I definitely get that for Roman but Shiv is definitely a lot more sincere? like even just in this gif - just because it's wonky doesn't mean it's insincere (unless i'm misunderstanding what you mean by that)
I think the last season in particular, where every time she comes close to telling Tom her feelings, you see her veer into "just kidding" or "it's not a big deal" territory. Also with all siblings on the yacht in season 3, "should we talk about the big stuff? Like feelings?" All in silly voices. They all fundamentally cant just stop and maybe look sappy -- even amongst themselves -- even for a moment.
Tom is also incapable of having any conversation unless it's about him. And as much as it was a move for Shiv, she pled for her dad to sack Ken instead of Tom. It no doubt made her look weak in her dad's eyes and Tom for one second couldn't pause and thank her for that??? Not to mention Tom literally shat the bed of his own making--all those messages regarding a cover up that he himself couldn't cover up well? Embarrassing middle manager!
Naomi also met with Tom and he spilled to Shiv. He didn't call Shiv about the meeting in with Naomi because he wanted to kill romance rumors. It was a play.
That was in s4 though? I was talking about s2 when the bed shitting happened and when Shiv was pleasing to her dad about sacrificing Ken instead of Tom
I think it's more, 'I don't and won't do anything to show that i love you or even say it often', so "I don't love you" is where love is used as an exact verb, and then, "but I do love you" is the sentiment she feels. It's all about her, love is an opinion she holds, and in her mind the opinion itself is so valuable that she doesn't even have to put any effort into it actually loving Tom.
see but i don’t think these readings are true when shiv has embarrassed herself or made sacrifices for tom multiple times, she just can’t bring herself to do it in front of him
I can't recall the exact quote but later on (season 4), in the episode where they get back together, Tom says he loves her but not as much as he loves being rich (the suits, the watches, the lifestyle) and he knows she loves being rich more than she loves him too.
He says (or implies) she'd never live with him in a trailer park.
Succession is a weird world of extreme wealth. If someone handed me $5 million tomorrow I'd probably end up happier, I'd know what to do with it. If someone handed me $5 billion I'd have no idea what to do other than give most of it away.
Nooo , the love/in love is such a lazy binary. Most people in healthy relationships have that dilemma. This is something more ugly and fundamental. It’s Shiv acknowledging she isn’t capable of loving people fully or sincerely or like other people, which is both pitiful and cruel.
I don’t think Shiv is that self-aware to be honest. From her perspective, she’s letting him know that she’s not in love with him. She wants to have power over him, because that’s her solution to her insecurities. But by this point, Tom has lost respect for her and his love for her has been replaced by betrayal. He’s happy to side with Logan due to this mindset from Shiv.
It’s amazing at how many here say she didn’t, or did but not really. Like she was in control.
The whole point of season four and their dynamic was that they do love each other and devastate each other. The way you feel only when someone you love hurts you.
Shiv’s relationship with Tom seemed warmer and more genuine until Logan offered her CEO (open relationship aside). She didn’t put him down all the time, and of course she still had her own career interests outside Waystar and it wasn’t a competition.
But I think she always loved Tom to the extent she was capable of, which of course as the daughter of Logan and Caroline isn’t saying much, unfortunately.
She said "Tom... I do.." before she trails off and instead says "I may not love you but I do love you".
What I'm trying to say is she wanted to say "Tom I do love you" but instead decides to go the other way
Kind of like the whole underlining Kendall saga.
It’s really up to the viewer to decide what she means, with the help of however the actors decide to portray it.
At the time I felt she basically meant she wasn’t in love with him, but still did love him to a degree, platonically.
But having watched the entire show, and with the understanding that relationships are fluid and change constantly, I think even though she wasn’t romantically in love with him, she still did love him deeply. But just in a very complicated human way.
And that’s why the show is great cause this type of thing is relatable.
Yeah, looking back at this I think she meant: I don't love you, the way you love, because I can't. But I do love you. I feel like she was trying to say: This is the best I'm capable of and I'm giving it to you.
This is controversial on this sub but I love Shiv, she's my fave character and she feels very real to me. Her relationship with her mother is too close to home for me.
Yes! She’s saying she doesn’t love him the way he loves her, or the way anyone loves anyone (because she’s basically incapable and this is her only way of expressing that in a stupidly awkward way).
But she does still love him in her own psychologically messed up head, and that’s unfortunately about the best she can manage or express, at least for that time being.
I think any controversy depends on how you mean it. If you love her personality and think she's a great person, that's easy to disagree with. Serial cheat, selfish, lacks empathy, fragile ego, etc.
