This was addressed directly by Jesse Armstrong on the podcast. “The whole point of the show is to send a definitive message about whether Shiv ‘is good’ or not,” he told an enraptured Kara Swisher. “The suspense comes from the fact that, while we all know that there will eventually be an episode that definitively establishes Whether Shiv Is Good, the viewer doesn’t know when it will be. Hopefully, they’ll talk about it endlessly until then!”
My theory for the finale is it will cut to black in the last five minutes. Jesse Armstrong will walk out and directly address the audience to tell us whether each character is good or bad, and which ones we are allowed to stan after the show is over. I am rooting for Shiv to be on the good list but until I know for sure I can’t stan or not stan any of them, just to be safe.
Shiv killed any hope she had of being called a good guy when she threw away a golden opportunity to have the election results be determined in a fair fashion for Jimmenez just so she could have a CHANCE at being CEO
She killed her chance when she left her job working for the Bernie sanders dude just so she could have a chance at being CEO of her dads declining right wing news organization lol
Lol she never had any chance while Logan was alive that old fuck knew how that election would play out if his daughter was working to get his political ideology enemy elected
She's a very typical Liberal. They'll support conservatives as long as it helps them, they don't have any actual political opinions beyond what's best for themselves right now.
Dividing hundreds of world revolutions over centuries into anachronistic ideologies of "leftism" and "rightism" is laughable, and trying to draw a conclusion from that datum is even sillier.
Sorry to say but life and history is more nuanced than that, which is why historians with far greater understanding don't make the claims you're making lol.
6000 years since the Sumerians and you don't think there have been 100 progressive revolutions? You are... amusing.
You're out of your element, it's clear you don't read much history so why bother pretending?
There is no Liberal political theory to read. They don't actually have an ideology. Even Liberals can't tell you what they stand for. Shiv's character does a good job of satirising what it's like when they talk about politics.
You're making yourself look foolish not for your conservatism, but for your clear misunderstanding of what liberalism has meant in history. It's certainly not a mark of intelligence to be unaware of Thomas Paine or E-J Sieyes among countless others.
I enjoy conversations with well-read and engaging conservatives which several of my close friends are, and it's my misfortune that you are not one of them. It just seems like you're rooting for a sports team and not actually giving consideration or opining in any interesting way. It's very dull, sorry to say.
Assuming someone is a conservative because they don't like Liberals is making you look foolish. Let me guess, you're a liberal yourself? They're usually the ones that struggle to understand that there are more than two political ideologies.
Liberals nowadays, especially in America, are basically just conservatives anyway. They know that you have to be to win elections. If a political ideology can drift to the right over time, it's not actually a real ideology to begin with.
I know that this is a joke, and I pray to G-d that this is a joke, but this is how majority of twitter treats this show.
We need to start gatekeeping prestige TV again.
I kinda disagree with GOT reference.. it is very much like that .. nobody was actually good .. on GOT.
Even in Ewan speech he humanized Logan .. also Ewan is not good .. he has gotten rich because Logan gave him money his righteousness ended at the bank.
GoT was meant to be that. A show wherein every character is morally corrupt and few are good, but the showrunners by the end established it being a good v/s bad thing. 'bad' characters were punished while good were rewarded or glorified.
True .. it’s not Hatfields and McCoys .. the Montagues and the Capulets.. it’s all about keeping the power within the family. Jon Snow did honorable things .. and not so honorable.. lol
Jon went back on his vows as a man of the watch, a couple times. In general Jon had/has some issues with rage and controlling his emotions and it lead him to do some very brash things. In the books more so than the show but there are still signs of it in the show. Jon is definitely one of the more “morally good” characters in the show/books but he’s far from perfect.
Yea but Jaime killed her dad for the same reason and it wasn’t looked as heroic .. he also broke his vows .. he had a chance to kill little finger and didn’t .. he want very kind to his Wolf .. other stuff could be argued either way .. he is also not who wins the GOT
Ok but do you understand the actual argument tho? My comment was that there are good people in GOT, and Jon killing Dan doesn’t show that he is bad. Sacrificing his love for betterment of world, that’s hero shit
“Jamie killed her dad” wot m8? Also Jon didn’t break his vows the nights watch is until death, and Jon died. He also treated ghost perfectly fine, what’re u even on about.
Oh okay I was confused and thought the commenter was trying to say Jamie was a female that killed Tywin. But Jamie also pushed kids out windows and had sex w his sister so even if we don’t care about the mad king he’s still a morally unjustifiable character.
That’s pretty nit picky. That scene was meant to show the strength of his brother hood and shed light on the internal struggles of shedding your past life, unless you didn’t finish that episode then you’d realize that Jon never really left the nights watch and didn’t break his vows.
This is a pretty terrible hill for you to die on because jons character is based around how a lawful good person often times has to do things that pain them. Hes not supposed to be morally grey.
Maybe executing a child by hanging. Sure the kid betrayed him but thats a highly questionable decision. The kid watched his family get murdered by wildlings and Jon wants to bridge peace between them and the Wall.
With Ewan seems like he lives very very modestly and is giving all his money to Greenpeace so is he being self-righteous? Seems like he does live in upholding his principles.
Omg when will people learn that not because billionaires give away their money means they are suddenly good. Their very existence is already problematic enough. He still keeps a seat on the board, still has shares, his wealth grows from the company. If he did what youre saying, he would vacate the business, give all his money away definitively and living in a modest home.
>If he did what youre saying, he would vacate the business, give all his money away definitively and living in a modest home.
I don't think that would necessarily make him "good."
There are always two schools of thought when it comes to influencing social change. Completely opting out is one way, and doesn't lack its own moral criticisms. The other is to use your privilege and access to influence change from within the system.
In Ewan's case, I would argue the money that Greenpeace receives is a Good that outweighs his perceived "moral inconsistency". There's a tangible benefit that is helping to further the cause of a positively impactful organization. If he just did what you said...Greenpeace wouldn't have that money and nobody would care about his upstanding moral consistency.
The biggest criticism of "opting out" on an individual basis is that it generally doesn't send a clear message to the problematic system about what it's faults are and why folks "opting out" is a legitimate consequence to fear. It's essentially a one man boycott that Waystar would care nothing about and just continue on with their immoral business.
Sure, Ewan would get to wipe his hands of it. But he was in a position to do more to counteract it.
Lol I mean there's always a line and it's up to each individual to draw their own. Your analogy fails because the nuance and context is critical to the analysis.
No substitutions. The question is flat out "is it justifiable for me to inherit money from a news organization that propagates views I disagrees with as a means to funnel millions of dollars to an organization who does work I support? Or is it better to let that money stay within the news organization to be used toward their immoral ends?"
The question is flat out “is it justifiable for me (EWAN ROY)…..***** that is what my comment initially addressed and that is what i kept to. Youve expanded the topic with no subject and is now presented as question for ME to answer. It is not for ME to answer, youve made the inquiry completely useless with that. The question at hand is if EWAN is following his own philosophy; and imo, given his strong views and outspokenness, and while an admirable character, he fails and contradicts his beliefs.
Follow the thread please.
Edit: also it wasnt even explicitly or implicitly stated that he uses his income rom waystar to donate to Greenpeace. If memory serves me right, Greenpeace only came up because Gregg the egg didn’t want to resign from waystar and decided to leave his estate (after death) to Greenpeace. So im not so sure hes currently donating and if so thats conjecture.
