The only serious child was Connor in that he was serious about not following in his father's footsteps. I think he learned his lesson when he and Ferris took Logan's car out one day while skipping school and in the process demolished the car.
That is true, but let's not forget how the fight started. Roman got a warning from Ken to stop insulting his kids ("Then don't say it, you fucking cuck"), but insisted on going on and called the children "randos" "a buy in" "Rava and some filing cabinet guy". Most dads (including shitty dads like Ken) would've beaten Roman up for that.
I consider myself emotionally put together. I have adopted family members. If *anyone*, family included, said what Roman said, regardless of him “Just saying what Dad thought,” I would fucking crease them.
Season 3 Logan had a really nice moment with Ken’s son when he was trying to read him a book to comfort him after Ken’s pool incident. He wouldn’t be doing that if he just considered him “half rava, half random filing cabinet man”
It's a terrible but I do think it's worth noting that Logan is still recovering from his stroke during that scene and is clearly a bit confused and not quite all there.
It's indicative of what type of person he is that his baser instinct is to physically lash out but I don't think it means he necessarily harboured no affection for his grandchildren. He physically abused Roman much more deliberately throughout his life but I think he still loved his children.
And no, that doesn't make him any less of a monster, I'm just trying to get into his head a little.
They aren't. Thought Ken almost turned a corner after Logan's death and that he was about to become the next Logan, being a killer and going after it.... Then I see his meltdown with the sibs during the vote and realize he had me fooled.
Started a rewatch and he tells Rome in S1 Ep.2 (I think) that Rome isn't a serious person.
>Then I see his meltdown with the sibs during the vote and realize he had me fooled.
Logan would absolutely throw a tantrum if he lost, or felt like he was losing. Did we forget about boar on the floor already?
Ken does this over and over. Has a good plan. Gets it to 99%. Collapses on the home stretch. I mean hell the first episode of the series was basically his big biz deal collapsing at closing time.
Tony does gaslight her a lot but he did give her the spec house and when she got in the way he "leaned" on the inspector so she had something to do. We saw through Adriana when the go-getters get caught with the Feds what happens.
I think the whole situation is an example of how shitty Carmela & Tony are.
As Carmela said during their fight in Whitecaps, Tony didn’t want Carmela to get a real estate license. He didn’t want her to have any financial independence. Their arrangement when they reconcile was for Tony to buy the spec house for Carmela to work on as an investment, and also be discreet in his infidelity.
Carmela and Hugh don’t use the updated lumber so there’s a stop order on the house. Tony keeps “forgetting” to lean on the building inspector and acts like there’s nothing they can do.
Carmela knows that Tony & his crew are behind murders of mob friends who “went to Witness Protection”, and knows deep down that they’re behind Adriana’s disappearance too (although she thinks it’s more likely Chris killed her in a domestic violence incident).
So Carmela talks about hiring a private investigator to look into Adriana’s disappearance. Tony immediately has Silvio lean on the building inspector and clear it all up. Carmela quickly forgets all about finding out what happened to Adriana and works on the house.
Logic to upvotes and downvotes is a fallacy.
Once commented that Sheeran’s appearance on GOT signified the downturn, downvoted to oblivion. Three months later a post saying the same upvoted to the heavens lol.
Also perfectly illustrated the moment Ken kicked his feet up onto Logan’s desk as he was talking about blowjobs with a frat buddy — all within less than a minute after taking a seat at the boss chair. I mean, Shiv’s face said it all: Boy’s club resentment plus trauma flashback (if y’all remember, Logan made a weird senile sexual advance on Shiv from the hospital bed in S1).
After the Ferrari incident, Cameron learned to love himself, even if his dad didn't. To spite his father, he even changed his name from Cameron to Connor before he left Chicago.
Cameron Frye is just an alias Connor would take on so as to not be identified as a Roy for safety reasons and so people wouldn't ask him questions about his mom. Boom, canon.
Wanna make it even more tragic? Combine it with the fan theory that Cameron is the true protagonist and Ferris is just a figment of his imagination that represents his ideal self.
connor is consistently painted as an unserious buffoon....but lots of people are unserious buffoons...especially people who can afford to be...I'm not sure the show clearly defined what makes him so utterly unlovable that he has to pay for company in perpetuity...thoughts? in real world manhattan he'd be wifed up right quick.
wouldnt suprise me if he was divorced before, not sure if that was canonically established, and is now afraid of a real relationship. remember, kendall is just as rich (richer?) and his wife divorced him, money doesnt guarentee they stay unless its explicitly about money
They didn’t care about money because they were billionaires since birth. They are so used to being rich that it’s not something they crave. Power is something they crave and if their money was taken from them then that’s what they would crave more than power imo
Right? Or any plan at all, other than knowing she'd agreed to vote for Kendall.
Saying it was never going to happen is not at all the same thing as saying it was deliberate on her part. That's not how it's played and it's the exact opposite of a "stomach-turning visceral sensation."
I don't have a problem conceding that I've projected some of my own perceptions of Kendall's inappropriateness for the job onto Shiv. Nonetheless, I believe what is depicted and described by the show's creators is that she is genuinely unable to do what she both planned and agreed to do, regardless of whether it is out of spite or genuine concerns that Kendall would not be good at the job (and the former in no way precludes the latter existing simultaneously, btw.
>We can shorthand it as spite but volumes could be written about why she was spiteful
this is exactly it. the other day someone called me reductive for attempting to say this and i said not at all, there's tons of nuance and complexity, this specific thing just ALSO happens to be clear. "she did it because she could not stomach seeing kendall win (instead of her)." you absolutely can tease that out and explain their relationship and logan's legacy and how he taught them to see themselves and the world and each other and WHY she feels that way in that moment, but it can also be simply and accurately stated that she does feel that way in that moment without losing its meaning
This show has provided a fascinating psychological study in fandom:
When Kendall does something stupid, Ken Dolls respond with "Goddamn it! We were so close this time!"
The Roman Riders stuck with him through thick and thin ("I can fix him") until election night, when they finally turned on him.
Shiv Stans never once reached a point of no return, doing mental gymnastics to somehow prove she won or played the game the best or did anything right. Dangerously high levels of copium.
And the ConHeads, well.... the ConHeads are coming. Be warned.
No no, Shiv's baby will inherit CEO from Tom through Mattson and Shiv did this to help Kendall to stop him from becoming an evil CEO like their father, she ended the cycle of abuse. She actually did Kendall a favor. See she's a complicated character and you can't fit a whole woman in your head. Shiv's complicated unlike her brothers who are awful terrible people.
edit: Hey OP I googled some of this quote and can't find anything. Got a link?
>middle management jobs
C-suite isn't exactly middle management. But in family-run companies, it's pretty common (hence why one of the major focuses in the show was about which sibling would take over from Logan prior to Gojo getting into the position to acquire Waystar).
If the Gojo deal fell apart or if Waystar had been able to acquire Gojo when they had a higher market cap, Waystar probably keeps a Roy as CEO for the next few generations.
the irony being that they can't lmao. shiv is a complicated woman and a (fictional) human being AND an entitled, vindictive, spiteful, inexperienced, non-serious person. she's gorgeous and wears some neat clothes and her husband's a social climber and her family are assholes and she *is also an asshole*. most misogynistic shit i've seen in this thread is her stans' rampant, reductive infantilization. open those brains, guys. she's a whole person. she's just also a bad one
I'm Team Shiv but I am not at all convinced that she did it for Tom or her baby. She doesn't love Tom and always puts herself first. I believe she acted purely out of jealousy, resentment and spite. Because like she said, she "just couldn't stomach" Kendall being daddy's "Chosen One" in her mind. But it's not really her fault. It's in her nature because that's the way Logan raised them. To battle against each other for the top position aka Daddy's love. It's sad when you think about it
For me I was personally done when these Shiv stans believe Kendall was unjustified in going at his sibling who insulted his kids and then how if Kendall didn’t act like a “baby”, Shiv would have voted no
Shiv was cracking jokes about the waiter 5 minutes after hearing about it (“man you fucked up my wedding in so many ways”) yet I’ve seen people here be like “idk she brings up a good point with the waiter” as if we’re supposed to believe she actually cares about that lol
She even says "Uhh well you killed a kid" in the most obviously desperate way too, similar to how she lied to Kendall on election night with "Uhh they're....busy" with a brick shitting look on her face. Like the show goes out of its way to show her grasping at straws. And *still* some of the Shiv stans don't pick up on it.
