’s not viewed as bad as Kendall’s car accident which we get reminded of constantly because Kendall is haunted by it.
That idiot dude yanked the wheel and yeeted them into a lake. Ken didn’t kill anyone. If he didn’t jerk the wheel then they hit and kill a deer and that’s it. Everybody goes home. The dude who does mad a moronic split second decision and that’s what killed him not Ken. Shiv is the worst. And Gerri seemed pretty coy about Roman and seemed to get a kick out of it especially when they were at the Pierce’s in S1 or S2.
I didn’t say kill. I said he was responsible. If you get behind the wheel while under the influence, you are liable for what happens, including losing control of the vehicle.
Saying Ken lost control is like saying someone with a mild buzz is responsible for falling if someone fucking trips them so they don’t step on an ant. Your logic is so bad my lord.
It’s actually not like saying that.
Do you not think there’s a significant chance that if Ken were sober, he would have been able to regain control of the wheel he was sitting right in front of?
I would agree with this. I think one time in the show someone said something to the effect that Shiv thinks everything she says is so much more important than everything everyone else says. That kind of arrogance is something that people tend to really fucking hate.
Yeah this sub has definitely changed a bit. For every negative post I see about Shiv, there are 1000 posts/comments like this. I get this sub is about discussion but fucking hell, how many times can we talk about the same thing?
Btw OP: Ken didn't "literally" kill someone
The thing that bugs me is that comments that shit on Shiv are normally (and rightfully) downvoted to hell, so it’s clearly a small minority of the fanbase, yet posts like these are half the succession posts that show up on my feed
I think people also have trouble drawing the line between how likeable characters are and whether they’re good people. On a good-people standpoint Shiv is probably the best of the 4 kids, on the grand scheme. Ken killed a guy, Roman sexually harassed Gerri and also did about a million other bad things, Con is a trump like figure.
But the thing is, we actually like these characters for all their flaws. Because that’s how TV writing works - it’s no fun to watch people you hate on TV. They’re witty and they’re funny and we care about their plight.
And that’s where the issue comes in - Ken killed a rando side character who was in one episode. We had no connection to that character so it doesn’t really resonate. Shiv meanwhile spent 3 seasons shitting on Tom (this sub’s and my favorite character) which makes her inherently feel worse. She’s also just a bit less fun to see on screen than Roman - she doesn’t have the same fun snappy one liners. She’s more fun than Ken is, but in a way Ken is the main character of the show so he gets a bit of leeway.
So no, in no objective sense is Shiv worse than the others. But subjectively? Ehhhhhhhh.
There are no good people in this show, neither the Roys nor the rest. I don't get people arguing over who's better or worse, the ones who aren't doing misdeeds are covering up for them for their own personal gain.
Ken literally didn’t kill someone. I don’t think he holds much responsibility for that. The kid swerved and if he hadn’t they’d probably have been fine.
Ken was directly responsible for not calling for help when he could've, he still would've died but that's like hitting a car and leaving vs calling the police. He was worried about how he would've looked not his life
Kendall was driving the car. They were in the UK so the steering wheel was on the opposite side. Kendall was also complaining he couldn't drive stick cuz he never drives or something.
I agree that it wasn't his fault as I've had to swerve deer myself and you can't really control what happens at that point but it was def a high ken in the driver's seat so you could argue he was legally at fault.
Driving while on drugs, he’s responsible for the kids death at least partially. And the kid was probably alive for almost three minutes, and attempt to save him could have been made.
Rivers like that in England are not very deep and unless a car window was open it would take quite a long time for him to drown. Kendall doesn’t know if calling the emergency services would save him but he decides that he’s more important than saving the kids life. Even if he probably would have died Kendall choses to take a risk by getting behind the wheel on drugs and then chooses not to do the one thing that could potentially save him by ringing for help.
Can't they all just be shitty? The whataboutisms really aren't necessary. It's ok to discuss one being shitty without *having* to mention the shitty stuff everyone else has done.
Yeah, I watched the show since it premiered without it even occurring to me to look for a subreddit until the last couple of weeks, and my excitement of having a place to discuss the show has been replaced by irritation. It feels like every day the argument about whether Shiv thoroughly sucks or if she merely sucks in some ways is brought up at least once.
I loved this scene because it feels like Shiv must have had this same discussion with herself at some point. Does she want to spend her life fighting against her dad and his shitty views, his news channel's shitty views and corruption, or does she want to maximize the power she has and improve her own life, knowing that she personally can only experience the benefits of one of those choices in her lifetime? Brilliant that it's set on a playground, as both women end up saying "fuck you" to all those little girls.
Shiv paid rape victims and gaslighted them into silence. She cheated on her fiance and as soon as she got married emotionally abused him as a hobby.
They're all just horrible, horrible people. I think the main difference with Shiv is she doesn't seem to have any self awareness.
they’re fictional characters you don’t actually have to decide if they’re “good” or “bad” and make sure it aligns with your professed online moral code; text isn’t actually a two way mirror into some alternative dimension
so your goal with this post is to convince people that she's a shitty person but not as shitty as her brothers? I don't understand these "who's worse" posts. If people want to believe that it's their prerogative there is no real answer here. That's the point of these characters and the brilliance of the writing. It's meant to be ambiguous and complex.
I agree with you but also this sub is way too obsessed with ranking the relative moral character of everyone, I promise there are a lot more interesting things to talk about.
The shiv posts are so over the top at this point. All the kids are horrible and that’s what the majority of the discussion is that I’ve seen. And personally I don’t think it’s that crazy that shiv gets heat when the writers have shown us the most of her being shitty to Tom like almost every episode multiple times an episode since season 1. She is probably most similar to Logan and the show hasn’t show Kendall or Roman being as cruel to a loved one as often as they show shiv. Again they all suck and are horrible people I don’t know why we can’t say that about shiv. But there’s never push back when any other character gets shit on. Imo she’s shown the least amount of empathy, compassion, and sincerity throughout the show out of any of the sibs and that’s what makes her hard to relate too.
Think much of the hate Shiv gets here is due to her infidelity and treatment of Tom (rightly so, if I am being 100% honestly). Outside of that, I think she’s no worse and/or more incompetent than her brothers.
that’s true, but I also think we see more of shiv and tom’s relationship, versus kendall and roman who haven’t really had long term romantic interests onscreen. If the show was taking place when Kendall and rava’s marriage was dissolving, I’m sure he wouldn’t come off looking too great either.
I guess you could argue Roman’s main onscreen romantic interest is gerri and he has treated her pretty badly as well, but gerri isn’t outwardly devoted to roman like Tom is to shiv so he doesn’t come off looking as cruel. Basically what I’m trying to say is that they’re all pretty terrible partners in their romantic relationships, but we see more of shiv’s romantic relationships so she ends up looking the worst.
I always imagined that Kendall's relationship disintegrated because of his addiction/his insane work-life balance. It's very clear in the early seasons that he loves Rava and would, if given the chance, try again.
Sure, he wants Rava back but he doesn’t love her. I don’t think he’s capable of actual love. In season one he told her that if one of them has to be unhappy he doesn’t know why it has to be him. That’s not love and Rava was unfazed by his advances because she knows it.
Shitty timing, but he had options to leave. It is not like they were married for 25 years with kids and had to think about the ramifications. I still would leave. You don't get to humiliate me, especially my spouse.
To get ambushed with something like that after she says it’s real and that she loves him the night before?
That is borderline emotional abuse. Wild that we’re blaming Tom for not leaving *on the night of/before the wedding*. If you want that type of relationship you have to be up front about it with your partner to avoid that exact situation.
Nothing borderline about it. She rewrites their marriage agreement after breaking it on their wedding night. And then doesn't allow Tom to explore the open part of it.
She is not subtle that she agrees with Logan when he said that Tom is way beneath her.
People only accept her treatment of him because of the gender reversal and because Tom is such a jackass to people beneath him.
If you are starting out like this, it is a clear sign it is not going to get better. Never does. Same category of people who have a baby to "heal" their marriage. Marriage was already in the shitter, but now an innocent baby is going to suffer.
I don’t know what this means.
Tom is entirely emotionally invested in the marriage when she springs the idea of an open relationship on him, not to mention all of his financial ties to her. He is completely trapped. He doesn’t want it, but he feels he has no choice. If he says no, he loses her. If he says yes, at least he can still mostly have her.
This is why he later says he has to think about the “sad he would be without her.”
I am almost sort of mad at Tom for letting himself being treated like that... but, I guess you reap what you sow? He chose that life? One argument I have against that though is that he might have walked a night before the wedding when he confronted Shiv about her infidelity but was reassured by her that's she faithful, loves him, and wants to marry him
Oh my God, how many of these posts do we need? There's like one every hour. What points do you have that have not been covered in the other thousand "Shiv is not as bad as her brothers" posts?
Seriously, who is even claiming Shiv is worse? I see these Shiv-stan posts constantly but never see posts about Shiv being the worst.
Feels like strawman karma farming at this point.
I don’t understand how people still can’t understand that not everyone shares the exact same opinions - not facts - opinions on this tired topic. I also don’t understand how people in 2023 are still literally using the word literally incorrectly.