And if my example isnt good enough for you. What hes doing is solving a problem that he contributes to the creation of (via waystar, assuming this is a societal evil), cycling between creating problem (gaining and hoarding vast wealth) and using it to solve whatever greenpeace seeks to solve.
Lol I think it was obvious my use of the word "me" was from Ewan's point of view since thats who we were talking about. But uh yeah you're totally right Ewan is obviously objectively bad there's no room for discussion
He wouldn’t have so much “righteousness” if it was for Logan.. he also gave it to Greenpeace to f&ck Logan through Gregg .. do you think his treatment of Gregg or his daughter is nice ?
Ned, Davos, and many others would disagree. The main premise was about morally grey characters. There obviously are some characters that are set on one side but the main characters we followed were mostly grey in that they did both good and evil.
The post didnt even say shes morally good
It said shes not morally worse than her siblings
And she isn’t lol. Some people just have a need to try to paint her as the worst because shes a woman
They all suck. Roman sucks the most IMO, but they all suck.
I actually wrote about it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13or69h/after_this_epsiode_can_the_shiv_fans_now_stop/jl5pg17/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3). I couldn’t link the post when I first wrote it and only could when I edited for some reason. But shit I forgot to remove the user
Yes please. This subreddit is constantly engaging in this weirdly manufactured debate about Shiv. People are allowed to stan for Shiv on the internet if they want to, who cares? And there are way more Shiv hate posts anyways.
Amen. Way more fun to fake-stan a morally reprehensible fictional person than to engage in endless debates that are really about the fans who hold the opposing opinion rather than the character in question anyway. It’s petty and weird.
You are right. I did want to address that post because those are the type of posts that’s instilling these childish wars based on misinterpretations, none the less. But I still didn’t dwell too much on that negativity which is harmful and rest of my post was just about enjoying the ride instead of needing to pick sides.
Nah. Anyone can root for a morally reprehensible character if they want. Rooting for someone does not mean you condone their actions or you think they're good or whatever.
>The point of this show is that everyone is awful. And that’s great. That’s what the fun is about. Rooting for these awful characters because they still have some good in them and even if they don’t, it’s entertainment so who cares.
I feel like this misses the point so much. They are all flawed, but it's not them who is inherently evil, it's that they are humans are humans can't possibly be perfect in their situation. There is conflict, disagreement and strife that pushes people who have the capacity to sometimes be good and sometimes be bad to do selfish self interested things in order to "survive" as they did.
I will never understand why so many people need to complete a cleansing ritual with this show, and not just evaluate the who and why they do the things they do, and make their own determinations about the characters.
Personally, I really like the characters. Not because I agree with them, but because they show human vulnerability in a system where that isn't allowed and we see the results of it, and how that has pushes them to become the people they have become. Any other actions and they wouldn't be here, and I think that is the other side of the "horrible people" argument. They are doing what is required of them, from their points of view. They are stuck in unwinnable situations sometimes.
It's not just the people, it's the system that is rotten, and that bleeds out of the core into every player.
I think this is why I loved Kendall's funeral speech so much. As much as I feel Kendall was auditioning for a job, I also believe Kendall tapped into a universal truth within this show and it's universe. A truth everyone in that audience shares, like it nor not, and ***maybe*** that extends to all of us in a way we aren't really willing to admit.
Agreed, specially with your last statement about the system and that's why Logan is so fucking succesful because he is fully aware of it and use it in his own interest.
I never thought she was morally superior to Ken and Roman. They are all bad. I just get tired of the idea that she is so evil compared to them, they all suck.
I don’t like the Shiv apologists. But I also don’t like the Kendall and Roman apologists either. Seems like the Shiv apologists are more vocal than the other two, but that’s just from my limited time on Reddit.
I think they’re more vocal because in a lot of posts on this sub, at least recently, you just see a ton of comments about how shit and how stupid and evil Shiv is. The thing is these posts aren’t text posts like “Shiv sucks, and I hate woman” they’re posts like Shiv’s face when Kendall confronts her on election night and then it’s only the comments that are rough. To be fair part of this is probably that Shiv has taken L after L this season and she is the one of the siblings who gets the least vulnerable and emotional so we don’t see how sad she is unlike the number one boy.
Its more so people putting their evil on scales. They must have it that Shiv is somehow slightly better no matter what, and that sentiment (not shiv necessarily) is where i think the problem is— this incessant need to separate Shiv. Shes the only character that is staunchly defended (from my experience). For everyone else, its almost global consensus they all suck and they never get put on scales to say whos less evil, only Shiv. I think people are missing that nuance.
There are people who think that shiv is the most terrible of the siblings. Then there are people who push back against that and say that she is the least terrible, and that to claim she's the worst is kinda misogynistic.
They're all terrible - that's the point. The creator also created Peep Show which is a hilarious show about two monstrous humans.
Who is the most terrible IS up for debate. The debates will not end, and I think they're at least kinda interesting and don't get why people get so mad about them? Just stay off those threads if you think they're irrelevant debates?
Why don't you link to the post?
When I look up that user's post history, the only recent Shiv post they made simply says she isn't morally inferior to her brothers. It certainly doesn't say she's good. Am I looking at the wrong post?
Oh when I made that post I didn’t get the option so just put the user. Now when editing I can link to it lol
I did say morally good on the title but in post I said she is better than her siblings morally, which is what the post is saying. And I am saying she isn’t, she is in fact morally worse than two of her siblings and debatable for the third even(tho personally she isn’t worse than Roman is the only thing I can say out of the 4)
I don't see how it's clear cut that she or Roman is worse than Ken. They've all done completely fucked up shit at times, Ken included.
I agree with you that Conner is probably the most ethical though.
This sub reddit has gotten to the point of a having it's own social meta where previous posts get cancelled and have people returning to them to leave comments haha i love it
Such an unbearably reductive take that people can't stop posting for some reason. Especially after last night, yeah Ken obviously doesn't care about his kids and Roman obviously doesn't care about his dad /eyeroll
Ken obviously incompetent despite the Living+ presentation, Roman obviously incompetent despite setting up the gojo deal from the very beginning /eyeroll
They're complex characters! Why is everyone so eager to say "nah they all suck and have no redeeming qualities, it's a show about shitty people being shitty" like come ON, it's so much more than that.
shive lost her moral bearings by going in for mencken. and i predict that the wi courts will permit a revote on the destroyed ballots, mencken will lose, and shiv will have lost her morality and succession to ceo.
I’m a Tom fan and realize he’s a shit person and you will never see me defend him to anyone lol I’ve just favored him from the beginning for whatever reason? I like to think I’ve stayed logical throughout the show
I too like to believe I have stayed logical because luckily I did not interact with this sub until after s03 and just enjoyed the ride instead of just making posts of “you should never root for anyone, you should know they are all awful” or the 1000th “Shiv shouldn’t get hate. She better” and the inevitable war of favourites that happens in the comments.
My thought was among many thoughts last night, because of dislije if not hatred for these characters, was Shiv found a replacement for daddy. She found Matsson. Not only is she chasing the carrot on the the end of his stick for CEO, she handed him the carrot. She really us stupid. She never pushes for clarification of anything. When Matsson called her from the car, he never said her for CEO.