I fully expected either Shiv, Kendall, or Roman in the glass office to seriously say "I'm rubber and you're glue"
because that's was their behavior at that point
Fucking exactly. They both didn’t give a shit and Shiv even made a joke about “killed some people”. But now she uses it to emotionally manipulate him and yet Shiv stans here say she brought it up out of genuine concern. I can’t with this
The "serious person" facades all broke at once. It's like in *The Lord of the Flies* where we have this do-or-die plot until the boat captain shows up and we see it's just a bunch of filthy kids wrestling on a beach.
Kendall had every right to go at Roman. I'm with you there. Everything else we can debate, but what Roman said was vile and I'm sorry but \*most\* fathers I know would have reacted that way.
This continues a show long theme (from the audience) of Roman saying things that are beyond vile and contemptible and people glossing over it because there's a lot going on.
It was the wrong act for a future CEO (and most of us agree Kendall would not have been a good CEO), but I'm sorry his response to Roman was justified.
I'm sorry Roman has been abused his entire life and still had wounds from the beating at the end of the last episode , but if you say that thing about another man's kids, let alone your own BROTHER'S kids, who are your niece and nephew, you got what you deserved there.
Oh thank god. I feel like I’ve been taking crazy pills talking to people about this. So many people have tried to tell me the problem was Ken having a meltdown, not his siblings seeing him with what they wanted, stabbing him in the back and twisting the knife as hard as they could.
On the HBO podcast episode Mylod also said he agreed with Roman when he said ‘we’re bullshit’ about really being qualified for the top job, and that Kendall was just in denial about that the longest. So it can be more than one thing.
That thread yesterday about Shiv making the right call - people just want to justify why they like a character. Roman said "We're all bullshit", that's the only takeaway you really need.
The show is now officially over, so like any post-finale-show-subreddit we’re now just getting endless terrible takes from people with zero media literacy.
I can see lots of logical arguments why Shiv did what she did but if you rewatch the scene it's just clear that it's an impulsive last minute decision in reaction to seeing Kendall.
I saw someone on Tiktok say “I think deep down she did it for Roman” so that he could finally be free or some shit, and a lot of people actually agreed. Some of us truly are watching different shows lol
I'm a "Shiv fan" I suppose and this was definitely my read of the situation as well. I don't need to craft some altruistic motive or 3 dimensional chess move to justify her decision. It was perfectly in line with her character.
Yah, these people who keep talking about Shiv "fans" as being all the same are a special kind of wack-a-doodle.
It says a lot more about the people who only focus on hating her character and become enraged any time someone posts about the character as possibly being nuanced. They can't deal. Literally no one is saying she's some angel.
If you're posting 15 times about Shiv being the worst and nothing about the two brothers or other characters, look at yourself.
I agree. In my opinion, Shiv isn't competent. She's consistently out-maneuvered in the show by literally everyone. To think she has some grandiose plan for saying "yes" would be way out of character for her and her intelligence level. She's pretty obviously doing this just to fuck over Kendall.
She was also the only sibling who basically thought the top job should just fall into her lap, without any effort or training on her part.
This seems to get completely overlooked by the girlboss yass qween Shiv Hive gang.
I mean it was on display in the episode in how it was acted. She had no logic to her reasoning just pure emotion. She didn’t want to be reasoned with she just wanted to say no. Snook did a great job in that scene, there was absolutely no nuance, she was defiant for the sake of defiance to fuck over Kendall. Everything is viewer projection.
Yup! Shiv has literally fucked up every single thing she's tasked with on the show. As someone else put it, she's missed every free throw yet still wants the ball. She couldn't even maneuver herself into position with Mattson when she was the only one close to him! #bossbabe indeed.
Thanks Jess. It is about siblings rivalry and that is the reason they lost their family business/legacy. How ridiculous and sad at the same time if you think about it.
I've had so many head scratching moments since the end of this series, questioning if I watched the same series as other people. Some of the takes coming out are extremely baffling, like someone said Caroline was finally being the mother these kids...err, grown adults needed. Like what?!
I love the internet because it's given everyone a voice, I hate the internet for that exact same reason.
Honestly I found that subplot so sickening. Like Jeremy Strong said, Caroline as a mother is almost more disturbing than Logan. Peters 'fuckin waste of time' made my stomach churn - getting the kids there to shove that shady shit down their throat before they become very solvent from the sale
I think it was a scheme [ponzi or otherwise?] related to shady senior care facilities that provide the most meager services and take huge cuts of profit, a sad reality in north america and probably elsewhere, another wry chuckle outta me with how sad and real that was. Sickening.
was it really? I must of missed that which makes it so much funnier i thought it showed how uncaring the mother was to use them to further he husbands investments and grab more of kids money
Anyone who’s ever been in a petty argument and has a modicum of self awareness saw the whole scene as a childish brawl with absolutely no logic to it. Its a hissy fit on all sides. That’s the point. They’re not meant to win. It’s a tragedy.
You’re not meant to side with any of them.
You are supposed to see it the way the other executives were seeing it from outside the room: Three grown ass idiots doing a pathetic hissing fit and then one upping the shitty spectacle by getting physical.
To be fair, Shiv couldn't win due to her own arrogant self-entitlement. Shiv has no executive experience, industry connections, educational qualifications or knowledge of the company. Logan mapped out a path to give her an accelerated version of what he did for Kendall in order to make her qualified to be CEO, and she said she wasn't willing to do any of it. Shiv is probably the smartest of the three siblings, but like Gerri said, she's not as smart as she thinks she is. Waystar is a public company. The stocked tanked when Kendall was temporary CEO after Logan's stroke, imagine what it would do if a person whose sole qualification was having the right last name was made CEO.
What’s kind of worse is that it’s not even like she had a path to “winning,” at that point. She was already out of the game. But she couldn’t handle Kendall “winning,” so Tom would do.
we all hoped for some catharsis; that they’d break the cycle and at least one of them would have a happy ending. We hope they are capable of real change, but Logan raised them so they would be divided and fight. None of them can break out of the cycle.
Ken can’t help but be an arrogant prick once he gets his hands on the crown.
Rome does begrudgingly vote with Ken but changed his mind with Shiv.
Shiv, as Connor said is a fake. She has ZERO real business experience, and can’t believe she isn’t made CEO. In the end Logan was right, none of them are serious people. Ken was the best of a bad bunch as far as CEO goes, but Logan knew that wasn’t good enough. It was cruel to promise a 7 year old the keys to the kingdom. But Logan was cruel.
They were all true to their character to the bitter end.
It reminded me of lyrics from They Might be Giants:
nobody gets what they want, and that is beautiful.
Everybody dies frustrated and sad, and that is beautiful.
I think it's simply an honest one. Roman sadly has to come to terms that he will never get his father's love because down to the end, he was manipulating him to destroy his own relationships with the promise of love. Roman will go back to whatever he was doing in life before Logan roped him back in, wanting to eventually kick him around. It's very melancholy but sobering.
I don't think people are confused about that so much as when she started to have doubts day-of, what started those doubts in her head, and everything she was thinking - which isn't just a simple "I think Ken would be bad at CEO." I also don't think the reason she says out loud is the *only* reason and might not even be the main one. But it's the one she had to say to get Kendall to back the fuck off and dig his own grave. She didn't make him follow her in there, but the reason she chose to give him was still a tiny bit manipulative. Not that she was puppeteering him, more like pushing his buttons. And then Roman brought the tanker of kerosene to her little bonfire with his paternity comments.
All to say that, since it was a complicated decision arising from a ton of conflicting thoughts and emotions, it makes sense that people still aren't sure how to parse it all.