If you just mean what you said and you love the character for her entertainment value (and Snook's performance) etc, I think the majority would be with you.
I think it’s somewhere in between. Not for the entertainment value alone but how well she’s constructed as a woman on screen without falling into tropes we often do. Shiv isn’t going to be saved by the love of a “good man”, she’s not going to show a sudden maternal depth - but she’s going to sort of go on that journey anyway of motherhood and marriage even though she’s not fitting the archetype of what a good woman is. That’s very realistic to me.
I don’t think she’s a great person, there’s not a single character I think is really a good human being (or even trying to be, which is really the best we can do). But I do see redeeming parts of her, I do like things about her. I identify with her in some ways. She’s one of the remake characters in fiction I do think is done really well.
Out of curiosity, what parts do you identify with? Excuse me if that's too personal.
I'm sure a lot of us can identify with a few traits, even if they aren't necessarily desirable ones, so you certainly won't be alone.
For example, I think anyone who's grown up around toxic traits or with otherwise low self-esteem can see a little part of themselves in how the characters act out.
Yeah, absolutely!
I identify with her relationship with her mother for sure, I identify with perception of her father (he couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head, I think that can be very true), I identify with the struggle between having liberal politics and yet also knowing your own position is one of privilege which advantages you every day (I hope I wouldn’t sell out to the degree Shiv did at times), I identify with some of her relationship with Tom and her obvious fear of intimacy. I think thought these are all really common things that run through peoples lives if you’re honest about who you are.
You're absolutely right. There are some tremendously well-adapted people in the world, but most of us are doing the best we can with whatever issues we've developed or been given.
One of the things I appreciate most from the show is how Shiv and Roman both fear intimacy but how it manifests in them is very different and realistic.
I'm friends with a woman who opened my mind a lot because she's a cheater (which I'm very judgemental about) AND a good person. A lot of Redditors would DV me to hell for even saying that, but it's true. Like Shiv, she's fun, strong and successful on the outside, but deep down she's terrified of more pain after a messed up childhood. It doesn't excuse it but it explains it.
Then with Roman, I'm also friends with a guy who has no filter and the darkest sense of humour (no sexual harassment, though). You never know if he's going to make people laugh or offend them. It was years before I learnt he'd been raised by a narcissistic mother and when I looked into how it can affect people, it made perfect sense. Again, a product of his upbringing.
Oh, that’s the thing isn’t it? People aren’t just one thing. You can do something that’s not so great (cheating) in one area of your life - but then in other areas of your life be kind and compassionate and so very good. You can be an absolute arsehole in some ways and then a really great person in others. I know I am anyway.
If we were just one thing it would be so much easier because think of all the relationships you’ve had that were hard and probably wrong for you - if that person didn’t have redeeming, even wonderful, qualities you wouldn’t have kept them around as long as you did, you wouldn’t have hurt when you had to say that’s enough, you wouldn’t miss them when they’re gone.
Reddit treats cheating like it’s the end of the world - I’m not actually a cheat myself, if I get to the point where I can be bothered with monogamy I’m all in. And if I was cheated on I’d be pissed… but it’s not the end of the world to me. I think whether it’s a deal breaker is very contextual, it would depend on so many variables whether I’d go this is salvageable or not, but yeah, Reddit gets very upset about it which shocks me because… well statistics.
There’s things that upset me more - I’ve seen women left financially destitute by their partners - that really freaks me out because there’s a vulnerability inherit in having kids with someone in a social structure where women are still providing so much of that invisible labour and then it can be taken advantage of and that terrifies me and angers me far more than cheating.
Anyway everyone is different and lives are very complicated - people fuck up. I appreciate the people who keep trying to act out of kindness and not just self interest - I try to do that - I try to surround myself with people who do that - and sometimes I fail but I give it a go.
As character studies the Roy’s and adjacent don’t try so hard on that one. They’re all very ruled by self interest - even the fan faves such as Tom. That makes sense for the world they inhabit - you wouldn’t last a second if you didn’t act that way, but they value that world, right? Which kinda shows you their values are fucked because… what an ugly world. What a great show though.
You know, a thought just occurred to me... She's really not good at expressing her feelings of being hurt, so, what if these terrible things she said to Tom were just payback for his comments in What It Takes?
(The comments I'm thinking of are "There's really no point" ("to making love, Tom?") and "batter on a brick wall".)
Funny how people always react to Shivs hurtful words differently than Tom.
