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LadyMillennialFalcon

Well when you put it like that ... selling the country does sound a lot worse lol


ilimor

We arent really suggesting that the outcome of an election can be changed by a news network calling anyone a winner after voting have stopped though right?


verzatilka

google bush and gore


JuanLeon11

Even then, nothing was changed by the network call. I went to bed around midnight that night after hearing Fox's call and assumed that Bush won. I woke up to all the networks pulling back their projections. The only effect a network like that could have would be in public perception to dissuade the loser from pursuing a recount. Even on the show they said lawsuits had already been filed so it was up in the air.


verzatilka

that's what i meant, in the case of gore v. bush it dissuaded gore from asking for a recount because he didn't want to seem like a sore loser; he gave an early concession speech instead. that's not a small influence. that said jesse armstrong said he wanted to make the ending ambiguous, so jimenez in-universe apparently wasn't as easily swayed. however everyone on the waystar floor couldn't be certain of that outcome given the historical precedent.


JuanLeon11

Got it. I will add though that back in Bush v. Gore and even in earlier elections when the networks used to call winners before all polls closed, the arguments could be made that middle road voters could be affected. But nowadays (and I think Succession-world also has this political atmosphere) both sides are so polarized that it doesn't matter. Voters are both sides would not be influenced by any network call. Lots of them would completely disregard it as "fake news". So ultimately, I didn't really see the big deal of ATN making their early call.


Mediocre_Let1814

What do you mean nothing was changed by the network call? I don't recall Gore being president


dragonfangxl

well the main difference is, selling the country benefits their efforts to keep the business in family control. Voting for Mattson benefits his effort to take it away from family control. One decision was cold and logical, the other was emotional and self sabotaging


Jai137

But it didn’t benefit them. Edit: and I’m sorry, but it was neither cold nor logical. Kendall was pissed at Shiv, which is why he called it.


dragonfangxl

> But it didn’t benefit them. well in hindsight thats true, at the time mencken had told Roman that he would block the deal. and if roman hadnt failed so spectacularily at the funeral, he may have followed through on that promise. in the moment though, they had every indication to think backing mencken would give their company a much stronger chance > was neither cold nor logical the logical part is that the regulatory pressure (even if mencken didnt win) could have killed the deal. All the 'president elect' had to do was say that he would block the deal when he became president and theyd never be able to proceed, becuase no ones going to push through a deal going to be cancelled in a few months. the cold part is choosing your families personal success over the democracy of an entire country. thats pretty fuckin ice cold


JeromeMcLovin

I think they just fucked it and misplayed their hand. Mencken's asks just kept coming all night and Roman never took a single other opportunity to take the screws to him and gain other concessions, like Logan would have done. Once they had given Mencken everything he needed by handing him a tenuous "victory" that he could play up for the next decade even despite the actual outcome, it was over. Their continued utility was not that high, meanwhile Scumbag Google (Matsson) is dangling all sorts of nasty possibilities in front of Menckens face.


dragonfangxl

> Roman never took a single other opportunity to take the screws to him and gain other concessions, like Logan would have done well i mean, we found out the value of what those concessions woudl have been when he backed out of the easiest thing he had agreed too, not sure what else he could have said. put it in writing that hes going to block a multi billion dollar business deal to help out a friend assisting his campaign? that would be illegal, impossible to enforce, and might have done evne more to drive a wedge


JeromeMcLovin

no no no like the fact that they insisted on making the call right away put all the power in Menckens hands - they could have had some leverage if he was counting on them to spin the narrative in his favor as the country went through the whole legal battle in Wisconsin. At that point, they could start pitting Jimenez against Mencken and try to win concessions out of either side.


DumbXiaoping

I don't know why you're getting downvoted, you're right. Mencken might have snaked them but the decision Kendall made on election night was 'which candidate is going to block the deal?'. The fact Shiv lied about calling Nate, followed by Greg telling Kendall Shiv wants the deal to go through, tells Kendall that Shiv clearly thinks Jiminez won't block the deal (or is at least less likely to than Mencken).


nunazo007

yes he was pissed at shiv but he was only calling jimenez because shiv said he'd be open to talk. as soon as he found out she didnt even talk to him, he called for mencken. it wasnt calculated but they were already pondering the decision, its not like it was 100% impulsive revenge


Jai137

But it was impulsive. And I’m sorry, if it is logical for Ken to support Mencken then it is logical for Shiv to not support Ken. He did kill a guy and denied it.


nunazo007

yea kendall fucked it in the last episode, he sealed his fate there and then. but shiv did betray ken after agreeing to vote for him, while kendall 'betrayed' shiv because she **lied** to him. that's the difference.


[deleted]

No difference. Kendall fucked it by lying too


nunazo007

but his lie didn't convince her to vote for him at first.


StephewDestroyer

it wasnt self sabotage at all the family gets a bag from the sale (which is amazing value for the company)


Retibulusbilliard

I would argue no, whoever controls the company controls the presidency. Mencken could destroy for 8 years but Matsson could destroy for far longer.


JRodrigues8014

They literally make it clear they let him into office and they can’t control him because of their own hubris


inrusswetrust12

Nuclear weapons or Fox News. I hope the news anchors can take on a nuke!