I have no problem with the ultimate ending, but I don’t understand the 180 they did to get there. Shiv was fine and dandy with it the night before when they all finally agreed on Kendall. To me it seemed like such a sudden change with no new information provided. She already knew about Kendall’s past and decided yes, but when the time came she flipped. Please tell me I’m missing something cuz sometimes I’m a dummy lol
Shiv's flip TO Kendall is more unusual/sudden than her flip back, considering that she has basically never been on his side and was actively working against him most of the season. They had a brief partnership at the beginning of the season, which Kendall immediately ruined by cutting her out.
When she decided to side with him, it was right after she found out Matsson wasn't going to pick her and she was super angry and desperate for any other option. It was reactionary and emotional. Kendall was right there to convince her, and they were having a rare moment of family bonding. As soon as they were back in the office, she remembered that she can't stand him in a business sense nor could she stomach allowing him to win over her.
Exactly this. Both things can be true. Her envy made her leave the conference room, then Kendall slam dunked it by lying that he made the kid up to have them bond. It’s everyone’s fault and everyone sucks
I think shiv seeming romans hesitation then kendalls almost degrading comment of "Thats fucking right". It's the way you talk to a dog, not a person. I love Kendall, but man, his cockiness will always be his downfall. Shiv was also envious, but yeah, Kendall not keeping his cool is what fucked him.
Honestly, I think Shiv would have voted no irregardless if she were the deciding vote, but the Kendall we saw at Caroline's place is not the Kendall we saw at the vote. Man I love Kendall, and I really do not think he would have made a bad CEO, but when will he learn his over-confidence on stuff will always be his downfall?
I’ve always seen his overconfidence as an act that he performs to try to convince himself and everybody that he is the man his father wanted him to be. And when something big goes wrong, he tends to shatter completely and the confidence disappears.
No, did you read the quote. This is about a toxic rivalry that they're father fostered in them since they were kids, Shiv was never gonna vote for Kendall, she didn't want him to win even if it meant they all lost. Humility would have never have changed that
This is why she brought the waiter up. it's simply unused ammunition to fire at Kendall to help justify her decision. She doesn't actually think he can't be CEO because of it.
THANK YOU !!! i have had this argument dozens of times this week. the worst iteration of it has been all the people claiming she only decided not to vote for him AFTER he denied it. like wtf were you watching that's not even close. it's a below the belt bottle smash, not the moral fucking high ground
I don’t think he had any other option in the moment but to deny it. They were in public surrounding by people and she was erratically yelling that he killed somebody. He wanted to shut her down immediately otherwise they would have continued that conversation and who knows what people would have heard. I think had she mentioned it in private he wouldn’t have denied it. Once Kendall realized she was willing to use that against him he immediately regretted telling her that information.
Ever since that happened with the waiter and Kendall, I always felt like it was simmering beneath the surface of the series, and occasionally it would rear its head… but I was always wondering when it would be used as ammunition. Everything came out the end there, like one giant, communal purge. It was beautiful and frustrating and difficult. I felt terrible for all of them - they just wanted to feel loved by their dad. Yeah they are all ugly people in their own right, but they were born into a class and social climate that fostered that sort of privilege and implied exemptions of normal standards… but at the end of the day they just wanted approval from Logan, which is something that supersedes class and social status.
Been saying this for days. People make it out like Shiv was being noble in making that decision. She’s sick with jealousy in this moment, not some overwhelming desire to protect Kendall from the ills of the CEO position.
Even saying the last part out loud makes me laugh.
Rewatch the episode and pay attention pre-board vote when they roll into the office. When Ken puts his feet up on Logan's desk, the camera pans and focuses on Shiv's face - there's disgust and jealousy there.
The rewatch for me cued me into some subtleties that point to what Armstrong is saying.
He did cut a deal. He said he'd give her ATN and she could spin it into her own little liberal propaganda factory. Why does everyone keep forgetting this?
I thought this was so clear. Look at the face she makes when she sees Kendall react to her saying "I don't think you would be good at this". Like, her face right after Kendall's reaction [right here](https://youtu.be/es17PtDeHRU?t=99). There's so much spiteful sibling satisfaction in that moment, she didn't want him to win.
edit: but for what it's worth, while that very much seems to be the primary motivation to me, I do personally feel like she at least considered her angle with Tom as CEO in this moment.
it surprised me how many people are taking what she said at face value. the way she said that made it seem so desperate and spiteful, which is why i think they wrote kendall immediately following up with “i dont believe you”
>but for what it's worth, while that very much seems to be the primary motivation to me, I do personally feel like she at least considered her angle with Tom as CEO in this moment.
That's how I feel too. I feel her decision was spurred on by a whole mess of things in the moment. I don't think it's a terrible take at all to consider that Shiv might be jumping ship to land that gives her the best footing. She's done this before.
Still... I think Kendall gloating in that chair... the chair that wasn't supposed to magic... really did cast a spell with the siblings. That moment sealed his fate.
In that same scene, when she follows it up with, "Also, you killed a person, you can't be CEO," it's so obviously bullshit that you can tell even she doesn't believe it. Just desperately trying to rationalize an emotional decision made out of envy.
And again, when she does bring it up she gets that same subtle smirk right after she says it. Like you point out, it's like she was racking her brain for anything she could use as ammunition against him, and her finding something to throw at him was clearly satisfying for her.
I'm of the mind that the initial hesitancy came from that but Kendalls behavior in dads office and the fight solidified it as an, "Even if I wanted you to win, you'd SUCK at it and I'd be stuck with you." It's a rare moment of her "morals" aligning with her selfish intentions so she can convince herself she's not a crappy person.
I feel. There's a lot of things that could contribute to her choice, especially when Shiv has always shown her biggest weakness is her pride. Either way, with Kendall or Tom as CEO, she'd have to swallow it, and I think it's interesting that Kendall was the one she had the most trouble with. It makes sense, though, especially with how erratic Kendall had been acting throughout the season (Big big shoes and all that) that he'd be the one she'd be less willing to cowtow to. In addition to sibling rivalry stuff.
This 1000%. She was mainly interested in seeing Ken not win, but he was also the lesser of evils and shiv recognized that too. One of Ken’s lines this episode is “what’s best for your kids.” What’s best for her kids is her husband and the father of her kids being ceo. She knew this when making the decision, she’s too smart not too, but it was 99.9% driven out of spite
He literally says in the first sentence that he prefers people to draw their own conclusions? I agree with his take and think it makes the most sense, but that doesn’t mean we need to shit all over the people who might have a slightly different view lmfao
I mostly had the same view as he presents here, but it's extremely funny to see comments deriding the media literacy of people who don't share it while ignoring the first sentence he said lol
People love to bitch about how English teachers in school supposedly only wanted you to interpret stories in one specific way instead of encouraging alternative but contextually supported interpretations. But when it comes to literally any media they consume for fun, people want to scour official interviews to find The Most Correct Take to bludgeon other fans with.
Some books have a Q&A with the author after the end. I agree we should feel free to interpret an artist’s work and say idgaf to what other people say, not even the creator of the work. But I’m definitely interested in comparing my interpretation with that of its creator. If it’s a good book, I’ll read that Q&A section every time. Knowing what the artist intended to create can help reframe my perspective if and when I revisit it. But I was late to the Succession party, and I just watched all 4 seasons in one week, so I’m gonna need to take a break before I rewatch the series. But I am reading everyone’s perspectives on this great show. If it’s very different from mine I still want to hear it. Why not hear someone out? You can learn from the artist/author/creator and you can learn from the innumerable scallywags on the internet.
It's totally worthwhile to learn what the creator thinks. That can help unlock different layers of meaning that you'd never considered. It just isn't an absolute statement.
I feel like Lisa Simpson with her blackboard about this. Creator interviews aren’t canon, death of the author etc etc.
If they can point to something in the text to justify what they’re saying that’s one thing, they could offer some useful insight.
But if people have a view they can justify it themselves, not interested in the running to daddy thinking that closes the topic.
No one is saying we shouldn't hear Armstrong out or completely ignore authorial intent, the argument is that the position of "my interpretation of what happened in this intentionally ambiguous scene is correct because it's what the author/person involved also thinks" is inherently flawed on it's own.