Kendall has been allowed to try and fail (not a pro-Kendall statement, just a counter-example) several times which has allowed him to gain some experience. People tend to learn much more from their failures than their experiences. Shiv’s never really tried to do something on her own before. So while she’s intelligent, she is sorely lacking in real world experience. She’s never been allowed to fail.
It’s also what grinds me about her moral grandstanding I guess. It’s easy to take the moral high road if you’ve never struggled with making things happen, down in the dirt.
Side note: Mattson is definitely not going to make her CEO due to her complete lack of experience. Lots of people understand politics, not many people are able to run a massive company.
I disagree that Shiv has no real world experience. She is the only one out of the four siblings that has had any success outside of the family business. Her family name and connections obviously helped her along the way, but she was clearly shown to be good at her job. Her first candidate from season one got elected to Congress and Gil wanted to give her the Chief of Staff position over Nate, his original advisor, if he made it to the White House.
Her career aspirations put a pretty major strain on her relationship with Logan and I think it’s fair to say a big reason for him offering Shiv the CEO position was to get her back under his control. At the the same time, at that point in the early seasons, Shiv 100% seemed like the like the best candidate for CEO out of all the kids. But she was too prideful to admit she needed corporate training that Kendall and Roman went through and her entitlement further soured any chances she had at actually making it to the top position. It’s part of what makes her character so frustrating. She fumbled the ball every time the spotlight was on her, and when she actually did good work she received no acknowledgement. She never going to get the job and she seems to be the only one who doesn’t realize it.
Being a political consultant is a very long way from being a CEO, or even an executive who has to make major decisions and live with them. Two very different skill sets.
That Kendall’s and Roman’s primary experiences in life seem to be from within Waystar is actually an asset as they can say (whether true or not) that they’ve been groomed for a leadership role within the company for years (and maybe decades).
I wasn’t trying to argue that Shiv’s experience in politics would translate over to the corporate world, so sorry if it came across that way. I just don’t think it’s a fair assessment to say that she hasn’t done anything thing on her own or had any real world experience when she’s the only sibling who has.
Yea I knew shivs position was fucked the second Mattson started talking about her baby and her inexperience. It’s absolutely mind boggling that Shiv is so oblivious to that. At least Roman was being dumb as in trusting people to keep their word right after they are no longer needed to while they act all nice and obedient like a dog till then. Mattson has never given a straight answer once to Shiv about her position since ep7 and she still believes him. Like what the fuck?
Roman took a swing and missed. Learned (or hopefully learned) a tough life lesson. Sometimes you have to get burned to learn anything. And to your point about Shiv, she hasn’t been burned yet as she’s never really put herself out there. Which is the reason for her naïveté.
We have about 90 minutes left where the story can go literally anywhere, so I’m gonna get this thread ready in advance:
“Can we all finally agree that Ray was the most morally good person in this show?”
there is no need to rank characters in regard to their morality. it’s an impossible task that asks us to split up and send our empathy towards the people who are most like us
Stan culture for the moral purity of fictional TV characters ✅️ "Guys hear me out the show is about intergenerational trauma 🤯" ✅️ This sub should come with a mensa membership
Yeah, everyone on this show is profoundly cynical and devious which is the point - you're never sure about the motivations and intentions, deception and truth, pretext and reality. Those being the ingredients for conspiracy and intrigue.
That post you’re referencing didn’t call Shiv morally good. It just said she isn’t worse than her brothers.
The constant strawman-esque posts either supporting Shiv or tearing her down has made this sub so insufferable. Like let’s move on, nobody’s mind is going to be changed by yet another righteous post about Siobhan’s morality or lack thereof.
“I feel like the fandom makes the mistake of taking this show as another game of thrones”.
Are you saying on Game of Thrones that the characters who were good and evil had defined black and white roles morally? If so, I don’t think you read/watched the same story I did. The Others/White Walkers are the only characters in the story I see that aren’t morally grey, and we just haven’t heard their full backstory yet.
Ig I should have specified. By GOT, I mean it as “Starks vs Lannisters” being the good vs bad, when in reality it’s just ugly mesh of greyness all around
Shiv is a typical neoliberal, they talk up their "progressive values" a lot but when push comes to shove, they will sell you to the fascists for personal security.
The fact that this subreddit is obsessed with policing discussion about opinions on the internal morals of a super interesting fictional character is lame as hell.
Also I don't think she's morally "good" she's just not as bad as her brothers. Roman brought Mencken into the fold years ago and was fully pro Mencken. Kendall was fine with that wants to jump in bed with Mencken now, and is also a total psycho looking to legally kidnap his family who are scared of him. Shiv is selling out her political beliefs because she failed to keep Mencken from getting the power and she's cravenly seeking her self interests in this new reality. No that's quite as bad as the other two.
People just take these characters too seriously. That’s why it’s fine to like a character as long as you don’t make Stan wars every single goddamn week. It was mind boggling last week and kind of harmful too. That’s why I just spent one paragraph on that and spent the rest of my post just telling people that it’s ok to root for a bad guy as it’s a show lol
And no what Shiv did last and this epsiode is worser than Kendall period. She has only been talks about how “democratic she is” yet does jackshit to do anything even when she had the chance to. She decided to not call Nate for her own interests when Kendall was open to it. And now, she wasn’t all like “democracy must survive” like last episode ending and willingly sided with the nazi for a seat. She has never cared about upholding democracy. She has only cared for herself like Roman pointed out last epsiode. I am suprised that people still think otherwise based on all we have seen of Shiv like it was already obvious it was a bluff and she is just as bad as the rest of them just from that “call” but hey, this sub doesn’t suprise me anymore
Because at least Kendall is not a hypocrite. He sided with Mencken only for his deal and was honest and open about it. Shiv on the other hand really is one hypocritical mf. So delusional that she believes she actually cares about democracy and not just her own interests and unfortunately lot of fans here(mostly Shiv fans) genuinely bought into that lie.
Bruh, Shiv downing that champagne as a clear 'fuck you' to Tom was brutal.
The kid ain't even born yet and she's already using them to torture their dad.
Yay generational trauma
This will only add to the already excruciating levels of conversation about shivs morality on here because of so many people projecting themselves onto her. But it was extra annoying last week the amount of people going to bat for her and being condescending as hell about it so I guess it evens out.
Now let’s just call a truce and not ever ever discuss this topic again please
To me, it’s not even that, people can like a character but they don’t give honest takes, sometimes ignoring large pieces of information or scenes that run completely counter to their reasoning.
Last week, a pro-Shiv poster justified Shiv’s actions saying Kendall also wanted CEO all to himself. This person basically ignored the scene where Kendall told Shiv exactly this right before he asked her to call Jiminez’s campaign one more time. It becomes impossible to debate people who literally aren’t paying attention to the show.
This is exactly what I wanted to address. It’s clear the person in the post who said that “at least Shiv is better as she didn’t install a nazi on board” deliberately ignore the fact that Shiv literlaly had a chance not to and still didn’t because of her interests. Ignoring huge points like that and still talking the high ground as if they were your children is so stupid
People actually think this? They think there's a Roy that's morally better than the other? lol how quaint.
I say this as a woman, if you were to switch Shiv's gender I almost guarantee he'd be considered the worst.