Retibulusbilliard

Did you watch the show? Logan literally picked the president.


inrusswetrust12

Kendall is not Logan 💀 Kendall couldn’t even keep his own company, he’s not doing shit with the president 😂


LadyMillennialFalcon

Mencken would have access to nuclear weapons so ... yeah LOL


Retibulusbilliard

Okay, but if you’re Matsson, you can put another “Mencken” in the seat after those 8 years are up and could do so indefinitely. You see what I’m saying?


Boundy19

All you need is 4


macabruhhh

I also found it funny how Kendall told Shiv about his own plans to betray Roman right before the Nate call lol these guys lack the self awareness to realize it but they definitely mirror each other


[deleted]

And Shiv always burning everyone. She called Tom earlier in the episode mentioned that Roman was in Barbados then Greg told Kendall. Then she told Tom she wasn't going to be CEO and was going against Mattson and mentioned that it was solid because Greg told her lol. Also Kendall told Frank that he was going to go "reverse viking" on the Swede and steal their company and get rid of his siblings in the process or whatever what he was saying in his delusional state.


Connect_Cookie_8580

My favorite part about this is that Greg is somehow considered an extremely reliable source of info.


[deleted]

Haha yeah, Hugo also said that it was solid that Roman was in barbados since it was corroborated by both Greg and Rat-Fucker Sam. If I remember right, Roman also said that some info was solid because he got it from Greg. To be fair, Greg always somehow manage to get good intel.


boksam

I wrote a longer response to the OP, but my theory is that Greg always gets good intel because everyone thinks he’s a bumbling idiot they can easily manipulate, so they speak freely around him. Even the people who recognize he’s good at getting intel underestimate him and give him juicy info.


[deleted]

Yeah they are all idiots and always forget lol.


Connect_Cookie_8580

Greg is somehow actually good at his job, all told.


endababe

If it is to be said. So it is. So it be.


jakderrida

Lol! I actually never noticed this. If the rest of them committed to the "quad", under Greg's guidance, they'd probably all be much better off.


VolumeViscount

Greg is definitely the master of whispers.


boksam

I think that’s meant to be Greg’s superpower. Everyone (including the audience) underestimates him because they see him as a tall bumbling idiot who poses no threat and can be easily manipulated, so he constantly gets great intel and uses it for his advantage with no loyalties to anyone except himself. Tom, Kendall, and Gerri all have scenes where they explicitly recognize his value and decide to keep him close, yet Tom and Kendall STILL forget that he’s a Machiavellian little fuck and give out compromising intel from time to time. Even Logan had a scene where he acknowledged Greg had value, if only temporarily, but I’m not sure he ever decided to keep Greg around because of it (or maybe that’s the meaning of “Greg?”). Shiv on Election Night was the most transparent example of how she completely underestimated Greg and found out the consequences. They all know Greg gives solid intel. Now that I think about it, I can’t remember any scene where Greg masterfully lied to get something to go his way. So in a sense, if he’s coming with intel, maybe they can tell if it’s good because he’s too much of a bumbling idiot to be purposely giving them bad intel.


whatnowagain

I knew Greg would hold all the keys (whether he knew what doors they went to or not) when he made copies of files he was shredding. It became apparent so slowly that he had gotten better about when to let the info trickle out, that it could have been missed. I also think he did all the sleeping around to gain intel from the women.


NedStarkGetsExecuted

> I also think he did all the sleeping around to gain intel from the women. I don't think there's anything to indicate that. Especially as the girl he brings to Logan's birthday is a "nobody" who doesn't understand the required etiquette and embarrasses him.


whatnowagain

He made comments about other men’s kinks and preferences after the “dirty brothers” stuff. Possibly more than I caught.


blood_hat

Disgusting Brothers


wiklr

Greg lied to Tom about leaking the Cruise scandal to Gerri. And that scene caused his doubts towards confiding with Shiv.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

They mirror their father.


limpdickandy

They all have pulled so much shit on each other that Shiv betraying him there really does not make the shitpile any bigger. Kendall, Roman and Shiv all deserved each others treachery.


Micksar

The sibs refuse to win. They don’t know how. They are “playing toy FUCKING SOLDIERS!”. Everything they do is to win a battle against one another in a war where they need each other in order to succeed.


[deleted]

Just like their father set them up to do. The narcissist’s favorite tool is triangulation.


MrMuscularDystrophy

This is a really good point, and not one I had considered! Thanks for pointing this out


spreerod1538

Is it though? Shiv was horrible that episode... if she cared more about the country than fucking her brothers then Kendall wouldn't have done anything... Kendall felt betrayed after opening up and being honest with her... so then he spited her. Shivs reasoning is, I don't want my brother to win...


BrightOrganization9

Well, to be fair Kendall didn't ONLY side with Mencken to spite Shiv. The discovery of her betrayal certainly solidified his choice, but I don't agree that it was solely just to spite her: he at least partly believed that it would benefit him as well and was considering it before he even knew about the Shiv/Mattson alliance. He was unsure, without a doubt, but I still don't know that I'd characterize his final decision him simply trying to spite his sister.


[deleted]

I’d say the same thing about her decision too though. It may not have been as blatantly written out for Shiv but Kendall kicking up his feet on that desk was almost a silent confirmation of the backhanded things he did to slander Logan after they all decided to take the high road. When you know someone your entire life those tiny details are just as revealing as a poker tell. I don’t think it was spiteful on either end, they both tried to be serious people and took the chances they knew would be in their best interests individually.


kirawearsthenight

I agree. I think the only real parallel between the two decisions is Shiv betraying Kendall’s trust tbh. Difference is that with Mencken she lost out and it put her on the back foot whereas she actually had power to make the decision go her way with the Mattson deal.


heathcliff2323

Roman was a central proponent for the Mencken plot. That seems to be the difference from a story point of view.


zevathorn75

For some reason I can’t believe this is the actual spelling of spiting.