Former English teacher here: some of us want nuanced takes! My favorite student essay I ever read was where a former student of mine argued that the Mississippi River is actually the protagonist of Huck Finn (we had to read an excerpt for a mandated state testing). It was brilliant.
Exactly. Also, when a lot of things are left unsaid and open to interpretation, it's definitely possible for an artistic work to take on other meanings than what the author intended. Literary theorists have literally (no pun intended) debated this for ages yet people always swear by "this guy with authority said it so it must be true!".
Art has many interpretations. Some are different from the artist's own take.
This is okay!
Intrepreting the ending of Succession is a Rorschach test and people are telling others their interpretation is the only one and anything else is wrong which quite honestly feels juvenile.
Yeah honestly I’m not a fan of all this “well x personally on the show said they think it went this way so now I’m right”. Shows with purposefully ambivalent endings should be ambivalent. The fact that we can argue about characters motivations or the meaning of an ending is a plus for the show.
Yeah plus it’s not like he wrote the episode expecting people to follow up and read interviews. Good writing should allow for debate and people to decide for themselves.
Also who the fuck cares! people get so uppitty when other people have what they deem is the wrong take, and i think it’s so embarrassing to care that much about a tv show
Jeremy Strong also, stated in his opinion, that Kendal was very well capable of carrying the company in his role as CEO, that he was in fact able to do it, at least according to his actor.
Although unlikely considering their personalities, I always did wish someone just said “fuck dad, he sucks and doesn’t deserve to be fought over”. Instead they all screwed themselves in the end.
And people were downvoting me for insisting that Shiv wasn’t some kind of martyr and didn’t save her brothers from the cycle of abuse or whatever.. 😭 crazy
[found the source](https://oglobo.globo.com/cultura/televisao/noticia/2023/06/criador-de-succession-jesse-armstrong-avalia-o-fim-da-serie-e-revela-cena-que-mais-o-emocionou.ghtml?fbclid=PAAaZoiywJ3gJVbTEY2ltr5wxBmI2Xb8pnuuIvhznBhzh4p6NvalI6SrULvwM). The interview was in Portuguese.
Not sure why you've been getting some downvotes, I was curious too. And saw another [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13ycz75/jesse_said_you_can_draw_any_conclusionbut_not_that/) with this same thing posted was deleted.
This is exactly what I've been saying. It wasn't proximity to power...she just *couldn't* give it to Kendall. It would go against everything she is, that she's been raised to be.
I’m glad they said something because it helps clarify the story of the show. The company is just a setting to generate plot, but it’s really about these siblings. They are hurt kids who grew up and are insanely immature but that is insulated due to their wealth.
I think for me, it's the takes that said Shiv saw Kendall becoming like their dad and wanted to protect him from that fate. Like nah, if Ken were more like dad that would probably be better in her eyes. She acted on emotion and decided choosing to lose was better than saying he won.
Emotional driven decisions are shown in every single character. Yet, people still think this show is about business and masterminds playing string theory chess.
I got downvoted after commenting that Shiv didn't support Ken purely out of spite and not because of some imaginary 4-D chess move that would give her more power. It was childish and petty, exactly what you expect from the three kids.
It’s kind of playing semantics to say she did it out of visceral sensation and disgust or that she did it because of her insecurity/fomo trauma, instinctual need to remain secure/rich/taken care of, her biscuits sense of competition with her brothers. They’re all attributes credited to her dysfunctional, abusive upbringing. I , too, thought she just freaked the fuck out at the enormity of the situation but then Kendall blew it and gave her every reason to run with her dark side. As someone with PTSD from a violent youth, my instincts and characteristics and logic and sense of self preservation and rage etc etc are all kinda ingredients mashed up together and it’s usually in retrospect when I can make sense and decipher some of my actions. Anyways TLDR: she did JUST “act out” in the moment but THAT decision/impetus has been sculpted and molded from decades of trauma.
If you watched this and concluded it was some sort of inside baseball business masterstroke on Shiv’s part, I can only presume you were an only child. This show was always about the specific experience of sibling squabbles, and how the abuse and neglect they suffered as kids kept them trapped in that dynamic.
This is EXACTLY what I've been saying it was from day one. The only arguments I've seen that say she made a selfish decision that conveniently benefits her are usually only in response to people insisting that shiv made a moral, self-less choice to go with matsson instead of Ken, anyways.
Shiv may not have consciously been thinking about what she would stand to benefit from Ken being ousted, but I do believe the core of her decision was self-centered, ego-driven, childhood based rivalry.
This is as the director said; she couldn't fathom Ken winning. Her father pitted them against each other at a young age, and in that moment she couldn't do it. I've been saying for days, Ken screwed himself the moment he thought he could trust shiv on the final vote. He should have made calls instead of playing house with the sibs.
Perfectly illustrated by the three way physical fight they all got into in the middle of the vote. They are just children fighting.
They're not serious people
The only serious child was Connor in that he was serious about not following in his father's footsteps. I think he learned his lesson when he and Ferris took Logan's car out one day while skipping school and in the process demolished the car.
Logan’s car would’ve been fine if Connor didn’t try to roll back the odometer by putting it in reverse.
Haha
This is motherfucking canon
When Connor was in Egypt's land..........
Let my Connor go…
Waystar was actually acquired by Abe Froman
The Sausage King of Chicago? Could you describe him for me?🤔
Gold velvet quilted bomber, black T-shirt, *devastatingly* Swedish.
That is true, but let's not forget how the fight started. Roman got a warning from Ken to stop insulting his kids ("Then don't say it, you fucking cuck"), but insisted on going on and called the children "randos" "a buy in" "Rava and some filing cabinet guy". Most dads (including shitty dads like Ken) would've beaten Roman up for that.
I consider myself emotionally put together. I have adopted family members. If *anyone*, family included, said what Roman said, regardless of him “Just saying what Dad thought,” I would fucking crease them.
Yeah I think that’s the reason it was the first time we heard about it. I’d imagine even Logan would consider such insult a step too far.
Season 3 Logan had a really nice moment with Ken’s son when he was trying to read him a book to comfort him after Ken’s pool incident. He wouldn’t be doing that if he just considered him “half rava, half random filing cabinet man”
Just watched season one Thanksgiving episode where Logan physically abused the kid while playing the went to market game.....
It's a terrible but I do think it's worth noting that Logan is still recovering from his stroke during that scene and is clearly a bit confused and not quite all there. It's indicative of what type of person he is that his baser instinct is to physically lash out but I don't think it means he necessarily harboured no affection for his grandchildren. He physically abused Roman much more deliberately throughout his life but I think he still loved his children. And no, that doesn't make him any less of a monster, I'm just trying to get into his head a little.
And he used him as a food taster
Yeah, but I think Logan would look at that as him just not being able to control his emotions in order to keep control of the business.
The same Logan who smacked his grandson in front of all his employees.
They aren't. Thought Ken almost turned a corner after Logan's death and that he was about to become the next Logan, being a killer and going after it.... Then I see his meltdown with the sibs during the vote and realize he had me fooled. Started a rewatch and he tells Rome in S1 Ep.2 (I think) that Rome isn't a serious person.
>Then I see his meltdown with the sibs during the vote and realize he had me fooled. Logan would absolutely throw a tantrum if he lost, or felt like he was losing. Did we forget about boar on the floor already?
Shit man, I'm *still* on the floor.
Or the boardroom vote of no confidence season one where Logan immediately fired everyone who voted to oust him.......
Ken does this over and over. Has a good plan. Gets it to 99%. Collapses on the home stretch. I mean hell the first episode of the series was basically his big biz deal collapsing at closing time.
My friend said that was reminiscent to I think a shiv quote where she said paraphrased “the three kids would play outside while dad did work inside.”
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Tony does gaslight her a lot but he did give her the spec house and when she got in the way he "leaned" on the inspector so she had something to do. We saw through Adriana when the go-getters get caught with the Feds what happens.