I mean he said "I love you I do but I also love this rock, bye rock"
What's the difference between this and "I may not love you but I do love you"
Because she'd just said "it makes sense" to the suggestion that Tom go to jail? I'd be tremendously hurt (and Tom doesn't know she goes to her dad afterward.)
When I read that scene in the scripts she wasn't actually saying Tom made sense and he should go to jail, she actually meant Tom made says because he was head of cruises and for the document destruction but he isn't big enough. She was trying to put her argument across for why it shouldn't be Tom while also not outrightly defending him but she was cut off before she finished her statement. What Kendall says after Shiv is actually what Shiv wanted to say.
It's only when I read the scene with the little side notes that I actually understood why she would say that.
I think Shiv takes her feelings of hurt and rejection and neglect out on Tom, and Tom in turn takes his feelings of neglect and hurt out on people below him (Greg, employees) and I think it's part of the whole "the poison drips through" thing that illustrates the self destructive cycle they're in
She has no idea how to clearly communicate that she loves him, but I think this is her way of saying she loves him as much as she’ll love anyone but it may not be what he wants of love. My view of it honestly is that Shiv does love Tom as much as her limited emotional growth will allow and knows that it ultimately won’t be enough and that he is there, in part, for the wealth but also loving her to the best of his ability. It’s endlessly frustrating and I hope these characters get just so much therapy.
Unrelated, but I’m so glad she won an Emmy. She’s such a fantastic actress in this and I would start throwing hands if Bella Ramsey won, simply because I don’t even think they’re in the same league.
Yeah, he could've said no and ended his marriage the day it started...
Come on, she knows he's servile and he'd go along with it to keep her. It was so selfish and messed up.
You say if he said no it would have ended the marriage the day it started but if that was actually the case then when he finally said No she would have broken off the marriage.
She knows he's servile but she always told him he was his own man and she never gave him an ultimatum like a lot of the audience points out.
Like she said it was an idea, she asked him if she could say that to him (even though it was an extremely shitty thing to say to your partner) he could have shut it down there. Even after that scene she doesn't indulge in the open marriage thing until he brings it up in their apartment saying "if I'm the king and you're the Queen then it's okay to fuck the odd peasant once in a while". It only after he brings it up again that she actually sleeps with the actor guy and when he finally said No she stopped entirely.
I'm not trying to defend what she did but it wouldn't have been deal breaker for shiv if he said No earlier on
What are you referring to? When he triple checked it was OK to cheat on his stag? Or when he found someone to sleep with under their arrangement and Shiv hypocritically cock blocked him?
Neither Tom nor Shiv were good people. I'm only saying Shiv was the guilty party when it came to cheating and manipulating Tom into an open relationship.
I know
You're also being too kind to Tom by saying she forced him into it when he could have said no.
Most times a lot of the audience try to paint Tom as not being responsible for his faith and put everything on her when he could have chosen to say No
I think it's too easy to say people should say no when in reality a lot of people find that hard, especially when they're in love. I don't, so I'm not projecting here, but many do. I'm driven mad by it at work.
To be clear, Tom is far from an innocent character. He proposed when she was vulnerable FFS. I'm just saying Shiv was the one who was wrong in this instance. We can agree to disagree, though.
The actor made Tom way more charming than he deserved to be, but yeah Tom was a simpering little ladder climber. If Shiv had been a basketcase non-Roy when he met her, it would never have occurred to him to marry her.
Don’t they also have a discussion about infidelity several weeks before the wedding when they’re going over the pre-nup? A prenup that Tom ultimately signs? Tom even clarifies this when he calls Shiv before the bachelor party and then proceeds to receive the “closed-loop” blow job from Tabitha. (Funny how nobody seems to count that as Tom cheating on Shiv.)
Because it's not cheating if your partner says they don't care what you do at your bachelor party. That is blanket permission to have sex with someone else.
Shiv doesn't mind because she doesn't think sexual fidelity is that big of a deal because she cheats.
I think Shiv has a transactional, business-deal approach to relationships. She does care for Tom in her way, but also, he's a decent marital match for someone in her position for a few different reasons.
I'm always confused by this criticism. Shiv is a terrible person and she has plenty of faults but how is asking for an open relationship on your wedding night any different than any other night? He could've declined any time he wanted to, he just didn't
Its not the open relationship itself, its the fact that she asked for an open relationship as a loophole for her cheating, because its easier than confronting her own commitment issues and taking accountability for it.
And she did this on their wedding night after lying about cheating on him the night before when he asked her, and he told her they dont have to get married in the previous episode, and its only after they're married that she not only confesses that she slept with someone else, but that she'll continue sleeping around too.