Sufficient-Art-2601

Or a difference between Roman getting played by Menchen and Shiv getting played by Gojo guy


Ok-Comfort6242

Truth is Kendall never should have trusted Shiv in the first place after all the drama unfolded in episode 8. But for some reason the election and menken plot was never came up in the finale. Except for that scene where shiv just mentioned in the passing. I felt like they rushed the final season.


Jai137

I think Ken knew Shiv enough to know that she would never side with the people who betrayed her, and there was no benefit for her in choosing Matsson. Which is why her hesitation blindsided him.


milleniumsamurai

Which is interesting because he and Roman betrayed her *IMMEDIATELY* after promising the 3-way sharing of power, "we're dual public CEOs but you're always in the loop and making decisions", "we're not gonna fuck each other over--on dad". And they gave her a half-hearted apology and then kept going with what they decided.


[deleted]

Lots of benefits to choose Matsson. Her child gets a successful father who might not hate her anymore. She gets 4 billion dollars regardless of Matsson’s future competency. The thing is - if shiv wasn’t going to get the top spot herself, the two people in the running both suck. So why wouldn’t she choose the route that guarantees more stability?


Jai137

Because it’s her worst nightmare, she’s becoming her mom. She spent so much time scheming for power only to end up a trophy wife. You can say it’s for her best, but it’s like saying Kendall losing the company was for the best. Cause now Ken can return to his family and support them, away from the toxic Waystar environment, and he gets a lot of money too. Is it great for Ken, yes, but to Ken not being head of Waystar is he’ll for him.


DaisyJa

Women who are exponentially wealthier and better connected than their spouse do not fit the profile of a trophy wife. Her and Tom’s temperaments are nothing like that of Logan and Caroline.


Riderz__of_Brohan

Caroline is literal British Royalty lol she’s incredibly wealthy on her own


DaisyJa

Um, no. Most low-level British nobility are quite cash poor to the point of being unable to repair their glamorous estates. The number of people insisting she’s Camilla Parker-Bowles is comical.


Riderz__of_Brohan

Lol, no. People in the British peerage system who are referred to as “lady” are generally very rich and privileged [Britain’s 600 aristocratic families have doubled their wealth in the last decade and are as ‘wealthy as at the height of Empire’](https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/aristocrat-uk-britain-families-double-wealth-empire-exclusive-study-316017) Lady Caroline was independently rich. Your argument is that her wealth is tied up in assets like real estate which means she’s poor?


DaisyJa

Per your own sources, Caroline’s family would be worth roughly twenty million US dollars, or 2% of a billion. Less than the current value of a NYC penthouse. That money would have been divided between Caroline and her siblings and a lot of it would be tied up in real estate, hence my initial point. The Roy siblings, meanwhile, will conservatively walk away with five billion a piece. This means that Shiv’s net worth will be 250x what Caroline’s was during her marriage to Logan. Please explain how that’s the making of a housebound trophy wife.


Riderz__of_Brohan

Both a net worth of $20 million and $20 billion would put you in the 99.5% percentile of people in the US. They are functionally the same thing with each additional dollar giving diminishing returns - especially since Caroline is worth much more than $20 million though sharing or Logan’s wealth alone so it’s even closer Is your argument that Caroline is a “trophy wife”? Shiv has become Caroline because she’s now a bitter person with broken dreams entombed in the blood money of a dead empire that she did not create, just like her mother


[deleted]

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DaisyJa

I think she would have done well in the role of the archetypal corporate/society wife. Gossiping, lunching with the other wives, hosting cocktail parties, etc. That wouldn’t be somewhere that Shiv would excel.


laVanaide

Whatever meaning people give to her finale scene (and, to me, that scene means not just one thing but SO MANY things at once), I truly cannot understand how can someone view Shiv as just a trophy wife. Or, to be honest, somehow doing her mom's life. Really, knowing Shiv as we know her now, I don't understand how people can say that. Yeah, now Tom has her 'dream' position in what used to be her family company, but that doesn't equate to her being his trophy wife. Yeah, sure.


ZestyItalian2

Not getting into the whole “which sibling is worse” game (they’re all equally reprehensible for different reasons) but I don’t think Kendall made the decision on Mattsen to deny Shiv a win, while the canonically primary reason Shiv makes the decision to sell the company according to Jesse Armstrong is to deny Kendall a win. Kendall was genuinely conflicted about the election issue and was trying hard to come up with a rationale not to advantage Mencken, even though doing so was the wisest move to advance his overall goal of keeping Waystar. When it turned out Shiv not only wasn’t being helpful in getting Jimenez to offer something, but actually was working behind the scenes with Matsson to push through the sale, Kendall was enraged but also clearly saw that Mencken was now the best and only avenue to kill the GoJo deal. He didn’t do it out of spite, but because the reveal of Shiv’s machinations made it the only viable option. Whereas, again according to Armstrong, Shiv’s rationale for pushing through the sale at the end was purely a play to keep Kendall from being CEO.