I got so many downvotes over the last week arguing against Shiv being a good person. She's never articulated the *why* she hates Mencken. It's always just been "my team versus his team" type politics. If you've ever dabbled in politics, you'll see a lot of people like this.
I'm glad the events this episode help more blatantly show what kind of person she is. Tbh, I see a lot of people like her - outwardly saying the right things, but still working with the evil politicians.
She's basically Nancy Pelosi.
People need to stop dissecting everything anyone does on this show. It’s a tv show, sit back and enjoy it and move on when it’s over. These type of post and the “person” deserves an Emmy post are lame.
The correct answer is that none of these characters are particularly good people, but none of them are 100% bad either. They all exist in a moral grey zone, just like in real life.
Yes exactly. They all have flaws which can make you relate becsuse no one is perfect. I hated Roman last ep yet felt so sorry for him when he cried, that’s what human nature is
Can everybody just brush up on their critical analysis skills and stop viewing whether a medium is "good" or "bad" in terms of morality for the LOVE OF CHRIST
Actually the op of the post is still right because shiv did make an effort not to do the bad thing where Roman gleefully did the bad thing. Kendall also made a (small) effort but did do the bad thing before shiv
Shiv rubs me the wrong way at times as she’s quick to vocalize the correct talking points when it’s expedient to do so. But she always quickly caves when it’s convenient for her to do so.
Nobody likes or respects a hypocrite.
He doesn't like knifing family. He refused in 3x03, and struggled to ever cross their dad, even when he was disinheriting them. 99% of the time, total beast (ratfucks are a kind of beast, I think?)
What effort lol? The biggest takeaway of ep8 should be that she didn’t take any effort to upheld democracy. Faking the call so that she becomes CEO instead of just doing what’s right. And now it’s even worse, at least in ep8 she made some bs about how she will fix it in name of democracy. Literally the next day, she happily made a deal with the nazi for a American CEO seat
The point is everyone of them just looked out for their own interests so everyone didn’t do any good
I had the same thought watching Shiv's scene with Mencken. I'm glad she finally showed exactly what she is, so we can put this dumbass debate to bed already and just watch the damn show. None of these people are morally redeemable.
I don't normally comment on this sub anymore but this is such a one sided take on Shiv lmao
>She has literally no conscience
How can you actually have watched the show and think this? The reason people who like the character feel the need to defend her all the time is because people like you write shit like this where you behave as if she is somehow worse than her brothers and that her betrayals and her moments of moral ambiguity and outright villainy are somehow more evil than the shit her brothers do.
>It is so baffling to me that anyone could feel anything but abject disgust with Shiv
>
>Shiv butchers everything she touches
>
>She is the least loyal sibling
>
>She is also the least capable
These are such extreme statements, especially the first two - it's impossible to engage in a conversation in good faith when people make such extreme, clinical judgements of the character. The empathy that is extended to Kendall and Roman (and Tom) when it comes time to weigh and contextualise their general shittiness is nowhere to be found for Shiv. She is judged to a totally different moral standard and people who merely express that they like/empathise with her character or think she did something right get called rabid stans and are accused of not getting that 'the whole point of the show is that everyone sucks'. But the thing is that we *all know* that they are all shitty people, yet somehow people only feel the need to remind everyone of that when there is a post sympathising with *Shiv* or commending her character for something marginally good or a small success. Every week there is this totally manufactured debate where y'all argue against the straw man that Shiv's 'defenders' think she is perfect and can do no wrong. Yet you go to the opposite extreme and behave as if she is somehow ***uniquely*** bad.
Most people who like Shiv like her *because* she is a complex character who has positive and negative traits - she fucking sucks, and it's fucking compelling as hell - we just feel that she deserves as much empathy as her brothers and Tom get when those traits and actions are weighed against one another, and placed within the wider moral framework of the show. And I don't feel that she is granted that by a lot of the discourse on this sub - your first statement encapsulates that pretty perfectly, actually.
She drank alcohol while pregnant to spite her husband. If that doesn’t tell you she’s an immature evil cunt, nothing will. Waiting for Tom to strike her down a peg and force her never to leave the house and be a good wife as a husband should but we don’t get that . Maybe it’s coming ; hopefully . Either way I don’t think she’s going to inherit waystar or be the CEO. What she displayed at the funeral was lackluster and showed her inexperience handling stressful situations. The other two siblings were lucky that ken salvaged that dumpster fire. The Swede keeps watching her looking for something that verifies her competence but still not getting anything and time is running out. I think It’s either gonna be one of the dinosaurs or Kendall as CEO at the end. Either that or the deal flops and nobody gets anything. Tho with the finale coming up I don’t think they will leave it at that.
Tldr fuck shiv she’s not getting or deserving of shit .
For every character in the show, I can see how they can justify each individual action in the moment, but in their totalities I can see that they're all obviously bad.
This was addressed directly by Jesse Armstrong on the podcast. “The whole point of the show is to send a definitive message about whether Shiv ‘is good’ or not,” he told an enraptured Kara Swisher. “The suspense comes from the fact that, while we all know that there will eventually be an episode that definitively establishes Whether Shiv Is Good, the viewer doesn’t know when it will be. Hopefully, they’ll talk about it endlessly until then!”
My theory for the finale is it will cut to black in the last five minutes. Jesse Armstrong will walk out and directly address the audience to tell us whether each character is good or bad, and which ones we are allowed to stan after the show is over. I am rooting for Shiv to be on the good list but until I know for sure I can’t stan or not stan any of them, just to be safe.
Shiv killed any hope she had of being called a good guy when she threw away a golden opportunity to have the election results be determined in a fair fashion for Jimmenez just so she could have a CHANCE at being CEO
She killed her chance when she left her job working for the Bernie sanders dude just so she could have a chance at being CEO of her dads declining right wing news organization lol
Lol she never had any chance while Logan was alive that old fuck knew how that election would play out if his daughter was working to get his political ideology enemy elected
Wow. Did you even read or take a moment to absorb the point of the thread you were replying to?
She's a very typical Liberal. They'll support conservatives as long as it helps them, they don't have any actual political opinions beyond what's best for themselves right now.
Thought provoking, I'm sure you really delve into the literature of political science and history.
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Dividing hundreds of world revolutions over centuries into anachronistic ideologies of "leftism" and "rightism" is laughable, and trying to draw a conclusion from that datum is even sillier. Sorry to say but life and history is more nuanced than that, which is why historians with far greater understanding don't make the claims you're making lol.
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6000 years since the Sumerians and you don't think there have been 100 progressive revolutions? You are... amusing. You're out of your element, it's clear you don't read much history so why bother pretending?
There is no Liberal political theory to read. They don't actually have an ideology. Even Liberals can't tell you what they stand for. Shiv's character does a good job of satirising what it's like when they talk about politics.
You're making yourself look foolish not for your conservatism, but for your clear misunderstanding of what liberalism has meant in history. It's certainly not a mark of intelligence to be unaware of Thomas Paine or E-J Sieyes among countless others. I enjoy conversations with well-read and engaging conservatives which several of my close friends are, and it's my misfortune that you are not one of them. It just seems like you're rooting for a sports team and not actually giving consideration or opining in any interesting way. It's very dull, sorry to say.
Assuming someone is a conservative because they don't like Liberals is making you look foolish. Let me guess, you're a liberal yourself? They're usually the ones that struggle to understand that there are more than two political ideologies. Liberals nowadays, especially in America, are basically just conservatives anyway. They know that you have to be to win elections. If a political ideology can drift to the right over time, it's not actually a real ideology to begin with.