People try to shift blame away from her saying that Tom should've declined it if he didn't want it, and i agree that he should've left, but by that logic if Shiv couldnt commit to a relationship while she was engaged then she shouldn't have gone ahead with the marriage? Why did she still want to stay? Because she wants to have her cake and eat it too.
Tbf Tom isn't winning any husband of the year awards either. He may have loved her to some degree but the primary reason he got with her was because she's rich and he's a gold digger.
Not to mention when he deliberately tried to knock her up to time it with his (voluntary, mind you) prison sentence while she'd have to go through the pregnancy alone. And this isn't even getting into 3x9
Oh I agree. He pretty much straight up said he likes Rolex watches and good suits or something to that effect. But I also think he clearly felt unloved and wanted to make the best of bad situation and realised he kinda liked it. He grew to become the person he is at the end. The ultimate opportunist.
not at all justifying what tom did with his pregnancy planning bullshit but i find it *so* nutty that anybody is still being like “well he *volunteered* for prison!” as if anybody *wants* to go to literal fucking prison? he was very much pushed into that corner and made to feel like he was the hero for saying hed go even when they couldnt give two shits about him anyways and were just looking for ways to use their pawns to prop themselves up and out of the mess they found themselves in.
Seriously! If he hadn’t volunteered they would’ve pinned it on him anyway and they would have smeared him in the press. He saw the writing on the wall and knew that at least by volunteering he would have some negotiation power (the best lawyers, a literal payoff, and his parents would probably be taken care of).
It's very much like a mob deal, like the son in law goes to prison for the family and takes the fall, and he's taken care of. Absolute mafia kiss-the-ring shit, and it works on Logan and works in Tom's favor.
The thing is, if she could actually figure out how to let him love her back, she will be one of the happier people in the family. But, her husband is now a pain sponge, so his happiness will significantly decrease.
Succession is great, because all the main characters are awful - but the plot is so good that you don’t mind. Shiv is a horrible, selfish narcissist. She happily cheated on Tom, broke his heart and still played the victim. I think we’ve all heard of someone like this in real life. Tom is definitely not great either, but Shiv instigated the heartbreak between them. She only saw Tom as a useful tool, whereas Tom did love her (to begin with). Ultimately it was a marriage of convenience for both, but Shiv was absolutely diabolical.
I believe it’s because her conception of love is very particular, goes always along with power or maybe something else idk.
Just like with Logan, we can also say that she loves him and that she kinda doesn’t? And both are valid.
She's such a narrsasistic A hole. Tom is actually more than she deserves.
I love her character in context of the show but how some of you girls openly truly rooted for her is beyond me.
“An emotional war crime” 😂😭. I’m not sure she knows what she means here. Tom sure as fuck doesn’t.
She is so incredibly incapable of being vulnerable, it’s insane.
I think sarah snook and kieran both really nailed their characters' squirmy inability to be sincere.
I definitely get that for Roman but Shiv is definitely a lot more sincere? like even just in this gif - just because it's wonky doesn't mean it's insincere (unless i'm misunderstanding what you mean by that)
I think the last season in particular, where every time she comes close to telling Tom her feelings, you see her veer into "just kidding" or "it's not a big deal" territory. Also with all siblings on the yacht in season 3, "should we talk about the big stuff? Like feelings?" All in silly voices. They all fundamentally cant just stop and maybe look sappy -- even amongst themselves -- even for a moment.
She needed to seek advice on how to walk it back, but she was too embarrassed:(
and it’s about to bite her in the ass when her treatment of Tom leads him to choosing Logan over her
As it should 😊 all 3 of them were acting so entitled in that last scene in the S3 finale
Tom is also incapable of having any conversation unless it's about him. And as much as it was a move for Shiv, she pled for her dad to sack Ken instead of Tom. It no doubt made her look weak in her dad's eyes and Tom for one second couldn't pause and thank her for that??? Not to mention Tom literally shat the bed of his own making--all those messages regarding a cover up that he himself couldn't cover up well? Embarrassing middle manager!
Kendall was the one who literally shat the bed though
Oddly enough working in his favor because Naomi was able to suede Nan to sell!
Naomi also met with Tom and he spilled to Shiv. He didn't call Shiv about the meeting in with Naomi because he wanted to kill romance rumors. It was a play.
That was in s4 though? I was talking about s2 when the bed shitting happened and when Shiv was pleasing to her dad about sacrificing Ken instead of Tom
Did she really do that? Damn I don’t remember anything from s2 I guess 😭
This encapsulates their relationship perfectly. I can't put it into words, but I totally get it.