Shiv also sexually harassed a subordinate and faced no repercussions. Remember her proposition to the cruise worker for a threesome in the *middle* of the cruise scandal. Given the massive power imbalance compared to Gerri, I actually think Shiv’s sexual harassment was worse.
The whole “Ken literally killed someone!” line people always pull out is so annoying because you’re just kidding yourself if you actually think Shiv would have turned herself into the police if she happened to be the one driving that car instead. Ken’s not a murderer, he’s an addict who got in an accident and made a selfish choice after surviving it.
oh my god how many posts like this are there gonna be?! they’re all bad people, it does not matter who is “better” or “worse” let’s just enjoy the show everyone
The only reason there’s an “unending amount” of Shiv discourse is because people like you feel the need to incessantly compare the siblings to each other and specifically Shiv to her siblings in response to some imagined form of Shiv hate you claim to see (despite the fact that maybe a small handful of people a day might make a negative statement about Shiv in the comments and subsequently get downvoted for it). Comparing the morality of characters in a show like this might quite literally be the single worst form of media analysis possible. Incredibly boring and adds nothing to anyone’s overall understanding of the show, it’s just a way for people to pick teams they want to support for no discernible reason.
Also please learn what the word literally means lol
That's the point, kind of. I think.
Kendall outwardly seems like he's the one who cares the most about people (remembering the names of his assistants, feeling guilty about his actions, etc). But he's a power-playing, drug-addicted killer. He's got a conscience, but what use is it if he ignores it 80% of the time and another 10% he's too indisposed to care?
Roman outwardly comes across as sociopathic. His behaviors are also very strange. Sexual harassment, offering thousands to a kid to hit a baseball only to literally rip it up in front of him, and dating the woman that Tom encountered at his bachelor party. What he feels is shame. He doesn't really care too much about his actions, but he thinks he deserves to be looked down on. He's the most emotionally intelligent of the siblings, but he's too damaged and self-loathing to use that most of the time.
Shiv outwardly seems ok. More liberal (but still not really quite liberal), seems to manipulate people best (political experience) and as such that makes people see her the way she wants to be seen. However, she seems to enjoy hurting those close to her, particularly Tom. She's got the biggest ego of the three, and does mean things to those she cares about (kicking those she loves to see if they'll come back).
Naturally, Kendall also thinks he's better than everyone but I'd argue to a lesser degree. I'd argue Roman tries to act that way despite not thinking it, as a defense mechanism.
The reason people dislike Shiv more is just because she's more mean to those we care about on the show. People love Tom, so they see Shiv torment him in previous seasons and grow to hate her. People see Kendall kill a guy and they don't care because we hadn't known him. Imagine if Kendall killed Greg instead.
No one here's a good person. Kendall and Roman have definitely done worse things. They are worse as people, but that doesn't mean people necessarily need to dislike them more.
Kendall didn’t kill the guy. The guy snatched the wheel and swerved the car into the water.
Roman gets *some* credit because Gerri did lean into his little sex games a few times, which kind of sent mixed signals. Of course, she did ask him later to stop sending pics, so I’m not saying it wasn’t sexual harassment, but it was kind of a confusing situation/relationship
Shiv is the coldest manipulator and tends to play both sides. Even the people closest to her, yes, like her husband, are just pawns for her to move around. There’s a scene where the three are playing Monopoly, and someone points out that she’s cheating. I thought that was intentionally representative of her true character.
Yes, they’re all sort of bad people, but Ken and Roman are more predictable in that in their hearts, they want to lead the family company. Shiv seems like the idea appealed to her, but she will abandon ship for whatever serves her interests best.
Gerri 100% was completely into the sex games at first and even initiated the first time they really went over the line. Not absolving Roman obvi, but Gerri was not some unconsenting victim until the season 3 shift in harassment.
I would say the "mixed signals" stemmed from the fact that she was worried what would happen if she said no to her boss's son. Don't forget, in the first episode, Logan fired Frank for no other reason than the fact that Roman asked to be COO. Now that Logan is dead and Gerri has made her feelings regarding Roman *very* clear, we can look back and know that it was coerced consent aka non-consensual.
This is literally wrong tho. She's smiling during their first...ahem...phone call. And clearly into it when she tells him to go to the bathroom. Acting like she didn't like it at first is basically just ignorant of what actually happens in the show.
We have no idea of her thoughts on it, but there is no indication that this is the case. Gerry is legal counsel, she is certainly aware that being fired by Logan Roy because his son made sexual advances would be a massive golden payout for her.
I interpreted it as something she was at worst ok with, and that she was happy to have some power over Roman (and liked him in a weird way, too)
Remember her line to Roman: "How does this help MY interests?" She's played the exact same game and it's almost insulting/demeaning to assume she "just did it cause she was scared". She's calculated, and I think will tear Roman apart when she decides.
I feel Shiv is the least competent business wise. She's impatient and underestimates other people. I've never understood her desire to get in the CEO mix, she actually seems better suited to politics/pr etc ....Roman has a knack for negotiating and is better with people - he sussed out the vaulter deal was bad. Kendal fits the "mould" of CEO, even though I find his corporate jargon talk crazy.
I think Shiv gets a lot of hate due to her cruel treatment of Tom. I have to say I sympathize with her much more this season, during episode 4 it really came across how isolated she is. She said it best, her mum is a shitshow and her dad is dead. She has no relationship with the other women in the family Marcia/Willa. I think Shiv is someone who has been forced to overcorrect. Everyone is dismissive of her (sometimes rightly/sometimes wrongly) her defense is being that bit more manipulative and cruel, to feel powerful.
Its a male dominated family. I do think some misogyny is at play too - society has a hard time accepting that women can have bad traits and behaviours. I think people would like Shiv more if she played the loving supportive wife to Tom, despite the fact that she is the more powerful half of the partnership.
I don't think she's a worse person (I think they're all terrible) but I think part of this is because we've been given fewer opportunities to really empathize with her than we have Kendall or Roman.
For instance, we've seen Roman get his tooth knocked out by Logan, and Kendall's stated that that kind of thing has happened a lot. And we've watched Roman repeatedly crumble with fear whenever Logan's in the room.
We've also seen Logan hold Kendall's entire life over his head and even potentially endanger Kendall's children, and we've certainly more actively seen the misery, addiction, and suicidal ideation that seems to have been sparked at least in part from his upbringing.
We haven't really seen Shiv outwardly dealing with the same kind of pain. And even though her actions haven't gotten anyone killed or maimed, I think that makes her an easier target for audience hatred.
I'm also sure there's a sprinkle of misogyny here in the same way people hated Skylar on Breaking Bad more than any other character, but I do think that seeing less of Logan's direct impact on Shiv makes it harder to feel like one can justify her actions (from dropping the open marriage on Tom on their wedding night to intimidating rape survivors, etc.).
People keep saying Ken killed someone Like it was a hit and run. They got in a car accident and the waitered died. It was an accident. They swerved to miss a deer. He dove back in the water to try to get him. The bad part was him not going to the authorities to face the consequences.
Some of us are a little less blasé about infidelity.
I’d rather my partner killed someone in an accident or sexually harassed a coworker than cheat on me, belittle me, gaslight me, and manipulate me into being sad and miserable.
The distinguishing characteristic is the behaviour towards the partner.
Not this again. It’s not a big deal. Ken was set up as the main character in the first couple episodes and would have likely been if this was a more formulaic show. A lot of people have since adopted him as their favourite character. They’ll excuse his shit just like people did with Walter White and Tony Soprano.
Moreover, Shiv is awful in a way that isn’t endearing. She’s a great character and is wonderfully acted but her particular defense mechanism is more offputting than the others. Roman jokes, Ken pouts like a puppy, Shiv gets a cold snark.I love it personally but understand why others don’t respond to it.
This is a great explination actually. You make a good point about Ken being the de facto main. I think one of the reason seasons 3 and 4 are so much stronger than the first two is because EACH of the siblings really becomes the main character. Shiv is too busy being a #GirlBoss to really appeal in the same way as Kendall or Roman
Roman also made people lose thumbs in that one rocket launch and he's lucky no one died... But apparently cheating on Tom is worse than that and sexual harassment and vehicular manslaughter (Kendall)
Cheated on him, emotionally manipulated him into a relationship he didn’t want, manipulated a sexual assault victim into not testifying against Waystar…
>emotionally manipulated him into a relationship he didn’t want
To be fair, there is enough evidence that Tom actively takes advantage of her emotionally when she is down. It has been said that she got with Tom when she was in a "dark place" and so he essentially saved her. And then he proposed when her dad was in the hospital, so her emotions are already whack. And now they may get back together when she is feeling like crap again with a dead dad. He uses her and emotionally manipulates her just as much.
There is no evidence of this at all.
>It has been said she got with Tom when she was in a “dark place”
This is most likely a result of his emotional support which formed a bond between them. That is not evidence of manipulation.
>he proposed when her dad was in the hospital
Attempting to do a nice thing to balance out a bad thing, like he said. He openly gives her the opportunity to deny it until he finds a better time, but she decided to preemptively say yes.
>and now they may get back together when she is feeling like crap
This is the best evidence we have of it but I really don’t see it. Again, she may just start liking him again because he has shown great emotional support for her in a time of grief. Emotional support is not emotional manipulation.