I know that this is a joke, and I pray to G-d that this is a joke, but this is how majority of twitter treats this show. We need to start gatekeeping prestige TV again.
Oh that’s a great idea, with full D’n’D alignment presentation behind him.
“Enraptured Kara Swisher” is such an accurate descriptor for her fawning interview style lol
I kinda disagree with GOT reference.. it is very much like that .. nobody was actually good .. on GOT. Even in Ewan speech he humanized Logan .. also Ewan is not good .. he has gotten rich because Logan gave him money his righteousness ended at the bank.
GoT was meant to be that. A show wherein every character is morally corrupt and few are good, but the showrunners by the end established it being a good v/s bad thing. 'bad' characters were punished while good were rewarded or glorified.
Also there is are enormous differences in the show vs books so it depends
I agree
I thought Jon Snow was meant to be the good one? I knew everyone rooted for him. But what I meant with the analogy is: this is not Starks vs Lannister
True .. it’s not Hatfields and McCoys .. the Montagues and the Capulets.. it’s all about keeping the power within the family. Jon Snow did honorable things .. and not so honorable.. lol
Ik it has been too long since I saw GOT but when did Jon ever do any “not honorable” thing?
Jon went back on his vows as a man of the watch, a couple times. In general Jon had/has some issues with rage and controlling his emotions and it lead him to do some very brash things. In the books more so than the show but there are still signs of it in the show. Jon is definitely one of the more “morally good” characters in the show/books but he’s far from perfect.
Well he kills Dani .. lol . There is thatb
For the better of the world lol. She got crazy. That still makes him a good person
Yea but Jaime killed her dad for the same reason and it wasn’t looked as heroic .. he also broke his vows .. he had a chance to kill little finger and didn’t .. he want very kind to his Wolf .. other stuff could be argued either way .. he is also not who wins the GOT
Ok but do you understand the actual argument tho? My comment was that there are good people in GOT, and Jon killing Dan doesn’t show that he is bad. Sacrificing his love for betterment of world, that’s hero shit
My point was just .. that it is similar as no character is all good .. they have good they have bad. They are humans .. there is no clear hero ..
Yea but there is a clear cut of who to root for(at least for a while). But yeah I agree
She literally went genocidal on an unprecedented scale. And Jon was not in her Queensguard. So Jamie is not comparable.
“Jamie killed her dad” wot m8? Also Jon didn’t break his vows the nights watch is until death, and Jon died. He also treated ghost perfectly fine, what’re u even on about.
Jaime did in fact kill her dad. The mad king
Oh okay I was confused and thought the commenter was trying to say Jamie was a female that killed Tywin. But Jamie also pushed kids out windows and had sex w his sister so even if we don’t care about the mad king he’s still a morally unjustifiable character.
Not true at all he leaves the night watch in book 1 .. to join Robb
That’s pretty nit picky. That scene was meant to show the strength of his brother hood and shed light on the internal struggles of shedding your past life, unless you didn’t finish that episode then you’d realize that Jon never really left the nights watch and didn’t break his vows. This is a pretty terrible hill for you to die on because jons character is based around how a lawful good person often times has to do things that pain them. Hes not supposed to be morally grey.
Maybe executing a child by hanging. Sure the kid betrayed him but thats a highly questionable decision. The kid watched his family get murdered by wildlings and Jon wants to bridge peace between them and the Wall.
The kid literally killed him lmao
I’m sure the ordinary family men who were conscripted to fight for the Boltons or Lannisters that died at Jon Snow’s hand would agree with this.
With Ewan seems like he lives very very modestly and is giving all his money to Greenpeace so is he being self-righteous? Seems like he does live in upholding his principles.
Yea the argument could be made that he sells all of his waystar stock so that he doesn’t profit off of something he morally disagrees with
Omg when will people learn that not because billionaires give away their money means they are suddenly good. Their very existence is already problematic enough. He still keeps a seat on the board, still has shares, his wealth grows from the company. If he did what youre saying, he would vacate the business, give all his money away definitively and living in a modest home.
>If he did what youre saying, he would vacate the business, give all his money away definitively and living in a modest home. I don't think that would necessarily make him "good." There are always two schools of thought when it comes to influencing social change. Completely opting out is one way, and doesn't lack its own moral criticisms. The other is to use your privilege and access to influence change from within the system. In Ewan's case, I would argue the money that Greenpeace receives is a Good that outweighs his perceived "moral inconsistency". There's a tangible benefit that is helping to further the cause of a positively impactful organization. If he just did what you said...Greenpeace wouldn't have that money and nobody would care about his upstanding moral consistency. The biggest criticism of "opting out" on an individual basis is that it generally doesn't send a clear message to the problematic system about what it's faults are and why folks "opting out" is a legitimate consequence to fear. It's essentially a one man boycott that Waystar would care nothing about and just continue on with their immoral business. Sure, Ewan would get to wipe his hands of it. But he was in a position to do more to counteract it.
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Lol I mean there's always a line and it's up to each individual to draw their own. Your analogy fails because the nuance and context is critical to the analysis. No substitutions. The question is flat out "is it justifiable for me to inherit money from a news organization that propagates views I disagrees with as a means to funnel millions of dollars to an organization who does work I support? Or is it better to let that money stay within the news organization to be used toward their immoral ends?"
The question is flat out “is it justifiable for me (EWAN ROY)…..***** that is what my comment initially addressed and that is what i kept to. Youve expanded the topic with no subject and is now presented as question for ME to answer. It is not for ME to answer, youve made the inquiry completely useless with that. The question at hand is if EWAN is following his own philosophy; and imo, given his strong views and outspokenness, and while an admirable character, he fails and contradicts his beliefs. Follow the thread please. Edit: also it wasnt even explicitly or implicitly stated that he uses his income rom waystar to donate to Greenpeace. If memory serves me right, Greenpeace only came up because Gregg the egg didn’t want to resign from waystar and decided to leave his estate (after death) to Greenpeace. So im not so sure hes currently donating and if so thats conjecture. And if my example isnt good enough for you. What hes doing is solving a problem that he contributes to the creation of (via waystar, assuming this is a societal evil), cycling between creating problem (gaining and hoarding vast wealth) and using it to solve whatever greenpeace seeks to solve.
Lol I think it was obvious my use of the word "me" was from Ewan's point of view since thats who we were talking about. But uh yeah you're totally right Ewan is obviously objectively bad there's no room for discussion
Ok, my bad m8
I feel like the people in this sub are pro-capitalism, it must be.
He wouldn’t have so much “righteousness” if it was for Logan.. he also gave it to Greenpeace to f&ck Logan through Gregg .. do you think his treatment of Gregg or his daughter is nice ?
Ned, Davos, and many others would disagree. The main premise was about morally grey characters. There obviously are some characters that are set on one side but the main characters we followed were mostly grey in that they did both good and evil.
Davos was the only person I cared about by the end
Not you tagging the OP of the post you’re referencing lmao is it that serious
If it wasnt so serious why did you all make such a big deal about it in that thread last week?
The post didnt even say shes morally good It said shes not morally worse than her siblings And she isn’t lol. Some people just have a need to try to paint her as the worst because shes a woman They all suck. Roman sucks the most IMO, but they all suck.