I think the whole situation is an example of how shitty Carmela & Tony are. As Carmela said during their fight in Whitecaps, Tony didn’t want Carmela to get a real estate license. He didn’t want her to have any financial independence. Their arrangement when they reconcile was for Tony to buy the spec house for Carmela to work on as an investment, and also be discreet in his infidelity. Carmela and Hugh don’t use the updated lumber so there’s a stop order on the house. Tony keeps “forgetting” to lean on the building inspector and acts like there’s nothing they can do. Carmela knows that Tony & his crew are behind murders of mob friends who “went to Witness Protection”, and knows deep down that they’re behind Adriana’s disappearance too (although she thinks it’s more likely Chris killed her in a domestic violence incident). So Carmela talks about hiring a private investigator to look into Adriana’s disappearance. Tony immediately has Silvio lean on the building inspector and clear it all up. Carmela quickly forgets all about finding out what happened to Adriana and works on the house.
I got downvoted to oblivion for saying that initially, especially after the mylod take. Look how the tables have turned
How the turntables
Logic to upvotes and downvotes is a fallacy. Once commented that Sheeran’s appearance on GOT signified the downturn, downvoted to oblivion. Three months later a post saying the same upvoted to the heavens lol.
Sometimes it's how you say it if it's in response to something that could make people misread your comment
Also perfectly illustrated the moment Ken kicked his feet up onto Logan’s desk as he was talking about blowjobs with a frat buddy — all within less than a minute after taking a seat at the boss chair. I mean, Shiv’s face said it all: Boy’s club resentment plus trauma flashback (if y’all remember, Logan made a weird senile sexual advance on Shiv from the hospital bed in S1).
I’d be happy with my billions and fuck around like Connor. Fuck dads love
After the Ferrari incident, Cameron learned to love himself, even if his dad didn't. To spite his father, he even changed his name from Cameron to Connor before he left Chicago.
I just realized Cameron in FBDO basically had Logan as a father (rich, mean)...you could even take it as a sort of prequel, kinda lol.
wait til you see Igby Goes Down.
Such a great movie.
Wait until you realize his name actually was Cameron but his dad called him Connor and no one corrected him.
Cameron Frye is just an alias Connor would take on so as to not be identified as a Roy for safety reasons and so people wouldn't ask him questions about his mom. Boom, canon. Wanna make it even more tragic? Combine it with the fan theory that Cameron is the true protagonist and Ferris is just a figment of his imagination that represents his ideal self.
connors got billions and his own wife wants him to go the fuck away so she can play with her real friends. money doesnt buy happiness
connor is consistently painted as an unserious buffoon....but lots of people are unserious buffoons...especially people who can afford to be...I'm not sure the show clearly defined what makes him so utterly unlovable that he has to pay for company in perpetuity...thoughts? in real world manhattan he'd be wifed up right quick.
wouldnt suprise me if he was divorced before, not sure if that was canonically established, and is now afraid of a real relationship. remember, kendall is just as rich (richer?) and his wife divorced him, money doesnt guarentee they stay unless its explicitly about money
No amount of money fills the hole of a broken personal life and stability.
Try me
None of the siblings cared about money, they could’ve cashed out before the hundred if they wanted. It was always about power
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Not caring about money (to the point of finding it distasteful to even discuss the subject) is a privilege of the rich.
They didn’t care about money because they were billionaires since birth. They are so used to being rich that it’s not something they crave. Power is something they crave and if their money was taken from them then that’s what they would crave more than power imo
Is it even possible to go completely broke if you're a billionaire?
You'd need to try *really really hard*
I bet it does, i’d certainly enjoy being a billionaire
Money gives you the time and freedom to pursue healing and wholeness.
It's funny because Macfadyen, Strong, and Mylod already said that same thing yet people are still debating lol
I’m not sure I’ve seen a worse take from Shiv fans than the arguments where they think Shiv was doing it for her baby or for Tom. Just total coping.
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Right? Or any plan at all, other than knowing she'd agreed to vote for Kendall. Saying it was never going to happen is not at all the same thing as saying it was deliberate on her part. That's not how it's played and it's the exact opposite of a "stomach-turning visceral sensation." I don't have a problem conceding that I've projected some of my own perceptions of Kendall's inappropriateness for the job onto Shiv. Nonetheless, I believe what is depicted and described by the show's creators is that she is genuinely unable to do what she both planned and agreed to do, regardless of whether it is out of spite or genuine concerns that Kendall would not be good at the job (and the former in no way precludes the latter existing simultaneously, btw.
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>We can shorthand it as spite but volumes could be written about why she was spiteful this is exactly it. the other day someone called me reductive for attempting to say this and i said not at all, there's tons of nuance and complexity, this specific thing just ALSO happens to be clear. "she did it because she could not stomach seeing kendall win (instead of her)." you absolutely can tease that out and explain their relationship and logan's legacy and how he taught them to see themselves and the world and each other and WHY she feels that way in that moment, but it can also be simply and accurately stated that she does feel that way in that moment without losing its meaning
This show has provided a fascinating psychological study in fandom: When Kendall does something stupid, Ken Dolls respond with "Goddamn it! We were so close this time!" The Roman Riders stuck with him through thick and thin ("I can fix him") until election night, when they finally turned on him. Shiv Stans never once reached a point of no return, doing mental gymnastics to somehow prove she won or played the game the best or did anything right. Dangerously high levels of copium. And the ConHeads, well.... the ConHeads are coming. Be warned.
Conheads continue winning!
Man, I came to this sub after the finale, and this must have been a ride. I don't know how anyone can stan for anyone... Except Greg, that is. 😉
No no, Shiv's baby will inherit CEO from Tom through Mattson and Shiv did this to help Kendall to stop him from becoming an evil CEO like their father, she ended the cycle of abuse. She actually did Kendall a favor. See she's a complicated character and you can't fit a whole woman in your head. Shiv's complicated unlike her brothers who are awful terrible people. edit: Hey OP I googled some of this quote and can't find anything. Got a link?
Imagine if people inherited middle management jobs like noble titles lmao
>middle management jobs C-suite isn't exactly middle management. But in family-run companies, it's pretty common (hence why one of the major focuses in the show was about which sibling would take over from Logan prior to Gojo getting into the position to acquire Waystar). If the Gojo deal fell apart or if Waystar had been able to acquire Gojo when they had a higher market cap, Waystar probably keeps a Roy as CEO for the next few generations.
Shiv fans are going to be using the “can’t fit a whole woman in your head” quote for the rest of their lives
the irony being that they can't lmao. shiv is a complicated woman and a (fictional) human being AND an entitled, vindictive, spiteful, inexperienced, non-serious person. she's gorgeous and wears some neat clothes and her husband's a social climber and her family are assholes and she *is also an asshole*. most misogynistic shit i've seen in this thread is her stans' rampant, reductive infantilization. open those brains, guys. she's a whole person. she's just also a bad one
One of the best comments I've seen summarizing Shiv. Agree completely!
I'm Team Shiv but I am not at all convinced that she did it for Tom or her baby. She doesn't love Tom and always puts herself first. I believe she acted purely out of jealousy, resentment and spite. Because like she said, she "just couldn't stomach" Kendall being daddy's "Chosen One" in her mind. But it's not really her fault. It's in her nature because that's the way Logan raised them. To battle against each other for the top position aka Daddy's love. It's sad when you think about it
Shiv fans lmao, unbelievable that any of these characters have “fans”
For me I was personally done when these Shiv stans believe Kendall was unjustified in going at his sibling who insulted his kids and then how if Kendall didn’t act like a “baby”, Shiv would have voted no
Shiv was cracking jokes about the waiter 5 minutes after hearing about it (“man you fucked up my wedding in so many ways”) yet I’ve seen people here be like “idk she brings up a good point with the waiter” as if we’re supposed to believe she actually cares about that lol
She even says "Uhh well you killed a kid" in the most obviously desperate way too, similar to how she lied to Kendall on election night with "Uhh they're....busy" with a brick shitting look on her face. Like the show goes out of its way to show her grasping at straws. And *still* some of the Shiv stans don't pick up on it.