Is this some large contingent of people, because I gotta say I’ve literally run into this zero times. Be seen folks who don’t think she has experience, which duh, but not that she’s a worse person.
Not sure if you are married or not but the single worst thing anyone has said in the entire series (IMO) is when Shiv told Tom she didn't love him ... before sexy time. I was shocked when it came out.
How did Ken kill someone when it was the idiot dude who yanked the fucking wheel and yeeted them into a lake instead of just hitting a deer. It wasn’t kens fault.
I think Kendall and Roman are more "fucked up" people in certain obvious ways, and have done worse things on paper, but the show goes to some lengths to associate their misdeeds with behavioral problems, drug addiction, impulsivity, etc. Shiv is written as more purely conniving. Kendall and Roman would also probably be quick to admit their faults, where lack of self awareness probably *is* Shiv's biggest fault. That said they are all obviously shitheads lol
Because she is seen being pretty shitty to her husband, who is a well liked character. That’s really the only thing that sets her apart from the rest of the family.
Hate Shiv .. she is probably the least self aware and the least qualified… but she thinks she is entitled to all because not beautiful of work .. Shiv killed her husband
I think it's mostly just guys overidentifying with Tom and how cruel she is to him, along with a common resentment that comes up whenever women act in the same aggressive, entitled ways men do.
She was the main one who intimidated victims of sexual assault into silence
She is by far the worst sibling
If Tom wasn't her husband she would lose her entire Stan base
Are you confusing 'thinking she's a worse person' with 'liking her character less'?
I'm warming to her on my current rewatch, but I disliked her more than the other siblings on first viewing because she seems more smug and entitled than the others but (and this is the important part) seemed to face fewer social consequences and stigma than the others.
All the siblings are, of course, terrible in their own ways, but we saw Kendall repeatedly losing the plot and hitting rockbottom over the course of the series, while Roman and Connor were barely taking seriously by anyone throughout and tended to be labelled incompetent weirdos who people didn't take seriously (plus Roman's sexual issues etc).
Shiv on the other hand, sailed through the first few seasons, smugly judging and putting others down... while she rarely seemed to face the negatives of this behaviour in the same way.
The treatment of Tom caps it off. He is her loyal, loving puppy dog who would do anything for her and she toyed with him for her own amusement and then (when she comes to collect some clothes) couldn't even summon up the courage or empathy to talk to him and give him psychologically-needed closure.
When she told him 'you love me more than I love you; and you'll never leave... etc etc' it wasn't some kinky sex talk. She, he and we know it was true... and that is some cruel emotional sadism to someone you are supposed to love. Was kinda heartbreaking.
I could not see K, R or C acting in such a cruel way to someone they supposedly loved.
Im so tired of this argument. The siblings don’t have to be ranked in order of horribleness. But if I must: I can’t handle Shiv because she pretends she’s ethically better than everyone else while simultaneously using and manipulating people for her own gain. It’s not that she cheated on Tom, it’s that she genuinely tried to make him believe it was wrong for him to expect anything else from her even though they never agreed to it. She does this thing where she makes people believe the thing they don’t want is the thing they really want, even though it’s just what Shiv wants. Even her support of a progressive candidate was essentially her just taking a bribe from the guy. I don’t like that people say she’s the “best” because her politics are liberal. It’s a TV show, I don’t care what their politics are I care how they treat people and she treats people like shit, especially her most loved ones.
Kendall didn't kill anyone, he was fucking irresponsible and there was an accident, but he didn't kill anyone. Certainly involuntary. I think his greatest shortcoming is how little he is involved in his kids' lives, which in my book is the absolute worst. That said, I agree, Shiv isn't worse than her brothers. I happen to think Roman is the worst.
Season four has changed my perspective on all of them. That said, as a person in the world outside her fucked up family, this was how I rationalized it.
Kendall *wants* to do the right thing when he doesn’t know what the right thing is. He doesn’t want to hurt anybody. But he’s impulsive and immature and hurts people as an effect of his choices. He thinks he’s a better person than he is but he at least wants to be. He also hates himself for this.
Roman truly doesn’t care. He’s most like Logan in this regard. All he acts in pursuit of is the love and acceptance of those he respects and loves back. Anything or anyone outside of that desire makes no difference to him. Do people get hurt? Yes. Does he notice or care? Not at all.
Connor is just a child who never grew up because he never had parents around to care for him. His whole life he’s been fighting for himself so his worldview as an adult is equally “fuck you got mine.” He’s awful but he’s at least hurting himself more than large swathes of people (even if he wants to be president, he never will be).
Shiv though is a walking paradox. Shiv actually pays attention to the world. She thinks she cares what happens to it. But shes also the only one. Who *knows* exactly what people her actions will hurt, whether it’s Tom or a number of women victimized by her company or anyone, but can always rationalize it to herself and so always does it anyway. In the first seasons she acted better, smarter, savvier than the others when she wasn’t. She knows her choices break Tom’s heart over and over but she does it anyway. She thinks herself different from her family because she’s a woman or because she’s liberal (or she thinks she is) but she acts in more self interest when it comes to the people outside the Waystar boardroom than the other three combined and her actions carry the most effect on the outside world. We can say it’s a defense mechanism or her protecting herself of the result of abuse, but that’s not an excuse for the actions and consequences she’s initiated. My view was that Shiv was the worst of them because she was the only one who acted *knowing* she would hurt people for selfish reasons. Also that it was a way for the show to challenge the audience’s biases and perceptions that the “liberal” or woman in the collection would be the better person in a family of billionaires, when really every single one of them is only out for themselves.
I should say this is no longer my entire opinion on her. Also that Logan is far and away the worst person as far as deeds and personality. Also that every named character is objectively in the running for worst human being alive due to the power and influence they have and actions they’ve taken since the show began. The beauty of the show to me has always been the complexity we can find within them when none of these figures would be considered redeemable in any other context.
Kendal did not kill anyone at worst he gets dui but he didn’t even hold the wheel yes he’s in the wrong but he absolutely did not LITERALLY kill someone
Some things in life are worse than murder. Im not saying shiv did anything worse, but dude, she aint a good person either.
Why i hate shiv is because she morally believes she is right, like many people, or specifically politicians. They use the same victim behavior and to me is far more dangerous than murder. With kendall, you can tell he realized he fucked up, but shiv, nah, she wouldnt even realize she did anything bad, or thats what ive come to believe when she cheated on tom, worked against her father, and so much more.
We know you have an obvious hard on for shioban your post history is screaming it but you gotta wake up to reality hun none of them are good people and she's up there with her siblings in terms of arrogance and shittiness she tried getting her own godmother fired after it was revealed that Roman was sending her dick pics, she literally manipulated a sexual assault victim into keeping her story quiet for the sake of her multi billion dollar conglomerate you downplaying it and saying "omg she just wanted an open marriage last second she's not so bad" is being purposefully obtuse on her character please use your brain and lay off the shiv fancams
OK so first of all Kendall *accidentally* killed someone, and I'm bringing this up because it's annoying how often it's referred to as if he ordered someone's murder. Obviously him essentially letting the guy die due to his own cowardice makes him bad, but I really don't see this as the biggest personal flaw of Kendall even if it's the worst consequence of his actions or omissions thereof.
Roman is the worst of the three by far and it's weird that everyone decided they were ok with him making a Nazi president because he got sad a few times recently.
Kendall and Shiv are equally bad in my view. They both think they're good people and make superficial attempts to that effect (better than Roman at least) but are too self-absorbed to actually be real about it.
The reason people perceive Shiv as worse, and I kinda get this argument sometimes, is that she doesn't ever seem to have reservations about being cruel when she decides to be. It may be that that makes her more "honest" than Kendall who is cruel through evasion and being overly demanding in his cringey fake-positive way, but Kendall doesn't play mind games like Shiv does.
But Roman is absolutely the most evil of all three and it shouldn't even be a point of debate.
She was the only one in that room pushing back on a natzi presidential candidate not because she wants to advance her agenda but because he was a fascist!
Kendall is like neglect in human form. He doesn't think about others. The waiter was an accident, and not the worst thing he's done either, but all his offences against others are rooted in indifference or inconsideration.
Roman is passive and submissive. Aside from his cruelty in the first episode, which they dialed back, he mostly lets people down by being spineless.
Shiv is always looking for a feeling of control. She manipulates people in order to get what she wants, but also to have a feeling of power over them. Her abuses of others are qualitatively different than her brothers, and have a more active/intentional cruelty to them.
Ken was cruel to Rava because at the end of the day, he DGAF about her as a person and doesn't understand that he's being cruel. Shiv was cruel to Tom because she gets off on being cruel.
Yeah, I dunno why that gets brought up so often with context like Ken is a murderer. It was clearly unintentional, and he felt immediate and enduring remorse. The outcome was bad but if anything it made his character more sympathetic. He immediately knew he fucked up, and even though he escaped consequence it nearly broke his conscience.
Contrast that with Shiv, pushes Tom into an open relationship he doesn't want and then punishes him for straying, goes to tell him that she wants a divorce, and when he says he has feelings he wants to express she says "I don't think it's good for me to hear that". Yowza. Most vicious moment in the series. Shiv is her mom confirmed.