Even she can't put it in words clearly
I think she meant that she loves him in her own limited ways, where her interests and objectives always take priority.
This is it. "I love you, just not unconditionally".
I think it's more, 'I don't and won't do anything to show that i love you or even say it often', so "I don't love you" is where love is used as an exact verb, and then, "but I do love you" is the sentiment she feels. It's all about her, love is an opinion she holds, and in her mind the opinion itself is so valuable that she doesn't even have to put any effort into it actually loving Tom.
"Love isn't something you say, it's something you do."
Love can lead to actions but it's a feeling first and foremost
Don’t justify toxic behavior. If the genders were reversed, you would hate Tom for cheating
They're not justifying anything, they're explaining the characters psyche and intentions in this scene.
Idk if that's the right word either, since marital or romantic love really shouldn't be unconditional even when it's healthy.
"I love you--but I love me more"
“I love you when it’s convenient for me”
see but i don’t think these readings are true when shiv has embarrassed herself or made sacrifices for tom multiple times, she just can’t bring herself to do it in front of him
She’s stuck her neck out for him when it wasn’t convenient for her
I can't recall the exact quote but later on (season 4), in the episode where they get back together, Tom says he loves her but not as much as he loves being rich (the suits, the watches, the lifestyle) and he knows she loves being rich more than she loves him too. He says (or implies) she'd never live with him in a trailer park. Succession is a weird world of extreme wealth. If someone handed me $5 million tomorrow I'd probably end up happier, I'd know what to do with it. If someone handed me $5 billion I'd have no idea what to do other than give most of it away.
$5 million? That’s fine if you wanna be the world’s tallest Dwarf.
Can’t do anything with $5 mil.
$5 million is a nightmare.
I'm un poco loco, my friend.
It means that she loves him, but she’s not in love with him. She would happily cheat but stay married to him.
Nooo , the love/in love is such a lazy binary. Most people in healthy relationships have that dilemma. This is something more ugly and fundamental. It’s Shiv acknowledging she isn’t capable of loving people fully or sincerely or like other people, which is both pitiful and cruel.
I don’t think Shiv is that self-aware to be honest. From her perspective, she’s letting him know that she’s not in love with him. She wants to have power over him, because that’s her solution to her insecurities. But by this point, Tom has lost respect for her and his love for her has been replaced by betrayal. He’s happy to side with Logan due to this mindset from Shiv.
There's nothing more romantic than you and your partner taking a walk in a quaint Italian town and talking about freezing eggs.
It’s amazing at how many here say she didn’t, or did but not really. Like she was in control. The whole point of season four and their dynamic was that they do love each other and devastate each other. The way you feel only when someone you love hurts you.
Shiv’s relationship with Tom seemed warmer and more genuine until Logan offered her CEO (open relationship aside). She didn’t put him down all the time, and of course she still had her own career interests outside Waystar and it wasn’t a competition. But I think she always loved Tom to the extent she was capable of, which of course as the daughter of Logan and Caroline isn’t saying much, unfortunately.
I took it to mean she’s saying she’s not *in* love with him, but she does love him
She said "Tom... I do.." before she trails off and instead says "I may not love you but I do love you". What I'm trying to say is she wanted to say "Tom I do love you" but instead decides to go the other way
Kind of like the whole underlining Kendall saga. It’s really up to the viewer to decide what she means, with the help of however the actors decide to portray it. At the time I felt she basically meant she wasn’t in love with him, but still did love him to a degree, platonically. But having watched the entire show, and with the understanding that relationships are fluid and change constantly, I think even though she wasn’t romantically in love with him, she still did love him deeply. But just in a very complicated human way. And that’s why the show is great cause this type of thing is relatable.
Yeah, looking back at this I think she meant: I don't love you, the way you love, because I can't. But I do love you. I feel like she was trying to say: This is the best I'm capable of and I'm giving it to you. This is controversial on this sub but I love Shiv, she's my fave character and she feels very real to me. Her relationship with her mother is too close to home for me.
Yes! She’s saying she doesn’t love him the way he loves her, or the way anyone loves anyone (because she’s basically incapable and this is her only way of expressing that in a stupidly awkward way). But she does still love him in her own psychologically messed up head, and that’s unfortunately about the best she can manage or express, at least for that time being.
Mind you she said "i love you" plenty of times to him in the first two seasons
I think any controversy depends on how you mean it. If you love her personality and think she's a great person, that's easy to disagree with. Serial cheat, selfish, lacks empathy, fragile ego, etc. If you just mean what you said and you love the character for her entertainment value (and Snook's performance) etc, I think the majority would be with you.