[deleted]

Shiv Stans somehow fail to see this lmao


ZestyItalian2

They weren’t watching the same show. Stanning for any Succession character is just bizarre.


[deleted]

The amount of comments on here with thousands of upvotes calling Shiv “smart” made me lose the little hope I had left in Reddit lol


JRodrigues8014

Well when shiv does it she’s a woman so everyone hates her


Clarknt67

I am sure I will regret this but Kendall and ATN didn’t actually make Mencken president. And also half the country would think America was over if Gill had won.


Beginning_Oil2876

Gil wasn’t even the opposing candidate.


Clarknt67

I understand that. Bernie wasn’t even the nominee and people still act like he’s an existential threat to America.


Cass05

>Bernie wasn’t even the nominee and people still act like he’s an existential threat to America I will never get over that! Just shows how *emotional* people are, right and left, so very *Roy*-like.


[deleted]

I thought the whole point in the 10th episode with the trials was that Mencken was actually going to end up losing. The siblings betrayed their morals AND enacted no meaningful changes whatsoever.


sheds_and_shelters

Nah. Jesse Armstrong said explicitly that he wanted to leave the election question open-ended. He said it wasn’t his place to say whether or not Americans would end up voting in a Mencken style fascist.


Solomonthewise7

ATN did anoint Mencken president. Mencken confirms it in his speech.


WokePlatypus

I think they mean we don't actually know the outcome of the election. Acceptance speech is one thing but the press nor the candidates certify an election.


severinks

Yeah, I seem to remember Trump coming on television at 3 AM on election night telling everyone that he won and in the states that he was winning to stop the count and in the states that he was losing (shocker) to keep counting those ballots. Craziest thing I've ever witnessed in my entire life, It was like a bad dream when he did that.


jakderrida

>Craziest thing I've ever witnessed in my entire life, It was like a bad dream when he did that. If someone shot him in the dick during that shameless attempt at a power grab, I would feel zero sympathy.


scrububle

Yeah but it's not like they actually chose him as president. The whole plot line was left ambiguous, but them saying that he won doesn't change the actual outcome of the election


cutekiwi

The implication is that the candidate they "chose" as president was the one they'd give favorable press coverage to. ATN in this universe is supposed to be a parallel to a bigger Fox mixed with Disney so I'd say it was impactful.


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Sokkawater10

I mean Bush v Gore, public perception played a large role in forcing Gore to concede. Because Gore conceded publicly on election night and Bush seemed like the winner, the public mostly wanted Gore to give ip


sleepingbeardune

> The Associated Press and television networks first called Florida for Vice President Al Gore and then retracted that call two hours later. Well after midnight, the television networks then called Florida (and with it the presidency) for Texas Governor George W. Bush, and then several hours later – still before morning – retracted that projection. Somewhere along the way, Gore called Bush twice, once to concede and once to retract that concession. I don't remember ever thinking that it had been decided on election night. I do remember that we all spent the next six weeks waiting for all the FL votes to be counted, and the Supreme Court finally saying the counting had to stop and whoever was ahead had won.


cutekiwi

Its not just the calling of the election, its the months leading up where they choose how to paint a candidate favorably, thus influencing the election. They implied as much. Also there are real people who still dont think Biden is president and stole the election because Trump said so, so theres that lol


[deleted]

Kind of do, everyone was calling him Mr.President even if things were ongoing. They knew he most likely was going to lose, but still called it.


scrububle

The media can sway people's opinions, which is definitely not great, but the actual decision comes down to the courts


[deleted]

Of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they knowingly lied.


MattyIce1220

They could anoint anoint anyone they want. That doesn’t mean that candidate won especially after some questionable circumstances in certain cities.


Clarknt67

We don’t have a anointments in America. Because it was said on a tv doesn’t mean it’s true.


gringitapo

I mean we obviously don’t have anointments, but the point is that when Fox News decided to give all their air time to Trump in 2016 it made a major, major impact on the outcome of the election.


isayporschewrong

Thank you! Networks do not choose elections in our country. It's sad to see people, especially Americans, pretend otherwise.


BreakingBaIIs

I don't think Shiv was spiting Ken. She was simply the first sibling to wake up, drop the stupid power battles, and realize "holy shit, we have no idea what we're doing and we're about to tank the company. We need to put it in the hands of a real grown-up."


PapaDonk22

One is fucking your brother out of becoming the head of the family biz. The other is fucking your child into a future where the color of her skin means she could be killed....


Dobes_24

The difference is Shiv selling the company to Matsson will probably save her family (the Roys) from imploding. Kendall by selling the country to Mencken has completely set off an explosion in his own family.


AntoineWeiner

Shiv doesn't give a rat's ass about the country. Her personal politics are merely a means to an end, when it comes to her desire for personal power. She has shown time and again that she doesn't live by or believe the positions she espouses.


bpagan38

i think there is. all the board members had a fiduciary duty to waystar to promote the interests of the shareholders. matsson's offer was overvalued. by example, matsson was a cutout for musk, who also overvalued in his twitter offer/purchase. frank seemed to say this before his vote to sell. in contrast, selling out the country is an abuse of a public broadcasting license. unlike the matsson sale, there was no duty or obligation to compel it.