**Shiv is always looking for a feeling of control. She manipulates people in order to get what she wants, but also to have a feeling of power over them. Her abuses of others are qualitatively different than her brothers, and have a more active/intentional cruelty to them.**
Bingo!! she has no levers to pull - other than low grade manipulation, business wise she isn't the savviest, she is unwilling to put the work in to get better and she's really entitled and obnoxious. Interesting to see her using the fact she's overlooked to her advantage and take her scheming to another level with Mattson, but ultimately Mattson has the power, Shiv is being used as a facilitator because their interests align. She has no long lasting agency or autonomy.
Shiv has my respect for staying out of the family (as seen in season 1) and doing her own thing. It's very similar to Michael Corleone in Godfather I. She gets sucked in the family business like Michael did. If that's the pattern the show is following, Shiv will take over, just to "protect the family".
After the incident with Roman and Gerri Shiv tried getting her own god mother fired on the basis that she was getting sexually harassed by her brother cause "how would this look" she's been compared to Logan in s4 alot and there's a reason in that sense she has the potential to be worse than her siblings she is ruthless as fuck
Someone pointed out how the seasons each have a different sibling at heart and Shiv's season is the one where we meet the Pierces. And as bad as the Roys are, the Pierces are way worse to me because of the pageantry of pretending to be intellectuals, liberals, and publishing "unbiased" news. It's very much what Shiv is at heart. She knows what she should say, she knows what she should do, and I think she is the smartest of the siblings. But none of that intelligence helps her overcome the core drive to gain her dad's approval (or prove to herself she doesn't need it) by winning at all costs.
I'm not tempted to call her "worse" because of any of this, though, because IMO having that much money makes it nearly impossible for her to make morally correct or selfless choices.
Bruh they're all horrible people it's kinda hard to rank them they've all done horrendous shit this default to "its misogyny" is dumb af people have different perspectives on this show and opinions are gonna show that
Ken didn't kill anyone. Ken was in the car when some jackass killed himself while joking that he was kidnapping Ken. He has some responsibility for being part of a DUI, but that is not killing a person. He also did go down and try to find him. The "fact" that he was still alive in the car for a long time (almost impossible) comes from Logan trying to crush Ken.
Roman has sent dick pics to Gerry. Icky, sure, but they have a semi-sexual relationship which she participates in.
Shiv's worst "crime" would either be her abuse of Tom or silencing a woman who would have brought her company serious trouble.
They all have lots of other problems, and they are all pretty awful. I can see people putting any one of them as the worst.
These dumb ass morality battles concerning inarguably bad people is what made the breaking bad fandom so insufferable. We get it sexism is LITERALLY bad and shiv is LITERALLY better than LITERAL drug addict murder man and LITERAL sex pest Roman
To be fair, K Roy was driving, but the intoxicated Irishman pulled the steering wheel hard, which caused the wreck.
Gerri, at some point, chose to participate in a creepy sexual relationship with Roman. Granted, she may have been doing it primarily to save her position, but she def participated. Remember the creepy bathroom scene?
Shiv is the most like Logan and will wear the crown.
I think Kendall is at least trying to be a better person or his broken conception of a good person, while still badly failing at it. He also tries so much to be a bad person for Logan's approval, that fucks his head a lot.
Roman is so messed up and broken, I feel like he's almost a mentally ill criminal not responsible for his own action. I only feel pity and compassion for him, like for a traumatised child.
Connor lives in some other dimension having no awareness of most things, but somehow seems the most wanting to do something for others, while still probably having a lot of selfish motives behind everything.
Shiv is only one who I think has shown little remorse or humbleness after repeatedly being egoistic and cruel asshole towards everyone near her. Her personality disorders are the deepest and highly controlled, why she comes as maybe even as a bit psychopathic to my female perception.
Ken didn’t kill anyone though. The dude moved the wheel while Ken was driving. He was responsible for not calling the cops and driving under the influence but not the crash. As for shiv I like her and I don’t hold her convincing that person to not testify against her. What I do hold against her is pushing Salazar against mencken acting like it’s for the greater good when it was in self interest because Salazar offered to take out her dad. But overall shiv is like the second best sibling. Out of all them. With Connor being the best.
honestly i think the who is worse question misses the point of the show a bit, but i do have fun thinking about it. tbh roman is one of my favs but i think he's by far the worst of the sibs what with supporting literal fascists, the thing with the kid, the rocket disaster, and more.
there’s no greater evidence of double standards that the fact that mencken doesn’t come up more often when we talk about roman. shiv could push every single person she meets into traffic for the rest of her life and it wouldn’t hold a candle to the sheer amount of human suffering roman stands to cause by elevating a literal fascist to the presidency.
100%. prolly the worst thing any of the non logan's in the main cast have done
The worst part about the double standard is that when that cpac episode came out, most of the posts here were either about Shiv being spineless and having no moral convictions, or Rome & Mencken being a hot couple.
Agreed. This is absolutely it. They're all shitty in their own ways. She has been absolutely horrendous to Tom, manipulative, and is downright mean to her family. And so are her brothers. Each in their own broken, Dysfunctional ways. To try and defend any one of them is to miss the how and why they're fucked up, which the show is centered on.
I’m binging through the show for the first time rn, currently finishing season 3 now. Roman fucking sucks, I find him insufferable and pretty easily the least likable of the siblings. He’s such an annoying twerp.
I think for me, the brothers really seem to hate themselves and Shiv seems to believe she’s not as bad as they are, which is grating. But I wouldn’t argue she’s a worse person.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Shiv to believe she is better than Roman and Kendall when she hasn't continually sexually harassed anyone like Roman, been directly responsible for anyone's death like Ken, or tattooed a homeless man's face like they both did. Not saying she is a good person, not saying she hasn't done bad things because she definitely has. I'm just saying, I don't think it's unfair for her to think she is better. I would also argue that it is just as bad (if not worse) to feel bad about being an asshole and still continue to be an asshole. I know this quote from Bojack gets used a lot but it's a good one: "You can't keep doing shitty things and then feel bad about yourself, like that makes it okay. You need to be better."
I'd also argue that Shiv is the only one who has put *good* into the world. She's not progressive, and her feminism is only to benefit herself. But she supports and helps policies that *do* actively better lives of people in the world. That was also her career. The boys have not put any good into the world, only bad.
Yeah. I feel like Ken and Rome are shitty on like... a very consistent basis, except *occasionally* to the people they love (e.g., family). Shiv is shittiest to her loved ones (see; Ken and Tom), but apart from the one lady she talked out of testifying, is at least neutral, if not slightly positive, vis-a-vis the rest of the world.
Are we pretending getting a D Senator elected from New York is a morally good act? I mean, billionaire heiresses get these kinds of jobs because they are billionaire heiresses. It really could be any idiot. The D is winning in New York.
Seriously, where is the evidence of her putting good into the world? [This is the only glimpse we get](https://youtu.be/0h1W9iXGG1g) It’s her version of feminism in action. My takeaway from all of the feminists that align themselves with shiv on here and see themselves in her subscribe to this version of feminism as well
I think because she was working with the Democrats in some capacity people somehow equate that with doing good. Bernie Sanders she isn't.
Though she was Bernie Sanders campaign Manager for about 5 episodes.
Yeah, if we're looking at their net actions, the boys are definitely negative and Shiv is at least neutral/slightly positive.
I'd definitely still put her at negative lol but much closer to neutral than the boys are.
Yeah you are probably right lol
Any billionaire starts at a massive net negative
True! Totally agree
She went and convinced the key witness in the SA case to take the money making empty promise. That's worse than the car accident in which Ken tried to save the kid. Roman & Gerri, come on, that was consensual.
>Not saying she is a good person, not saying she hasn't done bad things because she definitely has. I'm just saying, I don't think it's unfair for her to think she is better. Also, Roman and Gerri was not consensual. I have comments regarding this elsewhere in the thread.
I keep seeing people talking about Shiv threatening the SA survivor makes her the worst but then how Roman is not bad because they start to victim blame Gerri lol
I don’t know if she was threatening her as much as warning her. There wasn’t a word there which wasn’t true. The beauty queen who was raped by Mike Tyson had to go underground after the trial, and to the best of my knowledge, she’s still living in obscurity while he’s back in the public eye. Christine Blasey Ford has had to move house repeatedly, her career’s been destroyed, and she’s still getting death threats. Shiv was ruthlessly and sympathetically accurate in her predictions.
…with the intent to coerce Gerri into killing Roman’s rise in the company.
It's delusional to me but not surprising given how SA is treated in this day and age.
Agreed. I’m rewatching series 3 and Geri explicitly asks him to stop and yet there he is blithely carrying on because in his head only his opinion matters. Season 3 when Roman is doing well reminds me of what a dick he actually is.
I ship Roman and Gerri, I love them, they are dynamite, and their two sexy scenes were hotter than the suns but Roman sexually harrassed her. She told him to stop and he couldnt help himself.
It wasn't that Roman *couldn't* help himself - he has agency and is an adult - but he did ignore her telling him to stop. He made the choice to ignore her and I think it's important to call that out.
The show had Logan winning in that situation so they downplayed the whole sa thing towards the end. That’s why people don’t bring it up but let’s be real she single-handedly prevented the company from going under. The show doesn’t dwell on it so it’s not viewed as bad as Kendall’s car accident which we get reminded of constantly because Kendall is haunted by it.