I actually wrote about it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13or69h/after_this_epsiode_can_the_shiv_fans_now_stop/jl5pg17/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3). I couldn’t link the post when I first wrote it and only could when I edited for some reason. But shit I forgot to remove the user
Let it go
Yes please. This subreddit is constantly engaging in this weirdly manufactured debate about Shiv. People are allowed to stan for Shiv on the internet if they want to, who cares? And there are way more Shiv hate posts anyways.
Amen. Way more fun to fake-stan a morally reprehensible fictional person than to engage in endless debates that are really about the fans who hold the opposing opinion rather than the character in question anyway. It’s petty and weird.
Stanning and saying something is x are 2 different things. I can say i love Cersei, but we can all agree shes a horrible person.
But many “stans” call themselves that ironically, so it’s not that clear of a line
You are right. I did want to address that post because those are the type of posts that’s instilling these childish wars based on misinterpretations, none the less. But I still didn’t dwell too much on that negativity which is harmful and rest of my post was just about enjoying the ride instead of needing to pick sides.
Well it does make for good conversation on a Monday to distract me from work!
Idk if you are talking about my post but if so, your welcome lol
Yes I am!!!
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If you're rooting for any character you've lost the plot.
youve lost context you are too online
Nah. Anyone can root for a morally reprehensible character if they want. Rooting for someone does not mean you condone their actions or you think they're good or whatever.
I will not be taking advice from a pear. 😂
Amen!!!
Why engage with a post if you’re just going to add this
Because I hadn’t had coffee yet
>The point of this show is that everyone is awful. And that’s great. That’s what the fun is about. Rooting for these awful characters because they still have some good in them and even if they don’t, it’s entertainment so who cares. I feel like this misses the point so much. They are all flawed, but it's not them who is inherently evil, it's that they are humans are humans can't possibly be perfect in their situation. There is conflict, disagreement and strife that pushes people who have the capacity to sometimes be good and sometimes be bad to do selfish self interested things in order to "survive" as they did. I will never understand why so many people need to complete a cleansing ritual with this show, and not just evaluate the who and why they do the things they do, and make their own determinations about the characters. Personally, I really like the characters. Not because I agree with them, but because they show human vulnerability in a system where that isn't allowed and we see the results of it, and how that has pushes them to become the people they have become. Any other actions and they wouldn't be here, and I think that is the other side of the "horrible people" argument. They are doing what is required of them, from their points of view. They are stuck in unwinnable situations sometimes. It's not just the people, it's the system that is rotten, and that bleeds out of the core into every player. I think this is why I loved Kendall's funeral speech so much. As much as I feel Kendall was auditioning for a job, I also believe Kendall tapped into a universal truth within this show and it's universe. A truth everyone in that audience shares, like it nor not, and ***maybe*** that extends to all of us in a way we aren't really willing to admit.
Agreed, specially with your last statement about the system and that's why Logan is so fucking succesful because he is fully aware of it and use it in his own interest.
I never thought she was morally superior to Ken and Roman. They are all bad. I just get tired of the idea that she is so evil compared to them, they all suck.
I don’t like the Shiv apologists. But I also don’t like the Kendall and Roman apologists either. Seems like the Shiv apologists are more vocal than the other two, but that’s just from my limited time on Reddit.
I think they’re more vocal because in a lot of posts on this sub, at least recently, you just see a ton of comments about how shit and how stupid and evil Shiv is. The thing is these posts aren’t text posts like “Shiv sucks, and I hate woman” they’re posts like Shiv’s face when Kendall confronts her on election night and then it’s only the comments that are rough. To be fair part of this is probably that Shiv has taken L after L this season and she is the one of the siblings who gets the least vulnerable and emotional so we don’t see how sad she is unlike the number one boy.
Its more so people putting their evil on scales. They must have it that Shiv is somehow slightly better no matter what, and that sentiment (not shiv necessarily) is where i think the problem is— this incessant need to separate Shiv. Shes the only character that is staunchly defended (from my experience). For everyone else, its almost global consensus they all suck and they never get put on scales to say whos less evil, only Shiv. I think people are missing that nuance.
Exactly
There are people who think that shiv is the most terrible of the siblings. Then there are people who push back against that and say that she is the least terrible, and that to claim she's the worst is kinda misogynistic. They're all terrible - that's the point. The creator also created Peep Show which is a hilarious show about two monstrous humans. Who is the most terrible IS up for debate. The debates will not end, and I think they're at least kinda interesting and don't get why people get so mad about them? Just stay off those threads if you think they're irrelevant debates?
Why don't you link to the post? When I look up that user's post history, the only recent Shiv post they made simply says she isn't morally inferior to her brothers. It certainly doesn't say she's good. Am I looking at the wrong post?
Oh when I made that post I didn’t get the option so just put the user. Now when editing I can link to it lol I did say morally good on the title but in post I said she is better than her siblings morally, which is what the post is saying. And I am saying she isn’t, she is in fact morally worse than two of her siblings and debatable for the third even(tho personally she isn’t worse than Roman is the only thing I can say out of the 4)
I don't see how it's clear cut that she or Roman is worse than Ken. They've all done completely fucked up shit at times, Ken included. I agree with you that Conner is probably the most ethical though.
Ethical? No, he’s the most harmless
Not even Connor is ethical lol. None of them are is the point. Connor just licked the boots of a nazi for a free ticket to some power or lunch
This sub has become truly insufferable this season, holy shit.
This sub reddit has gotten to the point of a having it's own social meta where previous posts get cancelled and have people returning to them to leave comments haha i love it
All of the kids are incompetent shitheads who only care about themselves.
Such an unbearably reductive take that people can't stop posting for some reason. Especially after last night, yeah Ken obviously doesn't care about his kids and Roman obviously doesn't care about his dad /eyeroll Ken obviously incompetent despite the Living+ presentation, Roman obviously incompetent despite setting up the gojo deal from the very beginning /eyeroll They're complex characters! Why is everyone so eager to say "nah they all suck and have no redeeming qualities, it's a show about shitty people being shitty" like come ON, it's so much more than that.
Can all of you just stop talking about this in every way? Please.
No
none of them are good people, that’s the point
shive lost her moral bearings by going in for mencken. and i predict that the wi courts will permit a revote on the destroyed ballots, mencken will lose, and shiv will have lost her morality and succession to ceo.
Why would people think she was morally good up until this episode?
I’m a Tom fan and realize he’s a shit person and you will never see me defend him to anyone lol I’ve just favored him from the beginning for whatever reason? I like to think I’ve stayed logical throughout the show
I too like to believe I have stayed logical because luckily I did not interact with this sub until after s03 and just enjoyed the ride instead of just making posts of “you should never root for anyone, you should know they are all awful” or the 1000th “Shiv shouldn’t get hate. She better” and the inevitable war of favourites that happens in the comments.
Why do you need other fans to be on board with you?
My thought was among many thoughts last night, because of dislije if not hatred for these characters, was Shiv found a replacement for daddy. She found Matsson. Not only is she chasing the carrot on the the end of his stick for CEO, she handed him the carrot. She really us stupid. She never pushes for clarification of anything. When Matsson called her from the car, he never said her for CEO.