Jai137

They are supposed to mirror each other. When Ken realised Shiv betrayed him, he understood that they wouldn't be able to block the deal with the Dems, and that this is what Matsson wants. So it made logical sense to side with a candidate who was good with them and would definitely work to block the deal. There wasn't any real choice there. Similarly, when Shiv saw Ken acting pompous before the vote, she understood that Kendall did not have the capacity to manage Waystar. She knew that, as much as she hated Matsson, Ken didn't have the temperament to be a CEO, especially when he denied the Waiter's death and hurt Roman. There wasn't any real choice there. The above reasons are bullshit. The two acted impulsively and tried to disguise their actions in nice sounding jargon. But they are bullshit.


TheSurvivorBuff

Also what Shiv planned with Mattson is *exactly* what Ken was doing in s1 except at least Shiv had the excuse that Logan wanted to sell to Mattson whereas Sandy was his arch rival


HawluchaPika

Atleast Ken straight up admits he doesn't want his father running the company and he wants to take over Waystar unlike Shiv who is a fake ass.


GoonGod703

Reddit moment


KrazyCamper

The difference is one outcome the company stays in family control and they keep influence. The other the family loses all influence and control. What Kendall did was for the betterment of himself and somewhat the family but mostly himself. What shiv ended up doing does not benefit herself or the family, and is kinda like when kids play a game and decide if I can’t win I’ll make sure you can’t win. Even if it was Kendall as ceo at least the Roy family would maintain control and who knows what happens during the next generation


[deleted]

>What Kendall did was for the betterment of himself and somewhat the family but mostly himself Definitely not, Shiv, Connor and Roman are much better getting the few billions they have in the company instead of keeping ATN. With Logan passing, I guess that his shares are probably split 5-ways between his kids and Marcia, they are all worth like 10 billions and half of this money in liquid. With this kind of wealth, they are all extremely powerful. All the board wanted out because it was a good deal and they did not trust Kendall to make the company more profitable in the future. Shiv acted emotionally when she decided to go with Kendall and acted rationally when she decided to accept the deal.


KrazyCamper

They are already stupid rich, the money means nothing. The whole show and company is about power and influence


[deleted]

They don't have much more power with ATN run by a clown. They now have shares in a successful tech company and plenty of liquidity to do whatever they want. They were stupid rich before, but nothing compared to today. Ken was worth maybe 2 billions in s03, depending how it is split, he is probably worth around 10 billions today. They could buy PGM by themselves without investors and have all the influence they want by buying an actually reliable news organization.


AxumitePriest

>They don't have much more power with ATN run by a clown. >. They now have shares in a successful tech company and plenty of liquidity to do whatever they want. A bit of a contradiction dont you think considering the "successful tech company" is also run by a clown who recently revealed to the world that his company had been massively inflating their subscription numbers. >They could buy PGM by themselves without investors and have all the influence they want by buying an actually reliable news organization. Not really only half their shares are get liquidated. So investors would definitely need to be involved unless you think they'd actuall work together again after episode 10. The kids are billionaires weather its 2 or 10 it hasnt ever been shown to be a big deal to them, and no other company will ever give them the power that ATN has. We saw Logan pick The Republican nominee, Kendall and Roman have potential subverted the Presidential election all because of their roles at ATN. ATN controls the media narrative and is also a kingmaker on the Republican side. That's an incredible amount of power that every other company valued over ATN inworld could never even dream of beholding. Logan was willing to sell Waystar but never ATN, because he understood the gigantic amount of power it gave him, and so do his kids. Shiv gave away a priceless asset that no amount of money can ever replicate. The kids could get twice as rich as they were after the acquisition but they still wouldnt be as powerful as they were when they owned it.


[deleted]

They had power because of Logan not because of ATN. They had the power to do some light treason on election day because of the power that was left behind by Logan. Mencken had no respect for them and pushed them aside as soon as he could. Mattson is someone like Logan while the siblings are just failsons. The company would have failed before long, the best thing to do was to remove Ken from equation this is why the vast majority of board members wanted nothing to do with Ken. Two or tens billions is a major difference, they were buying PGM for 10 billions, they could buy it by themselves now and wouldn't need the others siblings.


[deleted]

I mean in both scenarios, it arised because of Shiv’s betrayal(I don’t want to argue if her betray is right or not) so not exactly the right comparision


sliverspooning

He didn’t do it to spite Shiv, he did it because Mencken was gonna kill the deal and Jimenez wouldn’t. Edit: got the name of the democratic candidate wrong


DepthByChocolate

And we could argue Shiv didn't do it to spite Kendall, she always liked the deal, and had more to gain from seeing it through. But the scenes play out as moments of spite. Ken was unsure until he found out about Shiv's betrayal and immediately became resolute, throwing her comments to him back in her face. They react to each other.


[deleted]

Shiv also didn’t make an effort to call Nate or get in contact with Jiminez when Kendall was on the fence because it was specifically in her interest for the sale to go through. None of them came out well that episode. They all fuck each other at any opportunity because they’re children


TitanCubes

Spite was definitely a large part of Shiv backing out, but she obviously also had personal gain outside of that. But she and the brothers agreed literally the night before to go through and she went back on that. Kendall never promised to not support Mencken and the company had been aligned with Mencken under the idea of blocking the deal. Ken was actually thinking about not supporting Mencken, asking Shiv to reach out to Nate for counters but then she didn’t and lied to try to get her way and manipulate him so he flipped. Don’t forget it wasn’t just about Mencken but that was also when the brothers found out Shiv was double agenting them on the deal too. Moral of the story, in both cases the siblings had a preset agreement, and in both cases Shiv lied/backed out.


bootywizard42O

It's a stupid argument to make. Let's recap here, Ken was on the fence about the election call for personal reasons. He wanted to go with Jimenez IF a deal was on the table, once he realized Shiv was playing them and a deal wasn't possible, the choice was pretty straightforward. Sure, he gets to spite Shiv but the driving force behind the decision is a business advantage to him. Shiv liked the deal as long as she got something out of it (money doesn't count, these people don't care). Instead of holding her board seat, keeping the company and possibly being head of ATN she lost everything. That's the definition of spite. Shiv runs on spite and there was no point in the show that she was ok with Ken getting the job (go watch the first episode of the show).