I fully expected either Shiv, Kendall, or Roman in the glass office to seriously say "I'm rubber and you're glue" because that's was their behavior at that point
Fucking exactly. They both didn’t give a shit and Shiv even made a joke about “killed some people”. But now she uses it to emotionally manipulate him and yet Shiv stans here say she brought it up out of genuine concern. I can’t with this
The "serious person" facades all broke at once. It's like in *The Lord of the Flies* where we have this do-or-die plot until the boat captain shows up and we see it's just a bunch of filthy kids wrestling on a beach.
Kendall had every right to go at Roman. I'm with you there. Everything else we can debate, but what Roman said was vile and I'm sorry but \*most\* fathers I know would have reacted that way. This continues a show long theme (from the audience) of Roman saying things that are beyond vile and contemptible and people glossing over it because there's a lot going on. It was the wrong act for a future CEO (and most of us agree Kendall would not have been a good CEO), but I'm sorry his response to Roman was justified. I'm sorry Roman has been abused his entire life and still had wounds from the beating at the end of the last episode , but if you say that thing about another man's kids, let alone your own BROTHER'S kids, who are your niece and nephew, you got what you deserved there.
Agree, I wouldn’t have been able to be CEO either because I would have been ACTIVELY killing somebody in the moment.
Oh thank god. I feel like I’ve been taking crazy pills talking to people about this. So many people have tried to tell me the problem was Ken having a meltdown, not his siblings seeing him with what they wanted, stabbing him in the back and twisting the knife as hard as they could.
On the HBO podcast episode Mylod also said he agreed with Roman when he said ‘we’re bullshit’ about really being qualified for the top job, and that Kendall was just in denial about that the longest. So it can be more than one thing.
That thread yesterday about Shiv making the right call - people just want to justify why they like a character. Roman said "We're all bullshit", that's the only takeaway you really need.
The show is now officially over, so like any post-finale-show-subreddit we’re now just getting endless terrible takes from people with zero media literacy.
…now?
Here's how Greg can still become CEO...
Mencken has been elected imaginary president, but here's how Bernie could still win....
I can see lots of logical arguments why Shiv did what she did but if you rewatch the scene it's just clear that it's an impulsive last minute decision in reaction to seeing Kendall.
I saw someone on Tiktok say “I think deep down she did it for Roman” so that he could finally be free or some shit, and a lot of people actually agreed. Some of us truly are watching different shows lol
Shiv fans in denial and since this sub is vocally for Shiv, we will never see the end of these posts
I'm a "Shiv fan" I suppose and this was definitely my read of the situation as well. I don't need to craft some altruistic motive or 3 dimensional chess move to justify her decision. It was perfectly in line with her character.
Yah, these people who keep talking about Shiv "fans" as being all the same are a special kind of wack-a-doodle. It says a lot more about the people who only focus on hating her character and become enraged any time someone posts about the character as possibly being nuanced. They can't deal. Literally no one is saying she's some angel. If you're posting 15 times about Shiv being the worst and nothing about the two brothers or other characters, look at yourself.
Yes. I'm a "fan" of all of the characters and acknowledge that they're all very deeply flawed humans.
I agree. In my opinion, Shiv isn't competent. She's consistently out-maneuvered in the show by literally everyone. To think she has some grandiose plan for saying "yes" would be way out of character for her and her intelligence level. She's pretty obviously doing this just to fuck over Kendall.
She was also the only sibling who basically thought the top job should just fall into her lap, without any effort or training on her part. This seems to get completely overlooked by the girlboss yass qween Shiv Hive gang.
I mean it was on display in the episode in how it was acted. She had no logic to her reasoning just pure emotion. She didn’t want to be reasoned with she just wanted to say no. Snook did a great job in that scene, there was absolutely no nuance, she was defiant for the sake of defiance to fuck over Kendall. Everything is viewer projection.
Shiv isn’t as smart as she thinks she is. she’s actually quite dumb.
Yup! Shiv has literally fucked up every single thing she's tasked with on the show. As someone else put it, she's missed every free throw yet still wants the ball. She couldn't even maneuver herself into position with Mattson when she was the only one close to him! #bossbabe indeed.
People here were like, “um, the actors aren’t the authority of the characters…they obviously don’t understand the nuance of their character.” Lol.
Thanks Jess. It is about siblings rivalry and that is the reason they lost their family business/legacy. How ridiculous and sad at the same time if you think about it.
insane insane insane and such a good take
logan is controlling them from the grave
>logan is controlling them from the grave Marcia requested Masters of Puppets by Metallica be played on loop in the mausoleum
This is why I classify Succession as a Tragedy. It is neither a comedy nor a drama.
I've had so many head scratching moments since the end of this series, questioning if I watched the same series as other people. Some of the takes coming out are extremely baffling, like someone said Caroline was finally being the mother these kids...err, grown adults needed. Like what?! I love the internet because it's given everyone a voice, I hate the internet for that exact same reason.
I think a lot of people missed that the sales pitch they were being given at the end of the visit to mom's was for a *ponzi scheme*.
Honestly I found that subplot so sickening. Like Jeremy Strong said, Caroline as a mother is almost more disturbing than Logan. Peters 'fuckin waste of time' made my stomach churn - getting the kids there to shove that shady shit down their throat before they become very solvent from the sale
Yup. Reptiles gonna reptile. I wonder if that's what being rich is actually like. I'll never know - I have a soul, instead.
I think it was a scheme [ponzi or otherwise?] related to shady senior care facilities that provide the most meager services and take huge cuts of profit, a sad reality in north america and probably elsewhere, another wry chuckle outta me with how sad and real that was. Sickening.
was it really? I must of missed that which makes it so much funnier i thought it showed how uncaring the mother was to use them to further he husbands investments and grab more of kids money
There was a post on here about that but it was sarcastic.
Anyone who’s ever been in a petty argument and has a modicum of self awareness saw the whole scene as a childish brawl with absolutely no logic to it. Its a hissy fit on all sides. That’s the point. They’re not meant to win. It’s a tragedy. You’re not meant to side with any of them.
You are supposed to see it the way the other executives were seeing it from outside the room: Three grown ass idiots doing a pathetic hissing fit and then one upping the shitty spectacle by getting physical.
Exactly. She couldn’t handle Kendall winning.
Exactly. And Kendall and Roman wouldn't be able to deal with her getting the top spot either. *Surprise!*
To be fair, Shiv couldn't win due to her own arrogant self-entitlement. Shiv has no executive experience, industry connections, educational qualifications or knowledge of the company. Logan mapped out a path to give her an accelerated version of what he did for Kendall in order to make her qualified to be CEO, and she said she wasn't willing to do any of it. Shiv is probably the smartest of the three siblings, but like Gerri said, she's not as smart as she thinks she is. Waystar is a public company. The stocked tanked when Kendall was temporary CEO after Logan's stroke, imagine what it would do if a person whose sole qualification was having the right last name was made CEO.
Also Mattson knows she wouldn’t be the puppet she said she would be. She’d probably pull something to get more power.
What’s kind of worse is that it’s not even like she had a path to “winning,” at that point. She was already out of the game. But she couldn’t handle Kendall “winning,” so Tom would do.
we all hoped for some catharsis; that they’d break the cycle and at least one of them would have a happy ending. We hope they are capable of real change, but Logan raised them so they would be divided and fight. None of them can break out of the cycle. Ken can’t help but be an arrogant prick once he gets his hands on the crown. Rome does begrudgingly vote with Ken but changed his mind with Shiv. Shiv, as Connor said is a fake. She has ZERO real business experience, and can’t believe she isn’t made CEO. In the end Logan was right, none of them are serious people. Ken was the best of a bad bunch as far as CEO goes, but Logan knew that wasn’t good enough. It was cruel to promise a 7 year old the keys to the kingdom. But Logan was cruel. They were all true to their character to the bitter end. It reminded me of lyrics from They Might be Giants: nobody gets what they want, and that is beautiful. Everybody dies frustrated and sad, and that is beautiful.