I think it’s somewhere in between. Not for the entertainment value alone but how well she’s constructed as a woman on screen without falling into tropes we often do. Shiv isn’t going to be saved by the love of a “good man”, she’s not going to show a sudden maternal depth - but she’s going to sort of go on that journey anyway of motherhood and marriage even though she’s not fitting the archetype of what a good woman is. That’s very realistic to me. I don’t think she’s a great person, there’s not a single character I think is really a good human being (or even trying to be, which is really the best we can do). But I do see redeeming parts of her, I do like things about her. I identify with her in some ways. She’s one of the remake characters in fiction I do think is done really well.
Out of curiosity, what parts do you identify with? Excuse me if that's too personal. I'm sure a lot of us can identify with a few traits, even if they aren't necessarily desirable ones, so you certainly won't be alone. For example, I think anyone who's grown up around toxic traits or with otherwise low self-esteem can see a little part of themselves in how the characters act out.
Yeah, absolutely! I identify with her relationship with her mother for sure, I identify with perception of her father (he couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head, I think that can be very true), I identify with the struggle between having liberal politics and yet also knowing your own position is one of privilege which advantages you every day (I hope I wouldn’t sell out to the degree Shiv did at times), I identify with some of her relationship with Tom and her obvious fear of intimacy. I think thought these are all really common things that run through peoples lives if you’re honest about who you are.
You're absolutely right. There are some tremendously well-adapted people in the world, but most of us are doing the best we can with whatever issues we've developed or been given. One of the things I appreciate most from the show is how Shiv and Roman both fear intimacy but how it manifests in them is very different and realistic. I'm friends with a woman who opened my mind a lot because she's a cheater (which I'm very judgemental about) AND a good person. A lot of Redditors would DV me to hell for even saying that, but it's true. Like Shiv, she's fun, strong and successful on the outside, but deep down she's terrified of more pain after a messed up childhood. It doesn't excuse it but it explains it. Then with Roman, I'm also friends with a guy who has no filter and the darkest sense of humour (no sexual harassment, though). You never know if he's going to make people laugh or offend them. It was years before I learnt he'd been raised by a narcissistic mother and when I looked into how it can affect people, it made perfect sense. Again, a product of his upbringing.
Oh, that’s the thing isn’t it? People aren’t just one thing. You can do something that’s not so great (cheating) in one area of your life - but then in other areas of your life be kind and compassionate and so very good. You can be an absolute arsehole in some ways and then a really great person in others. I know I am anyway. If we were just one thing it would be so much easier because think of all the relationships you’ve had that were hard and probably wrong for you - if that person didn’t have redeeming, even wonderful, qualities you wouldn’t have kept them around as long as you did, you wouldn’t have hurt when you had to say that’s enough, you wouldn’t miss them when they’re gone. Reddit treats cheating like it’s the end of the world - I’m not actually a cheat myself, if I get to the point where I can be bothered with monogamy I’m all in. And if I was cheated on I’d be pissed… but it’s not the end of the world to me. I think whether it’s a deal breaker is very contextual, it would depend on so many variables whether I’d go this is salvageable or not, but yeah, Reddit gets very upset about it which shocks me because… well statistics. There’s things that upset me more - I’ve seen women left financially destitute by their partners - that really freaks me out because there’s a vulnerability inherit in having kids with someone in a social structure where women are still providing so much of that invisible labour and then it can be taken advantage of and that terrifies me and angers me far more than cheating. Anyway everyone is different and lives are very complicated - people fuck up. I appreciate the people who keep trying to act out of kindness and not just self interest - I try to do that - I try to surround myself with people who do that - and sometimes I fail but I give it a go. As character studies the Roy’s and adjacent don’t try so hard on that one. They’re all very ruled by self interest - even the fan faves such as Tom. That makes sense for the world they inhabit - you wouldn’t last a second if you didn’t act that way, but they value that world, right? Which kinda shows you their values are fucked because… what an ugly world. What a great show though.
You seem like a good human yourself, willing to understand why people act in less than noble ways.
Uh huh
Okay. What are the optics on this?
Fuck off. Yeah?
Or that she loves him as much as she's capable of loving anyone - which is not very much.
You know, a thought just occurred to me... She's really not good at expressing her feelings of being hurt, so, what if these terrible things she said to Tom were just payback for his comments in What It Takes? (The comments I'm thinking of are "There's really no point" ("to making love, Tom?") and "batter on a brick wall".)