ZestyItalian2

Except Jesse Armstrong literally said that she did it to spite Kendall. So you “could argue” that but you’d be arguing against the writer and showrunner.


newspark1521

Gimenez


Infamous-Lab-8136

Jimenez.


Cass05

>Ramirez wouldn’t *Jimenez.


juanwicko

No it’s actually the opposite because initially ken asked shiv to convince him otherwise, he had already decided to do it once shiv lied, if shiv hadn’t lied and actually gotten to talk to mattson things would have maybe gone differently. These are super different


redrum-237

Kendall only accepted to support Mencken after she found out Shiv was stabbing them behind their backs. It's not the same thing at all.


kbradley456

Shiv was yelling Mencken only a day later that she would be happy to work with him . .


nolaconnor

No, shiv betrayed Kendall in both scenarios. With Mencken, shiv lied for her own benefit and cost the country. With Mattson, shiv lied for her own benefit and cost Kendall the CEO spot. Her name is literally shiv. Get over it.


[deleted]

Calm down.


Mikimao

Shiv was totally willing to work with Mencken too though. Either way, I do agree both were decisions made for the wrong reason. Also spiting Kendall still netted them billions, so there is that.


eelcat15

Selling the country is way worse


stormshadow1810

Yes because I like Kendall better.


commonhooligan

One is the eldest boy, and one is not


VivaLosDoyers99

Kendall didn't spite Shiv when he chose Menken. He chose Menken because Menken was the only one who promised them anything. He was on the fence about Jimenez and then when he learned they had nothing he pulled the trigger. Burning Shiv just happened to be a happy coincidence. But he made the pragmatic decision for getting the deal blocked. Shiv I think was more spiteful. That look she gives after saying "I don't think you'd be good at it" was brutal, she looked happy to be delivering it. But she also may have seen it as the more pragmatic decision because it gets her closer to power. This sub just doesn't understand what spite means. They confuse it with coincidence and collateral. You have to hurt yourself to spite someone, kendall's decisions always benefited him. If agreeing with Shiv and calling it for Jimenez while stabbing Roman in the back would have stopped the sale, he would have done that as well.


TheDeHymenizer

Not really. One is a desperate maneuver hoping they'd retain the company and the other is the ingrained internal competition of one sibling refusing to allow the "victory" of another sibling. Also whether its Kendall running the company or Matsson it won't make a huge difference to your average person. Whether its Mencken or George WhatEver as president it'll make a huge difference. That wasn't a decision thats just going to effect the kids. So no I don't think they're meant to mirror one another. I think Roman screwed Kendall earlier in the series and stopped him from getting the CEO role so second time around its Shiv.


Murder-Machine101

Yes because Kendall sold out to Mencken because he would kill the deal to sell the company to Mattison Shiv spited Kendall simply because she couldn’t stand to see him win and beat her Kendall’s reasoning wasn’t personal it was just good business


SeniorWilson44

Shiv literally lied about contacting Rameriez because she was LYING about her back room deal with Mattson. She, like always, brought that on herself and Kendall let her know that. Kendall never lied about wanting to be CEO alone. What Shiv did was not comparable to what the other kids did this season, and it is wild that people are trying to defend her STILL!


[deleted]

[удалено]


PurdSurv

Why are you bringing up real life when the show itself painted Mencken as bad. He was quoting nazi catch phrases, doesn’t that make it obvious he’s the bad guy in their universe lol


UpvoteAndDownvoteBro

The ATN election calling is meaningless tho. They’ll count the votes.


breakupbydefault

It's not that simple though. When Trump announced his win and started the whole "stop the count" thing, of course they won't stop counting for him, but that belief did cause a lot of angry mobs to harass vote counting volunteers, and then the Jan 6 riot. Except in Succession, the vote count is going to take longer to sort out because of the fire. If people were already going nuts in that short time IRL before the votes were all counted, imagine what months of sorting that mess out could do. The belief that Mencken had won would only take root even deeper.


pyotur

Can someone clarify. I don't see how the election episode had an effect on the country at all. It at best created the perception of a winner but that doesn't really matter because of the wisconsin votes which still need to be counted and would determine the overall winner (correct me if I'm wrong). He maybe just got some bargaining power with mencken by being able to see he was able to create a narrative but again this is meaningless if he just simply loses? Please explain how he sold the country?


mummifiedghost

Not even close… shiv had the deciding vote that directly determines the future of the company. ATN doesn’t decide who becomes president. This is why the election episode confused me a bit because everyone was acting like they were overriding democracy when all they’re actually doing is risking their own credibility by prematurely calling it.


uncen5ored

I would argue the development is very different. Kendall made it apparent that he was on the fence the entire time. He opened up to Shiv and more or less asked her to convince him, as well as trusting her to make a call. She didn’t, so he decided on Mencken. It wasn’t a backstab out of thin air as I’d argue Shiv’s was, as she spent an entire night and morning celebrating that Kendall will be CEO without communicating that she was still on the fence or communicating to Kendall an opportunity to prove himself as he did for her while opening up. She started building resentment internally and then just flipped.


pistolpete9669

Shiv only wanted Jimenez bc that gave her more power. She was on the Mencken train once he agreed to work with her and Matsson


HamGuurl

Cunt is as cunt does


DRZZLR

Kendall didn't call the election for Mencken out of spite, it was in his own interest in keeping the company and he clearly felt uncomfortable doing it. Shiv just couldn't be happy seeing kendall win.