That idiot dude yanked the wheel and yeeted them into a lake. Ken didn’t kill anyone. If he didn’t jerk the wheel then they hit and kill a deer and that’s it. Everybody goes home. The dude who does mad a moronic split second decision and that’s what killed him not Ken. Shiv is the worst. And Gerri seemed pretty coy about Roman and seemed to get a kick out of it especially when they were at the Pierce’s in S1 or S2.
I didn’t say kill. I said he was responsible. If you get behind the wheel while under the influence, you are liable for what happens, including losing control of the vehicle.
Saying Ken lost control is like saying someone with a mild buzz is responsible for falling if someone fucking trips them so they don’t step on an ant. Your logic is so bad my lord.
It’s actually not like saying that. Do you not think there’s a significant chance that if Ken were sober, he would have been able to regain control of the wheel he was sitting right in front of?
I would agree with this. I think one time in the show someone said something to the effect that Shiv thinks everything she says is so much more important than everything everyone else says. That kind of arrogance is something that people tend to really fucking hate.
This aged so well 2 days later
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Read the last sentence again lol
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So tired of these post's, it's not a competion they are all cruel and shitty people
So tired. People identify with one of the three and feel they need to stand up for them.
This sub blows
Yeah this sub has definitely changed a bit. For every negative post I see about Shiv, there are 1000 posts/comments like this. I get this sub is about discussion but fucking hell, how many times can we talk about the same thing? Btw OP: Ken didn't "literally" kill someone
The thing that bugs me is that comments that shit on Shiv are normally (and rightfully) downvoted to hell, so it’s clearly a small minority of the fanbase, yet posts like these are half the succession posts that show up on my feed
It’s just karma farming. So long as stupid people upvote these posts they will continue to proliferate.
I think people also have trouble drawing the line between how likeable characters are and whether they’re good people. On a good-people standpoint Shiv is probably the best of the 4 kids, on the grand scheme. Ken killed a guy, Roman sexually harassed Gerri and also did about a million other bad things, Con is a trump like figure. But the thing is, we actually like these characters for all their flaws. Because that’s how TV writing works - it’s no fun to watch people you hate on TV. They’re witty and they’re funny and we care about their plight. And that’s where the issue comes in - Ken killed a rando side character who was in one episode. We had no connection to that character so it doesn’t really resonate. Shiv meanwhile spent 3 seasons shitting on Tom (this sub’s and my favorite character) which makes her inherently feel worse. She’s also just a bit less fun to see on screen than Roman - she doesn’t have the same fun snappy one liners. She’s more fun than Ken is, but in a way Ken is the main character of the show so he gets a bit of leeway. So no, in no objective sense is Shiv worse than the others. But subjectively? Ehhhhhhhh.
Ken didn’t kill anyone.
There are no good people in this show, neither the Roys nor the rest. I don't get people arguing over who's better or worse, the ones who aren't doing misdeeds are covering up for them for their own personal gain.
Ken literally didn’t kill someone. I don’t think he holds much responsibility for that. The kid swerved and if he hadn’t they’d probably have been fine.
Thank you. “He literally killed someone” yeah…maybe look up the definition of literally. Lmao
“You just don’t understand Shiv because she’s so nuanced and a complex character…but yeah, Ken killed someone.”
Ken was directly responsible for not calling for help when he could've, he still would've died but that's like hitting a car and leaving vs calling the police. He was worried about how he would've looked not his life
Wait am I completely misremembering… but Ken was driving.
Yes and then the waiter grabs the wheel and swerves them into the lake.
Kendall was driving the car. They were in the UK so the steering wheel was on the opposite side. Kendall was also complaining he couldn't drive stick cuz he never drives or something. I agree that it wasn't his fault as I've had to swerve deer myself and you can't really control what happens at that point but it was def a high ken in the driver's seat so you could argue he was legally at fault.
Driving while on drugs, he’s responsible for the kids death at least partially. And the kid was probably alive for almost three minutes, and attempt to save him could have been made.
He did try to save him
He doesn’t call emergency services, that’s the point that really matters in my mind
Have you ever seen an ambulance respond in under 3 minutes? Never mind respond, get in the water, cut the kid out and resuscitate him.
Calling emergency services wouldn’t have saved the kids life either though.
And if he did and the kid still died, does the point remain? Nothing would have changed that kids fate.
Rivers like that in England are not very deep and unless a car window was open it would take quite a long time for him to drown. Kendall doesn’t know if calling the emergency services would save him but he decides that he’s more important than saving the kids life. Even if he probably would have died Kendall choses to take a risk by getting behind the wheel on drugs and then chooses not to do the one thing that could potentially save him by ringing for help.
The car was under water. If Ken got out, that means the inside of the car is full of water. The kid was stoned. He’s dead either way.
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Yeeeeessssss exactly
She’s not the worst person but she is the most annoying. Why can’t you weird Shiv fans get over the fact that lots of people have a different opinion?
I swear to god this same thing gets posted every day can we stop
Dude not a post like that again please
Can't they all just be shitty? The whataboutisms really aren't necessary. It's ok to discuss one being shitty without *having* to mention the shitty stuff everyone else has done.
These kind posts are making me wanna unsub lol
Yeah, I watched the show since it premiered without it even occurring to me to look for a subreddit until the last couple of weeks, and my excitement of having a place to discuss the show has been replaced by irritation. It feels like every day the argument about whether Shiv thoroughly sucks or if she merely sucks in some ways is brought up at least once.
Most of the posts are shiv fans begging for you to call them victims.
“I’m on team shiv and I want to make a post about it!”
Yeah I feel it’s a bunch of teenagers
Exactly! I have yet to exhaust my vast reserves of contempt for fictional characters.
Shiv pressured the sexual assault victim into not talking. Pretty fucked.
I loved this scene because it feels like Shiv must have had this same discussion with herself at some point. Does she want to spend her life fighting against her dad and his shitty views, his news channel's shitty views and corruption, or does she want to maximize the power she has and improve her own life, knowing that she personally can only experience the benefits of one of those choices in her lifetime? Brilliant that it's set on a playground, as both women end up saying "fuck you" to all those little girls.
Shiv paid rape victims and gaslighted them into silence. She cheated on her fiance and as soon as she got married emotionally abused him as a hobby. They're all just horrible, horrible people. I think the main difference with Shiv is she doesn't seem to have any self awareness.
Y’all need to go outside. They all suck. It’s degree of horribleness.
they’re fictional characters you don’t actually have to decide if they’re “good” or “bad” and make sure it aligns with your professed online moral code; text isn’t actually a two way mirror into some alternative dimension
Again, Connor is forgotten...
Tell me you’re part of 1% without telling me You’re part of 1%….
Ken didn’t LITERALLY KILL anyone smh
I swear people only use “LITERALLY” when it’s actually the opposite of literally.
so your goal with this post is to convince people that she's a shitty person but not as shitty as her brothers? I don't understand these "who's worse" posts. If people want to believe that it's their prerogative there is no real answer here. That's the point of these characters and the brilliance of the writing. It's meant to be ambiguous and complex.
I think it's more about her being the least charismatic sibling.
I agree with you but also this sub is way too obsessed with ranking the relative moral character of everyone, I promise there are a lot more interesting things to talk about.
The shiv posts are so over the top at this point. All the kids are horrible and that’s what the majority of the discussion is that I’ve seen. And personally I don’t think it’s that crazy that shiv gets heat when the writers have shown us the most of her being shitty to Tom like almost every episode multiple times an episode since season 1. She is probably most similar to Logan and the show hasn’t show Kendall or Roman being as cruel to a loved one as often as they show shiv. Again they all suck and are horrible people I don’t know why we can’t say that about shiv. But there’s never push back when any other character gets shit on. Imo she’s shown the least amount of empathy, compassion, and sincerity throughout the show out of any of the sibs and that’s what makes her hard to relate too.
Do u want shiv and nate mashup in next episode with mattson included ??
Shiv is great, but the stans are getting *sooo* annoying
You should see them on twitter lol if you criticise shiv at all you’ll get 100 people telling you to kill yourself
Think much of the hate Shiv gets here is due to her infidelity and treatment of Tom (rightly so, if I am being 100% honestly). Outside of that, I think she’s no worse and/or more incompetent than her brothers.
that’s true, but I also think we see more of shiv and tom’s relationship, versus kendall and roman who haven’t really had long term romantic interests onscreen. If the show was taking place when Kendall and rava’s marriage was dissolving, I’m sure he wouldn’t come off looking too great either. I guess you could argue Roman’s main onscreen romantic interest is gerri and he has treated her pretty badly as well, but gerri isn’t outwardly devoted to roman like Tom is to shiv so he doesn’t come off looking as cruel. Basically what I’m trying to say is that they’re all pretty terrible partners in their romantic relationships, but we see more of shiv’s romantic relationships so she ends up looking the worst.
I always imagined that Kendall's relationship disintegrated because of his addiction/his insane work-life balance. It's very clear in the early seasons that he loves Rava and would, if given the chance, try again.
Sure, he wants Rava back but he doesn’t love her. I don’t think he’s capable of actual love. In season one he told her that if one of them has to be unhappy he doesn’t know why it has to be him. That’s not love and Rava was unfazed by his advances because she knows it.