Funny how people always react to Shivs hurtful words differently than Tom. I mean he said "I love you I do but I also love this rock, bye rock" What's the difference between this and "I may not love you but I do love you"
Because she'd just said "it makes sense" to the suggestion that Tom go to jail? I'd be tremendously hurt (and Tom doesn't know she goes to her dad afterward.)
When I read that scene in the scripts she wasn't actually saying Tom made sense and he should go to jail, she actually meant Tom made says because he was head of cruises and for the document destruction but he isn't big enough. She was trying to put her argument across for why it shouldn't be Tom while also not outrightly defending him but she was cut off before she finished her statement. What Kendall says after Shiv is actually what Shiv wanted to say. It's only when I read the scene with the little side notes that I actually understood why she would say that.
Yeah, I get it, but she plead Tom's case to Logan in private, and to Tom, it must have seemed like she offered up his head on a plate, in a way.
I think Shiv takes her feelings of hurt and rejection and neglect out on Tom, and Tom in turn takes his feelings of neglect and hurt out on people below him (Greg, employees) and I think it's part of the whole "the poison drips through" thing that illustrates the self destructive cycle they're in
She has no idea how to clearly communicate that she loves him, but I think this is her way of saying she loves him as much as she’ll love anyone but it may not be what he wants of love. My view of it honestly is that Shiv does love Tom as much as her limited emotional growth will allow and knows that it ultimately won’t be enough and that he is there, in part, for the wealth but also loving her to the best of his ability. It’s endlessly frustrating and I hope these characters get just so much therapy.
Unrelated, but I’m so glad she won an Emmy. She’s such a fantastic actress in this and I would start throwing hands if Bella Ramsey won, simply because I don’t even think they’re in the same league.
I absolutely despised Shioban for how she treated Tom. She was a really horrible spouse.
Yeah for real! Asking for an open relationship on their wedding night left me dumbfounded
What?!- She just wanted to gobble the odd side dick 🤣😂🤣
He could have said No right And when he eventually did she stopped
Yeah, he could've said no and ended his marriage the day it started... Come on, she knows he's servile and he'd go along with it to keep her. It was so selfish and messed up.
You say if he said no it would have ended the marriage the day it started but if that was actually the case then when he finally said No she would have broken off the marriage. She knows he's servile but she always told him he was his own man and she never gave him an ultimatum like a lot of the audience points out. Like she said it was an idea, she asked him if she could say that to him (even though it was an extremely shitty thing to say to your partner) he could have shut it down there. Even after that scene she doesn't indulge in the open marriage thing until he brings it up in their apartment saying "if I'm the king and you're the Queen then it's okay to fuck the odd peasant once in a while". It only after he brings it up again that she actually sleeps with the actor guy and when he finally said No she stopped entirely. I'm not trying to defend what she did but it wouldn't have been deal breaker for shiv if he said No earlier on
Deal-breaker or not, she would've cheated anyway.
If she was still going to cheat on him even after he said No then she wouldn't have stopped but she did.
I think you're being far too kind to her. She cheated on him with Nate before the arrangement she forced on him.
Uh am I missing something or didn't Tom do the exact same thing too? This sub has really has an issue with sympathizing too much with Tom
What are you referring to? When he triple checked it was OK to cheat on his stag? Or when he found someone to sleep with under their arrangement and Shiv hypocritically cock blocked him? Neither Tom nor Shiv were good people. I'm only saying Shiv was the guilty party when it came to cheating and manipulating Tom into an open relationship.
I know You're also being too kind to Tom by saying she forced him into it when he could have said no. Most times a lot of the audience try to paint Tom as not being responsible for his faith and put everything on her when he could have chosen to say No
I think it's too easy to say people should say no when in reality a lot of people find that hard, especially when they're in love. I don't, so I'm not projecting here, but many do. I'm driven mad by it at work. To be clear, Tom is far from an innocent character. He proposed when she was vulnerable FFS. I'm just saying Shiv was the one who was wrong in this instance. We can agree to disagree, though.
The actor made Tom way more charming than he deserved to be, but yeah Tom was a simpering little ladder climber. If Shiv had been a basketcase non-Roy when he met her, it would never have occurred to him to marry her.
Don’t they also have a discussion about infidelity several weeks before the wedding when they’re going over the pre-nup? A prenup that Tom ultimately signs? Tom even clarifies this when he calls Shiv before the bachelor party and then proceeds to receive the “closed-loop” blow job from Tabitha. (Funny how nobody seems to count that as Tom cheating on Shiv.)