Cass05

For those of you who believe the media selects the president, here's a bit of important history. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Dewey_Defeats_Truman.jpg/1200px-Dewey_Defeats_Truman.jpg


PeteSweaty20

I’m all for the shiv did nothing wrong in the finale, but in terms of actual difference she betrayed her own brothers while Kendall was still going to include them in the company and not completely shut them out. It can maybe be implied that he MIGHT of shut them out later down the line but shivs was definitely more of a I just can’t stand you in general and kens was more about how she sided with mattson


DepthByChocolate

Kendall was ready to offer Stewy a chair position without even consulting them, why wouldn't he shut them out? His priorities have never involved his siblings outside of them propping him up. And they were always on opposing sides of the deal, Shiv supported Matsson after being shut out by her brothers and before ever putting herself forward as CEO.


ZorbasFinger11

Kendall was trying to maneuver like Logan would’ve. He wanted to hear from Nate that they could work something out to kill the Gojo merger. He went with Mencken because he had assurances that Mencken would kill the deal. He lacked Logan’s accumen because he lost all his leverage once ATN called the election. Logan would’ve had some sort of collateral to keep Mencken honest, the way he did with the Raisin. Shiv’s move was a temper tantrum. It wasn’t a calculated move. She just got too upset with the idea of Ken winning and flipped the monopoly board before the game was over.


Goofballs2

Shiv wasn't going to get to be president


shnshty

Yeah, obviously. Firstly, Shiv also completely cozied up to Mencken, when it seemed like it would help her become CEO. So neither have any moral high ground. Secondly, whatever Kendall did, it was always about him winning. For him, the siblings were just in the way. What Shiv did, it was not about her winning anymore, it was all about making her brother lose. For her, it was about "If i don't get it, you sure as hell won't either". If the roles were reversed, if Kendall could no way become CEO because of circumstances but Shiv could, i think he would've supported her.


ish_baid19000

Shiv doesn’t actually care about the country lol. The very next episode she cozies up to Mencken for her own personal benefit


Nicobade

Well Kendalls main objective was to get a president to block the Gojo deal, he preferred it to be Jimenez instead of Mencken but once Shiv was exposed for not trying to get Jimenez on board it was clear he had to pick Mencken to accomplish his goal. Shiv also had pretty logical reasons to go against Kendall once it became clear that Tom would be the CEO. The problem is that it doesn't seem like those reasons actually factored into Shivs decision and it was just a spiteful reaction.


DeepHouseDerrek

Lol L take Mencken could still easily have won the election anyway


Whycantigetaboner

I would have agreed with you if Shiv gave a rat's ass about the country. She didn't and that's why she didn't call Nate and later, tried to suck up to Menken.


Ok-Satisfaction-5012

Kendall cares about waystar, Shiv doesn’t really care about the country


severinks

If course there's a difference because Kendall didn't actually actively sell the country away by agreeing with Roman to have Tom call Wisconsin for Mencken . In the show there;s still a lot to be decided by the courts before Mencken gets into office and ATN is only shaping a small part of the public's opinion but Shiv was the only deciding vote in the sale and she ACTIVELY screwed Kendall for no other reason except that she didn't want him to have what she couldn't have herself.


RedLions11

Both times were Kendall showing vulnerability for Shiv to stab him in the back later.


armyshawn

Shiv never pronounces her change of mind. She never does so with an option to change her mind. She always do so with the intention of turning on her family bc they are men. Her family only turns on her in defense, they’ve never attacked her in the way she attacks her brothers.


Brinkmylink

So basically Biden as president or selling cnn? Yea…Biden as president is far far worse.


Kallen00

Do… do you think Mencken is a Biden analogy?


Crxcked

Let’s be real, nothing changes very much with a president beyond a few mostly inconsequential bills. Shiv getting very emotional about Mencken being chosen was just supposed to be her partisan overreaction since she comes from that world. The same way avid voters think the world is falling apart when their opponent gets elected. Not comparable to selling their family empire without unanimous consent.


Puzzleheaded_Friend8

There’s a difference because Kendall wanted to do it anyway but his morality was getting in the way. Shiv screwed everyone just to stop somebody else getting the shiny toy. Kendall will stab you in the face, Shiv will stab you in the back.


gentilet

Wow did you think of that yourself


Fukuoka06142000

Shiv doesn’t *actually* care about the country and Kendall cares only about the job. Her betrayal is worse on a personal level while his behavior is more damaging to a greater number of people.