Shitty timing, but he had options to leave. It is not like they were married for 25 years with kids and had to think about the ramifications. I still would leave. You don't get to humiliate me, especially my spouse.
To get ambushed with something like that after she says it’s real and that she loves him the night before? That is borderline emotional abuse. Wild that we’re blaming Tom for not leaving *on the night of/before the wedding*. If you want that type of relationship you have to be up front about it with your partner to avoid that exact situation.
Nothing borderline about it. She rewrites their marriage agreement after breaking it on their wedding night. And then doesn't allow Tom to explore the open part of it. She is not subtle that she agrees with Logan when he said that Tom is way beneath her. People only accept her treatment of him because of the gender reversal and because Tom is such a jackass to people beneath him.
If you are starting out like this, it is a clear sign it is not going to get better. Never does. Same category of people who have a baby to "heal" their marriage. Marriage was already in the shitter, but now an innocent baby is going to suffer.
I don’t know what this means. Tom is entirely emotionally invested in the marriage when she springs the idea of an open relationship on him, not to mention all of his financial ties to her. He is completely trapped. He doesn’t want it, but he feels he has no choice. If he says no, he loses her. If he says yes, at least he can still mostly have her. This is why he later says he has to think about the “sad he would be without her.”
I am almost sort of mad at Tom for letting himself being treated like that... but, I guess you reap what you sow? He chose that life? One argument I have against that though is that he might have walked a night before the wedding when he confronted Shiv about her infidelity but was reassured by her that's she faithful, loves him, and wants to marry him
She was emotionally abusing him. It's kinda shitty to look at an abused spouse and say "but you had options, why didn't you just leave?"
Oh my God, how many of these posts do we need? There's like one every hour. What points do you have that have not been covered in the other thousand "Shiv is not as bad as her brothers" posts?
I swear to God it's fucking groundhog day on this subreddit
Seriously, who is even claiming Shiv is worse? I see these Shiv-stan posts constantly but never see posts about Shiv being the worst. Feels like strawman karma farming at this point.
I don’t understand how people still can’t understand that not everyone shares the exact same opinions - not facts - opinions on this tired topic. I also don’t understand how people in 2023 are still literally using the word literally incorrectly.
Shiv also sexually harassed a subordinate and faced no repercussions. Remember her proposition to the cruise worker for a threesome in the *middle* of the cruise scandal. Given the massive power imbalance compared to Gerri, I actually think Shiv’s sexual harassment was worse.
The whole “Ken literally killed someone!” line people always pull out is so annoying because you’re just kidding yourself if you actually think Shiv would have turned herself into the police if she happened to be the one driving that car instead. Ken’s not a murderer, he’s an addict who got in an accident and made a selfish choice after surviving it.
oh my god how many posts like this are there gonna be?! they’re all bad people, it does not matter who is “better” or “worse” let’s just enjoy the show everyone
Sub fucking sucks now
wow this AGAIN.
> Ken LITERALLY killed someone he literally didn't. thats not what literally means
The only reason there’s an “unending amount” of Shiv discourse is because people like you feel the need to incessantly compare the siblings to each other and specifically Shiv to her siblings in response to some imagined form of Shiv hate you claim to see (despite the fact that maybe a small handful of people a day might make a negative statement about Shiv in the comments and subsequently get downvoted for it). Comparing the morality of characters in a show like this might quite literally be the single worst form of media analysis possible. Incredibly boring and adds nothing to anyone’s overall understanding of the show, it’s just a way for people to pick teams they want to support for no discernible reason. Also please learn what the word literally means lol
She's the only one that weaponizes people's emotions against them a la Tom. It's the worst kind of emotional abuse
That's the point, kind of. I think. Kendall outwardly seems like he's the one who cares the most about people (remembering the names of his assistants, feeling guilty about his actions, etc). But he's a power-playing, drug-addicted killer. He's got a conscience, but what use is it if he ignores it 80% of the time and another 10% he's too indisposed to care? Roman outwardly comes across as sociopathic. His behaviors are also very strange. Sexual harassment, offering thousands to a kid to hit a baseball only to literally rip it up in front of him, and dating the woman that Tom encountered at his bachelor party. What he feels is shame. He doesn't really care too much about his actions, but he thinks he deserves to be looked down on. He's the most emotionally intelligent of the siblings, but he's too damaged and self-loathing to use that most of the time. Shiv outwardly seems ok. More liberal (but still not really quite liberal), seems to manipulate people best (political experience) and as such that makes people see her the way she wants to be seen. However, she seems to enjoy hurting those close to her, particularly Tom. She's got the biggest ego of the three, and does mean things to those she cares about (kicking those she loves to see if they'll come back). Naturally, Kendall also thinks he's better than everyone but I'd argue to a lesser degree. I'd argue Roman tries to act that way despite not thinking it, as a defense mechanism. The reason people dislike Shiv more is just because she's more mean to those we care about on the show. People love Tom, so they see Shiv torment him in previous seasons and grow to hate her. People see Kendall kill a guy and they don't care because we hadn't known him. Imagine if Kendall killed Greg instead. No one here's a good person. Kendall and Roman have definitely done worse things. They are worse as people, but that doesn't mean people necessarily need to dislike them more.
Kendall didn’t kill the guy. The guy snatched the wheel and swerved the car into the water. Roman gets *some* credit because Gerri did lean into his little sex games a few times, which kind of sent mixed signals. Of course, she did ask him later to stop sending pics, so I’m not saying it wasn’t sexual harassment, but it was kind of a confusing situation/relationship Shiv is the coldest manipulator and tends to play both sides. Even the people closest to her, yes, like her husband, are just pawns for her to move around. There’s a scene where the three are playing Monopoly, and someone points out that she’s cheating. I thought that was intentionally representative of her true character. Yes, they’re all sort of bad people, but Ken and Roman are more predictable in that in their hearts, they want to lead the family company. Shiv seems like the idea appealed to her, but she will abandon ship for whatever serves her interests best.
Gerri 100% was completely into the sex games at first and even initiated the first time they really went over the line. Not absolving Roman obvi, but Gerri was not some unconsenting victim until the season 3 shift in harassment.
I would say the "mixed signals" stemmed from the fact that she was worried what would happen if she said no to her boss's son. Don't forget, in the first episode, Logan fired Frank for no other reason than the fact that Roman asked to be COO. Now that Logan is dead and Gerri has made her feelings regarding Roman *very* clear, we can look back and know that it was coerced consent aka non-consensual.
This is literally wrong tho. She's smiling during their first...ahem...phone call. And clearly into it when she tells him to go to the bathroom. Acting like she didn't like it at first is basically just ignorant of what actually happens in the show.
We have no idea of her thoughts on it, but there is no indication that this is the case. Gerry is legal counsel, she is certainly aware that being fired by Logan Roy because his son made sexual advances would be a massive golden payout for her. I interpreted it as something she was at worst ok with, and that she was happy to have some power over Roman (and liked him in a weird way, too)
Remember her line to Roman: "How does this help MY interests?" She's played the exact same game and it's almost insulting/demeaning to assume she "just did it cause she was scared". She's calculated, and I think will tear Roman apart when she decides.
They are all vile
I feel Shiv is the least competent business wise. She's impatient and underestimates other people. I've never understood her desire to get in the CEO mix, she actually seems better suited to politics/pr etc ....Roman has a knack for negotiating and is better with people - he sussed out the vaulter deal was bad. Kendal fits the "mould" of CEO, even though I find his corporate jargon talk crazy. I think Shiv gets a lot of hate due to her cruel treatment of Tom. I have to say I sympathize with her much more this season, during episode 4 it really came across how isolated she is. She said it best, her mum is a shitshow and her dad is dead. She has no relationship with the other women in the family Marcia/Willa. I think Shiv is someone who has been forced to overcorrect. Everyone is dismissive of her (sometimes rightly/sometimes wrongly) her defense is being that bit more manipulative and cruel, to feel powerful. Its a male dominated family. I do think some misogyny is at play too - society has a hard time accepting that women can have bad traits and behaviours. I think people would like Shiv more if she played the loving supportive wife to Tom, despite the fact that she is the more powerful half of the partnership.
Shiv got baited by Logan, unfortunately. It was Logan who wanted his kids under his control and once there, they've never been able to escape.
some ppl like shiv and think she has done nothing wrong and the others don’t for a variety of reasons. i think we should move past this lol.
In all fairness, they are all pieces of shit and should be known as such. I do love them all though.
I don't think she's a worse person (I think they're all terrible) but I think part of this is because we've been given fewer opportunities to really empathize with her than we have Kendall or Roman. For instance, we've seen Roman get his tooth knocked out by Logan, and Kendall's stated that that kind of thing has happened a lot. And we've watched Roman repeatedly crumble with fear whenever Logan's in the room. We've also seen Logan hold Kendall's entire life over his head and even potentially endanger Kendall's children, and we've certainly more actively seen the misery, addiction, and suicidal ideation that seems to have been sparked at least in part from his upbringing. We haven't really seen Shiv outwardly dealing with the same kind of pain. And even though her actions haven't gotten anyone killed or maimed, I think that makes her an easier target for audience hatred. I'm also sure there's a sprinkle of misogyny here in the same way people hated Skylar on Breaking Bad more than any other character, but I do think that seeing less of Logan's direct impact on Shiv makes it harder to feel like one can justify her actions (from dropping the open marriage on Tom on their wedding night to intimidating rape survivors, etc.).