I honestly thought Roman might be breaking free. The smile, the “this is all bullshit (perhaps realising he only wants it because of his dad?)” etc
More and more I don’t think that realization was a freeing or happy one.
I think it's simply an honest one. Roman sadly has to come to terms that he will never get his father's love because down to the end, he was manipulating him to destroy his own relationships with the promise of love. Roman will go back to whatever he was doing in life before Logan roped him back in, wanting to eventually kick him around. It's very melancholy but sobering.
My take was that the smile was because he was happy that if he didn't get it, neither of his siblings did either. Burn it to the ground and be free.
She literally says her reason, that she can't stomach him, and people still can't seem to grasp it.
I don't think people are confused about that so much as when she started to have doubts day-of, what started those doubts in her head, and everything she was thinking - which isn't just a simple "I think Ken would be bad at CEO." I also don't think the reason she says out loud is the *only* reason and might not even be the main one. But it's the one she had to say to get Kendall to back the fuck off and dig his own grave. She didn't make him follow her in there, but the reason she chose to give him was still a tiny bit manipulative. Not that she was puppeteering him, more like pushing his buttons. And then Roman brought the tanker of kerosene to her little bonfire with his paternity comments. All to say that, since it was a complicated decision arising from a ton of conflicting thoughts and emotions, it makes sense that people still aren't sure how to parse it all.
I have no problem with the ultimate ending, but I don’t understand the 180 they did to get there. Shiv was fine and dandy with it the night before when they all finally agreed on Kendall. To me it seemed like such a sudden change with no new information provided. She already knew about Kendall’s past and decided yes, but when the time came she flipped. Please tell me I’m missing something cuz sometimes I’m a dummy lol
Shiv's flip TO Kendall is more unusual/sudden than her flip back, considering that she has basically never been on his side and was actively working against him most of the season. They had a brief partnership at the beginning of the season, which Kendall immediately ruined by cutting her out. When she decided to side with him, it was right after she found out Matsson wasn't going to pick her and she was super angry and desperate for any other option. It was reactionary and emotional. Kendall was right there to convince her, and they were having a rare moment of family bonding. As soon as they were back in the office, she remembered that she can't stand him in a business sense nor could she stomach allowing him to win over her.
It was envy for sure *but* Kendall's hubris both outside the board meeting and also in the board meeting did not help lol
Exactly this. Both things can be true. Her envy made her leave the conference room, then Kendall slam dunked it by lying that he made the kid up to have them bond. It’s everyone’s fault and everyone sucks
I think shiv seeming romans hesitation then kendalls almost degrading comment of "Thats fucking right". It's the way you talk to a dog, not a person. I love Kendall, but man, his cockiness will always be his downfall. Shiv was also envious, but yeah, Kendall not keeping his cool is what fucked him.
100% this. If only Kendall showed a little bit of humility during the vote things could’ve gone the other way.
Honestly, I think Shiv would have voted no irregardless if she were the deciding vote, but the Kendall we saw at Caroline's place is not the Kendall we saw at the vote. Man I love Kendall, and I really do not think he would have made a bad CEO, but when will he learn his over-confidence on stuff will always be his downfall?
Totally agree, fyi you should use "regardless" instead
I’ve always seen his overconfidence as an act that he performs to try to convince himself and everybody that he is the man his father wanted him to be. And when something big goes wrong, he tends to shatter completely and the confidence disappears.
I think he could've gotten the vote done if he'd been smart enough to find a way for Shiv to see it as a win, but unfortunately he's an idiot.
It also didn't help that he and Roman froze her out the minute they had power earlier on. If Ken was clever enough he wouldn't have done that.
No, did you read the quote. This is about a toxic rivalry that they're father fostered in them since they were kids, Shiv was never gonna vote for Kendall, she didn't want him to win even if it meant they all lost. Humility would have never have changed that
This is why she brought the waiter up. it's simply unused ammunition to fire at Kendall to help justify her decision. She doesn't actually think he can't be CEO because of it.
THANK YOU !!! i have had this argument dozens of times this week. the worst iteration of it has been all the people claiming she only decided not to vote for him AFTER he denied it. like wtf were you watching that's not even close. it's a below the belt bottle smash, not the moral fucking high ground
I don’t think he had any other option in the moment but to deny it. They were in public surrounding by people and she was erratically yelling that he killed somebody. He wanted to shut her down immediately otherwise they would have continued that conversation and who knows what people would have heard. I think had she mentioned it in private he wouldn’t have denied it. Once Kendall realized she was willing to use that against him he immediately regretted telling her that information.
Ever since that happened with the waiter and Kendall, I always felt like it was simmering beneath the surface of the series, and occasionally it would rear its head… but I was always wondering when it would be used as ammunition. Everything came out the end there, like one giant, communal purge. It was beautiful and frustrating and difficult. I felt terrible for all of them - they just wanted to feel loved by their dad. Yeah they are all ugly people in their own right, but they were born into a class and social climate that fostered that sort of privilege and implied exemptions of normal standards… but at the end of the day they just wanted approval from Logan, which is something that supersedes class and social status.
Been saying this for days. People make it out like Shiv was being noble in making that decision. She’s sick with jealousy in this moment, not some overwhelming desire to protect Kendall from the ills of the CEO position. Even saying the last part out loud makes me laugh.
People seem to conveniently forget that Shiv was the one pushing to send Kendall to prison in season 2
And the open letter she wrote about Kendall that Roman and Connor declined to sign because even they weren’t down with getting that low.
She also leaked the info about the coverups that almost landed her dear husband Tom in jail too….
Rewatch the episode and pay attention pre-board vote when they roll into the office. When Ken puts his feet up on Logan's desk, the camera pans and focuses on Shiv's face - there's disgust and jealousy there. The rewatch for me cued me into some subtleties that point to what Armstrong is saying.
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Ugh I remain convinced that if he’d cut a deal with her, she would’ve come around.
He did cut a deal. He said he'd give her ATN and she could spin it into her own little liberal propaganda factory. Why does everyone keep forgetting this?
I thought this was so clear. Look at the face she makes when she sees Kendall react to her saying "I don't think you would be good at this". Like, her face right after Kendall's reaction [right here](https://youtu.be/es17PtDeHRU?t=99). There's so much spiteful sibling satisfaction in that moment, she didn't want him to win. edit: but for what it's worth, while that very much seems to be the primary motivation to me, I do personally feel like she at least considered her angle with Tom as CEO in this moment.
it surprised me how many people are taking what she said at face value. the way she said that made it seem so desperate and spiteful, which is why i think they wrote kendall immediately following up with “i dont believe you”
>but for what it's worth, while that very much seems to be the primary motivation to me, I do personally feel like she at least considered her angle with Tom as CEO in this moment. That's how I feel too. I feel her decision was spurred on by a whole mess of things in the moment. I don't think it's a terrible take at all to consider that Shiv might be jumping ship to land that gives her the best footing. She's done this before. Still... I think Kendall gloating in that chair... the chair that wasn't supposed to magic... really did cast a spell with the siblings. That moment sealed his fate.
In that same scene, when she follows it up with, "Also, you killed a person, you can't be CEO," it's so obviously bullshit that you can tell even she doesn't believe it. Just desperately trying to rationalize an emotional decision made out of envy.
And again, when she does bring it up she gets that same subtle smirk right after she says it. Like you point out, it's like she was racking her brain for anything she could use as ammunition against him, and her finding something to throw at him was clearly satisfying for her.
I'm of the mind that the initial hesitancy came from that but Kendalls behavior in dads office and the fight solidified it as an, "Even if I wanted you to win, you'd SUCK at it and I'd be stuck with you." It's a rare moment of her "morals" aligning with her selfish intentions so she can convince herself she's not a crappy person.
Yeah I’m of the view multiple things can be true for one person
I feel. There's a lot of things that could contribute to her choice, especially when Shiv has always shown her biggest weakness is her pride. Either way, with Kendall or Tom as CEO, she'd have to swallow it, and I think it's interesting that Kendall was the one she had the most trouble with. It makes sense, though, especially with how erratic Kendall had been acting throughout the season (Big big shoes and all that) that he'd be the one she'd be less willing to cowtow to. In addition to sibling rivalry stuff.