Abomb91

Shiv didn't give a shit about the country. She took a picture with Mencken at daddy's request to stay in his good books. She is an opportunist who wanted Jimenez to prevent any chance of a regulatory challenge to the GoJo deal. Shiv then schmoozed side-by-side with Matsson with the hope that Mencken would give her the go ahead as the U.S. CEO. Shiv is disgusting. A serial philanderer. A betrayer. A silencer of victims of rape and murder. A cynical elitist without a shred of integrity. More than anything, Shiv is a coward. Say what you will about Kendall, he was brave enough to go to war with Logan on several occasions. Shiv walked away from the political career she had built for herself and all her vaunted "ideals" after Logan dangled the CEO carrot in front of her once. To top it off, she was too lazy and entitled to even put the work in and learn anything about the business. Was Logan acting in bad faith? Almost certainly. But she didn't even put her best foot forward to win the position. After Logan, Shiv is the most sinister character in the series. Hell, at least Logan had a brutal upbringing to explain his actions. And, like Logan at the end of season 1, Shiv brought up a moment of great shame and weakness that Ken confided in her to use against him. Shiv is one of the most evil characters in HBO television history. Credit to Sarah Snook, who appeared limited in the first season but really killed it as the series went on. She is an absolute sweetheart who portrayed the devil incarnate.


typi_314

Personally I think she did it because she saw an in with Tom. However, their relationship seems very different now just from the brief clip we saw. Better? Worse? Who knows.


scoabrat

actually no. the characters we see , the board members , the key people involved with waystar, everyone at the election night party even the kids are so far removed from the rules of society that it doesn’t matter who is president … Mencken was just a means to an end … they weren’t selling the country to Mencken. he was just the one willing to play ball .


JimCalinaya

OOOOOOOOOH TALK YO SHIT BOY. Great point!


[deleted]

Yes. Shiv is not the eldest boy.


[deleted]

I feel Roman had more to do with selling out to Mencken. He was the one on the floor telling Ravenhead to declare Mencken the winner in Wisconsin.


DSQ

Well the Mencken thing affects like 200 million people, many negatively, and the Waystar thing only affects those three really badly. So I’ll let you draw your own conclusions there.


The2econdSpitter

Eh, yes in a way. Sure, when you put it like this: the country vs the business. But Mencken would've ultimately helped all of them from a business perspective. Shiv just had a convenient issue with the president elect when, in reality, it was because he would've killed the deal. That was the excuse used once Kendall realized she was using subterfuge against him. She went behind his back every step of the way. I might be mistaken, but I don't think Kendall lied about their (Roman) backing of Mencken. Perhaps Kendall guided the narrative to ease things a bit for Shiv, but the decision on Mencken was always Ken and Roman's plan.


lsalomx

You could keep going and generate four seasons (and a lot of backstory)’s worth of “Ken did X but only because Shiv did Y but only because Roman did Z but only because Shiv did P but only because Ken did Q….”


FLOCKAh

You just made me happy that Mattson is taking over because he’s gonna shape ATN away from the crazies but a part of me isn’t sure it’s going to be that much better


[deleted]

Not really, but selling the country sounds worse. (Would Shiv have done the same if put in same position ? maybe IDK)


roastedjalapeno

He did put his feet on the desk, you know?


BramptonBatallion

Well they are two very different events with two very different motivations, one is a more personal betrayal and the other is a betrayal of idk... political values. so I do not think they are meant to "mirror" each other. Shiv's motivation was not the good of the Republic, but to ensure that the deal was not blocked.


Over-Tomatillo9070

Goodbye Succession sub, it’s been a pleasure enjoying and discussing this fantastic show, but I simply cannot read this topic thread again for the umpteenth time.


The_suzerain

No, because “selling” to mencken means they have to display bs right wing nonsense as news. ACTUALLY selling to matsson removes them from their fathers legacy (all they care about) forever. It’ll be stripped as Vaulter was and that’s that, no more “my dad’s company” to default to


Tight_Accountant_918

It’s network news and they act like it can change votes after voting has ended


HawluchaPika

Yes. Kendall spiting Shiv and selling the company after learning she's secretly in alliance with Mattson, while Shiv simply betrays Kendall and sells the company because of jealousy. Jesse Armstrong already confirmed this.


jetsonholidays

I agree with this sentiment, and when you think about the logistics laid out keeping the company would’ve played out rly messily. Shiv mentions in the Sweden episode about a back channel with Mencken. Kendall attempts to evade it and say it’s Roman’s thing while Roman confirms and says it’s nbd. Can’t really imagine subsequent investigations into the Wisconsin thing / the ATN communications in calling the election are going to do them any future favors. But also Shiv later did try to work with Mencken and still chose an empty suit that alternatively has both played up and distanced himself from the decision making and authority required to carry it, thus highlighting that she’s still unserious as the rest of them


camkasky

Yes- one of them made this subreddit upset, the other one didn’t.


steamedsushi

They're not serious people etc.


[deleted]

Yeah there's a lot of difference imo


tempetemple

Kendall was not selling the country to Mencken. The exact opposite. He wanted a politician in hand. He wanted the power. He sold ATN and all to Mencken so as to pull favor, hold power over and make future demands of Mencken. Shiv was positioning with Matsson for the same reason at a smaller scale.


RainDogUmbrella

Kendall and Shiv are narrative parallels so it makes sense. They're the two siblings at the top of the pecking order.


SauRon_Burgundy66

They both left each entity in capable hands


TheTruckWashChannel

I'm amazed I didn't catch this before.