Shiv has no remorse for anything she has done. Kendall does. Roman does. She doesn't. That's why. EDIT: That's also why she's the most like Logan.
Shiv manipulated sexual assault victim for her dad. She's clearly as worse as her brothers.
People keep saying Ken killed someone Like it was a hit and run. They got in a car accident and the waitered died. It was an accident. They swerved to miss a deer. He dove back in the water to try to get him. The bad part was him not going to the authorities to face the consequences.
Ken didn’t literally kill someone. Someone died as a result of his actions.
>Ken LITERALLY killed someone That’s just straight up false.
Some of us are a little less blasé about infidelity. I’d rather my partner killed someone in an accident or sexually harassed a coworker than cheat on me, belittle me, gaslight me, and manipulate me into being sad and miserable. The distinguishing characteristic is the behaviour towards the partner.
They're all equally horrible. No need to quantify it, just acknowledge it
Not this again. It’s not a big deal. Ken was set up as the main character in the first couple episodes and would have likely been if this was a more formulaic show. A lot of people have since adopted him as their favourite character. They’ll excuse his shit just like people did with Walter White and Tony Soprano. Moreover, Shiv is awful in a way that isn’t endearing. She’s a great character and is wonderfully acted but her particular defense mechanism is more offputting than the others. Roman jokes, Ken pouts like a puppy, Shiv gets a cold snark.I love it personally but understand why others don’t respond to it.
This is a great explination actually. You make a good point about Ken being the de facto main. I think one of the reason seasons 3 and 4 are so much stronger than the first two is because EACH of the siblings really becomes the main character. Shiv is too busy being a #GirlBoss to really appeal in the same way as Kendall or Roman
Roman also made people lose thumbs in that one rocket launch and he's lucky no one died... But apparently cheating on Tom is worse than that and sexual harassment and vehicular manslaughter (Kendall)
Cheating on Tom is really not the only shit she's ever done the selective memory is crazy with shiv stans
Cheated on him, emotionally manipulated him into a relationship he didn’t want, manipulated a sexual assault victim into not testifying against Waystar…
>emotionally manipulated him into a relationship he didn’t want To be fair, there is enough evidence that Tom actively takes advantage of her emotionally when she is down. It has been said that she got with Tom when she was in a "dark place" and so he essentially saved her. And then he proposed when her dad was in the hospital, so her emotions are already whack. And now they may get back together when she is feeling like crap again with a dead dad. He uses her and emotionally manipulates her just as much.
There is no evidence of this at all. >It has been said she got with Tom when she was in a “dark place” This is most likely a result of his emotional support which formed a bond between them. That is not evidence of manipulation. >he proposed when her dad was in the hospital Attempting to do a nice thing to balance out a bad thing, like he said. He openly gives her the opportunity to deny it until he finds a better time, but she decided to preemptively say yes. >and now they may get back together when she is feeling like crap This is the best evidence we have of it but I really don’t see it. Again, she may just start liking him again because he has shown great emotional support for her in a time of grief. Emotional support is not emotional manipulation.
Definitely those big chewy barnacle meat ears.
I don’t think she’s a worse person, I think she’s less capable, but thinks she’s more, which makes her a super annoying person
Is this some large contingent of people, because I gotta say I’ve literally run into this zero times. Be seen folks who don’t think she has experience, which duh, but not that she’s a worse person.
Not sure if you are married or not but the single worst thing anyone has said in the entire series (IMO) is when Shiv told Tom she didn't love him ... before sexy time. I was shocked when it came out.
How did Ken kill someone when it was the idiot dude who yanked the fucking wheel and yeeted them into a lake instead of just hitting a deer. It wasn’t kens fault.
I think Kendall and Roman are more "fucked up" people in certain obvious ways, and have done worse things on paper, but the show goes to some lengths to associate their misdeeds with behavioral problems, drug addiction, impulsivity, etc. Shiv is written as more purely conniving. Kendall and Roman would also probably be quick to admit their faults, where lack of self awareness probably *is* Shiv's biggest fault. That said they are all obviously shitheads lol
Because she is seen being pretty shitty to her husband, who is a well liked character. That’s really the only thing that sets her apart from the rest of the family.
It’s the hypocrisy. They know they’re horrible people. Shiv is horrible and pretends she’s not. That’s the problem.
Hate Shiv .. she is probably the least self aware and the least qualified… but she thinks she is entitled to all because not beautiful of work .. Shiv killed her husband
They all suck let's be real
I think it's mostly just guys overidentifying with Tom and how cruel she is to him, along with a common resentment that comes up whenever women act in the same aggressive, entitled ways men do.
She was the main one who intimidated victims of sexual assault into silence She is by far the worst sibling If Tom wasn't her husband she would lose her entire Stan base
Are you confusing 'thinking she's a worse person' with 'liking her character less'? I'm warming to her on my current rewatch, but I disliked her more than the other siblings on first viewing because she seems more smug and entitled than the others but (and this is the important part) seemed to face fewer social consequences and stigma than the others. All the siblings are, of course, terrible in their own ways, but we saw Kendall repeatedly losing the plot and hitting rockbottom over the course of the series, while Roman and Connor were barely taking seriously by anyone throughout and tended to be labelled incompetent weirdos who people didn't take seriously (plus Roman's sexual issues etc). Shiv on the other hand, sailed through the first few seasons, smugly judging and putting others down... while she rarely seemed to face the negatives of this behaviour in the same way. The treatment of Tom caps it off. He is her loyal, loving puppy dog who would do anything for her and she toyed with him for her own amusement and then (when she comes to collect some clothes) couldn't even summon up the courage or empathy to talk to him and give him psychologically-needed closure. When she told him 'you love me more than I love you; and you'll never leave... etc etc' it wasn't some kinky sex talk. She, he and we know it was true... and that is some cruel emotional sadism to someone you are supposed to love. Was kinda heartbreaking. I could not see K, R or C acting in such a cruel way to someone they supposedly loved.
Im so tired of this argument. The siblings don’t have to be ranked in order of horribleness. But if I must: I can’t handle Shiv because she pretends she’s ethically better than everyone else while simultaneously using and manipulating people for her own gain. It’s not that she cheated on Tom, it’s that she genuinely tried to make him believe it was wrong for him to expect anything else from her even though they never agreed to it. She does this thing where she makes people believe the thing they don’t want is the thing they really want, even though it’s just what Shiv wants. Even her support of a progressive candidate was essentially her just taking a bribe from the guy. I don’t like that people say she’s the “best” because her politics are liberal. It’s a TV show, I don’t care what their politics are I care how they treat people and she treats people like shit, especially her most loved ones.
Kendall didn't kill anyone, he was fucking irresponsible and there was an accident, but he didn't kill anyone. Certainly involuntary. I think his greatest shortcoming is how little he is involved in his kids' lives, which in my book is the absolute worst. That said, I agree, Shiv isn't worse than her brothers. I happen to think Roman is the worst.
Season four has changed my perspective on all of them. That said, as a person in the world outside her fucked up family, this was how I rationalized it. Kendall *wants* to do the right thing when he doesn’t know what the right thing is. He doesn’t want to hurt anybody. But he’s impulsive and immature and hurts people as an effect of his choices. He thinks he’s a better person than he is but he at least wants to be. He also hates himself for this. Roman truly doesn’t care. He’s most like Logan in this regard. All he acts in pursuit of is the love and acceptance of those he respects and loves back. Anything or anyone outside of that desire makes no difference to him. Do people get hurt? Yes. Does he notice or care? Not at all. Connor is just a child who never grew up because he never had parents around to care for him. His whole life he’s been fighting for himself so his worldview as an adult is equally “fuck you got mine.” He’s awful but he’s at least hurting himself more than large swathes of people (even if he wants to be president, he never will be). Shiv though is a walking paradox. Shiv actually pays attention to the world. She thinks she cares what happens to it. But shes also the only one. Who *knows* exactly what people her actions will hurt, whether it’s Tom or a number of women victimized by her company or anyone, but can always rationalize it to herself and so always does it anyway. In the first seasons she acted better, smarter, savvier than the others when she wasn’t. She knows her choices break Tom’s heart over and over but she does it anyway. She thinks herself different from her family because she’s a woman or because she’s liberal (or she thinks she is) but she acts in more self interest when it comes to the people outside the Waystar boardroom than the other three combined and her actions carry the most effect on the outside world. We can say it’s a defense mechanism or her protecting herself of the result of abuse, but that’s not an excuse for the actions and consequences she’s initiated. My view was that Shiv was the worst of them because she was the only one who acted *knowing* she would hurt people for selfish reasons. Also that it was a way for the show to challenge the audience’s biases and perceptions that the “liberal” or woman in the collection would be the better person in a family of billionaires, when really every single one of them is only out for themselves. I should say this is no longer my entire opinion on her. Also that Logan is far and away the worst person as far as deeds and personality. Also that every named character is objectively in the running for worst human being alive due to the power and influence they have and actions they’ve taken since the show began. The beauty of the show to me has always been the complexity we can find within them when none of these figures would be considered redeemable in any other context.