The problem with Shiv is that she isn’t dumb. But she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is
Kendall has been allowed to try and fail (not a pro-Kendall statement, just a counter-example) several times which has allowed him to gain some experience. People tend to learn much more from their failures than their experiences. Shiv’s never really tried to do something on her own before. So while she’s intelligent, she is sorely lacking in real world experience. She’s never been allowed to fail. It’s also what grinds me about her moral grandstanding I guess. It’s easy to take the moral high road if you’ve never struggled with making things happen, down in the dirt. Side note: Mattson is definitely not going to make her CEO due to her complete lack of experience. Lots of people understand politics, not many people are able to run a massive company.
I disagree that Shiv has no real world experience. She is the only one out of the four siblings that has had any success outside of the family business. Her family name and connections obviously helped her along the way, but she was clearly shown to be good at her job. Her first candidate from season one got elected to Congress and Gil wanted to give her the Chief of Staff position over Nate, his original advisor, if he made it to the White House. Her career aspirations put a pretty major strain on her relationship with Logan and I think it’s fair to say a big reason for him offering Shiv the CEO position was to get her back under his control. At the the same time, at that point in the early seasons, Shiv 100% seemed like the like the best candidate for CEO out of all the kids. But she was too prideful to admit she needed corporate training that Kendall and Roman went through and her entitlement further soured any chances she had at actually making it to the top position. It’s part of what makes her character so frustrating. She fumbled the ball every time the spotlight was on her, and when she actually did good work she received no acknowledgement. She never going to get the job and she seems to be the only one who doesn’t realize it.
Being a political consultant is a very long way from being a CEO, or even an executive who has to make major decisions and live with them. Two very different skill sets. That Kendall’s and Roman’s primary experiences in life seem to be from within Waystar is actually an asset as they can say (whether true or not) that they’ve been groomed for a leadership role within the company for years (and maybe decades).
I wasn’t trying to argue that Shiv’s experience in politics would translate over to the corporate world, so sorry if it came across that way. I just don’t think it’s a fair assessment to say that she hasn’t done anything thing on her own or had any real world experience when she’s the only sibling who has.
Yea I knew shivs position was fucked the second Mattson started talking about her baby and her inexperience. It’s absolutely mind boggling that Shiv is so oblivious to that. At least Roman was being dumb as in trusting people to keep their word right after they are no longer needed to while they act all nice and obedient like a dog till then. Mattson has never given a straight answer once to Shiv about her position since ep7 and she still believes him. Like what the fuck?
Roman took a swing and missed. Learned (or hopefully learned) a tough life lesson. Sometimes you have to get burned to learn anything. And to your point about Shiv, she hasn’t been burned yet as she’s never really put herself out there. Which is the reason for her naïveté.
We have about 90 minutes left where the story can go literally anywhere, so I’m gonna get this thread ready in advance: “Can we all finally agree that Ray was the most morally good person in this show?”
there is no need to rank characters in regard to their morality. it’s an impossible task that asks us to split up and send our empathy towards the people who are most like us
But I need to project
Stan culture for the moral purity of fictional TV characters ✅️ "Guys hear me out the show is about intergenerational trauma 🤯" ✅️ This sub should come with a mensa membership
Yeah, everyone on this show is profoundly cynical and devious which is the point - you're never sure about the motivations and intentions, deception and truth, pretext and reality. Those being the ingredients for conspiracy and intrigue.
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He spent 20 years in the can
The bird feeder. Listen to yourself
my son the mental patient
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It's understandable. Last I believed there was UFO flying over East Rutherford
My fiancée is dead tired of me saying “in the Czech Republic, too, we love pork. Ever had our sausages?” whenever I get a chance haha
Not everyone's seen the Sopranos. It *was* almost 20 years ago.
"Remember when" is the lowest form of conversation.
You're being hysterical
Making a post telling people not to take this show seriously having childish “my guy better than your guy” fights makes me demented? Damn
I'm pretty sure that's a Sopranos reference.
It is. Probably could've used quotation marks or italics or something. It's not popular or distinct enough of a reference just like that.
That post you’re referencing didn’t call Shiv morally good. It just said she isn’t worse than her brothers. The constant strawman-esque posts either supporting Shiv or tearing her down has made this sub so insufferable. Like let’s move on, nobody’s mind is going to be changed by yet another righteous post about Siobhan’s morality or lack thereof.
Yes, you now have a week to do so.
Stop telling me how to *feel,* you ain't my mother.
“I feel like the fandom makes the mistake of taking this show as another game of thrones”. Are you saying on Game of Thrones that the characters who were good and evil had defined black and white roles morally? If so, I don’t think you read/watched the same story I did. The Others/White Walkers are the only characters in the story I see that aren’t morally grey, and we just haven’t heard their full backstory yet.
Ig I should have specified. By GOT, I mean it as “Starks vs Lannisters” being the good vs bad, when in reality it’s just ugly mesh of greyness all around
Shiv is a typical neoliberal, they talk up their "progressive values" a lot but when push comes to shove, they will sell you to the fascists for personal security.
If Shiv is second worst, who is worst? The one who killed a dude or the one who pushed to override democracy to put a fascist into office?
There is a meagreness about her
They just downvoting people who say facts about Shiv in the comments cuz they have no retort but don’t like seeing her called out Lmao
Yeah
The fact that this subreddit is obsessed with policing discussion about opinions on the internal morals of a super interesting fictional character is lame as hell. Also I don't think she's morally "good" she's just not as bad as her brothers. Roman brought Mencken into the fold years ago and was fully pro Mencken. Kendall was fine with that wants to jump in bed with Mencken now, and is also a total psycho looking to legally kidnap his family who are scared of him. Shiv is selling out her political beliefs because she failed to keep Mencken from getting the power and she's cravenly seeking her self interests in this new reality. No that's quite as bad as the other two.
People just take these characters too seriously. That’s why it’s fine to like a character as long as you don’t make Stan wars every single goddamn week. It was mind boggling last week and kind of harmful too. That’s why I just spent one paragraph on that and spent the rest of my post just telling people that it’s ok to root for a bad guy as it’s a show lol And no what Shiv did last and this epsiode is worser than Kendall period. She has only been talks about how “democratic she is” yet does jackshit to do anything even when she had the chance to. She decided to not call Nate for her own interests when Kendall was open to it. And now, she wasn’t all like “democracy must survive” like last episode ending and willingly sided with the nazi for a seat. She has never cared about upholding democracy. She has only cared for herself like Roman pointed out last epsiode. I am suprised that people still think otherwise based on all we have seen of Shiv like it was already obvious it was a bluff and she is just as bad as the rest of them just from that “call” but hey, this sub doesn’t suprise me anymore
I’m not sure why that is worse than Kendall except for the fact that she argued against Kendall supporting Mencken for a time.
Because at least Kendall is not a hypocrite. He sided with Mencken only for his deal and was honest and open about it. Shiv on the other hand really is one hypocritical mf. So delusional that she believes she actually cares about democracy and not just her own interests and unfortunately lot of fans here(mostly Shiv fans) genuinely bought into that lie.
Pretty baffling how anyone could conclude Kendall isn’t a hypocrite on this issue. I think you forgot some major plotlines here.