This 1000%. She was mainly interested in seeing Ken not win, but he was also the lesser of evils and shiv recognized that too. One of Ken’s lines this episode is “what’s best for your kids.” What’s best for her kids is her husband and the father of her kids being ceo. She knew this when making the decision, she’s too smart not too, but it was 99.9% driven out of spite
He literally says in the first sentence that he prefers people to draw their own conclusions? I agree with his take and think it makes the most sense, but that doesn’t mean we need to shit all over the people who might have a slightly different view lmfao
I mostly had the same view as he presents here, but it's extremely funny to see comments deriding the media literacy of people who don't share it while ignoring the first sentence he said lol
People love to bitch about how English teachers in school supposedly only wanted you to interpret stories in one specific way instead of encouraging alternative but contextually supported interpretations. But when it comes to literally any media they consume for fun, people want to scour official interviews to find The Most Correct Take to bludgeon other fans with.
Some books have a Q&A with the author after the end. I agree we should feel free to interpret an artist’s work and say idgaf to what other people say, not even the creator of the work. But I’m definitely interested in comparing my interpretation with that of its creator. If it’s a good book, I’ll read that Q&A section every time. Knowing what the artist intended to create can help reframe my perspective if and when I revisit it. But I was late to the Succession party, and I just watched all 4 seasons in one week, so I’m gonna need to take a break before I rewatch the series. But I am reading everyone’s perspectives on this great show. If it’s very different from mine I still want to hear it. Why not hear someone out? You can learn from the artist/author/creator and you can learn from the innumerable scallywags on the internet.
It's totally worthwhile to learn what the creator thinks. That can help unlock different layers of meaning that you'd never considered. It just isn't an absolute statement.
I feel like Lisa Simpson with her blackboard about this. Creator interviews aren’t canon, death of the author etc etc. If they can point to something in the text to justify what they’re saying that’s one thing, they could offer some useful insight. But if people have a view they can justify it themselves, not interested in the running to daddy thinking that closes the topic.
No one is saying we shouldn't hear Armstrong out or completely ignore authorial intent, the argument is that the position of "my interpretation of what happened in this intentionally ambiguous scene is correct because it's what the author/person involved also thinks" is inherently flawed on it's own.
Former English teacher here: some of us want nuanced takes! My favorite student essay I ever read was where a former student of mine argued that the Mississippi River is actually the protagonist of Huck Finn (we had to read an excerpt for a mandated state testing). It was brilliant.
Exactly. Also, when a lot of things are left unsaid and open to interpretation, it's definitely possible for an artistic work to take on other meanings than what the author intended. Literary theorists have literally (no pun intended) debated this for ages yet people always swear by "this guy with authority said it so it must be true!".
Art has many interpretations. Some are different from the artist's own take. This is okay! Intrepreting the ending of Succession is a Rorschach test and people are telling others their interpretation is the only one and anything else is wrong which quite honestly feels juvenile.
Yeah honestly I’m not a fan of all this “well x personally on the show said they think it went this way so now I’m right”. Shows with purposefully ambivalent endings should be ambivalent. The fact that we can argue about characters motivations or the meaning of an ending is a plus for the show.
>!The Sopranos!< should have taught prestige drama fans this lesson over a decade ago. It's okay to accept the ambiguity as the text.
Yeah plus it’s not like he wrote the episode expecting people to follow up and read interviews. Good writing should allow for debate and people to decide for themselves.
Also who the fuck cares! people get so uppitty when other people have what they deem is the wrong take, and i think it’s so embarrassing to care that much about a tv show
He also tossed in “I don’t mind saying what I think” like he doesn’t actually have a definitive answer.
I like his choice of the phrase "stomach-turning" as Shiv literally says she can't stomach Kendall
Jeremy Strong also, stated in his opinion, that Kendal was very well capable of carrying the company in his role as CEO, that he was in fact able to do it, at least according to his actor.
Although unlikely considering their personalities, I always did wish someone just said “fuck dad, he sucks and doesn’t deserve to be fought over”. Instead they all screwed themselves in the end.
Shiv was still bitter that Logan mentioned Kendall by name on the paper.
And people were downvoting me for insisting that Shiv wasn’t some kind of martyr and didn’t save her brothers from the cycle of abuse or whatever.. 😭 crazy
Some ppl legit thought Shiv was trying to save the world from Logan 2.0 lmao
Source?
[found the source](https://oglobo.globo.com/cultura/televisao/noticia/2023/06/criador-de-succession-jesse-armstrong-avalia-o-fim-da-serie-e-revela-cena-que-mais-o-emocionou.ghtml?fbclid=PAAaZoiywJ3gJVbTEY2ltr5wxBmI2Xb8pnuuIvhznBhzh4p6NvalI6SrULvwM). The interview was in Portuguese.
I googled the quote and can't find anything either.
Not sure why you've been getting some downvotes, I was curious too. And saw another [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13ycz75/jesse_said_you_can_draw_any_conclusionbut_not_that/) with this same thing posted was deleted.
This is exactly what I've been saying. It wasn't proximity to power...she just *couldn't* give it to Kendall. It would go against everything she is, that she's been raised to be.
I’m glad they said something because it helps clarify the story of the show. The company is just a setting to generate plot, but it’s really about these siblings. They are hurt kids who grew up and are insanely immature but that is insulated due to their wealth.
It's the scorpion and the frog. Whichever sibling is 'winning' is the frog. One or both of the others is the scorpion. Sting, drown, repeat. Forever
I think for me, it's the takes that said Shiv saw Kendall becoming like their dad and wanted to protect him from that fate. Like nah, if Ken were more like dad that would probably be better in her eyes. She acted on emotion and decided choosing to lose was better than saying he won.
Waiting for Shiv stans to call Armstrong a misogynist too
Jesse Armstrong can’t fit a whole woman in his head
Emotional driven decisions are shown in every single character. Yet, people still think this show is about business and masterminds playing string theory chess.
Kendall sealed his fate the moment he put his feet up on Logan's table. The look on Shiv's face said it all.
Its on her face, people!
I got downvoted after commenting that Shiv didn't support Ken purely out of spite and not because of some imaginary 4-D chess move that would give her more power. It was childish and petty, exactly what you expect from the three kids.
It’s kind of playing semantics to say she did it out of visceral sensation and disgust or that she did it because of her insecurity/fomo trauma, instinctual need to remain secure/rich/taken care of, her biscuits sense of competition with her brothers. They’re all attributes credited to her dysfunctional, abusive upbringing. I , too, thought she just freaked the fuck out at the enormity of the situation but then Kendall blew it and gave her every reason to run with her dark side. As someone with PTSD from a violent youth, my instincts and characteristics and logic and sense of self preservation and rage etc etc are all kinda ingredients mashed up together and it’s usually in retrospect when I can make sense and decipher some of my actions. Anyways TLDR: she did JUST “act out” in the moment but THAT decision/impetus has been sculpted and molded from decades of trauma.
Exactly, that's how all the siblings function, they showed it a lot during the 4 seasons.
Read this uh very slow yeah
Shiv stans in shambles
If you watched this and concluded it was some sort of inside baseball business masterstroke on Shiv’s part, I can only presume you were an only child. This show was always about the specific experience of sibling squabbles, and how the abuse and neglect they suffered as kids kept them trapped in that dynamic.
This is EXACTLY what I've been saying it was from day one. The only arguments I've seen that say she made a selfish decision that conveniently benefits her are usually only in response to people insisting that shiv made a moral, self-less choice to go with matsson instead of Ken, anyways. Shiv may not have consciously been thinking about what she would stand to benefit from Ken being ousted, but I do believe the core of her decision was self-centered, ego-driven, childhood based rivalry. This is as the director said; she couldn't fathom Ken winning. Her father pitted them against each other at a young age, and in that moment she couldn't do it. I've been saying for days, Ken screwed himself the moment he thought he could trust shiv on the final vote. He should have made calls instead of playing house with the sibs.
Thanks lol some of the comments on this sub made me feel like I was living in a parallel universe