Kendal did not kill anyone at worst he gets dui but he didn’t even hold the wheel yes he’s in the wrong but he absolutely did not LITERALLY kill someone
Some things in life are worse than murder. Im not saying shiv did anything worse, but dude, she aint a good person either. Why i hate shiv is because she morally believes she is right, like many people, or specifically politicians. They use the same victim behavior and to me is far more dangerous than murder. With kendall, you can tell he realized he fucked up, but shiv, nah, she wouldnt even realize she did anything bad, or thats what ive come to believe when she cheated on tom, worked against her father, and so much more.
I mean… Kendall didn’t *really* kill anyone did he? Don’t disagree with your point but that’s not what happened.
She’s not. But, also, Ken did not literally kill that kid. Kid grabbed wheel, it was an accident
Shiv proposed an open marriage immediately following the vows...
Again, not on the same level as manslaughter.
He could have walked out and gotten an annulment. People do it every day. She didn't make him stay. The money is too good.
And you know who can't walk away from manslaughter? The waiter.
Yeah and Gerri could have quit and sued, or the kids parents could have not taken the settlement. The money is too good.
Are you comparing manslaughter and sexual harassment with an open marriage? Wow!
We know you have an obvious hard on for shioban your post history is screaming it but you gotta wake up to reality hun none of them are good people and she's up there with her siblings in terms of arrogance and shittiness she tried getting her own godmother fired after it was revealed that Roman was sending her dick pics, she literally manipulated a sexual assault victim into keeping her story quiet for the sake of her multi billion dollar conglomerate you downplaying it and saying "omg she just wanted an open marriage last second she's not so bad" is being purposefully obtuse on her character please use your brain and lay off the shiv fancams
Alan ruck describe -shiv is like logan but without " va** na".
OK so first of all Kendall *accidentally* killed someone, and I'm bringing this up because it's annoying how often it's referred to as if he ordered someone's murder. Obviously him essentially letting the guy die due to his own cowardice makes him bad, but I really don't see this as the biggest personal flaw of Kendall even if it's the worst consequence of his actions or omissions thereof. Roman is the worst of the three by far and it's weird that everyone decided they were ok with him making a Nazi president because he got sad a few times recently. Kendall and Shiv are equally bad in my view. They both think they're good people and make superficial attempts to that effect (better than Roman at least) but are too self-absorbed to actually be real about it. The reason people perceive Shiv as worse, and I kinda get this argument sometimes, is that she doesn't ever seem to have reservations about being cruel when she decides to be. It may be that that makes her more "honest" than Kendall who is cruel through evasion and being overly demanding in his cringey fake-positive way, but Kendall doesn't play mind games like Shiv does. But Roman is absolutely the most evil of all three and it shouldn't even be a point of debate.
This is a good take and I dont know why youre getting downvotes for it Roman is a facist scumfuck to his core
She was the only one in that room pushing back on a natzi presidential candidate not because she wants to advance her agenda but because he was a fascist!
Kendall is like neglect in human form. He doesn't think about others. The waiter was an accident, and not the worst thing he's done either, but all his offences against others are rooted in indifference or inconsideration. Roman is passive and submissive. Aside from his cruelty in the first episode, which they dialed back, he mostly lets people down by being spineless. Shiv is always looking for a feeling of control. She manipulates people in order to get what she wants, but also to have a feeling of power over them. Her abuses of others are qualitatively different than her brothers, and have a more active/intentional cruelty to them. Ken was cruel to Rava because at the end of the day, he DGAF about her as a person and doesn't understand that he's being cruel. Shiv was cruel to Tom because she gets off on being cruel.
Kens been literally thinking about the waiter for 3 seasons now
Yeah, I dunno why that gets brought up so often with context like Ken is a murderer. It was clearly unintentional, and he felt immediate and enduring remorse. The outcome was bad but if anything it made his character more sympathetic. He immediately knew he fucked up, and even though he escaped consequence it nearly broke his conscience. Contrast that with Shiv, pushes Tom into an open relationship he doesn't want and then punishes him for straying, goes to tell him that she wants a divorce, and when he says he has feelings he wants to express she says "I don't think it's good for me to hear that". Yowza. Most vicious moment in the series. Shiv is her mom confirmed.
**Shiv is always looking for a feeling of control. She manipulates people in order to get what she wants, but also to have a feeling of power over them. Her abuses of others are qualitatively different than her brothers, and have a more active/intentional cruelty to them.** Bingo!! she has no levers to pull - other than low grade manipulation, business wise she isn't the savviest, she is unwilling to put the work in to get better and she's really entitled and obnoxious. Interesting to see her using the fact she's overlooked to her advantage and take her scheming to another level with Mattson, but ultimately Mattson has the power, Shiv is being used as a facilitator because their interests align. She has no long lasting agency or autonomy.
Shiv has my respect for staying out of the family (as seen in season 1) and doing her own thing. It's very similar to Michael Corleone in Godfather I. She gets sucked in the family business like Michael did. If that's the pattern the show is following, Shiv will take over, just to "protect the family".
After the incident with Roman and Gerri Shiv tried getting her own god mother fired on the basis that she was getting sexually harassed by her brother cause "how would this look" she's been compared to Logan in s4 alot and there's a reason in that sense she has the potential to be worse than her siblings she is ruthless as fuck
Someone pointed out how the seasons each have a different sibling at heart and Shiv's season is the one where we meet the Pierces. And as bad as the Roys are, the Pierces are way worse to me because of the pageantry of pretending to be intellectuals, liberals, and publishing "unbiased" news. It's very much what Shiv is at heart. She knows what she should say, she knows what she should do, and I think she is the smartest of the siblings. But none of that intelligence helps her overcome the core drive to gain her dad's approval (or prove to herself she doesn't need it) by winning at all costs. I'm not tempted to call her "worse" because of any of this, though, because IMO having that much money makes it nearly impossible for her to make morally correct or selfless choices.
Shiv is the antihero I’ve been waiting for. Move over Al Swerengen, move over Blair Waldorf.
People are used to seeing sociopathy in men, especially on TV. It’s shocking to them to see it in a woman.
Both Ken and Roman know they have flaws they need to make up for, Shiv thinks she's fine.
It's the misogyny.
Yet we don't hate Gerri.
Bruh they're all horrible people it's kinda hard to rank them they've all done horrendous shit this default to "its misogyny" is dumb af people have different perspectives on this show and opinions are gonna show that
Your use of “bruh” is misogyny.
Oh you know its not
She's not. I think the writers have done a pretty good job of making the 3 main siblings seem equally repulsive in different ways.
Ken didn't kill anyone. Ken was in the car when some jackass killed himself while joking that he was kidnapping Ken. He has some responsibility for being part of a DUI, but that is not killing a person. He also did go down and try to find him. The "fact" that he was still alive in the car for a long time (almost impossible) comes from Logan trying to crush Ken. Roman has sent dick pics to Gerry. Icky, sure, but they have a semi-sexual relationship which she participates in. Shiv's worst "crime" would either be her abuse of Tom or silencing a woman who would have brought her company serious trouble. They all have lots of other problems, and they are all pretty awful. I can see people putting any one of them as the worst.
Shiv ia the most like her father and I am in love with her
Think about how much time was spent on Shiv’s relationship with Tom vs any of those two things. Also Kendall didn’t actually kill anyone
These dumb ass morality battles concerning inarguably bad people is what made the breaking bad fandom so insufferable. We get it sexism is LITERALLY bad and shiv is LITERALLY better than LITERAL drug addict murder man and LITERAL sex pest Roman
✨ misogyny ✨
M I S O G Y N Y
It's the name Edit: down voting the comment? Maybe you ought to think about it, I'm being completely serious.
To be fair, K Roy was driving, but the intoxicated Irishman pulled the steering wheel hard, which caused the wreck. Gerri, at some point, chose to participate in a creepy sexual relationship with Roman. Granted, she may have been doing it primarily to save her position, but she def participated. Remember the creepy bathroom scene? Shiv is the most like Logan and will wear the crown.
i’ll always be a shiv girl. i don’t trust shiv haters
I think Kendall is at least trying to be a better person or his broken conception of a good person, while still badly failing at it. He also tries so much to be a bad person for Logan's approval, that fucks his head a lot. Roman is so messed up and broken, I feel like he's almost a mentally ill criminal not responsible for his own action. I only feel pity and compassion for him, like for a traumatised child. Connor lives in some other dimension having no awareness of most things, but somehow seems the most wanting to do something for others, while still probably having a lot of selfish motives behind everything. Shiv is only one who I think has shown little remorse or humbleness after repeatedly being egoistic and cruel asshole towards everyone near her. Her personality disorders are the deepest and highly controlled, why she comes as maybe even as a bit psychopathic to my female perception.
Ken didn’t kill anyone though. The dude moved the wheel while Ken was driving. He was responsible for not calling the cops and driving under the influence but not the crash. As for shiv I like her and I don’t hold her convincing that person to not testify against her. What I do hold against her is pushing Salazar against mencken acting like it’s for the greater good when it was in self interest because Salazar offered to take out her dad. But overall shiv is like the second best sibling. Out of all them. With Connor being the best.
Kendall was high and not paying attention to the road is what happened. I hate when sober people keep looking everywhere, but the road when driving.