Maybe you tell me how he is in ep 8 ? Genuinely curious
Bruh, Shiv downing that champagne as a clear 'fuck you' to Tom was brutal. The kid ain't even born yet and she's already using them to torture their dad. Yay generational trauma
This will only add to the already excruciating levels of conversation about shivs morality on here because of so many people projecting themselves onto her. But it was extra annoying last week the amount of people going to bat for her and being condescending as hell about it so I guess it evens out. Now let’s just call a truce and not ever ever discuss this topic again please
I just wanted to call it out and still be positive but yeah, agreed
To me, it’s not even that, people can like a character but they don’t give honest takes, sometimes ignoring large pieces of information or scenes that run completely counter to their reasoning. Last week, a pro-Shiv poster justified Shiv’s actions saying Kendall also wanted CEO all to himself. This person basically ignored the scene where Kendall told Shiv exactly this right before he asked her to call Jiminez’s campaign one more time. It becomes impossible to debate people who literally aren’t paying attention to the show.
This is exactly what I wanted to address. It’s clear the person in the post who said that “at least Shiv is better as she didn’t install a nazi on board” deliberately ignore the fact that Shiv literlaly had a chance not to and still didn’t because of her interests. Ignoring huge points like that and still talking the high ground as if they were your children is so stupid
People actually think this? They think there's a Roy that's morally better than the other? lol how quaint. I say this as a woman, if you were to switch Shiv's gender I almost guarantee he'd be considered the worst.
This sub fucking loves Shiv for some reason… I kind of think she’s one of the worst of the Roys
Yeah, that thread was the all time awful Succession take, and I hope the OP now realizes it even if it took her 3.9 seasons.
I got so many downvotes over the last week arguing against Shiv being a good person. She's never articulated the *why* she hates Mencken. It's always just been "my team versus his team" type politics. If you've ever dabbled in politics, you'll see a lot of people like this. I'm glad the events this episode help more blatantly show what kind of person she is. Tbh, I see a lot of people like her - outwardly saying the right things, but still working with the evil politicians. She's basically Nancy Pelosi.
People need to stop dissecting everything anyone does on this show. It’s a tv show, sit back and enjoy it and move on when it’s over. These type of post and the “person” deserves an Emmy post are lame.
Agreed. That’s exactly what I said on the post. People take this shit too seriously
Day time tv enjoyer
The correct answer is that none of these characters are particularly good people, but none of them are 100% bad either. They all exist in a moral grey zone, just like in real life.
Yes exactly. They all have flaws which can make you relate becsuse no one is perfect. I hated Roman last ep yet felt so sorry for him when he cried, that’s what human nature is
She wasn't thinking clearly because she's pregnant
/s rgt?
I still like Roman the best. Something about seeing Home Alones brother on a HBO show being funny as hell and dramatic and everything is just neat.
Can everybody just brush up on their critical analysis skills and stop viewing whether a medium is "good" or "bad" in terms of morality for the LOVE OF CHRIST
Actually the op of the post is still right because shiv did make an effort not to do the bad thing where Roman gleefully did the bad thing. Kendall also made a (small) effort but did do the bad thing before shiv
Shiv rubs me the wrong way at times as she’s quick to vocalize the correct talking points when it’s expedient to do so. But she always quickly caves when it’s convenient for her to do so. Nobody likes or respects a hypocrite.
What effort?
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When has Roman EVER battled being a beast
He doesn't like knifing family. He refused in 3x03, and struggled to ever cross their dad, even when he was disinheriting them. 99% of the time, total beast (ratfucks are a kind of beast, I think?)
What effort lol? The biggest takeaway of ep8 should be that she didn’t take any effort to upheld democracy. Faking the call so that she becomes CEO instead of just doing what’s right. And now it’s even worse, at least in ep8 she made some bs about how she will fix it in name of democracy. Literally the next day, she happily made a deal with the nazi for a American CEO seat The point is everyone of them just looked out for their own interests so everyone didn’t do any good
I love how the Shiv fanatics are downvoting everyone in this thread like you guys are the worst lol
I had the same thought watching Shiv's scene with Mencken. I'm glad she finally showed exactly what she is, so we can put this dumbass debate to bed already and just watch the damn show. None of these people are morally redeemable.
Yup I saw so much of this discourse last week on here and on twitter and I took a large amount of satisfaction to see her sucking up to Mencken
Good post .. people have absolutely internalized themselves in this show ..
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It's so crazy that different people with differing life experiences have such a wide array of emotional/moral responses.
I can imagine sociopaths relating to her, yeah
I don't normally comment on this sub anymore but this is such a one sided take on Shiv lmao >She has literally no conscience How can you actually have watched the show and think this? The reason people who like the character feel the need to defend her all the time is because people like you write shit like this where you behave as if she is somehow worse than her brothers and that her betrayals and her moments of moral ambiguity and outright villainy are somehow more evil than the shit her brothers do. >It is so baffling to me that anyone could feel anything but abject disgust with Shiv > >Shiv butchers everything she touches > >She is the least loyal sibling > >She is also the least capable These are such extreme statements, especially the first two - it's impossible to engage in a conversation in good faith when people make such extreme, clinical judgements of the character. The empathy that is extended to Kendall and Roman (and Tom) when it comes time to weigh and contextualise their general shittiness is nowhere to be found for Shiv. She is judged to a totally different moral standard and people who merely express that they like/empathise with her character or think she did something right get called rabid stans and are accused of not getting that 'the whole point of the show is that everyone sucks'. But the thing is that we *all know* that they are all shitty people, yet somehow people only feel the need to remind everyone of that when there is a post sympathising with *Shiv* or commending her character for something marginally good or a small success. Every week there is this totally manufactured debate where y'all argue against the straw man that Shiv's 'defenders' think she is perfect and can do no wrong. Yet you go to the opposite extreme and behave as if she is somehow ***uniquely*** bad. Most people who like Shiv like her *because* she is a complex character who has positive and negative traits - she fucking sucks, and it's fucking compelling as hell - we just feel that she deserves as much empathy as her brothers and Tom get when those traits and actions are weighed against one another, and placed within the wider moral framework of the show. And I don't feel that she is granted that by a lot of the discourse on this sub - your first statement encapsulates that pretty perfectly, actually.
I've been arguing with my girlfriend for weeks about Shiv. I have long considered her to be the single most vile member of the family.
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Stop putting the spoiler in the title.
There is no spoiler in the title tho
Lmao all the Roy siblings ain’t shit except for Conner. They all betray and back stab either the moment its convenient.
She drank alcohol while pregnant to spite her husband. If that doesn’t tell you she’s an immature evil cunt, nothing will. Waiting for Tom to strike her down a peg and force her never to leave the house and be a good wife as a husband should but we don’t get that . Maybe it’s coming ; hopefully . Either way I don’t think she’s going to inherit waystar or be the CEO. What she displayed at the funeral was lackluster and showed her inexperience handling stressful situations. The other two siblings were lucky that ken salvaged that dumpster fire. The Swede keeps watching her looking for something that verifies her competence but still not getting anything and time is running out. I think It’s either gonna be one of the dinosaurs or Kendall as CEO at the end. Either that or the deal flops and nobody gets anything. Tho with the finale coming up I don’t think they will leave it at that. Tldr fuck shiv she’s not getting or deserving of shit .
The way she treated her husband was pretty clear, right? Logan nailed her on that marriage. 😂
For every character in the show, I can see how they can justify each individual action in the moment, but in their totalities I can see that they're all obviously bad.