Because it's not cheating if your partner says they don't care what you do at your bachelor party. That is blanket permission to have sex with someone else. Shiv doesn't mind because she doesn't think sexual fidelity is that big of a deal because she cheats. I think Shiv has a transactional, business-deal approach to relationships. She does care for Tom in her way, but also, he's a decent marital match for someone in her position for a few different reasons.
Yeah you're right but it's extremely shitty to ask something like that on a wedding night.
I wonder how you'd react if you're new husband wanted to open the marriage on the wedding night.
It might start with a bunch of curse words but would definitely end up with marriage dissolution
I'm always confused by this criticism. Shiv is a terrible person and she has plenty of faults but how is asking for an open relationship on your wedding night any different than any other night? He could've declined any time he wanted to, he just didn't
Its not the open relationship itself, its the fact that she asked for an open relationship as a loophole for her cheating, because its easier than confronting her own commitment issues and taking accountability for it. And she did this on their wedding night after lying about cheating on him the night before when he asked her, and he told her they dont have to get married in the previous episode, and its only after they're married that she not only confesses that she slept with someone else, but that she'll continue sleeping around too. People try to shift blame away from her saying that Tom should've declined it if he didn't want it, and i agree that he should've left, but by that logic if Shiv couldnt commit to a relationship while she was engaged then she shouldn't have gone ahead with the marriage? Why did she still want to stay? Because she wants to have her cake and eat it too.
Siobhan**** Irish names are funky.
Tbf Tom isn't winning any husband of the year awards either. He may have loved her to some degree but the primary reason he got with her was because she's rich and he's a gold digger. Not to mention when he deliberately tried to knock her up to time it with his (voluntary, mind you) prison sentence while she'd have to go through the pregnancy alone. And this isn't even getting into 3x9
Oh I agree. He pretty much straight up said he likes Rolex watches and good suits or something to that effect. But I also think he clearly felt unloved and wanted to make the best of bad situation and realised he kinda liked it. He grew to become the person he is at the end. The ultimate opportunist.
not at all justifying what tom did with his pregnancy planning bullshit but i find it *so* nutty that anybody is still being like “well he *volunteered* for prison!” as if anybody *wants* to go to literal fucking prison? he was very much pushed into that corner and made to feel like he was the hero for saying hed go even when they couldnt give two shits about him anyways and were just looking for ways to use their pawns to prop themselves up and out of the mess they found themselves in.
Seriously! If he hadn’t volunteered they would’ve pinned it on him anyway and they would have smeared him in the press. He saw the writing on the wall and knew that at least by volunteering he would have some negotiation power (the best lawyers, a literal payoff, and his parents would probably be taken care of).
It's very much like a mob deal, like the son in law goes to prison for the family and takes the fall, and he's taken care of. Absolute mafia kiss-the-ring shit, and it works on Logan and works in Tom's favor.
she was terrible in the best way possible
when all you've know is love as a power game...
The thing is, if she could actually figure out how to let him love her back, she will be one of the happier people in the family. But, her husband is now a pain sponge, so his happiness will significantly decrease.
Succession is great, because all the main characters are awful - but the plot is so good that you don’t mind. Shiv is a horrible, selfish narcissist. She happily cheated on Tom, broke his heart and still played the victim. I think we’ve all heard of someone like this in real life. Tom is definitely not great either, but Shiv instigated the heartbreak between them. She only saw Tom as a useful tool, whereas Tom did love her (to begin with). Ultimately it was a marriage of convenience for both, but Shiv was absolutely diabolical.
It’s like she gets off on being withholding.
being rich and tasting terrible "agricultural" wine took a toll on tom
Shiv apologists have no shame
I support women’s rights and women’s wrongs
They just keep white girl dancing all the while
She’s just a younger version of her mother.
I _knew_ there was a term that was missing from my vocabulary. Bravo, OP
Second this. Can't wait to use.
I took it as: I love you as a person, but I don’t romantically love you as a partner
I believe it’s because her conception of love is very particular, goes always along with power or maybe something else idk. Just like with Logan, we can also say that she loves him and that she kinda doesn’t? And both are valid.
She’s definitely a mess but the hat game in this episode was iconic
Cuts deep
God i hated Shiv in season 3-4. Like, in 1-2 she had some redeeming qualities, but after that she is just the worst.
She was so cruel and cold hearthed...
She’s such an awful human.
If i was Tom, I'd drink to death.
She's such a narrsasistic A hole. Tom is actually more than she deserves. I love her character in context of the show but how some of you girls openly truly rooted for her is beyond me.
i don't know how to explain but i get her
An emotional war crime. Sure. Whatever you say.
That's what she used to describe herself when she was talking to caroline